Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un-trollish in saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my assertion of the un-deadness of Java.
Your evidence... "Ruby makes me happy and only cool people use Ruby". Wow... Convincing. Sign me up, I really want to be cool and happy. Or do you not know the definition of a troll. Let me sum it up for you. If on a java mailing list, you say that Java is dead, then you are troll. Let me repeat since you are so cool.... Saying that Java is dead on a Java list is the very definition of troll. Get it. Look in the mirror. See that... Troll. Comments below.... On 12/9/08 8:02 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ha. Sucka. > > I'm no Ruby zealot. You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a > few assertions for a stance. I don't think so. You made the assertion that Java was dead. Thus my diatribe, which was on point. > I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when > it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care > what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are > cool. I am really cool. If you don't think so, just ask my mom. > The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care > who wins or loses. I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even > a debate. No I don't. I am not the one declaring Ruby is dead. Kettle, pot black. > > Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense > to the "Java is dead" stick as well as your feeble attempt to start > dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix. I never dissed you as I never said anything personal about you (at least not anything bad with the exception of the troll comment but that was more a clarification so as to identify what a troll is, i.e., you not me). Seems I only talked about Ruby and you are the one who came back with personal attacks. I never put "you" in my assertions as feeble at they were. :) "I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not like Ruby." Notice the distinction. I am for you, but I don't like Ruby. I guess I am not cool and hip. Oh well. I prefer well paid and well fed. Oh and I hate Ruby as much as most Java developer hate VB. > > Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame. Oh, only if ever thing were a > webapp. I mostly work on webapps. Don't most Ruby developer's mostly work on webapps? Are there a lot of Ruby desktop apps? What kind of apps are you developing with Ruby? I mean I realize it is a general purpose language, but isn't most of its growth tied to developing webapps? It is not like I went completely off topic. Is it? >But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most > ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time. Almost as ridiculous as saying "Java is Dead" when in 4 short months it grew by more than the entire Ruby market. > Though, giving in a > second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature. So, > I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of > technology. Got it. Ruby is cool and Java is a freak of nature. At least, only I say ridiculous things. Seems to be that I don't have a monopoly on ridiculous at least not on this list. > > Please don't "bite" again...spare us your drivelish-trolling. Though > I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves. Yes. It is not like I am on a Ruby mailing list screaming how much I love Java. Because that would be complete "drivelish-trolling". It is not like I am on a Java list declaring that Java is dead. It is not like I am such a troll for saying on a Java list that Java is not in fact dead. JRuby is cool. It should bring some stability to all the coolness and happiness in the Ruby community. I prefer Groovy to JRuby. I will admit this is a personal preference mostly do to my hatred of Ruby. I also prefer Jython to Jruby mostly because I do not like the Ruby syntax because I thought it was weak compare to Python when I was as excited to Python as you now seem to be about Ruby. Python has also seen some strong growth more so than Ruby not that is it a contest or anything. Basically as long as I can make any money doing anything else Ruby will remain off my list. > > On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: > >> Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby. >> >> deploy/run/test not a problem.... >> >> mvn jetty:run >> >> >> Ok... I will bite, but just this once. >> >> When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications >> then I will >> drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing >> for the >> last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger >> than the >> entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you >> can be >> paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I >> do not >> like Ruby. >> >> For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I >> can get >> paid for something that I love to do. >> >> I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I >> wanted Jython >> to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with >> Jython (a >> book that no one read). >> >> When you say "Java is Dead" it sounds a lot like "Ruby has won". In >> terms of >> the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and >> Python. >> In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby >> has won >> in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with >> two left >> legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not >> won >> anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus >> impact in >> the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael >> Phelps. >> >> >> On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, "Kit Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already >>> be built on Spring). >> >> Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you >> would >> be all over it. Your point is moot. >> >>> Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby. JRuby >>> development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure >>> what >>> your point is. >> >> The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little >> influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a >> fluke. >> Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al >> have a >> much better track record (although much smaller one). >> >> >>> FWIW, Groovy was originally "invented" by James >>> Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least. >> >> Well known fact and not disputed. Again.... Moot point. SpringSource >> could >> have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my >> point. >> Grails is tied to Groovy. >> >>> >>> The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below >>> is the percentage of happy developers in both camps. I would assert, >>> but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby >>> devers than Java devers. Not only that - but, the issue of quality >>> comes into play some where too. I won't provide an assertion here - >>> but, it is a relative notion. >> >> Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and >> hated it. >> What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population >> per se. >> For example, there are people in the world who are quite content >> drinking >> their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet. >> >>> >>> Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the >>> fence >>> here. It is imperative that you can see past this to the real >>> value - >>> developmental efficiency. There's no way Java can win - based on its >>> code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle. >> >> Prompt> mvn jetty:run >> >> Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick. >> Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of >> development. It will take its place in history next to.... (at this >> point I >> realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other >> group of >> people....) >> >>> Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity >>> you'll >>> be burdened with pure Java once again. >> >> This makes no sense. Why? I have written large things in Groovy and >> did not >> need to revert to Java. This is silliness. Moot point. >> >>> >>> If for no other reason than Sun is a turd, Java is dead. >> >> Unproven opinion, easily refuted with real evidence. Java is in no >> way dead. >> It will fall out of favor eventually as all things do. >> >> Ruby will be a never was. Java will one day be a former heavy weight >> champion of the world. >> >>> Open >>> sourcing Sun's version of the JVM and platform has done nothing for >>> ensuring its longevity. Only said with a slight grin. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>> On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. >>>> >>>> From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw >>>> numbers) >>>> than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way >>>> of your >>>> "Java is dead" argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby >>>> does not >>>> seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero, >>>> percentage of growth sky rockets, but.... Not enough. >>>> >>>> BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead. >>>> >>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programming&l= >>>> >>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+ruby&l= >>>> >>>> I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why >>>> they did >>>> not back Jruby in a similar manner. Hmmmm.... >>>> >>>> On 12/9/08 12:04 PM, "Chad Woolley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby: >>>>> >>>>> http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-200 >>>>> 8/ >>>>> >>>>> Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; >>>>> and >>>>> compatibility is good and getting better all the time. >>>>> >>>>> Ok, troll time: >>>>> >>>>> My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy. You get all the >>>>> benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM >>>>> execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, >>>>> etc, >>>>> etc. Most importantly, however, you get a language that was >>>>> designed >>>>> to "make people happy". Most Rubyists - especially those with >>>>> experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well. >>>>> >>>>> As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static >>>>> language >>>>> (Java) appear dynamic. They've done a decent job, but when you >>>>> really >>>>> compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke >>>>> through. >>>>> >>>>> The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the >>>>> Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates. Conversely, all >>>>> language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby >>>>> ecosystem >>>>> is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take >>>>> advantage >>>>> of this with Groovy. Why not be able to choose from the best of >>>>> both >>>>> worlds? >>>>> >>>>> Java is dead, long live the JVM. JRuby FTW in the enterprise. >>>>> >>>>> -- Chad >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> One more side note. JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a >>>>>> while was out >>>>>> performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still >>>>>> true. >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]