Ha.  Sucka.

I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a few assertions for a stance. I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are cool. The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even a debate.

Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix.

Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a webapp. But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. Though, giving in a second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of technology.

Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves.

On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote:

Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby.

deploy/run/test not a problem....

mvn jetty:run

Ok... I will bite, but just this once.

When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications then I will drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing for the last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger than the entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not
like Ruby.

For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get
paid for something that I love to do.

I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I wanted Jython to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with Jython (a
book that no one read).

When you say "Java is Dead" it sounds a lot like "Ruby has won". In terms of the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and Python. In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby has won in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with two left legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not won anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus impact in the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael Phelps.

On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already
be built on Spring).

Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you would
be all over it. Your point is moot.

Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby.  JRuby
development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure what
your point is.

The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little
influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a fluke. Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al have a
much better track record (although much smaller one).

FWIW, Groovy was originally "invented" by James
Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least.

Well known fact and not disputed. Again.... Moot point. SpringSource could have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my point.
Grails is tied to Groovy.

The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below
is the percentage of happy developers in both camps.  I would assert,
but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby
devers than Java devers.  Not only that - but, the issue of quality
comes into play some where too.  I won't provide an assertion here -
but, it is a relative notion.

Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and hated it. What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population per se. For example, there are people in the world who are quite content drinking
their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet.

Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the fence here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real value -
developmental efficiency.  There's no way Java can win - based on its
code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle.

Prompt> mvn jetty:run

Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick.
Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of
development. It will take its place in history next to.... (at this point I realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other group of

Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity you'll
be burdened with pure Java once again.

This makes no sense. Why? I have written large things in Groovy and did not
need to revert to Java. This is silliness. Moot point.

If for no other reason than Sun is a turd, Java is dead.

Unproven opinion, easily refuted with real evidence. Java is in no way dead.
It will fall out of favor eventually as all things do.

Ruby will be a never was. Java will one day be a former heavy weight
champion of the world.

sourcing Sun's version of the JVM and platform has done nothing for
ensuring its longevity.  Only said with a slight grin.

On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Richard Hightower wrote:

RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw
than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way
of your
"Java is dead" argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby
does not
seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero,
percentage of growth sky rockets, but.... Not enough.

BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead.



I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why
they did
not back Jruby in a similar manner. Hmmmm....

On 12/9/08 12:04 PM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:


Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9;
compatibility is good and getting better all the time.

Ok, troll time:

My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc, etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed
to "make people happy".  Most Rubyists - especially those with
experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.

As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language
(Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you
compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke

The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem
is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take
of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of both

Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

-- Chad

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a
while was out
performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still

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