: Joe Touch ; Lucy yong ; Brian E
Carpenter ; int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
Hi Joe,
The problem is, you continue to imply that there are problems. Unless you are
willing
to read the document, cut it out.
About use cases, I
.com>; Brian E Carpenter
<mailto:brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com>;
int-area@ietf.org<mailto:int-area@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
Fred,
On 12/9/2016 4:25 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
Hi Joe,
I read your document and, for
ook at the document, because I
> think you
>
> will find the answers to your questions there.
>
>
>
> Thanks - Fred
>
>
>
> *From:*Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> *Sent:* Friday, December 09, 2016 8:53 PM
> *To:* Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E
8:53 PM
To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
; Brian E Carpenter ;
int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
Fred,
On 12/9/2016 4:25 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
Hi Joe,
I read your document and, for the applications I am concerned with, I
Fred,
On 12/9/2016 4:25 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
>
>
> I read your document and, for the applications I am concerned with, I
> still
>
> think what I am doing is the better approach. One thing that you may not
>
> have gathered is that the AERO interface does not maintain a
> re
fred.l.temp...@boeing.com
From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 2:48 PM
To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
; Brian E Carpenter ;
int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
On 12/6/2016 2:43 PM, Templin
in
IP-over-(foo) documents. AERO is an IP-over-(foo) document.
Thanks - Fred
From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 3:43 PM
To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
; Brian E Carpenter ;
int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
draft-yong-intarea-inter-sit
On 12/6/2016 3:39 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
>
>
> The areas I described are very much wrapped around mobility, and for AERO
>
> mobility is handled through dynamic neighbor cache updates over the AERO
>
> interface. It is very important that these mobility events do not get
> pro
yong
; Brian E Carpenter ;
int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
On 12/6/2016 2:43 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
Hi Joe,
I am looking at multilink nodes like manned aircraft and unmanned aerial
vehicles that
may have many active
On 12/6/2016 2:43 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
>
>
>
> I am looking at multilink nodes like manned aircraft and unmanned
> aerial vehicles that
>
> may have many active aviation data links, e.g., SATCOM, LDACS, 4G,
> AeroMACS etc.
>
> The links will be either available or unavailable
0) to the IP layer.
Thanks - Fred
From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 1:59 PM
To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
; Brian E Carpenter ;
int-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
On 12/6/2016 1:
On 12/6/2016 1:46 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>> If there are multiple interfaces, why would it pick aero0? And what
>> would its QoS be? It can't have a single value, so the main IP
>> forwarding code can't decide between aero0 and other interfaces.
> The IP forwarding table has an entry such as:
On 12/6/2016 1:46 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> AERO mobility management and route optimization are better than existing
> approaches. That is why the aviation and corporate mobile device communities
> are looking at it.
Perhaps, but by putting all the mechanisms in a single system you're
saying "
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 1:28 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 12:59 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
[mailto:to...@isi.edu]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 11:11 AM
>>>> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
>>>> ; Brian E Carpenter
>>>> ; int-area@ietf.org
>>>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
>>>> draft-yong-intare
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 11:36 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
a@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
>> draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> First, we are violently agreeing that subnet redirect works only where
>> source addresses cannot be spoofed. The problem is that this is not t
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2016 11:11 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Monday, December 05, 2016 2:47 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
g
>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
>> draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
>>
>> Hi, Fred,
>>
>>
>> On 12/1/2016 12:52 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>>> Hi Joe,
>>> ...
>>> Can you say why you think redirecting an
Hi, Fred,
On 12/1/2016 12:52 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> ...
> Can you say why you think redirecting an entire subnet is potentially more
> problematic (noting that RFC6706 has been published since 2012 and so the
> notion of subnet redirection is already well known)?
6706 is within th
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 11:47 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
On 12/1/2016 11:27 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> Hi Joe,
>
>> ...
>>> RFC6706 already specifies how these Redirects work and is agnostic to the
>>> link type. AERO(bis) tells how they work on AERO links through use of the
>>> IPv6 ND protocol on a specific link type.
>> My point is that the IPv6 N
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 11:08 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
a@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
>> draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
>>
>> Hi, Fred,
>>
>> To wrap up:
>>
>> - Subnet Redirects appear to rely on AERO-specific mechanisms, so would
>> not be of more general releva
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 10:21 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
Hi, Fred,
To wrap up:
- Subnet Redirects appear to rely on AERO-specific mechanisms, so would
not be of more general relevance to a bis doc IMO
- multiple link addresses are already part of the Ethernet spec and
already handled by most IP over Ethernet implementations (and TOS
marking correlatio
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 8:33 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
On 12/1/2016 8:20 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> ,,,
>>> It is the same as the way the Redirect function works on physical links,
>>> except
>>> that the Redirect applies to an entire network prefix and not just a
>>> singleton
>>> address. This has already been published in RFC6706, and what we
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 4:52 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
a@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
>> draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
>>
>> Hi, Fred (et al.),
>>
>>
>> On 11/30/2016 12:51 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>>> Hi Joe,
>>> ...
>>> I didn't mention route
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 2:32 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
Hi, Fred (et al.),
On 11/30/2016 12:51 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> Hi Joe,
> ...
> I didn't mention route optimization. With AERO, route optimization is what
> happens
> when the tunnel ingress switches from an egress that is on a suboptimal path
> to a
> different egress that is on a better p
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:04 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
On 11/30/2016 11:41 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> It is about more than just mobility - security, traffic engineering, routing
> control, VPN, and other aspects. What really makes AERO intarea-like
> is the fact that it is modeled as an NBMA link-layer for IP and can be
> considered an "IP-over-fo
Hi Joe,
> -Original Message-
> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 11:33 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-
ge-
>> From: Joe Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 10:49 AM
>> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
>> ; Brian E Carpenter
>> ; int-area@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
>> draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tu
Touch [mailto:to...@isi.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 10:49 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L ; Lucy yong
> ; Brian E Carpenter
> ; int-area@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Some thoughts on
> draft-yong-intarea-inter-sites-over-tunnels
>
> Hi, Fred, et al.,
>
&g
Hi, Fred, et al.,
On 11/30/2016 9:35 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> How would people feel about seeing draft-templin-aerolink become an intarea
> document?
In one sense, every IP over X tunnel proposal could be an INTAREA doc,
but the bigger question is "what problem is being solved" that is
speci
> I'm also quite unable to know how to position this proposal compared to
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-aerolink which has
> been in development for several years. They seem to tackle some of the same
> problems.
> [Lucy] In fact, Fred informed us about draft-templin-aerolink before
Hi, Tom,
On 11/30/2016 8:08 AM, Tom Herbert wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
>> Hi, Tom,
>>
>>
>> On 11/29/2016 12:56 PM, Tom Herbert wrote:
>>> This is why we like DTLS as opposed to IPsec, to the network this just
>>> looks like UDP which presumably is more palatable
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:31 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
> Hi, Tom,
>
>
> On 11/29/2016 12:56 PM, Tom Herbert wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
>>> Hi Brian,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/29/2016 11:43 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>
>>>
>> I also don't really understand
>> the
Lucy,
I think the key question is "what is this draft contributing".
IP tunnel specs exist. Creating a network out of IP tunnels is no more a
mystery than creating an IP network out of links. Using IP networking to
interconnect sites is also not new or difficult.
I don't think we need a "standar
Hi, Tom,
On 11/29/2016 12:56 PM, Tom Herbert wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
>> Hi Brian,
>>
>>
>> On 11/29/2016 11:43 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>
>>
> I also don't really understand
> the security model. There is some discussion of IPsec tunnels and RFC3
Hi Brian, Joe, and et al,
Thank you for the questions and comments. Please see inline below.
-Original Message-
From: Int-area [mailto:int-area-boun...@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2016 10:00 PM
To: int-area@ietf.org
Subject: [Int-area] Some thoughts
On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:04 PM, Joe Touch wrote:
> Hi Brian,
>
>
> On 11/29/2016 11:43 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Joe,
>>
>> On 29/11/2016 17:38, Joe Touch wrote:
>>> Hi, Brian,
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/28/2016 7:59 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
Hi,
My first question is not whether i
Hi Brian,
On 11/29/2016 11:43 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Joe,
>
> On 29/11/2016 17:38, Joe Touch wrote:
>> Hi, Brian,
>>
>>
>> On 11/28/2016 7:59 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> My first question is not whether it's a good idea to build an IP VPN over
>>> IP tunnels, because I'm
Joe,
On 29/11/2016 17:38, Joe Touch wrote:
> Hi, Brian,
>
>
> On 11/28/2016 7:59 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> My first question is not whether it's a good idea to build an IP VPN over
>> IP tunnels, because I'm sure it is. It is more whether we actually need
>> a BCP describing how
Hi, Brian,
On 11/28/2016 7:59 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My first question is not whether it's a good idea to build an IP VPN over
> IP tunnels, because I'm sure it is. It is more whether we actually need
> a BCP describing how to do it, rather than just, say, open-source code
> for a
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