lute cryptography
Dear LUTENISTS,
Can anybody explain the kinde of notation as below - is it a new, 21st
C lute tablature? - or point to some handbook or a web page.
With thanks in advance.
Jerzy
-t
-f
{1574_no_30_Fuggerin_Danz__Folget_der_Hupffauff/MN}
b
0cdda
1cdd
x a
b
2cdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdd
x a
b
xcdda
x daac
xabb d
xcdda
b
xddf d
2 f
x g
1ddf
x d
b
0cdda
1cdd
x a
b
2cdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdd
x a
b
xcdda
x daac
xabb d
xcdda
b
b
xddf d
2 f
x g
1ddf
x d
b
1.ha f
2f
1 i f
xh
b
1.fdda
2d
1cdda
xf
b
2dabc
xc
xa
x d
xacd a
xd
xc
xa
b
xcdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdd
x a
b
1.ha f
2f
1 i f
xh
b
1.fdda
2d
1cdda
xf
b
b
2dabc
xc
xa
x d
xacd a
xd
xc
xa
b
xcdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdd
x a
b
1.fcd a
2 d
1acd
xa
b
xacd a
2 c
x d
1acd a
xcdda
b
xaab d
x daac
x ddca
x c
b
1. ddef
2 f
1 dde
xf
b
1acd a
2 a
x c
x d
x a
x c
x d
b
b
1acd a
2 c
x d
1acd a
xcdda
b
xaab d
x daac
x ddca
x c
b
1. ddef
2 f
1 dde
xf
b
b
0cdda
1cdda
b
2cdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdda
b
x daac
xabb d
xcdda
b
xddf d
2 f
x g
1ddf d
b
0cdda
1cdda
b
2cdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdda
b
b
x daac
xabb d
xcdda
b
xddf d
2 f
x g
1ddf d
b
1.ha f
2f
1 i f
b
1.fdda
2d
1cdda
b
xdabc
2acd a
xd
xc
xa
b
xcdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdda
b
1.ha f
2f
1 i f
b
1.fdda
2d
1cdda
b
xdabc
2acd a
xd
xc
xa
b
b
xcdda
xa
xc
xd
1cdda
b
0acd a
1acd a
b
xacd a
2 d
xa
1cdda
b
xaab d
x daac
x cdca
b
1. ddef
2 f
1 ddef
b
2acd a
x a
x d
x a
x c
x d
b
1acd a
2 d
xa
1cdda
b
xaab d
x daac
x cdca
b
1. ddef
2 f
1 ddef
b
b
b
e
Re: Historical cost of lutes.
Today, a good lute runs, say, from 0.5 - 1.0 months' salary
(depending, of
course, on both salary level and lute cost).
.. and a country, Herbert !!!
In some European countries it runs from 4 months ('student lute') to 2
years' salary, ...but it's getting better.
Jerzy
Re: Facsimeles etc.
On Wednesday, Dec 3, 2003, at 23:04 Europe/Warsaw, Matanya Ophee wrote: But should new material come to light, there is no chance it will enter into general circulation any time soon. Viz. the availability to the Francesco Castelfranco new discoveries. And this is only one of the more recent discoveries that will be a long time in hiding from the lute community. What are the new discoveries of Francesco Castelfranco? What are the other more recent discoveries?? Jerzy
Proportio/Tripla
On Thursday, Dec 4, 2003, at 18:15 Europe/Warsaw, Roman Turovsky wrote: ... Well, there are some potential linguistic pitfalls, stemming from the differences between American and British versions of English, as well as considerable differences in thinking patterns: people tend to be A BIT more elliptical in Midlands than in Iowa, and a direct statement American style could get them discombobulated. Having said that, I DO NOT think that Stewart is capable of that deadly half-smile of condecsension for which I fondly remember Sir Nigel North. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org Roman, I am ELLIPTICALLY grateful to you, that now I can better understand tiny nuances between Midlands, Iowa and British English. In between of creating those, no doubts, precious remarks (definitely OT) you might correct the omissions of all duble/repet bars in your version of ''[B] P'', f.20v from Danzig Lautenbuch Ms 4022 (now in Berlin), on your http://polyhymnion.org as ''Ballo Polacco (La Mantovana)''. In the first part of the piece double bars OPTICALLY helps much in understanding and memorising a piece. In the second part (indistinguishable in your edition) the repeat bars would simply save space. Such a miniature piece on one page + one line and a bar? In original it takes only half of the page. But first of all the second/last part (4 bars + 6 bars), which is much simpler and does not have written out repetitions (contrary to your version), is a kind of a problem, in my view. It is written in the same duple time (crossed C) as the the first part, but I think might/should be played in three, as tripla/proportio, so popular in this time and genre of music. Proportio, after the ''main'' piece, could be written out in a printed XVI/XVIIth C edition or left out in a manuscript for extemporisation in a ''usual'' way. The more the written out repeats are completely out of place on paper (either of cellulose or electricity). This is not a statement but a matter for discussion... as the Art of Editing early music. And please, don't kill me with discombobulation, condeSCension and whatever you have at your undoubtedly creative hand - this is, as I understand, an International Lute-list. Yours, Jerzy PS. Most probably the piece should be called ''Balletto Polacho'' (spelling) as the other one on f.16, but that's really unimportant.
Re: Recent discoveries (Facsimeles etc.)
Dear Matanya, Thank you for your answer. On Thursday, Dec 4, 2003, at 19:43 Europe/Warsaw, Matanya Ophee wrote: At 06:14 PM 12/4/2003 +0100, Jerzy ZAK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Matanya, ... But time showed that some people prefer wasting time - ours, mine, on personal quarrels. This last quarrel was not personal. I avoided the thread until Albert Reyerman had a chance to defend himself ... The rest of this ugly affair is in no need of being mentioned. I understand your point and am the last to continue in that spirit. ... What are the discoveries of Francesco Castelfranco, and other recent discoveries? ... The subject has been mentioned here before, mostly by Arthur Ness who will be better informed about this than I am. As for other discoveries, it is only a simple postulate that argues that we have no way of knowing what it is we do not know. New things come up for air all the time. This is obvious. I was personally a wittness of more then one ''discovery'' or ''rediscovery'' of a lute MS in Poland and all this happend outside of RISM (Repertoire International des Sources Musicales) network and operations - I'll reftrain from commenting on that organization. All this happens by chance or through someones often ''controversial'' activity... For example, many years ago, I photographed in Leningrad., when it was still Leningrad, a lute manuscript in one library. ... One of these days, when I am in a better mood and when I can deal with lute music and lutenists directly, without regard to my so-called reputation, I may investigate this further. Don't cry Mataniy, don't wait for a better mood - lutenists are all the same as guitarists, flutists, programers and bankers. Find a distance, don't get involved in particulars... Tell us what's on the film and either publish it (perhaps not in USA or Switzerland, if you don't want to complain about sales) or leave to someone for a Ph.D. elaboration, if that's better destination. Don't hide, we are looking forward. As to the situation in either Mascow or St Petersburg archives, it's a mine of new or forgotten things - I asure you! I can publically say only so, I'm not of the power of Christoph Wolff who could have done a mega-move of the whole one of the old Berlin archives from Kijev back to Berlin - few years ago! Does anybody know if the catalogue, as promised, is already available? Ears up, Matanya (as we say here), find that film! Yours, Jerzy
LUTE list
Well, I see it is not a lute discussion list. Does anybody know some other? Jerzy On Friday, Dec 12, 2003, at 03:33 Europe/Warsaw, Michael Thames wrote: Vance, You seem to be obsessed with this Nazi thing. I never mentioned race, = or Jews, or Germans etc. I actually thought MO was French, no offence to = the French, their wonderful people. MO, seemed to be amazed that I never read his biography, but what = can I say, I never did, and the truth is, I've never set foot on his = website either.. Vance, I thought all self described conservatives as yourself, don't = pull the race card. Funny isn't it? I think your doing the victims of real crimes of the holocaust a = huge insult it drop it down to this level. Shame on you! As far as the use of the word Nazi, is concerned, I can only say it = like this. The Nazis where the most horrific, evil, merciless, people I = can think of. They were of different races. Nazis were German, = Italian, Russian, and now these days American etc. It is a state of = mind!=20 I view MO to be one of the nastiest, horrific, dictatorial, close = minded, and evil intended people, that I have ever run across in my = life, I have heard of his prosecution of others as well. So the word = Nazi stands! However It was a mistake to call him a Bastard, as I am = uncertain of this. =20 =20 Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames --
Re: (serious/popular)
Thanks for joinin, Peter, On Friday, Dec 12, 2003, at 12:31 Europe/Warsaw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Jurek (Jerzy), ... There were real stars among both groups, whose names became known to the history, and thousands of others forgotten.' .. Look at for example the editions of Francesco da Milano or Bakfark: Only 'serious/highbrow' music like fantasies and intabulations. Not a single 'popular' piece like songs, or dance music and the like. Thus without saying it, they made very much a distinction between serious and popular. Best regards, Peter So, in a way, they were both ''serious and popular''. But I, since long, cannot accept somehow they were really that serious and profund, without creating/playing a single dance movement. Simply, I do not trust, life is not that sad all the time... Jurek (for Jerzy), which I really prefare - thaks Peter!
to RT ... / failure notice
I am sorry I use the List address for private communication but some of my emails (not only to Roman) are comming back for reasons I don't understand. Do you, Roman, have some idea why this happens with your server??? If you have some other address, please let me know. Jurek - On Tuesday, Dec 16, 2003, at 20:53 Europe/Warsaw, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi. This message was created automatically by mail system at Wirtualna Polska. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 206.46.170.12 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 you are not allowed to send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Giving up on 206.46.170.12. Below this line is a copy of the message. ...
Re: OT, but maybe interesting
Dear Thomas, I passed your news of the Cologne musicologist Sebnem Yavuz about the Gregorian chant to my wife who is a theologian. Here I summerise what she told me - rather surprised by the ''discovery'' of facts that are well known ''in the profession'' since long. ''The Gregorian chant is not named after its creator, but becouse the chant used in liturgy of the Church has been CODIFIED during the pontificate of the pope Gregor I the Great (590-604). The sole name is later by 250 years - the expression ''carmen gregorianum'' was first used by pope Leo IV ca 850. There are at least three theories concerning the origins of the Gregorian chant: -- the creator of the chants was Gregor the Great -- the chant was created and shaped earlier and only edited by Gregor (one can find some characteristic elements of the Gregorian chant e.g. in the so called 'sacramentarium Leonianum' of the Vth C.) -- the Gregorian chant was shaped after Gregor I, during the liturgical reform of the pope Vitalis (657-672). Tha small time space between the pontificate of Gregor and of Vitalis as well as great merits of Gregor caused that all activity around liturgical reforms then were attribute to Gregor I.'' Boethius and his contribution is also well known, so... it's very hard to make a reall discovery nowadays, unless public media needs one. Don't ask me for more detailes on the subject - it's enough OT, however some of us might be interested in. Best to you and All, Jurek On Tuesday, Dec 30, 2003, at 01:13 Europe/Warsaw, Thomas Schall wrote: Hi, this was posted at the orpheo group and I thought it could be - although clearly off topic - of some interest for the one or the other. Best wishes Thomas ... Gregorian Chant: Historical Fallacy By Paul Moor MusicalAmerica.com December 24, 2003 BERLIN - After seven years of research, the Cologne musicologist Sebnem Yavuz has presumably debunked traditional Gregorian chant, proving to the satisfaction of some of Germany's most exigent musicologists that Pope Gregory had nothingto do with its origins, charging that he stole the melodies from the 6th century Roman philosopher and musical theorist Boethius. This attracted its first widespread general attention on Dec. 19, when the nationwide ZDF (Second German Television) network featured the complete story in aspekte, its outstanding fortnightly half-hour Kulturmagazin. ..
Re: OT, but maybe interesting
Dear Thomas and Mathias, Unfortunately massmedia prey on topics like 'Jesus, Qumran und der Vatican' or 'Verschlußsache Jesus' - the books, however not easy to read, were bestsellers in Germany for years in early 90's, you may remember that. There is a market for stories like 'good Boethius and bad pope' and just wait for 'Jesus' mariage with Maria Magdalena in Cashmere'. All TV chanells - NDR, ARD and ZDF, including American, Polish, Finish or Australian would be delighted to show 'the truth'. I wish you to see sometime in your life just 1% of the money involved... Lets better get back to what people can say about your Haydn from Augsburg. That's a guesswork too, but how much nicer... Jurek - On Tuesday, Dec 30, 2003, at 22:06 Europe/Warsaw, Thomas Schall wrote: Dear Jerzy, thank you and your wife very much for the information. I already knew the gregorian chant wasn't developed by Gregor but a connection to Boethius was new to me. If this is already known my prejudices about german TV in general (and it's relation to culture in special) is confirmed again. Best wishes Thomas
Re: Django 7.37 released
Dear Alain, I appreciate you work much, but I would do much more... if you had a mac version some time, too ;-) After having a look at your PDF with Siena_155, let me ask you one thing. Having a piece of 51 bars isn't it possible in Django to fit it on three pages, and not on three plus one system? That's something I see on most of the pages set in tablature processing programs nowadays, sometimes it's even one bar hanging on an extra page (and an empty rest of the staff)... Or is it unimportant to most users? I'm sorry if the answer is obvious to experienced windowsers, but I'm behaved to a different music software and different page layout philosophy. It may be, however, that you convince me somehow and I may consider buying a PC, who knows... Jurek -- On Sunday, Jan 11, 2004, at 19:42 Europe/Warsaw, Alain Veylit wrote: Dear lutenists, I am very happy to announce the release of version 7.37 of the Django software. That version includes many improvements at the graphical and notation levels, as well as a new function to export the data to the MusicXML format, to increase the chances that the intabulations made with the software will endure for some time to come. XML also allows for a better inter-operability with other music softwares like Finale, Lime, Sibelius, etc. A complete demo version set-up file can be found at http://webpages.charter.net/django/ and a PDF format file showing some of the new capabilities of the software is available at http://webpages.charter.net/django/Siena_155.pdf . The demo file in the demo version includes the weird setting of Lachrimae by Besard, an ayr by John Adson, a baroque piece from the Robarts L.B. and the setting of Robin from the Folger MS. I have not had time yet to fully update the help files - apparently my Christmas vacation time was not long enough... - but I will try to do so in the near future. The price of the registration of the software will go from 80 US dollars to 100 at the end of January. I am currently in contact with the French lute society to offer their members a $25 discount and will be happy to offer the same to other lute societies that contact me for that purpose. As one of the people who spent quite a few hours programming lute music software, I am very grateful to Goran Crona and the American LSA for their new Fronimo dialogo project which I think points to new exciting ways of making our music more available. Happy playing all, Alain
Re: equal temperament
On Friday, January 30, 2004, at 04:01 PM, Roman Turovsky wrote: The WTC then becomes an interesting exercise in *composing* in different keys (because each key has its own character), rather than an exercise in *playing* in any key (which is trivial). I'm sorry - writing for writing. Try to play ''in any key''! This is a matter of opinion, and I personally find nothing trivial about it. Unequal temperament may give some flavour to earlier music that blandly never strays to far from the home key, but in the era in which modulation became an important element of expression ET is anything but trivial. It is INDISPENSABLE, as a matter of fact. RT Crazily loving modulations (which are so rare in Baroque literature) I undersigne with both hands. jurek
Re: also....
Roman, You are completly unreachable to me at both your known addresses. Will you please ask both the @verizon.net and @att.net if one can ever communicate with you from @poczta.wp.pl. I wouldn't like to bother this forum with such problems any more, so lets find answer on both sides... To your link on TEORBA I've replyed with this -- http://www.avant-scene-theatre.com/htm/piece.asp?id_piece=924 http://www.christiansimeon.com/biographie/biographie.html which is, BTW, not entirely OT. Beside, congratulations on your ''...First time ever in public''' performance! jurek
Re: Thoroughbass Playing ...
On Tuesday, Mar 23, 2004, at 14:40 Europe/Warsaw, Roman Turovsky wrote: .. IMO: Baroque Lute is ill-suited to any group endeavor, excepted accompanying a single voice singing maximum at mezza voce. It is destined to be a PRIVATE instrument, like clavichord, as I said elsewhere. What is private and what is public in terms of 18th C. and 21st C. --? Very complicated matter, indeed. Where would you then situate a CD recording as a musical ''performance''. All parameters has changed since 1700/1800 so phonography could perhaps be considered as a modern equivalent to the pre-romantic chamber performances??? Existence of fine chamber music with Baroque Lute does not disprove this, for it makes for a painful listening experience. Instruments smother the lute, making audible only wrong/sour notes, or rhythmic mistakes. .. or performers are still not that good as Reusner, Weiss and Hagen .. or modern ''baroque'' string players are unable for the true compromise (but they are always happy for a compromise in the oposite direction). In fact a lute faces a similar problem as the baroque traverso flute... IMO Anyway such chamber music is not for public either, it is still possible to hear a lute in a trio facing each other in a small room, but the audience won't hear a thing except the mistakes. It's hard to believe for me, considering more then 20 lute duets, over 150 trios with liuto obligato, and some 50 concerti which were advertise by the J.G.I.Breitkopf firm in their 1760, 1761, and 1770 catalogues. Moreover, several 17th and 18th C. generations of lutenists were playing BC on the d-minor tuning, for what there is a documentation -- no place here to cite... Kropfgans was one of the latest, who was especialy priced for that job in oratorios (!) and Hiller operettas in Leipzig in 1760's. I'm convinced the world was definitely softer in those days. - - - - - - - - Beside, Roman, would you please chack with your SPs -- @verizon.net, @att.net and @polyhymnion.org, why they block ALL messages from @wp.pl. Please, do not give me another try, just ask THEM. Jurek
Re: Thoroughbass Playing ...
On Tuesday, Mar 23, 2004, at 19:40 Europe/Warsaw, Roman Turovsky wrote: ... someone else's execrable music (like Hasse's for example). RT ... I fail to recall any of his music RT ... Sugar as an anti-depressant??? Not for me. RT I perfectly understand your point. How you can like something if you don't know it? -- that's obvious. jurek PS Forgive gloomy remark, but the [EMAIL PROTECTED] is dead, isn't it?
Re: Tiorbino composers?
On Friday, Mar 26, 2004, at 08:11 Europe/Warsaw, Howard Posner wrote: ... in the latest Grove if memory serves, that Castaldi's pieces are among the few for tiorbino, which is either a statement that that there are others, or typical academic mealy-mouthed caution. Besard 1617 comes to mind and his NOVA TESTUDO in ensemble pieces. But that print brings more frustrations then pleasure from playing -- needs heavy editing. Besides, the second double course would have to be in octave, otherwise the music does not make sense. For Castaldi, however good it is, I'd advise some editing of the duets as well. Not all dissonances or clashes are so terribly cool or ''proper to the style of lute arrangements''. For some of them there are polyphonic models, so one can compare and taste Castaldi's fluency... But still an exceptional music. In both cases, the Besard and Castaldi, the repertoire consist mostly of arrangements, so if you won't find more, the solution is to follow the example and create your own arrangements. The instrument has a high tessitura and a wide scale (unlike the soprano lute, for example), really ample possibilities, especially in duet with the big cousin... Jerzy
Ballard 1614
Dear All, Does anybody know what is the present publishing/editorial situation of the Robert Ballard, Deuxiesme Livre de Luth, Paris, 1614. The old Pohlmann says the original print is ONLY in St Petersburg (formerly Leningrad). For the next few days I'll have no occasion to check it up in RISM, but perhaps some of you just know. I know there is a 'Complete' Ballard by CNRS (not on my shelves), but is there any facsimile? Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Unquiet Thoughts
...Dowland must be turning in his grave. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy Well, for the first time Dowland must have moaned when he got his First Book of Songes from the printer and saw all the errors. Now he must keep turning in his grave very often seeing all those modern ''e-editions'' done without a iota of criticism for historical sources and simply thinking. It's well known old prints or manuscripts of poliphonic music are full of errors and omissions. The simplest (well, not always!) and basic duty of someone making score of individual parts is to synchronize the voices, not to say about the 'secrets of chromatic art' (Lowinsky). In case of Unquiet Thoughts the 'e-editor' just copied, thoughtlessly, what is in the original print - compare facsimile. All mistakes from before 400 years got digitized - a creative combination of an honest enthusiasm and technology. Last year a student of mine lost a month working on a beautifully edited tablature, downloaded from one of those reach web libraries, until we realized it is so full of mistakes that it is unplayable. The piece was a greasy Pavan by Robert Johnson from Lord Herbert of Cherbury - as it appeared later, but the 'edition' said humbly nothing of its source nor editorial procedures, if any... Let's leave detailes out at the moment. This is just a warning against such a happy creativity. Beside all good intentions, music has also a professional apect, if even restricted to minimum and hidden... Best regards! JZ __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] new/modern music for lute
Dear List, I have a question if there is any listing of a new /modern /contemporary music for 'lute instruments', both renaissance and baroque, solo and ensemble, published, in manuscript or just performed? Some time ago I had a small catalogue-like publication (ed. by T. Satoh?), if I remember well, from 1980's. I cannot find it now, but I think it would be well behind the currant state now. I wonder if there is anything like this available on the web. Regards, Jurek PS: I know of Stefan Lundgren very fine page, and of course the Sauczek's archives. __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: back from Tehran
On 2006-01-24, at 10:57, LGS-Europe wrote: ... from different countries, and frightfully former Eastern Europe-like 'classical' music. Dear David, I beg your pardon, please, but you mean by ''Eastern Europe-like 'classical' music''? Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: OT: politcal correctness (was: back from Tehran)
On 2006-01-25, at 10:29, LGS-Europe wrote: Dear David, I beg your pardon, please, but you mean by ''Eastern Europe-like 'classical' music''? I had no idea I had to be politically correct on this forum. You gave only a partial quote, as I wrote _former_ Eastern Europe-like 'classical' music. What I heard was a choir singing bombastic music glorifying the regime. Propaganda, not music. Composed and conducted by friends of the regime. As might have been composed and performed in any country with a totalitarian regime, like the Eastern-Europe countries in the time of communism. David Dear David, I don't think you have to be politically correct on this forum - but wouldn't be out of place to be historically correct here. Of course and foremost I can speak of Poland, but that may in part apply to other former Easter (or Central) European countries as well. I am not young, alas, but I've never heared of ''singing bombastic music glorifying the regime'' over here, in a way the words ''Louis, Louis...'' were sung for 20 minutes in all Prologues to operas by Lully and his contemporaries - Never!, this is an absurd, and, I am sorry, you must be a victim of some kind of Western propaganda. There was over here a period or style called _socrealizm_, basicly present in literature and arts, perhaps in social relations as well, you can name several popular songs of that kind, may be there are some precedents in art music as well, but any notion it was some sort of our ''classical music'' is a pure fiction. It was definitly a black period in our history (for outside, English language commentators see Norman Davies, Richard M. Watt, or others), but rarely for musicians, indeed. To be not acused of being for to long OT, I'll remind you just few facts from that worst period only relating to early music. In 1957 the Centre for Studies and Documentation of Musical Monumentat has been established by the priest prof. Hieronim Feicht at the Musicology Institute of the Warsaw Uniwersity. The Centre's activity brought to light the local sources of the earliest chant from the middle of the XIth century, the new Krakow and Nowy Sacz monastic sources of Notre Dame style of music, also the so called Pelplin organ tablature (c1620), the bigest in the world music collection of this kind. Church music of Mielczewski (mid-XVIIth c.), Szarzynski (end of XVIIth c.), Gorczycki (contemp. of JSBach) showed new faces of the Polish baroque. All this under the wings of the priest prof. Feicht and the only correct socialist Party - if I may simplify it so. The 1960's were also the happy years of the first Polish wave of the old masters performances preceded by critical (for that time) editions. Let me mention few pioneers of that movement: Tadeusz Ochlewski - the figure behind several editorial enterpises of Polish EM, started already befor the WWII; Miros³aw Perz - musicologist and editor; Kazimierz Piwkowski and his fascinating ensemble «Fistulatores et Tubicinatores Varsovienses», active in 1960's and 70's; Chamber orchestras specializing in EM - Capella Bydgostiensis (from 1962-), Capella Cracoviensis (from 1970-); Choir conductors: E. Kajdasz, St. Krukowski, St. Stuligrosz; You know what was the most popular professional, student and amateur choir repertory at the time? - Gomolka and Waclaw of Szamotuly (IInd half of XVIthe c.), Zielenski (1611), Pekiel (mid-XVIIthe c.), etc. The orchestral/ensemble repertory included music from renaissance organ tablatures, Jarzebski (1627), Szarzynski (before 1700), early Polish classical symphonies, and so on. Of course, all this performances were sort of old fashioned and absolutely unaware of the present historical correctness. But they were the pioneers then. In 1966 we were celebrating 1000 years of the Polish nationality and the EM was shining everywhere, radio and fonography included. Also in 1966 the Ist edition of the festiwal and the confrence ''Musica Antiqua Europae Orientalis'' has been established in Bydgoszcz and is being still organized every one or two years, however its character, then competitive to similar Western enterprises, has changed. Lets leave untouched all later music - the XIXth c. one, Chopin, Moniuszko, Paderewski, Szymanowski, and a legion of others. I'll only mention briefly the Warsaw Autumn, an International Festival of Contemporary Music, established in 1956 (the bad fifties!), held yearly untill now, which florished especially untill the late 1980's. And even as such a big, stately financed enterprise, was never forced to get back at the Party with something like... ''Grande Augusto'', a cantata by JAHasse celebrating the birthday of August the IIIrd, King of Poland and Saxony, among the many similar cantatas. But since the 1989 we have the so called ''democracy'' and are re-learning the market mechanisms. What it is for music nowadays I'll refrain myself from commenting, however - to
[LUTE] Re: Flight Case Update
On 2006-02-23, at 12:08, Benjamin Narvey wrote: My 19c theorbo ... Jurek __ -- Zdjêcia 10x15 tylko 38gr! Zamawiaj odbitki cyfrowe przez Internet. Pobierz swój kod promocyjny tutaj. http://gazeta.empikfoto.pl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Microphone - Amplifier
Dear All, I know this is not a musical question, but nither entirely OT. What system/elements would you suggest for a fairly good amplification system for a lute (or any historical instrument). In another words, what's reasonably best to mic, transfer (wire/transmitter), amplify, c. without much degradation of the sound. What do you think about the systems suggested here?: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/ Best, Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spinacino
Dear Arthur, Nice to get so quick responce from you. I'm teaching in Krakow since 1993 and am there every week, since I live in Warsaw for quite a long time now. My personal sentiments, as a player, were always closer to Reusner, Le Sage, Bronikowski or Rust which I located at the Jagiellonian Libr. a long time ago already. Several other items, including many XVIth C. tablatures, are in one or the other way more famous and ''known'' anyway, so I left diging deeper in them to others (like Micha³ Gondko, for ex.). But I'd love to learn from you more about all of them, as it's probably my duty - to a certain extend - for being ''on spot''. I'll be in Krakow the next Tuesday and will check up things if you have time to list them. If that would take to long, I'll continue the next week or call Sylwia to help me. I'm glad you want to assist me (and us) in completing the list. Best regards, Jerzy __ On 2007-05-13, at 00:20, Arthur Ness wrote: Dear Jerzy, Nice to hear from you on the spot so to speak. How long have you been in Krakow? I am very busy at the moment, but at a later date I'll provide a complete listing of the lute tablatures in Krakow. My list has about 100 (one hundred) prints. I'll comment on specifics and perhaps for the time being snip a bit. Then perhaps some of you already know which of the entries (from that badly catalogued prints in 1970s) contain in the Sammelband/ joint binder the SPINACINO book at the back - probably still kept in secret... [AJNBoth books I and II are in Krakow catalogued under P680(a) and P680(b). The P call number is for Petrucci. The American guitarist Paul Wierbowski held them in his hand. They are also listed as being in Krakow in Stanley Boorman's recent Petrucci catalogue. [AJNI don't have time to make a list now. But my list checked by Paul on site (he looked at the volumes himself) includes: [AJNBakfark, Bassano. Besard. Drusina, FdaM (2x), Fuenllana, Fuhrmann, Gabrieli, M. Galilei, Gerle, Heckel (bound with your Wecker), Jobin, Kapsberger, Kargel, Le Sage, Mylius (?)**, Negri (Gratia Nuove) M. Newsidler, Vallet, and so forth (1 1/2 pages of 4 pages.). The Newsidler volumes are especially important because they are presentation copies from Newsidler to the Duke of Bavaria. **It's there (G 140). Bound with Galilei. __start BB/BJ printed LUTE music N 70 Narvaez de, Luis Los seys libros del Delphin de musica de cifras para taner vihuela. Valladolid, 1538, Diego H. de Cordova N 66: 1538/22 T.VII, p.143 W 510 Wyssenbach (ed.), Rudolf Tabulaturbuch auff die Lutten von mancherley lieplicher italianischer Dantzliedern Zürich, 1550, Rudolf Wyssenbach 1550\25 T.X, p. 310 [AJNW510 has an important manuscript appendix. H 695 2 Wecker, Hans Jakob Lautenbuch vonn mancherley schönen und lieblichen Stucken mit zweyen Lautten zusammen zu schlagen. Basel, 1552, Ludwig Lück 2 lutes: T T.X, p. 197 (unicum) G 440 Gerle, Hans Eyn Newes sehr künstlichs Lautenbuch darinnen etliche Preambel, unnd Welsche Tentz, mit vier stimmen, von den berumbsten Lautenisten Nürnberg, 1552, Hieronymus Formschneider G 1624: 1552\31 T.IV, p. 208 F 900 Fuenllana, Miguel de Libro de musica para vihuela, intitulado Orphenica lyra. En el qual se contienen muchas y diversas obras. Sevilla, 1554, Martin de Montesdoca F 2093; 1554\32: T.IV, p. 98 H 690 Heckel, Wolff Lautten Buoch von mancherley schönen und lieblichen stucken, mit zweyen Lauten zusamen zuschlagen und auch sonst das mehrer theyl allein für sich selbst Straßburg, 1556, Urban Wyss 2 lutes: C H 4934 T.V, p. 83 H 695 1 Heckel, Wolff Lautten Buch von mancherley schönen und lieblichen stucken mit zweyen Lauten zusamen zuschlagen und auch sonst das mehrer theyl allein für sich selbst Straßburg, 1562, Chr. Müller 2 lutes: T H 4935: 1562\24 T.V, p. 83 F 495 Francesco da Milano Intabolatura de Lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino Fiorentino. Ricercate, Madrigali e Canzone franzese. Libro I. Roma, 1566, V. Dorico Lodovico frat. T.XI, 2.728 Unicum. Only a fragment is in France. H 40 Adriaensen (ed.), Emanuel Pratum musicum Longe Amoenissimum Selectissima diversorum idiomatum Carmina 4.5. 6. Vocum Opus novum. Antwerpen, 1584, Pierre Phalese, Rubro Leone 4-6 voci, lute 1584\12 T. p. 44 W 70 Waissel, Matthäus Lautenbuch Darinn von der Tabulatur und Application der Lauten gründlicher und voller Unterricht: Sampt ausserlesenen Deudtschen und Polnischen Tentzen Franckfurt\O, 1592, Andreas Eichornlute W 77 T.X, p. 156 N 138 Negri, Cesare Le gratie d'amore opera nuova, et vaghissima. Milano, 1602, P Pontio, G.B.Piccaglia N 358 T.VII, p.166 K 65 (2) Kapsberger, Johannes Hieronymus Libro primo di villanelle a 1. 2 et 3
[LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties
May be the other contrepartie has been ''(re)constructed'' ;-)) ? Jurek On 2007-11-26, at 18:08, Arthur Ness wrote: Only two Visee contreparties are in Paris sources. There is the wonderful finding tool that Christian Meyer and his associates are making for our use. It is a life-time';s work, and far from complete. But for what it inventories so far (manuscript lute music in France, Switzerland, Germany, the former East Bloc countries) it is very throuough. The indexes (by composer and by title) are available on line. The lists of contents of the individual manuscripts are available in printed volumes. The printed lists also refer one to significant literature and modern editions of the music. See here: http://www.bnu.fr/smt/smt.htm Apparently the pieces you seek have not turned up in the sources so far indexed. ==AJN Boston, Mass. This week's free download from Classical Music Library: Mahler: Symphony No. 5 Go to my web page: http://mysite.verizon.net/arthurjness/ For some free scores, go to: http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepq31c/arthurjnesslutescores/ - Original Message - From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 6:35 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: de Visee - contreparties Taco Walstra [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: On Sunday 25 November 2007 21:58, Mathias Rösel rattled on the keyboard: Dear Collected Wisdom, on their CD with duets by de Visee and Corbetta (Naxos), Eric Bellocq and Massimo Moscardo have recorded two suites by de Visee, totalling 12 movements. Only three of those twelve contreparties can be found in the Saizenay ms. Does someone know whence the others were taken? I presume they are from the two other paris manuscripts with Visee theorbo music. taco The other two Paris mss. probably are Paris BN Vm7 1106 and 6265? Pohlmann lists them as in the LSA microfilm archive. Would someone please have a look if the contreparties are contained in those two mss.? Daniel? Nancy? -- Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan
On 2007-11-30, at 21:31, sterling price wrote: Hi-don't forget the G major suite in the London which requires the 11th course to be stopped. Thats a fun one! Sterling Yes, it is a fun for player or a show for spectators, indeed. But musically I wouldn't cry not having the note on a 'swan' type instrument. One can easly move the bass note (or better both basses in the measure) up and play the Fugue. A few bars later a place similar harmonically has the C sharp on the 6th course, as usually, regardless of logics in the bass voice. On the other hand, I tried the note on my 'Edlinger' and must say all the discussion on temperament not long ago on the Lute-Liste in this case would have to be put into fairy-tales. Jurek ___ - Original Message From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Barocklautenliste Lutelist' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:30:22 AM Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: 13 course rider/swan For a long time I had only the 11-c lute and played everything on it, including anything by Weiss, even Kropfgans, Hagen (Concerto!) and Kohaut. However not without a pain in some places ;-)) As for dilema between 'rider' or 'swan', the one or two notes stopped on the 9th or 10th course, what happens once or twice in a whole Weiss (I don't remember), you cen always play an 8ve higher. I try to remember that the amount of Music in music is the thing which matters. The rest is technology. Jurek _ ___ _ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Piccinini notation query
For me the simple answer is: -- three quick note / one long / three quick note / one long / etc... Unless sombody knows another source with a more precise notation of the piece, there is no authoritative solution to the question. To my knowledge that generation of lutenists had no way to notate triplets, therefore several fragments uncleare rythmically may come from that problem (Kapsperger is full of such mad measures!). In the end I'd feel free to play as I like -- this is simple music with much space for ''ornamentation'', also rythmical. Just personal solution. Best, Jurek ___ On 2007-12-02, at 15:25, Rob wrote: What do you think Piccinini is indicating here? http://www.rmguitar.info/temp.htm Bar 2 and similar: minim.triplet semiquavers.crotchet? Rob MacKillop www.rmguitar.info To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE]
Dear List, No browser can open an address beginning with: ed2k:// like in this: ed2k://|file|hurel.zip|32417611|382 This is taken from page: http://luthlibrairie.free.fr/?Baroque:Fran%26ccedil%3Baise somewhere under: Fac simile disponible en P2P Jurek To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if it's so obvoius? Jurek ___ On 2008-01-31, at 17:25, LGS-Europe wrote: I've already very clearly explained how small theorboes (ie up to low 80s) were tuned (and even given sources for tablature) and generally really can't be bothered to continually repeat myself. However, in case you personally missed it, I'll do it one more time: EITHER nominal A or G tuned but with only the first course tuned an octave down ie highest course is the second at e for an A theorbo or d for a G theorbo; OR with first two courses an octave down but at a higher nominal pitch eg in D like Talbot MS French lesser theorboe for lessons; note that in this case the highest pitched course is the third at e'. Interestingly, the fingered string length of this instrument which belonged to a M. Crevecoeur(s) and made by 'Sellier' (Sellas?) works out at 76cm - squarely in the range that some modern players persist in using for a nominal A or G tuned theorbo with top two courses an octave down! Yes, I've missed it, sorry about that, so thank you for repeating yourself. So 76cm works with first two strings down. I think so too. We agree. Both French and Italians would have come to the same conclusion: first two strings down works on 76cm. Your issue is French theorbe de piece was in d, and some modern players use the same string lengths with two first courses down at a or g. Given a low French pitch (presumably somewhere near 392Hz) and a high Italian (440/466Hz at places), I see not much difference. If it works with the strings and your instrument, it works with your strings and your instrument. There will be a working range of tunings, d and a included. Anyway, nominal tunings are just naming conventions in a transposing world, with a floating pitch on top of that! David MH LGS-Europe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To the benefit of those not interested in a peeing contest but in theories on theorbo stringing, as I am, and not in the happy possesion of a list of historical theorbos stating string length and setup, here's what the guys are talking about (info taken from one of the Pohlmanns lying around here): Atton 1x1, 5x2 = 77,5cm 6x1 = 147cm Ecco 1x1, 5x2 = 75,5cm 6x1 = 161,5cm Hoess 6x2 = 80cm 9x1 = 158cm Kaiser 1x1, 6x2 = 73,1cm 6x1 = 157,6cm Aman 1x1, 5x2 = 80,9cm 5x2 = 150,4cm Koch 7x2 = 82,7cm 7x1 = 167,5cm Langenwalder 6x1 = 76,4cm 8x1 = 141,5cm Attore 1x1, 5x2 = 73cm 3x2 = 156cm Attore 6x2 = 65,7cm 8x1 = 152cm Mascotto 1x3, 4x2 = 74,5cm (original 1x1, 5x2) 6x1 = 158cm The point here is, as I understand it from the discussion so far, not their setup (6+8; 7+7; 8+6) or double versus single strung, but their relative short stopped strings. Granted that some/many/all instruments are modified over the years not all figures above are to be taken at face value. Perhaps some instruments can be argued not to be therobos. Fine, but I'd say there are instruments left we would call theorbos that have a stopped string length of somewhere around 75 to 80cm. And I think enough of these to assume there have been more around in the old days. I'm curious too, how were they tuned according to you, Martyn? David David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html - Sent from Yahoo! #45; a smarter inbox.
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
On 2008-01-31, at 18:20, LGS-Europe wrote: Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if it's so obvoius? I don't. I keep mine (76cm) in a, first two courses down. All gut, 415 to 466 tested. I don't see the point why not. I haven't seen valid and or historical arguments against it. It would work in d too, I'm sure. David I understand you, David, very well, I've also got older living for years with the machine in 'a'. But who have a camparable experience in playing in 'd'? Musicology maybe, but music performance is not a theory class and I'm interested how one manages with the bass notes below the _d_ on the 6th course of the instrument tuned in 'd'. This is more or less one third of the statistical bass notes in an everage part to play (depending of course on period and instrumentation). Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
On 2008-01-31, at 20:42, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: A small price to pay for being able to play a three-note chord over middle C in first position? That's the point and the most promising bit. However the price seems to me not small, indeed, and therefore my quest for someone maybe experienced. Play an archlute! ;-) I do not have one, but I have two 'thorboes' and am thinking of a third one, perhaps a fourth... ;-((? J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time (olim Polish, anyone?)
On 2008-01-31, at 20:15, Bernd Haegemann wrote: Are these markings in historical tabulatures too? I do not remember i saw one. I was thinking of the French ornamentation markings: offhand the only one I can think of without searching through the music is a slanted line separating vertical tab letters, meaning to play them separated. But that are separé signs! They don't mean rolling the chord. B. Sometime they are a real puzzle what they mean - thick texture, quick motion... Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G? Plus some guidelines
Dear Howard, On 2008-01-31, at 18:59, howard posner wrote: On Jan 31, 2008, at 8:56 AM, Jerzy Zak wrote: Hm..., how many of you are playing continuo on a theorbo in 'd', if it's so obvoius? I'm not sure what the it in your question is. Martyn Hodgson in his recent reply stated quite categorically there are two correct options (and I think he'll not repet it agan): EITHER nominal A or G tuned but with only the first course tuned an octave down ie highest course is the second at e for an A theorbo or d for a G theorbo; OR with first two courses an octave down but at a higher nominal pitch eg in D like Talbot MS French lesser theorboe for lessons; note that in this case the highest pitched course is the third at e'. I have my opinion on it, but I may be wrong as living on the province of the western culture, so I asked if the instrument tuned in D is in on a par with the one in A? Do you know it from calculations or experience? When Ensemble Chanterelle consisted of Sally Sanford, Cathy Liddell and Kevin Mason, their basic setup was voice, theorbo in A and theorbo in D. That was a while ago. Linda Sayce says on her web site that she plays a lot of continuo on a 76cm theorbo in D. After a second lecture in fact I've found maybe less then 1% of text devoted to the 'French lesser theorboe' on the Linda's page: http://www.theorbo.com/Theorbo/Theorbo.htm Only here: http://www.theorbo.com/Instruments/Monsieur.htm she says: ...I find this instrument is also surprisingly useful for continuo, especially for chamber works and pieces where the bass line is often simply too high for the A-tuned instrument. but... To the best of my knowledge there is no evidence whatsoever for using a D theorbo for continuo, though I find it hard to believe that if the instrument was around, the professionals at least would not have used it for continuo! I beleve her! It is extremely tempting, but what about the register arround and below of the 6th course of the D theorbo? You say: Answer 2: If you have eight fingerboard strings, you're chromatic down to B-flat, so the only major problems are the low G#,F# and Eb. That's cleare, but these are tricks! You have to learn them like solo fragments and they'll hardly pass as naturally as anything above 'd'. Try it on, say, Corelli or Couperin (middle to high baroque). A small price to pay for being able to play a three-note chord over middle C in first position? That's the point and the most promising bit. However the price seems to me not small, indeed, and therefore my quest for someone maybe experienced. Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] a liste-machine
Strange, I'm not receiving messages I am sending to the Liste - Am I doing something wrog? Jurek To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a liste-machine
On 2008-02-01, at 11:26, Ron Fletcher wrote: Hi Jerzy, Your message has arrived on the list, so it should work in reverse. Check your Junk-Mail folder. List messages to you could be treated as spam. You may need to re-set your spam-filter to allow these messages to reach your Inbox. Ron (UK) and from Roman: The ONLY solution is to get a GMAIL account, and have your Outlook access it on POP. Google's spamfilters are really quite good. RT Thanks for replys. I'm using Mail on a mac and the gmail account. I'm receiving (hopefully) everything from the Lute-Liste and other correspondance. I am ONLY not receiving my own messages to the Liste. I do not use any spam-filter and the junk mail box on my Mail is empty. Google works perfectly for me - no spam, no lost messages (except for my own List posts), but I tred to slightly change settings on it. In fact I've found my contributions to the Liste there, somewhere deep into the Inbox - Threads... Why this is not resent to me?? Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Dear Stewart and Jaroslaw, In a way you are both right advocating legitimate interpretations, theoretically opposite. But they overlap and that common region is in much degree subjective, depending on context, historicall or personal styles, even some national propensities (compare the Italian and French battles over the style of composition or performance in the XVIIth C.). The problem is that the discussion started from a very bad exemple which nither represent a dance form (in case of the web site 'as if Polish') but a free composition, nor any particular style of playing. Actually, I'd have to get massively drunken in order to play for over ten years the same notorious Finale 'by Dlugoraj' and not much else. The player seems much more imaginative in self promoting (as the entire contents of the page testifies!) then musical interpretation. Then, I think, P O'Dette and H Smith, or R Lislevand, or even J Bream, are safer for polemics however contrasting are their interpretations. The discussion can be exciting, even limited to verbal descriptions (for the lack of sound, the soul of music) and can tell perhaps more of ourselves and our preferences, then the subject itself, so elusive. So forgive I shortened the Subject and cut off the useless association. Jurek __ On 2008-02-03, at 17:03, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Jaroslav, Thank you very much for these observations, which you have presumably taken from Robert Donington, _The Interpretation of Early Music_ (London: Faber Faber, new version reprinted 1975), p. 425. The first passage you quote, which Donington took from Thomas Mace, p. 147, is incomplete. The full text given by Donington is: Many Drudge, and take much Pains to Play their Lessons very Perfectly, (as they call It (that is, Fast) which when they can do, you will perceive Little Life, or Spirit in Them, meerly for want of the Knowledge of This last Thing, I now mention, viz. They do not labour to find out the Humour, Life, or Spirit of their Lessons. Here Mace is arguing for music to be played expressively, to capture the mood of a composition. He says that many players think you just have to get the notes right and play the piece up to speed, the faster the better. This does not really counter what I have been saying about lutenists playing out of time. You would have done better to look seven pages further on (p. 432), where you will find another passage taken from Mace (p. 81): [Beginners must learn strict time; but] when we come to be Masters, so that we can command all manner of Time, at our own Pleasures; we Then take Liberty, (and very often, for Humour [i.e. mood, not wit], and good Adornment-sake, in certain Places), to Break Time; sometimes Faster, and sometimes Slower, as we perceive, the Nature of the Thing Requires. In my earlier e-mail, I quoted the passage on p. 124 of _Musick's Monument_: ... you cannot fail to know my Mistress's Humour, provided you keep True Time, which you must be extreamly careful to do, in All Lessons: For Time is the One half of Musick. At first sight, Mace seems to be contradicting himself with these three passages, yet I believe he is spot on. I think he means that he wants music to be played in time, not with sloppy rubato all over the place for its own sake, but neither does he want it to be played mechanically with no regard for the mood of the piece. To capture the essential character of a piece of music requires some freedom of interpretation, but done subtly, and in such a way that the music appears to keep good time. I would suggest that Paul O'Dette does precisely that. He can play a piece of dance music so that one's foot taps in sympathy, but he doesn't play mechanically. There may be a little give and take to capture the spirit of a piece, perhaps a breath between sections, without him resorting to the sort of arrhythmic playing I so dislike. -o-O-o- As with Mace, you would have done better to choose a quotation seven pages on for Frescobaldi, where Donington gives the following (p. 432): First, this kind of playing must not be subject to the beat, as we see done in modern Madrigals, which, in spite of their difficulties, are made easier by means of the beat, taking it now slowly, now quickly, and even held in the air, to match the expressive effects, or the sense of the words. In this passage, and in the one you quoted, Frescobaldi is talking specifically about the performance of his toccatas for keyboard, and clearly wants a very free performance. I would suggest that some of the early lute ricercars might be approached in a similar way. If there is any irregularity in the rhythm, it has to be for a purpose though, not just for its own sake. The meaning of the word ricercar can give us a clue - searching out, research, discovery, exploration - it is as if the performer is trying to
[LUTE] Re: Theorbo in G/A? Plus some guidelines
Martyn, All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re- entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in octaves, in G or A? From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless (?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well. Someone said that already. Gratefull for comments, Jurek __ On 2008-02-03, at 10:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Thanks for this; I'd be grateful for a fuller response to cover all the points in my previous email to you. Nevertheless I'll respond to this one below: INFORMATION I now see from your mention of my guitar stringing email that you seem to equate 'information' solely with figures whereas I also include other things such as tunings, examples of solo music, etc which you do not count as information - we'll bear this in mind. BOB SPENCER'S LYNDA SAYCE'S PAPERS In fact, Bob Spencer gave examples of large double reentrant theorbos in A and G (with string lengths around 89 and 91cm - the same ones I gave details earlier). He also cites Mace on tuning of single and double theorbos in G and A and says that large theorbos need the two highest courses down the octave and not just the first (ie smaller theorbos just had the first course on actave down p. 412). Similarly, Lynda Sayce does in fact provide much information including sizes of some large extant theorbos. TALBOT MS Talbot fortunately gives more than the minimum number of dimensions and it is quite possible to recreate the instrument based on what he gives at a string length of between 88/91cm (as Michael Prynne and later others) without making unecessary assumptions as David did (I'm told it's mostly to do with measurements of body to body/neck joint or to the end of the tongue and not by excluding the rose diameter). David doesn't mention reentrant tuning type (Talbot gives double reentrant in A for his measured instrument) and I would surprised if Lynda Sayce doesn't tune her 78cm English theorbo as single reentrant - but you'll need to ask her. Incidentally, 78cm seems an ideal size for a single reentrant theorbo - mine is 76cm which I now feel is marginally too small. EVIDENCE In short, the evidence I gave still stands and, little as it is, is indeed overwhelming (100%). I still await David Tayler's or your own evidence that small theorboes (say 75 to 82cm) were generally tuned as double reentrant. PITCH I don't quite understand your last point on pitch but if you are equating maximum acceptable breaking stress of solo and continuo instruments, I refer you to my recent email to Rob McKillop ... it contains figures too. WHEN SINGLE OR DOUBLE REENTRANT? Whilst no one denies that it is physically possible to string a small theorbo in A or G as double reentrant (especially using modern overwound strings), the question I, at least, am trying to address is what would have been expected historically. Early sources, when bothering to mention the matter at all (eg Piccini, Mace - cited earlier), stress that smaller instruments are single reentrant and that double reentrant is only employed when the breaking stress of the highest pitched string (in this case the second course) is approached. I can, of course, well understand that if you play a small theorbo in an unlikely historical stringing (ie A or G double reentrant) you'll feel an almost Pavlovian obligation to defend your decision but surely you should be doing this on this basis of modern convenience and personal preference and not on the unsupportable position that it's somehow following historic models. MH howard posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn Hodgson wrote: In subsequent messages I gave more information (you must have missed it): - how such small instruments were strung (just top course an octave down or at a much higher nominal pitch eg D), - early written evidence of theorbo sizes, - examples of solo music for such instruments - Again, there was no information; just your own conclusion that smaller theorbos were not tuned double reentrant. You may be confusing these posts (I've just reread them) with your post about guitar stringing, which actually contained information. and gave Lynda Sayce's website and Bob Spencer's article as providing more information. You may say that I only refer to these articles because they support the position on theorbo sizes which I take - which it is true they do - But they don't. Spencer doesn't correlate single-reentrant stringing
[LUTE] Re: Pittoni's theorbo?
with the continuo Pittoni calls for (organo or clavicembalo) there is no real sense of any strange harmonic inversion. The bar on page 43 also illustrates another problem: if one accepts an octave on the 2nd, where does it all end? - since here the scalic passage, both ascending and descending, crosses all three top courses: there has to be a discontinuity somewhere; wether it be between the 2nd and 3rd or 1st and 2nd. Note also that at the beginning of this bar he completes the previous ascending phrase on the same course (3rd at fret 7) and then plays the same note on course 2 (fret1) to start the next short phrase. This, I suggest, shows he made a concious choice to start the next phrase at the lower octave - in short double reentrant. Personally, I rather like the octave leap at the end of the bar MH Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Martyn, All this is very persuasive, but what about the story of a double re- entrant instrument with double strings and the second course in octaves, in G or A? From my sketchy calculations it appeares it must be an instrument of about 74 cm (stopped), considering on one side the breaking point of the high octave of the second (the _e'_) and the musical quality of the 6th (or 7th) course. As a theorbo it's a toy instrument, useless (?), but in therms of say a baroque d-m lute, with which it shares the tessitura, it is a huge one. In this case such a theorbo would have the 5th and the 6th (+ the 7th?) in octaves as well. Someone said that already. Gratefull for comments, Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence
In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical practice. Very interesting, thanks, Rob. Jurek ___ On 2008-02-05, at 10:55, Rob Lute wrote: I had a very pleasant evening on Saturday with my harpsichord- making friend, Grant O'Brien, and his friends, including a short recital on one of his harpsichords by Lucy Carolan, a first-rate player. Grant and I got to talking about lute and harpsichord making in Italy, and he revealed a couple of interesting points: 1. all Italian harpsichords had fir soundboards, not spruce, as found north of the Alps. Did I know of any fir-soundboarded lutes? Well, I didn't. Can anyone contribute something here? 2. the tiorbino: here is a fascinating article from Grant's website, discussing a keyboard instrument called the tiorbino, apparently gut-strung, like the lautenclavier: http://www.claviantica.com/Publications_files/The_Tiorbino/ The_tiorbino.htm - I love the part where a buyer asks the maker to build another one if the first one goes out of tune! A great idea, albeit somewhat expensive... Although these are keyboard topics, I'm sure they will be of interest to some here. Rob MacKillop To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
On 2008-02-05, at 17:33, LGS-Europe wrote: Recorder and viol players are often shocked at the slowness of speeds requested by lutenists for broken consort music (Morley 1599 et al), and a compromise has to be reached. One of the top lute players once confessed to me why he is no longer playing with his broken ensemble (we were talkng about the English repertoire), becouse the other parts, beside of the lute, are so boring, mostly in very long notes, that nobody really wants to play it with him. It is undertandable then, every flute or viola player tends to play all the whole and half notes faster. Of course hard to finde a compromise. Easy-dificult music and only one has fun. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Thank you Jean-Marie, After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising new evidence
On 2008-02-05, at 14:21, tiorba wrote: In fact my first performance of Castaldi's Capricci (in the same programma with Pittoni) was with the tiorbino part played on harpsichord - as it now appeares not to far from historical practice. Very interesting, thanks, Rob. Jurek It's indeed very far! Like playing a vocal aria with the vox humana of an organ, or thinking about sun and sea playing with unda maris... It's really clear what is a tiorbino for Castaldi. Not only from the picture, but also from the introduction, unfortunately lacking in the Minkoff reprint... Diego Diego, Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as breathing. Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it. Of course I would do better using some other instrument strung in gut, say another lute, harp or ...a keyboard instrument called tiorbino, providing I'd know of it. But my buddy played ordinary (oh, how ordinary) italian cembalo, so what? But I'll tell you more, there is a biger scandal approaching or already appeared - Kenneth Gilbert's keyboard edition of the lute and theorbo music of Kapsperger... I can imagine a battle on this liste like the one with Sting. ¡Ay, caramba! Jurek PS: but the introduction to Castaldi I'd love to know, of course! _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
Jarek, On 2008-02-05, at 20:33, Jarosław Lipski wrote: Jurek, It got complicated a little bit, but in fact is very simple. If you start taping your foot (I don't advice taping foot at all, but one can do it virtually) when playing Pavan, don't stop it when the Galliard comes, and everything will be fine :) The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. I played with the dancers several times and generally they don't like fast tempos of the Galliard for the simple reason they have many complicated steps (the steps shown on American video are very basic). I absolutely agree with Steward that Galliard was slowing down with time passing because of more and more complicated steps. The same with pavan, the same with almain/allemande, with sarabande, etc. If we presume that in XVI c. Italy it was a lively dance, as well as the pavan not so slow, too. probably in the end of Dowland's life it was not. No wonder that when Mace was writing about Galliard, everybody was so bored already with Galliards and inventing new attractive steps in general. So probably this is why he describes it as a slow, grave and sober dance. In his time both the pavan and the galliard were for old fogies. In my feeling the Dowland pavans and galliard situates somwhere between the tipical XVIth c. Italian lively prototypes and Mace, but were already in a stage of decadence. But first of all Dowland is not for dancing - try to convince someone to dance to his Lacrime Pavan. Of course under the academic roof you can do it, but would you like to take part in that experiment? Jaroslaw -Original Message- From: Jerzy Zak [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 6:31 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Playing in time Thank you Jean-Marie, After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Playing in time
I couldn't quickly find a fitting example of a XVIth c. pair pavan- galliard, but I have at hand Terzi's 1st book of tab. and their on p. 115-117: Ballo Tedesco… / Il Saltarello del prescrito ballo. They are closly related thematically and it immadiately appeares that one bar/ measure of the ballo equals to two bars/measure of the saltarello in performance - that is providing a ballo is a piece of music in a moderate speed and a saltarello is brisk. In that way all the structural elements, the melody and 'harmony' runs in the saltarello twice as fast as in ballo, the fraze is twice shoter, etc. But if you'd write both dances on paper in a score way, one under the other, you could see that in musical contents one printed bar equals one printed bar. That may give a faulty impression that it might be performed bar to bar in terms of time and speed. Funny experiment. But still I think that for a sheer instrumental performance that strict proportion might be compromised accordingly. Jurek On 2008-02-05, at 21:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: There is no such obvious equivalence really, but keep in mind the equivalence of one breve with two beats (Pavan) and one breve with three beats (Galliard). The augmentation of the number of notes to a beat - three for two - gives the feeling of an acceleration sufficient to differentiate the two dances. At least that's how I usually find my way around in this particular matter and it works fine, even with dancers... Hope it helps ! All the best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 21:: === The same is Jean-Marie reminding and everybody agree to it. The problem appeares which time values of each dance equals. That is in what containes one galliarde beat and one pavane beat. After reading you and looking again to the Arthur's exemples, I should have written: 1 galliard measure (one beat) = 1/2 of a pavan measure (one beat) and in an original mensural notation would be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one beat to a measure) = 1 whole note of a pavan (one beat or half of the measure) Is it correct? Jurek __ 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). On 2008-02-05, at 17:49, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: Exactly Jerzy. I think that's what theoreticians call tactus inequalis : 1 tactus in a binary measure (= normally a half measure in modern transcriptions ) is equivalent to 1 tactus in triple time ( one measure in modern transcrition). In other words if you beat time with a regular tactus in duple time - hand touching down for each breve duration, as you see in some paintings with singers - , not considering the modern concept of bar, as there were no bars then as you know, and if this tactus remains the same for a triple time measure, it means you keep the same tactus all the time with a clear proportion, so it's quite easy to shift from duple time to triple and back, if necessary. Usually a breve, with two demi- breves, in duple time becomes a breve in triple with three semi- breves to it. Try it and you'll see it works almost all the time ! It works all the time for Pavan-Galliard proportion. So, take care, you have to consider what speed your triple time breve will be like to choose a correct tempo for the Pavan, [and be able to keep it ;-)]... Best, Jean-Marie === 05-02-2008 17:27:26 === On 2008-02-05, at 15:15, Arthur Ness wrote: http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html Thank you, Arthur, Then it is 1 galliard measure = 1/4 of a pavan measure. In mensural notation (not modern, often changing values) it might be: 3 half notes of a galliard (one measure) = 1 half note in a pavan (1/4 of a measure). Forgive improper terminology, if that's important. In art music, that is for playing or listening, those proportions loose sense of course. However there are Lute-Listers better then me in Renaissance theory. Jurek __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino, by Castaldi
Tremendous thanks for this, Diego. Transcibing such in an old and foreign language text from an original would be a nightmare for me. Jurek _ On 2008-02-05, at 21:56, Diego Cantalupi wrote: That's the (difficult) text. I'll try to upload he page later ALLA NOBILE, SPLENDIDA E VIRTUOSA GIOVENTU' GENOVESE Il Liuto Re degli stromenti bontà del suo essere, conforme a la natura de vecchi, è ritroso e dificile, stracco di soffrire lo strapazzo barbieresco che ne fa la turba errante, Havendo dal Arciduchessa Tiorba, che l'altro giorno per non mancar d'herede egli prese per moglie havuto un figliuoletto vago, e piacevole, che più al Altezza de la Madre che a la Maiestà del genitore rassomigliandosi, Tiorbino fù chiamato, visto l'aplauso universale che in omni genere musicorum si dava a la Donna al putto, come lieto di una tal successione, così mezzo disperato per non trovar più fra quei che si lambiccano in suo servitio, chi modernamente lo contenti, del suo caro Piccinino, et altri pochi in poi, s'è risoluto d'inviarsi a la volta degli Antipodi, onde hà fatto prima solenne rinuntia, de la Liutesca corona reale che tiene, e d'ogni sua pretensione a la Regina moglie, al figliuolo, accortosi che l'una, e l'altro, quando stiano accoppiati insieme, fanno ottimo concerto, e perfettamente, e con poco fatica danno quella sodisfattione a tutto il mondo, che a sua Maestà non è mai bastato l'animo di fare se non in processo di lunghissimo tempo. Hora che ciò ch'io dico sia vero eccone a le SS. VV. virtuosissime un po' d'abbozzo in questa miei capricci li quali piu intel ligibile ch'io habbia potuto, per non haver io giamai più fatto tal mestiero, sono stati intagliati in rame da me così a la grossa per diversion di quella dolorosa noia, che continoamente mi dà l'inossata palla, che nel mezzo del piè sinistro mi lasciò per favorirmi tornato da Roma in patria, ott'anni sono una leggiadra e gentii Pistoletta galante, questa mostra dico di fantasticarie tiorbesche dedico, dono, e consacro a le SS. VV. come a persone nobili, Splendide, e che più d'ogn'altra natione di virtù si dilettano; Suplicandole ad accettar voluntieri, e gradire questo mio picciol dono, qual egli si sia, per segno del obligo grande, immortale ch'io tengo a le carezze fattemi in coteste parti mentr'io ci dimorai da le generosità loro, et insieme il buono animo mio, che sarà prontissimo quand'io m'accorga che queste non gli dispiacciano, di porgere a la giornata con altre gentilezze simili a le nobilità de le SS. VV. virtuosissimo trattenimento. Così N.S. Iddio le concede il colmo d'ogni felicità, come io lo desidero con ogni maggior affetto. Di Modena XV Lulio 1622 De Le Nobili Splendide, e Virtuosissime SS. VV. Umilissimo Devotissiomo Servitore, Bellerofonte Castaldi To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Tiorbino - surprising no evidence
Dear Diego, On 2008-02-05, at 21:51, Diego Cantalupi wrote: Changing instrumentation in music of the time is as natural as breathing. Almost all title pages of printed music testify to it. Not so easy... it's very difficult, if not impossible, to find any music for theorbo in mensural notation written in the same times. Perhaps not theorbo and not in Italy, but from France we have Perrine and especially d'Anglebert imaginatively transcribing lute music, without any prejudice, despite octaves on the lute, etc. I'm sure there's a reason for this. Also I've never seen a printed page testifying it on any lute and theorbo music book. In a way the Cazzati print I mentioned yesterday can be a trace. Beside, again on a French soil, a book by Gallot says you can play it on other instruments, and of course de Visée, Dieupart (1667-1740), who else...? The tablature was an awful barrier, therefor my theory many Italian lutenists (including tiorbists) said addio! to that type of notation. Of course, if you play a violin part with a cornetto or viceversa, there are no problems! But playing a theorbo part (with all the problems coming from unisons, in particoular in Castaldi music) it's far from being natural. Of course it works. It works a little better on double harp, since it can plays unisons... That reminds me my examples to studens showing an honest and complete transcription (including dublings) of some 'matured' baroque guitar piece, say by Corbetta or Murcia, and how imposible it is, or on the other hand how groundless it is in order to understand the basically simple texture. You can hear my experiment here (with some birds), selecting track 3. You can transcribe it for two organs, also hammond organs, it will work, but it won't be natural. Also Kenneth Gilbert's edition of HK is very unnatural: of course very easy to do, but since I'm quite sure he knows some counterpoint, it would have benn better a sort of voices reconstructions... I haven't seen it, but of course he shoud impersonate himself with someone like Frescobaldi or Rossi. But that's a persistent editorial problem - what to give to paper, and what to forgive to fingers. Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Krakow SAM 2008
Dear Liste, Although late, I’d like to let you know of the next – 10-th Summer Music Academy Krakow (Poland) 2008 http://www.amuz.krakow.pl/en/?web=linki Below there are esential info from the Academy’s web page concerning the cources. To that I might add, that the Jagiellonian Library in Krakow egreed to organize a special visite of interested participants to their collection of old music prints and manuscripts, commonly known as the ‘Berlin Collection’. Some of you know the contents of it - let me just mention the famous Spinacino 1507 print as the earlist, and the Rust MS from ca. 1760’s, as probably the latest. Here follow extracted fragments, but you are invited to see the original web page given above. Jurek (Jerzy Zak) Ladies and Gentlemen, Summer Music Academy will celebrate its first jubilee. It is with pleasure that we can state that during ten years of its existence it became one of the most significant summer cultural events, and the participants arriving from all over the world confirm its international renown. The 10th Summer Music Academy coincides with the 120th anniversary of the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland. We would like to emphasize the unique character of this edition not only by the presence of great masters and their performances, but we want to present our participants during “The Youth: Now” concert series. We wait for you in Kraków, a city which provides the most beautiful framework for all artistic meetings. Prof. Andrzej Pikul - Artistic Director THE SCHEDULE OF COURSES (extracted only ‘early music’, in calendar order): … Jerzy ZAK - Lute, August 21 - 24 Teresa KAMINSKA - Baroque cello, August 27 - 30 Malgorzata WOJCIECHOWSKA - Flute traverso, August 27 - 30 Marcin ZALEWSKI - Viola da gamba, August 27 - 30 Elzbieta STEFANSKA – Harpsichord, August 28 - 30 … INFORMATIONS (extracted): – The 10-th SAM Kraków 2008 will take place between August 20-30, 2008 at the Academy of Music in Kraków, Poland. – Each course will last 4 days minimum. The actual duration of the course shall depend on the number of enrolled students. The participants shall be notified by 10 July 2008. – The concerts of the best performers among the participants of the courses will be held in the Florianka Recital Hall. APPLICATIONS, RESERVATIONS AND FEES – by 15 June 2008, via letter, fax or e-mail – a legibly filled Application Form, enclosing a confirmation of payment of the Registration Fee for foreign persons – 30,00 EUR… – Course fees for foreign applicants: 300 EUR … OFFICE: Joanna Czech tel. + 48 12 422 44 00 tel. + 48 12 422 04 55 ext. 144 fax. + 48 12 422 44 55 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Academy of Music in Krakow 43, Sw. Tomasza Street 31-027 Krakow Poland CALENDAR/CONCERTS (extracted): 20 August, 7 p.m. Ceremonial opening… … 22 August, 7 p.m. Lute recital: Jerzy Zak … 24, 25 August, 7 p.m. Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now” … 27 August, midday (12 p.m.) Lecture on baroque dances, with live performance. Conducted by Prof. Elżbieta Stefańska, Romana Maciuk-Agnel and Dariusz Brojek (dances) 27 August, 3 p.m. Chamber Hall, 43, Sw. Tomasza St. Baroque dances course for all the interested participants of the SAM 27 August, 7 p.m. Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now” … 29, 30 August, 7 p.m. Participants’ concert series “The Youth: Now” 30 August, 7 p.m. Ceremonial closing… To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Roman's email
Roman, Aren't there some problems with your email account? jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Weyrauch
But he is a regular guitarist, with all its goods and bads… Probably thinks we are silly fools ;-)) But the video is OK, if you like anything played efficiently. J ___ On 2008-09-29, at 14:35, Stephan Olbertz wrote: Does anyone know what this exactly is? http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=u0dHmUORzEk I didn't know that we have a composition by Johann Christian Weyrauch. Meyer doesn't list anything. Hm... Regards, Stephan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute
Weiss and Logy on archlute! Well, of course, everything is explanable, I can understand any individual approach. In the end music as an art or entertainment is 'free'. Also history is a very plastic phenomenon, what endless discussions at least on this list only testify. But why there is such a bias against a baroque lute? We have more or less 150 years of written heritage of music for the renaissance tuning and another 150 years of survived music for the baroque (d-minor) tuning, with some 50 years of overlap in that aspect. Someone has stated that Silvius Leopold Weiss, with his over 1000 recognized single compositions, is the richest represented composer of all lute music. I'm saying nothing about quality and am not comparing Dalza with Falckenhagen becouse it's pointless - I'm astonished about present or modern statistics. Who started, for exemple, his marriage with lute with Weiss and not with Francesco? I know, not many, so why such a trend in pedagogy? One can buy Weiss or Logi on an archlute if it's for fun or pleasure. Equally well one can try Pulenc on theorbo or Kapsperger on modern harp, or Gershwin on balalaika - if the artistic/musical efect is really moving - including single strings on some hybrid lutes called ...anyhow. I have absolutely nothing against it, even long for any real artistic show with a plucker on stage (what unfortunately doesn't happen to often, I'm afraid). But why the real baroque lute is such a black sheep, why such a distaste, reluctance or even aversion? Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning for a continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used? Here I see most plainly how the history is selectively used, not excluding HIP. Quite intriguing, isn't it? Jurek PS: but really nothing against archlute ;-)) or any other type of lute... just curiosity. _ On 2008-10-23, at 20:43, Mathias Rösel wrote: Are Vidar Boye Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: convenient... This way all - really nearly the ALL! - the baroque solo-continuo stuff is playable by an archlute! Yepp, that's true. I tried Logy and Weiss grand staff transcriptions with the archlute and found them quite feasable. I think I read somewhere that there actually is a courante by Logy in an 18th century archlute version. In the much debated letter where Weiss describes his continuo lute, he also claims that neither archlute nor theorbo is any good for galanterie pieces. Of course, he was wrong... :-) Well, yes, of course ;) A bitmore serious, I'd quote in full that the giraffes, which differ from each other, sound coarse and rude, when you come close, because they were played with nails. I do not play Weiss wi-with na-na-nails, uff c-course. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute
On 2008-10-24, at 03:49, Roman Turovsky wrote: From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] doesn't happen to often, I'm afraid). But why the real baroque lute is such a black sheep, why such a distaste, reluctance or even aversion? Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning for a continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used? I am for one emphatically against such usage, even though I occasionally do that against my principles, in front of people. If a baroque lute is audible in an instrumental ensemble- it is likely because it either played a sour note or was late on the entry. Who then played the Reusner music (MS additions to his printed music), Radolt (compare recent CD), Kühnel, Lauffensteiner, Falckenhagen, Hagen, Baron, Meusel, Martino, Weiss, Kropfgans, Sollnitz, Schaffrath, Kohaut, Haydn, Seckendorf, Daube, Rust... For whom were the present Augsburg and Bruxelles collections. Who took pain to assemble the Schweidnitz MS I Trastulli D’Apollo in suavi Concerti and several others... And do not forget about the 'Bach 1025' case. I do like accompanying a singer though. RT Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer, J.H. Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind, J Kremberg, Ph.H. Erlebach, G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze (Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east, survived or not. Here I see most plainly how the history is selectively used, not excluding HIP. Quite intriguing, isn't it? Jurek Jurek _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute
Mathias, My post was only techincally glued to your reply, I know you are into the baroque lute. On 2008-10-24, at 12:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One can buy Weiss or Logi on an archlute if it's for fun or pleasure. Equally well one can try Pulenc on theorbo or Kapsperger on modern harp, or Gershwin on balalaika That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Italian lutenists like Zamboni or dalla Casa were contemporaneous to Weiss and Logy, Weiss had been to Rome for quite a while and had started his carreer there. I simply wanted to know to what extend music by Logy or Weiss in tablatures for D minor tuning is specific to that tuning But I've never heared of anybody trying, say, Gianoncelli (1650) on d- m lute, despite Julien Blovin, the famous French lute teacher activ in Italy, or Zamboni, however he lived almost contemporary to the so called Polinski's MS with an inscribtion Venetijs. 7. 7br. 1712. Quite feasible, isn't it? - but I've never heared of this kind of experiments (perhaps of myself ;-)) But why the real baroque lute is such a black sheep Would you agree with me, then, that there are at least four distinct black sheep? * 11c French * 12c double headed (much of the repertoire French, again) * 13c bass rider * 13c swan neck Not realy much distinct, concidering the tuning. Why the few maniacs only use baroque lute tuning for a continuo, in the age the instrument was born and used? Not sure if I got your point right, but didn't Benjamin Narvey recently make a strong case in favour of HIP continuo playing in D minor tuning. Besides that, there still are the Fundamenta der Lautenmusique, an 18th century=A0tutor for continuo playing in D minor tuning. Benjamin Nervey is one of the few noble individuals of whom I was thinking. And the Fundamenta, plus Perrine print, the Wienna MS and others makes me thinking that in fact there is more real pedagogical material - that is hard proof from the period - for continuo practice on the d-m tuning, then on other lutes -)) Paradox? Jurek Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute
Matthias, On 2008-10-24, at 12:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do like accompanying a singer though. RT Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer, J.H. Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind, J Kremberg, Ph.H. Erlebach, G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze (Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east, survived or not. Some of the best baroque lied composers, indeed, but I cannot see their connection to the lute (except for Jakob Kremberg, of course, whom I shouldn't see among the first of that order, though). Mathias The connection is the simplest posiible - these are continuo songs, most probably for home use, small audience, private entertainment, like solo lute music of the period, from Reusner to Hagen. Do all the people then had two instruments at home, and the other one for continuo was obligatory an archlute or big theorbo??? Nonsense! Jurek To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute
Roman, On 2008-10-24, at 14:50, Roman Turovsky wrote: Jurek, There is considerable difference of how music is heard by its participants vs. how it is heard by listeners. That's the paradox. We today removed this music from it's original milieu and put it on the modern concert platform, on which it most often creates consternation or at least sonic problems. Of course, the smaller the venue the better. My perspicacity tells that all this ensemble music was clearly intended to be heard just by the participants, with or without very few guests. Moving this music into our typical venues renders the lute inaudible. You mean, typical _modern_ venue, I understand. Salvation is in phonography perhaps, as the Radolt CD prompts. One of course could bring in causa Lutz Kirchhoff's efforts, but his [athletic] approach to the lute in ensemble circumstances is not a pretty listen. Lutz and several of us are permanently trying to find their own solution to the problem, which today is probably unsovable in 100%. But I havn't heared any complains when a trio of a singer, lute and gamba are glorifying the Dowland's name. To be honest, to my ears the lute is almost inaudible in such setting, and discussions about poliphony of it's part or consecutive fifths is aimless. Very often even without gamba. J __ RT - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute Matthias, On 2008-10-24, at 12:17, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do like accompanying a singer though. RT Here you are, though you don't like it: H Albert, G Voigtländer, J.H. Schein, H. Schütz, Ch Bernhard, A. Krieger, J. Rist, T Selle, A Hammerschmidt, J Nauwach, C Ch Dedekind, J Kremberg, Ph.H. Erlebach, G.Ph. Telemann, J.V. Görner, J.A. Hasse, J.S. Scholze (Sperontes),. not to mention all the less known further east, survived or not. Some of the best baroque lied composers, indeed, but I cannot see their connection to the lute (except for Jakob Kremberg, of course, whom I shouldn't see among the first of that order, though). Mathias The connection is the simplest posiible - these are continuo songs, most probably for home use, small audience, private entertainment, like solo lute music of the period, from Reusner to Hagen. Do all the people then had two instruments at home, and the other one for continuo was obligatory an archlute or big theorbo??? Nonsense! Jurek To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Weiss, Logy and archlute
But I havn't heared any complains when a trio of a singer, lute and gamba are glorifying the Dowland's name. To be honest, to my ears the lute is almost inaudible in such setting, and discussions about poliphony of it's part or consecutive fifths is aimless. Very often even without gamba. In fact. However, tomorrow I have to do a pair of cuts from Silva Rerum with the melody given to the gamba. Hopefully I'll hear myself. I'll be amplified too. RT Do you mean the MS at the Krakow BJ 10002 (also numnered 127/56) of so many Ukrainian connection? J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
Obviously, it's good to know about the two or three Losy's pieces and a couple of Reusner's one transfered to theorbo. But I hope you are not going to say the d-m lute, after this discovery, is practically useless and everything can be reintabulated to an archlute now - ? If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. So players nowadays are looking for a repertire, that's quite natural. But I guess historical archlute players were not that badly looking for d-m lute music in order to convert it to their tuning, but played whatever was arround, songs, dances, Corelli hits or their own inventions, all mostly - who knows - without the help of paper... yes, by heart... or straight from its music notation, if I can cite from Weiss. One of my students, following some historical sources and played one of the Corelli Sonatas on the d-m lute, with a noticable pleasure and, I'd say, success. Why this direction is not so willingly followed? J _ On 2008-10-24, at 17:08, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: And here is the mail where our Mathias Rösel mentions a couple of theorbo/archlute pieces by Reusner. Which pieces are you refering to, Mathias? Are -- Forwarded message -- Date: 12 Oct 2005 07:07 GMT From: Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: baroque Lutelist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Reusner Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I am curious although I have the 2 books of 1667 1676 by Reusner, are there any internet files in Fronimo or pdf of Reusner? Thanks in advance. don't know about internet, but there are one or two pieces by Reusner for the theorbo (or archlute) in Goess/Theorbo. Just to mention. Best, Mathias -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
Of course, Jean-Marie, my to obvious omission, but still, the period coinsiding with the 11/13-c lute repertoire is extremely unfavorable for the archlute as the solo instrument. Perhaps Italians were still playing it, but mostly in Italy - vide Arigoni dynasty (no single piece of music I know, how much I'd like to), and here and there in Central Europe occasionally too. But remind me a source of genuin archlute solo music from outside of Itay, please, I'd be gratefull. French kings, like Louis XIII and Louis XIV were permanently in a state of wars, but their marchals secured by force or conquered nothing special, quite contrary to their poets, musicians, painters, designers, etc. Half of Europe begin speaking French and playing the French way, including the d-m lute, and as far as in Poland, the country for a long time culturally binded to everything Italian. In Danzig - that's far north near Königsberg - you could find any natinal elemnts - Italian, English, of course German and Polish, but since some 1630/40 the lute was French with all it's flavors. And Pierre Gaultier's print of 1638, one of the first with d-m pieces in it, was copied and known. I doubt Virginia Renata von Gehema had two instruments - one for her solo French, German and Polish music, and the other for Albert Arien and protestant hymns, happened to be also present in her book. I think we greatly undervalue the importance of the d-m lute in the present lute world. J _ On 2008-10-24, at 19:48, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: ...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) ! Jean-Marie === 24-10-2008 18:07:01 === If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 24-10-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
That's something! A bit more detailes, Roman, please. J __ On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote: And in the 18th century- Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli. RT - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo ...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) ! Jean-Marie === 24-10-2008 18:07:01 === If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 24-10-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa _Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you could cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and viliges. It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until you'll point out to the hard copy of their music. More or less the same means Janovka (1701) from Prague when he says that one could cover all the roofs in the city with the great number of lutes there. He says nothing about archlute in his _Clavis ad Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as I know. J ___ On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote: And in the 18th century- Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli. RT - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo ...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) ! Jean-Marie === 24-10-2008 18:07:01 === If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 24-10-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
So I'd kiss their dupa and play Uccelini, Colista, Corelli or Handel - at least without a shame, and not transtabulate or steal casual bits from Weiss or Logy. I still believe lutenist is a musician - isn't he?, and not a prisoner of the tablature ghetto. It's a frustrating abridgement ...well, for me. We to often forget the tablature is only a _notation_, not the Music. J ___ On 2008-10-24, at 21:30, Roman Turovsky wrote: How can I desribe the situation succintly? There aree Mss, but they are owned by a major dziura w dupie who wouldn't let anyone see them, a bit like the Chilesotti debacle... RT - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa _Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you could cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and viliges. It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until you'll point out to the hard copy of their music. More or less the same means Janovka (1701) from Prague when he says that one could cover all the roofs in the city with the great number of lutes there. He says nothing about archlute in his _Clavis ad Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as I know. J ___ On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote: And in the 18th century- Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli. RT - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo ...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) ! Jean-Marie === 24-10-2008 18:07:01 === If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 24-10-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
No, Roman, please tell people what is _dupa_, otherwise we might be accused of talking awfully musicological lingo ;-) J ___ On 2008-10-24, at 21:30, Roman Turovsky wrote: How can I desribe the situation succintly? There aree Mss, but they are owned by a major dziura w dupie who wouldn't let anyone see them, a bit like the Chilesotti debacle... RT - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lutelist Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 3:20 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo Of course, Orlando Christoforetti in his preface to Dalla Casa _Sonate_ gives even more names. Presumably in this respect you could cite half of the address books from all Italian cities and viliges. It is as usefull for us as news from the moon, until you'll point out to the hard copy of their music. More or less the same means Janovka (1701) from Prague when he says that one could cover all the roofs in the city with the great number of lutes there. He says nothing about archlute in his _Clavis ad Thesaurum magne artis musicae_, as fare as I know. J ___ On 2008-10-24, at 20:23, Roman Turovsky wrote: And in the 18th century- Antonio Scotti, Melchiorre Chiesa, Antonio Tinazzoli, Giuseppe Vaccari and Lodovico Fontanelli. RT - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:48 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo ...you forget Piccinini, not the least of all and Melii da Reggio's liuto attiorbato ;-) ! Jean-Marie === 24-10-2008 18:07:01 === If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://poirierjm.free.fr 24-10-2008 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
On 2008-10-24, at 23:14, Are Vidar Boye Hansen wrote: If I remember well, beside of one Pignatelli MS (PL-Kj), I have never heard about this manuscript. Please, tell me more about it! PL-Kj Mus. Ms. 40591 V.A. Coelho, Authority, Autonomy, and Interpretation in Seventeenth- Century Italian Music, in: _Performance on the Lute, Guitar and Vihuela_, ed. by V.A. Coelho, Cambridge University Press 1997. There you should find more on the entire subject. the G.A. Doni MS (IT-Perugia), an incredible P.F. Valentini theori and continuo MS (Roma), the Gianoncelli print, Zamboni and dalla Casa (some sort of decadent instrument called 'arcileuto francese'), there is not much more for an archlute. So players nowadays are looking for a repertire, that's quite natural. But I guess historical archlute players were not that badly looking for d-m lute music in order to convert it to their tuning, but played whatever was arround, songs, dances, Corelli hits or their own inventions, all mostly - who knows - without the help of paper... yes, by heart... or straight from its music notation, if I can cite from Weiss. One of my students, following some historical sources and played one of the Corelli Sonatas on the d-m lute, with a noticable pleasure and, I'd say, success. Why this direction is not so willingly followed? I have played a sarabande from violin sonata by Corelli in a version for d-m lute. Its in Stefan Lundgren's tutor. I would very much like to hear your student's version! She played one of the entire Corelli Sonata (o course transposed) for an exam in the passed academic year, we don't have any recording of of it, obviously. Now she is in Trossingen for a year before coming back to Krakow for the final diploma year. She started her lute playing on the baroque lute and I think it's her main instrument, beside of the Italian type theorbo for practical reasons (that was her second one). Jurek ___ Are To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Reusner and archlute/theorbo
On 2008-10-25, at 13:57, G. Crona wrote: - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] V.A. Coelho, Authority, Autonomy, and Interpretation in Seventeenth- Century Italian Music, in: _Performance on the Lute, Guitar and Vihuela_, ed. by V.A. Coelho, Cambridge University Press 1997. There you should find more on the entire subject. Indeed you should! This interesting article seems to timely draw together ... Highly recommended reading, (as is the whole book). G. Realy, highly recommended book, in many respects. I only cannot understand why from a list of topics, ranging from the earliest lute manuscripts to the 19th C. classical guitar, the German lute, including Weiss, his predecessors and the 18th C. followers was entirely untouched. A very puzling question to me, but perhaps symptomatic of that selective tendency. J ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: schmeltzer chaconne
Timo, But in case you are looking rather for the J.G. Muffat's beautiful Passacaglia in A major, the only copy I know of is in A-KR L 83, p. (or f.) 89. Best, Jurek - On 2008-11-18, at 18:53, Peedu Timo wrote: No, it isn't, but thanks for everybody for leading me to very beautiful pieces. Best wishes, Timo Lähettäjä: dc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Lähetetty: ti 18.11.2008 15:30 Vastaanottaja: Lutelist Aihe: [LUTE] Re: schmeltzer chaconne Roman Turovsky écrit: #4 has the Chaconne. http://www.lysator.liu.se/~tuben/scores/schunfid/4unafid.pdf None of these have the Ciaconna I believe Timo is after, if it's the one on Hélène Schmitt's recording. You can listen to an excerpt of it here: http://www.amazon.fr/Johann-Heinrich-Schmelzer-Sonatae-Violino/dp/ B000PHX8LQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=musicqid=1227014725sr=1-1 or here http://musique.fnac.com/a1979497/Johann-Heinrich-Schmelzer-Sonatae- a-violino-solo-CD-albumhttp://musique.fnac.com/a1979497/Johann- Heinrich-Schmelzer-Sonatae-a-violino-solo-CD-album Dennis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bach Telemann
David, Can you give the TWV numbers for Telemann, like there are BWV for Bach? J ___ On 2009-01-24, at 09:33, David Tayler wrote: My new CD is up on Magnatune--as always, free to listen! dt http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/voicesofmusic-bachtelemann/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
Dear David and All, Strange discussion or rather no dscussion... It's good point about today preference for a short appogiatura among lutenists playing baroque music. Very often it sounds as if a luteplayer were playing those small notes in Giuliani or Carulli ;-)) I don't know if it's reluctance to read historical sources or an inert attachment to still alieve a simplified (!) XIXth C. musical language. But of course the ''baroque appogiatura'' is not only the long one -- there are places for a shor one too, but applied properly to the context [... some are written out] With appogiatura there is also a problem of an ''on beat'' or ''befor beat'' one. Monteclair and other French ''general'' writers mention both, and they have basically different harmonic implications, what is obvious. Both are vital for melody instruments and singing (plus perhaps harpsichord) but here lutenists are faced with a problem -- as the ''before beat'' type is almost impossible or a very tricky one, beside of places of puraly monodic/melodic character. But there is a whole range of other ornamentation devices, besides of appogiatura (which is however a basic ingredient of many) and most lutenists are theoreticaly well aware of them. For the earlier part of the period sufice to remember of Mersenne or Mace [...], for later obviously German sources with ''probably'' Felckenhagen in the centre, not entirely removed from the French practices, I think. The number of signs we see speaks for itself but it's probaby a tiny representation of what was ''in fassion'' (!) at certain place and times. Not only LONG or SHORT appogiatura for 150 or so years on the whole European Continent plus Brittain and Colonies ct... And lets not forget about ornamenting with rythm (inequality) or dynamics (forte-piano, ...) or other articulation or agogical or formal devices (petit reprise, ...). Of course ALL it's lost. For ever. Now we can only gess or propose learned or inspired solutions, providing we are not lazy and try to forget the famous ''one-note'' grace-notes ala Giuliani (as by some famous... ;-)). David gave good starting point. Now lets concentrate on the ''French trill''. J _ On 2009-01-29, at 13:37, David Tayler wrote: Dear Jean-Marie, Thanks for you detailed response. I would be happy to refute your points one by one, but my main point--in fact my only point, really-- that everyone is playing the ornament backwards, is the one you don't discuss. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
Mathias, As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular questio. But something not so far removed comes to my mind. Some of you may know the famous French work by Jean-Féry Rebel, namely Les elemens and its first part, Le Cahos. Here you can clik and listen to the first chord of it: http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=640583 The French were really full of imagination as far as the harmony (sonority?) is concerned. Best, Jurek On 2009-01-29, at 22:38, Mathias Rösel wrote: There is no argument concerning the duration of an appogiatura, I suppose. One half with even value, at least two thirds with odd value. My question, however, was if there should be an appogiatura at all. There is that opening measure e. g. of Bocquet's allemande #7 (Vm7 6214 fol. 5) .2 31 1 1 1 1 ---|-a---#e-e-| -a-|-a'---r'---a--| ---|-a| ---|-a| ---|--| ---|--| . ///a If you execute the first comma as an appogiatura, you'll have a ninth on the opening chord of that piece. Does that seem right to you? Mathias David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net schrieb: Shorter DT: We are playing it backwards. The sources agree, the music agrees. You can see the differences, including the changed harmonies and changed position of the trill itself: http://voicesofmusic.org/trill.html Note that this is one example, there are a thousand ways to play this trill, but they mainly have this long appogiatura. I prefer the 2/3rds rule, but there are different ways to do Long Short, as long as it isn't Short Long. I look at this as a fantastic opportunity to be on the cutting edge, and the music sounds radically different when performed in this way. Skip the rest. It's dull. Long version: I only mention the Monteclair because it is so readily available, and explains the key points. I think that for most of the basic things, that is fine. It is translated into English, and so on. Experts will always prefer the primary sources--mainly the music itself. Most people will not want to read twenty books when they can look at one eight page document. Basically, when applying French ornamentation you are looking at the multiple sources for the theory, and then the multiple sources for the practice. For example, any ornamentation chart can be derived from the doubles The process is simple, you identify the interval, look in the double, paste it into the chart. The composers have left thousands of clear examples. If you don't want to use primary sources, you can rely on premixed recipes, such as the article in the Grove, In other words, the ornaments can be reverse engineered. The sources are easily reconciled. Brouderie is too big a topic to go into here. I don't think of it as colloquial, however. It is essential for playing lute music, and probably is related to earlier English and French styles. To say that the lute players differ from the mainstream is an interesting idea, but I look at it differently. Since most of the ornaments are written out in the doubles, using primary sources, one can see what the ornaments really are. We can then see if the music is different. And then you can say, well, there few examples of this kind of lute ornamnent in French music. The lute players were trying to be different. However, I don't see that. In fact, if you look at ornamentation charts they tend to be exhaustive--they cover almost all of the ways to get from note A to note B. Even the unmeasured preludes cover most of the ornamnents. But if you have looked at all the doubles, all the cadences, all the brouderie and say the lute ornaments are different, I would be very interested in the work. And then, we would know for sure--it would not be speculation. I've looked at thousands of these pieces--I'm always struck by the similarities. The real question revolves around the appogiatura: is everyone playing it backwards? Is it Sdrawkcab? And the answer is, yes. And here I cited Monteclair because most sources agree that the appogiatura is long--specifically 1/2 or 2/3 the note length. And in the performance of lute solos, lute players invariably perform these notes shorter than that--much shorter. In fact, 1/3 or less than the note length. And that is backwards, like a Scotch snap. Or a French snap, since they had it is well. I don't really care--I think people can play the solos however they want. If you have read all the primary sources, if you have looked at the doubles, cadences brouderie, and you say, you know, I just prefer to play it backwards, fine. Play it backwards. But I don't really think that is the case. I think this is simply a modern tradition and no one wants to change it--it is harder on the lute to play the appogiaturas longer, and you have to study the voice leading as well. It is slightly more work. Few people will do it; the best players will solve the technical problems--they
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
An answer to Mathias question is still to come -- I said that. But the well-ordered French universe, as well as any other European baroque music universe is permanently beeing 'devastated' -- isn't it? -- by all the expected or unexpected appogiaturas creating 4ths, 7ths or 9ths. It's their role: to surprise or astonish... Like in Rebel, perhaps. J On 2009-01-29, at 23:49, howard posner wrote: Rebel's Cahos is not really to the point, since it is a depiction of primordial Chaos. Mathias was questioning a dissonance that was presumably intended for the composer's well-ordered French universe. On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Jerzy Zak wrote: Some of you may know the famous French work by Jean-Féry Rebel, namely Les elemens and its first part, Le Cahos. Here you can clik and listen to the first chord of it: http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=640583 The French were really full of imagination as far as the harmony (sonority?) is concerned. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill
Dear Mathias, So lets to the point and your Allemande. I don't pretend my method is right but if I'd have such a problem for the first time I'd first chack the source as I do not always trust the CNRS editions wich I just catched.The volume was published in 1972, the 'Tableau des signes de doigtés et d'ornements' is probably exhaustive for the volume's content but as far as the 'comas' are concerned largely insuficient if not missleading. From the same year is the indispensable W. Rave 'Some manuscripts of French lute music 1630-1700..., PhD at University of Illinois. Rave dates the manuscript Vm7 6214, from which the Allemande comes, as between 1672 and 1680, links its ownership and hand to Seb. de Brossard Collection. Besides of pieces of both Gautiers and few others, it is a unic source of 31 works by 'Boquet' which are found nowhere else. So the Allemande (CNRS no. 7) is unic and one cannot chack any other version by another scrib, alas. The claster of works by 'Bocquet' is specially interesting for the inclusion of 18 'preludes marquants les cadances bq.' with the 'Prelude sur tous les tons' as the most remarkable of these pieces. I smell a person of refined harmonic tast in Mr or Miss 'Bocquet' ...or perhaps Brossard as the scribe who notated someone's improvisations. I don't have the MS -- which seams to be extremely interesting and I'd love to have a copy -- but the CNRS edition gives some overal impression. Most of the 'Bocquet' pieces, beside of Preludes, have some sort of ornamental dissonace at the very begining. At the first chord of your Allemande (7) section B, there is also 'something' (inverted mordent?) which creates 'harmonic confusion'. Similar coma at the first chord have also the Sarabande (18) and 'Autre facon' (19)... ct. If I play it, I would have absolutely no objection against the appogiatura. It's the most harsh in the collection but still idiomatic. And the source (the MS) is most probably trustworthy. Now, the whole ornamentation problem in this style of LUTE music is quite complicated matter, as it is not only 'from above or below' but... u, wolud be a long, long letter. Besides, we have to remember, the music have to please, not cause a headache, even the 'historical music' ;-)) Jurek _ On 2009-01-30, at 14:03, mathias.roe...@t-online.de wrote: Dear Jerzy, it's amazing to me, indeed, how a baroque piece that starts with a 7th in the opening chord, comes to your mind just like that. As you asked David, I'll refrain from answering that particular questio. I didn't mean to ask David Tayler exclusively because I prefer open discussions rather than dialogues, and, second, David is not the only expert on this subject. Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill
Dear Mathias, On 2009-02-01, at 00:23, Mathias Rösel wrote: Dear Jerzy, checking the source would be great, but unfortunately I share your plight, not owning a copy or facsimile of Vm7 6214. I have to rely on the CNRS edition. I wasn't familiar with the dating by Rave. The sisters Bocquet flourished during the 1640ies, so there are some 30 years between this copy and its possible authors. 30 years of change in style and aesthetics... I wasn't looking for the one and only appropiate execution of commas. The one and only appropiate execution shouldn't exist in music, and best if we end up with different solutions! For the welfare of United Colours of B... aroque Music. I'm suspicious that what I was actually looking for, was some support for the execution of commas as simple trills. Here is a salvation: If the music was by or for the Bocquets, then Mersenne (1635/6) solves the problem. In an English translation (Martinus Nijhoff /The Hague 1957 /repr. 1964) on page 107 he says: IV. On the ornamentation. ……… Now the one which is formed in this fashion: , is called “shake” ordinarily, and most people use no other character to express all the different sorts [[JZ: sic!, meaning both upper and lower auxiliary, with two or more notes?]]; that is why I have not wished to change it, since it is familiar to everyone, so as not to use any novelty if it is not useful. But there are still other ornamentations which they call _accens plaintifs_, _martelemens_, _verves cassez_, and _battemens_, as we shall see at the end of this treatise. [[JZ: now -- ]] As for the first marked by this comma and used on the open string, it is necessary to consider two things for executing it well, that is, that the finger tip of the left hand, which ought to make this ornamentation, be well upon the string on which it is to be made and that the finger not be lifted from above the sad string, so that one perceives only that it has been played by the right hand. [...] If this ornamentation is found at another letter than an a as is seen here, the first finger of the left hand must [...] be place above the fret d, [...] and form the ornamentation of the little finger above the fret f. [...] For me it is a clear description of your simple trill starting from the main note. However I personally don't like the word trill which is for me a modern passkey for to great variety of historical ornaments. But I have no access to original Latin or French. I cut out all Mersennes painfull divagations whether to play one or two semiton second in the ornament. But now, in the light of this, I'd have another problem -- what to do with the next note (only melodic), also with the come after it. Shall we play too a simple trill or appogiatura from above (which I never liked in such situations) or perhaps from below, if Mersenne allowes the coma to express all the different sorts of ornaments -- ? But if the source is late (say 1680) and the ornamental signs are from Brossard rather (or understood his way) then I wouldn't be quite sure about the simple trill from the main note. Now maybe DGautier, Gallot or Mouton is a better prompter -- ? And what if a piece be called La Belle Homicide and found in the Augsburg fantastic JBHagen Collection, what is actually the case with the Beautifull Criminal -- ?! A Horror !!! We'd have to study Leopold Mozart. Not as a rule, and by far not at all places. Just e. g. with the opening chord of allemande #7. I was seeking liberation from the rule that baroque trills, and French baroque trills in particular, are always to be preceded by appogiature. If I remember well, this splinter sits in the a.. from the beginning of modern research on historicall ornamentation. There are people who cannot imagine a baroque trill without an appogiatura from above or below. On the other side perhaps is Frederick Neumann (Ornamentation in baroque and post baroque music: With Special Emphasis on J. S. Bach, 1983) who's shown good number of very nice exceptions and in fact, for some, definitely broke the magic rule. With that opening chord, an appogiatura on the root would obscure and confuse the recognition of the key. And that's not what ornaments are generally supposed to serve as. As much as I like Neumann, I personally enjoy obscuring and confusing ;-) and in such a simplistic music as this, in a way, the flourishes and other personalities would for me be the last weapon to ...bring it to life. But this is only me. some sort of ornamental dissonace at the very begining. At the first chord of your Allemande (7) section B, there is also 'something' (inverted mordent?) which creates 'harmonic confusion'. Similar coma at the first chord have also the Sarabande (18) and 'Autre facon' (19)... ct. With these two, I have less difficulties, as the comma affects the 5th above the root. If executed as an appogiatura, the
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
The problem is, it is a long note and a simple ''shake/trill'' concisting of three notes (as one can surmise from Mersenne twisting description) biginning from the main note, is not enough. It is a long note and long notes invite something extra, something special. The well known Lacrimae by JD also in some sources begins with an ornamental sign on the third of its first chord (it is also a doted crochet). Does the Bocquet's Allemande (1640-1680) belongs to the earlier performance tradition (lets call it Dowland-Mersenne) or to the later one (say Brossard-Mouton)? I think it may be a question of our very personal taste and stylistic preference. Each style, to be rendered convincingly, needs to be very, very familiarized with it. A quick, intensive research is not enough. Sometime an answer to a tiny problem is somewhere between lines, to be rediscovered through years, and most refinements are permanently lost. Ornamentation is such a refinement. But lets not forget about ouerseves. Here and Now! We can not only keep reproducing the lost art, but also continue the ''school'' and bring forward new refinements. In fact sometinme it can be the only feasible thing, however some will insiste to call it HIP. J ___ Simple shake (simplified): .4 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver) ---|-a--#e-e-| -a-|-a-r-a-r-a-r'--a-| ---|-a---| ---|-a---| ---|-| ---|-| . ///a Shake preceded by appogiatura (simplified): .4 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver) ---|---a--#e-e-| -a-|-r-a-r-a-r'--a-| ---|-a-| ---|-a-| ---|---| ---|---| . ///a Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
Andreas, On 2009-02-01, at 18:50, Andreas Schlegel wrote: Here's what Denis Gaultier (or M.de Montarcis) wrote as last comment in rule 7 in the Livre de tablature (in French - for English translation see the article of Jorge Torres in the recent LSA Journal): ... mais il faut observer que chacun peut ménager ces especes d agreements, selon la nature du chant de la piece et du mouvement. What in the Torres translation reads: ''...But it must be observed that everyone can treat these kinds of ornaments, according to the nature of the piece’s melody and its tempo (mouvement).'' What now it may sound like: ...listen to the music arround and look how people are singing and playing similar passages; but if in doubt, come to my place, it's Rue de Vaugirard 7...'' But it was over 330 years ago, alas... Such is the ''precise nature'' of historical sources. We'd now need a cold technical instruction, which is hard to find. But even if it is somewhere, it's still not enough. It's music, and one needs and Artist to bring it to life again. He puts his stemp on it, which for some is a new religion, for others unacceptable. These are paradoxes of the so called historical music. J ___ Andreas Am 01.02.2009 um 17:52 schrieb Jerzy Zak: The problem is, it is a long note and a simple ''shake/trill'' concisting of three notes (as one can surmise from Mersenne twisting description) biginning from the main note, is not enough. It is a long note and long notes invite something extra, something special. The well known Lacrimae by JD also in some sources begins with an ornamental sign on the third of its first chord (it is also a doted crochet). Does the Bocquet's Allemande (1640-1680) belongs to the earlier performance tradition (lets call it Dowland- Mersenne) or to the later one (say Brossard-Mouton)? I think it may be a question of our very personal taste and stylistic preference. Each style, to be rendered convincingly, needs to be very, very familiarized with it. A quick, intensive research is not enough. Sometime an answer to a tiny problem is somewhere between lines, to be rediscovered through years, and most refinements are permanently lost. Ornamentation is such a refinement. But lets not forget about ouerseves. Here and Now! We can not only keep reproducing the lost art, but also continue the ''school'' and bring forward new refinements. In fact sometinme it can be the only feasible thing, however some will insiste to call it HIP. J ___ Simple shake (simplified): .4 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver) ---|-a--#e-e-| -a-|-a-r-a-r-a-r'--a-| ---|-a---| ---|-a---| ---|-| ---|-| . ///a Shake preceded by appogiatura (simplified): .4 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 (4 = crotchet, 2 = quaver, 1 = semiquaver) ---|---a--#e-e-| -a-|-r-a-r-a-r'--a-| ---|-a-| ---|-a-| ---|---| ---|---| . ///a Mathias To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
Of course, the paradox concernes us, creators and consumers of music and our vision of the modern phenomenon called ''historical music''. It is a fancy interplay between science and art, it's a modern thing in music history -- isn't it?, and in a way quite logically it's ''modern music'' as well, however strange it may sound to all. J ___ On 2009-02-01, at 20:12, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: I agree, Jerzy, but isn't it rather the paradox(es) of so called historical musicians ...??? Jean-Marie ;-) === 01-02-2009 19:38:37 === These are paradoxes of the so called historical music. J To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] French trill + New thrill
OK, then live music is always (?) fresh and ''currant'' (instead of ''modern''), whatever you'd say about its origin or background. Now, concerning the ''replication of the past'' versus ''continuation of the school'', don't you think that since long -- perhaps 20 or 30 years -- lutemakers basically stopped making exact replicas and are rather making new lutes, however of course, based on several principals what they think is ''a good lute'' or ''a good theorbo'' ct... But is there now any luteplayer, virtuoso and composer, who is able to continue, too, the tradition of creating and performing his new (or at least processed old) ricercars, sonatas, allemades, waltzes, tangos, sambas... as idiomatic lute compositions?, and people are buying his CD like their newly ordered lutes based on... J ___ On 2009-02-02, at 11:31, Mark Wheeler wrote: I am always very uneasy about using the word Modern; it is a term that by its nature is destined to be out of date very quickly. Thank (fill in you own imagined deity) we live in a post-modern world... To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Old Satoh Vinyl Recording
Becouse people quite often don't hear while listening. But if you'll tell them you are playing on gut, then it is entirely different story. J ___ On 2009-02-02, at 19:28, howard posner wrote: How do gut strings mask incompetence? However gut has been used lately to mask various forms/degrees of incompetence. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
If it's still about ''French trill'', I'd insist -- it's ''ours trill'', however long would be someone's explanations and justifications. Therefore the HIP performance is always ''modern'' or ''currant'' or ''today'' (without going into the present day entangled terminology). In a way the Early Music World permanently tamper or fake the truth about the performance practice -- which is in reality inaccessible after 200 or 400 years -- everyday only pleasing our eclectic notion what ''was'' good at certain time. Once, 30 or 50 or 70 years ago, it was a ''modern'' revolutionary approach (then ''modern music'', just based on old scores) in opposition to a ''traditional'', evolutionary or conservative attitude (however reaching for new scores)... Today it is largely commercialized and we are not asked what it is. Another side. So called ''sources'', copies of instruments, strings, etc. are very atractive gadgets of strong historical foundation. But judges are we! The same people who by iPods. Every year musicologists are bringing up a new crap on which they've been working for years and building their PhDs (Musicology seams very afirmative). Is it realy all what has patine worth playing? Is the ''old music'' synonymous to ''good music'' ...without you super- active and creative participation? Today. Have you ever uncovered, after some ''deconstruction'' work, that a familiar gem is not such a jewel, as you were taught for years. Is every French Menuet or entire Kellner or the so called ''early Weiss'' from, say, Harrah MS, or half of Falckenhagen or... (you name what) really worth your time, or it's only an atractive historical cookie for verbal mill? So let's be honest? Is the early music old or new music? And what are the implications? J To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: French trill?
David T, David R, On 2009-02-03, at 17:30, David Rastall wrote: On Feb 3, 2009, at 1:19 AM, David Tayler wrote: I'm old fashioned, I guess; I think the old ways are better. You mean your father and grandfather's or the Bocquet and Mouton way? As I'd objectively appreciate and trust the first solution (at last you should remember), I'd be much concerned about the second, as I know close to nothing. We love to change the past in order to make it better. Or so we rationalize. Didn't JS Bach add his own basso continuo to one of the Palestrina masses. Yikes!!! But Bach himself, who I think had great respect for the stile antico would have thought that he was improving the piece by bringing it up to date. A piece of music consist of an abstract structure and a performance in certain way. Bach, I suppose, did nothing to improve the abstract structure, just performed it his way, as continuo is a matter of ''performance practice''. The question is, what exactly were the old ways? Did the old ones play their allemandes and bourees with their local lute god's fingering and ornament instructions propped up in front of them. I imagine they all did at first, but sooner or later one has to go beyond the primer stage and get into the music on one's own terms. This is simply at certain time and place a fashion of doing things one or the other way, like wearing jacket or a long coat. Often there is a guru who dictates it through his publications or popularity. Most follow him... Segovia once likened all the rules and regulations involved in learning music, as a scaffolding: eventually the scaffolding has to come down, and the building will then, hopefully, be able to stand on its own... We lived up to a time when computers can present such an abstract vision of a piece. But people, by nature, all the time dress it with something extra. We too, with our lutes, just differently then Segovia. Unfortunately we have no recording of Dowland and Sor ;-) Thus, there is no objective image of a piece+execussion, as there is no objective history -- we are creating it always anew. Sad? Inspiring? Dangerous? I also think one learns more form one note of a great player than a whole book of deconstructionist. Absolutely! Deconstruction is temporary; music is forever. So you both think ''deconstruction'' as a method is bad. Hm, I wonder if we all think about the same. But I fear you are permanently deconstructing the music lying on your music stand and joining up together some way..., aren't you? DR dlu...@verizon.net J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Silvius Leopold W.
I hope so. Regards J _ On 2009-02-03, at 23:24, Markus Lutz wrote: Hello Bernd and Jurek, I only understand: Weiss, Grodkow, Jerzy Zak ... So Grodkow now finally celebrates Weiss as son of the town, isn't it? Best regards Markus Bernd Haegemann schrieb: Wow, while we are talking ..others are already making an idol of SLW :-) http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/ POWIAT05/92517093Template=printpicart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstraße 11 88422 Bad Buchau Tel 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail mar...@gmlutz.de Homepages http://www.slweiss.com (Silvius Leopold Weiss) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SLW, again
No J _ On 2009-02-04, at 00:18, Edward Martin wrote: Is there an English translation? ed At 11:05 PM 2/3/2009 +0100, Jerzy Zak wrote: --===AVGMAIL-4988C134=== Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is absolutely mad and crazy text, I have never said such stupidities as the author relates. I see one has to be extremaly carefull about those gazetteers of popular local papers. But all in all they generated a positive movement arround Weiss and the lute. Of course this is the strongest theory that Weiss was born in Grottkau/ Grotkow, close to certainty, but future will have to prove it still. J _ On 2009-02-03, at 22:44, Bernd Haegemann wrote: that was the print version, here is the whole newspaper :-) http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/ POWIAT05/92517093 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: SLW, again
It is absolutely mad and crazy text, I have never said such stupidities as the author relates. I see one has to be extremaly carefull about those gazetteers of popular local papers. But all in all they generated a positive movement arround Weiss and the lute. Of course this is the strongest theory that Weiss was born in Grottkau/ Grotkow, close to certainty, but future will have to prove it still. J _ On 2009-02-03, at 22:44, Bernd Haegemann wrote: that was the print version, here is the whole newspaper :-) http://www.nto.pl/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090123/ POWIAT05/92517093 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: players getting better--was Trench Fill
Michal, Welcome to the list! J __ On 2009-02-04, at 17:27, Michał Jasionowski wrote: 2009/2/3 [1]chriswi...@yahoo.com Unfortunately for human society, the strongest, best, most sensible evolutionary advances in any field are hopelessly pitted against an even more powerful and ruthless force: fashion. Chris So maybe they just aren't the best ones? Also, the most adapted species die because they are more vulnerable to any change of environment. And for musicians changes in fashions means changes of environment. Michal To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Haynes Book, was French trill?
On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote: BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in the 20th century. What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument? J _ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Haynes Book, was French trill?
Excuse me, but are we talking about some rare forgotten curiosity of someones articulation or a term on par with vibrato, considering modern termonology. Until now I thought 'tremolo' is a fast repetition of one or two notes, as in scoring (orchestration/ instrumentation) for bowed strings, but also known as a 'guitar tremolo'. I think, David shoud reply what he means. Regards, J _ On 2009-02-05, at 09:23, Daniel Winheld wrote: On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote: BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in the 20th century. Conchita Supervia- Spanish singer, 1895- 1936. Did some very interesting things with her voice. Also had the ability to refrain from doing them. What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument? J To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: tremolo was Tench Frill
David, you prevailed me, you are a true visionary. J __ On 2009-02-05, at 11:30, David Tayler wrote: as strong as the rattle of dice in a box was the way it was described :) dt At 12:23 AM 2/5/2009, you wrote: On 2009-02-04, at 21:30, David Tayler wrote: BTW, the tremolo is more interesting than the vibrato in early recordings. People stopped using it. And it sure sounds better without it. I'd trade vibrato for tremolo any day. Nobody talks about that, but it is the biggest single change in performance in the 20th century. Conchita Supervia- Spanish singer, 1895- 1936. Did some very interesting things with her voice. Also had the ability to refrain from doing them. What is tremolo in singing or on melody instrument? J -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill
Quite funny -- Karamazov (by accident of course!) in context of dilettantism on the list now... ;-)) J On 2009-02-07, at 09:55, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote: ;-) Honest, Roman ? JM === 07-02-2009 01:48:26 === Musicality. RT - Original Message - From: Mark Wheeler l...@pantagruel.de To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Lutelist' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 7:45 PM Subject: AW: [LUTE] Re: Karamzov--was Trench Fill At what? jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr http://poirierjm.free.fr 07-02-2009 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Anthony, I'm really fascinted by your detailed analyzis of all technicall matters concerning lute construction, stringing and playing. I wish I had such an eye on all this things. But in my experience, after some 40 years of observations of teaching music playing (including my own regular education) I'm more and more incined to think that the deciding requirement in a good music peformance is... a talent. And a personal contact with a master. That was obvious in historical times and persist until now, despite all technologicall advance. As all know, there are several methods of playing -- a historical one, a modern one (a post-modern one ;-))) and all in between. But aside from the method, a player needs a good ear and a complex musical inteligence which guides him how to get the most from his instrument (when he pics up another instrument he may finde that another method or place to place his fingers is better). An instantanous feed-back is a pre condition, like with a new car (or horse) which you are trying to bridle. After years you may develope a method which for you is good one, for others may not. Bthat is becouse a method is not the case. I'm pretty sure past players played in a hudge variety of ways and we can only take very general guidelines from them. What guided them (the good ones of course) and shoud assist us, presently and always, is a musical end to which mastering of an instrument leads. What is this 'musical end' is a wide topic and can serve for another thread. What I wanted to say is that inicially a player needs a master (or rather masters, as combination of some two particular people may not always work) and some kind and amount of musical talent. The rest of the way lies in his hands and ears, must fit to his body (or the other way arround) and be convincing to more then him. I'm simply against mythologisation of a method and believe in a unique human gift, which has been pushed aside in most discussions on HIP. By the way... I note that Satoh, is perhaps even further back (low tension), but with with Gautier TO shape, see here, and also listen to the effect: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/old/Cleveland2006/TastingBaroque.html http://tinyurl.com/2vxntm Listen http://tinyurl.com/2rsk5p Am I wrong or not but all appogiaturas I hear are sharp ''backwords'', not to say about other ''nuances''... I am interested in acquiring a deeper undesrtanding of these issues, not necessarily looking for a catechism. Me too, only the balance matters. J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Karamazov
Karamazov and Dilettantism! Really fascinating. Is anybody brave enough to throw an exegesis on the combination? Is Karamazov a perversely hidden dilettante dressed up in attributes of great virtuoso or is he an evangelist of true and clean expression, just the instrument (a bit moded but still not enough) isn't perfect? Anyway, it's a case strong and human, beside of being a musical one. Several captions comes to mind on a long distance between master and hustler. One thing is certain -- he will provoke. J _ On 2009-02-08, at 17:49, Roman Turovsky wrote: A difficult question, the loneliness at the top being poor excuse for elation. I know for a fact that those Things of Beauty that Deviate from the Protocol do in fact get documentably appreciated. That surely helps to deal with the indifferent world. RT I tend to identify with - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com To: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov It may well be exactly the case when the truth is depressing; but wouldn't it, at the same time, leave you feeling elated? AB - Original Message - From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net To: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Cc: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 1:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Karamazov That would be too depressing to believe. RT From: Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com Well Roman, to paraphrase from a recently released movie, maybe we're just not that into him To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dilettantism
Anthony, On 2009-02-08, at 19:16, Anthony Hind wrote: Indeed, there are signs that there were disagreements, between lutenists of past times. About the practice of using Bologna lutes... Some lutenists like Mace and Jacques Gautier, who seem to... The description by Mace of J. Gautier showing... We see that the king, and one of Jacques Gaultier's students bought these lutes, not Gaultier, himself, who... While in Burwell, in contrast, we see a scathing attack on Gautier's 12c lute. This makes me think that even then, there could be controversy between ancients and moderns... Fantastic!!! I'd love to have all this in a book format. I think you are certainly able and qualified to do it. Anthony, please, write a handbook for lutenists. As for now, I'm struggling today for a bit of time to practice, as beside of having a good master and a talent, by all means one need a motivation for a hard work. Another truism (to annoy Roman ;-)). Am I wrong or not but all appogiaturas I hear are sharp ''backwords'', not to say about other ''nuances''... I am afraid I have not quite understood this last remark, so I can not tell you whether you are mistaken or not. This was seemingly out of this topic, but you've included the exemple here so I couldn't resist a reaction. But I should rather extract it and put into the ''French trill''. To put it simple, evidently Satoh, a master for more then one generation of lute players, since some time in avant-guard of research on stringing, an icon of a ''new'' right hand approach to baroque technique, playes the basic French appogiatura (notated with a coma after a letter) in such a unorthodox way??? And I know, his students do the same. You may take it as a critic, as I wolud do 5 or 25 years ago. But it is a wider thing. You can find questionable elements in playing of several people, including ''stars'', but in such cases it is never discused -- to delicate? Or perhaps it desn't matter, like single strung instruments, hybrids, toy-theorboes, prevailing renesans tuning on archlutes in most baroque continuo performances. etc, etc. I think the EM movement once was a stroke of genius, but from the start it had a concealed virus (or more then one) -- an immanent conflict between historical evidence and common musical sens. Now it is to obvious and hundreds of HIP cases testify to this, every day. Let's be honest... But I'd love to have your book on phisics of lute! And I value your knowledge, immensaly. Regards Anthony Jurek ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
I like your comment very much. I might only add that if the sound
idea is ''before'' the instrument, then in between is the hand. So,
to put it a bit facetiously, if one has a 'heavy hand'', the tension
of strings, and therefore a hand position, is no problem... ;-))
There is of course no logic or science behind it, but quite human
observation.
J
___
On 2009-02-09, at 13:06, vance wood wrote:
Thank you for posting these images. I have never had a comment on
this subject before. What do I know? However; the Renaissance
images confirm what I have always done, and not because the
pictures say to do so but because the instrument sounds better if
played somewhere a bit South of the center of the Rose. I do not
play Baroque Lute but I understand the general consensus is to play
just North of the bridge, often with the little finger on or
behind the bridge. I think that the same result of it sounds
better is the reason. I think the probable reason is the tension
of the strings. I assume the strings on a Baroque Lute to be
lighter in tension and would buzz, rattle and become muddy in sound
if played closer to the Rose. Playing closer to the bridge adds
the effect of a higher tension to the strings. Just my conjecture
and means little---or maybe not, but I know of no one who has
pointed this out. The old proverb in discussions about who shot
John is always followed by the proverb follow the money. When it
comes to music I think the proverb should be, and probably is,
follow the sound.
VW
- Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier
jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
To: lute lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 5:56 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: RH position, was: Dilettantism
May I remind all of you interested in that thread on hand
position, that I had put up a couple of web pages with
iconographical evidence about that very same point. You will find
it there :
for the renaissance : http://le.luth.free.fr/renaissance/index.html
for the 17th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque/index.html
for the 18th century : http://le.luth.free.fr/baroque2/index.html
I will let you choose your conclusion ;-))
Best,
Jean-Marie
=== 09-02-2009 11:45:05 ===
If all the pictures show us that the RH was at
the bridge, then many of the pictures have gone missing.
dt
At 12:33 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote:
From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de
All instruction from the period tell us and the pictures
show us that the right hand was at the bridge. How
seriously should we take this? Barto
Perhaps like with a traffic sign when driving a car? I mean, not
religiously, of course B)
Mathias
An unexpectedly Gallic opinion!
RT
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[LUTE] Re: Lost Berlin Manuscripts
Dear Luca, Wouldn't it be more usefull to get hold of a younger publication?: Dieter Kursch, Lenz Meierott (ed.) - Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau, Schott 1992. Leaving aside all the old legends from the pre-1980's, you'll get from the book detailed descriptions with incipits of all the Berlin tablatures now at the Jagiellonian Library. And they are no longer lost or kept in secret, you can order copies of all of them, as if they were in Berlin or anywhere in the world: http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php Best, Jurek ___ On 2009-04-06, at 21:28, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear all, I have unsuccessfully tried to find a copy of the famous paper: P. J. P. Whitehead, The Lost Berlin Manuscripts, in Notes, The Quarterly Journal of the Musical Library Association (33)1976, pp. 7-15 As you may know this article covers the interesting story concerning the collection of music manuscripts in the Jagellonian Library in Krakow, Poland, including lute manuscripts. The article is (at least to me) impossible to get or buy, and therefore to read. If someone has a way to help, please address the answer privately. Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lost Berlin Manuscripts
Dear Luca, A short list of them you can see here: http://www-bnus.u-strasbg.fr/Smt/pl.htm Jurek -- Dear Luca, Wouldn't it be more usefull to get hold of a younger publication?: Dieter Kursch, Lenz Meierott (ed.) - Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau, Schott 1992. Leaving aside all the old legends from the pre-1980's, you'll get from the book detailed descriptions with incipits of all the Berlin tablatures now at the Jagiellonian Library. And they are no longer lost or kept in secret, you can order copies of all of them, as if they were in Berlin or anywhere in the world: http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php Best, Jurek ___ On 2009-04-06, at 21:28, Luca Manassero wrote: Dear all, I have unsuccessfully tried to find a copy of the famous paper: P. J. P. Whitehead, The Lost Berlin Manuscripts, in Notes, The Quarterly Journal of the Musical Library Association (33)1976, pp. 7-15 As you may know this article covers the interesting story concerning the collection of music manuscripts in the Jagellonian Library in Krakow, Poland, including lute manuscripts. The article is (at least to me) impossible to get or buy, and therefore to read. If someone has a way to help, please address the answer privately. Thank you in advance, Luca To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Erzlaute
What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord, at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-)) j _ On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Quite possible!, must find some recordings, seriously. … OK, just recent historical music ;)) J On 2009-07-10, at 00:33, Roman Turovsky wrote: And in the case of Eisler and Dessau it can be positively classy, especially when Gisela May sung to such an accompaniment. RT From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com Oh well, I remember it from my school years, …hm. I thought it was an eastern/communistic miserable licence for a substitute of harpsichord, at most good for a cabaret. Now!, I see, it has it's class and composers. Tomorrow we'll need a true replica ;-)) j _ On 2009-07-10, at 00:03, Roman Turovsky wrote: I think it is a contraption that inserts a metal platelet between hammers and strings, and creates a sort of a whorehouse harpsichord. It was much loved by both Dessau and Eisler. RT (fan of both) - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 5:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute That reminds me the term rather seldom used nowadays: teorbierte laute (or close to that spelling), which for a long time had an awkward Polish equivalent …really a terrible one, doesn't matter what. Time has changed, now we have some English language problems and e.g. the untranslatable to Polish re-entrant. As the early music movement is slowly passing away (Oooo?!) …well, evolving -- I wonder if the last mentioned term will still be understood in 20 or 40 years. Now, tell me what is wanzenklavier - ? I'm looking closer at some XXth C. songs with guitar and came accros Tierverse für Gesang, Gitarre und Wanzenklavier by Paul Dessau. J __ On 2009-07-09, at 22:14, Mathias Rösel wrote: And btw, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archlute is just as sweeping IMHO, neglecting differences between the liuto attiorbato, the arciliuto and the archlute. Someone put a language link to it into http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzlaute, but that is misleading. The German term Erzlaute was meant to be generic. Mathias Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com schrieb: David, Thanks for that. Besides, you've writen a very interesting comment on the latest semiannual online comparison of video hosting sites . I'm absolutely not qualified to comment on that, but would love to read other's -- just to remind it's still untouched by other pluckers. Perhaps some lute exemple ?? J _ On 2009-07-09, at 20:33, David Tayler wrote: Archlute dt At 11:29 AM 7/9/2009, you wrote: What is an Erzlaute? The other instruments pecified on the page are organ, harpsichord, violins, cello, guitar, theorbE. jz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
On 2009-07-10, at 14:09, David van Ooijen wrote: On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 2:01 PM, Jerzy Zakjurek...@gmail.com wrote: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single stringing is historical ;-))) As is playing from empty scores. ;-) David That's right! I know one wired gamba player and composer(!) who once has done a fantastic performance, as if reading from a score. After the concert we've seen the score… and that was the best part J ___ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The Glogauer Liederbuch
Try to contact Dr Pawel Gancarczyk pawel.gancarc...@ispan.pl from IS PAN (The Institute of Art - Polish Academy of Science) http://www.ispan.pl/eng/instituteofart.htm In his choice of publications (Wybor publikacji) you can find in English e.g.: http://www.ispan.pl/stronyprac/ISPAN/gancarczyk_pawel.php -- The Neapolitan Repertory in the Glogauer Liederbuch, [in:] Polish Musical Culture within the European Context, red. Zofia Helman, Warszawa 2004, s. 38–48 (= Musicology Today 1) -- …also other texts, either close to, or in Polish or German and a review of: Dieter Kirsch, Lenz Meierott: Berliner Lautentabulaturen in Krakau, Mainz 1992, „Muzyka” 45: 2000, nr 1, s. 87–89 The Glogauer Liederbuch is at the Jagiellonian Library, Krakow, Poland at the moment http://www.bj.uj.edu.pl/index_en.php and you can simply order a microfilm or digitized copy. The copies does the same man who's done the Spinacino two years ago for his 500th anniversary. Quite good. Regards, Jurek __ On 2009-07-10, at 15:54, nedma...@aol.com wrote: Does anyone know if there is an edition of the Glogauer Liederbuch currently available? A search on the web gives me information about it, but not if it's available. Amazon lists it as out of print and either unavailable or of limited availability. Ned To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute
Dear Karl, I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single strings. It is possible. Thanks for the observation, Jurek On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote: J, if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than 13 or 14. Karl - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Erzlaute
Of course, it is not simplified view of a famous player. Look at the 6-line staves, with all its unevennesses and shades, and many other detailes… It's obvious, Falckenhagen was a man of his time… (you can develope it however you like). His own music has nothing to do with Weiss or JSBach, which he probably transcribed, perhaps in his Leipzig school years. It is the time of the Mannheim school, Leopold Mozart and so on. Consider the articulation resources of the time needed or indispensable. Etc… I won't go further on, however I'm temped ;-) J _ On 2009-07-10, at 16:54, Roman Turovsky wrote: The englaving is unusually precise. Look for the strange slots cut in the walls of the pegbox. especially the bass side. It sure looks like an angelique to me. RT - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: Karl-L. Eggert karl.l.egg...@t-online.de Cc: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:46 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Erzlaute Dear Karl, I'm looking invariable puzzled at the engraving for more then 20 years and I counted the pegs too. I recently converted (tempted by videos of some great modern players!) one of my swan neck lutes to single strings as well. I still have all the pegs on place, just single strings. It is possible. Thanks for the observation, Jurek On 2009-07-10, at 16:27, Karl-L. Eggert wrote: J, if you count the pegs on Adamo´s Lute there will be some more than 13 or 14. Karl - Original Message - From: Jerzy Zak jurek...@gmail.com To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 2:01 PM Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: Erzlaute On 2009-07-10, at 12:11, David Tayler wrote: The problem here is that single stringing is historical, .. Yeee... There are men who loves chaos, they need it to breath, to florish, in the best possible terms. Others cannot live without order, alwaye seeking knowledge and establishing harmony, whatever is the evidence. Some are doing this and saying the other ;-) The past is unpredictable, to say anachronistically, and largely in our hands. Look at this: http://tinyurl.com/muyoco Single strings or double courses? Of course, we know the man, his opus, obviously a swan neck lute, French tuning, bla bla bla, etc., etc. But stop automatic thinking, click again. Wishful thinking, a florish of knowledge or chaos of evidence? Is it a trick or a very simple matter of fact? Single stringing is historical ;-))) J __ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
