* David H. Adler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:55:46AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
> >
> > I see a topic far in the distance and rapidly dwindling...
>
> Topic? What's a topic?
>
A London.pm thread topic is like a non-alchoholic ingredient in a cocktail,
its onl
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:55:46AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
>
> I see a topic far in the distance and rapidly dwindling...
Topic? What's a topic?
:-)
--
David H. Adler - <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - http://www.panix.com/~dha/
Six course banquet of nothing, with a scoop of sod-all for a palate
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:14:08AM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2001, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> > On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:41:20AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> > > Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> > > > assuming you can get into a bourne shell, you can
> > > > still do things li
At 16:31 11/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
there are too
many organisations (notably schools, as well as companies) pushing
excessive technical responsibilities onto unqualified and inexperienced
staff.
That's actually a really good point (about the schools). You hear about all
these 'computers for sch
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:05:21PM +0100, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
>
> The average bottom rung mechanic knows as much about cars as the average
> bottom rung tech support guy knows about computers.
Okay. I know very little of the vehicle maintenance industry, so it was
a poor choice of analogy,
At 15:42 11/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
It goes a little further than that. Cars are now consumer devices; but
if you were deploying a fleet of new company vans, you wouldn't expect
the random office guy who'd read a dummies book to maintain them - you'd
hire a mechanic.
Hmmm.. You're suggesting th
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:32:15AM +0100, Roger Burton West wrote:
>
> ObRant: computers and OSes in their current state are not consumer devices.
ObRantContinuation:
It goes a little further than that. Cars are now consumer devices; but
if you were deploying a fleet of new company vans, you wo
At 10:05 AM 2001.05.11 +0100, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
>On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:25:00PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
>> If your terminal has flow control enabled it will eat ^Q and ^S
>> for you. stty -ixon removes this problem.
>
>But then how do you pause that long ls listing when your
>less,m
* at 11/05 12:07 +0100 Dave Hodgkinson said:
> Struan Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > There is a very real argument for devices that do one thing and one
> > thing only but do it in a very simple way without all the flimflam
> > that accompanies most modern computers. Donald Norman has q
Struan Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> There is a very real argument for devices that do one thing and one
> thing only but do it in a very simple way without all the flimflam
> that accompanies most modern computers. Donald Norman has quite a few
> good books on this.
Agreed, but they MUST
* at 11/05 11:49 +0100 Dave Hodgkinson said:
> Roger Burton West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Putting pretty interfaces on existing unstable systems does not
> > help to make them simpler...
>
> That's part of it. Landing a thudding great book of what the thing
> _can_ do, rather than a coo
Roger Burton West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Putting pretty interfaces on existing unstable systems does not
> help to make them simpler...
That's part of it. Landing a thudding great book of what the thing
_can_ do, rather than a cookbook of what you _want_ it to do is very
offputting.
Ther
At 11:37 11/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
but then any reasonably flexible multi-purpose device is always going
to have a hard time being a consumer device as by it's nature it's
complex and trying to make complex things appear simple is very very
hard.
I can never work out if life is getting simpler
On or about Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:32:33AM +0100, Dave Hodgkinson typed:
>Roger Burton West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> ObRant: computers and OSes in their current state are not consumer devices.
>> They're not sufficiently reliable or intuitive. Bad marketing has made
>> people think they nee
On or about Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:37:20AM +0100, Struan Donald typed:
>but then any reasonably flexible multi-purpose device is always going
>to have a hard time being a consumer device as by it's nature it's
>complex and trying to make complex things appear simple is very very
>hard.
Yes.
Th
Roger Burton West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> ObRant: computers and OSes in their current state are not consumer devices.
> They're not sufficiently reliable or intuitive. Bad marketing has made
> people think they need the things; most of them are wrong...
OK, so what does it take?
For me, t
* at 11/05 11:32 +0100 Roger Burton West said:
> On or about Fri, May 11, 2001 at 10:48:41AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson typed:
>
> >You know, from the outside, Unix looks so well designed and clean and modern...
>
> >From the outside, Windows looks as if it works.
>
> ObRant: computers and OSes i
On or about Fri, May 11, 2001 at 10:48:41AM +0100, Jonathan Peterson typed:
>You know, from the outside, Unix looks so well designed and clean and modern...
>From the outside, Windows looks as if it works.
ObRant: computers and OSes in their current state are not consumer devices.
They're not s
At 10:32 11/05/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Dominic Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:25:00PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > > If your terminal has flow control enabled it will eat ^Q and ^S for you.
> > > stty -ixon
> > > removes this problem.
> >
> > But then how d
Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
> That breaks if the line is longer than the width of your screen.
So do a lot of cheap "pager" routines.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
All opinions are my own, not my employer's.
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitat
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:14:08AM +0100, Matthew Byng-Maddick wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2001, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> > On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:41:20AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> > > Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> > > > assuming you can get into a bourne shell, you can
> > > > still do things li
On Fri, 11 May 2001, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:41:20AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> > Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> > > assuming you can get into a bourne shell, you can
> > > still do things like write cat(1) in sh, as well.
> > This is not going to help you pause output.
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:41:20AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> > assuming you can get into a bourne shell, you can
> > still do things like write cat(1) in sh, as well.
>
> This is not going to help you pause output.
>
> > Although it'd be hard to control without ^S a
On Thu, 10 May 2001 22:25:00 +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> (Someone has a quote about the only safe thing to send down a serial line
> being a break, because emacs interprets every character)
You mean this?
"On a normal ascii line, the only safe condition to detect is a 'BREAK'
- everything els
Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> assuming you can get into a bourne shell, you can
> still do things like write cat(1) in sh, as well.
This is not going to help you pause output.
> Although it'd be hard to control without ^S and ^Q,
...which was what the original post was all about.
Cheers,
Philip
--
Dominic Mitchell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:25:00PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > If your terminal has flow control enabled it will eat ^Q and ^S for you.
> > stty -ixon
> > removes this problem.
>
> But then how do you pause that long ls listing when your
> less
On Fri, May 11, 2001 at 11:10:13AM +0200, Philip Newton wrote:
> Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> > On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:25:00PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > > If your terminal has flow control enabled it will eat ^Q
> > > and ^S for you.
> > > stty -ixon
> > > removes this problem.
> >
> > B
Dominic Mitchell wrote:
> On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:25:00PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> > If your terminal has flow control enabled it will eat ^Q
> > and ^S for you.
> > stty -ixon
> > removes this problem.
>
> But then how do you pause that long ls listing when your
> less,more,pg,sed,awk&
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 10:25:00PM +0100, Nicholas Clark wrote:
> If your terminal has flow control enabled it will eat ^Q and ^S for you.
> stty -ixon
> removes this problem.
But then how do you pause that long ls listing when your
less,more,pg,sed,awk&perl binaries are all fscked? :-)
-Dom
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:44:41PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote:
> * at 10/05 16:37 +0100 Dominic Mitchell said:
> > Generally you can enter a control character into vi and most Unix shells
> > by pressing ^V and then the character you want.
>
> ah, thanks
>
> > In Emacs, it's ^Q, then the chara
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:44:41PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote:
> > In Emacs, it's ^Q, then the character you want.
>
> only ^Q? that's not like emacs :)
Well, it's assuming that nobody's fiddled with the keymaps. You could
alternatively do:
M-x quoted-insert RET RET
-Dom
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:35:29PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote:
> kind of off topic but how do you get things like ^M and such like into
> a file for, say, writing vi macros?
perl -e 'print "\cM"' >> my-file
>;-)
.robin.
ps. Dominic's already given a proper answer...
--
Flee to me, remote el
* at 10/05 16:37 +0100 Dominic Mitchell said:
> On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:35:29PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote:
> > kind of off topic but how do you get things like ^M and such like into
> > a file for, say, writing vi macros?
> >
> > i've had a look through some docs but i'm beggining to suspect
On or about Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:35:29PM +0100, Struan Donald typed:
>kind of off topic but how do you get things like ^M and such like into
>a file for, say, writing vi macros?
ctrl-x 0 d
but using it in a search/replace pattern is harder.
Roger
On Thu, May 10, 2001 at 04:35:29PM +0100, Struan Donald wrote:
> kind of off topic but how do you get things like ^M and such like into
> a file for, say, writing vi macros?
>
> i've had a look through some docs but i'm beggining to suspect it's
> one of those bit of unix aracana know to a chosen
kind of off topic but how do you get things like ^M and such like into
a file for, say, writing vi macros?
i've had a look through some docs but i'm beggining to suspect it's
one of those bit of unix aracana know to a chosen few. or is there
some site/resource that contains this info?
ta
struan
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