Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[Scott Granados]

Kawal, haha well said and for the record I’m on your side with this one.  To me 
though moderators are more like little power hungry DMV workers who have no 
control over their own lives so they have to force their wills where they can.  
(Kawal and folks over sees the DMV is the department of motor vehicles where 
you go to get your license or registration in the US). They are usually staffed 
by angry government workers who are in a position to take out on the rest of us 
all their stresses and inadequacies.  It’s like the little droids you see 
around who get handed a clipboard and all the sudden become the dictators of 
their personal spheres.  Ok I know an international example that everyone will 
get.  Remember the kid appointed hall monitor and goes all power hungry because 
someone gave him or her the authority to check hall passes.  Like I said I take 
my direction from the folks with the Harvard and Yale law degrees, not from 
people who get their information from alien shows on the history channel or 
make it up as they go along.  But hey, at least we’re not discussing the beta 
right?  You keep doing what you’re doing Kawal I love your posts, your 
perspective on things and I wouldn’t ever call you immature like some other 
alien lovers on list have.

Keep em coming
 
  



> On Aug 10, 2017, at 6:05 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> ET, for years the moderator's notes have not really change.  They are forever 
> telling someone off and so it is like a kid being naughty doing the same over 
> and over.  I'd rather laugh otherwise we'll all get in to a punch up as it 
> were.  Don't forget, what are we, people who don't really know each other and 
> no one knows us on these lists as no one knows what our lives are for what 
> it's worth I might be someone whose had a bad day you don't know so I need 
> something to make me laugh don't you think?  I've had a hard day's work and I 
> need a little light relief so you might as well remember that.  I'm not 
> stupid as I make out to be just trying to relax after a hard day's work.
> 
> Kawal.
>> On 10 Aug 2017, at 22:40, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  What I have found, and still find after all these years. amusing is how the 
>> "kids" show total lack of maturity. Kawal, you do not need to subject 
>> yourself to the whims of the moderators, just show yourself out. Doing so 
>> would prove your own maturity.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>> "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>> mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>> our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>> and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
>> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 8/10/2017 2:25 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>>> Sorry, but I find moderator's notes amusing.  You don't know how much I 
>>> laugh because little things turn in to big things.  I've not had such a 
>>> laugh for a long time on this list.  May be I'll get in to trouble, but at 
>>> this point, I am not too worried.
>>> 
>>> Cara sounds like the head mistress, Mark sounds like the naughty head 
>>> deputy who did a slight boo boo and Scott is like the kid who said 
>>> something to start this all off!  Like you do normally do Scott, always 
>>> gets caught out and gets in to trouble so he says 'sorry miss and Mr so so, 
>>> won't do it again' but you know it happens again and it catches the mods 
>>> out!  Oh such fun.
 On 10 Aug 2017, at 18:29, Cara Quinn  wrote:
 
 Hey Scott,
 
 Why are you saying this policy has to do with personal feelings when you 
 have not taken any time at all to get to know either me or Mark? You have 
 no idea what our personal feelings are on this.
 
 -Okay, to be fair, perhaps you have gotten to know Mark unbeknownst to me, 
 but I know you and I don’t really know each other. :)
 
 So please don’t stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. This 
 isn’t about our personal feelings.
 
 Anyway, for the record, I really couldn’t care less if we discuss beta 
 material or not, providing that public discussion is permitted in the user 
 agreement provided along with the software for the public beta program. 
 -And, for what it’s worth, I agree with you that as blind customers, we 
 really need to make our voices heard on issues that are important to us. I 
 just don’t believe that we should be breaking agreements to do it unless 
 that is absolutely our *only* available option.
 
 Since I am not a member of the public beta program, if someone would like 
 to post the agreement here or point me to it, I’ll be happy to take a look.
 
 If it says we can discuss it then we’ll simply change the policy. No 
 biggie.
 
 This is not some big personal thing, this is just a matter of a simple 
 user agreement. That’s all.
 
 Cheers!
 
 Cara
 
 ---
 iOS design 

Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

ET, for years the moderator's notes have not really change.  They are forever 
telling someone off and so it is like a kid being naughty doing the same over 
and over.  I'd rather laugh otherwise we'll all get in to a punch up as it 
were.  Don't forget, what are we, people who don't really know each other and 
no one knows us on these lists as no one knows what our lives are for what it's 
worth I might be someone whose had a bad day you don't know so I need something 
to make me laugh don't you think?  I've had a hard day's work and I need a 
little light relief so you might as well remember that.  I'm not stupid as I 
make out to be just trying to relax after a hard day's work.

Kawal.
> On 10 Aug 2017, at 22:40, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   What I have found, and still find after all these years. amusing is how the 
> "kids" show total lack of maturity. Kawal, you do not need to subject 
> yourself to the whims of the moderators, just show yourself out. Doing so 
> would prove your own maturity.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
>  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
>  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
>  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
>  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
> E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 8/10/2017 2:25 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:
>> Sorry, but I find moderator's notes amusing.  You don't know how much I 
>> laugh because little things turn in to big things.  I've not had such a 
>> laugh for a long time on this list.  May be I'll get in to trouble, but at 
>> this point, I am not too worried.
>> 
>> Cara sounds like the head mistress, Mark sounds like the naughty head deputy 
>> who did a slight boo boo and Scott is like the kid who said something to 
>> start this all off!  Like you do normally do Scott, always gets caught out 
>> and gets in to trouble so he says 'sorry miss and Mr so so, won't do it 
>> again' but you know it happens again and it catches the mods out!  Oh such 
>> fun.
>>> On 10 Aug 2017, at 18:29, Cara Quinn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hey Scott,
>>> 
>>> Why are you saying this policy has to do with personal feelings when you 
>>> have not taken any time at all to get to know either me or Mark? You have 
>>> no idea what our personal feelings are on this.
>>> 
>>> -Okay, to be fair, perhaps you have gotten to know Mark unbeknownst to me, 
>>> but I know you and I don’t really know each other. :)
>>> 
>>> So please don’t stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. This 
>>> isn’t about our personal feelings.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, for the record, I really couldn’t care less if we discuss beta 
>>> material or not, providing that public discussion is permitted in the user 
>>> agreement provided along with the software for the public beta program. 
>>> -And, for what it’s worth, I agree with you that as blind customers, we 
>>> really need to make our voices heard on issues that are important to us. I 
>>> just don’t believe that we should be breaking agreements to do it unless 
>>> that is absolutely our *only* available option.
>>> 
>>> Since I am not a member of the public beta program, if someone would like 
>>> to post the agreement here or point me to it, I’ll be happy to take a look.
>>> 
>>> If it says we can discuss it then we’ll simply change the policy. No biggie.
>>> 
>>> This is not some big personal thing, this is just a matter of a simple user 
>>> agreement. That’s all.
>>> 
>>> Cheers!
>>> 
>>> Cara
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
>>> ---
>>> View my Online Portfolio at:
>>> 
>>> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
>>> 
>>> Follow me on Twitter!
>>> 
>>> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
>>> 
>>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Scott Granados  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Why join a list when the rules are based in some arbitrary feeling that is 
>>> based on personal feelings rather than the law?
>>> 
>>> That’s just silly.
>>> 
>>> Counter to you, on any list I run feel free to discuss public anything as 
>>> much as you like.  Public betas to public flogging, doesn’t matter to me.  
>>> Nor does it matter to Apple, their legal teams or any boiler plate.
>>> 
>>> It’s fine if Mark wants no discussion on a topic but don’t represent 
>>> something that’s not true, it’s a personal decision not one based on 
>>> anything legal or even best practices.  Public anything is open for 
>>> discussion.  Developer betas are a different matter and nobody crossed that 
>>> line.
>>> 
>>> Sometimes it’ really hurts.
>>> 
>>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:33 AM, christopher hallsworth 
>>>  wrote:
 
 I am, and will still stand by mine and the group management thoughts on 
 this. Questions about either Developer or public betas should not be 
 allowed, in my opinion. Nough said. I do not allow such discussion on my 
 own general technology list, which, btw you are more than welcome to join. 
 

Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[E.T.]

   What I have found, and still find after all these years. amusing is 
how the "kids" show total lack of maturity. Kawal, you do not need to 
subject yourself to the whims of the moderators, just show yourself out. 
Doing so would prove your own maturity.


From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/10/2017 2:25 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu wrote:

Sorry, but I find moderator's notes amusing.  You don't know how much I laugh 
because little things turn in to big things.  I've not had such a laugh for a 
long time on this list.  May be I'll get in to trouble, but at this point, I am 
not too worried.

Cara sounds like the head mistress, Mark sounds like the naughty head deputy 
who did a slight boo boo and Scott is like the kid who said something to start 
this all off!  Like you do normally do Scott, always gets caught out and gets 
in to trouble so he says 'sorry miss and Mr so so, won't do it again' but you 
know it happens again and it catches the mods out!  Oh such fun.

On 10 Aug 2017, at 18:29, Cara Quinn  wrote:

Hey Scott,

Why are you saying this policy has to do with personal feelings when you have 
not taken any time at all to get to know either me or Mark? You have no idea 
what our personal feelings are on this.

-Okay, to be fair, perhaps you have gotten to know Mark unbeknownst to me, but 
I know you and I don’t really know each other. :)

So please don’t stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. This isn’t 
about our personal feelings.

Anyway, for the record, I really couldn’t care less if we discuss beta material 
or not, providing that public discussion is permitted in the user agreement 
provided along with the software for the public beta program. -And, for what 
it’s worth, I agree with you that as blind customers, we really need to make 
our voices heard on issues that are important to us. I just don’t believe that 
we should be breaking agreements to do it unless that is absolutely our *only* 
available option.

Since I am not a member of the public beta program, if someone would like to 
post the agreement here or point me to it, I’ll be happy to take a look.

If it says we can discuss it then we’ll simply change the policy. No biggie.

This is not some big personal thing, this is just a matter of a simple user 
agreement. That’s all.

Cheers!

Cara

---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Why join a list when the rules are based in some arbitrary feeling that is 
based on personal feelings rather than the law?

That’s just silly.

Counter to you, on any list I run feel free to discuss public anything as much 
as you like.  Public betas to public flogging, doesn’t matter to me.  Nor does 
it matter to Apple, their legal teams or any boiler plate.

It’s fine if Mark wants no discussion on a topic but don’t represent something 
that’s not true, it’s a personal decision not one based on anything legal or 
even best practices.  Public anything is open for discussion.  Developer betas 
are a different matter and nobody crossed that line.

Sometimes it’ really hurts.

On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:33 AM, christopher hallsworth  
wrote:


I am, and will still stand by mine and the group management thoughts on this. 
Questions about either Developer or public betas should not be allowed, in my 
opinion. Nough said. I do not allow such discussion on my own general 
technology list, which, btw you are more than welcome to join. Please ask off 
list so as to avoid clutter. Cheers!

On 10 Aug 2017, at 13:55, Ray Foret jr  wrote:

Not even public beta questions.  Why?  Simple.  It’s still beta and therefore, 
falls under Apple’s non disclosure agreement.
Sent from my Mac, The Only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
built-in

Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray,

Still a very happy Comcast XFinity Voice Guidance, Mac, Verizon Wireless 
iPhone7+ and Apple TV user!


On Aug 10, 2017, at 7:25 AM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:

Hi mark!
I am sorry for that one.
Not even public beta questions?
If not then i am very sorry to ask this here.
/A


10 aug. 2017 kl. 05:57 skrev M. Taylor :

Hello Anders,

Beta software questions are not for this list.

If you have beta software questions, you may request that list members contact 
you, off-list.  Please be sure to include your direct email address in the body 
of the post.

Thank you,

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Anders 

Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Sorry, but I find moderator's notes amusing.  You don't know how much I laugh 
because little things turn in to big things.  I've not had such a laugh for a 
long time on this list.  May be I'll get in to trouble, but at this point, I am 
not too worried.

Cara sounds like the head mistress, Mark sounds like the naughty head deputy 
who did a slight boo boo and Scott is like the kid who said something to start 
this all off!  Like you do normally do Scott, always gets caught out and gets 
in to trouble so he says 'sorry miss and Mr so so, won't do it again' but you 
know it happens again and it catches the mods out!  Oh such fun.
> On 10 Aug 2017, at 18:29, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Hey Scott,
> 
> Why are you saying this policy has to do with personal feelings when you have 
> not taken any time at all to get to know either me or Mark? You have no idea 
> what our personal feelings are on this.
> 
> -Okay, to be fair, perhaps you have gotten to know Mark unbeknownst to me, 
> but I know you and I don’t really know each other. :)
> 
> So please don’t stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. This 
> isn’t about our personal feelings.
> 
> Anyway, for the record, I really couldn’t care less if we discuss beta 
> material or not, providing that public discussion is permitted in the user 
> agreement provided along with the software for the public beta program. -And, 
> for what it’s worth, I agree with you that as blind customers, we really need 
> to make our voices heard on issues that are important to us. I just don’t 
> believe that we should be breaking agreements to do it unless that is 
> absolutely our *only* available option.
> 
> Since I am not a member of the public beta program, if someone would like to 
> post the agreement here or point me to it, I’ll be happy to take a look.
> 
> If it says we can discuss it then we’ll simply change the policy. No biggie.
> 
> This is not some big personal thing, this is just a matter of a simple user 
> agreement. That’s all.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> ---
> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
> ---
> View my Online Portfolio at:
> 
> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
> 
> Follow me on Twitter!
> 
> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
> 
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Why join a list when the rules are based in some arbitrary feeling that is 
> based on personal feelings rather than the law?
> 
> That’s just silly.
> 
> Counter to you, on any list I run feel free to discuss public anything as 
> much as you like.  Public betas to public flogging, doesn’t matter to me.  
> Nor does it matter to Apple, their legal teams or any boiler plate.
> 
> It’s fine if Mark wants no discussion on a topic but don’t represent 
> something that’s not true, it’s a personal decision not one based on anything 
> legal or even best practices.  Public anything is open for discussion.  
> Developer betas are a different matter and nobody crossed that line.
> 
> Sometimes it’ really hurts.
> 
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:33 AM, christopher hallsworth  
> wrote:
>> 
>> I am, and will still stand by mine and the group management thoughts on 
>> this. Questions about either Developer or public betas should not be 
>> allowed, in my opinion. Nough said. I do not allow such discussion on my own 
>> general technology list, which, btw you are more than welcome to join. 
>> Please ask off list so as to avoid clutter. Cheers!
>>> On 10 Aug 2017, at 13:55, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not even public beta questions.  Why?  Simple.  It’s still beta and 
>>> therefore, falls under Apple’s non disclosure agreement.  
>>> Sent from my Mac, The Only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>>> built-in
>>> 
>>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray,
>>> 
>>> Still a very happy Comcast XFinity Voice Guidance, Mac, Verizon Wireless 
>>> iPhone7+ and Apple TV user!
>>> 
 On Aug 10, 2017, at 7:25 AM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
 
 Hi mark!
 I am sorry for that one.
 Not even public beta questions?
 If not then i am very sorry to ask this here.
 /A
 
> 10 aug. 2017 kl. 05:57 skrev M. Taylor :
> 
> Hello Anders,
> 
> Beta software questions are not for this list.  
> 
> If you have beta software questions, you may request that list members 
> contact you, off-list.  Please be sure to include your direct email 
> address in the body of the post.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anders Holmberg
> Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 8:41 PM
> To: 'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries
> Subject: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.
> 
> Hi!
> For you who are testing the latest Ios 

Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[Cara Quinn]

Thanks ET.

Appreciate that.

Will read this over as soon as I can.

Have a great day!

Cheers!

Cara

---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Aug 10, 2017, at 2:59 PM, E.T.  wrote:

  Apple's public beta NDA agreement at the following link...



>From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
 "God for you is where you sweep away all the
 mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
 our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
 and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/10/2017 1:27 PM, Cara Quinn wrote:
> Hi Scott,
> 
> First off, I have not seen every post from Mark. I  can assure you though 
> that if he has inadvertently posted anything that was under beta, it was an 
> accident.
> 
> I’ve spoken with him and I trust him implicitly otherwise he would not be 
> moderating this list.
> 
> My understanding is that anything that has been posted here is not under NDA 
> so can be freely discussed.
> 
> If either I or Mark are wrong then please, by all means, point us to the post 
> in question. I am just asking that you do it off-list so we close this thread.
> 
> As far as your calling hypocrisy, though, and saying you can know my thoughts 
> / feelings with the limited knowledge you have of me, I will ask you simply, 
> what on earth have I done or said to you that basically makes you respond in 
> essence by either calling me a lier or a hypocrite every time I write 
> something in response to you, no matter how honest or matter-or-fact it is?
> 
> Scott, put simply, if you do not trust me or Mark, to the extent that you 
> feel that every time we respond to you, we are somehow not being honest then 
> why the hell are you still here? -And before you go shouting about this list 
> being some sort of power trip for me or Mark, if that were the case then one 
> of us would have simply removed you a long time ago.
> 
> We obviously haven’t. I was completely honest and straight-forward in my 
> response to you and I am honestly getting really tired of the same old 
> vitriol and pour-me stuff from your side.
> 
> there’s a lot that you say that I agree with and I think you have a whole lot 
> of knowledge and wisdom that you can and do share with this list.
> 
> So why the hell do you keep playing the whole downtrodden card?
> 
> You’re not downtrodden by any of the moderation. You say a lot of great 
> things here.
> 
> Just because I may not agree with every single thing you say does not mean I 
> do not respect you.
> 
> Whether or not you respect me on the other hand is your business.
> 
> I do wish you would stop the pettiness in your responses to me though. I 
> approached you with only honesty and plain english. -no name-calling or 
> sleights.
> 
> If you don’t respect me personally; fine, but please, if you honestly feel 
> that Mark and I in general, are being somehow underhanded with you, then 
> please just consider going elsewhere. I’m simply tired of your attitude no 
> matter how nice or respectful I attempt to be with you.
> 
> This is not a demand, this is simply a request because I have just simply had 
> enough of the BS.
> 
> So now, how much more honest would you like me to be?
> 
> Mark’s intentions have always been to be appropriate here on this list and he 
> holds himself very strongly to the same standards that he asks of anyone. I 
> have known him for many years and he exhibits tremendous character. So if he 
> has ever posted anything inappropriate you can be sure it was purely 
> accidental.
> 
> -And this is exactly what I am talking about. You should really get to know 
> someone before you speak out of turn about someone.
> 
> I know we all say things at times that are off, but rather than doubling down 
> on this sort of thing, why not actually attempt to listen to someone rather 
> than assume what you think they feel?
> 
> Anyway, my apologies for such a long note. Thanks for reading.
> 
> Consider it if you like; delete it if you want. -Either way is fine with me 
> at this point.
> 
> I wish you the best Scott, and have a great day.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> ---
> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
> ---
> View my Online Portfolio at:
> 
> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
> 
> Follow me on Twitter!
> 
> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
> 
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 11:53 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Yes it really is.  When mark posts tens of articles on IOS 11 which is still 
> in beta yet complains when Anders asks a legitimate question that impacts our 
> community there is something clearly wrong.  I don’t need to know you 
> personally to know your personal feelings, remember the phrase actions speak 
> louder than words.  The hypocrisy in this case speaks volumes.  It’s a total 
> case of do as 

Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[E.T.]

   Apple's public beta NDA agreement at the following link...



From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 8/10/2017 1:27 PM, Cara Quinn wrote:

Hi Scott,

First off, I have not seen every post from Mark. I  can assure you though that 
if he has inadvertently posted anything that was under beta, it was an accident.

I’ve spoken with him and I trust him implicitly otherwise he would not be 
moderating this list.

My understanding is that anything that has been posted here is not under NDA so 
can be freely discussed.

If either I or Mark are wrong then please, by all means, point us to the post 
in question. I am just asking that you do it off-list so we close this thread.

As far as your calling hypocrisy, though, and saying you can know my thoughts / 
feelings with the limited knowledge you have of me, I will ask you simply, what 
on earth have I done or said to you that basically makes you respond in essence 
by either calling me a lier or a hypocrite every time I write something in 
response to you, no matter how honest or matter-or-fact it is?

Scott, put simply, if you do not trust me or Mark, to the extent that you feel 
that every time we respond to you, we are somehow not being honest then why the 
hell are you still here? -And before you go shouting about this list being some 
sort of power trip for me or Mark, if that were the case then one of us would 
have simply removed you a long time ago.

We obviously haven’t. I was completely honest and straight-forward in my 
response to you and I am honestly getting really tired of the same old vitriol 
and pour-me stuff from your side.

there’s a lot that you say that I agree with and I think you have a whole lot 
of knowledge and wisdom that you can and do share with this list.

So why the hell do you keep playing the whole downtrodden card?

You’re not downtrodden by any of the moderation. You say a lot of great things 
here.

Just because I may not agree with every single thing you say does not mean I do 
not respect you.

Whether or not you respect me on the other hand is your business.

I do wish you would stop the pettiness in your responses to me though. I 
approached you with only honesty and plain english. -no name-calling or 
sleights.

If you don’t respect me personally; fine, but please, if you honestly feel that 
Mark and I in general, are being somehow underhanded with you, then please just 
consider going elsewhere. I’m simply tired of your attitude no matter how nice 
or respectful I attempt to be with you.

This is not a demand, this is simply a request because I have just simply had 
enough of the BS.

So now, how much more honest would you like me to be?

Mark’s intentions have always been to be appropriate here on this list and he 
holds himself very strongly to the same standards that he asks of anyone. I 
have known him for many years and he exhibits tremendous character. So if he 
has ever posted anything inappropriate you can be sure it was purely accidental.

-And this is exactly what I am talking about. You should really get to know 
someone before you speak out of turn about someone.

I know we all say things at times that are off, but rather than doubling down 
on this sort of thing, why not actually attempt to listen to someone rather 
than assume what you think they feel?

Anyway, my apologies for such a long note. Thanks for reading.

Consider it if you like; delete it if you want. -Either way is fine with me at 
this point.

I wish you the best Scott, and have a great day.

Cheers!

Cara

---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

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On Aug 10, 2017, at 11:53 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Yes it really is.  When mark posts tens of articles on IOS 11 which is still in 
beta yet complains when Anders asks a legitimate question that impacts our 
community there is something clearly wrong.  I don’t need to know you 
personally to know your personal feelings, remember the phrase actions speak 
louder than words.  The hypocrisy in this case speaks volumes.  It’s a total 
case of do as I say not as I do.

When dozens of sites post articles daily, some of which Mark himself has quoted 
on list about IOS betas and then pulls that crap with Anders it’s confusing at 
best and bad form.
No, I do not know you personally and no I don’t know Mark personally 
although I’ve talked to him a bit on list and so forth a bit more and have 
followed his postings since the mobile speak days but this sort of thing gives 
a bad impression.  I’ll withdraw the personal feelings aspect of the criticism 
if you feel it’s inaccurate but the 

Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[Cara Quinn]

Hi Scott,

First off, I have not seen every post from Mark. I  can assure you though that 
if he has inadvertently posted anything that was under beta, it was an accident.

I’ve spoken with him and I trust him implicitly otherwise he would not be 
moderating this list.

My understanding is that anything that has been posted here is not under NDA so 
can be freely discussed.

If either I or Mark are wrong then please, by all means, point us to the post 
in question. I am just asking that you do it off-list so we close this thread.

As far as your calling hypocrisy, though, and saying you can know my thoughts / 
feelings with the limited knowledge you have of me, I will ask you simply, what 
on earth have I done or said to you that basically makes you respond in essence 
by either calling me a lier or a hypocrite every time I write something in 
response to you, no matter how honest or matter-or-fact it is?

Scott, put simply, if you do not trust me or Mark, to the extent that you feel 
that every time we respond to you, we are somehow not being honest then why the 
hell are you still here? -And before you go shouting about this list being some 
sort of power trip for me or Mark, if that were the case then one of us would 
have simply removed you a long time ago.

We obviously haven’t. I was completely honest and straight-forward in my 
response to you and I am honestly getting really tired of the same old vitriol 
and pour-me stuff from your side.

there’s a lot that you say that I agree with and I think you have a whole lot 
of knowledge and wisdom that you can and do share with this list.

So why the hell do you keep playing the whole downtrodden card?

You’re not downtrodden by any of the moderation. You say a lot of great things 
here.

Just because I may not agree with every single thing you say does not mean I do 
not respect you.

Whether or not you respect me on the other hand is your business.

I do wish you would stop the pettiness in your responses to me though. I 
approached you with only honesty and plain english. -no name-calling or 
sleights.

If you don’t respect me personally; fine, but please, if you honestly feel that 
Mark and I in general, are being somehow underhanded with you, then please just 
consider going elsewhere. I’m simply tired of your attitude no matter how nice 
or respectful I attempt to be with you.

This is not a demand, this is simply a request because I have just simply had 
enough of the BS.

So now, how much more honest would you like me to be?

Mark’s intentions have always been to be appropriate here on this list and he 
holds himself very strongly to the same standards that he asks of anyone. I 
have known him for many years and he exhibits tremendous character. So if he 
has ever posted anything inappropriate you can be sure it was purely accidental.

-And this is exactly what I am talking about. You should really get to know 
someone before you speak out of turn about someone.

I know we all say things at times that are off, but rather than doubling down 
on this sort of thing, why not actually attempt to listen to someone rather 
than assume what you think they feel?

Anyway, my apologies for such a long note. Thanks for reading.

Consider it if you like; delete it if you want. -Either way is fine with me at 
this point.

I wish you the best Scott, and have a great day.

Cheers!

Cara

---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Aug 10, 2017, at 11:53 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Yes it really is.  When mark posts tens of articles on IOS 11 which is still in 
beta yet complains when Anders asks a legitimate question that impacts our 
community there is something clearly wrong.  I don’t need to know you 
personally to know your personal feelings, remember the phrase actions speak 
louder than words.  The hypocrisy in this case speaks volumes.  It’s a total 
case of do as I say not as I do.

When dozens of sites post articles daily, some of which Mark himself has quoted 
on list about IOS betas and then pulls that crap with Anders it’s confusing at 
best and bad form.
No, I do not know you personally and no I don’t know Mark personally 
although I’ve talked to him a bit on list and so forth a bit more and have 
followed his postings since the mobile speak days but this sort of thing gives 
a bad impression.  I’ll withdraw the personal feelings aspect of the criticism 
if you feel it’s inaccurate but the general thrust still stands and also to be 
accurate, this is the first time in probably a year I’ve heard you comment on 
moderation so my point was mainly directed at Mark as you hadn’t joined the 
thread.  
I talked to Anders about this on the side.  We were both under the 
impression that the prohibition against public beta discussion had been lifted 
a long time ago again do to 

Re: Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[Scott Granados]

Yes it really is.  When mark posts tens of articles on IOS 11 which is still in 
beta yet complains when Anders asks a legitimate question that impacts our 
community there is something clearly wrong.  I don’t need to know you 
personally to know your personal feelings, remember the phrase actions speak 
louder than words.  The hypocrisy in this case speaks volumes.  It’s a total 
case of do as I say not as I do.

When dozens of sites post articles daily, some of which Mark himself has quoted 
on list about IOS betas and then pulls that crap with Anders it’s confusing at 
best and bad form.
No, I do not know you personally and no I don’t know Mark personally 
although I’ve talked to him a bit on list and so forth a bit more and have 
followed his postings since the mobile speak days but this sort of thing gives 
a bad impression.  I’ll withdraw the personal feelings aspect of the criticism 
if you feel it’s inaccurate but the general thrust still stands and also to be 
accurate, this is the first time in probably a year I’ve heard you comment on 
moderation so my point was mainly directed at Mark as you hadn’t joined the 
thread.  
I talked to Anders about this on the side.  We were both under the 
impression that the prohibition against public beta discussion had been lifted 
a long time ago again do to Mark’s posting of these topics as well as my own, 
Kliph’s and many others that went unchallenged for a year now.  As I stated, 
it’s your list so by extension sort of your house and I'll comply because we’re 
guests in your domain but that doesn’t make it right, reasonable or justifiable.
I most definitely did not mean to personally attack you or Mark so any 
thoughts around personal feelings or characteristics I’ll gladly withdraw but 
as far as professionalism goes and the business of running the list Mark’s 
stifling of Anders point was unacceptable but unacceptable is the way it will 
be if you, mark and the other mods if they exist say so.

So, no discussion of betas unless the mods post articles on the betas because 
it’s do as I say not as I do.  Got it!

Very confusing and inconsistent

> On Aug 10, 2017, at 1:29 PM, Cara Quinn  wrote:
> 
> Hey Scott,
> 
> Why are you saying this policy has to do with personal feelings when you have 
> not taken any time at all to get to know either me or Mark? You have no idea 
> what our personal feelings are on this.
> 
> -Okay, to be fair, perhaps you have gotten to know Mark unbeknownst to me, 
> but I know you and I don’t really know each other. :)
> 
> So please don’t stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. This 
> isn’t about our personal feelings.
> 
> Anyway, for the record, I really couldn’t care less if we discuss beta 
> material or not, providing that public discussion is permitted in the user 
> agreement provided along with the software for the public beta program. -And, 
> for what it’s worth, I agree with you that as blind customers, we really need 
> to make our voices heard on issues that are important to us. I just don’t 
> believe that we should be breaking agreements to do it unless that is 
> absolutely our *only* available option.
> 
> Since I am not a member of the public beta program, if someone would like to 
> post the agreement here or point me to it, I’ll be happy to take a look.
> 
> If it says we can discuss it then we’ll simply change the policy. No biggie.
> 
> This is not some big personal thing, this is just a matter of a simple user 
> agreement. That’s all.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Cara
> 
> ---
> iOS design and development - LookTel.com
> ---
> View my Online Portfolio at:
> 
> http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn
> 
> Follow me on Twitter!
> 
> https://twitter.com/ModelCara
> 
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Why join a list when the rules are based in some arbitrary feeling that is 
> based on personal feelings rather than the law?
> 
> That’s just silly.
> 
> Counter to you, on any list I run feel free to discuss public anything as 
> much as you like.  Public betas to public flogging, doesn’t matter to me.  
> Nor does it matter to Apple, their legal teams or any boiler plate.
> 
> It’s fine if Mark wants no discussion on a topic but don’t represent 
> something that’s not true, it’s a personal decision not one based on anything 
> legal or even best practices.  Public anything is open for discussion.  
> Developer betas are a different matter and nobody crossed that line.
> 
> Sometimes it’ really hurts.
> 
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:33 AM, christopher hallsworth  
> wrote:
>> 
>> I am, and will still stand by mine and the group management thoughts on 
>> this. Questions about either Developer or public betas should not be 
>> allowed, in my opinion. Nough said. I do not allow such discussion on my own 
>> general technology list, which, btw you are more than welcome to join. 
>> 

Moderator Note -was- Re: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.

[Cara Quinn]

Hey Scott,

Why are you saying this policy has to do with personal feelings when you have 
not taken any time at all to get to know either me or Mark? You have no idea 
what our personal feelings are on this.

-Okay, to be fair, perhaps you have gotten to know Mark unbeknownst to me, but 
I know you and I don’t really know each other. :)

So please don’t stir the pot just for the sake of stirring the pot. This isn’t 
about our personal feelings.

Anyway, for the record, I really couldn’t care less if we discuss beta material 
or not, providing that public discussion is permitted in the user agreement 
provided along with the software for the public beta program. -And, for what 
it’s worth, I agree with you that as blind customers, we really need to make 
our voices heard on issues that are important to us. I just don’t believe that 
we should be breaking agreements to do it unless that is absolutely our *only* 
available option.

Since I am not a member of the public beta program, if someone would like to 
post the agreement here or point me to it, I’ll be happy to take a look.

If it says we can discuss it then we’ll simply change the policy. No biggie.

This is not some big personal thing, this is just a matter of a simple user 
agreement. That’s all.

Cheers!

Cara

---
iOS design and development - LookTel.com
---
View my Online Portfolio at:

http://www.onemodelplace.com/models/Cara-Quinn

Follow me on Twitter!

https://twitter.com/ModelCara

On Aug 10, 2017, at 8:24 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Why join a list when the rules are based in some arbitrary feeling that is 
based on personal feelings rather than the law?

That’s just silly.

Counter to you, on any list I run feel free to discuss public anything as much 
as you like.  Public betas to public flogging, doesn’t matter to me.  Nor does 
it matter to Apple, their legal teams or any boiler plate.

It’s fine if Mark wants no discussion on a topic but don’t represent something 
that’s not true, it’s a personal decision not one based on anything legal or 
even best practices.  Public anything is open for discussion.  Developer betas 
are a different matter and nobody crossed that line.

Sometimes it’ really hurts.

On Aug 10, 2017, at 9:33 AM, christopher hallsworth  
wrote:
> 
> I am, and will still stand by mine and the group management thoughts on this. 
> Questions about either Developer or public betas should not be allowed, in my 
> opinion. Nough said. I do not allow such discussion on my own general 
> technology list, which, btw you are more than welcome to join. Please ask off 
> list so as to avoid clutter. Cheers!
>> On 10 Aug 2017, at 13:55, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
>> 
>> Not even public beta questions.  Why?  Simple.  It’s still beta and 
>> therefore, falls under Apple’s non disclosure agreement.  
>> Sent from my Mac, The Only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>> built-in
>> 
>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray,
>> 
>> Still a very happy Comcast XFinity Voice Guidance, Mac, Verizon Wireless 
>> iPhone7+ and Apple TV user!
>> 
>>> On Aug 10, 2017, at 7:25 AM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi mark!
>>> I am sorry for that one.
>>> Not even public beta questions?
>>> If not then i am very sorry to ask this here.
>>> /A
>>> 
 10 aug. 2017 kl. 05:57 skrev M. Taylor :
 
 Hello Anders,
 
 Beta software questions are not for this list.  
 
 If you have beta software questions, you may request that list members 
 contact you, off-list.  Please be sure to include your direct email 
 address in the body of the post.
 
 Thank you,
 
 Mark
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anders Holmberg
 Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2017 8:41 PM
 To: 'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries
 Subject: Ios 11 beta and airplay and VoiceOver.
 
 Hi!
 For you who are testing the latest Ios 11 Public Beta i have a question 
 for you.
 If you’re using airplay, does VoiceOver follow the airplay audio so that 
 it comes through the airplay system instead of the Iphone speaker?
 I have this problem and can’t even use the audio routing feature so that 
 voiceover will stay on the iphone.
 I have reported this to apple.
 I have another problem where in controlcenter i cant select any airport 
 device which was possible in ios 10.
 /A
 
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