KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
so easily addressed with a simple addendum to the plans that changes the tail dimensions. > > +++ > > The other major problem I see that > makes KR's hangar queens is not having any "drag devices" to assist in > the landing mode. I would not be comfortable landing my KR every time > without a belly board. It totally transforms the landing > characteristics of my KR and makes landing on 2800 foot grass with > obstacles a non issue. With engine at idle and speed brake out I get > 1500 fpm decent rate with stable airspeed control. A touch of power > brings that back to 500 fpm on a very stable approach. > > Larry Flesner > > I would second that thought. I flew my KR for 500 hrs without any drag producing devices. Then I added flaps and significantly modified the tail. I don't think I ever landed without flaps again other than for training purposes. The larger tail and deployable drag greatly expanded the operating envelope of my KR with much improved crosswind performance. My KR suddenly changed from a calm day flyer to a plane that I could fly in almost any VFR weather. -Jeff Scott -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
On 8/22/2021 10:51 AM, Jeff Scott wrote: There is no reason to build a plane that is dynamically unstable with ridiculously light elevator pressures when it can be so easily addressed with a simple addendum to the plans that changes the tail dimensions. +++ My KR addressed that issue with a 24" fuselage stretch. Larger tail surfaces would be additional improvement. An enlarged tail, extra width in the fuselage, and better aerodynamics at the wing / fuselage junction are about the only things I would change in hindsight. Even with those issues I love my KR. The other major problem I see that makes KR's hangar queens is not having any "drag devices" to assist in the landing mode. I would not be comfortable landing my KR every time without a belly board. It totally transforms the landing characteristics of my KR and makes landing on 2800 foot grass with obstacles a non issue. With engine at idle and speed brake out I get 1500 fpm decent rate with stable airspeed control. A touch of power brings that back to 500 fpm on a very stable approach. Larry Flesner -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
The unwillingness of the group as a whole to listen to the nearly 50 year old criticism and address these issues is exactly why so many KRs get sold while still in the test phase and the KRs as a whole are a dying breed. I never said they can't be flown. I wouldn't have flown mine for 24 years had I not enjoyed it. But it has the potential to be a much better and much more popular plane than it is. There is no reason to build a plane that is dynamically unstable with ridiculously light elevator pressures when it can be so easily addressed with a simple addendum to the plans that changes the tail dimensions. The number of KRs that go up for sale with extremely low times on them is a testament to the issue. -Jeff Scott > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2021 at 10:32 AM > From: "Flesner" > To: krnet@list.krnet.org > Subject: KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try > > On 8/22/2021 9:58 AM, Jeff Scott wrote: > > What baffles me is why the KR community continues to insist that the > > extremely light elevator is "sporty" or that one is lacking pilot skills if > > they don't love the "sporty" feel of a plane that is dynamically unstable. > > + > > My KR with "light controls" is such a delight to fly and spoiled me to > the point that when flying a C172 on a recent Bi-annual that when I went > to flare on the first landing I "panicked" and let go of the throttle to > use both hands on the wheel to land that dump truck. After a flight in > the KR I can't consciously remember moving the stick. I certainly > remember moving the yoke in a Cessna. After a few hours in a KR you'll > wonder what all the fuss is about. > > Larry Flesner > -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
On 8/22/2021 9:58 AM, Jeff Scott wrote: What baffles me is why the KR community continues to insist that the extremely light elevator is "sporty" or that one is lacking pilot skills if they don't love the "sporty" feel of a plane that is dynamically unstable. + My KR with "light controls" is such a delight to fly and spoiled me to the point that when flying a C172 on a recent Bi-annual that when I went to flare on the first landing I "panicked" and let go of the throttle to use both hands on the wheel to land that dump truck. After a flight in the KR I can't consciously remember moving the stick. I certainly remember moving the yoke in a Cessna. After a few hours in a KR you'll wonder what all the fuss is about. Larry Flesner -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
My only suggestion would be to cut at least 3" off the stick. Larry Flesner + Wouldn't that make it worse? The shorter the stick the less travel you have for the same movement. I would think if the stick was 3 foot tall it would be better, but not practical. Kevin GoldenHarrisonville, MO + With the stick as long as I saw in the photo the pilot would be inclined to hold the stick in a "fist grip" at the top with no way to rest his arm. The controls in the KR give very light feedback and with a "free arm" grip on a stick that long the pilot will be inclined to actually "move" the stick and induce PIO instead of simply applying a bit of side pressure with wrist and fingers on a supported arm as is required in the KR. Unless I'm mistaken I heard the pilot say he let go of the stick to regain control. If that is correct he had a presence of mind that I would not have had at that moment. I did a two cycle PIO at liftoff in a Zenith 750 with a tall stick and caught it on the second cycle. I would have crashed before considering letting go of the stick. "The shorter the stick the less travel you have for the same movement." With the handling qualities of a KR you really don't want much "stick movement".. Go back and watch the video of Jeff Lang flying Pete Bradingham"s KR as well as other videos of KR's in flight. Your will not see any with a tall stick with the pilot holding a "fist grip" with a free arm. KR sticks are short with little movement and gripped with a supported arm. When done correctly the KR is a great flying airplane. I feel like mine is simply following my thoughts. As always, YRMV Larry Flesner -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
Shorter stick = less leverage, so more pressure required to move the stick, but also less motion for the same movement at the tail. So, the question is, do you fly your plane using the mechanical motion of the stick or by feeling the pressure on the stick? No question on the first flight, everyone uses the mechanical motion since they don't have any feel for the plane. Thus the initial Pilot Induces Oscillations as demonstrated in a recent video. But, one typically develops a feel for the extremely light elevator forces of the KR very quickly. What baffles me is why the KR community continues to insist that the extremely light elevator is "sporty" or that one is lacking pilot skills if they don't love the "sporty" feel of a plane that is dynamically unstable. This is something that could easily be fixed in the tail design. I know I've been told on this forum that I was lacking skills and am more suited to flying a dump truck. But hey, I've only got 1400 hours of KR time. :o) I guess none of us want to listen when someone calls your baby ugly, even if the criticism is accurate. -Jeff Scott Arkansas Ozarks > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2021 at 9:23 AM > From: "tinyauto--- via KRnet" > To: "krnet@list.krnet.org" > Cc: tinya...@aol.com > Subject: KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try > > Wouldn't that make it worse? The shorter the stick the less travel you have > for the same movement. I would think if the stick > was 3 foot tall it would > be better, but not practical. > Kevin GoldenHarrisonville, MO > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Flesner > To: krnet@list.krnet.org > Sent: Sun, Aug 15, 2021 1:40 pm > Subject: KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try > > On 8/15/2021 1:37 PM, Flesner wrote: > > The young man did a masterful job on his first landing. > > ++ > > My only suggestion would be to cut at least 3" off the stick. > > Larry Flesner -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
Wouldn't that make it worse? The shorter the stick the less travel you have for the same movement. I would think if the stick was 3 foot tall it would be better, but not practical. Kevin GoldenHarrisonville, MO -Original Message- From: Flesner To: krnet@list.krnet.org Sent: Sun, Aug 15, 2021 1:40 pm Subject: KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try On 8/15/2021 1:37 PM, Flesner wrote: > The young man did a masterful job on his first landing. ++ My only suggestion would be to cut at least 3" off the stick. Larry Flesner -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
On 8/15/2021 1:37 PM, Flesner wrote: The young man did a masterful job on his first landing. ++ My only suggestion would be to cut at least 3" off the stick. Larry Flesner -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
On 8/15/2021 12:32 PM, Jeff Scott wrote: I have to say that what I saw on this video is very typical of a first flight in a stock KR-1 or KR-2 when one hasn't done any training in a similar aircraft with touchy controls. +++ I'm glad the young man recovered from over control quickly. I watched the video once and couldn't get myself to watch it a second time with the PIO, even after knowing he recovered. It looks too much like accident videos I see on Youtube. Anyone flying a KR for the first time without similar practice should remind themselves you don't fly a KR with a "free arm" and move the stick. You MUST rest your arm on something, your leg on a two stick setup or an arm rest on a center stick. Then tell yourself "don't move the stick, just use pressure with your fingers and wrist. I had no PIO on my first flight in spite of a lack of training but my arm rested on my leg and using my wrist action I put back pressure on the stick. If you can get past your first takeoff without crashing you'll love the way the KR flies. It literally follows your thoughts. The young man did a masterful job on his first landing. Congratulation and enjoy your new found freedom. Larry Flesner -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
Good job of capturing the video Marc! Congrats to the pilot. I have to say that what I saw on this video is very typical of a first flight in a stock KR-1 or KR-2 when one hasn't done any training in a similar aircraft with touchy controls. My first flight in my KR some 25 years ago was similar. Although the pilot induced oscillations (PIOs) weren't quite so pronounced, I did three PIOs hunting for a climb speed and learning the pitch sensitivity before the aircraft felt like it was properly controlled. This is where many KR builders scare the pee out of themselves and never fly the plane again, but is something easily overcome with just a few minutes of hands on training in another KR or aircraft with similar characteristics. I guarantee, this pilot will have the plane under control on every future take off as he now knows how the plane feels. It ain't the ham fisted Cessna you learned to fly in. FAA Registry says the owner is Peter Peterson. Congrats again to the pilot! -Jeff Scott Arkansas Ozarks > Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 at 9:22 AM > From: "Marc Baca via KRnet" > To: "KRnet" > Cc: "Marc Baca" > Subject: KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try > > Here's the link not sure why it doesn't work on previous email. > https://vimeo.com/587386028 > > > > > > On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 07:18:26 AM PDT, Marc Baca via KRnet > wrote: > > Hello All... (second attempt) > A few months ago Mike See had asked about Sam Bailey's KR-1. I responded > that it was purchased by a guy out of Torrance who pickled it and kept it > neetly tucked in his hangar. The owner moved out of state and the plane got > sold to a fellow at San Gabriel Valley (El Monte CA) Airport who had zero > experience with experimentals but had the vision and drive to become an > experimental builder and pilot. After what seems like millions of questions, > relentless requests for guidance, 3 months of hard work and the associated > trials and tribulations he made the little bird airworthy again. He did his > best to get flight experience but KR pilots with flyable two seat aircraft > are few and far between out here in the Los Angeles area. > In short he flew N31SB today. It was a super sketchy take off but given the > high level of vestibular input and the fact that he did not know what to > expect he was able to get it off the ground and did several passes to get the > courage up to land. To his credit and absent available training and the > virulent practice of emergency drills he was able to take off and land > "safetly." His primary impression is that the plane is twitchy, pitch > sensitive and very powerful... much more than the certified planes he's used > to flying. I think I got the link correct now. > > Marc BacaN13UGChino, CA > > > SkyFirstFlight.wmv > > > | > | > | > | | | > > | > > | > | > | | > SkyFirstFlight.wmv > > > | > > | > > | > > > > > -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > -Change list delivery options at > https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board > -Search recent KRnet Archives at > https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ > -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at > https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ > > -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > -Change list delivery options at > https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board > -Search recent KRnet Archives at > https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ > -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at > https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
Good video, my compliments to the videographer. Generally a very good flight given the circumstances. Congratulations to the brave pilot. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -Original Message- From: Marc Baca via KRnet Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 10:23 AM To: KRnet Cc: Marc Baca Subject: KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try Here's the link not sure why it doesn't work on previous email. https://vimeo.com/587386028 On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 07:18:26 AM PDT, Marc Baca via KRnet wrote: Hello All... (second attempt) A few months ago Mike See had asked about Sam Bailey's KR-1. I responded that it was purchased by a guy out of Torrance who pickled it and kept it neetly tucked in his hangar. The owner moved out of state and the plane got sold to a fellow at San Gabriel Valley (El Monte CA) Airport who had zero experience with experimentals but had the vision and drive to become an experimental builder and pilot. After what seems like millions of questions, relentless requests for guidance, 3 months of hard work and the associated trials and tribulations he made the little bird airworthy again. He did his best to get flight experience but KR pilots with flyable two seat aircraft are few and far between out here in the Los Angeles area. In short he flew N31SB today. It was a super sketchy take off but given the high level of vestibular input and the fact that he did not know what to expect he was able to get it off the ground and did several passes to get the courage up to land. To his credit and absent available training and the virulent practice of emergency drills he was able to take off and land "safetly." His primary impression is that the plane is twitchy, pitch sensitive and very powerful... much more than the certified planes he's used to flying. I think I got the link correct now. Marc BacaN13UGChino, CA SkyFirstFlight.wmv | | | | | | | | | | | SkyFirstFlight.wmv | | | -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
KR>Re: Sam Bailey KR1 Flies again - Second try
Here's the link not sure why it doesn't work on previous email. https://vimeo.com/587386028 On Sunday, August 15, 2021, 07:18:26 AM PDT, Marc Baca via KRnet wrote: Hello All... (second attempt) A few months ago Mike See had asked about Sam Bailey's KR-1. I responded that it was purchased by a guy out of Torrance who pickled it and kept it neetly tucked in his hangar. The owner moved out of state and the plane got sold to a fellow at San Gabriel Valley (El Monte CA) Airport who had zero experience with experimentals but had the vision and drive to become an experimental builder and pilot. After what seems like millions of questions, relentless requests for guidance, 3 months of hard work and the associated trials and tribulations he made the little bird airworthy again. He did his best to get flight experience but KR pilots with flyable two seat aircraft are few and far between out here in the Los Angeles area. In short he flew N31SB today. It was a super sketchy take off but given the high level of vestibular input and the fact that he did not know what to expect he was able to get it off the ground and did several passes to get the courage up to land. To his credit and absent available training and the virulent practice of emergency drills he was able to take off and land "safetly." His primary impression is that the plane is twitchy, pitch sensitive and very powerful... much more than the certified planes he's used to flying. I think I got the link correct now. Marc BacaN13UGChino, CA SkyFirstFlight.wmv | | | | | | | | | | | SkyFirstFlight.wmv | | | -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ -Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html -Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board -Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ -Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
