Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un-trollish in
saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my
assertion of the un-deadness of Java.

Your evidence... "Ruby makes me happy and only cool people use Ruby". Wow...
Convincing. Sign me up, I really want to be cool and happy.

Or do you not know the definition of a troll. Let me sum it up for you. If
on a java mailing list, you say that Java is dead, then you are troll.

Let me repeat since you are so cool....

Saying that Java is dead on a Java list is the very definition of troll. Get
it. Look in the mirror. See that... Troll.

Comments below.... 

On 12/9/08 8:02 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ha.  Sucka.
> I'm no Ruby zealot.   You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a
> few assertions for a stance.

I don't think so. You made the assertion that Java was dead. Thus my
diatribe, which was on point.

> I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when
> it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care
> what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are
> cool.  

I am really cool. If you don't think so, just ask my mom.

> The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care
> who wins or loses.  I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even
> a debate.

No I don't. I am not the one declaring Ruby is dead. Kettle, pot black.

> Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense
> to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start
> dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix.

I never dissed you as I never said anything personal about you (at least not
anything bad with the exception of the troll comment but that was more a
clarification so as to identify what a troll is, i.e., you not me). Seems I
only talked about Ruby and you are the one who came back with personal

I never put "you" in my assertions as feeble at they were. :)

"I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be
paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not
like Ruby."

Notice the distinction. I am for you, but I don't like Ruby. I guess I am
not cool and hip. Oh well. I prefer well paid and well fed. Oh and I hate
Ruby as much as most Java developer hate VB.

> Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame.   Oh, only if ever thing were a
> webapp.  

I mostly work on webapps. Don't most Ruby developer's mostly work on
webapps? Are there a lot of Ruby desktop apps? What kind of apps are you
developing with Ruby? I mean I realize it is a general purpose language, but
isn't most of its growth tied to developing webapps? It is not like I went
completely off topic. Is it?

>But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most
> ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time.

Almost as ridiculous as saying "Java is Dead" when in 4 short months it grew
by more than the entire Ruby market.

> Though, giving in a
> second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature.  So,
> I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of
> technology.

Got it. Ruby is cool and Java is a freak of nature. At least, only I say
ridiculous things. Seems to be that I don't have a monopoly on ridiculous at
least not on this list.

> Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling.  Though
> I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves.

Yes. It is not like I am on a Ruby mailing list screaming how much I love
Java. Because that would be complete "drivelish-trolling".

It is not like I am on a Java list declaring that Java is dead. It is not
like I am such a troll for saying on a Java list that Java is not in fact

JRuby is cool. It should bring some stability to all the coolness and
happiness in the Ruby community.

I prefer Groovy to JRuby. I will admit this is a personal preference mostly
do to my hatred of Ruby. I also prefer Jython to Jruby mostly because I do
not like the Ruby syntax because I thought it was weak compare to Python
when I was as excited to Python as you now seem to be about Ruby.

Python has also seen some strong growth more so than Ruby not that is it a
contest or anything.

Basically as long as I can make any money doing anything else Ruby will
remain off my list.

> On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote:
>> Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby.
>> deploy/run/test not a problem....
>> mvn jetty:run
>> Ok... I will bite, but just this once.
>> When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications
>> then I will
>> drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing
>> for the
>> last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger
>> than the
>> entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you
>> can be
>> paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I
>> do not
>> like Ruby.
>> For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I
>> can get
>> paid for something that I love to do.
>> I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I
>> wanted Jython
>> to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with
>> Jython (a
>> book that no one read).
>> When you say "Java is Dead" it sounds a lot like "Ruby has won". In
>> terms of
>> the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and
>> Python.
>> In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby
>> has won
>> in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with
>> two left
>> legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not
>> won
>> anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus
>> impact in
>> the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael
>> Phelps.
>> On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already
>>> be built on Spring).
>> Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you
>> would
>> be all over it. Your point is moot.
>>> Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby.  JRuby
>>> development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure
>>> what
>>> your point is.
>> The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little
>> influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a
>> fluke.
>> Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al
>> have a
>> much better track record (although much smaller one).
>>> FWIW, Groovy was originally "invented" by James
>>> Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least.
>> Well known fact and not disputed. Again.... Moot point. SpringSource
>> could
>> have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my
>> point.
>> Grails is tied to Groovy.
>>> The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below
>>> is the percentage of happy developers in both camps.  I would assert,
>>> but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby
>>> devers than Java devers.  Not only that - but, the issue of quality
>>> comes into play some where too.  I won't provide an assertion here -
>>> but, it is a relative notion.
>> Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and
>> hated it.
>> What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population
>> per se.
>> For example, there are people in the world who are quite content
>> drinking
>> their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet.
>>> Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the
>>> fence
>>> here.  It is imperative that you can see past this to the real
>>> value -
>>> developmental efficiency.  There's no way Java can win - based on its
>>> code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle.
>> Prompt> mvn jetty:run
>> Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick.
>> Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of
>> development. It will take its place in history next to.... (at this
>> point I
>> realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other
>> group of
>> people....)
>>> Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity
>>> you'll
>>> be burdened with pure Java once again.
>> This makes no sense. Why? I have written large things in Groovy and
>> did not
>> need to revert to Java. This is silliness. Moot point.
>>> If for no other reason than Sun is a turd, Java is dead.
>> Unproven opinion, easily refuted with real evidence. Java is in no
>> way dead.
>> It will fall out of favor eventually as all things do.
>> Ruby will be a never was. Java will one day be a former heavy weight
>> champion of the world.
>>> Open
>>> sourcing Sun's version of the JVM and platform has done nothing for
>>> ensuring its longevity.  Only said with a slight grin.
>>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Richard Hightower wrote:
>>>> RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.
>>>> From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw
>>>> numbers)
>>>> than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way
>>>> of your
>>>> "Java is dead" argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby
>>>> does not
>>>> seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero,
>>>> percentage of growth sky rockets, but.... Not enough.
>>>> BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead.
>>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programming&l=
>>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+ruby&l=
>>>> I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why
>>>> they did
>>>> not back Jruby in a similar manner. Hmmmm....
>>>> On 12/9/08 12:04 PM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>> Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:
>>>>> http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-200
>>>>> 8/
>>>>> Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9;
>>>>> and
>>>>> compatibility is good and getting better all the time.
>>>>> Ok, troll time:
>>>>> My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
>>>>> benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
>>>>> execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment,
>>>>> etc,
>>>>> etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was
>>>>> designed
>>>>> to "make people happy".  Most Rubyists - especially those with
>>>>> experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.
>>>>> As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static
>>>>> language
>>>>> (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you
>>>>> really
>>>>> compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
>>>>> through.
>>>>> The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
>>>>> Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
>>>>> language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby
>>>>> ecosystem
>>>>> is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take
>>>>> advantage
>>>>> of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of
>>>>> both
>>>>> worlds?
>>>>> Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.
>>>>> -- Chad
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a
>>>>>> while was out
>>>>>> performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still
>>>>>> true.
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