KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any experimental 
aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing 
skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within 
the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I am unable 
to establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of the wings 
prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and elevator are stalling 
prior to the wings. This happened during the first stall approach and a stall 
approach will not happen again until the problem is solved. Has anyone 
experienced this? Anyone have a thought as to WHY. This could be a dangerous 
situation.

Bill Page
boliverp...@bellsouth.net

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[D F Lively]

Bill:

I can not address this with respect to KR aircraft but do have knowledge of an 
elevator stall problem in the early units of a certified craft that led to ADs. 
 The early Cessna Cardinals(177s) with the Laminair flow wing had such a 
problem  That crafy has a "Flying Tail" and is a high wing.  Cessna cured that 
problem by adding LE slots to the elevator.  I do not know whether it help or 
not but perhaps some examination of  the elevator stall problem assciated with 
the Cardinal problem may serve as a basis for understandin of elevator stall 
problems cause and cure.  Perhaps a direct inquiry of  Deihl himself will shed 
some light.

Just a suggestion as it sounds way to importent to let slide.

Don
  

countryhomeprint wrote:

> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any experimental 
> aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing 
> skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within 
> the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I am unable 
> to establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of the wings 
> prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and elevator are stalling 
> prior to the wings. This happened during the first stall approach and a stall 
> approach will not happen again until the problem is solved. Has anyone 
> experienced this? Anyone have a thought as to WHY. This could be a dangerous 
> situation.
>
> Bill Page
> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Dan Heath]

I believe that the CG must be the same as it is the same airfoil.  I too am
concerned about the difference between the stock wing and the Diehl wings. 
Before I fly mine, I intend to ask Dan what to expect. 

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building
is OVER.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
---Original Message---
 Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the standard 
KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the standard KR-2, 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Martindale Family]

Bill and Don

I own a Cardinal and have test flown them. The underside of the elevator 
used to stall at extreme back pressure resulting an uncontrolled pitch down 
of the nose. This was cured using inverted slots as you say but the point I 
am making is that it is a different issue to the stall of the main wing 
where you want the nose to drop to recover. The Cardinal issue occured 
during the flare when you want to keep the nose up and it wouldn't leading 
to a porpoise. It was not an issue for the stall you are talking aboutin 
fact it helped!!  Bill's problem sounds more like a CoG problem, ie., to far 
back such that the elevator cannot lift the tail to decrease AoA on the main 
planeor perhaps the elevator travel is limited/incorrectly rigged.

Regards John

Martindale Family
29 Jane Circuit
TOORMINA NSW 2452
AUSTRALIA

ph:  61 2 66584767
email: johnja...@optusnet.com.au
web: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/johnjanet/Martindale.htm
- Original Message - 
From: "D F Lively" <riksh...@interl.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Bill:
>
> I can not address this with respect to KR aircraft but do have knowledge 
> of an elevator stall problem in the early units of a certified craft that 
> led to ADs.  The early Cessna Cardinals(177s) with the Laminair flow wing 
> had such a problem  That crafy has a "Flying Tail" and is a high wing. 
> Cessna cured that problem by adding LE slots to the elevator.  I do not 
> know whether it help or not but perhaps some examination of  the elevator 
> stall problem assciated with the Cardinal problem may serve as a basis for 
> understandin of elevator stall problems cause and cure.  Perhaps a direct 
> inquiry of  Deihl himself will shed some light.
>
> Just a suggestion as it sounds way to importent to let slide.
>
> Don
>  
>
> countryhomeprint wrote:
>
>> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any 
>> experimental aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for 
>> Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings? 
>> N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR 
>> feels tail heavy. I am unable to establish a true stall due to the 
>> uncontrolled pitching up of the wings prior to stall. It feels as if the 
>> horizontal stab and elevator are stalling prior to the wings. This 
>> happened during the first stall approach and a stall approach will not 
>> happen again until the problem is solved. Has anyone experienced this? 
>> Anyone have a thought as to WHY. This could be a dangerous situation.
>>
>> Bill Page
>> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[D F Lively]

John:

I was not fully aware of all the details of the Cardinals elevator stall problem
but just thought it might be a relevant place to look for clues.

My connection with the early Cardinal is that I had my one and only emergency
landing in one of the anemic 150 HP models with the laminar flow wing in the So.
California desert 1/2 way between Palm Springs and the Colorado River on Easter
Sunday 1971.  TTAF  1150 hrs wrist-pin boss on the left rear piston failed!
Full power on final 1300 rpm to dragit in as slow as possible with the
"Barn-Doors " full down could not read the panel for the vibration.  All in all
an experience I never wish to repeat. never wrinkled the aircraft and set it
down in less than 600 ft.

Don
  

Martindale Family wrote:

> Bill and Don
>
> I own a Cardinal and have test flown them. The underside of the elevator
> used to stall at extreme back pressure resulting an uncontrolled pitch down
> of the nose. This was cured using inverted slots as you say but the point I
> am making is that it is a different issue to the stall of the main wing
> where you want the nose to drop to recover. The Cardinal issue occured
> during the flare when you want to keep the nose up and it wouldn't leading
> to a porpoise. It was not an issue for the stall you are talking aboutin
> fact it helped!!  Bill's problem sounds more like a CoG problem, ie., to far
> back such that the elevator cannot lift the tail to decrease AoA on the main
> planeor perhaps the elevator travel is limited/incorrectly rigged.
>
> Regards John
>
> Martindale Family
> 29 Jane Circuit
> TOORMINA NSW 2452
> AUSTRALIA
>
> ph:  61 2 66584767
> email: johnja...@optusnet.com.au
> web: http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/johnjanet/Martindale.htm
> - Original Message -
> From: "D F Lively" <riksh...@interl.net>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 1:53 PM
> Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
> > Bill:
> >
> > I can not address this with respect to KR aircraft but do have knowledge
> > of an elevator stall problem in the early units of a certified craft that
> > led to ADs.  The early Cessna Cardinals(177s) with the Laminair flow wing
> > had such a problem  That crafy has a "Flying Tail" and is a high wing.
> > Cessna cured that problem by adding LE slots to the elevator.  I do not
> > know whether it help or not but perhaps some examination of  the elevator
> > stall problem assciated with the Cardinal problem may serve as a basis for
> > understandin of elevator stall problems cause and cure.  Perhaps a direct
> > inquiry of  Deihl himself will shed some light.
> >
> > Just a suggestion as it sounds way to importent to let slide.
> >
> > Don
> >  
> >
> > countryhomeprint wrote:
> >
> >> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any
> >> experimental aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for
> >> Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings?
> >> N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR
> >> feels tail heavy. I am unable to establish a true stall due to the
> >> uncontrolled pitching up of the wings prior to stall. It feels as if the
> >> horizontal stab and elevator are stalling prior to the wings. This
> >> happened during the first stall approach and a stall approach will not
> >> happen again until the problem is solved. Has anyone experienced this?
> >> Anyone have a thought as to WHY. This could be a dangerous situation.
> >>
> >> Bill Page
> >> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
> >> ___
> >> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Larry Flesner]

>  Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the 
> standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the 
> standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I am unable to 
> establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of the 
> wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and 
> elevator are stalling prior to the wings.
>Bill Page
++

As others have mentioned, the Diehl  skins should have no effect on the C.G.
range of your KR.  Their only difference,over the plans built wing, is a bit of
additional length.  Can you give us more info on the stall / pitch-up?  Where
EXACTLY does the C.G. of your KR fall in relation to the plans?  What did
you do to recover or did the KR recover on it's own by dropping the nose?
Do you know the angle of incidence your wing is set at?  Did it require a lot
of back stick to hold the nose up to approach the stall?  Was the ball centered
at the time of "pitch-up"?  Consider the following.  If it's a CG problem and
your KR is tail heavy, the recovery would seem difficult or 
impossible.  If it's
nose heavy, and you stalled the HS / elevator, it seems the nose should have
pitched down.   There are too many variables between KR's to GUESS what
your problem might be without additional info.

While my KR is stretched 24 inches, the wing and tail are plans built and
set to "plans" angles.  My KR has a VERY GENTLE stall with complete
aileron and elevator control up to and through the stall.  I get no wing
break off or other unexpected reactions.  This seems to be the "normal"
stall characteristics for most KR's and how  your KR ought to perform.
I can understand your wanting to determine the cause before additional
testing.  When unexpected things happen in a new airplane it can scare
the hell out of you.

Larry Flesner

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[VIRGIL N SALISBURY]

Some one mentioned DECALAGE at one time, Virg

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 08:25:57 -0600 Larry Flesner
 writes:
> 
> 
> >  Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the 
> 
> > standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the 
> > standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I am unable to 
> > establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of the 
> 
> > wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and 
> > elevator are stalling prior to the wings.
> >Bill Page
>
+
+
> 
> As others have mentioned, the Diehl  skins should have no effect on 
> the C.G.
> range of your KR.  Their only difference,over the plans built wing, 
> is a bit of
> additional length.  Can you give us more info on the stall / 
> pitch-up?  Where
> EXACTLY does the C.G. of your KR fall in relation to the plans?  
> What did
> you do to recover or did the KR recover on it's own by dropping the 
> nose?
> Do you know the angle of incidence your wing is set at?  Did it 
> require a lot
> of back stick to hold the nose up to approach the stall?  Was the 
> ball centered
> at the time of "pitch-up"?  Consider the following.  If it's a CG 
> problem and
> your KR is tail heavy, the recovery would seem difficult or 
> impossible.  If it's
> nose heavy, and you stalled the HS / elevator, it seems the nose 
> should have
> pitched down.   There are too many variables between KR's to GUESS 
> what
> your problem might be without additional info.
> 
> While my KR is stretched 24 inches, the wing and tail are plans 
> built and
> set to "plans" angles.  My KR has a VERY GENTLE stall with complete
> aileron and elevator control up to and through the stall.  I get no 
> wing
> break off or other unexpected reactions.  This seems to be the 
> "normal"
> stall characteristics for most KR's and how  your KR ought to 
> perform.
> I can understand your wanting to determine the cause before 
> additional
> testing.  When unexpected things happen in a new airplane it can 
> scare
> the hell out of you.
> 
> Larry Flesner
> 
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> 


Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
Miami ,Fl

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Kenneth B. Jones]

My Kr-2 has Diehl skins.  "Power at idle" stalls at about 900 lbs. occur at 
50 KIAS.  Stalls are proceeded by enough shaking and shuddering for me to 
notice.  The plane is controllable throughout the stall and will recover 
even with the stick held full aft.  The plane has no tendancy to drop a 
wing.  Of course it just stalls again if no action is taken, and each time 
it stalls, the pitch down is greater and so is the pitch up after recovery. 
I have held the stick full aft through about 3 or 4 stall and recovery 
cycles with increasing pitch excursions.  I'm guessing these cycles took 2 
to 3 seconds each, but I really don't have a clue how accurate that is.

Does the fact that the Diehl wings are longer (and tapered over this 
additional length) reduce the MAC a small amount and therefore reduce the 
C.G envelope?  Even if true, perhaps it's a small amount.

Ken Jones, kenbjo...@cinci.rr.com
Sharonville, OH
N5834, aka The Porkopolis Flying Pig, KR-2
KHAO
155 Hours




- Original Message - 
From: "countryhomeprint" <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any experimental 
> aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for Dan Deihl 
> wing skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls 
> within the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I 
> am unable to establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of 
> the wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and elevator 
> are stalling prior to the wings. This happened during the first stall 
> approach and a stall approach will not happen again until the problem is 
> solved. Has anyone experienced this? Anyone have a thought as to WHY. This 
> could be a dangerous situation.
>
> Bill Page
> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Jack Cooper]

Bill

Have you had someone else review your W figures?? A double check of the
figures with different eyes may be very helpfull. This is an important
issue and a review of the figures wouldn't hurt.

Jack Cooper


> [Original Message]
> From: countryhomeprint <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net>
> To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
> Date: 3/29/2006 9:16:41 PM
> Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any
experimental aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for
Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's
cg falls within the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail
heavy. I am unable to establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled
pitching up of the wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab
and elevator are stalling prior to the wings. This happened during the
first stall approach and a stall approach will not happen again until the
problem is solved. Has anyone experienced this? Anyone have a thought as to
WHY. This could be a dangerous situation.
>
> Bill Page
> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Jack Cooper]

Dan

Be sure to let all of know what you learn from Dan Diehl. Where are you on
the engine installation?

Jack Cooper


> [Original Message]
> From: Dan Heath <da...@alltel.net>
> To: <kr...@mylist.net>
> Date: 3/29/2006 10:28:23 PM
> Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
> I believe that the CG must be the same as it is the same airfoil.  I too
am
> concerned about the difference between the stock wing and the Diehl
wings. 
> Before I fly mine, I intend to ask Dan what to expect. 
>  
> See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
> See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
> There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for
building
> is OVER.
> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
> ---Original Message---
>  Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the
standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the standard
KR-2, 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

Larry, my cg falls about an inch from the front limit empty. With full gas 
it falls about 3/4 inch from front limit. This was determined with two 
calculations with two different datum points. Each fell at approximately the 
same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg falls 
approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this far 
farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less. The 
incidence is exactly as the plans call for. I used an electronic level to 
determine this. The dihedral is exactly as the plans call for, again 
determined by electronic level. Also the twist at tip is right on. Ball was 
centered. Reaction was such that there was instant stick forward and it 
recovered. Stall was never reached, however, the airspeed was reading 
between 48 and 50 mph.
After Sun n Fun I am going to place 10 pounds forward and re-calculate the 
cg. Then 15 lbs., 20# --- until I reach the center of the cg range. Then a 
careful flight will be made. Verified level flight at 2500 feet at 2800 rpm 
is 135 mph.

Bill Page
boliverp...@bellsouth.net

- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Flesner" <fles...@verizon.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


>
>
>>  Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the
>> standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the
>> standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I am unable to
>> establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of the
>> wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and
>> elevator are stalling prior to the wings.
>>Bill Page
> ++
>
> As others have mentioned, the Diehl  skins should have no effect on the 
> C.G.
> range of your KR.  Their only difference,over the plans built wing, is a 
> bit of
> additional length.  Can you give us more info on the stall / pitch-up? 
> Where
> EXACTLY does the C.G. of your KR fall in relation to the plans?  What did
> you do to recover or did the KR recover on it's own by dropping the nose?
> Do you know the angle of incidence your wing is set at?  Did it require a 
> lot
> of back stick to hold the nose up to approach the stall?  Was the ball 
> centered
> at the time of "pitch-up"?  Consider the following.  If it's a CG problem 
> and
> your KR is tail heavy, the recovery would seem difficult or
> impossible.  If it's
> nose heavy, and you stalled the HS / elevator, it seems the nose should 
> have
> pitched down.   There are too many variables between KR's to GUESS what
> your problem might be without additional info.
>
> While my KR is stretched 24 inches, the wing and tail are plans built and
> set to "plans" angles.  My KR has a VERY GENTLE stall with complete
> aileron and elevator control up to and through the stall.  I get no wing
> break off or other unexpected reactions.  This seems to be the "normal"
> stall characteristics for most KR's and how  your KR ought to perform.
> I can understand your wanting to determine the cause before additional
> testing.  When unexpected things happen in a new airplane it can scare
> the hell out of you.
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

Jack, I had 2 different cg calculations done by two different A & P's using 
two different datum points and the results came out within 1/4 inch of each 
other. These calculations came out to be approximately 1 inch from the front 
limit of the cg envelope. (9 inches from front edge of wing)
Bill Page
boliverp...@bellsouth.net

- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Cooper" <kr2coo...@earthlink.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:22 AM
Subject: RE: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Bill
>
> Have you had someone else review your W figures?? A double check of the
> figures with different eyes may be very helpfull. This is an important
> issue and a review of the figures wouldn't hurt.
>
> Jack Cooper
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: countryhomeprint <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net>
>> To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
>> Date: 3/29/2006 9:16:41 PM
>> Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>>
>> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any
> experimental aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for
> Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings? 
> N880AB's
> cg falls within the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail
> heavy. I am unable to establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled
> pitching up of the wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal 
> stab
> and elevator are stalling prior to the wings. This happened during the
> first stall approach and a stall approach will not happen again until the
> problem is solved. Has anyone experienced this? Anyone have a thought as 
> to
> WHY. This could be a dangerous situation.
>>
>> Bill Page
>> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

It will be next week before I will contact Dan Diehl as I will be at fun and 
sun. Leaving on Saturday, coming home on Thursday. I will let you know the 
final results of anything I do.

Bill Page
boliverp...@bellsouth.net
- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Cooper" <kr2coo...@earthlink.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Dan
>
> Be sure to let all of know what you learn from Dan Diehl. Where are you on
> the engine installation?
>
> Jack Cooper
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Dan Heath <da...@alltel.net>
>> To: <kr...@mylist.net>
>> Date: 3/29/2006 10:28:23 PM
>> Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>>
>> I believe that the CG must be the same as it is the same airfoil.  I too
> am
>> concerned about the difference between the stock wing and the Diehl
> wings.
>> Before I fly mine, I intend to ask Dan what to expect.
>>
>> See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics
>> See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
>> There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for
> building
>> is OVER.
>> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
>> ---Original Message---
>>  Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the
> standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the standard
> KR-2,
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Dan Heath]

Sorry, didn't read this one first.  Yours comes out very much like mine does
  If I ever get to fly it, I'll let you know how it compares in flight.  You
know, the KR wants to fly, nose down, and more nose down, the faster it goes
  Maybe, this is some of what you are experiencing.

See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for building
is OVER.
Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
---Original Message---
Each fell at approximately the
same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg falls
approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this far
farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less. 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[John Martindale]

Hi Bill

Most odd :-)

Those figures seem similiar to mine and others. You should be able to keep 
within 8 to 12 " aft of leading edge in most loadings. Although RR states 
16" as the rear limit, many have experienced danger back there.

The airfoil should produce a nose down attitude as the stall  breaks because 
the Centre of Lift moves rapidly backwards behind the CoG. As Ken said this 
powerful moment can occur in the KR even with the stick kept back. Prior to 
the stall in level flight the nose will seem really high because a large 
Angle of Attack is needed to offset lack of airspeed and maintain 
liftguess you know all that though :-)

Which way does the nose move if you give her a burst of power in that crazy 
attitude? Maybe a test pilot could help you out a bit. Maybe you could hang 
the engine out front a bit more?? Hard to tell when ya upside down on the 
world in Australia.

John



- Original Message - 
From: "countryhomeprint" <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net>
To: <kr2coo...@earthlink.net>; "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Jack, I had 2 different cg calculations done by two different A & P's 
> using
> two different datum points and the results came out within 1/4 inch of 
> each
> other. These calculations came out to be approximately 1 inch from the 
> front
> limit of the cg envelope. (9 inches from front edge of wing)
> Bill Page
> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Jack Cooper" <kr2coo...@earthlink.net>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:22 AM
> Subject: RE: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
>
>> Bill
>>
>> Have you had someone else review your W figures?? A double check of the
>> figures with different eyes may be very helpfull. This is an important
>> issue and a review of the figures wouldn't hurt.
>>
>> Jack Cooper
>>
>>
>>> [Original Message]
>>> From: countryhomeprint <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net>
>>> To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
>>> Date: 3/29/2006 9:16:41 PM
>>> Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>>>
>>> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any
>> experimental aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range for
>> Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings?
>> N880AB's
>> cg falls within the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR feels 
>> tail
>> heavy. I am unable to establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled
>> pitching up of the wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal
>> stab
>> and elevator are stalling prior to the wings. This happened during the
>> first stall approach and a stall approach will not happen again until the
>> problem is solved. Has anyone experienced this? Anyone have a thought as
>> to
>> WHY. This could be a dangerous situation.
>>>
>>> Bill Page
>>> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
>>> ___
>>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

I have in the plans to install a engine mount which is 3" longer. Also a 
belly board to help slow the plane down in the pattern. Also, a test pilot 
is helping me solve these problems.

- Original Message - 
From: "John Martindale" <johnja...@optusnet.com.au>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Hi Bill
>
> Most odd :-)
>
> Those figures seem similiar to mine and others. You should be able to keep
> within 8 to 12 " aft of leading edge in most loadings. Although RR states
> 16" as the rear limit, many have experienced danger back there.
>
> The airfoil should produce a nose down attitude as the stall  breaks 
> because
> the Centre of Lift moves rapidly backwards behind the CoG. As Ken said 
> this
> powerful moment can occur in the KR even with the stick kept back. Prior 
> to
> the stall in level flight the nose will seem really high because a large
> Angle of Attack is needed to offset lack of airspeed and maintain
> liftguess you know all that though :-)
>
> Which way does the nose move if you give her a burst of power in that 
> crazy
> attitude? Maybe a test pilot could help you out a bit. Maybe you could 
> hang
> the engine out front a bit more?? Hard to tell when ya upside down on the
> world in Australia.
>
> John
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "countryhomeprint" <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net>
> To: <kr2coo...@earthlink.net>; "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:51 AM
> Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
>
>> Jack, I had 2 different cg calculations done by two different A & P's
>> using
>> two different datum points and the results came out within 1/4 inch of
>> each
>> other. These calculations came out to be approximately 1 inch from the
>> front
>> limit of the cg envelope. (9 inches from front edge of wing)
>> Bill Page
>> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Jack Cooper" <kr2coo...@earthlink.net>
>> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:22 AM
>> Subject: RE: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>>
>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>> Have you had someone else review your W figures?? A double check of 
>>> the
>>> figures with different eyes may be very helpfull. This is an important
>>> issue and a review of the figures wouldn't hurt.
>>>
>>> Jack Cooper
>>>
>>>
>>>> [Original Message]
>>>> From: countryhomeprint <countryhomepr...@bellsouth.net>
>>>> To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net>
>>>> Date: 3/29/2006 9:16:41 PM
>>>> Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>>>>
>>>> Recently the first flight was made in 880AB. As with most any
>>> experimental aircraft a few problems occur. Question? Is the cg range 
>>> for
>>> Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the standard KR-2 wings?
>>> N880AB's
>>> cg falls within the limits for the standard KR-2, however my KR feels
>>> tail
>>> heavy. I am unable to establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled
>>> pitching up of the wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal
>>> stab
>>> and elevator are stalling prior to the wings. This happened during the
>>> first stall approach and a stall approach will not happen again until 
>>> the
>>> problem is solved. Has anyone experienced this? Anyone have a thought as
>>> to
>>> WHY. This could be a dangerous situation.
>>>>
>>>> Bill Page
>>>> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
>>>> ___
>>>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>>>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>>>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Jim Faughn]

Did you actually measure the CG when you were sitting in the plane or is
this a theoretical calculation?

Jim Faughn
891JF

-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
Of countryhomeprint
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:21 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

Larry, my cg falls about an inch from the front limit empty. With full gas 
it falls about 3/4 inch from front limit. This was determined with two 
calculations with two different datum points. Each fell at approximately the

same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg falls 
approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this far 
farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less. The 
incidence is exactly as the plans call for. I used an electronic level to 
determine this. The dihedral is exactly as the plans call for, again 
determined by electronic level. Also the twist at tip is right on. Ball was 
centered. Reaction was such that there was instant stick forward and it 
recovered. Stall was never reached, however, the airspeed was reading 
between 48 and 50 mph.
After Sun n Fun I am going to place 10 pounds forward and re-calculate the 
cg. Then 15 lbs., 20# --- until I reach the center of the cg range. Then a 
careful flight will be made. Verified level flight at 2500 feet at 2800 rpm 
is 135 mph.

Bill Page
boliverp...@bellsouth.net

- Original Message - 
From: "Larry Flesner" <fles...@verizon.net>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:25 AM
Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


>
>
>>  Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the
>> standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the
>> standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I am unable to
>> establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of the
>> wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and
>> elevator are stalling prior to the wings.
>>Bill Page
> ++
>
> As others have mentioned, the Diehl  skins should have no effect on the 
> C.G.
> range of your KR.  Their only difference,over the plans built wing, is a 
> bit of
> additional length.  Can you give us more info on the stall / pitch-up? 
> Where
> EXACTLY does the C.G. of your KR fall in relation to the plans?  What did
> you do to recover or did the KR recover on it's own by dropping the nose?
> Do you know the angle of incidence your wing is set at?  Did it require a 
> lot
> of back stick to hold the nose up to approach the stall?  Was the ball 
> centered
> at the time of "pitch-up"?  Consider the following.  If it's a CG problem 
> and
> your KR is tail heavy, the recovery would seem difficult or
> impossible.  If it's
> nose heavy, and you stalled the HS / elevator, it seems the nose should 
> have
> pitched down.   There are too many variables between KR's to GUESS what
> your problem might be without additional info.
>
> While my KR is stretched 24 inches, the wing and tail are plans built and
> set to "plans" angles.  My KR has a VERY GENTLE stall with complete
> aileron and elevator control up to and through the stall.  I get no wing
> break off or other unexpected reactions.  This seems to be the "normal"
> stall characteristics for most KR's and how  your KR ought to perform.
> I can understand your wanting to determine the cause before additional
> testing.  When unexpected things happen in a new airplane it can scare
> the hell out of you.
>
> Larry Flesner
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 



___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[VIRGIL N SALISBURY]

Foreward C G should cause a tail LIGHT condition, Virg

On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:10:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) "Dan Heath"
 writes:
> Sorry, didn't read this one first.  Yours comes out very much like 
> mine does
>   If I ever get to fly it, I'll let you know how it compares in 
> flight.  You
> know, the KR wants to fly, nose down, and more nose down, the faster 
> it goes
>   Maybe, this is some of what you are experiencing.
>  
> See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
> See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
> There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for 
> building
> is OVER.
> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
> ---Original Message---
> Each fell at approximately the
> same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg 
> falls
> approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this 
> far
> farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
> However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less. 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at 
> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> 
> 


Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
Miami ,Fl

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Mark Jones]

Virg, I am glad you pointed that out. Bill states tail heavy and I do not
see how that is possible with a forward CG. When I read that I just assumed
Bill meant the tail was light Jim, you also made a very good point about the
moment used for the pilot. Anything that is added after empty weight
calculation must be calculated for that particular moment and not assumed.
Bill, can you cut and paste a copy of your CG calculations so we can review
them? Where are your fuel tanks? Wings, header or both?

Mark Jones (N886MJ)
Wales, WI  USA
E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com
Visit my NEW
KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at www.flykr2s.com



- Original Message - 
From: "VIRGIL N SALISBURY" <virg...@juno.com>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Foreward C G should cause a tail LIGHT condition, Virg
>
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:10:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) "Dan Heath"
> <da...@alltel.net> writes:
> > Sorry, didn't read this one first.  Yours comes out very much like
> > mine does
> >   If I ever get to fly it, I'll let you know how it compares in
> > flight.  You
> > know, the KR wants to fly, nose down, and more nose down, the faster
> > it goes
> >   Maybe, this is some of what you are experiencing.
> >
> > See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics
> > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
> > There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for
> > building
> > is OVER.
> > Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
> > ---Original Message---
> > Each fell at approximately the
> > same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg
> > falls
> > approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this
> > far
> > farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
> > However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less.
> > ___
> > Search the KRnet Archives at
> > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
> >
> >
>
>
> Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> Miami ,Fl
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

Weight and Balance was calculated using the standard method. It was 
calculated 2 times by two different A & P's using aircraft electronic scales 
at the Raspet Flight Research Lab at Mississippi State University. Both 
calculations using 2 different datum points gave results within 1/4 inch of 
each other. I was sitting in the plane when the pilot calculation was made.
Bill
boliverp...@bellsouth.net

- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Faughn" <jfau...@socket.net>
To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: RE: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Did you actually measure the CG when you were sitting in the plane or is
> this a theoretical calculation?
>
> Jim Faughn
> 891JF
>
> -Original Message-
> From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf
> Of countryhomeprint
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 11:21 AM
> To: KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
> Larry, my cg falls about an inch from the front limit empty. With full gas
> it falls about 3/4 inch from front limit. This was determined with two
> calculations with two different datum points. Each fell at approximately 
> the
>
> same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg falls
> approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this far
> farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
> However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less. The
> incidence is exactly as the plans call for. I used an electronic level to
> determine this. The dihedral is exactly as the plans call for, again
> determined by electronic level. Also the twist at tip is right on. Ball 
> was
> centered. Reaction was such that there was instant stick forward and it
> recovered. Stall was never reached, however, the airspeed was reading
> between 48 and 50 mph.
> After Sun n Fun I am going to place 10 pounds forward and re-calculate the
> cg. Then 15 lbs., 20# --- until I reach the center of the cg range. Then a
> careful flight will be made. Verified level flight at 2500 feet at 2800 
> rpm
> is 135 mph.
>
> Bill Page
> boliverp...@bellsouth.net
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Larry Flesner" <fles...@verizon.net>
> To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 8:25 AM
> Subject: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
>
>>
>>
>>>  Is the cg range for Dan Deihl wing skin wings the same as for the
>>> standard KR-2 wings? N880AB's cg falls within the limits for the
>>> standard KR-2, however my KR feels tail heavy. I am unable to
>>> establish a true stall due to the uncontrolled pitching up of the
>>> wings prior to stall. It feels as if the horizontal stab and
>>> elevator are stalling prior to the wings.
>>>Bill Page
>> ++
>>
>> As others have mentioned, the Diehl  skins should have no effect on the
>> C.G.
>> range of your KR.  Their only difference,over the plans built wing, is a
>> bit of
>> additional length.  Can you give us more info on the stall / pitch-up?
>> Where
>> EXACTLY does the C.G. of your KR fall in relation to the plans?  What did
>> you do to recover or did the KR recover on it's own by dropping the nose?
>> Do you know the angle of incidence your wing is set at?  Did it require a
>> lot
>> of back stick to hold the nose up to approach the stall?  Was the ball
>> centered
>> at the time of "pitch-up"?  Consider the following.  If it's a CG problem
>> and
>> your KR is tail heavy, the recovery would seem difficult or
>> impossible.  If it's
>> nose heavy, and you stalled the HS / elevator, it seems the nose should
>> have
>> pitched down.   There are too many variables between KR's to GUESS what
>> your problem might be without additional info.
>>
>> While my KR is stretched 24 inches, the wing and tail are plans built and
>> set to "plans" angles.  My KR has a VERY GENTLE stall with complete
>> aileron and elevator control up to and through the stall.  I get no wing
>> break off or other unexpected reactions.  This seems to be the "normal"
>> stall characteristics for most KR's and how  your KR ought to perform.
>> I can understand your wanting to determine the cause before additional
>> testing.  When unexpected things happen in a new airplane it can scare
>> the hell out of you.
>>
>> Larry Flesner
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

The slower the airspeed, the lighter the stick becomes in the back position.
- Original Message - 
From: "VIRGIL N SALISBURY" <virg...@juno.com>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


>Foreward C G should cause a tail LIGHT condition, Virg
> 
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:10:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) "Dan Heath"
> <da...@alltel.net> writes:
>> Sorry, didn't read this one first.  Yours comes out very much like 
>> mine does
>>   If I ever get to fly it, I'll let you know how it compares in 
>> flight.  You
>> know, the KR wants to fly, nose down, and more nose down, the faster 
>> it goes
>>   Maybe, this is some of what you are experiencing.
>>  
>> See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
>> See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
>> There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for 
>> building
>> is OVER.
>> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
>> ---Original Message---
>> Each fell at approximately the
>> same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg 
>> falls
>> approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this 
>> far
>> farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
>> However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less. 
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at 
>> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> Miami ,Fl
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[countryhomeprint]

Mark, the calculations are in my KR. I will retrieve them and send you a 
copy.
Bill

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Jones" <flyk...@wi.rr.com>
To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


> Virg, I am glad you pointed that out. Bill states tail heavy and I do not
> see how that is possible with a forward CG. When I read that I just 
> assumed
> Bill meant the tail was light Jim, you also made a very good point about 
> the
> moment used for the pilot. Anything that is added after empty weight
> calculation must be calculated for that particular moment and not assumed.
> Bill, can you cut and paste a copy of your CG calculations so we can 
> review
> them? Where are your fuel tanks? Wings, header or both?
>
> Mark Jones (N886MJ)
> Wales, WI  USA
> E-mail me at flyk...@wi.rr.com
> Visit my NEW
> KR-2S CorvAIRCRAFT web site at www.flykr2s.com
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "VIRGIL N SALISBURY" <virg...@juno.com>
> To: <kr...@mylist.net>
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:48 PM
> Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins
>
>
>> Foreward C G should cause a tail LIGHT condition, Virg
>>
>> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:10:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) "Dan Heath"
>> <da...@alltel.net> writes:
>> > Sorry, didn't read this one first.  Yours comes out very much like
>> > mine does
>> >   If I ever get to fly it, I'll let you know how it compares in
>> > flight.  You
>> > know, the KR wants to fly, nose down, and more nose down, the faster
>> > it goes
>> >   Maybe, this is some of what you are experiencing.
>> >
>> > See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics
>> > See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
>> > There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for
>> > building
>> > is OVER.
>> > Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
>> > ---Original Message---
>> > Each fell at approximately the
>> > same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg
>> > falls
>> > approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this
>> > far
>> > farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
>> > However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less.
>> > ___
>> > Search the KRnet Archives at
>> > http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
>> www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
>> Miami ,Fl
>>
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>>
>
>
>
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html 

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Mark Jones]

Bill,
The KR elevator, especially if stock is not that large compared to
airplanes you are used to flying and stalling. In a 172 for instance,
that is a big heavy airplane with a large elevator and it takes a lot of
elevator to stall it. There are large forces on a 172 elevator due to
the large surface area and the prop blast hitting it. The KR is a very
light airplane with a relatively small elevator. When I stall mine, I do
not have heavy elevator forces that I recall nor does it take a lot of
elevator to get the nose pointed way up. I may be barking up the wrong
tree here, but the KR is a very unique airplane which flies nothing like
any spam can you are used to. You may not have any problem at all but
only think you do because you are not yet familiar with or comfortable
with the characteristics of the KR. If some of you other experienced KR
Pilots disagree with me please chime in now. It appears Bill has his
ducks in a row with the CG calculations. Bill, if you have any
experienced KR Pilots near you, maybe you should let him/her fly it and
see what his/her reaction is.

Mark Jones (N886MJ) 
Wales, WI 
Visit my web site: http://www.flykr2s.com
Email: mailto:flyk...@wi.rr.com 



-Original Message-
From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-boun...@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of countryhomeprint
Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 7:13 AM
To: KRnet
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


The slower the airspeed, the lighter the stick becomes in the back
position.
- Original Message - 
From: "VIRGIL N SALISBURY" <virg...@juno.com>
To: <kr...@mylist.net>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: KR> cg with Deihl wing skins


>Foreward C G should cause a tail LIGHT condition, Virg
> 
> On Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:10:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) "Dan Heath"
> <da...@alltel.net> writes:
>> Sorry, didn't read this one first.  Yours comes out very much like 
>> mine does
>>   If I ever get to fly it, I'll let you know how it compares in 
>> flight.  You
>> know, the KR wants to fly, nose down, and more nose down, the faster 
>> it goes
>>   Maybe, this is some of what you are experiencing.
>>  
>> See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics 
>> See you in Mt. Vernon - 2006 - KR Gathering
>> There is a time for building and a time for FLYING and the time for 
>> building
>> is OVER.
>> Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC
>> ---Original Message---
>> Each fell at approximately the
>> same distance from the front limit. With a 180 # pilot, the cg 
>> falls
>> approximately 1 1/2 inches from the front limit. With the cg this 
>> far
>> farward it could create a tail heavy situation.
>> However, as the craft slows, the back stick forces become less. 
>> ___
>> Search the KRnet Archives at 
>> http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
>> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
>> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Virgil N. Salisbury - AMSOIL
> www.lubedealer.com/salisbury
> Miami ,Fl
> 
> ___
> Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net
> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html


___
Search the KRnet Archives at http://www.maddyhome.com/krsrch/index.jsp
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please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html

KR> cg with Deihl wing skins

[Brian Kraut]

No one has brought up that if you have a tail heavy condition you will have
one heck of a handfull just trying to fly the plane straight and level.  You
may not have noticed if you have been flying very sensitive aerobatic planes
for the past few years, but if you have spent most of your time in more
docile planes and managed to fly the KR without wetting your pants you
likely do not have a tail heavy condition.  Just the same, like everyone
else said, it is a good idea to verify where your CG is before you go
further.

Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com