Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Oded Arbel wrote: Will you tell us what the final decision was (when it taked place), please ? just the usual curiosity :-) Well, yesterday was the meeting. It turns out that we are still in the design stage - what sort of data should the application have and how will it help its heaviest user (the poor guy who has to feed all those flights into the computer every week) do his job in the easiest way. But at least on the way there and back I gave a lift to the valunteer programmer who knows VB+Access+ASP and got a chance to talk to him. Turns out that he is an auto-didact for about 7 years. Giving him the club's bad experience with Magic and how open source would have prevented this, then extrapolating this on Microsoft products seem to have had a large effect on him. He wasn't aware of the pricing, even when I told him that as far as I know it will cost around 1000$ just to buy the licenses for a Windows Server (I'm not an MS licensing expert, I just know it costs me more than Linux :). He still would like to write the desktop data entry program with Access/VB, but it seems that I'll get a chance to push openner technologies for the new members service site. Thanks everyone for the tips, the discussion helped me a lot to approach this. Cheers, --Amos PS - Does anyone know a GUI designer who'd like to help us in an open-source project? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 09:12:35PM +0200, guy keren wrote: On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. A club member who knows MS stuff valunteered to write it in VB+ASP+Access. this is the single most important argument - that there is someone that said they will do it. there's no good way to beat that in a gliding club. the next best thing you can do, after vulanteering to do it yourself (or finding someone else to vulanteer doing it on linux), is try to talk to this guy personally, convince him that he wants to learn about linux (it will give _him_ an edge over people who only knows windows, and open new opportunities for him), and then tell him that this _is_ a good opportunity to start learning (i.e. he is over the part of finding an idea for a project, which serves a real purpose). ofcourse, you'll need to talk to him privately before the meeting with the other club members - and then have him on your side during that meeting. Actually if they are willing to put up money for the development/running environment (whatever licences are required) you can try and push an option to pay the volunteer part of this money to do it on an open environment. This way everybody wins. The clubs saves some of the money, the volunteer gets to both learn a new environment that can come in useful for him/her later and also get some money for it ;-) -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] +++ This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System at the Tel-Aviv University CC. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Micha Feigin wrote: Actually if they are willing to put up money for the development/running environment (whatever licences are required) you can try and push an option to pay the volunteer part of this money to do it on an open environment. This way everybody wins. That's one of the open questions for me - how much do they care about really paying for the licences. If they don't (which would be illegal, I know) then I can't beat on the free drum too much. The clubs saves some of the money, the volunteer gets to both learn a new environment that can come in useful for him/her later and also get some money for it ;-) And the tools are opener so there are more chances to get community help for development. I'll try that too. Thanks, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
My argument against MS software: They force you to upgrade to more recent versions of their environment. When you upgrade, it is not only money but you have also to update your software because they don't maintain backward compatibility. And they force you to upgrade when you hit a security vulnerability in your existing environment, which they won't fix because it is already obsolete and they don't maintain it. And this happens at the worst time and situation - you have been hit by a security problem, and need to get the system back up quickly BY UPGRADING IT, and not just when a volunteer is available. The worst - your system will be exposed to the Internet, because you want to serve Web pages. So it will be certain that there will be plenty of attacks. On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. A club member who knows MS stuff valunteered to write it in VB+ASP+Access. Their argument for Access is that we won't reach the 1Gb limit in 20 years (which I think is false) and that it will be a single web server accessing the database directly, so no much concurrency problems (which I'll try to clarify in ameeting tommorow (Monday)). They also relay on the promise that it will be easy to move over the MS-SQL if required later. I'd like to stir them away from doing what I believe to be a mistake to be dependend on MS proprietary technology, but not being able to give the time to program myself I am a bit at loss as to how exactly can I convince them to see the dangers in that road. Can people help me find arguments against this setup? Currently I have: 1. Windows/IIS/ASP are insecure. 2. Not scalable in terms of size of database and number of users (but then it's not going to be a large number of users, only club members). 3. Expensive (but they might be willing to invest this). 4. Lots of hand holding for the server - crashes, bug fixes, anti-virus. 5. Lock-in in MS technology (but I suppose you can always export the data, don't you?). What else can I say? And how to say it? I need this for Monday evening. --- Omer My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
How about meeting them half-way -- first thing to suggest using mysql/postgresql as the database instead of access -- they're free, and at least I know mysql can run on Windows without a problem. Access has no advantages over mysql in this kind of setup, and mysql by far surpasses Access as a DB engine. (if Access could even be called that). About VB/ASP what will this site do? the price argument might looked weired to them since hiring a LAMP guy will cost them money, where as you say the VB/ASP guy will work for free (does he own a registered license of VB for development?). The cost of Win2K server (with proper licensing; a Win web-server might require an Internet Connector License which is costly), hosting, development and maintenance should be compared. I'm guessing the LAMP solution will cost less at the end, even though development will cost money, although it is not true in any case. I doubt you can convince non-tech people with arguments like being bind to MS technologies. In most people's eyes that's not a bad thing. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. A club member who knows MS stuff valunteered to write it in VB+ASP+Access. Their argument for Access is that we won't reach the 1Gb limit in 20 years (which I think is false) and that it will be a single web server accessing the database directly, so no much concurrency problems (which I'll try to clarify in a meeting tommorow (Monday)). They also relay on the promise that it will be easy to move over the MS-SQL if required later. I'd like to stir them away from doing what I believe to be a mistake to be dependend on MS proprietary technology, but not being able to give the time to program myself I am a bit at loss as to how exactly can I convince them to see the dangers in that road. Can people help me find arguments against this setup? Currently I have: 1. Windows/IIS/ASP are insecure. 2. Not scalable in terms of size of database and number of users (but then it's not going to be a large number of users, only club members). 3. Expensive (but they might be willing to invest this). 4. Lots of hand holding for the server - crashes, bug fixes, anti-virus. 5. Lock-in in MS technology (but I suppose you can always export the data, don't you?). What else can I say? And how to say it? I need this for Monday evening. Thanks, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
From the positive side (not against VB+ASP+Access but for LAMP) you might find his interesting: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article.php?sid=7131 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 3:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access Hi, My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. A club member who knows MS stuff valunteered to write it in VB+ASP+Access. Their argument for Access is that we won't reach the 1Gb limit in 20 years (which I think is false) and that it will be a single web server accessing the database directly, so no much concurrency problems (which I'll try to clarify in a meeting tommorow (Monday)). They also relay on the promise that it will be easy to move over the MS-SQL if required later. I'd like to stir them away from doing what I believe to be a mistake to be dependend on MS proprietary technology, but not being able to give the time to program myself I am a bit at loss as to how exactly can I convince them to see the dangers in that road. Can people help me find arguments against this setup? Currently I have: 1. Windows/IIS/ASP are insecure. 2. Not scalable in terms of size of database and number of users (but then it's not going to be a large number of users, only club members). 3. Expensive (but they might be willing to invest this). 4. Lots of hand holding for the server - crashes, bug fixes, anti-virus. 5. Lock-in in MS technology (but I suppose you can always export the data, don't you?). What else can I say? And how to say it? I need this for Monday evening. Thanks, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Alon Weinstein wrote: How about meeting them half-way -- first thing to suggest using mysql/postgresql as the database instead of access -- they're free, and at least I know mysql can run on Windows without a problem. Access has no advantages over mysql in this kind of setup, and mysql by far surpasses Access as a DB engine. (if Access could even be called that). Yes, that's one thing I noticed in my googling now - MySQL should be easy to put underneath Access calls due to ODBC support. I'm pretty surte PostgresQL (my personal favourite) can do this too. About VB/ASP what will this site do? the price argument might looked weired to them since hiring a LAMP guy will cost them money, where as you say the VB/ASP guy will work for free (does he own a registered license of VB for development?). I dunno. I suppose this isn't an issue. The cost of Win2K server (with proper licensing; a Win web-server might require an Internet Connector License which is costly), hosting, development and maintenance should be compared. I'm guessing the LAMP solution will cost less at the end, even though development will cost money, although it is not true in any case. I don't think I can even bring up an option to pay for development simply because the MS option is free on that point. I doubt you can convince non-tech people with arguments like being bind to MS technologies. In most people's eyes that's not a bad thing. That's what I'm affraid of (and that's why I came here for help). The people actually involved in the project work with computers for a living, some are programmers, some are hardware design managers but I don't know their leaning except for that guy who valunteered to do the actual coding. Thanks for your comments. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Omer Zak wrote: My argument against MS software: They force you to upgrade to more recent versions of their environment. [ rest of the argument deleted for bravity ] I'm aware that such things happened sometimes in the past, but do you have concrete refferences I can show them? Without these they'll treat me as just another hand-waving-opensource-bigot. Thanks for your thoughts. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alon Weinstein wrote: How about meeting them half-way -- first thing to suggest using mysql/postgresql as the database instead of access -- they're free, and at least I know mysql can run on Windows without a problem. Access has no advantages over mysql in this kind of setup, and mysql by far surpasses Access as a DB engine. (if Access could even be called that). Yes, that's one thing I noticed in my googling now - MySQL should be easy to put underneath Access calls due to ODBC support. I'm pretty surte PostgresQL (my personal favourite) can do this too. Unfortunetly, at the moment Postgres only has a cygwin version for Windows. There is no native Win32 version at this stage. Also, due to name folding differences, you may find that some tweaking of the SQL statements is required. I have started a project in the past to allow easy translation between SQL variants, but lost my funding (http://www.sf.net/projects/dbsconv). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Systems Consulting http://www.lingnu.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Unfortunetly, at the moment Postgres only has a cygwin version for Windows. There is no native Win32 version at this stage. Also, due to name folding differences, you may find that some tweaking of the SQL statements is required. I have started a project in the past to allow easy translation between SQL variants, but lost my funding (http://www.sf.net/projects/dbsconv). Shachar That's an interesting idea did you ever get the map the differences between Access mySQL? IIRC Access uses * instead of % in LIKE statements -- is that the level of difference between them? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. A club member who knows MS stuff valunteered to write it in VB+ASP+Access. this is the single most important argument - that there is someone that said they will do it. there's no good way to beat that in a gliding club. the next best thing you can do, after vulanteering to do it yourself (or finding someone else to vulanteer doing it on linux), is try to talk to this guy personally, convince him that he wants to learn about linux (it will give _him_ an edge over people who only knows windows, and open new opportunities for him), and then tell him that this _is_ a good opportunity to start learning (i.e. he is over the part of finding an idea for a project, which serves a real purpose). ofcourse, you'll need to talk to him privately before the meeting with the other club members - and then have him on your side during that meeting. -- guy For world domination - press 1, or dial 0, and please hold, for the creator. -- nob o. dy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
OK, some real world examples: 1. A a data entry system Designed on Access 97. 3 users, data was never to exceed 1GB. Was done by a rather competent programmer. a. Performance over the network for data over 150MB was extremely slow, even when the data and application files were split and the application installed locally. b. Migration cost to Access 2000 were 1.5 the cost of the original system - no added value or functionality. c. Generating data for analysis (excel, SAS) was a nightmare. 2. CRM 1,500 records. Originally on Access 2. Worked rather well until we upgraded to 97. Access does not reclaim deleted records space and is horrible in file I/O. When upgrade time came again we dropped access for text files 3. Patient monitoring Access 2000. Similar situation to your what you described. A free programmer was found to develop an application for clinical trials. He did a very nice user interface which the users loved. Once more, when we crossed the 150MB data size with more then one user, performance droped through the floor. My conclusions: Access is underpowered as multi user DBMS. Access is overpowered for single user data management (unless the users knows his/her way around an RDBMS). To take make any use of Access you need a really good VB programmer. But, if you have a really good VB programmer, you don't need access On a final note, I doubt if any of the above will make a difference when a free programmer is available. I would ask who would maintain the application one year from now? Is that programmer committed to fixing bugs or adding features? If he is, then you will find it hard, if not impossible to advocated another solution. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. A club member who knows MS stuff valunteered to write it in VB+ASP+Access. Their argument for Access is that we won't reach the 1Gb limit in 20 years (which I think is false) and that it will be a single web server accessing the database directly, so no much concurrency problems (which I'll try to clarify in a meeting tommorow (Monday)). They also relay on the promise that it will be easy to move over the MS-SQL if required later. I'd like to stir them away from doing what I believe to be a mistake to be dependend on MS proprietary technology, but not being able to give the time to program myself I am a bit at loss as to how exactly can I convince them to see the dangers in that road. Can people help me find arguments against this setup? Currently I have: 1. Windows/IIS/ASP are insecure. 2. Not scalable in terms of size of database and number of users (but then it's not going to be a large number of users, only club members). 3. Expensive (but they might be willing to invest this). 4. Lots of hand holding for the server - crashes, bug fixes, anti-virus. 5. Lock-in in MS technology (but I suppose you can always export the data, don't you?). What else can I say? And how to say it? I need this for Monday evening. Thanks, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
On Sunday 22 February 2004 15:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. Not exactly what you asked for, but thought I'll mention it anyway. Googling for 'open source pilot logbook' brings as first hit: GNU Pilot Logbook Pro -- http://freshmeat.net/redir/gplbp/3546/url_tgz/gplbp-0.92.tar.gz While its not web based (it's a GTK app), you may play with it (I didn't) to see if it's a reasonable as a demo-ware. I.e: here is what open source can produce through colaboration To help clarify your club members the upgrade cost of MS, you may want to demonstrate the *true* cost of the Magic solution -- having an abandoned software that cannot be maintained any longer. The MS upgrade cycle mentioned by others, almost assure the same result. I think the only viable long term solution for low a budget community is to share the load -- e.g: start a non-ambitious OSS project and try to interest other glider clubs (either in Israel or elsewhere -- logbooks are logbooks after all). This way you get a living software instead of a dead and/or costly product. (the signature is relevant to this theme) -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron Linux lasts longer! -- Kim J. Brand [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Gil Freund wrote: OK, some real world examples: [examples deleted] My conclusions: Access is underpowered as multi user DBMS. Access is overpowered for single user data management (unless the users knows his/her way around an RDBMS). To take make any use of Access you need a really good VB programmer. But, if you have a really good VB programmer, you don't need access Thanks very much for the examples. I'll try to use them. On a final note, I doubt if any of the above will make a difference when a free programmer is available. I would ask who would maintain the application one year from now? Is that programmer committed to fixing I dunno. But I'm not sure who'll maintain a system built on top of LAMP or any combination of open-source and proprietary software. bugs or adding features? If he is, then you will find it hard, if not impossible to advocated another solution. At least maybe your examples will convince them not to use Access? That would be a tiny step away from disaster. Cheers, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Oron Peled wrote: On Sunday 22 February 2004 15:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My gliding club is going to write their own software, after years of being dependent on an ancient Magic software that no-one could update and did a fraction of the requirements. Not exactly what you asked for, but thought I'll mention it anyway. Googling for 'open source pilot logbook' brings as first hit: GNU Pilot Logbook Pro -- http://freshmeat.net/redir/gplbp/3546/url_tgz/gplbp-0.92.tar.gz Thanks. I know this software and indeed it's not really related (we need a club management software). While its not web based (it's a GTK app), you may play with it (I didn't) to see if it's a reasonable as a demo-ware. I.e: here is what open source can produce through colaboration Hmm. Maybe so. How well would it work on a Windows system? To help clarify your club members the upgrade cost of MS, you may want to demonstrate the *true* cost of the Magic solution -- having an abandoned Indeed. I hope to play on this experience. software that cannot be maintained any longer. The MS upgrade cycle mentioned by others, almost assure the same result. I think the only viable long term solution for low a budget community is to share the load -- e.g: start a non-ambitious OSS project and try to True. But they can also open-source the ASP/VB/Access solution can't they? (Though I don't know how large is the open source community for such tools). interest other glider clubs (either in Israel or elsewhere -- logbooks are logbooks after all). This way you get a living software instead of a dead and/or costly product. I also envision that there are so many similar points among various clubs, not just for gliding (e.g. an activity could be either a flight or an August Penguine II). I hope to convince them to open-source it whatever the technology is. Cheers, --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Oron Peled wrote: On Sunday 22 February 2004 15:30, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [deleted] To help clarify your club members the upgrade cost of MS, you may want to demonstrate the *true* cost of the Magic solution -- having an abandoned software that cannot be maintained any longer. The MS upgrade cycle mentioned by others, almost assure the same result. Actually, this is not a good example. Magic was delivered in two flavors - developer and run time. In order to modify the code of the application you needed the developer version, as well the developer. Access does have this limitation. I think the only viable long term solution for low a budget community is to share the load -- e.g: start a non-ambitious OSS project and try to interest other glider clubs (either in Israel or elsewhere -- logbooks are logbooks after all). This way you get a living software instead of a dead and/or costly product. Such as: http://www.bigwig.net/ampic/soar/ (the signature is relevant to this theme) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
On Sunday 22 February 2004 23:01, Gil Freund wrote: Actually, this is not a good example. Magic was delivered in two flavors - developer and run time. In order to modify the code of the application you needed the developer version, as well the developer. I have used Magic for many tasks back in the late 80's - early 90's. What I tried to point is that using proprietary tools (Magic is just an example they used) binds your project strongly to the upgrade cycle of the tool. While this affects OSS tools as well. It is less problematic: - There are no direct costs to upgrade. - As long as there are users, you are not *pushed* to upgrade by marketoids. Such as: http://www.bigwig.net/ampic/soar/ Ok. You got a point. Community driven apps may be built with proprietary tools and be maintained...(still I wonder about the costs in this case). -- Oron Peled Voice/Fax: +972-4-8228492 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.actcom.co.il/~oron LINUX is tied fairly closely to the 80x86. Not the way to go. - LINUX is obsolete, Andy Tanenbaum, 29 Jan 92. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need help - arguments for Why not VB+ASP+Access
Oron Peled wrote: On Sunday 22 February 2004 23:01, Gil Freund wrote: Actually, this is not a good example. Magic was delivered in two flavors - developer and run time. In order to modify the code of the application you needed the developer version, as well the developer. I have used Magic for many tasks back in the late 80's - early 90's. What I tried to point is that using proprietary tools (Magic is just an example they used) binds your project strongly to the upgrade cycle of the tool. While this affects OSS tools as well. It is less problematic: - There are no direct costs to upgrade. - As long as there are users, you are not *pushed* to upgrade by marketoids. Such as: http://www.bigwig.net/ampic/soar/ Ok. You got a point. Community driven apps may be built with proprietary tools and be maintained...(still I wonder about the costs in this case). It's not always a solution. Even if they do give the source to a third party to cover for their being closed down, it might require a non-existing environment. In our case, I happened to work with veterans of Magic, and even they couldn't get me the right developer version for Magic in order to update the software. Many times the software also requires old environments like DOS or such. The club was stuck with this software for over a decade because of this, if they used open-source even of that other time (e.g. probably C or C++ or Pascal?) then we would have had a better chance at upgrading the existing software. I still hope to play on this one. Thanks. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
