Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == As one of the ballistics, I have no intention of making any additional comments on this matter. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com .net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Visa, Mastercard and PayPal's funding Illegal Israeli Settlements? Priceless.
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks. I feel so much better now. - Original Message - From: Dennis Brasky dmozart1...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Precisely - at least you're not going senile! Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Islamophobia and France's NPA
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Not hard at all. Ask Dan. But I would point out that these people are not being persecuted for their religious idiocy, as their religious idiocy is no greater than any other religious idiot's. They are being persecuted as part of the ongoing social oppression that has been inflicted on these people, practicing this religion, from those areas every since colonial times, and because of their status of migrants from those colonies. That's why I wish this childish posturing about Marxist being anti-religious would just stop. This issue has nothing to do with religion, really. It has everything to do with the history of colonialism and the marginalization, discrimination practiced in order to secure accumulation. - Original Message - From: Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com To= Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] re : Islamophobia and France's NPA
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't think people are dumb and immature. I think you're acting in a dumb and immature fashion... which by the way you have just exhibited again by ignoring the real social content of the issue.. making it an issue of authority, God, Hegel (?) blahblahblahblahblah. Libertarian Marxists hold what? That to become emancipated all authoritarian dimensions of a belief in a divine presence must be extirpated? Hey, maybe you're right, Dan. Maybe I as an authoritarian Marxist think some people, libertarian Marxists, really are dumb and immature. As any real Marxist knows, emancipation is a social project, involving the creation of the material conditions supporting the social relation of a free association of laborers . This has nothing to with an individual requirements for personal emancipation. - Original Message - From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 10:31 PM Subject: [Marxism] re : Islamophobia and France's NPA .net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] re : Islamophobia and France's NP
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Right paternalistic slaveholder because I oppose the French government's attempt to stigmatize women who wear the head scarf. Like I said, you make shit up. - Original Message - From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] The Right of Nazi-ons to Self-Determination
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Report: KLA behind deadly human kidney trade JAMEY KEATEN From Associated Press December 14, 2010 9:26 PM EST PARIS (AP) - Civilians detained by the Kosovo Liberation Army were allegedly shot to death in northern Albania so their kidneys could be extracted and sold on the black market after the war in Kosovo ended in 1999, according to a report prepared for Europe's premier human rights watchdog. The report by Council of Europe investigator Dick Marty - more than two years in the making - also suggested Kosovo's U.S.-backed prime minister was once the boss of a criminal underworld behind the alleged grisly trade. Kosovo's government branded the report as baseless and described it as an attempt to tarnish the image of the Kosovo Liberation Army. In a statement, the government also accused Marty of bias and fabrications. Marty, a Swiss senator, led a Council of Europe team of investigators to Kosovo and Albania in 2009, following allegations of organ trafficking by the KLA published in a book by former U.N. War Crimes tribunal prosecutor Carla Del Ponte. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Does Liu Xiaobo Really Deserve the Peace Prize?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't mean to rain on anybody's parade, but WTF? Who cares who wins the Nobel Peace or any other Prize? Friedman won one, didn't he, in some category-- was it platform diving, or death squad macro-economics? I forget. This is all about whichever darling is the darlingest of the capitalists' darlings at the given moment. It's all a spectacle. It's supposed to be entertainment. And to us, it's just one more endowment designed to keep graveyard capitalism from dissolving into a pool of its own rot. What the CPC leadership is upset? Liu Xiaobo admires British colonialism? Fantastic. They deserve each other. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] So Much for Left Wing Solidarity in South America
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == And the working people of Britain knew that the Labor Party was their party. They knew it stood for them and against all those public school bastards with the posh accents. They knew all of that didn't they? Until they didn't know it anymore. And do I think Lula is the equivalent of a Wilson or a Callahan? You bet. - Original Message - From: Thomas Bias bia...@embarqmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Does Liu Xiaobo Really Deserve the Peace Prize?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't give a damn about his Nobel-- MLK marched with the sanitation workers of Memphis-- anybody who knows anything about Memphis and the legacy of Boss Crump knows that puts MLK on the working class side of the dividing line. Mandela went to the ruling class side of the dividing line. Nothing says MLK was a Lenin or a Trotsky-- and I'm more than OK with that. But he stands miles taller than Mandela. Nelson that is. - Original Message - From: Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Nader is losing it
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Nader's piece reeks of respectful, objective, admiration. I find nothing admirable in this guy Bloomberg, and the only thing he's capable of, is making sure the deterioration in the city becomes an approved business model for other cities. - Original Message - From: Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Obama Isn't Spineless, He's Conservative
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Heaven forbid we should merge politics and logic, that would be so unlike Marx-- I'm not making any judgement based on the morality of any particular capitalist's actions, which is why I don't find any difference between a Madoff or a Buffett-- other than the circumstantial difference of how each functions as a necessary part of the whole of capitalist accumulation. Bush was stupid, and he was intelligent enough not give a rat's ass what anyone thought of his intelligence. Bush was principled, and he was a belligerent and bold liar, and a facilitator of fraud, theft. Obama's no different. His loyalty to his class does not mean he isn't a spineless liar. Marx certainly never shrank from calling out any particular representative of the bourgeoisie for being stupid, devious, ignorant, vicious, and thus being a perfect representative for that class. Next, you'll be telling me that Milton Friedman really was an advocate of freedom; that he was consistent in his arguments; that he was a principled man. - Original Message - From: Carrol Cox cb...@ilstu.edu Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] More Facts (Dirt) on Anna Ardin and how She Destroyed Assange Case Evidence Over And Over Again
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's slick. Thorstad's on the right track-- meaning this is a case of feminism run amok-- but the heart of the question is that there is no case against Assange-- thereby assuming what must be proven, that feminism has anything to do with the case against Assange. And then rather than going at what really is the heart of the question-- which is the revenge pursuit of Assange by the bourgeoisie, we get into the absurdities of the charges against Assange, as if the absurdities is proof of feminism at work. Thereby again proving what is already assumed that feminism is always, eternally amok. What a bunch of shit-- pure, unadulterated, ignorant, shit. It's male chauvinism run amok, that's what it is. Piss off, fellas. Your making a mess of the floor. - Original Message - From: Fred Feldman ffeld...@bellatlantic.net To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Ignorance is Bliss
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Words written to be eaten From the Financial Times December 9: Germany: A 'real economy insulated from the banks' suffering ...Loan loss provisions for banks have stayed low considering the depth of the 2009 recession... German banks do not face the balance-sheet woes of, say, their Irish or Spanish peers. Some have sizeable foreign property exposure but the Bundesbank believes the amounts at stake are manageable... Wanna bet? German banks have euro 570 billion exposure to the corporate non-financial debt, the sovereign debt, and the bank debt of Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Spain, and Greece. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Flash: Royal convoy attacked as English students revolt
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == God save the Queen She aint no human being There is no future In England's dreaming! --Sex Pistols They'll be rockin' in the projects Walkin' down along the strand Freddy get ready Rock steady And Johnny strikes the band --Warren Zevon All hail then to the mob, the incarnation of progress. --James Connolly We want our money back! Fan-f**king-tastic! Wish I were there when those Johnnies, that mob of progess incarnate, strike up that band. I may be old, but I'm still pretty fast. - Original Message - From: Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 5:46 PM Subject: [Marxism] Flash: Royal convoy attacked as English students revolt Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A letter from a spurned lover
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Have you been paying attention at all to what's been happening over the past 3, or 30 years, Peggy? There isn't going to be a more socialist administration or congress, much less more socialist administration AND congress. In fact there isn't now, nor has there ever been an administration or congress that was even the teeniest bit socialist... unless you're taking the word of the the John Birch Society, the Cato Institute, and the Chicago Boys. This praying for the Messiah that never comes-- the liberal democrat riding on a white ass, or with a white ass, I forget which is the proper biblical allusion, is like a flying saucer cult-- or maybe the lost children in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome... telling there little story of exodus, loss, and not being slack. The only reason Rove's pick is going to win is because capitalism requires it to carry out its program of impoverishment-- just as that capitalism required Obama to do what he did-- carry out the Bush program in all essential facets but by another name. Now that he's done that, disoriented and confused those disoriented and confused types who were sucker enough to believe Yes, he could-- adios Barack, maybe you and Jimmy Carter can build little houses for dispossessed people-- there are certainly going to be many more of those dispossessed and very soon. - Original Message - From: Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] My employer reverses itself on Wikileaks
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Author of the very good Growth Against Development: The Economic Impact of Railroads in Porfirian Mexico? - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Now SIPA's Dean, John H. Coatsworth, is reversing the advice issued to students last week, reaffirming the school's commitment to freedom of speech. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Guardian Headline -Surprise - Not
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Oh, they definitely want to get rid of him. He served his purpose, and now it's time to go. Why? For the same reason they wanted to get rid of Gordon Brown: it's time to smack the shit out of the working class, and with such force that it will make Maggie, Attila the Hen, Thatcher, Paul Volcker, and the Chicago Boys look like Cub Scouts helping the elderly across the street. Look, what was going on during the Clinton upswing? Everybody else was smacking the shit out of its working class-- Russia, Brazil, Bolivia, Korea, Thailand, Taiwan, Japan, all that economic shock and awe--- remember the Asian Crisis, and those pricks Greenspan and Stanley Fisher smirking about how the market was simply correcting those excesses while US businesses bought assets at incredible discounts? Well guess what? Now the chickens are home and they need a place to roost, and smirking time is over. So what was done in Asia with 10s of millions losing their jobs [a crisis from which Asia --excluding China which was not subject the whipsaw capital flows-- has never fully recovered] has to done here, and with more than a vengeance. Obama can't rally that type of madness, and viciousness. It takes a good old white boy to do that-- somebody who makes Cheney look like Jonas Salk. - Original Message - From: Gary MacLennan gary.maclenn...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2010 12:40 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Guardian Headline -Surprise - Not Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fed Explains...
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't know... I've been hearing about this trend for 35 years... ever since the EU was going to supplant the US in the 70s, and then Japan was going to do it in the 80s... and then, and then.. and then... As a matter of fact, I've been hearing about this trend almost as long as I've been hearing about that other trend... peak oil. So I keep asking, when is it actually going to rain out there, as opposed to announcements that the forecast is for rain, and it's time to stock up on ponchos, umbrellas, and waterproofing? As for China. China was unaffected? By what? The economic contraction? Are you kidding me? I don't call the closing of thousands, literally, of factories in the Guangdong unaffected; I don't call doubling your total amount of loans in a single year unaffected. You might as well be telling me that Russia was unaffected bcause none of its banks received loans from the Fed. So what's the trend? For the [crumbling] Euro to replace the [shaky] dollar? For the yen [hah!]? For the yuan? I don't think you get it, Marv, NOBODY wants to replace the dollar. The EU does not want the euro to replace the dollar; the Japanese dread the appreciation of the yen and its relative strength; the Chinese want to maintain their dollar peg, thereby reaping an advantage over their Asian competitors and within the European market, which is its largest export market. The US economy is certainly shaky, of course, but there isn't a single capitalism that isn't shaky, including China, Brazil, India, Russia, Europe, Japan, Thailand, South Korea. And in terms of class struggle, the US is the safe haven. And the bottom line is that the superior ability to contain, throttle class stuggle is exactly that, the bottom line. So tell me, where in whatever trends supposedly exist, do the bourgeoisie find their vehicle, their pump for keeping air in the balloon? Where is there something somewhere able to undertake what the Fed undertook? Keep in mind, before we get the China reflex response, that China's central bank did NOT even extend significant resources in China's own stimulus program. - Original Message - From: Marv Gandall marvg...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Assange: Australia has abandoned me
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Naive, no? - Original Message - From: Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Assange: Australia has abandoned me
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I mean it's not like there isn't lots of evidence of Australia towing the US line in the past, sacrificing its democracy to ensure good relations with the US. I do think making this a question of his rights as an Australian citizen can confuse some people over what, IMO, is the central issue: - which is the political struggle, the class conflict at the heart of US actions, at the heart of the US diplomatic cables, the nature of capitalism generating war, deceit, destruction, distortion, as part of its everyday reproduction. It's like making the arrest of anti-war activists an issue of free-speech, or civil liberties rather than manifestations of a social conflict. Look, he didn't leak all these documents because he agrees with US policy. The US isn't after him because he leaked documents-- there after him because of the content of the documents. There's nothing wrong, and everything right with defense of Wikileaks and against the Australian government, but attempts to build pressure on the Australian government to protect Assange's democratic rights as a citizen risk canalizing the conflict into one of due process into one of form, rather than one of content, opposition to power. Now that being said-- I have already contributed to his defense fund... and will distribute as many of the documents as I can if the site gets taken down. - Original Message - From: Stuart Munckton stuartmunck...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Support /any/ struggle of the oppressed: a question whichI feel is scathing.
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Let's keep that in mind when it comes to endorsing spontaneous manifestations of national salvation, or spontaneous rallying to the support of threatened national leaders like Correa. - Original Message - From: Néstor Gorojovsky nmg...@gmail.com I am speaking of _political_ options, that is different societal projects in struggle. Would you bet that /every/ oppressed group has /always/ been clear as to the aim of their struggles? If yes, then why political discussion at all. Let´s allow the omniscient masses do history in spontaneity. If not, then not every struggle by any oppressed group deserves support. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Swedish trolls and sex by surprise
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Every time I have sex I'm surprised. I mean, somebody actually wants to sleep with me? And all this time, I never knew I was Swedish. - Original Message - From: David Thorstad bin...@gvtel.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Fed Explains Consensual Surprise Sex Date Rape
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The Fed has released the details of all its transactions/programs to combat the great meltdown. It's worth a close look in that a) the Fed unleashes a flow of about $3.3 trillion into the economy, and not just the US economy, but the international capitalist economy and b) the Fed's actions underpin central banks in Europe and Asia, as well as commercial banks. So... so right before the meltdown, and again recently, many talk about the US being replaced by... China, or China + Brazil, or BRIC, or BRIC + EU. This newly released information shows how central, how primary, the US remains to the functioning of capitalism globally. Does anyone think Brazil, China, Russia, the EU-- or any combination thereof-- not only has the resources, but would accept the responsibility for keeping this entire house of cards from collapsing? http://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/reform_transaction.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A comment by Diana Johnstone on A Serbian film, Croats and Muslims, and the left
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What a trip: Everyone, ok maybe not everyone, but many of those who disagree with the moderator are demonstrating nothing but character flaws. 1. Karadjis-- numerous such flaws as the esteemed moderator has listed 2. Fidler-- ex-leader of Canadian Trotskyists, that's one flaw. Former regular contributor to Marxmail [might have been a flaw--my conclusion]. Current lurker [probably a flaw]. 3. Yours truly-- Bordigaist, aufhebenist, Goldnerite, and grand inquisitor of those betraying sectarian orthodoxy. 4. Tom Cod-- personal sentimentalist and anecdotist. Fantastic-- that way there's need to ever deal directly with the content of issues-- because it's obvious there is no content, there's just personality flaws. Of course the moderator's type of discourse, this ad hominem bullshit as Richard Fidler correctly calls it is not evidence of any such character flaws, not to mention personality disorder. Do us a favor as they say in the UK. Just do us a big fat favor - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Moderator's note
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Here's what I get when I follow the links and try to search: Not Found The requested URL /cgi-bin/estseek.cgi was not found on this server. Apache/1.3.33 Server at archives.econ.utah.edu Port 80 - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] re : Voline, Mahkno, and the Bolshevik
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I didn't know you were channelling Woody Allen. That makes ever so much difference. If I were you Woody, and I'm ever so glad I'm not, I would never have broken up with Louise Lasser. You were never funnier. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Inequality on the Diamond
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Let's be careful. We're talking about the New York Yankees, not some jerkwater team headquartered in Queens, owned by that upstart Wilpon family. Since when is $15 million a year enough for somebody who made $21.7 million last year? Huh? Where's your belief in due process? In the old meritocracy? In tax free bonds issued by the city to support the construction of a private stadium? Goddamit, Jeter belongs in the Hall of Fame, and so does the Dead Boss, despite having been suspended from baseball twice. Hell yes, Jeter deserves more money. He pays some taxes in NYC, I think. Not sure, actually. Jeter's no hedge fund manager. No banker. No flim-flam asset backed security synthetic debt obligation CoCo bond hack. He's a shortstop for the winningnest franchise ever-- the team with the most championships. He works very had, 200 days out of every year, including Spring training, and the post-season, which the Yankees were eliminated from in the second round. He even gets dirty when he works! How can anyone doubt that Jeter is entitled to more? Look at A-Rod! And AJ Burnett. And CC. Look at P. Diddy. Jay-Z. Lady Ga-Ga. Madonna. Bono. Money. Now that's entertainment. The whole thing's enough to make you puke. And I say that as a long-time Yankee fan. I think I'll become an Oakland A's fan-- low payrolls, good pitching. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Of Perhaps Some Small Interest
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == And speaking of German debt: WSJ of 11/30 published a breakdown of German bank exposure to the debt of the EU core; the EU PIIGS [Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain], and other EU countries in THREE sectors: debt of other banks, sovereign debt, corporate debt; So for German banks in the PIIGS Category: exposure to debt of other banks: euro 180 billion [out of a total exposure to debt of other EU banks of euro 405 billion] exposure to debt of corporations: euro 200 billion [out of a total exposure EU corporate debt of euro 460 billion] exposure to sovereign debt: euro 90 billion [total EU exposure euro 121 billion]. Half a trillion here, half a trillion there, pretty soon you're talking about unreal money. - Original Message - From: Vladimiro Giacche' md1...@mclink.it Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Washington considers espionage charges against Assange
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Wait a minute... what does any of that matter? What matters are the documents, the content of the documents. - Original Message - From: MARGARET WYLES kaliy...@wildblue.net To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Washington considers espionage charges against Assange Okay, now I'm irritated. I never said anything about a conspiracy. I merely said I'm not sure I buy completely the official story because some things don't add up to me. I don't throw out my common sense and reasoning power when I read something in the paper - mainstream or otherwise. Have we not had enough experience with blatant lies to at least question what is served up to us without being labeled (and therefore dismissed) as a 'conspiracy theorist.' Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Washington considers espionage charges against Assange
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's like saying Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers to get a date with Jane Fonda. OK, it's not like saying THAT, but it's like saying something maybe a little like that. Here's what I think is the bigger issue: in the scheme of things these leaks don't count for much. The Pentagon Papers counted because the US had lost control of the battlefield. Here losing control of the battlefield, the carnage inflicted throughout the society, barely registers. Nobody's outraged who wasn't outraged before. Nobody's disgusted who wasn't disgusted before. Why is that? A: Because there is no draft B: Because everybody already knows that the lies are lies, torture is torture, etc. and one side thinks all of that is justified, or at the very worst, the few broken eggs needed to make the omelet. The other side-- the liberal conscience to which the exposures are supposed to appeal is... well, besides being an oxymoron, besides being conspicuous only in its absence, is simply powerless in the face of the machinery it helped create. This whole drama has been turned into another spectacular presentation of sound and fury signifying less than nothing. - Original Message - From: Jeffrey Thomas Piercy sn...@mqduck.net To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Washington considers espionage charges against Assange Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] an asshole economist chimes in on how to get the economy going
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == It was already time to do that in 1973, when the Chicago Boys turned Chile into their personal laboratory for evisceration of any and all forms of social progress. - Original Message - On 11/28/10 2:05 PM, MICHAEL YATES wrote: Is it time to take all neoclassical economists into the woods and shoot them? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Irish bailout and the necessity for the United Socialist States of Europe
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Don't think To the barricades really captures the content of the struggle right now-- but targeting the debt, the bailout, and the exploiters' common market just might. Beats the fuck out of Vote Sinn Fein. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] China extends development success abroad,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't know that we can say coal has screwed up China's railroads, as if the railroads would be in tip top shape if only China used nuclear power. It's kind of like saying how rush hour screws up commuter service because we build to a certain theoretical capacity, and then do everything we can to exceed that capacity, and there are so many passengers we have to run too many trains at once, and then the dwell times at stations as they load/unload exceeds the scheduled estimate, and then people get sick on the trains... and dammit, these trains would run so much better if we just didn't have to stop at stations and pick up/discharge passengers.. Like yeah... but that's why we build railroads in the first place. Congestion is rarely just the result of too much traffic. It's usually the result of increases in traffic over an outmoded physical plant. Or it can be the result of just good old fashioned stupidity. Once upon a time a very big railroad, the Union Pacific, decided to get a lot bigger and took over the Southern Pacific, Missouri Pacific and Western Pacific railroads-- and because UP had the money and did the buying, it decided to close lines and yards that paralleled its existing lines and yards; decided to make other lines and yards uni-directional only accepting or dispatching freight in one direction; laid-off supervisors and officers from the other railroads because, as we all know, money is knowledge. And what happened? This very big railroad brought itself to a complete standstill and very nearly shut down the entire national rail network. The point being that coal is dirty and dangerous, but it really can't be blamed for the condition of railroads in so far as it provides (probably) about 20% of the revenues. If shipping coal by rail in China during winter is unreliable, then shipping anything by rail, including people, in winter is unreliable in China, and the problem is with the railroad, not the commodity. - Original Message - From: DW dwalters...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] China extends development success abroad, Secondly, is coal use in China. I believe from reading a variety of literature in the energy field, that the sitation is more complex than even this very detainled NYT article implies. For example, it correctly states that half of all rail traffic in China is for coal. We discussed this the other day with our resident expert. S. Artesian, chiming in to give some details. To show how dependent China is on coal and how it has screwed up it's railroads, China is now expanding it's intercoastal fleet of coal haulters to export coal to itself by shipping coal by boat to southern China instead of by rail as rails has become unreliable, especially in winter time and during the rainy season. The huge rail conjestion is actually what is motivating the importation of coal into China, not only, or even mostly, it's rapid increase in consumption of the stuff. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] China extends development success abroad,
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Forgot to add: Michael Karadjis' report on the costs of HSR in Vietnam-- $54 billion put the per mile costs in the California range at $70 million per mile. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bolivia's Army Declares itself Socialist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The delicate balancing act requiring the grasp of Marxism and revolutionary history shows that the support has to go to those organizations outside the government that can become nodes of class-wide organization. I've read Mariategui closely, several times. I find nothing in his writings that argues for support of a government like Morales, much less a state like Bolivia's. Sure we have to put Morales in context-- part of that context is his, and the MAS, history of lagging behind the movement in Bolivia. Part of the context with MAS in Bolivia as with the ANC in South Africa is that, to the bourgeoisie, the alternatives were not viable at that time, and they need to buy a lot of time, which MAS and ANC are selling them. Part of that context is the Morales' governments open embrace of state capitalism. As for Morales being the first indigenous president--well, yes and no-- Barrientos was of Quecheua and Spanish background, spoke Quechua, liked to appear in indigenous dress etc etc, appealed to and was quite popular with the indigenous peasantry of the Cochabamba. Didn't stop him from suppressing miners' strikes. And try this: Obama is the first African-American president in a country that has oppressed African-Americans for 400 years. The problem here, the issues here, are you cannot abstract, or separate the MAS government from the Bolivian state, despite the pledges of allegiance to socialism from the military generals. You cannot abstract that state from the economy of Bolivia. Speaking of the socialist generals-- are they all resigning their commissions, capping their salaries at no more than that of the highest paid sergeant, foregoing all privileges regarding housing, transportation, etc, reorganizing their branches along socialist principles, with the military seeking to dissolve itself through the organization of workers' militias? More than all that, can anyone point to the defeat of capitalism, the success of the delicate balancing act by supporting Morales-type governments in Latin America? - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bolivia's Army Declares itself Socialist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes that's what you wrote. What exactly does defending his [Morales'] government from attempts to subvert it mean? It's a bit of idealism to think or argue that the issues in Bolivia can be captured, much less resolved, in the simplistic, and non-class specific formula like self-determination for Bolivia or hands off Bolivia. If you want to make a distinction between defense and support then you need to make that distinction based on the internal class relations of Bolivia, not upon some notion of an external, imperial force subverting the democratic rights or process within the country. There is no such process underway in Bolivia-- there is class struggle, precipitated by the conflict between the means and relations of production. Morales was the leader of the coca growers' revolt? So what? You're not presenting an argument for defense of Morales on the basis of the class position of coca growers in Bolivia. The movement in Bolivia is not a movement of coca growers. You presented an argument for adopting a delicate balance based on Morales being the first indigenous president, which he is not, in a country that has oppressed indigenous people for 400 years. How is that any different from the delicate balance advocated by many in dealing with Obama? Because Morales and his generals have declared themselves socialist? - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A new spectre haunts the WSJ
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Nope. No explanations for strangeness. No explanation for the strangeness that looks for some unifying thread to explain the strangeness. I thought we were talking about China's real recovery program and HSR. I thought that what Peggy was talking about and I couldn't make sense out of that post. - Original Message - From: MARGARET WYLES kaliy...@wildblue.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bolivia's Army Declares itself Socialist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Good job of avoiding the real questions... or providing any real answers. If you knew how to spell I might ask you to spell things out for me. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Go read the archives on Honduras. I don't have the time nor the energy to spell things out for you. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bolivia's Army Declares itself Socialist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Who said anything about your revolutionary principles? I asked you to explain what you meant concretely by the terms defense of the Morales government from subversion. I suggested we might want to look at the material determinations of the struggle in Bolivia to clarify exactly what and who the MAS represents. None of that is ideological. None of that is an attempt to turn you into an enemy of the revolution. Actually, it is more often the case that those who seem to share your defense of these types of governments from subversion slur those who question that defense by describing them as enemies of the people, collaborators with imperialism, etc. You don't want to reopen the debate? That's absurd. The debate will present itself as long as the issues themselves are not resolved. Do I think any new ideas, clarifications can come out of this debate? Call me a pollyanna, but yeah, I certainly do think clarification can be achieved, sharpened, and those reading the debate might be moved to say, read Mariategui for themselves-- or look at the history of Bolivia, the drama of the national revolution as played out before in the MNR government of 1952-1964, and even look at the economy of Bolivia from 1996 on. Hell, some few might even go way, way back and try and get a grasp on the legacy of the haciendas, the mining, indentured labor, the indentured labor as a tax... all those things that make up the real Bolivia, not the imaginary one of socialist generals. I think if you actually look back at my contributions to the list-- let's say about China, or Ecuador, or railroads, the content has not been to expose anyone but to take exception to the mythology of developmentalism But hey, keep on keepin' on, with your pretense at delicate balances and grasping Marxism while actually avoiding any examination of what is actually being grasped. Don't let me interfere. As for my boorish tendencies-- that's a hoot, given your self-admitted schmuckism. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Bolivia's Army Declares itself Socialist Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bolivia's Army Declares itself Socialist
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yeah, right--socialist, anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist-- so much so that I'm sure the generals are withdrawing all troops and support from MINUSTAH, and other UN missions. What a crock of.shit. What's next? NATO declares itself Leninist? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A new spectre haunts the WSJ
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == As an example, Eurostar does allow dedicated freight trains to operate through the channel tunnel, on the same tracks used by the HSR Eurostar. The freight being carried is generally containers on flat cars, or lorrys-- which are of much lighter weight than your average covered hopper, or gondola loaded with steel coil. Such trains are restricted in their hours of operations; the train length; their gross tonnage, and their speed. But more importantly than all that: Eurostar passenger train speeds ARE LIMITED while operating through the channel tunnel to [I think, not sure, haven't ridden the Eurostar in about a year] about 100 km/hr. Consequently any minor deformation of the track by the freight service will have no impact on the Eurostar operation. - Original Message - From: Michael Karadjis mkarad...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 1:54 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] A new spectre haunts the WSJ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: [MLL] Archival material of Revolutionary Democracyexpanded
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I can't decide which one to read first: should it be Zhdanov, Molotov, People's Democracy, on the immortal Dimitrov, Foster, Strong, Burchett? So many choices, so little time. - Original Message - From: Marxist Front marxistfr...@yahoo.co.in To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A new spectre haunts the WSJ
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The solar panels themselves are using an older, less efficient technology. The article I have in my notebook is from the New York Times of October 13. More on DW's comments later. - Original Message - From: michael perelman michael.perelm...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A new spectre haunts the WSJ
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's true. For every economist who calls for a review, there's another who says keep on keeping on. Sure there are economists who have take the long perspective. One of them was Keynes with his famous remark that in the long run we are all dead. Is there a big payoff from HSR? I don't know about that, if we're talking, as the bourgeoisie define it, in terms of hard returns on invested capital. HSR is passenger rail. France spends 10% of its GDP on its rail system-- does it turn a profit on TGV service? I honestly don't know, but I expect not, otherwise the government would have done something ridiculously stupid like spin it off to private investors, while it, the government agreed to take responsibility for all the necessary infrastructure. Are Japan's bullet trains profitable? And when I say profitable, I mean produce a return on fixed assets capable of supporting both operations and capital improvement? Again, I don't know. But Japan has a relatively high populaton density with a relatively high standard of living over a relatively small geographic area. If anything can support HSR, that combination should do the trick. China does not have a relatively well-off population. It has areas of high population density, but not all areas are of such high density. And China has a lot of territory to cover. You want to build HSR to Tibet? God bless you, and may you hire me to work on your safe train separation, your operating rule books, training your dispatchers and line officers. But please pay me first, with half in advance. I do NOT want a percentage of the profits, because I don't think there are going to be anhy. Are there big payoffs? In market terms, I don't think so. In human, social terms-- absolutely, but to get those benefits you have to overthrow market relations. Yes, we all know about backfeeding and forward feeding the economy with the demand generated by a capital program of the size of generating the world's largest HSR network. But if capitalism worked like that, and I assume we all agree that China's expansion is a capitalist expansion, then it would be able to invest itself out of every economic contraction-- just front load a few big projects and watch the economy take off. Does not work like that. At all. Anywhere. DW: There are plan to run HSR from Shanghai to Beijing,a huge passenger AND freight corridor. When HSR starts running freight...this has result on remaining tracts, easy maintenance of way costs were are astronomical in China due to heavy coal transport. If China is able to reverse it's use of coal, what are the effects of that on rail of all sorts? HSR does not run freight. HSR cannot share tracks with heavy axle loaded freight cars. Track geometry deformity by the heavy axle loaded freight will destroy the ability to run at high speeds-- or destroy the HSR train that attempts to run at speed. If China has figured out some way to run them on shared track, remind me to never take a HSR train when in China. I mean it's no joke. At 200-250 mph you have improper cross elevation on a curve, a weak spot in the rail, a track knocked out of alignment by 1/2 inch or so and that HSR is going to splatter itself all over the countryside. You think MOW costs are high because you're running coal? Wait until you get a look at the maintenance costs for running HSR. The only way to control those costs is...tremendous capital investment in advanced track geometry vehicles, track sensors, maintenance machinery, which will reduce your operating, and labor costs per track mile-- provided you put the money up front into the equipment. And with that, you have to keep freight, and even normal speed passenger traffic off the HSR track. I would point out that China may reduce its use of coal but China is not going to reverse its use of coal, not in the next 10 years or so, and of course we can look to the longer term. We can look at the course of US development where use of coal has declined over the years and it still accounts for 40 percent of rail traffic. Coal is heavy axle load freight. You cannot run coal trains on the same tracks as HSR. Before that long term gets here, something else will, and that will be the due dates on the debt that financed this stimulus. In 2009 China's banks lent Rmb 9.6 trillion , twice the amount loaned out in 2008. Much of that money was lent to local governments, so much so that outstanding debt totals of local governments climbed to Rmb 7.7 trillion. Of the stimulus program itself-- Rmb 4 trillion-- 2.8 trillion went to projects and investment trusts of local governments. The Financial Times reported that China now estimates 20% of that
[Marxism] US Industrial production
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == INDUSTRIAL PRODUCTION AND CAPACITY UTILIZATION Industrial production was unchanged in October after having fallen 0.2 percent in September. For the manufacturing sector, output gained 0.5 percent in October after having risen 0.1 percent in September. Factory production in September was initially reported to have decreased 0.2 percent, but incoming data on steel, fabricated metal products, machinery, and chemicals helped boost the index. The output of utilities dropped 3.4 percent in October, as unseasonably warm temperatures reduced demand for heating. Production at mines fell 0.1 percent. At 93.4 percent of its 2007 average, total industrial production in October was 5.3 percent above its year-earlier level. The capacity utilization rate for total industry was flat at 74.8 percent, a rate 6.6 percentage points above the low in June 2009 and 5.8 percentage points below its average from 1972 to 2009. http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/g17/Current/default.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] If only...
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Dan: So, as our common human heritage, all historical artifacts up to the 19th century should, in all justice, be under the custody of an international body responsible for preserving mankind's artistic heritage, and should be on itinerant display on every continent. Six months in one major city, six months in another, and so on... No more permanent collections. ___ Well Dan, people in hell should have ice water, but they don't. Consequently, they are hot and thirsty. Our common heritage is a goal to be realized in the abolition of capitalism. The reality from which we begin that struggle, is that our common heritage has been converted into private property. If, as you say, it belongs to all of us, then there should be no objection to packing up the artifacts looted from Egypt by Napoleon, and by his British successors, and shipping them back for display there. The practical reality is that the Egyptian representative has asked for the return of looted artifacts to be displayed in a museum under construction. So until such time as the proletariat is in power and has made such artifacts indeed the common heritage of us all, I'm for returning them immediately to the countries and territories of their origin. And yes, it's just a gesture, and will not change the class relations either in Paris or Cairo, but it's a gesture that crystallizes our, Marxists', opposition to the entire history of capitalist destruction and plunder. - Original Message - From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] If only ...
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Come on Dan-- this has nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with commerce, plunder, imperialism, capitalism. Sure Egypt has something in common with the Egypt of the Pharoahs-- it's the place where the Pharoah's pyramids, temples, and treasure houses are. It's the place where these artifacts were before being stolen. We can overembellish, superrationalize this all we want, but all that does is prop up the status quo. - Original Message - From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] If only ... Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Irish crisis - any comments???
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == 1.Essentially, the Irish government turned the entire country into a bad bank to take over the non-performing assets of Anglo-Irish and other banks. The government created the National Asset Management Agency [NAMA] to buy the non-performing instruments from the banks. The banks themselves were less than candid about the quality of the loans, and their own exposure, and the government being a sucker never got the even break, paying about 75% of the face value for the equivalent of euro 77 billion in assets. The asssets have since been devalued, requiring further injections from the government to keep the banks afloat. In October 2008, the govt. state that it would need to inject euro 1.5 billion into Anglo-Irish bank to stabilize the institution. As of October 2010 the actual amount has been about euro 23 billion, with another 11-12 billion to come. The haircut now on the assets the banks still hold is now at 56% and the amount the Irish govt will need to supply the banks to me its collateral obligations and maintain day to day operations is expected to reach euro 46 billion, an amount equal to 33% of all goods and services produced in Ireland this year. 2. Enter Merkel, the arch-Angela of death. Angela was bit perturbed over being compelled to support the bailout of Greece, and the establishment of EFSB. I think that's European Financial Stability Board-- that big off-balance sheet funding vehicle designed to bail out any country stupid enough to turn to it and the IMF for help. The EFSB will issue instruments-- i.e. debt, to provide funds to said country and the debt will be secured by... by the budgets of the governments of the EU countries themselves, in essence turning all of the EU into a big bad bank. Anyway despite the fact that the EFSB has 3 years left to go on its contract, and has a no-trade clause, Angela tested the market, and roiled the waters, by demanding that the EU look at a successor to EFSB that would require the private debt holders, the bond buyers, the banks and their customers, to shoulder more of the burden, to take a bigger haircut. But nobody wants to sit in the chair when Sweeney Todd is the barber. The bond market freaked, or pretended to freak knowing that nothing separates a fool from his money quicker than fear, and started to drive down the face value of Irish debt, particularly sovereign debt, thereby driving up interest rates and the spread in yields between Irish bonds and German bonds of similar maturities. In addition the price of insuring Irish bonds against default, those world famous credit default swaps which proved so problematic for AIG, and made so much money for Goldman Sachs, Deutsche Bank etc. soared soared so much in fact that it effectively swallowed the interest anyone might earn from insuring a 5 year note against default. This is the highly leveraged structured investment asset backed paper version of your house being underwater. Literally and metaphorically. So so those holding the Irish debt can't sell in the secondary markets without risking a razor cut below the chin line; nor can they purchase CDSs against default without losing anything they might receive in interest. Thank you Angela. Ireland's finance minister, a certain Mr. Lenihan thinks this is all a tempest in a teapot, that the markets are overreacting, that there is no cause for alarm because Ireland has enough cash reserve to fund its operations through the end of the year and into 2011, thus avoiding the need, the embarrassment, not to mention the expense of going back to the bond markets to raise cash. Does that sound Greek to you? It sounds Greek to me. Now to make things even better, while the initial distress was precipitated by the collapse in commercial real estate, and commercial real estate loans, Ireland's residential mortgages are faltering with the number overdue 90 days or more increasing by 50% in 2009 to 4.6% of the number outstanding. What's the big worry? Our friend, Mr. Contagion. If Ireland goes, what about Portugal, what about Spain? What about Italy, whose debt mass dwarfs that of Spain, Portugal and Ireland, debt accrued in large part to keep Berlusconi supplied with underage pole-dancers. Anybody got a lead shoe we can throw at his recently reconstructed face? So, on Friday everybody was waiting for markets to open on Monday and how the market would value Irish debt since Angela Lansbury Merkel Lovett opened up her new meat pie take out shack featuring Irish meat. Apparently the opening was a success, and the patient is close to dying. And that's just Act 1. - Original Message - From: Gary MacLennan gary.maclenn...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net
Re: [Marxism] Tick-tock, tick-tock
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I like my version better. But then, I would say that, wouldn't I? - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 9:23 PM Subject: [Marxism] Tick-tock, tick-tock Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] In Search of Pictures of Stanley Diamond
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Long shot... but Getty images might have something: http://www.gettyimages.com/ - Original Message - From: CHRISTOPHERR CARRICO ccarr...@temple.edu Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] If only....
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == If protection has nothing to do with Shane's argument, right has even less to do with where the artifacts should be displayed, since right is a function of property. The artifacts were looted and represent the achievement of imperialism-- that is to say: imperialism's collecting of souvenirs as it destroys the lives and the culture of the territories it invades. That's is the basis for the rights of peacable museum custodians, not to mention museum visitors. But let's see: An archeologist representing the state that governs the territory where the artifacts originated asks for the return of the looted artifacts for display in a new museum that will be open to the public-- and because what? -- because Egypt is not a model of democracy, as the UK has been in its democratic treatment of the Irish, of the inhabitants of Pakistan and India, as it so handsomely demonstrated in Kenya, the artifacts should stay right there in Britain, adding to the tourist revenues of the British bourgeoisie, who, after all, need the money in the worst way? And oh... let's keep in mind the obligation to preserve such artifacts, protect them from the destructive bigotry of the rulers of some of the areas from which the artifacts are looted Except here's the thing: the most important thing any Marxist can do, the thing every Marxist must do at every instance is to distinguish Marxism, distinguish the actions, policies, and the rights of the proletariat, of socialism, from the actions and polices and rights of the bourgeoisie, in particular the bourgeoisie of its own country. The reason that must be done, without equivocation, without temporizing over the rights of police-state regimes vs. the rights of peacable museum custodians, is that without the distinction, without that implacable opposition to the veneer of bourgeois culture and bourgeois civilization, there is no opposition to the reality of imperialist looting, capitalist exploitation, and the destruction of human life outside the museum doors. If and when Nigeria demands the return of every tribal mask taken from its tribes, if and when the indigenous peoples of Latin American demand the return of every piece of jewelry taken from them, Marxists have every interest in demanding those peacable museum custodians give up their loot, regardless of the quality of the government making the demands. - Original Message - From: Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] If only Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Demonstration Against Proposed Fee Hikes in Britain
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Tory headquarters appears to have been occupied. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2010/nov/10/demo-2010-student-protests-live Cue the usual condemnations of violence, splinters, anarchists, etc. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Role of the Army
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == We should not forget how this discussion started-- which was about discrimination in the military services and not the role of the army. I don't think there is any disagreement about the role of the army as an institution. I don't think that I disagree with Dan's characterization of the army as an enemy of the people. Certainly, as an institution, that is the military's role The issue of contention was how best to crack the cohesiveness, the discipline that the military must have to function in that role. The suggestions by Peggy, IMO, are mistaken not because they are so utopian, but rather because they're so Proudhonian-- that old we want the capital, but without the capitalists idea. Here we want the military, without the miliarists-- we want the military to play a different role, to change its spots. That's not going to happen, and agitating for a million recruit increase is not going to crack that discipline.First off, we don't advocate the military as a way to reduce unemployment-- that's the military's line. We don't advocate it because that doesn't attack the class structure within the military, separate the ranks from the officer corps. We don't advocate it because it's all too close to the war is good for business, and what's good for business is good for labor argument. As for the humanitarian capacity of the armed forces, I'd like to point out the great results of the humanitarian actions of the US military in taking logistical command of the arrival and distribution of relief supplies, personnel, and efforts after the earthquake in Haiti-- particularly the redirecting away from Haiti of the shipments to support the MSF doctors; the delay in accepting the rescue teams from Iceland; the rejection of the specially trained and organized search and rescue teams from Houston, Texas... etc. etc. etc. And it's my personal opinion that there are no such things as grassroots teabaggers. This is not a populist movement of poor and lower middle class working and shopkeeper types. The teabaggers are well-to-do, materially comfortable and exactly the type of people who invest in corporations like Halliburton without blinking an eye about the abuse of military contracts, the overcharging, double-billing, etc. etc. - Original Message - From: Peggy Dobbins pegdobb...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Role of the Army
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == No way you can compare the MFA in Portugal with the soviets of soldier's and sailor's deputies in 1917. The whole point is that a class-conscious movement of workers can, in its self-organization for power, in its struggle against the bourgeoisie, split the military along class lines. All Power To The Soviets proved that. The reverse-- a split military does not amount to, nor can it substitute for that oganization of the workers directlly engaging in the struggle for power. The MFA proved that. - Original Message - From: Paddy Apling e.c.apl...@btinternet.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] On the Ferreyra murder
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Very interesting. My Spanish isn't the best, to put it mildly, but do I have this right.. this main witness describes himself as a militant Peronist also participated in the planning of the assault on the PO? It would be helpful to know the political affiliation of those in that list of accused/implicated in the crime. - Original Message - From: Néstor Gorojovsky nmg...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Lincoln Elected 150 Years Ago This Day
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes, I guess it takes events 150 years in the past for Nestor and myself to agree on something.. but indeed read everything you can about Lincoln, the Civil War, and the changes in Lincoln's thoughts about race, class and the US, and IMO the conclusion is inescapable: Lincoln-- the only decent president in US history. Lincoln--the only decent man to be elected president. Lincoln's government-- the only government in US history worthy of support by Marxists. The Civil War-- the only war worth fighting, necessary to fight, in US history [yes, including the war for independence]. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Role of the Army
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Those are very good points about the transformation of the military with the emergence of mercantile capitalism... and I think if we follow through on that transformation into the 19th century and 20th century, we can see the military transformed into a national institution, one embodying the class contradictions within itself. Does or can the whole military go over to the revolution, which I think is the pint you are raising about centralized command and other units being available to put down rebel units? Maybe no, maybe yes. But really, does the entire WORKING CLASS go over to the revolution prior to a section, a big section, actually executes, actualizes the revolution? Maybe yes, maybe no... but in most cases probably not. Samey-same as we used to say back in the day. The whole point is to not let the military be separated from the stress and strains of the class struggle that pervade the rest of society. That's one reason, one big fat reason I think Marxists should be in favor of UNIVERSAL military service, yes, conscription, for everyone-- gays, heteros, confused, whatever-- rather than volunteer armies in bourgeois countries. - Original Message - From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Great cartoon spoofing gays in the military
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == IMO that's exactly the reason we don't defend participation in the military-- because it's a chance to get a good job or an education. That's the line the armed forces uses to recruit and the history is that after recruitment those opportunities are not available for the overwhelming majority othe rank and file. We don't defend participation in the military at all. We oppose discrimination everywhere. - Original Message - From: Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 5:29 PM We defend the right of participation in the military, among other reasons, because it's often the best chance the poor have of getting anywhere different in this society. It's the key to an education, to a decent job, to the kind of future that some on this list may well be taking for granted. ML Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What is so hard to understand?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Exactly. We oppose discrimination. We defend those who are attacked because of their race, religion, color, gender, sexual orientation. It's not that complicated. Besides, how often do you see me agreeing with Lou? Me agreeing with Vlad? Hell, me agreeing with anybody? - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Look, we want to see this kind of bullshit come to an end. All this talk about how imperialist the army is is preaching to the choir. We are dealing with a different social ill. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Role of the Army
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Take it easy, Dan. That's hardly the point of disagreement. Nobody is arguing for the capitalist military. We are simply against discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation anywhere it's practiced and certainly everywhere it is institutionalized. That's all there is to this. - Original Message - From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Pledge to America [Bank of] by those populist small town, non-elite Republicans
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From the Financial Times of 4 November. Opening salvo from Spencer Bachus, a potential Republican chair of the House Financial Services Committee, targets bank regulators who seek to curb banks' proprietary trading. Mr. Bachus says that the ban on such trading, known as the Volcker Rule that was included in the Dodd-Frank financial reform law will impose substantial costs on the American economy and market participants while yielding doubtful benefits. Implementation of the rules may spark a mass exodus of clients from US banks to banks based abroad. Bachus is concerned that shareholders of Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan Chase will be hurt because the banks will be less profitable. _ Isn't that touching? Isn't that just so main street as opposed to the elitist Wall Street pandering of the established Democrats? Gosh, oh gee willikers, the next thing you know, Sarah Palin will writing letters to the MMS office demanding that deepwater drilling be allowed to go forth unimpeded by those messy, costly, profit-killing safety regulations. I'd like to say that a good portion of the American electorate is a bunch of suckers and saps, but that would be too generous. Actually the electorate reminds me more of the audience at a World Wrestling Enterprise smackdown-- so excited by sight of the steroid juiced goons breaking chairs over each other's heads, that they decide to break the chairs over their own heads. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Role of the Army
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Even a blind pig finds an acorn every once in awhile. - Original Message - From: Manuel Barrera mtom...@hotmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 11:31 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Role of the Army Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] the USA are buying their own T-bonds
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yep, ECB is doing it. JCB has been doing it for maybe what? 10 years? Buy the bonds, pump the cash into the banks. That worked so well in 2009, didn't it? Don't worry, the third time will be the charm. - Original Message - From: Vladimiro Giacche' md1...@mclink.it To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 2:35 PM Subject: [Marxism] the USA are buying their own T-bonds Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: [EcoRev] Crisis in France: 3rd Report by RichardGreeman
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Is there a link for this? - Original Message - From: Carol Brown caroltheart...@aol.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marxists, bourgeoisie and railroad unions in Argentina [Re: Now is not the time to be a marxist, on Kirchner]
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Actually, I'd like to go back to my original question. Where is the evidence, previous or current, that Petroni is a liar? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who cares who wins the elections
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Wow. And more than one enemyway more. - Original Message - From: Manuel Barrera mtom...@hotmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Now is not the time to be a marxist, on Kirchner
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Thanks to LK for this. And I would like to re-emphasize that Argentina did not cancel its debt to the international institutions, but rather reneged on the outstanding private debt held internationally. - Original Message - From: Leonardo Kosloff holmof...@hotmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2010 1:00 PM Subject: [Marxism] Now is not the time to be a marxist, on Kirchner Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Now is not the time to be a marxist, on Kirchner
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == An inability to understand what is being said does mpt automatically mean that what is being said is gibberish. The paragraph by Inigo is certainly less gibberish-like than the musings of Fidel Castro that get posted uncritically... Uncritically?... hell, we're supposed to receive them on bend knee, with our heads turned away, like Moses receiving the tablets, so we aren't blinded, burnt, and asphyxiated by the blinding light emanating from the oracle at La Habana. Inigo is simply pointing to the material determinants that propel the proletariat to act, develop as a class- for- itself in its struggle for survival, in which development the proletariat is compelled to struggle for more than its survival, but for its ascendancy, and thus, for its own abolition as the proletariat, of the embodiment of estranged labor. If that's too difficult a point to grasp... then don't bother reading Marx's economic manuscripts 1857-1864, his proposed 6th chapter of vol 1 of Capital, his essay on the conversion of surplus value into capital... it will all sound like gibberish to you. You don't like the guy's language? You think it's difficult? That's a legit criticism, AFTER you've acknowledged the content of his assertions. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Now is not the time to be a marxist, on Kirchner
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Nobody's asked Fidel Castro to write in the style of anybody-- but two years ago, Fidel was musing over the positive aspects of Obama, remember? And not so long before that he was walking arm and arm with an ayatollah or two, right? So spare us, give us a break from thinking that because Fidel says something positive about Kirchner, it means something different than Fidel saying something positive about Obama or an ayatollah or two. It means only that Fidel sees something in it for Cuba. It's so wonderful to read how this or that white person in the US is standing with companera Christina... even if that means standing against a few thousand or so workers who think there's a bit more to class struggle than the empty rhetoric of national self-determination espoused by the breast-beaters of El Norte, even or especially those fluent in the languages of two conquests. I can't imagine why, for 60 years, such support for the real heros of anti-imperialism, a Paz here, a Salvador there, Juan, Eva, and Isabel around the corner hasn't brought much relief to Latin America. But I'm sure this time will be different. I'm sure with Mercosur and ALBA and Unasur, and with the benevolence of China, this time real progress will be made; real development will occur, and things will be so wonderful, the sun will shine so brightly on Latin America, people will have to wear sunglasses at midnight. Count on it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] MRZine, Che Guevara and Iran
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Pointless specualation, on a par with tweets about Lady Gaga, the noise from your neighbor's hot tub [assuming you live in Laurel Canyon, etc.] and what Brad and Angelina think about dollar depreciation. While being anti-US might have been good enough for Guevera, we need to ask the question good enough for what? Good enough to oppose the military coup? OK. Let's get that matter cleared up. As an ultra-left super council communist I oppose the military coup and believe all Marxists should have mobilized their organizations to oppose the military coup. And so what next? And at this point we cue up those who want to point out how the Bolsheviks defended Kerensky against Kornilov. Accept they didn't. They defended the soviets against Kerensky and Kornilov. So good enough for what? Obviously not good enough for the success of a social revolution that must precede any realization of the unification of Latin America. The history of Latin American struggles proves that-- or perhaps there's some other meaning to the self-enabled overthrow of the MNR in Bolivia; the overthrow of Goulart in Brazil; Allende in Chile; the unleashing of the death squads in Argentina with, by and through the agreement of Isabel Peron etc. etc? And maybe that patently evident meaning, not good enough, is also the meaning of Che's failures in Africa and Bolivia Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Nov. 6 (NYC): Conference on Economic Crisis Left Response
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Procreation. And naming his son after himself. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 9:05 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Nov. 6 (NYC): Conference on Economic Crisis Left Response == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 10/29/2010 4:13 AM, seth weiss wrote: CONFIRMED SPEAKERS Roslyn Wallach Bologh, Brendan Cooney, Walter Daum, Barry Finger, Mac Intosh, Anne Jaclard, Andrew Kliman, Paul Mattick, Fred Moseley, and Richard Wolff Paul Mattick? Wow. He really has mastered the science of longevity. I wonder what his secret is? Acai berries? Colon cleanser? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sartesian%40earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] No double-dip
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The article doesn't say there won't be a double-dip, but rather that even if it does recover, the long term conflicts will remain. Corporate profits have indeed recovered, and indeed in certain industries, like semi-conductor fabrication, capital spending has increased and dramatically, to the point where overproduction is closing in again and prices of DRAM chips, and perhaps NAND, have peaked. Shipbuilding has once again been overbooked so we can expect to see freight rates falling and ships at anchor. Corporations in the US are sitting on over a trillion dollars in cash, and cash-like securities-- loading up through bond issuings, layoffs, improved profits, and restraints on capital spending. Between the 2Q 2009 and the 2Q 2010 NET property, plant, and equipment for US manufacturing declined from $1.273 trillion to $1.255 trillion, which indicates that depreciation and the liquidation of PPE is exceeding the rate of new investment. Capacity utilization rates are still below historic averages, so I don't expect to see another burst of capital spending acros the board in manufacturing. Will there be another dip? First off, the recovery has not brought the output back to pre-recession levels. Secondly, the recovery, like the post 2001-2003 recovery is being financed by dollar depreciation, wage reductions, restraints on spending... and the post 2003 recovery was the weakest on record in terms of job creation, rate of growth of output etc. So the real question just might be... what difference does a double dip make when recovery itself is simply a weaker form of contraction? - Original Message - From: robert mckee bobmcke...@yahoo.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A nice complement from Alexander Cockburn
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Get your money back. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A nice complement from Alexander Cockburn
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == You don't understand, you have to send ME the money. Then you get the tirade. - Original Message - Go ahead, but send the money in to Counterpunch. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Realist ontology
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Dan, Your realist ontology sounds too much, IMO, like epistemology to be derived from Hegel or Marx. In his economic manuscripts, Marx refers to, and demonstrates that, capital as a self-mediating relationship; that once initiated with the separation of the laborers from the instruments of production such that labor confronts the conditions of labor as an opposition, every moment of capitalist production and circulation is both derived from, and reproduces that social relation. What Marx extracts from Hegel, in Marx's critique of Hegel's philosophy of right, and in Marx's early manuscripts is that Hegel is not crating an epistemology, a theory of knowlege. Rather Hegel is narrating the way in which human beings make themselves at home in the world-- appropriate their own being. Hegel is, in short, analyzing the movement of history, but since that history is an estranged, alienated history, Hegel's presentation is even more estranged, with the subject of the narration being consciousness and the realization by the self of the self as that consciousness. Marx's extraction consists of grounding that history, that appropriation of being, in the actual social conditions of production. The human beings make themselves at home in the world by appropriating nature. That appropriation, to have a meaning as appropriation, must be social. The appropriation of nature occurs within specific social relations, which constitute the appropriation of the labor process. Hegel's ship of reason wrecks itself in the Philosophy of Right, where Hegel, unable to grasp the material determinants of social reproduction embodies reason, the universal, the consciousness of the self as itself and all others, in the crystallization of the irrational, particular, petty-- the state. Hegel becomes the example of his own characterization of liberalism as a philosophy of the abstract that capitulates before the world of the concrete. So after the critique of Hegel, Marx has to turn to the real determinants of civil society, and of history, to the critique of social relations of production-- which he engages in the EPM of 1844. I didn't know, until this summer when my friend Richard Harris [UK] pointed out that the EPM of 1844 were not written sequentially, linearly, but rather Marx had stitched together a number of notebooks so he could create a geography-- linking topic to topic, more or less horizontally. The EPM literally unfolds. You can see how Marx did this at: http://home.freeuk.net/lemmaesthetics/navigate.htm Anyway, being the ultra-left barbarian that I am, I would recommend that you not read Althusser, who pretty much admitted before his death how little he had actually read of Marx's work, not to mention of Hegel; and I wouldn't urge reading Lukacs either, who I think really takes Marx several steps backward into a theory of consciousness rather than forward to the immanent critique of capital and the forces inherent tending towards its abolition. I do strongly recommend reading Marx's Economic Manuscripts of 1857-1864,[Volumes 33-34 in the collected works, with additional manuscripts in volumes 28, 30, and 31] which contain various iterations of Capital, and the Grundrisse, the proposed 6th chapter to volume 1 on results of the production process, a 2nd companion volume to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy, and a fantastic essay on the conversion of surplus value into capital. In these manuscripts you can see Marx re-engaging with the categories of the EPM of 1844, demonstrating how estranged labor is the thread connecting, not only the origin of capital with its current and future development, but also all the different manifestations of capital in its accumulation of value. - Original Message - From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.fr To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Artesian's Bring In The Paper, Bring On The Torches
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Aw shucks, you're making me blush. I highly recommend the US Dept of Commerce's websites [of which BEA is one], particularly those run by the Census Bureau. Lots of interesting information at the Annual Survey of Manufactures here: http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/IBQTable?_bm=y-ds_name=AM0831GS101 Annual Capital expenditures here: http://www.census.gov/econ/aces/xls/2008/Full%20Report.htm Manufacturing and Construction here: http://www.census.gov/mcd/ Bureau of Economic Analysis NIPA tables on corporate income, profits, real private fixed investment here: http://www.bea.gov/national/nipaweb/SelectTable.asp?Selected=N BEA NIPA tables on Fixed Assets here: http://www.bea.gov/national/FA2004/SelectTable.asp Sections 3 has the tables of specific interest, tables 3.3s, 3.6es, 3.6s, 3.7, 3.7s, 3.7e, 3.7s, 3.10 e, es. Changes in net stock of produced assets [fixed assets and inventories]here: http://www.bea.gov/National/nipaweb/TableView.asp?SelectedTable=177FirstYear=2003LastYear=2008Freq=YearAnd very good stuff in the Census Bureaus Quarterly Financial Report onManufacturing, Mining, and Trade Corporations at:http://www.census.gov/econ/qfr/- Original Message -From: Dan d.koech...@wanadoo.frlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Reflections on the situation in France
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From a friend .I am not familiar with the Red Star Society, or Workers Party . Support the French Workers' Strikes! For over a month and a half, French workers have mobilized against President Sarkozy's so-called reform of the retirement age. We have seen demonstrations with up to 3.5 million people in the streets, strikes at thousands of businesses and workplaces, road blocks put up everyday in all the business centers, and the impressive strike of oil refinery workers, supported by all of the working class in France, to create an oil shortage. But now this movement needs solidarity from workers all over the world. In France, being on strike means you get no wages at all, because there's no tradition of strike pay or wages being subsidized by the unions. This is a major problem for the strike, because many people are tending to delegate others sectors to go on strike for them. But now, some union and workers' organizations are beginning to set up solidarity funds to help the strike continue for weeks or months, if necessary. Sarkozy's government tries to ignore the oil shortage, because he fears total economic paralysis. He uses any means for that, including importing oil refined in others countries. Already, the CGSP union in Belgium has declared they will call for a strike to stop any attempts to import oil from Belgium or through Belgium, in order to help French workers win their demands and defeat Sarkozy's government. In Brazil and England, working people have organized demonstrations in front of French embassies to express their support for French workers. Working-class organizations have sent statements of support. It is important to organize world solidarity among workers, as our class faces the same struggle all over the world. This is why we are calling on all the workers' organizations of the world to: a.. Express their solidarity with the strike movement in France b.. Organize demonstrations in front of French embassies, consulates or businesses c.. Call for strikes against any attempt to export oil to France and to stop these exports d.. Help financially support the workers on strike in the most strategically important sectors (refinery and other branches with a strong economic impact) Worker-Communist Initiative of Europe - www.communisme-ouvrier.info Abroad Committee of Worker-Communist party of Iran [Hekmatist] - www.hekmatist.com Worker-Communist Party of Iraq - www.wpiraq.net Worker-Communist Party of Kurdistan - www.hkkurdistan.org Red Star Society of the United States - www.redstarsociety.com Workers Party in America - www.workers-party.com If you or your organization wish to add your name to this statement, contact party[at]workers-party.com and/or contact[at]communisme-ouvrier.info. Information on where to send donations is forthcoming. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Speaking of ultra-left
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Issue 2 of Insurgent Notes is available, finally, [have I ever told anyone how much I hate web-based publishing?] at: http://insurgentnotes.com/ Read it and don't weep. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Argentine Trotskyist of the PO murdered by Peronists onWeds.
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Been away a couple of days. Petroni a liar? I don't recall any incidents of him lying. I know LP unsubbed him after he got into with Nestor, but as I recall that exchange there didn't seem to be any lies in it. I'd be interested in learning exactly where Petroni lied... and what the truth is. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Postscript on Anti-Muslim Racism Re: Question for Moishe Postone
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I, for one, am very gratified to note the symbiotic schmuck alert cross-monitoring that goes on between Les and Louis. - Original Message - Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Excerpt from Michael Hudson's new book
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Interesting-- better style, same approach. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] News from France
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I think the crucial thing is to move from strikes, from paralyzing the economy, to figuring some way to pose the possibility, the necessity, for the workers to take the power of civil society in order to emancipate the economic machinery. Tough nut, that. And while I'm pretty good at asking the right questions, the answers need to come from the workers themselves. No matter how general the strike, the strikers themselves can be isolated, separated from other strikers and picked off, location by location. - Original Message - From: Gary MacLennan gary.maclenn...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A simple slogan [Re: American-style]
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == We don't need a Father Gapon. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] A simple slogan [Re: American-style]
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Here's what was written by NG: I am not USAmerican, of course, and I am not prone to have a saying on issues where I am not directly involved. But I guess this simple slogan, when gathering Black Americans, is somehow a reminder of another simple slogan, Peace, Bread, Land. Where´s a Father Gapon when you need one? Had nothing to do with the current struggle in France. The comments were directed towards to the US, where I know there is no widespread embrace of socialist consciousness. And we'll never get an embrace of socialist consciousness by wistfully looking for a Father Gapon to lead a march to prick the conscience of the little king, or whatever equivalent we'll be dredged up, unless of course, we're planning for workers to be shot down or sabered by Cossacks. We're well past the era, if one ever existed, where a Father Gapon figure can act as anything other than an obstacle. Actually, we have plenty of Father Gapons around the world. We call them NGOs. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Everything you need to know about China's internationalism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == WSJ of 10/18/10 reported that 11 coal miners were shot by two Chinese supervisors at the China owned Collum Coal Mine. The miner were part of a demonstration and protest against low wages and unsafe working conditions. Miners at the Collum Mine are the lowest paid in Zambia. In 2008, the Zambian safety department closed the underground portion of the mine due to several fatal accidents Meanwhile... The bodies of 26 miners were recovered after a coal mine accident in Henan province, China. Eleven miners are missing, and there is little hope for their survival. In 2009, China again recorded the largest number of mining fatalities, at 2631. But the outlook isn't all bleak, that number is significantly less than China's mine fatalities in 2002 which were recorded at 6995. Things are getting better all the time, even if they have to shoot miners in Zambia. Progress demands it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Why is an economy benefited by exporting?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't see it either, but not for those reasons. An export-driven economy, like Germany or Japan is NOT an alternative to financialization and services, as the case of Japan and Germany both illustrate. Financialization and services go hand in hand with export driven economies, and result from the some impulses driving the export functions. As for export driven economies being comparably more equal... well no, they're not any more equal or unequal than demand driven economies. There might be variations, differences, but they are not dependent upon levels of exports in an economy. They are dependent upon the overall development of the capitalism, its interaction with the surrounding relations of landed property, and landed labor, and the history of its participation in the world markets. And we might want to keep in mind that Japan, and to a lesser degree, Germany's response to slowdown and stagnation in the 1990s and early 2000s was to introduce more inequality, to tier their working classes among other notable things, one of those notable things being exporting, particularly in the case of Japan, massive amounts of capital to places like... China. We might also keep in mind that prior to the 2008 contraction the US was the 2nd or 3rd largest exporter in the world. I don't understand Barry's remarks because I can't even make grammatical sense out of his concluding statement. The problem with the article posted by Marvin is its typical equilibrium economics underpinning when in fact no such equilibrium is necessary for capitalism's success and no such lack of equilibrium is responsible for its distress. Overproduction, now there's something that gets to the heart of both success and distress. And overproduction is what is driving the manifestations of the currency wars which are masks for the trade wars which are representations of the profit wars, and which will be resolved not by any sort of reciprocity between the US and China, but by a real big fat nasty war. - Original Message - From: David Picón Álvarez da...@miradoiro.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Larry Clark censored in Paris
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Hey Shane-- have I ever told you what a disingenuous jerk you are on the Polanski issue? If I've neglected to do so, consider this a correction of that lapse. First, I don't know why you feel you have to follow the path followed by Grover-Furr by claiming that some on this list expressed obscene delight...in the persecution of Roman Polanski, when first.. no such persecution occurred in the real world, and secondly nobody on this list expressed any delight, obscene or puritanical in Mr. Polanski's trials-- in this case attempt to avoid trials-- and tribulations with the prosecutors from California. All that was expressed was the recognition that Mr. Polanski had raped a child and that unlike others less connected, less wealthy he was able to flee prosecution and continue to live comfortably, while his wealthy and connected friends pretended Polanski was a great artist whose art not only outweighed his rape of a child, but might actually justify it. So if you want to line up with those wealthy, connected people who are so open-minded they blame the child for the rape, go right ahead, but that makes you the person expressing an obscene delight. - Original Message - From: Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Larry Clark censored in Paris
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Yes, he has. I received his email after I had read and responded to yours. Have a wonderful day, and let's all back the Giants in a sweep of the Phillies. - Original Message - From: Shane Mage shm...@pipeline.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 5:26 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Larry Clark censored in Paris == Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On Oct 17, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: NO POLANSKI STUFF On Oct 17, 2010, at 4:33 PM, S. Artesian wrote: Hey Shane-- have I ever told you what a disingenuous jerk you are on the Polanski issue?... Our moderator had already spoken. ...else I should answer from a full-flowing stomach... (King Lear, Act V, Scene III) Shane Mage Thunderbolt steers all things. Herakleitos of Ephesos, fr. 64 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sartesian%40earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Eva Golinger, narconews, upsidedownworld, EcuadorSolidarity Network
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Cool story, bro. Nice attempt to distort the 'real issue' in the exchange of posts, which was the TOPIC of the POSTs-- and that topic wasn't whether there was a coup or not, whether I think there was or was not a coup, but rather Eva Golinger's assertions that CONAIE's actions and statements, and those of other indigenous groups, were evidence of an accommodation to imperialism which she suspects' is brought on by the influence of NED etc. That was the real issue in the posts. If I were you--and I'm so very glad I'm not--I'd try real hard to read what is actually written rather than change the topic of the ongoing discussion. The issue isn't how accurate, or inaccurate Ms. Golinger's reporting has been on Honduras or Venezuela. The issue is the accuracy of her suspicions about CONAIE in Ecuador. If you were me-- and I'm even more happy you're not-- then you would know that I've already posted my view of the events of Sept 30 and my opposition to the coup. If you were me, you wouldn't regard the lack of evidence as evidence, or possible evidence of a crime which in fact did not occur-- which is to say CONAIE's support for the coup. On Sept. 30, the day of the coup attempt, CONAIE did NOT support the coup. CONAIE opposed it and reasserted its oppositon to the policies of Correa which have repressed the movement of indigenous people. If you were me, you wouldn't introduce extraneous issues into the discussion in the attempt to cloud the issues-- you know, like whether or not the FBI was involved in the murder of King and Malcolm X. If you were me you wouldn't use the typically Vyshinky tactic of using your own ignorance of what somebody has in fact written and said [in this case, me] to proclaim We see where you stand. But since you are you, you avoid, distort, conflate, and make things up, which puts you firmly on the side, and in the sorry tradition, of so many others who talk left and walk right. - Original Message - From: stansfield smith stansfieldsm...@yahoo.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] was the Ecuador coup an amateur job?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Oh that's rich-- comparing the discussion here to the capitulation by the social democrats at the start of WW1. In my case, I wish I were more surprised that Stansfield's midget version of Comintern smear techniques appears on a Marxism email list. I am not. Perhaps there's something wrong with my short-term memory, or perhaps there's something wrong with Stansfield's, because I don't recall anybody on this list NOT condemning the actions of the police, and opposing the attempt at a coup. I know it's tough to actually focus and retain what was said during the heated discussion, but that's what the archives are for-- although that's probably only of use to those who think there's better things to do with history than distort and deny it. - Original Message - From: stansfield smith stansfieldsm...@yahoo.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Friday, October 15, 2010 11:05 AM In any case, I am rather surprised that on a Marxism email list, a number of people on it can't make up their minds about who to condemn when there is an attempted US coup in a Third World country. It sounds like a little miniature version of the German Social Democrat Party when World War One broke out: do we support the international working class or do we support imperialism? Well, it's a tough decision, maybe we should just abstain on the war credit vote and see what happens. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/sartesian%40earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Report on French Strike
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Strikes are continuing-- SNCF reports 40% absenteeism yesterday, and I think 25% today. Petroleum and refinery workers are still out. Dan... any update? - Original Message - From: Greg McDonald gregm...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Eva Golinger, narconews, upsidedownworld, EcuadorSolidarity Network
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == If you read the report that I read, that Eva Golinger submitted as evidence, and if you read the article of hers that I read, then it should be clear to you as it is to me that she attempted to determine a 6 degrees of separation that actually would link CONAIE to funds provided by the NED. That was clearly her intent. She had not evidence of such funds being distributed to CONAIE but she clearly implied that CONAIE due to its proximity, or association with associates of associates of those who did receive such funds was acting in the objective interest of imperialism in their refusal to climb on the Correa bandwagon. That's the real issue. Not whether she explicitly calls CONAIE a puppet of imperialism, but what she implies, what she intends by producing a report that is evidence of nothing and attempting to link that report to CONAIE's disagreement with Correa. Is there a need to reproduce the article from Golinger that was cited here one more time to verify that? That's not hard to do. - Original Message - From: stansfield smith stansfieldsm...@yahoo.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Obviously Golinger didn't write anything different from what she wrote on this list. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Positive development in Ecuador?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == And I wonder would the nations of Latin America forming this anti-imperialist army demand the withdrawal of all imperialist occupying forces from places like Haiti, or Africa, including their own, and those of friendly neighbors not part of the anti-imperialist unified command if say Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Uruguay decide, in the interest of national self-determination to maintain a military separate and apart from the proposed unified command? I think it's wonderful to dream of a unified anti-imperialist command. I think it will prove impossible for such a command to function in any other way except as a police force against workers without abolishing the bourgeoisie of the various anti-imperialist countries. - Original Message - From: Greg McDonald gregm...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Positive development in Ecuador? Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] National armies in Latin America (please, Mark L, help) [was Re: Positive development in Ecuador?]
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The Prussian-German model was the model [sometimes fused with some elements of French military organization]that was indeed adapted by some Latin American countries in the late 19th and early 20the centuries. - Original Message - From: Mark Lause markala...@gmail.com Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Positive development in Ecuador?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I certainly don't want to damage Manuel's reputation by endorsing his view but wow, that's about as succint a presentation of the actual contradictions facing social revolution in Latin America, and the necessary resolution of those contradictions, that I've ever come across. - Original Message - From: Manuel Barrera mtom...@hotmail.com It is a formula for national bourgeois regional hegemony At Best and imperialist co-dependency at worst. Manuel Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 84, Issue 30
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I don't think the issue is whether or not policies can alleviate, shorten, mitigate a crisis, or even prevent the complete collapse of capitalism. Obviously, given what we just witnessed, certain aspects of crisis, for the bourgeoisie, can be mitigated, and a complete collapse can be avoided. Capitalism doesn't fall over from its own dead weight. It needs to be kicked. That's why we wear these boots. Regarding the New Deal, again the issue is not if those policies had accompanied, or even precipitated a recovery from the trough of the depression. With or without a New Deal, capitalism would have been capable of creating a recovery from the trough of the depression. The issue isn't even could the New Deal have worked without the advent of WW2. The real issue is could any recovery with or without the New Deal have prevented, obviated the NEED for World War 2 on the part of capitalism. And the answer to that is, no. No recovery that would have prevented WW2 was possible. - Original Message - From: michael perelman michael.perelm...@gmail.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [Marxism] Marxism Digest, Vol 84, Issue 30 Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ecuador: Air Force and Navy ReluctantlyBacked President
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Right, and pace Stansfield, the statements of Sept 30 do not show that CONAIE supported the coup. The statements and actions of CONAIE on Sept 30 show that it did not support the coup. - Original Message - From: Louis Proyect l...@panix.com To: sartes...@earthlink.net Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ecuador: Air Force and Navy Reluctantly BackedPresident
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Propaganda for the next coup? Why? Because Correa really hasn't invited international mining companies to take stakes in traditional homeland areas of the indigenous peoples? Because Correa really hasn't arrested leaders of indigenous organizations? Because Correa really hasn't used the police to break up demonstration of people opposed to his policies on mining, water, resources etc? Oh... and yes, there is a danger of another coup attempt. Just as there was the danger of the coup attempts against Allende, against the MNR in Bolivia, as there is that danger in Bolivia. But you know what? The ones who warned of that danger were some of the same people warning against the danger of mindlessly supporting the Popular Unity popular front in Chile, the MNR in Bolivia back then, and the MAS in Bolivia now. Let's just say if there is another coup attempt, whether successful or not, the people who do more to enable the success of such a coup are those people who support, endorse, uncritically proclaim Correa as a revolutionary a nationalist an anti-imperialist, and not the people who have in the past and continue to agitate for independence from this or that version of popular unity. That popular unity is simply subordination of the prospects for anti-capitalist social revolution to capitalism. - Original Message - From: Fred Feldman ffeld...@bellatlantic.net It is propaganda for the next coup wherever it is presented, whether on the Marxism List or the Latin American media. Greg now assures us that there is no threat of a US-backed coup because Correa doesn't present any problem for imperialism. I have heard this song from left critics many times before -- about Allende, Goulart, Isabel Peron, Aristide, and others. Let's just say it is not a prediction to be relied on. Of course, even if a coup happens, even if it is successful, Greg does not have to acknowledge this. He can always just tell himself and us that a bunch of underpaid workers in uniform just seized the presidential palace and rid us of the tyrant. Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ecuador to move to the Left?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Meanwhile the Financial Times quotes Ecuador's production minister, Nathalie Cely, as stating: It has been misunderstood in the past that we only believe in the role of the state. We really believe in a vibrant private sector, but a private sector that fulfills all its obligations, and labor obligations. Right, move to the left-- to a private sector that fulfills all its obligations. Who said anything about neo-liberal? Social-democratic might be more accurate. - Original Message - From: michael a. lebowitz mlebo...@sfu.ca In this interview with EFE published yesterday, René Ramírez, National Secretary of Planning and Development, indicates that the government will move to the left after the attempted coup. The government, he said, would not make concessions to the opposition but would radicalize its political project (in Correa's words). According to Ramirez (in charge of this), We want to have a much more progressive government, more turned to the left, Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ecuador to move to the Left?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == That's funny, I think the virtual left is the left that talks about national self-determination and self-determination for oppressed peoples except when such oppressed peoples, such oppressed indigenous nations actually try to exercise self-determination. I think the virtual left is the left that clings to coattails of pseudo-populists. - Original Message - From: michael a. lebowitz mlebo...@sfu.ca Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.econ.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
