Re: Polytonic Greek input?
On 2012-04-25, stefano franchi wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde wrote: >> On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote: >>> BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel >>> loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others). >> I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with >> the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case). >> Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the >> selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek. > Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded > first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc > class) To be precise, the line(s) to look for not loading fontspec but the last font definition(s) (\setmainfont etc.) which can happen also in the custom LaTeX preamble. >> Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done >> with \textgreek? > No. This indicates that (in most cases) using the (8-bit) LaTeX fonts in LGR encoding for Greek. To be sure when which font is used, you could experiment with a different (e.g. sans-serif) main text font via the "use-non-tex-fonts" GUI. Then try with Greek Unicode characters inside and outside a region marked as Greek (polytonic). Also, try to find out whether you use babel or polyglossia (the latter is recommended with Xe/LuaTeX and Greek. a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols). >>> Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting >>> from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but >>> the characters simply disappear in the pdf. All characters or just some? >> Characters "disappearing" in the PDF are usually an indication of an >> incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or >> X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font >> with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have >> this nice feature. >> Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the >> Greek-extended Unicode block. > I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion > Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage. If simple Greek characters are present but accented ones not, this is a good indicator for an incomplete font. If no Greek is visible at all, this hints at a different problem. > But: the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that > latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the > \textgreek command? Yes. The \textgreek command switches the font encoding to LGR, (La)TeX then selects a font in LGR encoding. b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf ... >> The conversion of <, >, and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is >> only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and >> not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report? > Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like: > "Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding"? "LyX should escape <, >, and | only when using OT1 font encoding." >>> If, instead, I enter \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get >>> the expected output >> This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or >> phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde. >> (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.) > Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that > equivalent? This depends on the language package: babel switches the font encoding to LGR, polyglossia not (because there is no need for a different font encoding with Unicode-encoded fonts. Just try: if the transliteration still works, it's babel; if the Latin input come out as Latin, it's polyglossia. >> With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend >> * Use polyglossia instead of babel. >> * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters >> (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX >> preamble, see the fontspec manual). >> * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not >> work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.) If you need this often, set up keybindings (e.g. a system-wide toggle between Greek and Latin keyboard layout). Günter
Re: Polytonic Greek input?
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Guenter Milde wrote: > On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote: > >> BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel >> loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others). > > This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case. > > I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with > the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case). > > Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the > selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek. Hmm, unless memoir does something funny, fontspec should be loaded first. It's the second line in the Latex source (right after the doc class) > > Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done > with \textgreek? > No. > >> On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: >>> On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote: > >>> For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek". >> Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko) > > With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it > *may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV). > >>> a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block >>> (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols). > >> Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting >> from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but >> the characters simply disappear in the pdf. > > Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language > setting? > > Characters "disappearing" in the PDF are usually an indication of an > incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or > X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font > with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have > this nice feature. > > Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the > Greek-extended Unicode block. > I thought about that. I may be using an incomplete font. It's Minion Pro. I'll double check with another font with more complete coverage. But: the Greek text entered as ERT displays fine. Does that mean that latex (babel?) switches to an alternative font when it sees the \textgreek command? >>> b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek >>> documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf > > Sorry, I did not consider LyX' "paranoia escaping" of text input because > there is no problem using <>| in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because > this is no-break space in "normal" LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but > re-enabled by LyX). > > The conversion of <, >, and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is > only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and > not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report? > Ok, I'll file a bug report. But what is the bug, exactly? Something like: "Lyx should not escape symbols when using T1 font encoding"? >> If, instead, I enter \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get >> the expected output > > This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or > phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde. > (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.) Lyx actually inserts a \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{...}. Is that equivalent? > > >>> Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to >>> see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code. > >>> c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts >>> (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you >>> can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as >>> described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For >>> single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base >>> character in the minibuffer or bound to some key. > > >> I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work. > > With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend > > * Use polyglossia instead of babel. > > * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters > (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX > preamble, see the fontspec manual). > > * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not > work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.) > I'll have to try these ones too. Thanks, Stefano -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic Studies Ph: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: Polytonic Greek input?
On 2012-04-23, stefano franchi wrote: > BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel > loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others). This is important info. Many more things may go wrong in this case. I have no experience with LuaTeX and I don't know whether it works with the babel greek option at all (and which fonts are used in this case). Maybe your document loads fontspec after babel and this way overwrites the selection of LGR-encoded fonts for Greek. Do you use some hack to overwrite the font-encoding switch usually done with \textgreek? > On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: >> On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote: >> For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek". > Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko) With LuaTeX, babel (instead of polyglossia) and Unicode (utf8 XeTeX), it *may* be better not to set the language to Grekk (YMMV). >> a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block >> (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols). > Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting > from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but > the characters simply disappear in the pdf. Very strange. Does this happen to the same characters with the same language setting? Characters "disappearing" in the PDF are usually an indication of an incomplete font. On screen, the system (or the QT libs or fontconfig, or X...) use auto-substitution of missing characters in the configured font with characters from another known system font, xetex and luatex do not have this nice feature. Make sure the document text font contains the pre-composed characters in the Greek-extended Unicode block. >> b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek >> documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf ... > But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered > as letters. These characters are <, >, ~, ‘, > ’, " and |. Yes, these are the characters used to mark accents in the LGR transliteration (except for the single quotes - the corresponding accent markers are the ASCII chars ` and '. >> There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character). > This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work. > Example: > If I enter >eato\~u > and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf: > <επιμέλεια >εατο\ῦ > which is unsurprising, since the latex code in View>source is: > \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia > \textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u} > (You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing > accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong) Sorry, I did not consider LyX' "paranoia escaping" of text input because there is no problem using <>| in the unicodesymbols file (only ~, because this is no-break space in "normal" LaTeX, disabled by Babel for Greek but re-enabled by LyX). The conversion of <, >, and | to \textless, \textgreater, and \textbar is only required with the legacy OT1 font encoding (i.e. never in Greek and not with LyX's default setting of T1). Write a bug report? > If, instead, I enter \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get > the expected output This means you should be fine with ERT for these characters (or phrases/words containing these characters) and the tilde. (The \textgreek is inserted by LyX when you set the language.) >> Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to >> see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code. >> c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts >> (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you >> can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as >> described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For >> single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base >> character in the minibuffer or bound to some key. > I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work. With XeTeX or LuaTeX, I recommend * Use polyglossia instead of babel. * Use a text font that contains the precomposed Greek characters (you can also set up a different font for Greek and Latin in the LaTeX preamble, see the fontspec manual). * Use Unicode characters for the input. (The LGR transliteration does not work without legacy 8-bit LGR encoded fonts.) Günter
Re: Polytonic Greek input?
Hi Gunter, thanks for the help. However, I am still having troubles. BTW: I am using memoir with Luatex, language is utf8(Xetex), babel loaded with Greek polutoniko (among others). On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 2:48 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: > On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote: > For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek". Done. In my case, Greek (polutoniko) > > a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block > (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols). Using insert>symbols works, but it is a pain to use. Copy and pasting from external sources does not. I see the proper greek on screen, but the characters simply disappear in the pdf. > b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek > documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf > > There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character). > By "LGR transliteration" I think you mean the following rules in the Babel document: But in order for this to work, some characters need to be considered as letters. These characters are <, >, ~, ‘, ’, " and |. This is exactly what I was trying to do, but I cannot get it to work. Example: If I enter eato\~u and set the language to Greek Poutoniko, this is what I get in the pdf: <επιμέλεια >εατο\ῦ which is unsurprising, since the latex code in View>source is: \foreignlanguage{polutonikogreek}{\textless{}epim'eleia \textgreater{}eato\textbackslash{}\textasciitilde{}u} (You mentioned probelms with the tilde, but not even the breathing accents are correct. and the Latex looks completely wrong) If, instead, I enter \textgreek{eato\~u} in ERT, I get the expected output > If you start with method a), you can also use the View>Source feature to > see the translation to the "LGR transliteration" (unless the document > output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)). > I am using utf8, so I guess this does not apply. > Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to > see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code. > > c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts > (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you > can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as > described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For > single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base > character in the minibuffer or bound to some key. > I will have to try this once I get method (b) to work. Thanks, S. -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic Studies Ph: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: Polytonic Greek input?
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 6:05 PM, stefano franchi wrote: > Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents? > > I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter > the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used > to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it... > I forgot to mention that the wiki page on "Greek" has a section called Open problems and discussion Accents The section consists of three dead links S. -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic Studies Ph: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org
Re: Polytonic Greek input?
On 2012-04-23, René Grognard wrote: >> Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents? There are (at least) 3 ways: For all methods, you must mark the text in question as "Greek". a) use the pre-composed Unicode characters in the "Greek extended" block (drag and drop from somewhere or use Insert>Symbols). b) use the "LGR transliteration" which is described in the babel Greek documentation http://mirror.ctan.org/info/babel/babel.pdf There is no need to use ERT (except, maybe for the tilde character). If you start with method a), you can also use the View>Source feature to see the translation to the "LGR transliteration" (unless the document output encoding is set to Unicode (utf8)). Alternatively, you can look in the file "unicodesymbols" in the LyXdir to see how LyX maps the Unicode characters to LaTeX code. c) if you load the "LGRX" extended font definitions for the Greek LGR fonts (http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/) in the latex preamble, you can also use standard accent commands (and their extensions) as described in http://milde.users.sourceforge.net/LGR/lgrxenc.pdf For single accents, this should also work with accent-... LyXfuns + base character in the minibuffer or bound to some key. For quotes that you can drag and drop from somewhere, I recommend a). For larger input "by hand" without a Greek-Unicode keybord mapping b) might be more convenient. All methods can also be combined (with some experimentation). > A Lyx "newbee" myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but > under the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command \usepackage{psibycus} % LyX uses Greek fonts in the LGR font encoding instead of the ibycus encoding, therefore the input conventions differ. Günter
RE: Polytonic Greek input?
A Lyx "newbee" myself I am a long way to have it replacing TeXworks but under the latter and pdfLaTeX I use the command \usepackage{psibycus} % to use scalable Type1 fonts and with an ADSL connection to the web TeXworks, at least in my configuration, would automatically download what is required from CTAN. See http://ctan.tche.br/fonts/greek/ibygrk/doc/generic/ibycus4/README for info on Ibycus4, version 4.5 as of 2004-10-27 Then for instance: {\greek{})Apollw'nios Eu)dh'mw| xai'rein} {\greek{}eu)tu'xei} would reproduce Apollonius' greetings and Vale to Eudemus: the oxytonic accent on the omega is given by w' ; the soft (lenis) breathing on the upsilon by u); a subscripted iota on omega is w|; etc... as indicated in the README above. Ibycus gives alternative packages to write Ancient Greek poetry. A Lyx expert might tell us how to include Ibycus in Lyx.> Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2012 18:05:37 -0500 > Subject: Polytonic Greek input? > From: stefano.fran...@gmail.com > To: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org > > Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents? > > I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter > the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used > to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it... > > Thanks, > > Stefano > > > > -- > __ > Stefano Franchi > Associate Research Professor > Department of Hispanic StudiesPh: +1 (979) 845-2125 > Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 > College Station, Texas, USA > > stef...@tamu.edu > http://stefano.cleinias.org
Polytonic Greek input?
Can anyone remind me of how to input Greek (polytonic) accents? I looked on the wiki, but I could not quite figure out how to enter the breathing accents. Searching the list did not help either. I used to know it, but I can't remember how I learned it... Thanks, Stefano -- __ Stefano Franchi Associate Research Professor Department of Hispanic Studies Ph: +1 (979) 845-2125 Texas A&M University Fax: +1 (979) 845-6421 College Station, Texas, USA stef...@tamu.edu http://stefano.cleinias.org