Re: Runtime changing of timezones
On Wed, Mar 17, 2004, Nadav Har'El wrote about Re: Runtime changing of timezones: .. I can't find now a newspaper article on this issue (can somebody find a pointer?), but what I remember reading is that people complained that Yom Haazmaut happens on Monday this year according to the normal He Be-Iyyar date. .. You can find the new Yom-Haazmaut-is-rarely-in-He-Be'Iyyar law in http://www.knesset.gov.il/laws/special/heb/chok_yom_hazikaron.htm It is listed as having passed kria rishona, but most likely by now it already passed all the kriot and is a law :( So it looks official... Time to patch all the Hebrew-Calendar software... -- Nadav Har'El|Sunday, Mar 21 2004, 28 Adar 5764 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Give Yogi a rifle. Support your right to http://nadav.harel.org.il |arm bears! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand this completly (I've been through this myself when I admin'ed at HUJI CS), and you are certainly right with your concernes. I just think you are looking at the wrong direction. Existing tools will help you do a pull protocol (cron+ftp, for instance, BTW - NTP is a pull protocol too). If you'll get down to write a push protocol (a mistake, IMHO, since clients go up and down all the time and the server won't be able to track them all) then you'll have to write your own protocol, and by then I don't see the advantage of piggy-backing on NTP of all things. Look at this in another way - just like you setup NTP clients on all the machines you are responsible for, setup another procedure to pull the timezone file. Ok- mercy- I give up ntp. The point I was trying to make is that we all should get together and do it the same way. Let's try to make the script to run these updates part of standard distributions, part of the same rpm that distributes the TZ files in the first place maybe. Let it add a couple cronjobs/year which check: am I set to Israeli time, if yes- update zicfile, if no- exit. why shouldn't this be transparent to linux users? yonah yonah Cheers, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
18 2004, 11:25,Yonah Russ: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I understand this completly (I've been through this myself when I admin'ed at HUJI CS), and you are certainly right with your concernes. I just think you are looking at the wrong direction. Existing tools will help you do a pull protocol (cron+ftp, for instance, BTW - NTP is a pull protocol too). If you'll get down to write a push protocol (a mistake, IMHO, since clients go up and down all the time and the server won't be able to track them all) then you'll have to write your own protocol, and by then I don't see the advantage of piggy-backing on NTP of all things. Look at this in another way - just like you setup NTP clients on all the machines you are responsible for, setup another procedure to pull the timezone file. Ok- mercy- I give up ntp. The point I was trying to make is that we all should get together and do it the same way. Let's try to make the script to run these updates part of standard distributions, part of the same rpm that distributes the TZ files in the first place maybe. Let it add a couple cronjobs/year which check: am I set to Israeli time, if yes- update zicfile, if no- exit. why shouldn't this be transparent to linux users? You'll have major problems with that, especially the part where you assume that everyone is connected to the internet all the time. The fact is that I don't find it necessary at all - just keep your glibc up to date and you always have the relevant timezone files. I've used RedHat, Mandrake and SuSE and after the first time DST automaticly kicked in I didn't think more of it. I don't think its an exageration to expect linux workstations to update their glibc at least once a year - and that as transparent as you can get: look at windows users - they do it all the time. -- Oded ::.. 16. don't do that, it'll crash the sys SHIT --Top 100 things you don't want the sysadmin to say To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Quoting guy keren, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: ftp://ftp.cs.huji.ac.il/pub/tz/israel (look at the 'README' file) for easy instructions for the madness called israeli summer-time ;) the fun ain't over. just last week I read that Poraz plans to move us one time zone to the east... GMT+3 in winter and GMT+4 in summer! Like they had in the 1950s... life isn't dull :-) Ouch. Given the extent of the interaction I - as so many others in this country - have with people living 7, 8, or 10 hours to the West this is not going to be fun. I hope even Poraz is not so stupid. I used to live in a big industrial city that was 1 hour to the East of Moscow (about 30 minutes ahead astronomically). The authorities in that country had no qualms whatsoever about messing with space-time, but at least they did it in the right direction, decreeing that the time should be the same as in Moscow to improve communication. The decree time was switched on and off several times, and so was daylight saving time - independently. One amusing effect of that is that I am unable to tell an astrologer the hour of my birth without additional research. It actually helped me to dismiss several offers to create a personal horoscope. ;-) -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: however memorial day (or rather, memorial weekend), Thanksgiving and I think even halloween, not to mention christian events like ash sunday and good friday, are often celebrated on second sunday of february or last friday of September and similar dynamic dates. Some American holidays extend weekends by being held on Mondays. Labor Day comes to mind. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Yonah Russ wrote: Ok- mercy- I give up ntp. The point I was trying to make is that we all should get together and do it the same way. Let's try to make the script to run these updates part of standard distributions, part of the same rpm that distributes the TZ files in the first place maybe. Let it add a couple cronjobs/year which check: am I set to Israeli time, if yes- update zicfile, if no- exit. Go ahead - it sounds like a simple script. Once you write such a script you can propose it to FC/Debian/Gentoo etc. It wouldn't even merit its own package but can be merged into the existing timezone packages. Just drop the If Israel then... condition because: 1. See in http://www.twinsun.com/tz/tz-link.htm (and the tzdata* file under ftp://elsie.nci.nih.gov/pub/, reffered from the previous link) that as much as we think that we are so unique - timezones and DST's shift around the world all the time (pan unintended). 2. A user on a system abroad (e.g. a webmail user visiting Israel) might want to see IST/IDT even if the system time is not set to these timezones. why shouldn't this be transparent to linux users? It's pretty transparent for Debian users - I never had to deal with this on my Debian - the system is just up to date with no Israel specific tweaking. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Oded Arbel wrote: You'll have major problems with that, especially the part where you assume that everyone is connected to the internet all the time. You can enable/disable this, or you can do some clever tricks with if-up/if-down. The fact is that I don't find it necessary at all - just keep your glibc up to date and you always have the relevant timezone files. I've used RedHat, Mandrake and SuSE and after the first time DST automaticly kicked in I didn't think more of it. I don't think its an exageration to expect linux workstations to update their glibc at least once a year - and that as transparent as you can get: look at windows users - they do it all the time. Actually it sounds like an exageration to me - production systems want stability above all, and automatic updates of glibc doesn't fit that need (I mean - you want to test a setup on a staging system for a while before you change any bit in a production system), especially with such a critical component as glibc. A separate script to update just the timezone should make people a little more comfortable with automatic updates. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
18 2004, 13:20,[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Oded Arbel wrote: You'll have major problems with that, especially the part where you assume that everyone is connected to the internet all the time. You can enable/disable this, or you can do some clever tricks with if-up/if-down. There are people who are not connected at all. besides, I don't want and dial home devices on my computer, especially not the kind that automaticly activate. I don't think its an exageration to expect linux workstations to update their glibc at least once a year - and that as transparent as you can get: look at windows users - they do it all the time. Actually it sounds like an exageration to me - production systems want stability above all, I'm not talking about production servers. note the word workstations. I'm refering to the kind of places where you want hands-off update of everything w/o bothering the user - linux desktops. I don't think its a stretch to expect linux desktop users to run up2date/rpmdrake/synaptic in order to get the latest _tried_and_tested_ packages from their distribution's package repositories. A separate script to update just the timezone should make people a little more comfortable with automatic updates. You can put that in production systems aka servers. I'm sure the admin for those systems is qualified enough to download a deb/rpm/whatnot package from somewhere and install it on her own. you don't need to get that as part of the distribution. said admin is also probably qualified enough to write her own update script given a well known interface and a reliable update source - for example, a CVS repository on HUJI or something containing properly versioned timezone files. -- Oded ::.. Reasons to Run Away 47-You uncover the vampire lord's casket for staking (after destroying his minions before sunset) to find it empty... To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED], from the post of Thu, 18 Mar: It's pretty transparent for Debian users - I never had to deal with this on my Debian - the system is just up to date with no Israel specific tweaking. I have opened bugs twice about DST starting or ending on the wrong times. they keep using old TZ files while the ones on HUJI get updated, I had to send them there to get a current version. it's still much better than the Windows situation. I worked in a few places that moved their time manually on the servers and stations since microsoft stopped supporting auto-DST in Israel. it drove them nuts when my linux sent the wrong hours on Email since they remained at UTC+2 and I was correctly at UTC+3. I would usually tell them to switch to Baghdad time to have the correct shift because at the time I didn't know how to edit the TZ definitions (it's hidden in MSDN somewhere), but it didn't solve all the calendar entries moving around. I prefer having to compile a little file once a year than have to mess with THAT... -- The colonel's secret recipe Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Runtime changing of timezones
Thank you for pointing out zic, I hope this helps to solve the israel summer-winter time issues. It also appears that run-time changes of the systemwide timezone are not truly possible. I guess we need to change the timezone, and perform a reboot. Not a problem b/c in reality these changes will only take place when the system is physically moving to a differnet timezone. Thanx for the help, nachum what _are_ you trying to achieve? are you trying to adjust the machine for daylight saving time changes? or you're running a test machine and testing some software that need to be tested in different timezones? in the former case, you are not supposed to touch the time-zone at all, but rather make sure that the TZ file you have is updated with the dates of daylight saving time's changes, and then the switch will be made automatically - man 'zic' for more information, and look at ftp://ftp.cs.huji.ac.il/pub/tz/israel (look at the 'README' file) for easy instructions for the madness called israeli summer-time ;) if you're talking about the later, i'm afraid tzselect cannot help - since (i pressume) you're using it to set the TZ environment variable - and this change does not effect existing processes. you _might_ be able to apply such a change to them by attaching a debugger to them and using it to invoke the relevant library function - but i'm not sure how various applications will react to such a change. if you change the time zone of the entire machine - perhaps this will effect currently-running applications. -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
On Wed, Mar 17, 2004, Ira Abramov wrote about Re: Runtime changing of timezones: Quoting guy keren, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: ftp://ftp.cs.huji.ac.il/pub/tz/israel (look at the 'README' file) for easy instructions for the madness called israeli summer-time ;) the fun ain't over. just last week I read that Poraz plans to move us one time zone to the east... GMT+3 in winter and GMT+4 in summer! Like they had in the 1950s... life isn't dull :-) And if moving the hours isn't enough, they are also planning to move days! Recently it was announced that the algorithm for determining the date of Yom Haaztmaut (as well as Yom Hazicaron and Yom Hashoa) will be changed this year, making all known Hebrew calendar software produce wrong results. What will they think of next? Hmm, wouldn't it be convenient if Succot is moved up two weeks, to reduce the chances of rain on your Succa? :) There should be a law preventing politicians from messing with our space-time continuum ;) -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Mar 17 2004, 24 Adar 5764 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-790466, ICQ 13349191 |A cat has claws ending its paws. A http://nadav.harel.org.il |sentence has a pause ending its clause. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
On Wed, Mar 17, 2004, Yonah Russ wrote about Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones: With such a huge community of techies, why can't we come up with a way to make this easier for all of us- or maybe someone has? It *is* easy. For example, on Redhat I just get the updated timezone files (I think they come with glibc updates, or something), sit back, and watch the time change automatically at exactly the right moment, and change back again exactly in the random moment that a bunch of Shinui and Shas politicians settled on. I don't have to do anything. [1] I then read the emails that pass around my company explaining how to change the time on Windows and what to do to fix incorrect hours in our calendar software, and giggle. [1] Well, not doing anything may be an exaggaration. I seem to remember that sometimes cron doesn't notice the changed time, and the solution is to restart it. Of course, a better solution would be to fix the bug in cron. I also seem to remember some issues with the times in /var/log/messages being off, but maybe this was fixed as I don't remember seeing this problem recently. -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Mar 17 2004, 24 Adar 5764 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-790466, ICQ 13349191 |If you tell the truth, you don't have to http://nadav.harel.org.il |remember anything. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The grand unified theory of Politics? ( was: Runtime changing of timezones)
On Wednesday 17 March 2004 10:24, Nadav Har'El wrote: There should be a law preventing politicians from messing with our space-time continuum ;) Interesting, are you suggesting that politicians somehow distort space-time? In the case of some politicians, like our prime minister, this is certainly well explained by Einstein's relativity theory but regarding other examples of that specie it does seem to require some adaptations of current fundamental theories in Physics. It may be worth while to do so, however, as it might provide insight to certain phenomena which are otherwise quite inexplicable in our current political system. Gilad :-) -- Gilad Ben-Yossef [EMAIL PROTECTED] Codefidence. A name you can trust (TM) http://www.codefidence.com I am Jack's Overwritten Stack Pointer -- Hackers Club, the movie = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Quoting Nadav Har'El, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: Recently it was announced that the algorithm for determining the date of Yom Haaztmaut (as well as Yom Hazicaron and Yom Hashoa) will be changed this year, making all known Hebrew calendar software produce wrong results. what?! where?! are they moving it to a civilian date or fixed-day-of-the-week a-la the US conventions? makes sense for something like Thanksgiving, but moving Independance day around is odd, since the exact date has significance... -- Your good luck charm Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The grand unified theory of Politics? ( was: Runtime changing of timezones)
Gilad Ben-Yossef wrote: On Wednesday 17 March 2004 10:24, Nadav Har'El wrote: There should be a law preventing politicians from messing with our space-time continuum ;) Interesting, are you suggesting that politicians somehow distort space-time? In the case of some politicians, like our prime minister, this is certainly well explained by Einstein's relativity theory but regarding other examples of that specie it does seem to require some adaptations of current fundamental theories in Physics. It may be worth while to do so, however, as it might provide insight to certain phenomena which are otherwise quite inexplicable in our current political system. Aha! But ours is a quantum based system with a high Heisenberg uncertainty constant, where the precise state of anything is indeterminate. Using the Foobar Duality Priciple, we deduce that the precise anything of the state is also indeterminate. Gilad :-) DAF = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Nadav Har'El, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: Recently it was announced that the algorithm for determining the date of Yom Haaztmaut (as well as Yom Hazicaron and Yom Hashoa) will be changed this year, making all known Hebrew calendar software produce wrong results. what?! where?! are they moving it to a civilian date or fixed-day-of-the-week a-la the US conventions? makes sense for something like Thanksgiving, but moving Independance day around is odd, since the exact date has significance... So, what date does the fourth of July happen this year? -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Systems Consulting http://www.lingnu.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
On Wed, Mar 17, 2004, Ira Abramov wrote about Re: Runtime changing of timezones: Quoting Nadav Har'El, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: Recently it was announced that the algorithm for determining the date of Yom Haaztmaut (as well as Yom Hazicaron and Yom Hashoa) will be changed this year, making all known Hebrew calendar software produce wrong results. what?! where?! are they moving it to a civilian date or fixed-day-of-the-week a-la the US conventions? makes sense for something like Thanksgiving, but moving Independance day around is odd, since the exact date has significance... No. It's not as simple as that. I can't find now a newspaper article on this issue (can somebody find a pointer?), but what I remember reading is that people complained that Yom Haazmaut happens on Monday this year according to the normal He Be-Iyyar date. What's wrong with Yom Haazmaut being on Monday? Nothing really... Except that it makes Yom Hazikkaron on Sunday, which in turn makes the Erev Yom Hazikkaron on Motsei Shabat. This in turn, supposedly, means that the people preparing the cerimonies need to work on Shabat, and also that the cerimonies will have to start very late, to allow families to start travelling after the Shabat. So, to solve this, the new rule supposedly says that when Yom Haazmaut is on a Monday, it is moved to Vav be-Iyyar, to the Tuesday. All this would make sense if this was the algorithm all along, but it wasn't, and changing it now pretty-much invalidates every Hebrew calendar software in existance, not to mention printed calendars (I know the Israeli universities are having a lot of mess now because someone changed the vacation days in the middle of a semester...). It also means that software now needs to have ugly if()s, to account for the rule chaning in a certain year. And now for a bit more detail: He be-Iyyar already can't happen on every day of the week, because of intrinsic rules in the Hebrew calendar that determine the day of pesach (15 in Nisan). He be-Iyyar can only fall on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday or Saturday. Friday and Saturday were already deamed undersirable for Yom Haazmaut, and caused it to move earlier (to 4 or 3 of Iyyar). But now politicians decided that Monday is also undesirable, moving the holiday to 6th of Iyyar. This means that the only chance we have for ever seeing the Holiday on He Be-Iyyar is when it happens on a Wednesday, which happens about once every 3 years. So teach your children: Yom Haazmaut is rarely in He Be-Iyyar. -- Nadav Har'El| Wednesday, Mar 17 2004, 24 Adar 5764 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Recursive, adj.: See Recursive http://nadav.harel.org.il | = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Quoting Shachar Shemesh, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: what?! where?! are they moving it to a civilian date or fixed-day-of-the-week a-la the US conventions? makes sense for something like Thanksgiving, but moving Independance day around is odd, since the exact date has significance... So, what date does the fourth of July happen this year? oddly enough on July fourth. however memorial day (or rather, memorial weekend), Thanksgiving and I think even halloween, not to mention christian events like ash sunday and good friday, are often celebrated on second sunday of february or last friday of September and similar dynamic dates. -- A real character Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Quoting Nadav Har'El, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: What's wrong with Yom Haazmaut being on Monday? Nothing really... Except that it makes Yom Hazikkaron on Sunday, which in turn makes the Erev Yom Hazikkaron on Motsei Shabat. This in turn, supposedly, means that after years of debating whether it makes ANY sense to bunch memorial day and independence day (I fealt rediculous and bad one year walking around town on memorial day buying meat and booze for the party on ID eve), the best solution they could find is move ID rather than memorial alone? I mean, ID's date has a meaning, memorial day can be a week before and holocaust day should be on Tisha b'av, where tradition had it for milenea. We must be the only stupid country in the world to annualy change the date of it's birth. Why celebrate it at all? :-/ most rediculous thing I have heard in years... So teach your children: Yom Haazmaut is rarely in He Be-Iyyar. Might as well move it to kaf-tet of November :- If ever there was proof that Israel is a theocracy rather than a democracy, this is it. Religion just stepped over one of the central civilian symbols of the country. I give up. -- The governor of California Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
I meant to solve the problem of israeli summer time in a way that we shouldn't have to update every individual station every year but rather that one computer be updated and let the update propogate automatically throughout israel. perhaps we could piggy back the timezone settings on the existing ntp infrastructure so that ntp.ac.il would propogate the correct timezone information to all the stations downstream yonah Shachar Shemesh wrote: Yonah Russ wrote: With such a huge community of techies, why can't we come up with a way to make this easier for all of us- or maybe someone has? yonah It's awfully easy, assuming you are not trying something irrelevant. If all you want is to get daylight saving at the apropriate time, you don't need to touch anything. This, of course, assumes you live in a country with predictable daylight saving. If you live in Israel, you need to keep your linux system up to date at least once a year, and your'e set. If, on the other hand, you want to move your computer from Israel to the US without terminating any process, you may find that some processes go on in their old time zone. Tough, but totally harmless. I think that once we understand what the problem is, we may be able to come up with a solution. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 13:35, Ira Abramov wrote: after years of debating whether it makes ANY sense to bunch memorial day and independence day (I fealt rediculous and bad one year walking around town on memorial day buying meat and booze for the party on ID eve), the best solution they could find is move ID rather than memorial alone? I mean, ID's date has a meaning, memorial day can be a week before and holocaust day should be on Tisha b'av, where tradition had it for milenea. Holocaust day shouldn't move to Tisha b'av. There's a reason for it's date - the day the Warsaw ghetto uprising began. Tisha b'av is a religious date, which most Israelies don't remember, or care about. Yuri -- Yuri Bronshtein [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 14:41:51 +0200, Yonah Russ russ (at) actcom.net.il wrote: perhaps we could piggy back the timezone settings on the existing ntp infrastructure so that ntp.ac.il would propogate the correct timezone information to all the stations downstream Even if you can do it (i.e. report the local time difference from UTC), it would work only for the CURRENT local time. The timezone file is used also for time in the past (and can be used for future times), e.g. for displaying file times by `ls'. Surely you don't intend to transmit the full local timezone file (several KB) for each time query. Ehud. - -- Ehud Karni Tel: +972-3-7966-561 /\ Mivtach - Simon Fax: +972-3-7966-667 \ / ASCII Ribbon Campaign Insurance agencies (USA) voice mail and X Against HTML Mail http://www.mvs.co.il FAX: 1-815-5509341 / \ GnuPG: 98EA398D http://www.keyserver.net/Better Safe Than Sorry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Comment: use http://www.keyserver.net/ to get my key (and others) iD8DBQFAWG9MLFvTvpjqOY0RAqnRAJsFNSH4bFy+K0Zf8VPOvErfHPnGsQCeL7Mu sONKDr3bKJHl/wlXWHknqHs= =b9su -END PGP SIGNATURE- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Quoting Yuri Bronshtein, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: Holocaust day shouldn't move to Tisha b'av. There's a reason for it's date - the day the Warsaw ghetto uprising began. Tisha b'av is a religious date, which most Israelies don't remember, or care about. that's sad. 9 of Av marks the biggest pogrom ever. Josefus Flavius quotes 2 million Jews killed in a two-week timeframe and rivers of blood washing through the streets of Jerusalem, this is not just some silly religious day because a building was destroyed. I wonder if people will give the same respect to yom hashoa in 100 or 1000 years... well, this has gone very off topic... -- A world of pain Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Yonah Russ wrote: I meant to solve the problem of israeli summer time in a way that we shouldn't have to update every individual station every year but rather that one computer be updated and let the update propogate automatically throughout israel. perhaps we could piggy back the timezone settings on the existing ntp infrastructure so that ntp.ac.il would propogate the correct timezone information to all the stations downstream yonah A noble idea but for the umpteenth time - why do you think it'll fit NTP? NTP has nothing to do with time zones (google the list archives). And as Ehud Karni says - you need the entire timezone file not just a small record. As much as I'd like to automate this myself, I can't find something much better than a simple ftp to the HUJI site and maybe a wrapper to compile the downloaded file (or install Debian - so far they always had an up to date copy of the Israeli timezone). (replace ftp with http, bittorent, rsync or any other file distribution protocol). --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Yuri Bronshtein, from the post of Wed, 17 Mar: Holocaust day shouldn't move to Tisha b'av. There's a reason for it's date - the day the Warsaw ghetto uprising began. Tisha b'av is a religious date, which most Israelies don't remember, or care about. that's sad. 9 of Av marks the biggest pogrom ever. Josefus Flavius quotes 2 million Jews killed in a two-week timeframe and rivers of blood washing through the streets of Jerusalem, this is not just some silly religious day because a building was destroyed. Very off topic indeed, but the date shows the point someone said about the randomness of setting dates - both temples were destoyed on the 8th and 10th (not sure which one on which date), and 9 of av was set as the average. Same reasoning can be used to move Yom Haatzmaut or any other calendar date. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Runtime changing of timezones
Title: Message I have been following this group now for a while, and it is great to see such an active linux community here in israel. If I may, I would like to add a question about timezones. If I use tzselect to change my time zone, is there any way to get applications that are already running to notice the timezone change, and update their clocks appropriately? perhapsby sendingthem some signal? As an example application, I would like to get the gnome clock to be updated without having to restart gnome. I am also running a custom application, and I would like them to all display the correct time. Thank you linux-il, Nachum
Re: Runtime changing of timezones
On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Nachum Kanovsky wrote: If I use tzselect to change my time zone, is there any way to get applications that are already running to notice the timezone change, and update their clocks appropriately? perhaps by sending them some signal? As an example application, I would like to get the gnome clock to be updated without having to restart gnome. I am also running a custom application, and I would like them to all display the correct time. what _are_ you trying to achieve? are you trying to adjust the machine for daylight saving time changes? or you're running a test machine and testing some software that need to be tested in different timezones? in the former case, you are not supposed to touch the time-zone at all, but rather make sure that the TZ file you have is updated with the dates of daylight saving time's changes, and then the switch will be made automatically - man 'zic' for more information, and look at ftp://ftp.cs.huji.ac.il/pub/tz/israel (look at the 'README' file) for easy instructions for the madness called israeli summer-time ;) if you're talking about the later, i'm afraid tzselect cannot help - since (i pressume) you're using it to set the TZ environment variable - and this change does not effect existing processes. you _might_ be able to apply such a change to them by attaching a debugger to them and using it to invoke the relevant library function - but i'm not sure how various applications will react to such a change. if you change the time zone of the entire machine - perhaps this will effect currently-running applications. -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
With such a huge community of techies, why can't we come up with a way to make this easier for all of us- or maybe someone has? yonah guy keren wrote: On Tue, 16 Mar 2004, Nachum Kanovsky wrote: If I use tzselect to change my time zone, is there any way to get applications that are already running to notice the timezone change, and update their clocks appropriately? perhaps by sending them some signal? As an example application, I would like to get the gnome clock to be updated without having to restart gnome. I am also running a custom application, and I would like them to all display the correct time. what _are_ you trying to achieve? are you trying to adjust the machine for daylight saving time changes? or you're running a test machine and testing some software that need to be tested in different timezones? in the former case, you are not supposed to touch the time-zone at all, but rather make sure that the TZ file you have is updated with the dates of daylight saving time's changes, and then the switch will be made automatically - man 'zic' for more information, and look at ftp://ftp.cs.huji.ac.il/pub/tz/israel (look at the 'README' file) for easy instructions for the madness called israeli summer-time ;) if you're talking about the later, i'm afraid tzselect cannot help - since (i pressume) you're using it to set the TZ environment variable - and this change does not effect existing processes. you _might_ be able to apply such a change to them by attaching a debugger to them and using it to invoke the relevant library function - but i'm not sure how various applications will react to such a change. if you change the time zone of the entire machine - perhaps this will effect currently-running applications. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Israeli summer time - Was Re: Runtime changing of timezones
Yonah Russ wrote: With such a huge community of techies, why can't we come up with a way to make this easier for all of us- or maybe someone has? yonah It's awfully easy, assuming you are not trying something irrelevant. If all you want is to get daylight saving at the apropriate time, you don't need to touch anything. This, of course, assumes you live in a country with predictable daylight saving. If you live in Israel, you need to keep your linux system up to date at least once a year, and your'e set. If, on the other hand, you want to move your computer from Israel to the US without terminating any process, you may find that some processes go on in their old time zone. Tough, but totally harmless. I think that once we understand what the problem is, we may be able to come up with a solution. -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Systems Consulting http://www.lingnu.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
