Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Paul Makepeace]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:51:26PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
>   map g !G perl -MText::Autoformat -eautoformat 
>   map z !G perl -MText::Autoformat -e 'autoformat{ all => 1 }' 
> 
> ...shamelessly stolen, lock stock and barrel from Damian's article in
> the new TPJ. :-)

Cool, thanks. Actually I think I saw that at TPC too.

Minor problemette is, when 1.0.4 is called at the end of the file:
Can't call method "signature" on an undefined value at
/usr/local/share/perl/5.6.0/Text/Autoformat.pm line 779.

Paul, having thoughts about using nvi with its embedded perl interpreter
to speed that up a bit...

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[David H. Adler]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:41:33PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:23:49PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
> > You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat.  I just used it to reformat
> > the bit above beginning with "Indeed".  Lovely thing.
> 
> Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)
> so that it gets cleaned on the way in, or does your mail client do it,
> or have you some on-demand vi/emacs macros? Do tell!

from my .vimrc:

map g !G perl -MText::Autoformat -eautoformat 
map z !G perl -MText::Autoformat -e 'autoformat{ all => 1 }' 

...shamelessly stolen, lock stock and barrel from Damian's article in
the new TPJ. :-)

The first does the current paragraph, the second does all paragraphs
down to the end of the document.

Damian is so cool...  Now if he'd just stop blaming me for stuff like
DWIM.pm... ;-)

dha

-- 
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out
of Meat.  - Phillip, Goats, 20sep99

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Paul Makepeace]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:23:49PM -0400, David H. Adler wrote:
> You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat.  I just used it to reformat
> the bit above beginning with "Indeed".  Lovely thing.

Have you integrated into a mail server (module, procmail, whatever)
so that it gets cleaned on the way in, or does your mail client do it,
or have you some on-demand vi/emacs macros? Do tell!

Paul

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:50:47PM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> @Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my
> images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I
> only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed
> a lot since).

This is 100% within their rights.

> They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it,

Yes, but they didn't have to.

> So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and
> inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking
> code. Which do I do? ;-)

If you didn't want your code to be used under the license terms you
set, YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE SET THEM. Deal with it.

-- 
It's 106 miles from Birmingham, we've got an eighth of a tank of gas,
half a pack of Dorritos, it's dusk, and we're wearing contacts.
- Malcolm Ray

Re: Election Manifestos

[Leon Brocard]

Chris Ball sent the following bits through the ether:

> I used to use At-mail a lot at work. Pseudo-interesting question of the
> day; do you really feel it was ripped off (in the stigmatism-attached
> sense of the word), or given that it was GPLed or Artistic'd anyway, that
> it's fair play to them and that's something that happens when you Give
> Code To The World sometimes?

OK: I released acmemail under GPL&AL because I wanted it to be used by
the most amount of people and I wasn't intending to make money off it.

@Mail (http://webbasedemail.com/) copied my code, my docs, and my
images without telling me, added a configuration file, and sold it. I
only found out about it by accident, which wasn't good. (it's changed
a lot since).

If I remember correctly, they got around any license issues by selling
the webmail servers to companies as a service, and not a product.

They could have handled it better. They could have told me about it,
asked about selling it / giving me a token present. They could have
given patches back to acmemail and not forked the code too much. I
wasn't happy at all with them at the time. They sent me nasty letters
about my accusations. It was blatently my code.

Overall, kudos to them, they appear to be able to sell a simple Perl
script for  a pop to large corporations.

So either I break up and cry at how lax the Artistic License is and
inflict viral GPL on all my code, or I just keep on going hacking
code. Which do I do? ;-)

Hmmm, let's rewrite the Cathedral and the Bazaar, but as a failure for
open source in this case ;-)

Leon
-- 
... Squeeze

Re: POSIX::localeconv()/Germany

[Mike Jarvis]

Wednesday, May 23, 2001, 2:45:24 PM, Dave Cross wrote:

DC> Haven't tried the routine you're talking about, but if you ever decide to 
DC> give up on them, the Number::Format module (from CPAN) will solve all of 
DC> your problems.

After RTFM'ing about that fine module, I thought I found my problem.
I was using thousand_sep instead of mon_thousand_sep (for money).
Alas, the same problem occurs.

Number::Format gets it's locale info from POSIX::localeconv, so other
than the niceness of have it doing the formating of the numbers, it
doesn't look like it will help me much. :(


-- 
mike

Re: Election Manifestos

[Chris Ball]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> It's a pity Acmemail never really took off (apart from being ripped off
> and turned into a succesful company by At-mail)

I used to use At-mail a lot at work. Pseudo-interesting question of the
day; do you really feel it was ripped off (in the stigmatism-attached
sense of the word), or given that it was GPLed or Artistic'd anyway, that
it's fair play to them and that's something that happens when you Give
Code To The World sometimes?

I just got out of an Algorithms exam, and my head hurts. Apologies if
this is too random. :)

-- 
Chris Ball.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] || http://printf.net/
perl -e '$0 = s/-//; print "Just another P$0rl hacker"'

Re: Buffy gear

[Barry Pretsell]

> eughh!    when you say 'Buffy gear' do you mean as in 'we guarantee
> these were worn by Buffy ... '  or something entirely more celeubrious ?

no looks like the usual crap: 1 in a billion signed prints and magazines, no
soiled
clothes...
- Original Message -
From: "Robin Szemeti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Buffy gear


> On Wed, 23 May 2001, Barry Pretsell wrote:
> >
> > QVC are selling lots of Buffy gear, tune into QVC now, or check out the
wbesite
>
> eughh!    when you say 'Buffy gear' do you mean as in 'we guarantee
> these were worn by Buffy ... '  or something entirely more celeubrious ?
>
> 
>
> --
> Robin Szemeti
>
> Redpoint Consulting Limited
> Real Solutions For A Virtual World
>

Re: POSIX::localeconv()/Germany

[Dave Cross]

At 20:18 23/05/2001, you wrote:
>Anybody have experience with POSIX localization functions/clients in
>Germany?
>
>I've got a client in .de that wants prices to look like this:
>DEM 1.234,00
>i.e., the thousands sep is a "." and the decimal is a ",".
>
>The posix routines return a space for the thousands sep and a dot for
>the decimal, so prices look like:
>DEM 1 234.00
>
>Do I just have weird clients or is $lconv->{thousands_sep} returning
>the wrong value?

Mike,

Haven't tried the routine you're talking about, but if you ever decide to 
give up on them, the Number::Format module (from CPAN) will solve all of 
your problems.

>Danke,

Bitte,

Dave...


-- 
  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perl Training in the UK

Re: Buffy gear

[Robin Szemeti]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Barry Pretsell wrote:
> 
> QVC are selling lots of Buffy gear, tune into QVC now, or check out the wbesite

eughh!    when you say 'Buffy gear' do you mean as in 'we guarantee
these were worn by Buffy ... '  or something entirely more celeubrious ?

 

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 

POSIX::localeconv()/Germany

[Mike Jarvis]

Anybody have experience with POSIX localization functions/clients in
Germany?

I've got a client in .de that wants prices to look like this:
DEM 1.234,00
i.e., the thousands sep is a "." and the decimal is a ",".

The posix routines return a space for the thousands sep and a dot for
the decimal, so prices look like:
DEM 1 234.00

Do I just have weird clients or is $lconv->{thousands_sep} returning
the wrong value?

Danke,

-- 
mike

Re: Buffy gear

[Dave Cross]

At 19:16 23/05/2001, Dean wrote:
>On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:18:23PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote:
> > QVC are selling lots of Buffy gear, tune into QVC now, or check out the 
> wbesite
>
>"Charisma Carpenter 'Cordelia' Signed Photo" £64...
>
>Now i'm scared...

Far cheaper on Yahoo Auctions:



Signed photos from £9.99.

Dave...


-- 
  SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Perl Training in the UK

Re: Buffy gear

[Greg McCarroll]

* Dean ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:18:23PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote:
> > QVC are selling lots of Buffy gear, tune into QVC now, or check out the wbesite
> 
> "Charisma Carpenter 'Cordelia' Signed Photo" £64...
> 
> Now i'm scared...
> 

you mean the suggestion of going to QVC to look at BtVS gear,
didn't scare you already?


-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

RE: Election Manifestos

[Robin Szemeti]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Cross David - dcross wrote:
> From: Leon Brocard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM
> 
> > Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:
> > 
> > > This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's
> > > definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just
> > > slap the authors until it does :)
> > 
> > You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while
> > back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it
> > c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a
> > couple of guys in the acmemail "community" who are slowly plodding
> > along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.
> 
> OK. But you'd still be able to install it far easier than anyone else in the
> group :)

Sqwebmail is nice .. works well with the Qmail/Vopmail/Courier-IMAP suite
.. been running it on a couple of sites for a couple of years and not had
much trouble (apart from thick users) ...

-- 
Robin Szemeti   

Redpoint Consulting Limited
Real Solutions For A Virtual World 

Re: Buffy gear

[Dean]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:18:23PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote:
> QVC are selling lots of Buffy gear, tune into QVC now, or check out the wbesite

"Charisma Carpenter 'Cordelia' Signed Photo" £64...

Now i'm scared...

Dean
-- 
Profanity is the one language all programmers understand
   --- Anon

Buffy gear

[Barry Pretsell]

QVC are selling lots of Buffy gear, tune into QVC 
now, or check out the wbesite
 
http://www.qvcuk.com/ukgasp/frameset.asp?nest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.qvcuk.com%2Fukgscripts%2FSearch.dll&search=1&frames=y&Criteria=Buffy

Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

[Leon Brocard]

Simon Wistow sent the following bits through the ether:

> If anybody has any of these ...

I could bring along "Real Genius"? (slightly more old-skool hackers
though)

Leon
-- 
Leon Brocard.http://www.astray.com/
Iterative Software...http://www.iterative-software.com/

... "Careful. We don't want to learn from this." - Calvin

Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

[Simon Wistow]

Neil Ford wrote:
 
> Had I been able to locate my copy you would have been more than welcome
> to borrow it it would appear mine's in storage. If I get a chance before
> Saturday I'll try and track it down.

Ooh, you are a star.

Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

[Neil Ford]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:53:54PM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> (http://www.twoshortplanks.com/simon/filmfest/)
> 
> Time for yet another movie marathon since people have been carping on 
> about it  and this time it's the long awaited 
> hacksploitation night - exploring the interesting and, umm, tenuous 
> relationship that the silver screen has with the hacker (and cracker)
> lifestyle.
> 
> The Time : Sunday, 27th of May. About 2pm. 
> (although I don't mind doing it earlier or later)
> 
Would love to have made this but too much on this weekend and making the
technical meeting on Saturday means the rest of the weekend has to be spent
being productive.

> Line up so far will come from ...
> 
>   o Hackers
>   o War Games
>   o Antitrust
>   o Takedown
>
Bugger, there's two on there I haven't yet seen and I can always watch
Hackers.
 
> 
> No, 'The Net' does not count.
> 
> If anybody has any of these ...
> 
>   o Sneakers

Had I been able to locate my copy you would have been more than welcome
to borrow it it would appear mine's in storage. If I get a chance before
Saturday I'll try and track it down.

Neil.
-- 
Neil C. Ford
Managing Director, Yet Another Computer Solutions Company Limited
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.yacsc.com

Re: [Announce] Hackspoitation film fest

[David H. Adler]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:53:54PM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> 
> If anybody has any of these ...
> 
>   o Sneakers

Well, I have it, but it's on NTSC laserdisc, and I'm in a different
country.  Serves you right for doing this without me.  :-)

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
"It must be difficult being such a visionary."
"Not really.  You just have to drink a whole lot."
- http://www.goats.com/archive/index.html?990420

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[David H. Adler]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:39PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:32:09PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
> > 
> > >Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their 
>favourite Unix mail client all the time, 
> > 
> > 
> > Oxymoron, surely?
> 
> Not in the slightest.  Now if you'd said "favourite gui mail client",
> you might be correct.

No, I think that's still not a contradiction.  "good gui mail client"
probably is, however.

> > Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an
> > overwhelming urge to be backward compatible with 1972, and can
> > therefore do cool futuristic stuff like handle more than 72 columns.
> 
> However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is
> completely beyond it, despite the fact it's been implemented correctly
> countless times before over the past 30 years or so.

You should use Damian's Text::AutoFormat.  I just used it to reformat
the bit above beginning with "Indeed".  Lovely thing.

dha
-- 
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
philosophy department 
- you don't have to be to work here, but it helps

Re: Sara Cox - was Re: FHM Top 100 Sexiest Women

[David H. Adler]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:18:07AM +0100, Greg McCarroll wrote:
> * David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:17:11PM +0100, Barbie wrote:
> > > 
> > > Bugger! Brain thinking faster than my hands!
> > 
> > Your hands *think*???
> > 
> 
> in fact, it was a recent Angel episode

Only because you guys are so far behind... :-)

dha, still recovering from the season finalii...

-- 
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
New Songs/New Members/New CD/Same rotten attitude
- Raving Noah press release

Re: Expect problem

[Mark Rogaski]

An entity claiming to be [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 
wrote:
: 
: How can I get things to wait till the spawned program finishes, or at
: least let it finish properly.
: I've just had success by putting in an infinite wait
: unless ($command->expect(undef, "nonsense")) {
:};
: But that seems real stupid - and of course the script will never exit
: now.
: Is the only thing to do to to somehow get an expect method to somehow
: wait for the end of the spawned program?
: 

Try:  $command->interact();

It connects the process to STDIN and returns when the process dies.

Mark

-- 
[]   | "Girls in occupied countries always
[] Mark Rogaski  | get into trouble with soldiers," she
[] [EMAIL PROTECTED] | said, when I asked her what the Virgin
[]   | birth was.  -- Florence King, CoaFSL

 PGP signature

Re: Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Niklas Nordebo]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:39PM +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is

I generally avoid this issue by not working so much that it needs wrapping.

-- 
Niklas Nordebo -><- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -><- +447966251290
 "The day is seven hours and fifteen minutes old, and already it's
crippled with the weight of my evasions, deceit, and downright lies"

Expect problem

[john . hearns]

Hi all - time for me to delurk. (dashes in from the shadows).


I've bent my brain with Expect yesterday and today, and need someone to
(metaphorically)
hit me round the head and tell me what to do right.

The scenario:
I wish to run a program, imapxfer, which transfers imap email between
two imap servers.
Each server will prompt for a password.
Getting out the trusty Perl Cookbook, I'm trying to use Expect, which is
amost working.

Here is the code:

# use Expect to run the imapxfer progam and supply its inputs
 $command = Expect->spawn("/usr/local/bin/imapxfer $imapargs")
   or die "Couldn't start imapxfer";

# wait 20 seconds for the password: prompt
 unless ($command->expect(20, "password:")) {
  print "Timeout problem with London imapxfer \n";
  }
print $command "passwordr";

# wait 20 seconds for the password: prompt
unless ($command->expect(20, "password:")) {
 print "Timeout problem with newmail imapxfer \n";
  }
print $command "password\r";



Things are fine up until this point - the program starts off, and both
passwords are accepted.
But when the script exits the spawned program is killed :-(, which
happens pretty quickly.
I've tried the soft_close and hard_close methods, which aren't any use.

How can I get things to wait till the spawned program finishes, or at
least let it finish properly.
I've just had success by putting in an infinite wait
unless ($command->expect(undef, "nonsense")) {
   };
But that seems real stupid - and of course the script will never exit
now.
Is the only thing to do to to somehow get an expect method to somehow
wait for the end of the spawned program?

Re: Election Manifestos

[Philip Newton]

Simon Wistow wrote:
> the DBI abstraction was, well, nonexistent.

As in, if your script has lots of calls to mysql_this and mysql_that, it
doesn't look very database independent.

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Email Style (was: Re: Election Manifestos)

[Dominic Mitchell]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:32:09PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
> At 07:49 23/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
> >At 17:37 22/05/2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
> >
> >
> >>And get a shell account, why don't you?
> >
> >Thanks. I already have several. 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> >Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their 
>favourite Unix mail client all the time, 
> 
> 
> Oxymoron, surely?

Not in the slightest.  Now if you'd said "favourite gui mail client",
you might be correct.

> >have the time or knowledge to do that. This email client snobbery is getting too 
>frequent. Just because someone is posting from an Exchange server, it doesn't 
>necessarily mean that what they are saying is less valid.

This is very reasonable.  But nonetheless, being able to present
onesself in a reasonable fashion makes communicating a lot easier.

I'm just glad that people here speak in plain english, as opposed to the
complete abortion phone-messaging ``language'' that I see all over the
rest of my delete key.

> Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an overwhelming urge 
>to be backward compatible with 1972, and can therefore do cool futuristic stuff like 
>handle more than 72 columns.

However, the cool futuristic stuff like CORRECT BLOODY WORK WRAPPING is
completely beyond it, despite the fact it's been implemented correctly
countless times before over the past 30 years or so.

And besides, how many newspapers do you see with text that goes on and
on all over the page?  (obvious nasty comments about newspapers aside)

> >:->
> 
> 
> >Dave...
> >[bugger! another grumpy start to the day]
> 
> I blame the hot weather. It's unnatural.
> 
> Jon 'Troll? Where?' Peterson

Time to get me a shotgun and go back a few trolls!  Yes, sirree!

-Dom

Re: Election Manifestos

[Jonathan Peterson]

At 07:49 23/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
>At 17:37 22/05/2001, Roger Burton West wrote:
>
>
>>And get a shell account, why don't you?
>
>Thanks. I already have several. 

[snip]


>Much as I'd love it if everyone was to be able to post to the list from their 
>favourite Unix mail client all the time, 


Oxymoron, surely?

>have the time or knowledge to do that. This email client snobbery is getting too 
>frequent. Just because someone is posting from an Exchange server, it doesn't 
>necessarily mean that what they are saying is less valid.

Indeed. And some of us use display technology that doesn't have an overwhelming urge 
to be backward compatible with 1972, and can therefore do cool futuristic stuff like 
handle more than 72 columns.

>:->


>Dave...
>[bugger! another grumpy start to the day]

I blame the hot weather. It's unnatural.

Jon 'Troll? Where?' Peterson


-- 
Jonathan Peterson
Technical Manager, Unified Ltd, 020 7383 6092
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Election Manifestos

[Martin Ling]

On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 02:06:13PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote:
> 
> > > But they fixed references in 6.0! No, wait, they just introduced a
> > > load of Thread-* headers :-( Fucking morons.
> > 
> > They just innovated threading!
> > 
> > Tell me you're joking.
> 
> If I was joking I wouldn't have "ignore Thread-" in my .muttrc :-(
> 
> Thread-Topic: Subject line goes here.
> Thread-Index: AcDZqhhI7VsxDWt9TIyjVP5af1xC5wAANWVg  

I've just spent five minutes trying to respond to this without actually
screaming. Sorry, but I can't.


Martin

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

AEF wrote:

>  Could you elaborate on that a little? It's not too much of a danger, but
> I may have to persuade people that PHP isn't the right solution for a
> large-scale application. I know quite a few of the arguments, but it'd be
> nice to have some real-world examples...

Well I haven't played aroudn with it much for a few years but from what
I remember it had all of Perl's problems with writing large scale apps
(like no typing at the API level) plus you couldn't have more than 1
level of inheritence and the OO-iness of PHP just sucked in general.
This may have changed since Version 3. 

It was difficult to abstract content from logic (although it's kind of a
templating system in its own right), the library system isn't nearly as
good either as a way to load libraries in or as a repository (but then
what programming language does have an equivalent to CPAN) and the DBI
abstraction was, well, nonexistent.

And it wasn't nearly as powerful as Perl.

Twas nearly two years ago though.

Still quite like it for quick stuff though.

Re: new york

[Philip Newton]

Greg McCarroll wrote:
> Well back from sunny NY to good old London and what do i have
> waiting for me, thats right 200+ messages in London.pm! Hurrah!

That was an awfully quick flight if it got you there and back in under eight
hours (judging from the number of messages you say you had in your inbox
afterwards) :)

Cheers,
Philip
-- 
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Re: Election Manifestos

[AEF]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Simon Wistow wrote:

> Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me
> gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially
> since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations)

 Could you elaborate on that a little? It's not too much of a danger, but
I may have to persuade people that PHP isn't the right solution for a
large-scale application. I know quite a few of the arguments, but it'd be
nice to have some real-world examples...

 Tony

Re: Election Manifestos

[Mark Fowler]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Simon Cozens wrote:

> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:17:14AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> > But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD
> > there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but
> > it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why
> > reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules
> > when one will do.
>
> Because it doesn't exist? :) OTOH, Mail::Cclient does do NNTP as well, which
> would be a boost, because WING is meant to be the Web IMAP and NNTP Gateway.

Mail::Cclient was (not sure if it is still) a bitch to install.  Requires
c headers from IMAP libraries.  How likely is it that you have these
(still) lying around on your client machine[1]?

Most people opt for something that they can get to install easily[2]
rather than something more powerful.  If I can't just write a bundle for
cpan then it's probably not worth the bother...

Oh, let's just add it to the list of things to do once we've done NMS, the
new website for london.pm.org and conferences are out of the way...

Later.

Mark.

[1] Rhetorical question, not flame bait.
[2] in under 2 hours

-- 
 My other mail has a signature

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:17:14AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD
> there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but
> it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why
> reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules
> when one will do.
 
Because it doesn't exist? :) OTOH, Mail::Cclient does do NNTP as well, which
would be a boost, because WING is meant to be the Web IMAP and NNTP Gateway.

> Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me
> gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially
> since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations)
> plus it doesn't have the community support that Perl does or CPAN and it
> was difficult to extract presentation from logic.

If I were to deploy Imp, I wouldn't care how much community support PHP had,
I'd care how much community support Imp had.

-- 
"Don't worry about people stealing your ideas.   If your ideas are any good, 
you'll have to ram them down people's throats."
 -- Howard Aiken

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

Simon Cozens wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> > that Mail::Cclient is powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to
> > install,
> 
> And use. Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :)
> There's also http://www.horde.org/imp/ which is reasonably popular.

But Mail::Cclient is also unbeleivably powerful. Lying round on my HD
there's a Mail::Cclient::Simple which amkes everything much easier but
it's one of many projects I've never got round to finishing. Why
reinvent the wheel by rolling my own or using 5 or 6 different modules
when one will do.

Imp was crap when we started and it's also PHP based. I like PHP (/me
gets coat) but I wouldn't do a large scale application in it (especially
since I had just just done one then and hit some very large limitations)
plus it doesn't have the community support that Perl does or CPAN and it
was difficult to extract presentation from logic.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:04:19AM +0100, Simon Wistow wrote:
> that Mail::Cclient is powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to
> install,

And use. Ripping that fucker out would be my first act. :)
There's also http://www.horde.org/imp/ which is reasonably popular.

-- 
"Jesus ate my mouse" or some similar banality.
-- Megahal (trained on asr), 1998-11-06

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Wistow]

Simon Cozens wrote:
> 
> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:43:23AM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> > It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.
> 
> Yet Another Webmail Client; it wasn't exactly filling a gaping niche.
> (And I say that as someone who may soon be maintaining one of the others...)

It did at the time - IIRC there weren't any (good) GPL-ed Webmail
clients when Leon started Acmemail and when I (well, Mark and I) were
working on it to get it integrated for a free ISP I hunted around and
there wasn't anything nearly as good (IMO) except Malcom Beattie's Wing
(http://users.ox.ac.uk/~mbeattie/wing/) which I looked at but didn't
like the structure.

It's a pity Acmemail never really took off (apart from being ripped off
and turned into a succesful company by At-mail) because it had loads of
great fetaures, was easy to extend and customise (especially the latest
development branch) and could easily (a month of good hacking) have had
feature sets to rival or beat anything I've seen including Hotmail and
Yahoomail.

On the other hand I learnt a lot about writing good, abstracted, large
scale CGI applications and maintainable, reusable code. I learnt about
doing mail and MIME properly under Perl, about working as a team on
code, Open Source software development models, that Mail::Cclient is
powerful but complicated and can be a bitch to install, supporting users
(God some of them are stupid) and writing documentation and installation
guides. 

Which was nice.

Re: Election Manifestos

[Simon Cozens]

On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:43:23AM +0100, Leon Brocard wrote:
> It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.

Yet Another Webmail Client; it wasn't exactly filling a gaping niche.
(And I say that as someone who may soon be maintaining one of the others...)

-- 
4.2BSD may not be a complete disaster, but it does a good job of emulating one.

RE: Election Manifestos

[Mark Fowler]

On Wed, 23 May 2001, Cross David - dcross wrote:

> I've had another idea tho'. Why don't we install acmemail on Penderel and
> suggest that people with braindead mail clients use that?
>
> This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's definition of a
> decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just slap the authors until it
> does :)

Oi, what did I ever do to you.  Slap Leon around as much as you want, but
leave me out of it.

Later.

Mark.

(who suggests that someone writes a script that will accept mail, fixxor
the threading into a proper format and sends it on, security allowing...)

RE: Election Manifestos

[Cross David - dcross]

From: Leon Brocard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 9:43 AM

> Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:
> 
> > This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's
> > definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just
> > slap the authors until it does :)
> 
> You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while
> back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it
> c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a
> couple of guys in the acmemail "community" who are slowly plodding
> along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.

OK. But you'd still be able to install it far easier than anyone else in the
group :)

Dave...

-- 


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Re: Election Manifestos

[Leon Brocard]

Cross David - dcross sent the following bits through the ether:

> This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's
> definition of a decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just
> slap the authors until it does :)

You'll be happy to know that I gave up ownership of acmemail a while
back stating that: a) I wasn't using it b) hence I wasn't improving it
c) I don't have time for things I don't use. I handed it over to a
couple of guys in the acmemail "community" who are slowly plodding
along. It didn't hit critical mass. Discuss.

Leon
-- 
... My other computer is a 500-node Beowulf cluster

new york

[Greg McCarroll]

Well back from sunny NY to good old London and what do i have
waiting for me, thats right 200+ messages in London.pm! Hurrah!

So instead of replying to them seperatly, I thought I'd just
write a rambling email. 

First off, FHM 100 sexiest women, well it all comes down to
your definition of what sexy means, and while I don't agree
with Dave Cross' opinion about it being wrong and evil,
I tend to agree that a picture can't really be
sexy. I think a picture can however show attractiveness based
on a set of standards/ideals which may not be everyones cup
of tea. The reason I don't think it wrong is that most of the
people featured make their living out of selling this
2 dimensional image and already i'd imagine can seperate
it from who they are.

New York was great, I took some of you guys' advice and
did the Circle Line, really a good tour, loved the stories
about Grant's `Tomb', the Chrysler building, the Yankee stadium 
etc. I also met up with dha and went to a strange pub with whips and
shackles on the walls - apparently this is quite normal
for greenich village. I finished it off in true intellectual
style by going to WWF new york and enjoying some wrestling.
 
Anyway speak to you all soon.

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Sara Cox - was Re: FHM Top 100 Sexiest Women

[Greg McCarroll]

* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:17:11PM +0100, Barbie wrote:
> > 
> > Bugger! Brain thinking faster than my hands!
> 
> Your hands *think*???
> 

in fact, it was a recent Angel episode

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

Re: Sara Cox - was Re: FHM Top 100 Sexiest Women

[Greg McCarroll]

* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:17:11PM +0100, Barbie wrote:
> > 
> > Bugger! Brain thinking faster than my hands!
> 
> Your hands *think*???
> 
> dha, sees a sci-fi movie in here somewhere...
> 

that ones been done to death

-- 
Greg McCarroll  http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net

RE: Election Manifestos

[Cross David - dcross]

From: Paul Makepeace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 8:00 AM

> On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:49:48AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote:
> > Yes, there _are_ always round it, but some people don't have the time 
> > or knowledge to do that.
> 
> You're more than welcome to snag this Java 1.1 SSH client at 
> 
> http://paulm.com/login/index.html
> http://paulm.com/login/mindtermfull.jar

Thanks Paul. I'll investigate that when I next have a free half hour.

I've had another idea tho'. Why don't we install acmemail on Penderel and
suggest that people with braindead mail clients use that?

This, of course, presupposes that acmemail passes everyone's definition of a
decent mail client. And if it doesn't, we can just slap the authors until it
does :)

Dave...
[positive suggestions r us]

-- 


The information contained in this communication is
confidential, is intended only for the use of the recipient
named above, and may be legally privileged. If the reader 
of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or
copying of this communication is strictly prohibited.  
If you have received this communication in error, please 
re-send this communication to the sender and delete the 
original message or any copy of it from your computer
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