Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 13 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: In answer to your previous comments: I tried setting the keyboard to Greek, but it doesn't do anything. Looking at the greek.kmap file I see that it doesn't really contain any redefinitions, unlike the one for vim, which does, so I wouldn't expect it to have much effect. You could consider setting up an alternative (utf8-ready) greek.kmap. However I rather suggest to switch the keyboard layout at the X-Windows level. Using a desktop manager might work. I don't use Gnome or KBD - just Icewm. But my wife is using Ubuntu with Gnome and I'll have a look to see if it is possible to make that change the characters - I've found some information on Google. There are plenty of applications for this that do not depend on Gnome or KDE, e.g. xkbsel, gkrellm-xkb, xxkb, just browse your distributions package list for programs with xkb in their name. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 13 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: In answer to your previous comments: I tried setting the keyboard to Greek, but it doesn't do anything. Looking at the greek.kmap file I see that it doesn't really contain any redefinitions, unlike the one for vim, which does, so I wouldn't expect it to have much effect. You could consider setting up an alternative (utf8-ready) greek.kmap. However I rather suggest to switch the keyboard layout at the X-Windows level. Using a desktop manager might work. I don't use Gnome or KBD - just Icewm. But my wife is using Ubuntu with Gnome and I'll have a look to see if it is possible to make that change the characters - I've found some information on Google. There are plenty of applications for this that do not depend on Gnome or KDE, e.g. xkbsel, gkrellm-xkb, xxkb, just browse your distributions package list for programs with xkb in their name. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: > On 13 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: > > On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: > In answer to your previous comments: I tried setting the keyboard to > Greek, but it doesn't do anything. Looking at the greek.kmap file I see > that it doesn't really contain any redefinitions, unlike the one for > vim, which does, so I wouldn't expect it to have much effect. You could consider setting up an alternative (utf8-ready) greek.kmap. However I rather suggest to switch the keyboard layout at the X-Windows level. > Using a desktop manager might work. I don't use Gnome or KBD - just > Icewm. But my wife is using Ubuntu with Gnome and I'll have a look to > see if it is possible to make that change the characters - I've found > some information on Google. There are plenty of applications for this that do not depend on Gnome or KDE, e.g. xkbsel, gkrellm-xkb, xxkb, just browse your distributions package list for programs with "xkb" in their name. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: A bit of background to all this: my wife is Greek and needs to type Greek occasionally; she is also a purist about accents etc. (Byzantine enthusiast). She is not happy seeing non-Greek characters on screen. In this case, a greek keyboard layout should solve the problem. Which OS are you using? If Linux, which window manager or desktop environment? E.g. with KDE it is simple to set up alternative keyboard layouts that can be switched clicking on a button in the taskbar. Alternatively to the system-level keybord layout, you can use the keyboard customization in LyX. See section 4.4 of HelpCustomization (from reading it, I gues that you cannot switch keymaps easily from inside a running LyX, though). To stress the comparing with German, where e.g. a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). I never use this feature as my keyboard has an 'ä' key at an easy accessible position. This way I have ä in both, LyX and printout without any problems. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). 1. Does DejaVu appear as a choice in other applications (abiword, ooffice, gucharmap, specimen, ...) 2. In contrast to the document fonts (for printout), the on-screen fonts are set with ToolsPreferencesLook and FeelScreen Fonts. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). 1. Does DejaVu appear as a choice in other applications (abiword, ooffice, gucharmap, specimen, ...) 2. In contrast to the document fonts (for printout), the on-screen fonts are set with ToolsPreferencesLook and FeelScreen Fonts. Günter I do have Dejavu in LyX now - I'm not sure why it wasn't appearing previously. In answer to your previous comments: I tried setting the keyboard to Greek, but it doesn't do anything. Looking at the greek.kmap file I see that it doesn't really contain any redefinitions, unlike the one for vim, which does, so I wouldn't expect it to have much effect. Using a desktop manager might work. I don't use Gnome or KBD - just Icewm. But my wife is using Ubuntu with Gnome and I'll have a look to see if it is possible to make that change the characters - I've found some information on Google. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
It is not just the accents but also hyphenation patterns etc.
The distinction is similar to german and ngerman (i.e. old and new
spelling), only that the reform in Greece was 20 years earlier).
OTOH, it can be a big timesave if you can input strange characters as a
combination of ASCII chars. Comparable to the input of math, where I
would not like to search for an integral sign in a unicode chart every
time I need an integral. This is what I like about the WYSIWYM feature:
input and on-screen rendering are optimized for editing but printout is
optimized for a good reading experimence.
* Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like Chapter or Table of
Contents) depend on the setting of greek vs. polutonikogreek.
Just greek language is *not* enough!
i have just tried it and don't see what you mean. i took
polutonikogreek-test-campbell.lyx
added Part environment once in Greek once in polutonikogreek languages as
implicit
language and in both cases i got greek translation of Part and title.
that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
(utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
combining-char{char}.
In traditional 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
\accent{char} which works well with greek but results in wrong
output with polutonikogreek.
is there some reason to use 7-8 bit encodings when we have utf8x?
Conclusion
--
please comment on:
1. LyX handling of combining-chars (whether input via accent-* lfuns or
other means) needs fixing -- independently of Greek support.
I'd like to continue discussion of combining-chars in a separate
thread.
i agree, but it would be better to move it on devel list.
2. LyX should support the language variant polutonikogreek.
+ Consesus abaout the GUI name is needed. (Suggestion Greek (polytonic))
+ add a line to LYXDIR/languages (patch exists)
+ the GUI name needs to be translated into all supported languages
(easy but some work to do)
above points are not a problem.
+ The tilde (~) is re-defined as an accent char in polutonikogreek
(similar to in german).
i see it problematic (in ideological sense). do we use such a 'hackish' mode in
any other language settings? i know Uwe was fiddling with support of exotic
languages so i would wait also for his voice about this matter once he's back.
pavel
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13.06.08, Pavel Sanda wrote:
* Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like Chapter or Table of
Contents) depend on the setting of greek vs. polutonikogreek.
Just greek language is *not* enough!
i have just tried it and don't see what you mean. i took
polutonikogreek-test-campbell.lyx added Part environment once in
Greek once in polutonikogreek languages as implicit language and in
both cases i got greek translation of Part and title.
Just have a look at the definition of the names in greek.ldf and you
will see the different definitions for polutonikogreek::
\let\captionspolutonikogreek\captionsgreek
\addto\captionspolutonikogreek{%
\def\refname{Anafor`es}%
\def\indexname{Euret'hrio}%
\def\figurename{Sq~hma}%
\def\headtoname{Pr`os}%
\def\alsoname{bl'epe ep'ishs}%
\def\proofname{Ap'odeixh}%
}
(finding out the definition for monotonic greek is left as an exercise
to the reader ;-)
that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
(utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
combining-char{char}.
In traditional 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
\accent{char} which works well with greek but results in wrong
output with polutonikogreek.
is there some reason to use 7-8 bit encodings when we have utf8x?
Several:
* keep to latex standard instead of manually setting an encoding in lyx
* compatibility, no need to install the ucs package
* speed and memory usage
* correct handling of combining chars e.g. produced by lfuns accent-*.
Disadvantage:
* unicode chars from the Greek Extended table do not work.
However, you can use the active chars defined by polutonikogreek
in combination with normal greek letters to get accented chars.
Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: A bit of background to all this: my wife is Greek and needs to type Greek occasionally; she is also a purist about accents etc. (Byzantine enthusiast). She is not happy seeing non-Greek characters on screen. In this case, a greek keyboard layout should solve the problem. Which OS are you using? If Linux, which window manager or desktop environment? E.g. with KDE it is simple to set up alternative keyboard layouts that can be switched clicking on a button in the taskbar. Alternatively to the system-level keybord layout, you can use the keyboard customization in LyX. See section 4.4 of HelpCustomization (from reading it, I gues that you cannot switch keymaps easily from inside a running LyX, though). To stress the comparing with German, where e.g. a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). I never use this feature as my keyboard has an 'ä' key at an easy accessible position. This way I have ä in both, LyX and printout without any problems. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). 1. Does DejaVu appear as a choice in other applications (abiword, ooffice, gucharmap, specimen, ...) 2. In contrast to the document fonts (for printout), the on-screen fonts are set with ToolsPreferencesLook and FeelScreen Fonts. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). 1. Does DejaVu appear as a choice in other applications (abiword, ooffice, gucharmap, specimen, ...) 2. In contrast to the document fonts (for printout), the on-screen fonts are set with ToolsPreferencesLook and FeelScreen Fonts. Günter I do have Dejavu in LyX now - I'm not sure why it wasn't appearing previously. In answer to your previous comments: I tried setting the keyboard to Greek, but it doesn't do anything. Looking at the greek.kmap file I see that it doesn't really contain any redefinitions, unlike the one for vim, which does, so I wouldn't expect it to have much effect. Using a desktop manager might work. I don't use Gnome or KBD - just Icewm. But my wife is using Ubuntu with Gnome and I'll have a look to see if it is possible to make that change the characters - I've found some information on Google. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
It is not just the accents but also hyphenation patterns etc.
The distinction is similar to german and ngerman (i.e. old and new
spelling), only that the reform in Greece was 20 years earlier).
OTOH, it can be a big timesave if you can input strange characters as a
combination of ASCII chars. Comparable to the input of math, where I
would not like to search for an integral sign in a unicode chart every
time I need an integral. This is what I like about the WYSIWYM feature:
input and on-screen rendering are optimized for editing but printout is
optimized for a good reading experimence.
* Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like Chapter or Table of
Contents) depend on the setting of greek vs. polutonikogreek.
Just greek language is *not* enough!
i have just tried it and don't see what you mean. i took
polutonikogreek-test-campbell.lyx
added Part environment once in Greek once in polutonikogreek languages as
implicit
language and in both cases i got greek translation of Part and title.
that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
(utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
combining-char{char}.
In traditional 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
\accent{char} which works well with greek but results in wrong
output with polutonikogreek.
is there some reason to use 7-8 bit encodings when we have utf8x?
Conclusion
--
please comment on:
1. LyX handling of combining-chars (whether input via accent-* lfuns or
other means) needs fixing -- independently of Greek support.
I'd like to continue discussion of combining-chars in a separate
thread.
i agree, but it would be better to move it on devel list.
2. LyX should support the language variant polutonikogreek.
+ Consesus abaout the GUI name is needed. (Suggestion Greek (polytonic))
+ add a line to LYXDIR/languages (patch exists)
+ the GUI name needs to be translated into all supported languages
(easy but some work to do)
above points are not a problem.
+ The tilde (~) is re-defined as an accent char in polutonikogreek
(similar to in german).
i see it problematic (in ideological sense). do we use such a 'hackish' mode in
any other language settings? i know Uwe was fiddling with support of exotic
languages so i would wait also for his voice about this matter once he's back.
pavel
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13.06.08, Pavel Sanda wrote:
* Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like Chapter or Table of
Contents) depend on the setting of greek vs. polutonikogreek.
Just greek language is *not* enough!
i have just tried it and don't see what you mean. i took
polutonikogreek-test-campbell.lyx added Part environment once in
Greek once in polutonikogreek languages as implicit language and in
both cases i got greek translation of Part and title.
Just have a look at the definition of the names in greek.ldf and you
will see the different definitions for polutonikogreek::
\let\captionspolutonikogreek\captionsgreek
\addto\captionspolutonikogreek{%
\def\refname{Anafor`es}%
\def\indexname{Euret'hrio}%
\def\figurename{Sq~hma}%
\def\headtoname{Pr`os}%
\def\alsoname{bl'epe ep'ishs}%
\def\proofname{Ap'odeixh}%
}
(finding out the definition for monotonic greek is left as an exercise
to the reader ;-)
that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
(utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
combining-char{char}.
In traditional 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
\accent{char} which works well with greek but results in wrong
output with polutonikogreek.
is there some reason to use 7-8 bit encodings when we have utf8x?
Several:
* keep to latex standard instead of manually setting an encoding in lyx
* compatibility, no need to install the ucs package
* speed and memory usage
* correct handling of combining chars e.g. produced by lfuns accent-*.
Disadvantage:
* unicode chars from the Greek Extended table do not work.
However, you can use the active chars defined by polutonikogreek
in combination with normal greek letters to get accented chars.
Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: > On 12 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: > A bit of background to all this: my wife is Greek and needs to type > Greek occasionally; she is also a purist about accents etc. (Byzantine > enthusiast). She is not happy seeing non-Greek characters on screen. In this case, a greek keyboard layout should solve the problem. Which OS are you using? If Linux, which window manager or desktop environment? E.g. with KDE it is simple to set up alternative keyboard layouts that can be switched clicking on a button in the taskbar. Alternatively to the system-level keybord layout, you can use the keyboard customization in LyX. See section 4.4 of Help>Customization (from reading it, I gues that you cannot switch keymaps easily from inside a running LyX, though). To stress the comparing with German, > > where e.g. "a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). I never use this feature as my keyboard has an 'ä' key at an easy accessible position. This way I have ä in both, LyX and printout without any problems. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: > Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to > use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am > trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). 1. Does DejaVu appear as a choice in other applications (abiword, ooffice, gucharmap, specimen, ...) 2. In contrast to the document fonts (for printout), the on-screen fonts are set with Tools>Preferences>Look and Feel>Screen Fonts. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: > On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: > > > Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to > > use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am > > trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). > > 1. Does DejaVu appear as a choice in other applications (abiword, >ooffice, gucharmap, specimen, ...) > > 2. In contrast to the document fonts (for printout), the on-screen >fonts are set with Tools>Preferences>Look and Feel>Screen Fonts. > > Günter I do have Dejavu in LyX now - I'm not sure why it wasn't appearing previously. In answer to your previous comments: I tried setting the keyboard to Greek, but it doesn't do anything. Looking at the greek.kmap file I see that it doesn't really contain any redefinitions, unlike the one for vim, which does, so I wouldn't expect it to have much effect. Using a desktop manager might work. I don't use Gnome or KBD - just Icewm. But my wife is using Ubuntu with Gnome and I'll have a look to see if it is possible to make that change the characters - I've found some information on Google. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
> It is not just the accents but also hyphenation patterns etc.
>
> The distinction is similar to german and ngerman (i.e. old and new
> spelling), only that the reform in Greece was 20 years earlier).
>
> OTOH, it can be a big timesave if you can input "strange" characters as a
> combination of ASCII chars. Comparable to the input of math, where I
> would not like to search for an integral sign in a unicode chart every
> time I need an integral. This is what I like about the WYSIWYM feature:
> input and on-screen rendering are optimized for editing but printout is
> optimized for a good reading experimence.
>
> * Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like "Chapter" or "Table of
> Contents") depend on the setting of "greek" vs. "polutonikogreek".
>
> Just greek language is *not* enough!
i have just tried it and don't see what you mean. i took
polutonikogreek-test-campbell.lyx
added "Part" environment once in "Greek" once in "polutonikogreek" languages as
implicit
language and in both cases i got greek translation of "Part" and title.
> > that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
> > 'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
> > accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
> > of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
> > letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
> > the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
>
> This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
> (utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
> "{}".
>
> In "traditional" 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
> "\{}" which works well with "greek" but results in wrong
> output with "polutonikogreek".
is there some reason to use 7-8 bit encodings when we have utf8x?
> Conclusion
> --
> please comment on:
>
> 1. LyX handling of combining-chars (whether input via accent-* lfuns or
>other means) needs fixing -- independently of Greek support.
>
>I'd like to continue discussion of combining-chars in a separate
>thread.
i agree, but it would be better to move it on devel list.
> 2. LyX should support the language variant polutonikogreek.
>
>+ Consesus abaout the GUI name is needed. (Suggestion Greek (polytonic))
>
>+ add a line to LYXDIR/languages (patch exists)
>
>+ the GUI name needs to be translated into all supported languages
> (easy but some work to do)
above points are not a problem.
>+ The tilde (~) is re-defined as an accent char in polutonikogreek
> (similar to " in german).
i see it problematic (in ideological sense). do we use such a 'hackish' mode in
any other language settings? i know Uwe was fiddling with support of exotic
languages so i would wait also for his voice about this matter once he's back.
pavel
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 13.06.08, Pavel Sanda wrote:
> > * Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like "Chapter" or "Table of
> > Contents") depend on the setting of "greek" vs. "polutonikogreek".
> >
> > Just greek language is *not* enough!
> i have just tried it and don't see what you mean. i took
> polutonikogreek-test-campbell.lyx added "Part" environment once in
> "Greek" once in "polutonikogreek" languages as implicit language and in
> both cases i got greek translation of "Part" and title.
Just have a look at the definition of the names in greek.ldf and you
will see the different definitions for polutonikogreek::
\let\captionspolutonikogreek\captionsgreek
\addto\captionspolutonikogreek{%
\def\refname{>Anafor`es}%
\def\indexname{Eep'ishs}%
\def\proofname{>Ap'odeixh}%
}
(finding out the definition for monotonic greek is left as an exercise
to the reader ;-)
> > > that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
> > > 'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
> > > accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
> > > of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
> > > letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
> > > the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
> >
> > This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
> > (utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
> > "{}".
> >
> > In "traditional" 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
> > "\{}" which works well with "greek" but results in wrong
> > output with "polutonikogreek".
> is there some reason to use 7-8 bit encodings when we have utf8x?
Several:
* keep to latex standard instead of manually setting an encoding in lyx
* compatibility, no need to install the ucs package
* speed and memory usage
* correct handling of combining chars e.g. produced by lfuns accent-*.
Disadvantage:
* unicode chars from the Greek Extended table do not work.
However, you can use the "active chars" defined by polutonikogreek
in combination with "normal" greek letters to get accented chars.
Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. [snip] Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm using TexLive. Unless there is some way to get this to work there is no real point in fiddling with the rest of it. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. [snip] Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm using TexLive. no, no, this is misunderstanding. screen painting has _nothing_ to do with with latex or utf8x encoding etc. it has something to do the way you have set fonts for your X-windows. i don't know how things are done on debian, but in gentoo only installing dejavu fonts was enough (the reconfiguration of X is part of instalation procedure.) Do you have these fonts installed? whats the output of: ls -l /usr/share/fonts/dejavu/ pavel
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Pavel Sanda wrote:
Question to the developers: Would it be possible to pass the tilde '~'
to LaTeX as-is if the language is set to polutonikogreek?
please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is wrong direction.
how will you determine nonbreak. space vs tilde accent then?
The same way as polutonikogreek.def: \nobreakspace vs. ~
before sinking into this issue i still don't understand why polutonikogreek
is needed, see below.
It is not just the accents but also hyphenation patterns etc.
The distinction is similar to german and ngerman (i.e. old and new
spelling), only that the reform in Greece was 20 years earlier).
OTOH, it can be a big timesave if you can input strange characters as a
combination of ASCII chars. Comparable to the input of math, where I
would not like to search for an integral sign in a unicode chart every
time I need an integral. This is what I like about the WYSIWYM feature:
input and on-screen rendering are optimized for editing but printout is
optimized for a good reading experimence.
i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i
encountered, please comment on:
1. Screen painting.
-
after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters
works in lyx without problems.
... if they are input as unicode chars.
2. LaTeX typeseting.
--
after installing unicode packages for tex fonts and input encoding
utf8x the documents with ancient greek letters obtained in document via
copy paste from e.g. wikipedia or through symbols dialog in lyx 1.6
work without problems, no switch to polutonikogreek needed, just greek
language is enough.
* unicode tex fonts is a problematic term, as standard TeX/LaTeX
currently does not handle unicode-encoded fonts.
There is an extended font encoding in Omega and full unicode support in
XeTeX.
However, many fonts exist parallel in a unicode encoding (as
OpenType, postscript or TrueType fonts) and as a set of virtual LaTeX
fonts. Examples are Latin Modern, Bera/Arev/DejaVu, Kerkis, or the
TeX-Gyre fonts.
Typesetting Greek with utf8x and (pdf)latex depends on the availability
of LGR encoded Greek fonts. Then, all greek unicode chars (including
the accented and double-accented ones) are typeset correctly.
So, I would formulate it as:
after installing the suitable fonts and the ucs package, documents with
accented Greek letters obtained via copy paste from (e.g. wikipedia)
or through symbols dialog (in lyx 1.6) work without problems if
DocumentSettingsLanguageEncoding is set to utf8x.
* Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like Chapter or Table of
Contents) depend on the setting of greek vs. polutonikogreek.
Just greek language is *not* enough!
3. Input of ancient greek letters into the document.
--
a) pasting the (whole) unicode character from outside works
b) using the keystroke of ~+char does not work - instead of accented
character we get two characters.
c) using lfun accent-tilde+char basically(*) works as far as screen
painting concerened, but fails badly once you try to typeset the
document.
the key issue is why 3c fails. guessing from the output the culprit is
that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
(utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
combining-char{char}.
In traditional 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
\accent{char} which works well with greek but results in wrong
output with polutonikogreek.
i see more ways how this could be fixed, but we should firstly agree
that THIS is the culprit.
It is one of the problems.
Conclusion
--
please comment on:
1. LyX handling of combining-chars (whether input via accent-* lfuns or
other means) needs fixing -- independently of Greek support.
I'd like to continue discussion of combining-chars in a separate
thread.
2. LyX should support the language variant polutonikogreek.
+ Consesus abaout the GUI name is needed. (Suggestion Greek (polytonic))
+ add a line to LYXDIR/languages (patch exists)
+ the GUI name needs to be translated into all supported languages
(easy but some work to do)
+ The tilde (~) is re-defined as an accent char in polutonikogreek
(similar to in german).
How should this be supported in LyX?
- not at all (input non-breakable space or ERT to get a
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Rune Schjellerup Philosof wrote: On some keyboard layouts ~ is a dead key by default (danish for instance). I wonder why tilde is a dead key on danish keyboards, we don't have any chars in our alphabet that use a tilde accent. The same holds for German. I guess someone once thought that tilde would only be used for languages, where it is an accent, and then defaulted it to dead? Then that someone thought wrong, or the one who chose ~ for homedir shortcut chose wrong :) This is why I set my keyboard layout to german (nodeadkeys) and I will not change this even if I would happen to write sometimes about el niño (or use classical Greek citations). In etc/xorg.conf: Option XkbVariantnodeadkeys but I do not know wheter the nodeadkeys variant is supported for Danish. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. This is not about conversion but display: * If you paste polytonic Greek text from e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics, this should show up in greek letters with diacritics at the correct place. * If you input latin letters and ASCII-chars for diacritics following the convention of the greek language option of babel and set the language to greek, these will be converted to greek letters in the output only. This is the same level of support as for German, say where e.g. a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). It differs from the handling of math symbols where a set of known symbol-commands like \alpha or \int are rendered as symbols in LyX. Unless there is some way to get this to work there is no real point in fiddling with the rest of it. If latin-greek input conversion is what you want, the way to go would be switching the keyboard layout, so LyX sees the correct unicode char whenever you press the right key or key-combo. This is similar to my use of a German keyboard layout in order to be able to input ä and ß at the expense of having to use AltGr-+ for the tilde ~. Alternatively, you might try OpenOffice with the Thessolonica extension: http://www.thessalonica.org.ru/en/thessalonica-ooo.html Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. [snip] Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm using TexLive. no, no, this is misunderstanding. screen painting has _nothing_ to do with with latex or utf8x encoding etc. it has something to do the way you have set fonts for your X-windows. i don't know how things are done on debian, but in gentoo only installing dejavu fonts was enough (the reconfiguration of X is part of instalation procedure.) Do you have these fonts installed? whats the output of: ls -l /usr/share/fonts/dejavu/ pavel Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: This is not about conversion but display: * If you paste polytonic Greek text from e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics, this should show up in greek letters with diacritics at the correct place. * If you input latin letters and ASCII-chars for diacritics following the convention of the greek language option of babel and set the language to greek, these will be converted to greek letters in the output only. This is the same level of support as for German, say where e.g. a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). It differs from the handling of math symbols where a set of known symbol-commands like \alpha or \int are rendered as symbols in LyX. [snip] Yes, this was the conclusion I was coming to myself. A bit of background to all this: my wife is Greek and needs to type Greek occasionally; she is also a purist about accents etc. (Byzantine enthusiast). She is not happy seeing non-Greek characters on screen. After quite a lot of work I managed to get vim (gvim) to show Greek characters on-screen and to print Greek via Latex, but she can't do it without help from me because it requires a familiarity with Latex which she doesn't have. I was hoping things might be simpler with Lyx but seemingly not. Thanks for the Thessalonica suggestion; it may be a viable alternative. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. [snip] Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm using TexLive. Unless there is some way to get this to work there is no real point in fiddling with the rest of it. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. [snip] Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm using TexLive. no, no, this is misunderstanding. screen painting has _nothing_ to do with with latex or utf8x encoding etc. it has something to do the way you have set fonts for your X-windows. i don't know how things are done on debian, but in gentoo only installing dejavu fonts was enough (the reconfiguration of X is part of instalation procedure.) Do you have these fonts installed? whats the output of: ls -l /usr/share/fonts/dejavu/ pavel
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Pavel Sanda wrote:
Question to the developers: Would it be possible to pass the tilde '~'
to LaTeX as-is if the language is set to polutonikogreek?
please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is wrong direction.
how will you determine nonbreak. space vs tilde accent then?
The same way as polutonikogreek.def: \nobreakspace vs. ~
before sinking into this issue i still don't understand why polutonikogreek
is needed, see below.
It is not just the accents but also hyphenation patterns etc.
The distinction is similar to german and ngerman (i.e. old and new
spelling), only that the reform in Greece was 20 years earlier).
OTOH, it can be a big timesave if you can input strange characters as a
combination of ASCII chars. Comparable to the input of math, where I
would not like to search for an integral sign in a unicode chart every
time I need an integral. This is what I like about the WYSIWYM feature:
input and on-screen rendering are optimized for editing but printout is
optimized for a good reading experimence.
i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i
encountered, please comment on:
1. Screen painting.
-
after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters
works in lyx without problems.
... if they are input as unicode chars.
2. LaTeX typeseting.
--
after installing unicode packages for tex fonts and input encoding
utf8x the documents with ancient greek letters obtained in document via
copy paste from e.g. wikipedia or through symbols dialog in lyx 1.6
work without problems, no switch to polutonikogreek needed, just greek
language is enough.
* unicode tex fonts is a problematic term, as standard TeX/LaTeX
currently does not handle unicode-encoded fonts.
There is an extended font encoding in Omega and full unicode support in
XeTeX.
However, many fonts exist parallel in a unicode encoding (as
OpenType, postscript or TrueType fonts) and as a set of virtual LaTeX
fonts. Examples are Latin Modern, Bera/Arev/DejaVu, Kerkis, or the
TeX-Gyre fonts.
Typesetting Greek with utf8x and (pdf)latex depends on the availability
of LGR encoded Greek fonts. Then, all greek unicode chars (including
the accented and double-accented ones) are typeset correctly.
So, I would formulate it as:
after installing the suitable fonts and the ucs package, documents with
accented Greek letters obtained via copy paste from (e.g. wikipedia)
or through symbols dialog (in lyx 1.6) work without problems if
DocumentSettingsLanguageEncoding is set to utf8x.
* Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like Chapter or Table of
Contents) depend on the setting of greek vs. polutonikogreek.
Just greek language is *not* enough!
3. Input of ancient greek letters into the document.
--
a) pasting the (whole) unicode character from outside works
b) using the keystroke of ~+char does not work - instead of accented
character we get two characters.
c) using lfun accent-tilde+char basically(*) works as far as screen
painting concerened, but fails badly once you try to typeset the
document.
the key issue is why 3c fails. guessing from the output the culprit is
that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
(utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
combining-char{char}.
In traditional 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
\accent{char} which works well with greek but results in wrong
output with polutonikogreek.
i see more ways how this could be fixed, but we should firstly agree
that THIS is the culprit.
It is one of the problems.
Conclusion
--
please comment on:
1. LyX handling of combining-chars (whether input via accent-* lfuns or
other means) needs fixing -- independently of Greek support.
I'd like to continue discussion of combining-chars in a separate
thread.
2. LyX should support the language variant polutonikogreek.
+ Consesus abaout the GUI name is needed. (Suggestion Greek (polytonic))
+ add a line to LYXDIR/languages (patch exists)
+ the GUI name needs to be translated into all supported languages
(easy but some work to do)
+ The tilde (~) is re-defined as an accent char in polutonikogreek
(similar to in german).
How should this be supported in LyX?
- not at all (input non-breakable space or ERT to get a
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Rune Schjellerup Philosof wrote: On some keyboard layouts ~ is a dead key by default (danish for instance). I wonder why tilde is a dead key on danish keyboards, we don't have any chars in our alphabet that use a tilde accent. The same holds for German. I guess someone once thought that tilde would only be used for languages, where it is an accent, and then defaulted it to dead? Then that someone thought wrong, or the one who chose ~ for homedir shortcut chose wrong :) This is why I set my keyboard layout to german (nodeadkeys) and I will not change this even if I would happen to write sometimes about el niño (or use classical Greek citations). In etc/xorg.conf: Option XkbVariantnodeadkeys but I do not know wheter the nodeadkeys variant is supported for Danish. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. This is not about conversion but display: * If you paste polytonic Greek text from e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics, this should show up in greek letters with diacritics at the correct place. * If you input latin letters and ASCII-chars for diacritics following the convention of the greek language option of babel and set the language to greek, these will be converted to greek letters in the output only. This is the same level of support as for German, say where e.g. a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). It differs from the handling of math symbols where a set of known symbol-commands like \alpha or \int are rendered as symbols in LyX. Unless there is some way to get this to work there is no real point in fiddling with the rest of it. If latin-greek input conversion is what you want, the way to go would be switching the keyboard layout, so LyX sees the correct unicode char whenever you press the right key or key-combo. This is similar to my use of a German keyboard layout in order to be able to input ä and ß at the expense of having to use AltGr-+ for the tilde ~. Alternatively, you might try OpenOffice with the Thessolonica extension: http://www.thessalonica.org.ru/en/thessalonica-ooo.html Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, please comment on: 1. Screen painting. after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in lyx without problems. [snip] Not here. I've set language to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm using TexLive. no, no, this is misunderstanding. screen painting has _nothing_ to do with with latex or utf8x encoding etc. it has something to do the way you have set fonts for your X-windows. i don't know how things are done on debian, but in gentoo only installing dejavu fonts was enough (the reconfiguration of X is part of instalation procedure.) Do you have these fonts installed? whats the output of: ls -l /usr/share/fonts/dejavu/ pavel Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: This is not about conversion but display: * If you paste polytonic Greek text from e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics, this should show up in greek letters with diacritics at the correct place. * If you input latin letters and ASCII-chars for diacritics following the convention of the greek language option of babel and set the language to greek, these will be converted to greek letters in the output only. This is the same level of support as for German, say where e.g. a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). It differs from the handling of math symbols where a set of known symbol-commands like \alpha or \int are rendered as symbols in LyX. [snip] Yes, this was the conclusion I was coming to myself. A bit of background to all this: my wife is Greek and needs to type Greek occasionally; she is also a purist about accents etc. (Byzantine enthusiast). She is not happy seeing non-Greek characters on screen. After quite a lot of work I managed to get vim (gvim) to show Greek characters on-screen and to print Greek via Latex, but she can't do it without help from me because it requires a familiarity with Latex which she doesn't have. I was hoping things might be simpler with Lyx but seemingly not. Thanks for the Thessalonica suggestion; it may be a viable alternative. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: > > i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered, > please comment on: > > 1. Screen painting. > after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works > in lyx > without problems. > [snip] Not here. I've set "language" to Greek and I've tried every available encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm using TexLive. Unless there is some way to get this to work there is no real point in fiddling with the rest of it. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
> On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: > > > > i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i > > encountered, > > please comment on: > > > > 1. Screen painting. > > after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works > > in lyx > > without problems. > > > > [snip] > > Not here. I've set "language" to Greek and I've tried every available > encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at > all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm > using TexLive. no, no, this is misunderstanding. screen painting has _nothing_ to do with with latex or utf8x encoding etc. it has something to do the way you have set fonts for your X-windows. i don't know how things are done on debian, but in gentoo only installing dejavu fonts was enough (the reconfiguration of X is part of instalation procedure.) Do you have these fonts installed? whats the output of: ls -l /usr/share/fonts/dejavu/ pavel
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Pavel Sanda wrote:
> > > > Question to the developers: Would it be possible to pass the tilde '~'
> > > > to LaTeX as-is if the language is set to polutonikogreek?
> >
> > > please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is wrong direction.
> > > how will you determine nonbreak. space vs tilde accent then?
> >
> > The same way as polutonikogreek.def: \nobreakspace vs. ~
> before sinking into this issue i still don't understand why polutonikogreek
> is needed, see below.
It is not just the accents but also hyphenation patterns etc.
The distinction is similar to german and ngerman (i.e. old and new
spelling), only that the reform in Greece was 20 years earlier).
OTOH, it can be a big timesave if you can input "strange" characters as a
combination of ASCII chars. Comparable to the input of math, where I
would not like to search for an integral sign in a unicode chart every
time I need an integral. This is what I like about the WYSIWYM feature:
input and on-screen rendering are optimized for editing but printout is
optimized for a good reading experimence.
> i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i
> encountered, please comment on:
> 1. Screen painting.
-
> after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters
> works in lyx without problems.
... if they are input as unicode chars.
> 2. LaTeX typeseting.
--
> after installing unicode packages for tex fonts and input encoding
> utf8x the documents with ancient greek letters obtained in document via
> copy & paste from e.g. wikipedia or through symbols dialog in lyx 1.6
> work without problems, no switch to polutonikogreek needed, just greek
> language is enough.
* "unicode tex fonts" is a problematic term, as standard TeX/LaTeX
currently does not handle unicode-encoded fonts.
There is an extended font encoding in Omega and full unicode support in
XeTeX.
However, many fonts exist parallel in a "unicode encoding" (as
OpenType, postscript or TrueType fonts) and as a set of virtual LaTeX
fonts. Examples are Latin Modern, Bera/Arev/DejaVu, Kerkis, or the
TeX-Gyre fonts.
Typesetting Greek with utf8x and (pdf)latex depends on the availability
of LGR encoded Greek fonts. Then, all greek unicode chars (including
the accented and double-accented ones) are typeset correctly.
So, I would formulate it as:
after installing the suitable fonts and the ucs package, documents with
accented Greek letters obtained via copy & paste from (e.g. wikipedia)
or through symbols dialog (in lyx 1.6) work without problems if
Document>Settings>Language>Encoding is set to utf8x.
* Hyphenation and babel generated strings (like "Chapter" or "Table of
Contents") depend on the setting of "greek" vs. "polutonikogreek".
Just greek language is *not* enough!
> 3. Input of ancient greek letters into the document.
--
> a) pasting the (whole) unicode character from outside works
> b) using the keystroke of ~+char does not work - instead of accented
> character we get two characters.
> c) using lfun accent-tilde+char basically(*) works as far as screen
> painting concerened, but fails badly once you try to typeset the
> document.
> the key issue is why 3c fails. guessing from the output the culprit is
> that when accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce
> 'single' character but it produces combined unicode character (i.e.
> accent char+normal char). iirc this is correct from the unicode point
> of view - single accented char is equivalent to combining char + normal
> letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not able to decode
> the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
This it the situation with accent-tilde under utf8 input encodings
(utf8 as well as utf8x) where a combining-char + char is translated to
"{}".
In "traditional" 7 or 8 bit encodings, it is exported to LaTex as
"\{}" which works well with "greek" but results in wrong
output with "polutonikogreek".
> i see more ways how this could be fixed, but we should firstly agree
> that THIS is the culprit.
It is one of the problems.
Conclusion
--
please comment on:
1. LyX handling of combining-chars (whether input via accent-* lfuns or
other means) needs fixing -- independently of Greek support.
I'd like to continue discussion of combining-chars in a separate
thread.
2. LyX should support the language variant polutonikogreek.
+ Consesus abaout the GUI name is needed. (Suggestion Greek (polytonic))
+ add a line to LYXDIR/languages (patch exists)
+ the GUI name needs to be translated into all supported languages
(easy but some work to do)
+ The tilde (~) is re-defined as an accent char in polutonikogreek
(similar to " in german).
How should this be supported in LyX?
- not
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Rune Schjellerup Philosof wrote: > On some keyboard layouts ~ is a dead key by default (danish for instance). > I wonder why tilde is a dead key on danish keyboards, we don't have any > chars in our alphabet that use a tilde accent. The same holds for German. > I guess someone once thought that tilde would only be used for > languages, where it is an accent, and then defaulted it to dead? > Then that someone thought wrong, or the one who chose ~ for homedir > shortcut chose wrong :) This is why I set my keyboard layout to german (nodeadkeys) and I will not change this even if I would happen to write sometimes about el niño (or use classical Greek citations). In etc/xorg.conf: Option "XkbVariant""nodeadkeys" but I do not know wheter the nodeadkeys variant is supported for Danish. Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12.06.08, Anthony Campbell wrote: > On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: > > > > i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i > > encountered, please comment on: > > > > 1. Screen painting. > > after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters > > works in lyx without problems. > Not here. I've set "language" to Greek and I've tried every available > encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at > all. This is not about conversion but display: * If you paste polytonic Greek text from e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics, this should show up in greek letters with diacritics at the correct place. * If you input latin letters and ASCII-chars for diacritics following the convention of the "greek" language option of babel and set the language to "greek", these will be converted to greek letters in the output only. This is the same level of support as for German, say where e.g. "a is converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). It differs from the handling of math symbols where a set of known symbol-commands like \alpha or \int are rendered as symbols in LyX. > Unless there is some way to get this to work there is no real point in > fiddling with the rest of it. If latin->greek input conversion is what you want, the way to go would be switching the keyboard layout, so LyX sees the correct unicode char whenever you press the "right" key or key-combo. This is similar to my use of a German keyboard layout in order to be able to input ä and ß at the expense of having to use AltGr-+ for the tilde ~. Alternatively, you might try OpenOffice with the Thessolonica extension: http://www.thessalonica.org.ru/en/thessalonica-ooo.html Günter
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: > > On 12 Jun 2008, Pavel Sanda wrote: > > > > > > i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i > > > encountered, > > > please comment on: > > > > > > 1. Screen painting. > > > after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters > > > works in lyx > > > without problems. > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > Not here. I've set "language" to Greek and I've tried every available > > encoding, including utf8x, but the characters on-screen never change at > > all. And I've installed all the relevant font packages I can find. I'm > > using TexLive. > > no, no, this is misunderstanding. screen painting has _nothing_ to do with > with latex or utf8x encoding etc. it has something to do the way you have > set fonts for your X-windows. > > i don't know how things are done on debian, but in gentoo only installing > dejavu fonts was enough (the reconfiguration of X is part of instalation > procedure.) Do you have these fonts installed? > whats the output of: ls -l /usr/share/fonts/dejavu/ > > pavel Yes, I do have dejavu (ttf-dejavu) but I don't know how to tell lyx to use it - it doesn't appear as a choice. But I'm not sure that what I am trying to do is possible in Lyx (see my reply to Gunter below). Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
On 12 Jun 2008, G. Milde wrote: > > This is not about conversion but display: > > * If you paste polytonic Greek text from e.g. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics, this should show up in > greek letters with diacritics at the correct place. > > * If you input latin letters and ASCII-chars for diacritics following the > convention of the "greek" language option of babel and set the language > to "greek", these will be converted to greek letters in the output > only. > > This is the same level of support as for German, say where e.g. "a is > converted to ä in the output (but not in LyX). > > It differs from the handling of math symbols where a set of known > symbol-commands like \alpha or \int are rendered as symbols in LyX. > [snip] Yes, this was the conclusion I was coming to myself. A bit of background to all this: my wife is Greek and needs to type Greek occasionally; she is also a purist about accents etc. (Byzantine enthusiast). She is not happy seeing non-Greek characters on screen. After quite a lot of work I managed to get vim (gvim) to show Greek characters on-screen and to print Greek via Latex, but she can't do it without help from me because it requires a familiarity with Latex which she doesn't have. I was hoping things might be simpler with Lyx but seemingly not. Thanks for the Thessalonica suggestion; it may be a viable alternative. Anthony -- Anthony Campbell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Microsoft-free zone - Using Debian GNU/Linux http://www.acampbell.org.uk (blog, book reviews, and sceptical articles)
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
Question to the developers: Would it be possible to pass the tilde '~'
to LaTeX as-is if the language is set to polutonikogreek?
please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is wrong direction.
how will you determine nonbreak. space vs tilde accent then?
The same way as polutonikogreek.def: \nobreakspace vs. ~
before sinking into this issue i still don't understand why polutonikogreek
is needed, see below.
When you put tilde-accent into the command buffer and then strike the
desired key, tilde is not working for you?
It works in LyX but not in the printout.
yes i found this already ;(
tex output is then \~{character}.
which works well with (modern) greek but not with polutonikogreek.
i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered,
please comment on:
1. Screen painting.
after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in
lyx
without problems.
2. LaTeX typeseting.
after installing unicode packages for tex fonts and input encoding utf8x
the documents with ancient greek letters obtained in document via copy paste
from e.g. wikipedia or through symbols dialog in lyx 1.6 work without problems,
no switch to polutonikogreek needed, just greek language is enough.
3. Input of ancient greek letters into the document.
a) pasting the (whole) unicode character from outside works
b) using the keystroke of ~+char does not work - instead of accented character
we get two characters.
c) using lfun accent-tilde+char basically(*) works as far as screen painting
concerened,
but fails badly once you try to typeset the document.
the key issue is why 3c fails. guessing from the output the culprit is that when
accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce 'single' character but
it produces combined unicode character (i.e. accent char+normal char). iirc
this is correct
from the unicode point of view - single accented char is equivalent to
combining char + normal letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not
able to
decode the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
i see more ways how this could be fixed, but we should firstly agree that THIS
is the
culprit.
once 3c is fixed, 3b is easily fixable by adding shortcut for ~ - accent-tilde
call
(or even hard code ~ as a dead key).
pavel
(3c*) there are few minor issues how the 'combined' chars cause editing
problems inside
lyx - backspace key is not always able to delete accent char, one must put it
into selection
to get rid of it, there is also issue with source view panel for which i
already filed
new bug report (4946).
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
Pavel Sanda skrev: (or even hard code ~ as a dead key). On some keyboard layouts ~ is a dead key by default (danish for instance). My guess is that people, who wish to write greek, use such a keyboard layout (or changes to one). I wonder why tilde is a dead key on danish keyboards, we don't have any chars in our alphabet that use a tilde accent. I guess someone once thought that tilde would only be used for languages, where it is an accent, and then defaulted it to dead? Then that someone thought wrong, or the one who chose ~ for homedir shortcut chose wrong :) ã õ ñ -- Mvh Rune
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
Question to the developers: Would it be possible to pass the tilde '~'
to LaTeX as-is if the language is set to polutonikogreek?
please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is wrong direction.
how will you determine nonbreak. space vs tilde accent then?
The same way as polutonikogreek.def: \nobreakspace vs. ~
before sinking into this issue i still don't understand why polutonikogreek
is needed, see below.
When you put tilde-accent into the command buffer and then strike the
desired key, tilde is not working for you?
It works in LyX but not in the printout.
yes i found this already ;(
tex output is then \~{character}.
which works well with (modern) greek but not with polutonikogreek.
i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered,
please comment on:
1. Screen painting.
after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in
lyx
without problems.
2. LaTeX typeseting.
after installing unicode packages for tex fonts and input encoding utf8x
the documents with ancient greek letters obtained in document via copy paste
from e.g. wikipedia or through symbols dialog in lyx 1.6 work without problems,
no switch to polutonikogreek needed, just greek language is enough.
3. Input of ancient greek letters into the document.
a) pasting the (whole) unicode character from outside works
b) using the keystroke of ~+char does not work - instead of accented character
we get two characters.
c) using lfun accent-tilde+char basically(*) works as far as screen painting
concerened,
but fails badly once you try to typeset the document.
the key issue is why 3c fails. guessing from the output the culprit is that when
accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce 'single' character but
it produces combined unicode character (i.e. accent char+normal char). iirc
this is correct
from the unicode point of view - single accented char is equivalent to
combining char + normal letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not
able to
decode the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
i see more ways how this could be fixed, but we should firstly agree that THIS
is the
culprit.
once 3c is fixed, 3b is easily fixable by adding shortcut for ~ - accent-tilde
call
(or even hard code ~ as a dead key).
pavel
(3c*) there are few minor issues how the 'combined' chars cause editing
problems inside
lyx - backspace key is not always able to delete accent char, one must put it
into selection
to get rid of it, there is also issue with source view panel for which i
already filed
new bug report (4946).
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
Pavel Sanda skrev: (or even hard code ~ as a dead key). On some keyboard layouts ~ is a dead key by default (danish for instance). My guess is that people, who wish to write greek, use such a keyboard layout (or changes to one). I wonder why tilde is a dead key on danish keyboards, we don't have any chars in our alphabet that use a tilde accent. I guess someone once thought that tilde would only be used for languages, where it is an accent, and then defaulted it to dead? Then that someone thought wrong, or the one who chose ~ for homedir shortcut chose wrong :) ã õ ñ -- Mvh Rune
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
> > > Question to the developers: Would it be possible to pass the tilde '~'
> > > to LaTeX as-is if the language is set to polutonikogreek?
>
> > please correct me if i'm wrong, but i think this is wrong direction.
> > how will you determine nonbreak. space vs tilde accent then?
>
> The same way as polutonikogreek.def: \nobreakspace vs. ~
before sinking into this issue i still don't understand why polutonikogreek
is needed, see below.
> > When you put "tilde-accent" into the command buffer and then strike the
> > desired key, tilde is not working for you?
>
> It works in LyX but not in the printout.
yes i found this already ;(
>
> > tex output is then \~{character}.
>
> which works well with (modern) "greek" but not with "polutonikogreek".
i would like to summarize the my understanding of the problems i encountered,
please comment on:
1. Screen painting.
after installing unicode fonts for X displaying ancient greek letters works in
lyx
without problems.
2. LaTeX typeseting.
after installing unicode packages for tex fonts and input encoding utf8x
the documents with ancient greek letters obtained in document via copy & paste
from e.g. wikipedia or through symbols dialog in lyx 1.6 work without problems,
no switch to polutonikogreek needed, just greek language is enough.
3. Input of ancient greek letters into the document.
a) pasting the (whole) unicode character from outside works
b) using the keystroke of ~+char does not work - instead of accented character
we get two characters.
c) using lfun accent-tilde+char basically(*) works as far as screen painting
concerened,
but fails badly once you try to typeset the document.
the key issue is why 3c fails. guessing from the output the culprit is that when
accent-tilde is used with some char, it does not produce 'single' character but
it produces combined unicode character (i.e. accent char+normal char). iirc
this is correct
from the unicode point of view - single accented char is equivalent to
combining char + normal letter. this works on the screen, however utf8x is not
able to
decode the second case unless we use \unicodecombine macro in tex output.
i see more ways how this could be fixed, but we should firstly agree that THIS
is the
culprit.
once 3c is fixed, 3b is easily fixable by adding shortcut for ~ -> accent-tilde
call
(or even hard code ~ as a dead key).
pavel
(3c*) there are few minor issues how the 'combined' chars cause editing
problems inside
lyx - backspace key is not always able to delete accent char, one must put it
into selection
to get rid of it, there is also issue with source view panel for which i
already filed
new bug report (4946).
Re: greek fonts (summary?)
Pavel Sanda skrev: (or even hard code ~ as a dead key). On some keyboard layouts ~ is a dead key by default (danish for instance). My guess is that people, who wish to write greek, use such a keyboard layout (or changes to one). I wonder why tilde is a dead key on danish keyboards, we don't have any chars in our alphabet that use a tilde accent. I guess someone once thought that tilde would only be used for languages, where it is an accent, and then defaulted it to dead? Then that someone thought wrong, or the one who chose ~ for homedir shortcut chose wrong :) ã õ ñ -- Mvh Rune
