Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby. On 12/9/08 8:16 PM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly. But it's fun to watch. Anyway, Rick, a few points: 1. I get paid to write Ruby, and I enjoy it more than I ever enjoyed writing Java. But, as Kit said, I also work with a lot of really cool, REALLY smart people. I worked with some really cool smart people when I was doing Java, but just a few of them, not a LOT of them. Smartness was the exception rather than the rule in standard java developers, in my experience. In Ruby it seems to be the opposite. I'm a biased troll, though... 2. I could care less what most developers in the world write (mostly outsourced/offshore/corporate maintenance drones I bet, but I can't back this up...). This is the nature of the adoption curve. 3. You've conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems. Ruby has tons of sweet, cutting-edge, actively maintained, frequently-released, supremely hackable open source tools, libraries, and frameworks, which is facilitated by things like RubyGems and widespread GitHub adoption. When those don't work for you for some reason, JRuby lets you plug in any proven, performant, scalable Java library. As I said, language preference and market share aside, don't you agree this is a compelling advantage of JRuby? Remember, I love you all. I just love to troll too :) -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
PHP developers are Cool and happy too but I am not accusing them of having made a good engineering decision. Attempting to divert the ruby/groovy/java war to pick on the kid in the corner who is not here to defend himself. If you really want to explore some of the differences in these languages you may enjoy the screencasts we did as part of my Masters Thesis. We wrote the same two web applications in 8 different programming languages. http://www.betterwebapp.commy personal non-comercial website with no agenda. There were MS guys, python guys, perl guys et al... on the project. would love some feedback. The conclusion... depends on your business drivers. Cool little ajax tool to test out. -Todd *** Todd R. Ellermann VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com Founder Webagogy.com Researcher Betterwebapp.com Personal: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 805-850-8044 cell *** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un-trollish in saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my assertion of the un-deadness of Java. Even though the list and group is still a JUG, there have been (at least a couple I remember) of in-person meetings where people have (unofficially?) agreed that non-Java stuff was fair game. Plus, JRuby, as a Sun-developed dynamic language for the Java Virtual Machine, is very on topic for a Java group. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby. You've [still] conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems [as opposed to Groovy]. -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has been my overwhelming experience that software engineers are very bad (for whatever reasons) at recognizing the hammer they are holding isn't the right one. I'd rather have a Golden Hammer than a Golden Salami... - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Yes. Chad. That is very cool. Jython does the same for Python libs. It is pretty cool. On 12/10/08 9:37 AM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby. You've [still] conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems [as opposed to Groovy]. -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff. Yes, but that part was essential to my goal of getting an interesting thread going on this mailing list ;) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Ic... I fell into your trap. At least I took Kit with me On 12/10/08 10:26 AM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff. Yes, but that part was essential to my goal of getting an interesting thread going on this mailing list ;) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
Ha. Sucka. I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a few assertions for a stance. I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are cool. The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even a debate. Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense to the Java is dead stick as well as your feeble attempt to start dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a webapp. But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. Though, giving in a second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of technology. Please don't bite again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves. On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. deploy/run/test not a problem mvn jetty:run Ok... I will bite, but just this once. When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications then I will drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing for the last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger than the entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby. For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I wanted Jython to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with Jython (a book that no one read). When you say Java is Dead it sounds a lot like Ruby has won. In terms of the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and Python. In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby has won in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with two left legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not won anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus impact in the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael Phelps. On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already be built on Spring). Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you would be all over it. Your point is moot. Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby. JRuby development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure what your point is. The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a fluke. Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al have a much better track record (although much smaller one). FWIW, Groovy was originally invented by James Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least. Well known fact and not disputed. Again Moot point. SpringSource could have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my point. Grails is tied to Groovy. The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below is the percentage of happy developers in both camps. I would assert, but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby devers than Java devers. Not only that - but, the issue of quality comes into play some where too. I won't provide an assertion here - but, it is a relative notion. Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and hated it. What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population per se. For example, there are people in the world who are quite content drinking their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet. Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the fence here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real value - developmental efficiency. There's no way Java can win - based on its code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle. Prompt mvn jetty:run Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick. Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of development. It will take its place in history next to (at this point I realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other group of people) Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity you'll be burdened with pure Java once again. This makes no sense. Why? I have written
Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get paid for something that I love to do. Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly. But it's fun to watch. Anyway, Rick, a few points: 1. I get paid to write Ruby, and I enjoy it more than I ever enjoyed writing Java. But, as Kit said, I also work with a lot of really cool, REALLY smart people. I worked with some really cool smart people when I was doing Java, but just a few of them, not a LOT of them. Smartness was the exception rather than the rule in standard java developers, in my experience. In Ruby it seems to be the opposite. I'm a biased troll, though... 2. I could care less what most developers in the world write (mostly outsourced/offshore/corporate maintenance drones I bet, but I can't back this up...). This is the nature of the adoption curve. 3. You've conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems. Ruby has tons of sweet, cutting-edge, actively maintained, frequently-released, supremely hackable open source tools, libraries, and frameworks, which is facilitated by things like RubyGems and widespread GitHub adoption. When those don't work for you for some reason, JRuby lets you plug in any proven, performant, scalable Java library. As I said, language preference and market share aside, don't you agree this is a compelling advantage of JRuby? Remember, I love you all. I just love to troll too :) -- Chad - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
