Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
I don't think there is one. The well-established user test for ethanol before fueling a plane is to fill a test tube part way with water and make a mark. Then fill it the rest of the way with gasoline (which will float on top) and shake it. If the line has moved up, there's ethanol in the gasoline and it shouldn't be used. I've never seen this test suggesting that it's OK for the line to move up just a little bit, etc. Of course, this is the test for certified planes that use STCs for autogas. Ethanol gas is very corrosive, and modern cars use polyethylene gas tanks and other parts that aren't affected by it. But if you have an experimental plane with an auto engine and you use ethanol-resistant parts for everything, you could probably use the same gas you'd use in a car. Mike Taglieri On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 5:22 PM, Craig Williams via KRnet < krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote: > I have a question in this same vein. If I mix 50/50 of 100LL and a 93 > octane autogas with 10% ethanol don't I end up with something like 95-ish > octane with 5% ethanol? At what point can I ignore the ethanol. 6%, 4% > maybe 3%? > > Craig > > > > > On September 11, 2018 at 10:25 AM "brian.kraut--- via KRnet" < > krnet@list.krnet.org> wrote: > > > > > > Earlier in this thread there was talk of mixing ethanol containing mogas > > with water to remove the ethanol. That does remove the ethanol from the > > fuel (not sure if it removes 100%, but it does remove a lot of it), but > > there is still one problem. From what I have researched, the ethanol > > they normally use is 113 octane. If you remove the ethanol from 87 > > octane mogas you are left with 85 octane. Not sure if there are other > > considerations, but I would not be doing science experiments with the > > gas I am using in my airplane if I was not some kind of expert in fuels > > and knew exactly what I was doing. > > > > Brian Kraut > > 904-536-1780 > > br...@eamanuacturing.com > > > > ___ > > Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/ > krnet@list.krnet.org/. > > Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. > > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to > change options. > > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/ > krnet@list.krnet.org/. > Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org > ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
I have a question in this same vein. If I mix 50/50 of 100LL and a 93 octane autogas with 10% ethanol don't I end up with something like 95-ish octane with 5% ethanol? At what point can I ignore the ethanol. 6%, 4% maybe 3%? Craig > On September 11, 2018 at 10:25 AM "brian.kraut--- via KRnet" > wrote: > > > Earlier in this thread there was talk of mixing ethanol containing mogas > with water to remove the ethanol. That does remove the ethanol from the > fuel (not sure if it removes 100%, but it does remove a lot of it), but > there is still one problem. From what I have researched, the ethanol > they normally use is 113 octane. If you remove the ethanol from 87 > octane mogas you are left with 85 octane. Not sure if there are other > considerations, but I would not be doing science experiments with the > gas I am using in my airplane if I was not some kind of expert in fuels > and knew exactly what I was doing. > > Brian Kraut > 904-536-1780 > br...@eamanuacturing.com > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at > https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. > Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
Earlier in this thread there was talk of mixing ethanol containing mogas with water to remove the ethanol. That does remove the ethanol from the fuel (not sure if it removes 100%, but it does remove a lot of it), but there is still one problem. From what I have researched, the ethanol they normally use is 113 octane. If you remove the ethanol from 87 octane mogas you are left with 85 octane. Not sure if there are other considerations, but I would not be doing science experiments with the gas I am using in my airplane if I was not some kind of expert in fuels and knew exactly what I was doing. Brian Kraut 904-536-1780 br...@eamanuacturing.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
Earlier in this thread there was talk of mixing ethanol containing mogas with water to remove the ethanol. That does remove the ethanol from the fuel (not sure if it removes 100%, but it does remove a lot of it), but there is still one problem. From what I have researched, the ethanol they normally use is 113 octane. If you remove the ethanol from 87 octane mogas you are left with 85 octane. Not sure if there are other considerations, but I would not be doing science experiments with the gas I am using in my airplane if I was not some kind of expert in fuels and knew exactly what I was doing.Brian Kraut904-536-1780br...@eamanuacturing.com ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
I guess you missed the beginning of this thread? It was about mixing fairly large quantities of water with ethanol gasoline to remove the ethanol, which passes into the water. Then you have to to separate the water from the gasoline, which is what we were talking about. Mike Taglieri On Sun, Sep 9, 2018 at 8:34 AM, Flesner via KRnet wrote: > On 9/8/2018 10:02 PM, Mike T via KRnet wrote: > >> Yes, but if you had to run gasoline with 10 gallons of water in it through >> the funnel, where does the water go? >> > > > +++ > > How much fuel are you filtering that has 10 gallon of water in it? Find > another supplier and another process. > > I filter 100LL from the waste barrel, sometimes 10 to 15 gallon at a time, > and sometimes may get 1 or 2 cups of water. The water remains in the > bottom of the funnel. If I encountered enough water to fill the funnel I'd > have to stop and dump it out. I filter it a second time when I put it in > the KR. > > Not being a chemist, I still wonder if alcohol suspended in water would > stay in the water and not separate and pass through the filter. > > > Larry Flesner > ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
+ I put hundreds of hours on the Tripacer and KR using MoGas without a problem but not any more. I've purchased fuel (Shell) at a local station that charged a higher price for "no-alcohol" fuel and found it loaded with alcohol. You can't trust the system on an issue like this. You might get rid of the alcohol but the gas is crap like Jeff found out the hard way. Check, double check, and practice engine out procedures. Larry Flesner ___ What I discovered is that not all Alcohol Free 91 AKI gasolines are created equal. This is part of my learning curve from moving to a new area of the country. Now that I have a damaged aircraft, all kinds of people come crawling out of the woodwork to tell me about the one station that has good fuel. Up to that point, I heard no mention of it. Now that I have found what appears to be a reliable fuel source, I fully intend to go back to running an 80% Mogas mix in my planes. However, I would strongly recommend testing in a manner similar to the jar tests that I performed. The test I referenced previously using fittings with cured pipe dope in them only took a few seconds to perform and is a strong indicator of the presence of additional chemicals that may be detrimental to your fuel system. I would also perform the standard testing for presence of ethanol as well. If the fuel passes both of those tests, I would deem it as fit to use in my aircraft. In addition to the additional fuel testing, when I repair the other aircraft, I will be painting on a slosh coating compound on the inside of the tanks to further protect the tanks in the case of a similar fuel contamination situation in the future. I should mention here that Vinylester tanks are the safest way to go with composite tanks. That was unknown when I built my KR, and my SuperCub already had glass tanks in it when I bought the project, so I used them. However, even vinylester won't protect the rest of your fuel system from additives that may dissolve the pipe dopes or damage rubber compounds. While we currently have 100LL available as an expensive, overloaded with lead, but relatively safe fuel to burn. It's demise is planned in the not too distant future. The FAAs PAFI testing has already discovered interoperability issues between the Aeroshell and the Swift unleaded fuels. Now most of the vendors, Swift, GAMI, and Phillips are all attempting to certify their unleaded fuels via STC rather than continuing the PAFI process, while Shell is now alone in proceeding with the FAAs PAFI initiative. None of us know for sure that any or all of these fuels will be as kind to our fuel systems as 100LL, and some may have a different metal added as an octane booster that could be just as detrimental to engine valve guide life as the lead in 100LL. One thing is for sure; The 100LL replacement fuel will be even more expensive than 100LL, but will be lead free, negating any reason to purchase it to mix with Mogas. In my opinion, it's best to know what options are available other than the fuels being sold at the airport. -Jeff Scott Cherokee Village, AR ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
On 9/9/2018 8:17 AM, peter via KRnet wrote: The more thorough the mixing of water and gas, and the longer you let the mixture settle out before filtering, the better. Remember that all mogas contains traces of alchohol because of cross-contamination in distribution. The stickers on the pumps tell you this. 100LL is a pain for refiners to distribute because they cannot allow Any T-E-Lead to contaminate their other products. Peter + I put hundreds of hours on the Tripacer and KR using MoGas without a problem but not any more. I've purchased fuel (Shell) at a local station that charged a higher price for "no-alcohol" fuel and found it loaded with alcohol. You can't trust the system on an issue like this. You might get rid of the alcohol but the gas is crap like Jeff found out the hard way. Check, double check, and practice engine out procedures. Larry Flesner ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
The more thorough the mixing of water and gas, and the longer you let the mixture settle out before filtering, the better. Remember that all mogas contains traces of alchohol because of cross-contamination in distribution. The stickers on the pumps tell you this. 100LL is a pain for refiners to distribute because they cannot allow Any T-E-Lead to contaminate their other products. Peter ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
On 9/8/2018 10:02 PM, Mike T via KRnet wrote: Yes, but if you had to run gasoline with 10 gallons of water in it through the funnel, where does the water go? +++ How much fuel are you filtering that has 10 gallon of water in it? Find another supplier and another process. I filter 100LL from the waste barrel, sometimes 10 to 15 gallon at a time, and sometimes may get 1 or 2 cups of water. The water remains in the bottom of the funnel. If I encountered enough water to fill the funnel I'd have to stop and dump it out. I filter it a second time when I put it in the KR. Not being a chemist, I still wonder if alcohol suspended in water would stay in the water and not separate and pass through the filter. Larry Flesner ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
Great info, nicely done test. Thanks Jeff York On Fri, Sep 7, 2018, 12:34 PM Jeff Scott via KRnet wrote: > I thought I would make a followup report on the Mogas testing I have > conducted and the little bit that I have learned from it. > > I attached a photo of the same five jars of fuel after a month of soak > testing various parts that might be in the fuel system with some surprising > results, but more importantly perhaps an additional test methodology to > verify Mogas fuels for airdcraft use. > > In each jar, I place a new O-ring. Then I worked some pipe dope > (RectorSeal) into the threads of a 1/8" male pipe fitting and allowed to > cure for 24 hours before placing into the fuels. Then I laid up a single > sheet of tooling glass with aeropoxy and peel ply squeegeed out as thin as > reasonably possible and allowed to cure. After curing, I cut the fiberglas > into test strips and placed into the fuel jars for soak testing, one strip > with peel ply still on it, and one strip without and only one end of the > strip submerged in the fuel. > > The fuels in the picture are 1) 100LL as a control, 2) local > Conoco/Phillips brand 3) local unbranded independent fuel 4) local CITGO > branded fuel, and 5) local Murphy oil fuel that damaged my fuel systems as > my second control. > > Testing: > > The O-rings really don't show enough change to quantify at this point in > time. I'd like to think I can feel some slight differences, but it is not > sufficient for me to draw any conclusions as to damage to the O-rings at > this point in time. > > The fiberglass test strips in the three yellow colored fuels (3, 4, & 5) > and definitely showing signs of softening and degrading. When removed from > the fuel, it is visibly obvious which end of the test strip was submerged > in the fuel and the submerged end is starting to soften and the resin is > thinning between the weave of the glass. > > The pipe dope testing was very quick and probably the most telling. Jar > #5 dissolved the pipe dope from the threads of the fitting on contact. > That test was completed in a matter of seconds. Jars #3 & 4 both dissolved > the pipe dope as soon as I swirled the jar, so that testing was also > completed in a matter of 20 seconds or so. Jar #1 (100LL) and Jar #2 > (local Conoco/Phillips) neither one attacked the pipe dope on the threads > of the pipe fittings. After a month and repeatedly swirling the fuels, > Jars #1 & 2 still have the pipe dope intact in the threads of the > fittings. In the attached photo, I had just swirled the 5 jars. The > cloudiness in the three jars to the right is caused by the pipe dope in > suspension in the fuel. > > After a one month test, I think I have a winner for a Mogas I can safely > run in my planes. The local Conoco/Phillips brand fuel seems to be just as > innocuous to the various fuel system parts as 100LL. Of course it is 91 > AKI fuel with no alcohol and no lead, so will get mixed with 25% 100LL for > the time being to maintain the optimal amount of lead in the fuel for my > engines. > > In conclusion, based on the simple testing I have done here, in addition > to testing fuel for alcohol, I would also take a sample of the fuel and > test it against a pipe fitting with some dried pipe dope to see if it > attacks the pipe dope. If the pipe dope readily dissolves into the fuel, > you wasn to consider whether you want to run that fuel in your plane as it > may eventually wick it's way through any doped pipe fittings, may attack > any composite parts in the tanks, and may cause problems with rubber or > neoprene O-rings or seals in the fuel system. > > For those of us with Epoxy resin based fuel tanks, this is probably doubly > important. I will say the slosh compound I used in my KR tanks some 22 > years ago did save them from damage from the aggressive fuel I used, > otherwise I would also be cutting the tanks open in it as well. > > I have not yet repaired the tanks in my SuperCub Clone. I have been > waiting for cooler weather here in AR. I anticipate getting started on the > repairs after I return home from vacation following the KR Gathering. I > will post photos and descriptions of what I find after I cut the tanks open. > > -Jeff Scott > Cherokee Village, AR > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at > https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. > Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org > ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@li
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
Yes, but if you had to run gasoline with 10 gallons of water in it through the funnel, where does the water go? On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 10:55 PM, Flesner via KRnet wrote: > On 9/8/2018 9:06 PM, Mike T via KRnet wrote: > >> I think it could in theory, but I have to assume these funnels are >> designed >> to remove small amounts of water and contaminants from fuel and they'd >> clog >> or fail to work right if there's a huge amount of water. >> > > > > > > I can fill the funnel to the brim with water and not a drop comes through. > > > Larry Flesner > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/k > r...@list.krnet.org/. > Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org > ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
On 9/8/2018 9:06 PM, Mike T via KRnet wrote: I think it could in theory, but I have to assume these funnels are designed to remove small amounts of water and contaminants from fuel and they'd clog or fail to work right if there's a huge amount of water. I can fill the funnel to the brim with water and not a drop comes through. Larry Flesner ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
I think it could in theory, but I have to assume these funnels are designed to remove small amounts of water and contaminants from fuel and they'd clog or fail to work right if there's a huge amount of water. Ethanol and water are miscible -- they can blend in any proportion -- but if you don't use enough water some ethanol might possibly remain in the gasoline. I have no idea what the minimum amount of water you could use would be, but there is probably a minimum amount. When I did my test with the toilet plunger, I used 1 gallon of water, then filled the 5-gallon bucket up near the top with E-10. The resulting waste was water 2:1 with a ethanol, which I could pour in my yard without worrying about it. I think an easier way to remove large amounts of water would be to siphon it off the bottom of the barrel (since water and gasoline form two layers). I was thinking of using a large plastic rolling gas carrier like this [photo chosen at random on the web] and installing a small spigot at the very bottom. Then you could shake it as as needed by pivoting it up and down on the wheels, then drain off the ethanol-laden water from the bottom until you got pure fuel. The last couple of ounces might be contaminated, and one of these funnels would be useful for that. Mike Taglieri https://www.walmart.com/ip/Moeller-DuraMax-EPA-CARB-Approved-14-Gallon-Fluid-Transfer-with-Flo-n-Go-Hand-Pump-and-10-Long-Fuel-Hose/32736982?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1122&adid=227021668352&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42530188112&wl4=pla-89207525579&wl5=9004144&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=101593696&wl11=online&wl12=32736982&wl13=&veh=sem On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 9:43 PM, Flesner via KRnet wrote: > On 9/8/2018 8:15 PM, peter via KRnet wrote: > >> ethanol cannot be separated from gas by funnels using "phase-change" >> properties. The fuel that is de-alchololed with water is identical to other >> fuels in the retail stream. >> > > > > +++ > > I should have stated my question more clearly. If I fill a 5 gallon > container with ethanol laced fuel, add water, shake well, and then pour > through a funnel https://www.aircraftspruce.com > /catalog/appages/fwfunnels.php?clickkey=13357 , will the ethanol stay > suspended in the water or separate and pass through the funnel filter. > This is the type filter I use to double filter 100Ll and it will not pass > water. I tested it in the kitchen sink when new and not a single drop came > through although the filter was full of water. I think it filters down to > X microns. > > Larry Flesner > > > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/k > r...@list.krnet.org/. > Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org > ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
If that's really the case, then de-ethanolized gasoline (or whatever you want to call it) from a major brand might be a more reliable fuel than some off-brands of non-ethanol gasoline. You are, of course, losing 1/10 of the fuel you buy, but commercial gasoline is so much cheaper than aviation gas that it hardly matters. P.S. It was a brand-new toilet plunger that had never been used for its intended purpose On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 9:15 PM, peter via KRnet wrote: > Larry; ethanol cannot be separated from gas by funnels using > "phase-change" properties. The fuel that is de-alchololed with water is > identical to other fuels in the retail stream. The ethanol is added to each > tanker truck as it is filled for wholesale delivery, partly because it is > too corrosive to be pumped through our expensive pipelines. I inject the > water/ethanol mixture in my older Ranger to suppress ping. Works better > than water. Peter > > ___ > Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/ > krnet@list.krnet.org/. > Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. > see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change > options. > To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org > ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
On 9/8/2018 8:15 PM, peter via KRnet wrote: ethanol cannot be separated from gas by funnels using "phase-change" properties. The fuel that is de-alchololed with water is identical to other fuels in the retail stream. +++ I should have stated my question more clearly. If I fill a 5 gallon container with ethanol laced fuel, add water, shake well, and then pour through a funnel https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/fwfunnels.php?clickkey=13357 , will the ethanol stay suspended in the water or separate and pass through the funnel filter. This is the type filter I use to double filter 100Ll and it will not pass water. I tested it in the kitchen sink when new and not a single drop came through although the filter was full of water. I think it filters down to X microns. Larry Flesner ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
Larry; ethanol cannot be separated from gas by funnels using "phase-change" properties. The fuel that is de-alchololed with water is identical to other fuels in the retail stream. The ethanol is added to each tanker truck as it is filled for wholesale delivery, partly because it is too corrosive to be pumped through our expensive pipelines. I inject the water/ethanol mixture in my older Ranger to suppress ping. Works better than water. Peter ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
On 9/8/2018 6:53 PM, Mike T via KRnet wrote: I once tried this process on a larger scale, churning a 5 gallon bucket of E-10 and water with a toilet plunger (outdoors), and I was easily able to lower the ethanol content to zero. Mike, You removed the ethanol but what did you contaminate the fuel with using the toilet plunger? :-D I wonder if the ethanol stays suspended in the water if run through a funnel that blocks water. I use such a funnel to reclaim 100LL from the waste barrel at the local airport. I'll have to give that a try but I'm busy for the next two weeks. I have 35 or 40 gallon of 100LL in my out building. I hope it never gets struck with lightning. Larry Flesner ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
Would you consider trying one more test? I've been wanting to do a test of E-10 -- the standard gasoline today that has 10% ethanol -- to see if "washing" it removes all harmful substances. It's well known that if you thoroughly thorough mix E-10 and water, you wind up with all the ethanol in the water, because ethanol dissolves in water and gasoline does not. This is the basis for a standard test (circulated by the EAA) for ethanol in gas by shaking it with water in a test tube. I once tried this process on a larger scale, churning a 5 gallon bucket of E-10 and water with a toilet plunger (outdoors), and I was easily able to lower the ethanol content to zero. But I didn't have appropriate 0-rings and fiberglass chunks to test it with to see if it harmed the things on an aircraft, and I live in an area that doesn't sell ethanol-free gas so I couldn't buy samples to test it against. Your tests suggests that the manufacture of ethanol-free gasoline isn't done as carefully or as standardized as the national brands, maybe because the demand for it is so low. So if washed E-10 passed the same tests you put these other gasolines through, that could open up a source of affordable aircraft fuel to many more people. Mike Taglieri On Fri, Sep 7, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Jeff Scott via KRnet wrote: > I thought I would make a followup report on the Mogas testing I have > conducted and the little bit that I have learned from it. > > I attached a photo of the same five jars of fuel after a month of soak > testing various parts that might be in the fuel system with some surprising > results, but more importantly perhaps an additional test methodology to > verify Mogas fuels for airdcraft use. > > In each jar, I place a new O-ring. Then I worked some pipe dope > (RectorSeal) into the threads of a 1/8" male pipe fitting and allowed to > cure for 24 hours before placing into the fuels. Then I laid up a single > sheet of tooling glass with aeropoxy and peel ply squeegeed out as thin as > reasonably possible and allowed to cure. After curing, I cut the fiberglas > into test strips and placed into the fuel jars for soak testing, one strip > with peel ply still on it, and one strip without and only one end of the > strip submerged in the fuel. > > The fuels in the picture are 1) 100LL as a control, 2) local > Conoco/Phillips brand 3) local unbranded independent fuel 4) local CITGO > branded fuel, and 5) local Murphy oil fuel that damaged my fuel systems as > my second control. > > Testing: > > The O-rings really don't show enough change to quantify at this point in > time. I'd like to think I can feel some slight differences, but it is not > sufficient for me to draw any conclusions as to damage to the O-rings at > this point in time. > > The fiberglass test strips in the three yellow colored fuels (3, 4, & 5) > and definitely showing signs of softening and degrading. When removed from > the fuel, it is visibly obvious which end of the test strip was submerged > in the fuel and the submerged end is starting to soften and the resin is > thinning between the weave of the glass. > > The pipe dope testing was very quick and probably the most telling. Jar > #5 dissolved the pipe dope from the threads of the fitting on contact. > That test was completed in a matter of seconds. Jars #3 & 4 both dissolved > the pipe dope as soon as I swirled the jar, so that testing was also > completed in a matter of 20 seconds or so. Jar #1 (100LL) and Jar #2 > (local Conoco/Phillips) neither one attacked the pipe dope on the threads > of the pipe fittings. After a month and repeatedly swirling the fuels, > Jars #1 & 2 still have the pipe dope intact in the threads of the > fittings. In the attached photo, I had just swirled the 5 jars. The > cloudiness in the three jars to the right is caused by the pipe dope in > suspension in the fuel. > > After a one month test, I think I have a winner for a Mogas I can safely > run in my planes. The local Conoco/Phillips brand fuel seems to be just as > innocuous to the various fuel system parts as 100LL. Of course it is 91 > AKI fuel with no alcohol and no lead, so will get mixed with 25% 100LL for > the time being to maintain the optimal amount of lead in the fuel for my > engines. > > In conclusion, based on the simple testing I have done here, in addition > to testing fuel for alcohol, I would also take a sample of the fuel and > test it against a pipe fitting with some dried pipe dope to see if it > attacks the pipe dope. If the pipe dope readily dissolves into the fuel, > you wasn to consider whether you want to run that fuel in your plane as it > may eventually wick it's way through any doped pipe fittings, may attack > any composite parts in the tanks, and may cause problems with rubber or > neoprene O-rings or seals in the fuel system. > > For those of us with Epoxy resin based fuel tanks, this is probably doubly > important. I will say the slosh compound I used in my KR tanks some
Re: KR> Mogas Testing (Mogas Blues continued)
Jeff - Thanks for posting, great information. Chris K On 9/7/2018 10:34 AM, Jeff Scott via KRnet wrote: I thought I would make a followup report on the Mogas testing I have conducted and the little bit that I have learned from it. ___ Search the KRnet Archives at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/. Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html. see http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org to change options. To UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@list.krnet.org
