[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
Reportedly he and his companion traveled over the Alps to Innsbruck during a blizzard. He was with Philippe Camerarius, an associate of Martin Luther who had recently been freed from being imprisoned by the Roman Inquisition. They traveled through Siena where they stayed at the Inn of the Mermaid (or Siren, a symbol associated with Siena; the Siena Lute Book has a watermark representing a siren). Here's another engraving of MN aged 43: https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-d59b-a3d9-e040-e00a1 8064a99 Arthur -Original Message- From: Joachim Lüdtke To: David Van Edwards Cc: Tristan von Neumann ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2019 8:59 am Subject: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again At 12:48 +0100 11/11/19, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in Venice, Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the Alps, in deep snow and at freezing temperature. Some piece of hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him during the passage à ;) Joachim dler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
That is a lazy excuse :) Please go on about the brushwork. On 11.11.19 15:28, r.turov...@gmail.com wrote: It would be too complicated for a layman. You have to simmer in paint for years to understand how style works. In a nutshell - brushwork tells all. RT http://turovsky.org Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes. On Nov 11, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, claiming some uncorroborated prowess does not make me understand what is going on in the painting. Can you at least *try* to describe to me how you came to your conclusion? As I said. I want to learn, and just having to trust you does not make me feel comfortable. :) T* On 11.11.19 14:53, Roman Turovsky wrote: I have a 50 year experience in visual arts, so... Stylistically is absolutely post-1600. It is also worth looking at such material culture elements as clothing, same anachronism. RT On 11/10/2019 11:50 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: You just repeated yourself... You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, without any explanation... :) T* On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. It also doesn't look look German. RT On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the Neusiedler's life dates. RT On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: I posted Arthur’s picture of Melchior Newsidler at https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
It's also well possible that he met with highway men! :) -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T13:03:31+0100 Von: "David Van Edwards" An: "Joachim Lüdtke" But it would have to have been on the way back! Was that in Winter too? ;) David At 12:48 +0100 11/11/19, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in Venice, Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the Alps, in deep snow and at freezing temperature. Some piece of hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him during the passage Š;) Joachim dler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100 Von: "David Van Edwards" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Even the museum don't say it is German, the artists suggested are Italian http://samling.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/object/NG.M.01341# But Melchior did visit Italy in 1565, 9 years before his undoubted portrait by Stimmer. And the resemblance is possible but slight. The main difference is the top half of his left ear which Stimmer shows as flattened rather than curled forwards. Maybe he was attacked in the intervening 9 years!? Is there any real evidence though? Best wishes, David At 11:32 +0100 11/11/19, Tristan von Neumann wrote: >Please Joachim :) > >There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are uttered. > >What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait? > > > > >On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: >>Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is >>green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary >>portrait by a German painter, Roman is right. >> >>All best >> >>Joachim >> >>-Original-Nachricht- >>Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again >>Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100 >>Von: "Tristan von Neumann" >>An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" >> >>You just repeated yourself... >> >>You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, >>without any explanation... >> >> >>:) >> >>T* >> >> >> >> >>On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: >>>Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. >>>The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. >>>It also doesn't look look German. >>>RT >>> >>>On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: >What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? >The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the >Neusiedler's life dates. >RT > > > >On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: >>I posted Arthurâ°�s picture of Melchior Newsidler at >> >>https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg >> >> Wayne >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk  --
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
I have a 50 year experience in visual arts, so... Stylistically is absolutely post-1600. It is also worth looking at such material culture elements as clothing, same anachronism. RT On 11/10/2019 11:50 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: You just repeated yourself... You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, without any explanation... :) T* On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. It also doesn't look look German. RT On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the Neusiedler's life dates. RT On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: I posted Arthur’s picture of Melchior Newsidler at https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
But it would have to have been on the way back! Was that in Winter too? ;) David At 12:48 +0100 11/11/19, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in Venice, Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the Alps, in deep snow and at freezing temperature. Some piece of hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him during the passage ;) Joachim dler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100 Von: "David Van Edwards" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Even the museum don't say it is German, the artists suggested are Italian http://samling.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/object/NG.M.01341# But Melchior did visit Italy in 1565, 9 years before his undoubted portrait by Stimmer. And the resemblance is possible but slight. The main difference is the top half of his left ear which Stimmer shows as flattened rather than curled forwards. Maybe he was attacked in the intervening 9 years!? Is there any real evidence though? Best wishes, David At 11:32 +0100 11/11/19, Tristan von Neumann wrote: >Please Joachim :) > >There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are uttered. > >What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait? > > > > >On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: >>Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is >>green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary >>portrait by a German painter, Roman is right. >> >>All best >> >>Joachim >> >>-Original-Nachricht- >>Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again >>Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100 >>Von: "Tristan von Neumann" >>An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" >> >>You just repeated yourself... >> >>You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, >>without any explanation... >> >> >>:) >> >>T* >> >> >> >> >>On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: >>>Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. >>>The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. >>>It also doesn't look look German. >>>RT >>> >>>On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: >What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? >The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the >Neusiedler's life dates. >RT > > > >On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: >>I posted Arthurâ°�s picture of Melchior Newsidler at >> >>https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg >> >> Wayne >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk --
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in Venice, Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the Alps, in deep snow and at freezing temperature. Some piece of hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him during the passage … ;) Joachim dler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100 Von: "David Van Edwards" An: "Tristan von Neumann" Even the museum don't say it is German, the artists suggested are Italian http://samling.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/object/NG.M.01341# But Melchior did visit Italy in 1565, 9 years before his undoubted portrait by Stimmer. And the resemblance is possible but slight. The main difference is the top half of his left ear which Stimmer shows as flattened rather than curled forwards. Maybe he was attacked in the intervening 9 years!? Is there any real evidence though? Best wishes, David At 11:32 +0100 11/11/19, Tristan von Neumann wrote: >Please Joachim :) > >There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are uttered. > >What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait? > > > > >On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: >>Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is >>green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary >>portrait by a German painter, Roman is right. >> >>All best >> >>Joachim >> >>-Original-Nachricht- >>Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again >>Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100 >>Von: "Tristan von Neumann" >>An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" >> >>You just repeated yourself... >> >>You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, >>without any explanation... >> >> >>:) >> >>T* >> >> >> >> >>On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: >>>Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. >>>The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. >>>It also doesn't look look German. >>>RT >>> >>>On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: >What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? >The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the >Neusiedler's life dates. >RT > > > >On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: >>I posted Arthurâ¤s picture of Melchior Newsidler at >> >>https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg >> >> Wayne >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
So it is on Arthur, who brought this up, to deliver some insight about his sources or reasoning. Arthur? :) The painting seems to show a composer though. Who could it be? The scroll doesn't reveal much... :) T* On 11.11.19 12:01, David Van Edwards wrote: Even the museum don't say it is German, the artists suggested are Italian http://samling.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/object/NG.M.01341# But Melchior did visit Italy in 1565, 9 years before his undoubted portrait by Stimmer. And the resemblance is possible but slight. The main difference is the top half of his left ear which Stimmer shows as flattened rather than curled forwards. Maybe he was attacked in the intervening 9 years!? Is there any real evidence though? Best wishes, David At 11:32 +0100 11/11/19, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Please Joachim :) There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are uttered. What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait? On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary portrait by a German painter, Roman is right. All best Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100 Von: "Tristan von Neumann" An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" You just repeated yourself... You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, without any explanation... :) T* On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. It also doesn't look look German. RT On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the Neusiedler's life dates. RT On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: I posted Arthurâ¤s picture of Melchior Newsidler at https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
Even the museum don't say it is German, the artists suggested are Italian http://samling.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/object/NG.M.01341# But Melchior did visit Italy in 1565, 9 years before his undoubted portrait by Stimmer. And the resemblance is possible but slight. The main difference is the top half of his left ear which Stimmer shows as flattened rather than curled forwards. Maybe he was attacked in the intervening 9 years!? Is there any real evidence though? Best wishes, David At 11:32 +0100 11/11/19, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Please Joachim :) There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are uttered. What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait? On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary portrait by a German painter, Roman is right. All best Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100 Von: "Tristan von Neumann" An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" You just repeated yourself... You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, without any explanation... :) T* On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. It also doesn't look look German. RT On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the Neusiedler's life dates. RT On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: I posted Arthurâ¤s picture of Melchior Newsidler at https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
Please Joachim :) There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are uttered. What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait? On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary portrait by a German painter, Roman is right. All best Joachim -Original-Nachricht- Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100 Von: "Tristan von Neumann" An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" You just repeated yourself... You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style, without any explanation... :) T* On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary. The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's. It also doesn't look look German. RT On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument? On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler? The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the Neusiedler's life dates. RT On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote: I posted Arthur’s picture of Melchior Newsidler at https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
