subject:"\[LUTE\] Re\: Mrs White's nothing"

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-26 Thread John Mardinly

   I think now, in the weird world of Trumpism, we would call them
   "Alternative Notes".
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
   EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
   Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
   But donât call the labâ¦.I wonât be there!

   On Jan 17, 2017, at 7:19 AM, Mathias RÃ¶sel
   <[3]mathias.roe...@t-online.de> wrote:

 Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning
 "false notes" in his fantasia.

   I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes"
   (Mathias, is that why you put it in quotes?)
   Yes.
   Mathias
   "Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica
   ficta", i.e. notes that are generated from hexachords other than the
   standard three. So, as an alternative (possible) translation one might
   read:
   " from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that,
   when played well appear to sound good."
   Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of
   Lodovico's skills as a harp player but actually rather convincing when
   you look at the music. And it give us valuable information on
   techniques used on diatonic harps to cope with the increasing needs of
   raised tones in cadences.
   Cheers, Ralf Mattes

 Mathias

 To get on or off this list see list information at

 [4]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmo
 uth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DQIFaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGq
 yv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-L
 NEQ=rHEm-2wyXDTorGs3mmZhE8D7GJUhjAi2fc5wOMSFRBs=lzMqTfYH3TiHSeP3
 xSwR8gp85cdLdl-QOVnKH280Zes=

   --

References

   1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
   2. tel:408-921-3253
   3. mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de
   4. 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DQIFaQ=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=rHEm-2wyXDTorGs3mmZhE8D7GJUhjAi2fc5wOMSFRBs=lzMqTfYH3TiHSeP3xSwR8gp85cdLdl-QOVnKH280Zes=

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-21 Thread Peter Martin

   Bass line B flat to F natural in version 1 seems more apposite than B
   flat to F sharp in version 2, so I would vote for no change.
   All best
   Peter
   On 15 January 2017 at 13:00, Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   wrote:

 Dear lute netters,
 please note that the tablature snippets in this mail may look very
 strange if you do not use a fixed font or - much worse - your mail
 client wraps after 80 bytes.
 I am currently playing through the music supplement 100 (English
 Lute Society) and noticed some thing I had not noticed before.
 CLM 56 appears as
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   | |\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |
  | |.   |\   ||.   |\   | |.   |\   ||.|.   |\
 ||.   |\   | |.   |\   |||
 _d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
 _d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
 _a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___
 d__|_a___a___e___a__|
 |_d___b___a__||_
 ___|_d___b___a__|
 _c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_
 f__|_a___c__|
 |_c___a__|_c__|_
 ___|_c__|
 |_d__|_c___a__|_a___
 d__||
 in the Poulton edition (1974) and in John's version in the
 supplement.
 I think it must   be changed to (bar 4)
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   | |\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |
  | |.   |\   ||.   |\   | |.   |\   ||.|.   |\
 ||.   |\   | |.   |\   |||
 _d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
 _d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
 _a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___
 d__|_a___a___e___a__|
 |_d___b___a__||_
 ___|_d___b___a__|
 _c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_
 f__|_b___c__|
 |_c___a__|_c__|_
 ___|_c__|
 |_d__|_c___a__|_a___
 d__||
 1) It sounds awfully wrong
 2) Dowland did not write such harmonies - Cutting did :)
 3) compare bar 2
 What do you think?
 Rainer
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-17 Thread Mathias Rösel

> Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
> notes" in his fantasia.

I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes" (Mathias, is 
that why you put it in quotes?)

Yes.
Mathias




"Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica ficta", i.e. 
notes that are generated from hexachords other than the standard three. So, as 
an alternative (possible) translation one might read:
" from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that, when played 
well appear to sound good."

Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of Lodovico's 
skills as a harp player but actually rather convincing when you look at the 
music. And it give us valuable information on techniques used on diatonic harps 
to cope with the increasing needs of raised tones in cadences.

 Cheers, Ralf Mattes

> 
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-16 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

And finally, the thesis by Roa Alonso, Francisco Javier (2016) :  "Alonso 
Mudarra, vihuelista en la casa del infantado y canónigo en la catedral de 
Sevilla" 
can be downloaded in pdf from here: http://eprints.ucm.es/39306/1/T37818.pdf

Have a look at pages 261 - 265 about the Fantasia 10 in question !

Re-best ;-) ,

Jean-Marie


--
 
> 
>Am Sonntag, 15. Januar 2017 22:37 CET, Mathias Rösel 
> schrieb: 
> 
>
>> > and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast 
>> > enough.
>> > There are no "wrong" notes.
>
>Wait, wait! Nowhere does Mudarra mention speed at all. It's an easy to fall in 
>trap to claim to know
>what an author "wants to say", esp. if you are ignoring what he wrote - 
>"Algunas falsas tañiendo se bien 
>no pareçen mal"
>
>> Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
>> notes" in his fantasia.
>
>I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes" (Mathias, is 
>that why you put it in quotes?)
>
>"Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica ficta", 
>i.e. notes that are generated from
>hexachords other than the standard three. So, as an alternative (possible) 
>translation one might read:
>" from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that, when 
>played well appear to sound good."
>
>Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of Lodovico's 
>skills as a harp player but actually
>rather convincing when you look at the music. And it give us valuable 
>information on techniques used on
>diatonic harps to cope with the increasing needs of raised tones in cadences.
>
> Cheers, Ralf Mattes
>
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-16 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

And in English here :
http://www.lavihuela.com/Vihuela/My_publications_files/GRIFFITHS%201989%20mudarra.pdf


--
 
> 
>Am Sonntag, 15. Januar 2017 22:37 CET, Mathias Rösel 
> schrieb: 
> 
>
>> > and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast 
>> > enough.
>> > There are no "wrong" notes.
>
>Wait, wait! Nowhere does Mudarra mention speed at all. It's an easy to fall in 
>trap to claim to know
>what an author "wants to say", esp. if you are ignoring what he wrote - 
>"Algunas falsas tañiendo se bien 
>no pareçen mal"
>
>> Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
>> notes" in his fantasia.
>
>I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes" (Mathias, is 
>that why you put it in quotes?)
>
>"Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica ficta", 
>i.e. notes that are generated from
>hexachords other than the standard three. So, as an alternative (possible) 
>translation one might read:
>" from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that, when 
>played well appear to sound good."
>
>Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of Lodovico's 
>skills as a harp player but actually
>rather convincing when you look at the music. And it give us valuable 
>information on techniques used on
>diatonic harps to cope with the increasing needs of raised tones in cadences.
>
> Cheers, Ralf Mattes
>
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-16 Thread Jean-Marie Poirier

Dear all,

All you want to know about this Fantasia by Mudarra : 
http://www.lavihuela.com/Vihuela/My_publications_files/GRIFFITHS%201986%20mu%20fantasia.pdf

Best,

Jean-Marie


--
 
> 
>Am Sonntag, 15. Januar 2017 22:37 CET, Mathias Rösel 
> schrieb: 
> 
>
>> > and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast 
>> > enough.
>> > There are no "wrong" notes.
>
>Wait, wait! Nowhere does Mudarra mention speed at all. It's an easy to fall in 
>trap to claim to know
>what an author "wants to say", esp. if you are ignoring what he wrote - 
>"Algunas falsas tañiendo se bien 
>no pareçen mal"
>
>> Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
>> notes" in his fantasia.
>
>I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes" (Mathias, is 
>that why you put it in quotes?)
>
>"Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica ficta", 
>i.e. notes that are generated from
>hexachords other than the standard three. So, as an alternative (possible) 
>translation one might read:
>" from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that, when 
>played well appear to sound good."
>
>Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of Lodovico's 
>skills as a harp player but actually
>rather convincing when you look at the music. And it give us valuable 
>information on techniques used on
>diatonic harps to cope with the increasing needs of raised tones in cadences.
>
> Cheers, Ralf Mattes
>
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread Dan Winheld

Interesting- to (some) modern players- both HIP and non-HIP; by the way- 
that "well played" has to automatically be synonymous with "fast enough".
- And Ralf, thanks for the info concerning falsas, ficta, and the 
hexachords.


I never heard that Mudarra was mocking Ludovico, rather instead that he 
was honoring the great harpist's ability to throw in some chromatic 
(well, falsa/ficta fun) notes playing a diatonic harp. Another theory 
(or actual fact?) was that harpists would indeed have a string in f# in 
one octave and an f natural in another, to cope with the need for such.


Dan


On 1/15/2017 3:28 PM, Ralf Mattes wrote:
  
Am Sonntag, 15. Januar 2017 22:37 CET, Mathias Rösel  schrieb:
  


and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast enough.
There are no "wrong" notes.

Wait, wait! Nowhere does Mudarra mention speed at all. It's an easy to fall in 
trap to claim to know
what an author "wants to say", esp. if you are ignoring what he wrote - 
"Algunas falsas tañiendo se bien
no pareçen mal"


Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
notes" in his fantasia.

I'd even be reluctant to translate "falsas" with "false notes" (Mathias, is 
that why you put it in quotes?)

"Musica falsa" was a well established alternative term for "musica ficta", i.e. 
notes that are generated from
hexachords other than the standard three. So, as an alternative (possible) 
translation one might read:
" from here until the end you find some (disjunct) hexachords that, when played well 
appear to sound good."

Not nearly as good a story as that about Mudarra making fun of Lodovico's 
skills as a harp player but actually
rather convincing when you look at the music. And it give us valuable 
information on techniques used on
diatonic harps to cope with the increasing needs of raised tones in cadences.

  Cheers, Ralf Mattes


  
  
  

  
  
  

  






To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread Mathias Rösel

> Has anyone ever done a study of possible wrong notes in ‘Forlorne Hope?” In 
> Alonso Mudarra’s Fantasia, there is, according to Pujol, a comment: ‘There 
> are are few false notes but they do not sound bad if played well’. So it may 
> be an over reach to assume that unusual sounds may have a high probability of 
> being typographical errors.

> This is certainly his famous

Fantasía que contrahaze el arpa en la manera de Ludovico

> and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast enough.
> There are no "wrong" notes.



Indeed, and it was Mudarra himself who wrote those words concerning "false 
notes" in his fantasia.

Mathias




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread Rainer


On 15.01.2017 20:19, John Mardinly wrote:

Has anyone ever done a study of possible wrong notes in ‘Forlorne Hope?” In 
Alonso Mudarra’s Fantasia, there is, according to Pujol, a comment: ‘There are 
are few false notes but they do not sound bad if played well’. So it may be an 
over reach to assume that unusual sounds may have a high probability of being 
typographical errors.


This is certainly his famous

Fantasía que contrahaze el arpa en la manera de Ludovico

and he wants to say that the false relations sound fine if played fast enough.

There are no "wrong" notes.

Rainer





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread John Mardinly

   Has anyone ever done a study of possible wrong notes in âForlorne
   Hope?" In Alonso Mudarra's Fantasia, there is, according to Pujol, a
   comment: âThere are are few false notes but they do not sound bad if
   played well'. So it may be an over reach to assume that unusual sounds
   may have a high probability of being typographical errors.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
   EMail: [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
   Cell: [2]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
   But don't call the labâ¦.I won't be there!

   On Jan 15, 2017, at 10:36 AM, Alain Veylit
   <[3]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:

   I personally disagree with changing the rhythm in that bar. It is
   perfectly fine to my ear. There is a danger in over-correcting: it can
   take away the original flavor of the piece. If it can fly, let it fly.
   If it cannot fly, try to make it fly.
   In any case, wrong notes should always be accented, otherwise they
   sound like mistakes.
   On 01/15/2017 08:55 AM, Rainer wrote:

 On 15.01.2017 16:45, Ron Andrico wrote:

 Rainer, it's simply a difference in the application of an
 accidental, which most likely is a copyist's error - or a copyist's
 insipid choice, if he or she was unschooled in the proper horizontal
 tracking of parts.  It's a grave misIn any case, wrong notes should
 always be acccented, otake to think of lute tablatures as the
 embodiment of the composer's intention, and many silly mistakes can
 be fixed simply by thinking in horizontal parts, as our 16th-century
 antecedents would have done, rather than our modern concept of
 vertical harmonies.

 By the way, I also believe that the rhythm in bar 4 has to be
 changed:
  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
  |\  |\  |\  |   |\
  |.  |\  |   |   |
 _c___a__
 |_a___a___e___a__||
 |_d___b___a__||
 |_b___c__||
 |_c__||
 |||
 Otherwise it doesn't match the upbeat before bar 1 (in case you
 repeat the strain) and I think the second strain needs a quarter
 note upbeat as well.
 I know that many people hesitate to change anything in such cases.
 However, don't forget, this was not copied by Dowland.
 Unfortunately no other copy/version of the piece has survived.
 Rainer

 RA
 
 From: [4]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[5]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
 behalf of Matthew Daillie <[6]dail...@club-internet.fr>
 Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:20 PM
 To: Rainer; Lute net
     Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing
 Dear Rainer,
 It doesn't sound awfully wrong to me. Furthermore, if you play just
 the
 bass line you will see that the voice moves in exactly the same
 fashion
 in bars 5 and 6.
 Best,
 Matthew
 On 15/01/2017 14:00, Rainer wrote:

 Dear lute netters,
 please note that the tablature snippets in this mail may look very
 strange if you do not use a fixed font or - much worse - your mail
 client wraps after 80 bytes.
 I am currently playing through the music supplement 100 (English
 Lute
 Society) and noticed some thing I had not noticed before.
 CLM 56 appears as
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\
 ||.  |\  |   |   |
 _d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
 _d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
 _a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d___
 ___|_a___a___e___a__|
 |_d___b___a__||_
 ___|_d___b___a__|
 _c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_f___
 ___|_a___c__|
 |_c___a__|_c__|_
 ___|_c__|
 |_d__|_c___a__|_a___d___
 ___||
 in the Poulton edition (1974) and in John's version in the
 supplement.
 I think it must  be changed to (bar 4)
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\
 ||.  |\  |   |   |
 _d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
 _d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
 _a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d___
 ___|_a___a___e___a__|
 |_d___b___a__||_
 ___|_d__

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread Alain Veylit

I personally disagree with changing the rhythm in that bar. It is 
perfectly fine to my ear. There is a danger in over-correcting: it can 
take away the original flavor of the piece. If it can fly, let it fly. 
If it cannot fly, try to make it fly.


In any case, wrong notes should always be accented, otherwise they sound 
like mistakes.






On 01/15/2017 08:55 AM, Rainer wrote:

On 15.01.2017 16:45, Ron Andrico wrote:
Rainer, it's simply a difference in the application of an accidental, 
which most likely is a copyist's error - or a copyist's insipid 
choice, if he or she was unschooled in the proper horizontal tracking 
of parts.  It's a grave misIn any case, wrong notes should always be 
acccented, otake to think of lute tablatures as the embodiment of the 
composer's intention, and many silly mistakes can be fixed simply by 
thinking in horizontal parts, as our 16th-century antecedents would 
have done, rather than our modern concept of vertical harmonies.




By the way, I also believe that the rhythm in bar 4 has to be changed:


  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
  |\  |\  |\  |   |\
  |.  |\  |   |   |
 _c___a__
|_a___a___e___a__||
|_d___b___a__||
|_b___c__||
|_c__||
|||


Otherwise it doesn't match the upbeat before bar 1 (in case you repeat 
the strain) and I think the second strain needs a quarter note upbeat 
as well.


I know that many people hesitate to change anything in such cases.

However, don't forget, this was not copied by Dowland.

Unfortunately no other copy/version of the piece has survived.

Rainer



RA


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf 
of Matthew Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:20 PM
To: Rainer; Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

Dear Rainer,

It doesn't sound awfully wrong to me. Furthermore, if you play just the
bass line you will see that the voice moves in exactly the same fashion
in bars 5 and 6.

Best,

Matthew

On 15/01/2017 14:00, Rainer wrote:

Dear lute netters,

please note that the tablature snippets in this mail may look very
strange if you do not use a fixed font or - much worse - your mail
client wraps after 80 bytes.

I am currently playing through the music supplement 100 (English Lute
Society) and noticed some thing I had not noticed before.

CLM 56 appears as


 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\
||.  |\  |   |   |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d__|_a___a___e___a__| 



|_d___b___a__|||_d___b___a__| 



_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_f__|_a___c__| 



|_c___a__|_c__||_c__| 



|_d__|_c___a__|_a___d__|| 





in the Poulton edition (1974) and in John's version in the supplement.

I think it must  be changed to (bar 4)


 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\
||.  |\  |   |   |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d__|_a___a___e___a__| 



|_d___b___a__|||_d___b___a__| 



_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_f__|_b___c__| 



|_c___a__|_c__||_c__| 



|_d__|_c___a__|_a___d__|| 





1) It sounds awfully wrong

2) Dowland did not write such harmonies - Cutting did :)

3) compare bar 2

What do you think?

Rainer




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail 
list<http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>

www.cs.dartmouth.edu
Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. 
getting on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How 
do I get off the lute mail list?

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread Rainer


On 15.01.2017 16:45, Ron Andrico wrote:

Rainer, it's simply a difference in the application of an accidental, which 
most likely is a copyist's error - or a copyist's insipid choice, if he or she 
was unschooled in the proper horizontal tracking of parts.  It's a grave 
mistake to think of lute tablatures as the embodiment of the composer's 
intention, and many silly mistakes can be fixed simply by thinking in 
horizontal parts, as our 16th-century antecedents would have done, rather than 
our modern concept of vertical harmonies.



By the way, I also believe that the rhythm in bar 4 has to be changed:


  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
  |\  |\  |\  |   |\
  |.  |\  |   |   |
 _c___a__
|_a___a___e___a__||
|_d___b___a__||
|_b___c__||
|_c__||
|||


Otherwise it doesn't match the upbeat before bar 1 (in case you repeat the 
strain) and I think the second strain needs a quarter note upbeat as well.

I know that many people hesitate to change anything in such cases.

However, don't forget, this was not copied by Dowland.

Unfortunately no other copy/version of the piece has survived.

Rainer



RA


From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf of Matthew 
Daillie <dail...@club-internet.fr>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2017 2:20 PM
To: Rainer; Lute net
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

Dear Rainer,

It doesn't sound awfully wrong to me. Furthermore, if you play just the
bass line you will see that the voice moves in exactly the same fashion
in bars 5 and 6.

Best,

Matthew

On 15/01/2017 14:00, Rainer wrote:

Dear lute netters,

please note that the tablature snippets in this mail may look very
strange if you do not use a fixed font or - much worse - your mail
client wraps after 80 bytes.

I am currently playing through the music supplement 100 (English Lute
Society) and noticed some thing I had not noticed before.

CLM 56 appears as


 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\
||.  |\  |   |   |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d__|_a___a___e___a__|

|_d___b___a__|||_d___b___a__|

_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_f__|_a___c__|

|_c___a__|_c__||_c__|

|_d__|_c___a__|_a___d__||



in the Poulton edition (1974) and in John's version in the supplement.

I think it must  be changed to (bar 4)


 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\
||.  |\  |   |   |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d__|_a___a___e___a__|

|_d___b___a__|||_d___b___a__|

_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_f__|_b___c__|

|_c___a__|_c__||_c__|

|_d__|_c___a__|_a___d__||



1) It sounds awfully wrong

2) Dowland did not write such harmonies - Cutting did :)

3) compare bar 2

What do you think?

Rainer




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail 
list<http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html>
www.cs.dartmouth.edu
Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting on and 
off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get off the lute 
mail list?

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread Matthew Daillie


Dear Rainer,

It doesn't sound awfully wrong to me. Furthermore, if you play just the 
bass line you will see that the voice moves in exactly the same fashion 
in bars 5 and 6.


Best,

Matthew

On 15/01/2017 14:00, Rainer wrote:

Dear lute netters,

please note that the tablature snippets in this mail may look very 
strange if you do not use a fixed font or - much worse - your mail 
client wraps after 80 bytes.


I am currently playing through the music supplement 100 (English Lute 
Society) and noticed some thing I had not noticed before.


CLM 56 appears as


 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\  
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\  
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\  
||.  |\  |   |   |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__ 
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d__|_a___a___e___a__| 

|_d___b___a__|||_d___b___a__| 

_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_f__|_a___c__| 

|_c___a__|_c__||_c__| 

|_d__|_c___a__|_a___d__|| 




in the Poulton edition (1974) and in John's version in the supplement.

I think it must  be changed to (bar 4)


 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  |\ |\  
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\
 |\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |\  |\   |\  |\  |\  ||\  |\  |\  |\ |\  
|\   |\  |\  |\  |\  |
 ||.  |\  |   |.  |\  ||.  |\  |   |.   |.  |\  |   |. |\  
||.  |\  |   |   |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__ 
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___d__|_a___a___e___a__| 

|_d___b___a__|||_d___b___a__| 

_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_f__|_b___c__| 

|_c___a__|_c__||_c__| 

|_d__|_c___a__|_a___d__|| 




1) It sounds awfully wrong

2) Dowland did not write such harmonies - Cutting did :)

3) compare bar 2

What do you think?

Rainer 




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread G. C.

   Look at a4 in 5th measure. Much ado about white's nothing :)
   G

   On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Christopher Stetson
   <[1]christophertstet...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Rainer and all,
It appears to me that both examples are identical.
Chris.

  On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Rainer
   <[1][2]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
  wrote:
Dear lute netters,
please note that the tablature snippets in this mail may look very
strange if you do not use a fixed font or - much worse - your mail
client wraps after 80 bytes.
I am currently playing through the music supplement 100 (English
Lute Society) and noticed some thing I had not noticed before.
CLM 56 appears as
 |\ |\|\|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|\
   |\|\
|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|\|\
 |\ |\|\|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|
  |\|\
|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|\|
 |  |.|\| |.|\|  |.|\| |.
   |.|\
| |.|\|  |.|\| | |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___
d__|_a___a___e___a__|
|_d___b___a__||_
___|_d___b___a__|
_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_
f__|_a___c__|
|_c___a__|_c__|_
___|_c__|
|_d__|_c___a__|_a___
d__||
in the Poulton edition (1974) and in John's version in the
supplement.
I think it mustbe changed to (bar 4)
 |\ |\|\|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|\
   |\|\
|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|\|\
 |\ |\|\|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|
  |\|\
|\|\|\|\ |\|\|\|\|
 |  |.|\| |.|\|  |.|\| |.
   |.|\
| |.|\|  |.|\| | |
_d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
_d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
_a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___
d__|_a___a___e___a__|
|_d___b___a__||_
___|_d___b___a__|
_c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_
f__|_b___c__|
|_c___a__|_c__|_
___|_c__|
|_d__|_c___a__|_a___
d__||
1) It sounds awfully wrong
2) Dowland did not write such harmonies - Cutting did :)
3) compare bar 2
What do you think?
Rainer
To get on or off this list see list information at

  [2][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
 References
1. mailto:[4]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
2. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:christophertstet...@gmail.com
   2. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

2017-01-15 Thread Christopher Stetson

   Dear Rainer and all,
   It appears to me that both examples are identical.
   Chris.

   On Sun, Jan 15, 2017 at 8:00 AM, Rainer <[1]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
   wrote:

 Dear lute netters,
 please note that the tablature snippets in this mail may look very
 strange if you do not use a fixed font or - much worse - your mail
 client wraps after 80 bytes.
 I am currently playing through the music supplement 100 (English
 Lute Society) and noticed some thing I had not noticed before.
 CLM 56 appears as
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   | |\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |
  | |.   |\   ||.   |\   | |.   |\   ||.|.   |\
 ||.   |\   | |.   |\   |||
 _d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
 _d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
 _a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___
 d__|_a___a___e___a__|
 |_d___b___a__||_
 ___|_d___b___a__|
 _c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_
 f__|_a___c__|
 |_c___a__|_c__|_
 ___|_c__|
 |_d__|_c___a__|_a___
 d__||
 in the Poulton edition (1974) and in John's version in the
 supplement.
 I think it must   be changed to (bar 4)
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\
  |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   | |\   |\
 |\   |\   |\   |\|\   |\   |\   |\   |
  | |.   |\   ||.   |\   | |.   |\   ||.|.   |\
 ||.   |\   | |.   |\   |||
 _d__ _c___a___a__ _f___d___c__
 _d___c___a___h___f___d__ _c___a__
 _a__|_a___a___e___a__|_c___e___a___a__|_a___
 d__|_a___a___e___a__|
 |_d___b___a__||_
 ___|_d___b___a__|
 _c__|_b___c___c__|_e___b__|_
 f__|_b___c__|
 |_c___a__|_c__|_
 ___|_c__|
 |_d__|_c___a__|_a___
 d__||
 1) It sounds awfully wrong
 2) Dowland did not write such harmonies - Cutting did :)
 3) compare bar 2
 What do you think?
 Rainer
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

[LUTE] Re: Mrs White's nothing

15 matches

Site Navigation

Mail list logo

Footer information