Re: [Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-28 Thread DW via Marxism 
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Evidently you haven't read Michael Robert's blog. There is a lot of
resistance obviously. I think there is capitalism in China but it doesn't
seem to be like the kind of capitalism that responds simply to market
pressures, stock dividends, or profitability. I find it odd that investment
there is not geared to solely toward profitability based on, what all
capitalism is today, speculation and moving paper around. But I would
challenge you Michael to show how this is simply warmed over Nasserism or
Peronism. It seems very different than that. If you think there is an
effective finance capitalist *class* I'd like to see it. China represents a
very strange bird though it's obviosuly a form of "capitalism" dusting off
a worn appellation like 'bonarpartism' (which is what you are doing) simply
isn't very helpful.

David

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 9:21 PM, mkaradjis .  wrote:

> "The capitalist class remains atomized socially and
> politically but are allowed to function well within the rules of capitalist
> accumulation all subordinated and "planned" by the state."
>
> With all due respect David, I have no idea how you wrote that, since
> you have often described your own visit to China some years back. If
> you didn't see copious and proud and boastful displays of unbridled
> wealth more or less everywhere, then I'd have to assume you were
> mistaken about which country you were visiting. Socially, the
> capitalist place is the opposite of atomised. Socially,they are all
> powerful, and this is celebrated in the state-owned media, and in the
> top rungs of the Chinese "Communist" Party. Politically, since the CCP
> opened its doors to the capitalist class around 2001, they've flooded
> into the party,and party members, leaders, governors etc have
> hurriedly and massively embraced this new directive to become leaders
> of the "advanced productive forces". Anthony's post just now about the
> numbers of billionnaires at the top of the party and state tell us
> just how politically non-atomised they are.
>
> Yes, a kind of state-directed capitalism, like Keynesianism, like
> fascism, like Nasserism/Peronism, like NICism etc. But a "state
> capitalist state" as some kind of new social formation? A tad
> unscientific I would think.
>
> Really, what is the big resistance still to recognising China as a
> capitalist state?
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 5:10 AM, DW via Marxism
>  wrote:
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> >
> > Anthony Boynton wrote:
> >
> > "Yes, there is some way that the state in China can be described other
> than
> > as a "capitalist state" or "deformed workers state": it is a "state
> > capitalist state"."
> >
> > Indeed...this my position as well. it is the only form of political
> economy
> > that makes any sense. The capitalist class remains atomized socially and
> > politically but are allowed to function well within the rules of
> capitalist
> > accumulation all subordinated and "planned" by the state. It's State
> > Capitalism come to life.
> >
> > David
> > _
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Re: [Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-27 Thread mkaradjis . via Marxism 
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"The capitalist class remains atomized socially and
politically but are allowed to function well within the rules of capitalist
accumulation all subordinated and "planned" by the state."

With all due respect David, I have no idea how you wrote that, since
you have often described your own visit to China some years back. If
you didn't see copious and proud and boastful displays of unbridled
wealth more or less everywhere, then I'd have to assume you were
mistaken about which country you were visiting. Socially, the
capitalist place is the opposite of atomised. Socially,they are all
powerful, and this is celebrated in the state-owned media, and in the
top rungs of the Chinese "Communist" Party. Politically, since the CCP
opened its doors to the capitalist class around 2001, they've flooded
into the party,and party members, leaders, governors etc have
hurriedly and massively embraced this new directive to become leaders
of the "advanced productive forces". Anthony's post just now about the
numbers of billionnaires at the top of the party and state tell us
just how politically non-atomised they are.

Yes, a kind of state-directed capitalism, like Keynesianism, like
fascism, like Nasserism/Peronism, like NICism etc. But a "state
capitalist state" as some kind of new social formation? A tad
unscientific I would think.

Really, what is the big resistance still to recognising China as a
capitalist state?

On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 5:10 AM, DW via Marxism
 wrote:
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> *
>
> Anthony Boynton wrote:
>
> "Yes, there is some way that the state in China can be described other than
> as a "capitalist state" or "deformed workers state": it is a "state
> capitalist state"."
>
> Indeed...this my position as well. it is the only form of political economy
> that makes any sense. The capitalist class remains atomized socially and
> politically but are allowed to function well within the rules of capitalist
> accumulation all subordinated and "planned" by the state. It's State
> Capitalism come to life.
>
> David
> _
> Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm
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Re: [Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-27 Thread Gregory Adler via Marxism 
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On 27 Oct 2017 3:47 PM, "RKOB via Marxism" 
wrote:

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>
> In general, I consider Michael Roberts to be an excellent economist,
> producing a lot of useful and serious material. But on China, he clearly
> wrong. China is not a deformed workers state but an emerging imperialist
> power.
>
> I fear Michael Roberts is (consciously or unconsciously) trapped by his
> old Grantite myth which derived the class character of a state from the
> ideology of the leading party. This is why Ted Grant saw "proletarian
> Bonapartism" (and hence "deformed workers state") all around the world
> including in Syria, Ethiopia, Burma or Yemen.
>
> Those interested in an overview of China's capitalist economy including
> current figures can take a look at chapter 4 of a recently published
> pamphlet by Michael Pröbsting: The China-India Conflict (IV. China as an
> Emerging Great Imperialist Power), https://www.thecommunists.net/
> theory/china-india-rivalry/chapter-4/
>
>
>
> Am 26.10.2017 um 16:29 schrieb Andrew Pollack via Marxism:
>
>>   POSTING RULES & NOTES  
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>>
>> I agree with David about the seriousness of Michael's analysis. My gut
>> reaction is to disagree with his conclusion, but when I feel the need to
>> intervene in a discussion on the topic I'll sure as shootin' start with
>> Michael's article (with Richard Smith as counterpoint).
>>
>> p.s. On the bureaucracy itself, see this new interview with Au Loongyu:
>> http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article5211
>>
>> As for the Grantites' historical method, here's a glaring example:
>> https://www.marxists.org/archive/grant/1978/07/colrev.htm
>> _
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Re: [Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-27 Thread RKOB via Marxism 

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There can be no doubt that there exist a strong state-capitalist sector 
in China. As we know this is not so exceptional in the history of 
capitalism and has been also the case in other countries in the past 
(e.g. France, Sweden, Austria).


It is however wrong to characterize China as a state-capitalist system 
as somewhat different to a capitalist state. Don't forget that more than 
70% of China's national output is produced by non-state companies.


It is also mistaken to see the capitalist class in China as weak and 
atomized. They have strong connections to the political leadership. And 
China is the country with the biggest or second-biggest (according to 
different studies) number of billionaires in the world.


I refer again to the various studies and documents which we have 
published and in which you can find a number of figures and sources on 
these issues.


They are collected here: 
https://www.thecommunists.net/theory/china-russia-as-imperialist-powers/





Am 27.10.2017 um 20:10 schrieb DW via Marxism:

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Anthony Boynton wrote:

"Yes, there is some way that the state in China can be described other than
as a "capitalist state" or "deformed workers state": it is a "state
capitalist state"."

Indeed...this my position as well. it is the only form of political economy
that makes any sense. The capitalist class remains atomized socially and
politically but are allowed to function well within the rules of capitalist
accumulation all subordinated and "planned" by the state. It's State
Capitalism come to life.

David
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[Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-27 Thread DW via Marxism 
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Anthony Boynton wrote:

"Yes, there is some way that the state in China can be described other than
as a "capitalist state" or "deformed workers state": it is a "state
capitalist state"."

Indeed...this my position as well. it is the only form of political economy
that makes any sense. The capitalist class remains atomized socially and
politically but are allowed to function well within the rules of capitalist
accumulation all subordinated and "planned" by the state. It's State
Capitalism come to life.

David
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[Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-27 Thread Anthony Boynton via Marxism 
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Tristan Sloughter wrote, "He (Michael Roberts) doesn't say it is a deformed
workers state, does he? He only argues that the main production (in China)
is not based on capitalist laws. There must be some way he can describe
such an autocratic state besides a capitalist state or a deformed workers
state?"

Yes, there is some way that the state in China can be described other than
as a "capitalist state" or "deformed workers state": it is a "state
capitalist state".

Anthony
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Re: [Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-27 Thread Louis Proyect via Marxism 

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On 10/27/17 10:35 AM, Tristan Sloughter via Marxism wrote:

He only argues
that the main production is not based on capitalist laws.


I might write something about this if I find the time. The SOE's in 
China complement the privately owned enterprises since they are natural 
monopolies like airlines, banks, utilities, etc.


There are some useful statistics here:
http://www.australiachinarelations.org/content/china%E2%80%99s-economy-state-versus-private#_ftn1
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Re: [Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-27 Thread Tristan Sloughter via Marxism 
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> In general, I consider Michael Roberts to be an excellent economist, 
> producing a lot of useful and serious material. But on China, he clearly 
> wrong. China is not a deformed workers state but an emerging imperialist 
> power.

He doesn't say it is a deformed workers state, does he? He only argues
that the main production is not based on capitalist laws. There must be
some way he can describe such an autocratic state besides a capitalist
state or a deformed workers state?
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[Marxism] On China and Michael Roberts

2017-10-26 Thread RKOB via Marxism 

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In general, I consider Michael Roberts to be an excellent economist, 
producing a lot of useful and serious material. But on China, he clearly 
wrong. China is not a deformed workers state but an emerging imperialist 
power.


I fear Michael Roberts is (consciously or unconsciously) trapped by his 
old Grantite myth which derived the class character of a state from the 
ideology of the leading party. This is why Ted Grant saw "proletarian 
Bonapartism" (and hence "deformed workers state") all around the world 
including in Syria, Ethiopia, Burma or Yemen.


Those interested in an overview of China's capitalist economy including 
current figures can take a look at chapter 4 of a recently published 
pamphlet by Michael Pröbsting: The China-India Conflict (IV. China as an 
Emerging Great Imperialist Power), 
https://www.thecommunists.net/theory/china-india-rivalry/chapter-4/




Am 26.10.2017 um 16:29 schrieb Andrew Pollack via Marxism:

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I agree with David about the seriousness of Michael's analysis. My gut
reaction is to disagree with his conclusion, but when I feel the need to
intervene in a discussion on the topic I'll sure as shootin' start with
Michael's article (with Richard Smith as counterpoint).

p.s. On the bureaucracy itself, see this new interview with Au Loongyu:
http://internationalviewpoint.org/spip.php?article5211

As for the Grantites' historical method, here's a glaring example:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/grant/1978/07/colrev.htm
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