Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Correction: "Greenstein issued statements condemning the condemnation of
Weir" should read "Greenstein issued a statement condemning the defense of
Weir".
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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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I have managed to make my way to a computer and decided to just ignore
Jeff.

The two issues I mentioned that I take with some of Greenstein's writings
(but not this one in particular) -- witch-hunts for anti-Semitism and
ethnocentrism -- are as follows.

Greenstein was one of a number of liberal and pseudo-left bloggers who
showed up on Stanford SJP's page attempting to rationalize the cancellation
of the Palestinian refugee event, ostensibly because Alison Weir had shown
up to support the event, but actually because of an argument about whether
or not it was appropriate (given the repressive campus climate) for the
refugees to challenge Israel's "right to exist". We have already discussed
this incident in depth and I would refer comrades to this particular post
in which I compiled all of the relevant links:
https://www.mail-archive.com/marxism%40lists.csbs.utah.edu/msg16512.html

Since that time, Greenstein appears to have deleted a number of his own
posts on the Facebook page, including those in which another commentator
challenged him by calling attention to (groundless) accusations of
anti-Semitism against Greenstein from Zionists in the UK, as well as
Greenstein's support for Corbyn against such allegations. This is an
important point: Corbyn was being slandered as an anti-Semite for having
visited a small, pro-Palestinian community org in the UK ten years prior in
which one of the members was an obscure Holocaust denier named Paul Eisen.

After the original Alison Weir debacle (when the heads of two
pro-Palestinian orgs, JVP and USCEIO, put out statements alleging Alison
Weir to be unacceptably tolerating of anti-Semitism), there was a massive
backlash from the rank-and-file of both of those organizations, along with
a number of prominent left people (Richard Falk, Joel Kovel, Sunaina Maira,
Cindy Sheehan, David Rovics, and others): stopdivisiveattacks.wordpress.com
.

Almost immediately after this petition was started, Greenstein issued
statements condemning the condemnation of Weir, and managed to comb through
the list of hundreds of names and cherry-picked out the same Paul Eisen

(who is not one of the prominent "VIPs" listed at the top of the petition,
but one of the hundreds of names from common activists). What's more, he
later eulogized one of Alison Weir's most ardent supporters, Hedy Epstein.
Epstein, a Holocaust survivor and a civil rights activist, had worked with
Alison Weir extensively, traveled to Palestine with Weir, and organized an
event featuring Weir as the speaker
 *after the
accusations* from JVP and USCEIO. Epstein is also one of the "VIPs" listed
in the petition in defense of Weir. And yet Hedy is praised by Greenstein

as someone who knew that racism is bad, etc.

As I mentioned prior, Greenstein has also had the audacity to compare
 Richard
Falk, the former UN Special Rapporteur to Palestine to Nazi philosopher
Martin Heidegger. He makes the same accusation against Falk that were made
against Weir, namely being an apologist for anti-Semitism.

Greenstein's worst comments of course, were saved for Counter-Punch. Again,
we have already discussed on this list the absurd "statistics"
 that
Greenstein compiled to allege that Counter-Punch is part of some sort of
Nazi infiltration politics. He similarly smears Louis as an ex-Marxist
(apparently for hosting the piece I wrote about the accusations against
Weir). That is not to say that Counter-Punch has not, in fact, fucked up
occasionally (such as by publishing Diana Johnstone's awful commentary
about immigration or by granting space to a small number of unknowns to
promote conspiracy theories). But it is quite another to reduce the entire
publication to a Nazi rag and call on leftists to boycott it, let alone
citing statistics produced by a crank.

In short, Greenstein's accusations of anti-Semitism are all over the place.
He defends Corbyn from an associational attack based on having visted Paul
Eisen, and then smears the pro-Weir petition for the same reason. He
condemns Weir as an anti-Semite while praising one of her most ardent
supporters as a committed anti-racist. He defends that supporter, who
helped organize events for Weir, while attempting to rationalize shutting
down a Palestinian refugee's event ostensibly because of Weir's support
for/presence at the 

Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Paul and others interested in a longer discussion can contact me off list
about my personal disagreements over some of Greenstein's writings, I have
no intention of feeding Jeff's trolling.

On Monday, July 11, 2016, Jeff via Marxism 
wrote:

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>
> On 2016-07-11 19:54, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>>
>> [Tony Gre] does not do so in this
>> particular piece but has used ethnocentric rhetoric in other writings
>> portraying the Palestinian struggle as an internal Jewish community issue
>>
>
>  has in turn informed his accusations of
>
>> anti-Semitism against Richard Falk, Counter-Punch, and others
>>
>
> I am not at a computer but I can prepare a more substantive reply later.
>>
>
>
> Yes, I'm waiting for that answer too, though I'm also waiting for
> substantiation of "witchhunts for
> anti-Semitism and racist privileging of Jewish voices" as also charged by
> Amith. I think it's rather disgusting that a person not on this list can
> just be lied about without accountability. Perhaps that happens more than I
> know about, but when it's someone whose writings/record I am familiar with,
> then I'm not going to just remain silent when I see them wronged in this
> way!
>
> Also, I do not believe Greenstein, or anyone else I know of, has accused
> Counterpunch of antisemitism. The last time I mentioned Counterpunch in a
> post I specifically noted that they were NOT tolerant of antisemitism and
> removed an antisemitic article when they got around to reading it (after
> publishing it on the web). The problem with Counterpunch is that they lean
> toward a left-right alliance which makes them willing to publish
> right-wingers attempting to appeal to leftist causes. In some cases these
> right wingers are openly antisemitic (like in that case, or where they
> published Atzmon himself) but more often they are just allied with
> antisemites. And as has been pointed out, the biggest danger in this regard
> isn't antisemitism itself (promoting harm to Jews) but tarring the
> Palestinians with that label thus completing Israel's primary propaganda
> campaign.
>
> - Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[Jeff via Marxism]

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On 2016-07-11 19:54, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:


[Tony Gre] does not do so in this
particular piece but has used ethnocentric rhetoric in other writings
portraying the Palestinian struggle as an internal Jewish community 
issue


 has in turn informed his accusations of

anti-Semitism against Richard Falk, Counter-Punch, and others


I am not at a computer but I can prepare a more substantive reply 
later.



Yes, I'm waiting for that answer too, though I'm also waiting for 
substantiation of "witchhunts for
anti-Semitism and racist privileging of Jewish voices" as also charged 
by Amith. I think it's rather disgusting that a person not on this list 
can just be lied about without accountability. Perhaps that happens more 
than I know about, but when it's someone whose writings/record I am 
familiar with, then I'm not going to just remain silent when I see them 
wronged in this way!


Also, I do not believe Greenstein, or anyone else I know of, has accused 
Counterpunch of antisemitism. The last time I mentioned Counterpunch in 
a post I specifically noted that they were NOT tolerant of antisemitism 
and removed an antisemitic article when they got around to reading it 
(after publishing it on the web). The problem with Counterpunch is that 
they lean toward a left-right alliance which makes them willing to 
publish right-wingers attempting to appeal to leftist causes. In some 
cases these right wingers are openly antisemitic (like in that case, or 
where they published Atzmon himself) but more often they are just allied 
with antisemites. And as has been pointed out, the biggest danger in 
this regard isn't antisemitism itself (promoting harm to Jews) but 
tarring the Palestinians with that label thus completing Israel's 
primary propaganda campaign.


- Jeff








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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[Paul Flewers via Marxism]

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Re ARG's comments. In what way does Tony Greenstein's criticisms of Zionism and
the state of Israel constitute an 'ethnocentric perspective'? 

Kindly explain yourself.

Paul F
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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[Jeff via Marxism]

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At 12:11 10-07-16 -0700, A.R. G via Marxism wrote: 
>
>I already answered Jeff's concerns in a separate post

Oh, I must have an email problem and didn't get that post! Perhaps someone
on this list could please forward me the email where he documents
Greenstein's "witchhunting" of antisemites and "racist privileging of
Jewish voices like his own." Otherwise I believe he still owes Greenstein
an apology and owes this list an apology for making statements that he
cannot actually justify.

- Jeff

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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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I already answered Jeff's concerns in a separate post when Ken asked. For
reasons I have already articulated I consider Jeff to be a troll and have
no intention of engaging him further.

-- 
- Amith
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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[Jeff via Marxism]

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Usually when an article is posted to this list, people will respond with
disagreements or comments concerning the article's contents. Of course,
even when there is no disagreement, one has the right to change the subject
and discuss some other issue involving the same author, as Amith has
treated us to:

At 23:06 09-07-16 -0700, A.R. G via Marxism wrote:
>
>Greenstein . mixes his analysis with witchhunts for
>anti-Semitism and racist privileging of Jewish voices like his own.

I wish Greenstein were on this list so he could just respond directly, but
since he isn't I'll speak up right now in his defense, and challenge Amith
to back up charges that he is so quick to throw around. After all, these
are clearly not actual "positions" that Greenstein takes, so the burden of
proof is on Amith to point to Greenstein's behaviour or writings (easy
enough to find on the internet!) to back up the charge. If (as I believe)
he cannot, then I'd expect him to post a retraction and apology to the
wronged individual. 

The charge of "racist privileging" itself borders on the absurd. But if it
had any truth, there would certainly be something concrete to point to.

The charge of "witchhunts for anti-Semitism" I can take a bit more
seriously, partly because Amith has made the same idiotic charge against
myself. It implies that Greenstein (and I) has a preoccupation with
antisemitism in a world which, in this era of history and in most places,
Jewish communities do not particularly face racist attacks.

But of course we know what Amith is worried about is us finding antisemites
within the Palestine solidarity movement. I certainly don't believe
Greenstein (nor myself) has engaged in a "witchhunt" of any sort. But when
right-wingers are found to be promoting their campaigns and organizations
AT THE EXPENSE of the Palestinians, or interjecting their politics into the
solidarity movement under the guise of being defenders of Palestine, then
OF COURSE it's proper to identify that danger. Unsurprisingly, those
right-wingers are often openly antisemitic or friendly to antisemites.

When asked by Ken, Amith concedes that Gilad Atzmon should be shunned,
calling him a "nutjob" (as if a person's mental state makes their public
actions more or less objectionable). I believe there was at least one other
right-winger in the UK scene that Greenstein helped expose and isolate. But
referring to a "witchhunt" implies filing UNJUST or exaggerated charges
against someone. Now Amith, name ONE PERSON who has been unjustly accused
of being right-wing  (or antisemitic) by Greenstein!

When Amith can answer that, then we can begin a discussion about
"witchhunts." Otherwise Amith owes this list a retraction and the maligned
an apology.

There is also the irony (perhaps this is what pissed me off enough to write
this reply) that there IS a witchhunt against supposed antisemitism in
which Tony Greenstein and other leftists in the British Labor Party
(notably Ken Livingston) are TARGETS. Greenstein (among many others) has
fought against attempts to liken antizionism to antisemitism, which of
course is routinely used by the right to smear Palestine and her defenders.
If Amith's real concern was about "witchhunts," then you'd expect him to be
rushing to Greenstein's defence, rather than turning the accusation around.

(Of course this isn't just about Greenstein, but Amith has made similar
accusations against entire organizations which he has been unable to
provide evidence for. But let's keep this simple and just find a single
case of "witchhunting" by a named author who Amith felt compelled to apply
that label to even when he had no disagreement with that persons article
that was posted.)

- Jeff


>>
>> https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/08/15/israel-worlds-most-racist-state/

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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Also, the witch-hunts I was referring to were the Stanford incident, the
Weir split, his Nazi infiltration accusations against CounterPunch, as well
as (some of, but not all of) his criticisms of the Naturei Karta, who made
a lapse in judgment by defending Hungarian fascists a few years ago.

After he republished the fabricated stats about CP I stopped seeking out
his writings. I thought his review of Achcar's book about the Holocaust was
quite good.


-- 
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Re: [Marxism] Israel - world's most racist state?

[A.R. G via Marxism]

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Gilad Atzmon is low-hanging fruit. Many of the other activists I know
believe he is an infiltrator. I think he is simply someone with "issues".

I think it is worse that on occasion, Greenstein and a few others that
share his ethnocentric perspective have tried to reduce all of their
critics to Atzmonites (some are; I am not).


-- 
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