Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 18/09/2018 19:24, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Dienstag, den 18.09.2018, 19:06 +0200 schrieb Daniel:

Maybe, I am not sure. The screenshot you send is an all purpose
purpose
widget for opening files and creating new ones from templates. But
what
you have in mind seems to be restricted to templates only.


Templates, examples, UI files, whatever you want. It gets opened with a
specific scope, though (e.g., templates).


Got it. I think it is then quite different from the opening widget of 
many other applications which is a general "open different stuff in one 
dialog/widget".


Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Dienstag, den 18.09.2018, 19:06 +0200 schrieb Daniel:
> Maybe, I am not sure. The screenshot you send is an all purpose
> purpose 
> widget for opening files and creating new ones from templates. But
> what 
> you have in mind seems to be restricted to templates only.

Templates, examples, UI files, whatever you want. It gets opened with a
specific scope, though (e.g., templates).

Jürgen

> 
> Was it clearer to me?
> 
> Daniel
> 


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 18/09/2018 17:34, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:
Am Di., 18. Sep. 2018 um 13:26 Uhr schrieb Daniel >:


I thought the widget is opened via the menu and then from within the
widget one can open the native file dialog. But maybe I misunderstood.


In the widget, you can directly click on a file, which is then opened. 
Alternatively, you can click on "Custom..." (or somesuch) which will 
open the file dialog (in case you want to use a file as a template that 
is not in one of the templates directories).


Clearer?


Maybe, I am not sure. The screenshot you send is an all purpose purpose 
widget for opening files and creating new ones from templates. But what 
you have in mind seems to be restricted to templates only.


Was it clearer to me?

Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Di., 18. Sep. 2018 um 13:26 Uhr schrieb Daniel :

> I thought the widget is opened via the menu and then from within the
> widget one can open the native file dialog. But maybe I misunderstood.
>

In the widget, you can directly click on a file, which is then opened.
Alternatively, you can click on "Custom..." (or somesuch) which will open
the file dialog (in case you want to use a file as a template that is not
in one of the templates directories).

Clearer?

Jürgen

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 18/09/2018 15:13, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 18/09/2018 à 15:06, Daniel a écrit :

On 18/09/2018 08:45, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 17/09/2018 à 19:34, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :

I wonder if a better solution is a widget that collects (and maybe
categorizes) files from given paths and let you click on it. Like
LibreOffice has it (see attachment, although LyX's definitely would
look different). This would open fro the menu if you click on "New from
Template..." or "Open Example file...".


We could definitely use a combox for ui elements (bind files, ui 
files, keyboard...).


I thought the widget is for interaction with LyX and its .lyx files, 
i.e. open, save, etc.


It is for selecting files in general. And we use it in Preferences.


Okay, then I don't think I have an idea what the widget is like. In 
Libre it is for the specific purpose of selecting documents and templates.


Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 18/09/2018 à 15:06, Daniel a écrit :

On 18/09/2018 08:45, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 17/09/2018 à 19:34, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :

I wonder if a better solution is a widget that collects (and maybe
categorizes) files from given paths and let you click on it. Like
LibreOffice has it (see attachment, although LyX's definitely would
look different). This would open fro the menu if you click on "New from
Template..." or "Open Example file...".


We could definitely use a combox for ui elements (bind files, ui 
files, keyboard...).


I thought the widget is for interaction with LyX and its .lyx files, 
i.e. open, save, etc.


It is for selecting files in general. And we use it in Preferences.

JMarc

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 18/09/2018 08:45, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:

Le 17/09/2018 à 19:34, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :

I wonder if a better solution is a widget that collects (and maybe
categorizes) files from given paths and let you click on it. Like
LibreOffice has it (see attachment, although LyX's definitely would
look different). This would open fro the menu if you click on "New from
Template..." or "Open Example file...".


We could definitely use a combox for ui elements (bind files, ui files, 
keyboard...).


I thought the widget is for interaction with LyX and its .lyx files, 
i.e. open, save, etc.


Daniel



JMarc

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 18/09/2018 08:18, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 21:28 +0200 schrieb Daniel:

I am wondering why the templates from the library directory are not
copied to the templates directory in the user directory. Is there a
specific reason for this?


If we copied those, then we effectively abandon the system directory.
Also, in a multi-user environment, it will lead to a multiplication of
identical files.


As for the widget: I guess there are some benefits to it. One could,
for
example, add a number of user defined directories to it for specific
use
in LyX. I found that a helpful function in PDF-XChange:

https://help.tracker-software.com/pdfxe7/file_ed.html

There is a similar problem with "Save As..." which could use the
widget too.

However, some people might be annoyed by having to do an extra click
where they had to do only one. So an idea might be to keep the
classic


There is no extra click involved, if I am not mis-counting.


I thought the widget is opened via the menu and then from within the 
widget one can open the native file dialog. But maybe I misunderstood.


Daniel



Jürgen


menu entries and add an "Open (Advanced)... Ctrl+Alt+O" and "Save As
(Advanced)... Ctrl+Alt+S" which shows the widget. (The key
combination
Ctrl+Shift+S is already taken. Maybe the advanced search should then
be
"Ctrl+Alt+F" too.)

Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 17/09/2018 à 19:34, Jürgen Spitzmüller a écrit :

I wonder if a better solution is a widget that collects (and maybe
categorizes) files from given paths and let you click on it. Like
LibreOffice has it (see attachment, although LyX's definitely would
look different). This would open fro the menu if you click on "New from
Template..." or "Open Example file...".


We could definitely use a combox for ui elements (bind files, ui files, 
keyboard...).


JMarc

Re: Non-native dialog

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 21:28 +0200 schrieb Daniel:
> I am wondering why the templates from the library directory are not 
> copied to the templates directory in the user directory. Is there a 
> specific reason for this?

If we copied those, then we effectively abandon the system directory.
Also, in a multi-user environment, it will lead to a multiplication of
identical files.

> As for the widget: I guess there are some benefits to it. One could,
> for 
> example, add a number of user defined directories to it for specific
> use 
> in LyX. I found that a helpful function in PDF-XChange:
> 
> https://help.tracker-software.com/pdfxe7/file_ed.html
> 
> There is a similar problem with "Save As..." which could use the
> widget too.
> 
> However, some people might be annoyed by having to do an extra click 
> where they had to do only one. So an idea might be to keep the
> classic 

There is no extra click involved, if I am not mis-counting.

Jürgen

> menu entries and add an "Open (Advanced)... Ctrl+Alt+O" and "Save As 
> (Advanced)... Ctrl+Alt+S" which shows the widget. (The key
> combination 
> Ctrl+Shift+S is already taken. Maybe the advanced search should then
> be 
> "Ctrl+Alt+F" too.)
> 
> Daniel
> 


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 17/09/2018 21:28, Daniel wrote:

On 17/09/2018 19:34, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 10:37 +0200 schrieb Daniel:

I am sorry if I have not overlooked it, but I couldn't find *any*
argument in the ticket (other than it's "horrible UI", which seems
question begging).

I have to try to find the mail discussion then (which is not
referenced
in the ticket). So far, I have seen the menu solution in several
applications, including Libre Office. I am not saying that they
never
make bad UI decisions but I am at a lack evidence for this being one.


I do not think (any longer) a menu approach is bad per se. And I agree
(meanwhile) we need to do something outside the file dialog, as it is
unlikely we will have access to native dialog's places widget.

However, the disadvantage of a menu approach is that it doesn't combine
templates (or examples) of the system and user directories (the non-
native file dialog didn't either, but that does not make it better).

I wonder if a better solution is a widget that collects (and maybe
categorizes) files from given paths and let you click on it. Like
LibreOffice has it (see attachment, although LyX's definitely would
look different). This would open fro the menu if you click on "New from
Template..." or "Open Example file...".

So it combines your idea with a more sophisticated UI.


I am wondering why the templates from the library directory are not 
copied to the templates directory in the user directory. Is there a 
specific reason for this?


As for the widget: I guess there are some benefits to it. One could, for 
example, add a number of user defined directories to it for specific use 
in LyX. I found that a helpful function in PDF-XChange:


https://help.tracker-software.com/pdfxe7/file_ed.html


Actually, one could do the same with menu's, if the file-open command 
would support it...


So that leaves the combined templates for now, or what else speaks in 
favour of a widget?


Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 17/09/2018 19:34, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 10:37 +0200 schrieb Daniel:

I am sorry if I have not overlooked it, but I couldn't find *any*
argument in the ticket (other than it's "horrible UI", which seems
question begging).

I have to try to find the mail discussion then (which is not
referenced
in the ticket). So far, I have seen the menu solution in several
applications, including Libre Office. I am not saying that they
never
make bad UI decisions but I am at a lack evidence for this being one.


I do not think (any longer) a menu approach is bad per se. And I agree
(meanwhile) we need to do something outside the file dialog, as it is
unlikely we will have access to native dialog's places widget.

However, the disadvantage of a menu approach is that it doesn't combine
templates (or examples) of the system and user directories (the non-
native file dialog didn't either, but that does not make it better).

I wonder if a better solution is a widget that collects (and maybe
categorizes) files from given paths and let you click on it. Like
LibreOffice has it (see attachment, although LyX's definitely would
look different). This would open fro the menu if you click on "New from
Template..." or "Open Example file...".

So it combines your idea with a more sophisticated UI.


I am wondering why the templates from the library directory are not 
copied to the templates directory in the user directory. Is there a 
specific reason for this?


As for the widget: I guess there are some benefits to it. One could, for 
example, add a number of user defined directories to it for specific use 
in LyX. I found that a helpful function in PDF-XChange:


https://help.tracker-software.com/pdfxe7/file_ed.html

There is a similar problem with "Save As..." which could use the widget too.

However, some people might be annoyed by having to do an extra click 
where they had to do only one. So an idea might be to keep the classic 
menu entries and add an "Open (Advanced)... Ctrl+Alt+O" and "Save As 
(Advanced)... Ctrl+Alt+S" which shows the widget. (The key combination 
Ctrl+Shift+S is already taken. Maybe the advanced search should then be 
"Ctrl+Alt+F" too.)


Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 17/09/2018 18:06, Daniel wrote:

On 17/09/2018 09:32, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 09:12 +0200 schrieb Daniel:

Hi,

FYI, on Windows 10 the non-native file dialog, activated with

\use_native_filedialog false,

causes a severe reduction in functionality. In particular, it does
not
show the custom quick access folders. I guess that is why it is not
turned on by default and might never be so.

However, I am wondering whether a number of sub-entries under the
New
and Open menu, like Libre Office, might be preferable to custom
dialogs.
For example, there could be

New >
Document (Ctl+N)
  From Template... (Ctrl+Shift+N)
etc.

Open >
Browse... (Ctrl+O)
Documents...
Templates...
etc.

I am not fully sure about the right labels but could think more about
it
if desired.


See https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/2396 (and other places in the mail
archives and the tracker) for lengthy discussions about this


By the way, is there a way in to open the file open dialog with a 
certain path? I thought I just try out how bad my GUI suggestion is 
first hand by creating an open menu and populate it with couple of 
directories. I tried


file-open C:\

but with no success. There is also no feedback as to what might be 
wrong. If it is not supported yet, maybe the "file-open" command could 
check whether it's argument is a file or directory. If it is a file, 
open it, and if it is a directory, open the file dialog from that 
directory. (I doubt that people would want to open all files in a 
directory, but that could still be taken care of by a third argument, like


file-open  *

or so.)


Actually, the command does something. It creates a new file...

file-open C:\

creates a file without a name, i.e. ".lyx", with location C:\

file-open C:

creates a file with the name "bin.lyx"...



Daniel



Jürgen



Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 17/09/2018 09:32, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 09:12 +0200 schrieb Daniel:

Hi,

FYI, on Windows 10 the non-native file dialog, activated with

\use_native_filedialog false,

causes a severe reduction in functionality. In particular, it does
not
show the custom quick access folders. I guess that is why it is not
turned on by default and might never be so.

However, I am wondering whether a number of sub-entries under the
New
and Open menu, like Libre Office, might be preferable to custom
dialogs.
For example, there could be

New >
Document (Ctl+N)
  From Template... (Ctrl+Shift+N)
etc.

Open >
Browse... (Ctrl+O)
Documents...
Templates...
etc.

I am not fully sure about the right labels but could think more about
it
if desired.


See https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/2396 (and other places in the mail
archives and the tracker) for lengthy discussions about this


By the way, is there a way in to open the file open dialog with a 
certain path? I thought I just try out how bad my GUI suggestion is 
first hand by creating an open menu and populate it with couple of 
directories. I tried


file-open C:\

but with no success. There is also no feedback as to what might be 
wrong. If it is not supported yet, maybe the "file-open" command could 
check whether it's argument is a file or directory. If it is a file, 
open it, and if it is a directory, open the file dialog from that 
directory. (I doubt that people would want to open all files in a 
directory, but that could still be taken care of by a third argument, like


file-open  *

or so.)

Daniel



Jürgen



Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 17/09/2018 10:37, Daniel wrote:

I am sorry if I have not overlooked it


ps. Should be "I am sorry if I have overlooked it" of course.

Re: Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

On 17/09/2018 09:32, Jürgen Spitzmüller wrote:

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 09:12 +0200 schrieb Daniel:

Hi,

FYI, on Windows 10 the non-native file dialog, activated with

\use_native_filedialog false,

causes a severe reduction in functionality. In particular, it does
not
show the custom quick access folders. I guess that is why it is not
turned on by default and might never be so.

However, I am wondering whether a number of sub-entries under the
New
and Open menu, like Libre Office, might be preferable to custom
dialogs.
For example, there could be

New >
Document (Ctl+N)
  From Template... (Ctrl+Shift+N)
etc.

Open >
Browse... (Ctrl+O)
Documents...
Templates...
etc.

I am not fully sure about the right labels but could think more about
it
if desired.


See https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/2396 (and other places in the mail
archives and the tracker) for lengthy discussions about this


I am sorry if I have not overlooked it, but I couldn't find *any* 
argument in the ticket (other than it's "horrible UI", which seems 
question begging).


I have to try to find the mail discussion then (which is not referenced 
in the ticket). So far, I have seen the menu solution in several 
applications, including Libre Office. I am not saying that they never 
make bad UI decisions but I am at a lack evidence for this being one.


In any case, the current dialog implementation is not good on Windows 
due to its lack in functionality compared to the native one.


Daniel



Jürgen



Daniel

Re: Non-native dialog

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Montag, den 17.09.2018, 09:12 +0200 schrieb Daniel:
> Hi,
> 
> FYI, on Windows 10 the non-native file dialog, activated with
> 
> \use_native_filedialog false,
> 
> causes a severe reduction in functionality. In particular, it does
> not 
> show the custom quick access folders. I guess that is why it is not 
> turned on by default and might never be so.
> 
> However, I am wondering whether a number of sub-entries under the
> New 
> and Open menu, like Libre Office, might be preferable to custom
> dialogs. 
> For example, there could be
> 
> New >
> Document (Ctl+N)
>  From Template... (Ctrl+Shift+N)
> etc.
> 
> Open >
> Browse... (Ctrl+O)
> Documents...
> Templates...
> etc.
> 
> I am not fully sure about the right labels but could think more about
> it 
> if desired.

See https://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/2396 (and other places in the mail
archives and the tracker) for lengthy discussions about this

Jürgen

> 
> Daniel
> 


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Non-native dialog

[Daniel]

Hi,

FYI, on Windows 10 the non-native file dialog, activated with

\use_native_filedialog false,

causes a severe reduction in functionality. In particular, it does not 
show the custom quick access folders. I guess that is why it is not 
turned on by default and might never be so.


However, I am wondering whether a number of sub-entries under the New 
and Open menu, like Libre Office, might be preferable to custom dialogs. 
For example, there could be


New >
Document (Ctl+N)
From Template... (Ctrl+Shift+N)
etc.

Open >
Browse... (Ctrl+O)
Documents...
Templates...
etc.

I am not fully sure about the right labels but could think more about it 
if desired.


Daniel