Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 A BIG can...
-Curt

On Thursday, January 9, 2020, 2:00:20 AM EST, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Daisy Cutter:  LZ in a can.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Peter Frederick via Mercedes
> Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:18 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Peter Frederick 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up
> 
> I was told back in the day that one of those 16" HE shells did a fine job of
> opening up a helicopter landing zone.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

And still impressive.   If I were some tin pot dictator, and the BB-61 
(or any BB)  pulled up outside my door, I'd be a little nervous.



Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
January 9, 2020 at 12:48 AM
Obsolete for sea battles. Still useful as amphibious artillery.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Daisy Cutter:  LZ in a can.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Peter Frederick via Mercedes
> Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 5:18 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Peter Frederick 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up
> 
> I was told back in the day that one of those 16" HE shells did a fine job of
> opening up a helicopter landing zone.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Obsolete for sea battles.  Still useful as amphibious artillery.

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Peter Frederick via Mercedes
> Sent: Monday, January 06, 2020 11:17 PM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List 
> Cc: Peter Frederick 
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up
> 
> Battleships were obsolete in 1941, I really don't think anything has happened
> since then that would return them to utility!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Battleships were obsolete in 1941, I really don't think anything has happened 
since then that would return them to utility!
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

That makes sense.   I never bought the blame when it happened, and I 
didn't buy the BS they had in the accident display onboard.


at any rate, it led to the mothballing again of the BB fleet.


Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 9:50 PM
One of the forward turrets on the Iowa was burned out by a cordite 
flashover in the 80's, 86 or 87 I think. I remember it being A, but I 
could easily be wrong. Killed everyone in the turret and damned near 
blew the ship up. Don't know if they lifted the turret and set it back 
on the centerline or not, it was something like 10 degrees off affer 
the "accident" (which wasn't an accident, it was the logical result of 
defeating safety equpiment).


That one will never be open to the public I suspect.

That "accident" was a long a sordid story -- the Navy blamed a kid 
local to Souther Illinois, where I was in graduate school. Hard for 
the kid to argue back as all that was left of him was the soles of his 
anti-static shoes stuck to the deck.


The info I got on what likely happened came from the old guy I sailed 
with who spent his whole working career at the ammunition plant down 
the road in the Crab Orchard Navy ammunition plant. To whit, the 
propellant was ancient nitrocellulose, manufactured in the late 
forty's or early 50's, and stored improperly at least once (in un-air 
conditioned barges at Norfolk during overhaul) and possibly 
contaminated with seawater during the same time period. Nitrocellulose 
is very, very flammable under any circumstances, and it becomes more 
unstable and unpredictable with age and deterioration. It is sewn into 
silk bags with a small pouch of black powder in the center of each end 
so that there is no need to check which end is loaded. That pouch, of 
course, leaks powder dust and is ripped open for the ignitor on the 
last charge into the gun.


It eventually became known that the Captain of the Iowa was "seeing 
how fast the guns would fire" -- in spite of the regulations requiring 
only a single set of charges in the turret at any one time and the 
interlocks on the charge lifts that only allow one full charge at a 
time out of the magazine. The hazards of cordite (nitrocelluose) 
charges and fire of any kind have been well known since WWI, when both 
the Germans and the Allies lost ships due to magazine explosions 
resulting from fires in the ammunition lifts and handling rooms from 
minor turret penetrations. Seems the Navy "forgot" that in this case.


I knew what had happened when the news reports said "and I looked into 
the handling room and saw the remains of burned charges everywhere" -- 
rule is only one set of charges per gun in the handling room open at 
one time, either in the actual handling room or in the elevator, and 
the charges are to stay inside their flame proof containers (brass or 
fire inhibited cardboard) until loaded loaded into the lifts precisely 
to prevent a fire progressing down the lift and into the magazine.


One final thing set the whole fire/explosion off -- my friend surmized 
that the guns were either overcharged or the charges were improperly 
loaded resulting in the nitrocellulose (which looks like "wheel" pasta 
in a tube about the size of your thumb) being crushed against the 
shell in the barrel. Any spark from the poor condition charge pieces 
would ignite the charge while it was being rammed home behind the 
shell with the breech open. Also possible the barrel wasn't properly 
quenched with water and compressed air -- a smoldering bit of silk or 
residual propellant would easily ignite the black powder sifted all 
over the charges -- they were, after all, at least 30 years old and 
had been handled quite a bit. However it was ignited, this is exactly 
what happened -- a full set of charges in one barrel ignited during 
the loading process, igniting other open charges "lying around in the 
turret" -- remember, there aren't supposed to be ANY charges other 
than the ones in the loading tray -- and the resulting flash fire 
ignited the charges in the lift -- again, there are NOT supposed to be 
any charges in the lift, one set per gun only from shot to shot.


A couple marines in the magazine flooded it when the fire alarm went 
off, resulting in their death but preventing the ship exploding. The 
fire in the lifts and handling room jacked the deck under the turret 
up enough to see from photographs from above and jammed the turret 
(most likely blew it a couple feet into the air and the resultant drop 
crushed the turret ring and bearings).


Boom.

Pretty nasty to blame the whole thing on some poor kid who'd been 
incinerated.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

16" dummy shell and 6 dummy powder bags.


Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 7:32 PM
What about the 16"?
We still have ammo for that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxRBP2ZKUZY

_


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Missile, goes Boom.
Bomb dropped from airplane goes Boom
16" shell goes Boom
Rocket from airplane goes Boom

All make a big hole in the ground.

different means of delivery, but the result is the same.  only some 
variance in size of the crater.


16" dummy shell, and 3 powder bag canister: 
http://leadingchange.com/USSIOWA/IMG_3521.JPG



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 9:53 PM
The were not "bombing" Baghdad with shells fired from a 16" gun. The 
Iowa class was upgraded with missile batteries during the 80's, 
different weapon. Max range for might be a little more than 20km, but 
not by much for a gun. Missiles are another story altogether.



Yep, and that extends the range beyond 20-24 miles.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

The were not "bombing" Baghdad with shells fired from a 16" gun.  The Iowa 
class was upgraded with missile batteries during the 80's, different weapon.  
Max range for might be a little more than 20km, but not by much for a gun.  
Missiles are another story altogether.
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

One of the forward turrets on the Iowa was burned out by a cordite flashover in 
the 80's, 86 or 87 I think.  I remember it being A, but I could easily be 
wrong.  Killed everyone in the turret and damned near blew the ship up.  Don't 
know if they lifted the turret and set it back on the centerline or not, it was 
something like 10 degrees off affer the "accident" (which wasn't an accident, 
it was the logical result of defeating safety equpiment).

That one will never be open to the public I suspect.

That "accident" was a long a sordid story -- the Navy blamed a kid local to 
Souther Illinois, where I was in graduate school.  Hard for the kid to argue 
back as all that was left of him was the soles of his anti-static shoes stuck 
to the deck.

The info I got on what likely happened came from the old guy I sailed with who 
spent his whole working career at the ammunition plant down the road in the 
Crab Orchard Navy ammunition plant.  To whit, the propellant was ancient 
nitrocellulose, manufactured in the late forty's or early 50's, and stored 
improperly at least once (in un-air conditioned barges at Norfolk during 
overhaul) and possibly contaminated with seawater during the same time period.  
Nitrocellulose is very, very flammable under any circumstances, and it becomes 
more unstable and unpredictable with age and deterioration.  It is sewn into 
silk bags with a small pouch of black powder in the center of each end so that 
there is no need to check which end is loaded.  That pouch, of course, leaks 
powder dust and is ripped open for the ignitor on the last charge into the gun.

It eventually became known that the Captain of the Iowa was "seeing how fast 
the guns would fire" -- in spite of the regulations requiring only a single set 
of charges in the turret at any one time and the interlocks on the charge lifts 
that only allow one full charge at a time out of the magazine.  The hazards of 
cordite (nitrocelluose) charges and fire of any kind have been well known since 
WWI, when both the Germans and the Allies lost ships due to magazine explosions 
resulting from fires in the ammunition lifts and handling rooms from minor 
turret penetrations.  Seems the Navy "forgot" that in this case.

I knew what had happened when the news reports said "and I looked into the 
handling room and saw the remains of burned charges everywhere" -- rule is only 
one set of charges per gun in the handling room open at one time, either in the 
actual handling room or in the elevator, and the charges are to stay inside 
their flame proof containers (brass or fire inhibited cardboard) until loaded 
loaded into the lifts precisely to prevent a fire progressing down the lift and 
into the magazine.  

One final thing set the whole fire/explosion off -- my friend surmized that the 
guns were either overcharged or the charges were improperly loaded resulting in 
the nitrocellulose (which looks like "wheel" pasta in a tube about the size of 
your thumb) being crushed against the shell in the barrel.  Any spark from the 
poor condition charge pieces would ignite the charge while it was being rammed 
home behind the shell with the breech open.  Also possible the barrel wasn't 
properly quenched with water and compressed air -- a smoldering bit of silk or 
residual propellant would easily ignite the black powder sifted all over the 
charges -- they were, after all, at least 30 years old and had been handled 
quite a bit.  However it was ignited, this is exactly what happened -- a full 
set of charges in one barrel ignited during the loading process, igniting other 
open charges "lying around in the turret" -- remember, there aren't supposed to 
be ANY charges other than the ones in the loading tray -- and the resulting 
flash fire ignited the charges in the lift -- again, there are NOT supposed to 
be any charges in the lift, one set per gun only from shot to shot.  

A couple marines in the magazine flooded it when the fire alarm went off, 
resulting in their death but preventing the ship exploding.  The fire in the 
lifts and handling room jacked the deck under the turret up enough to see from 
photographs from above and jammed the turret (most likely blew it a couple feet 
into the air and the resultant drop crushed the turret ring and bearings).

Boom.

Pretty nasty to blame the whole thing on some poor kid who'd been incinerated.
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

1955 actually.    They show that one on the Iowa, beside #1 turret.


G Mann via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 6:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmOQs0ziSU

Training video for 16 inch gun operation.. circa WW2

Also see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0D-ulUrMIo


One turret on the BB-60 is open on most levels.   Very interesting.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Funny, but they were bombing bagdad from more than 20 miles away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armament_of_the_Iowa-class_battleship
Pay particular attention to the second paragraph.


Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 5:53 PM
Yup. Mechanical computers in the fire control station actually aim and 
fire the guns. I don't believe they were upgraded to electronic in the 
80's, but I don't know for sure.


No, there are no battleships left in the fleet. They still exist in 
the "mothball fleet" but I don't believe any are in service, nor are 
they likely to ever sail again. Far to expensive to upgrade past 
1960's standards, require enormous crews by moderns standards (3000 
men per ship) and useless for anything more than 20km away.


And, as everyone learned during WWII, rather badly vulnerable to 
torpedo hits (and modern torpedos are vastly harder hitting than WWII 
ones).


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

We just returned from a trip to see the BB-64, BB-55,  CV-10 (Yorktown) 
and the USS Laffey.   In May we went to the BB-61 and the CV-41 
(Midway)  and April, BB-60.  All very impressive!


USS Iowa  BB-61  I believe was released from "reserve" status for active 
duty this past summer.   It was on a special deal where it was 
"retired", and a museum but could be recalled by the Navy.   It is in 
San Pedro (LA) CA.   They are planning to move it and build a 
park/museum around it with other ships.   Send Money $$$ or  to help 
replace the teak deck.
USS New Jersey BB-62 is a museum ship in Jaime's territory.   He really 
should go through it if he has not done so.
USS Missouri, BB-63 Is a museum in Pearl Harbor.   I believe it is 
either under control of the Navy, or in some joint agreement with a 
foundation.
USS Wisconsin, BB-64 is a museum in Norfolk, at a museum called 
Nauticus.   We were told the USN runs the museum.   They make it 
difficult to find your way to the BB-64. Its teak deck was replaced in 
the 87-88 refit, but the teak is not being taken care of.   Shameful!


All four Iowa class ships were refitted to burn Diesel.   They have very 
little smell of bunker fuel.    But it is still there in some places.


USS Alabama, BB-60 is a museum in Mobile.   Below the deck, the force is 
still very strong with her.   (Smell of Bunker fuel)


USS North Carolina  BB-55 is in Wilmington, NC as a museum.   She is a 
special ship, among special ships.   She's been a museum long enough 
that the smell of Bunker is not that strong.   THey'ce cut out a number 
of knee knockers, so she is more accommodating for old knees.   Someone 
has been holystoning the forward part of the teak deck.


USS Texas  BB-35 is 106 years old.   She is moored in the Houston Ship 
Channel and has been a museum since 1947 or so.


The Main turrets on the Iowa are not open.  At least one main turret on 
the Alabama and Wisconsin are open to go inside.
BB-55 through BB-64 all have 16 inchers, but the Iowa class has longer 
barrels and longer range.


Each Projectile on the Iowa class Big guns is backed by 6 bags of black 
powder, each weighing 110 lb.   Each turret on the North Carolina takes 
i believe 47 people to run.    77 to 94 people are needed on the Iowa 
class to run one turret.   one 16 incher on the Iowa weighs 267,900 
lbs.   One Iowa class turret weighs as much as one complete WWII era 
destroyer.

Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 4:22 PM
Sadly they are either floating museums or in mothballs again, and I do
believe they are no longer viable to be recalled back into service. They
were enormously expensive to operate (steam plants burning bunker oil, and
any casualty to the propulsion plant would pretty much require custom
fabrication of replacement parts) so after the evil empire fell apart, the
Navy was eager to retire them as quickly as they could. Tragedy on the
Iowa hastened retirement.

-
Max
Charleston SC


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 4:58 PM archer75--- via Mercedes <
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Those computers fill a small room.   They stand about 4' tall.    They 
are as accurate as any digital computer, and have the added bonus that 
the smoke NEVER comes out!   THey will ALWAYS work.  USN did consider 
replacing them in 1987-88 refit, ( I was told aboard the USS Iowa, 
BB-61) but decided they were more reliable than digital,  and at least 
as accurate.



Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 4:21 PM
As I recall they used mechanical fire control computers to aim the 
guns. They compensated for all kinds of variables including ship 
motion, powder load, atmospherics, and such.


--FT
Sent from iPhone




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

What about the 16"?
We still have ammo for that. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxRBP2ZKUZY

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[G Mann via Mercedes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OmOQs0ziSU

Training video for 16 inch gun operation.. circa WW2

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 4:58 PM Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Yup.  Mechanical computers in the fire control station actually aim and
> fire the guns.  I don't believe they were upgraded to electronic in the
> 80's, but I don't know for sure.
>
> No, there are no battleships left in the fleet.  They still exist in the
> "mothball fleet" but I don't believe any are in service, nor are they
> likely to ever sail again.  Far to expensive to upgrade past 1960's
> standards, require enormous crews by moderns standards (3000 men per ship)
> and useless for anything more than 20km away.
>
> And, as everyone learned during WWII, rather badly vulnerable to torpedo
> hits (and modern torpedos are vastly harder hitting than WWII ones).
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> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

roughly 2000 to 2700 lb. They are 3-4' tall, and most are around 4.


archer75--- via Mercedes 
January 6, 2020 at 12:49 AM
Awesome! Sixteen inches is a huge projectile.
Gerry





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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Yup.  Mechanical computers in the fire control station actually aim and fire 
the guns.  I don't believe they were upgraded to electronic in the 80's, but I 
don't know for sure.

No, there are no battleships left in the fleet.  They still exist in the 
"mothball fleet" but I don't believe any are in service, nor are they likely to 
ever sail again.  Far to expensive to upgrade past 1960's standards, require 
enormous crews by moderns standards (3000 men per ship) and useless for 
anything more than 20km away.

And, as everyone learned during WWII, rather badly vulnerable to torpedo hits 
(and modern torpedos are vastly harder hitting than WWII ones).
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Sadly they are either floating museums or in mothballs again, and I do
believe they are no longer viable to be recalled back into service.  They
were enormously expensive to operate (steam plants burning bunker oil, and
any casualty to the propulsion plant would pretty much require custom
fabrication of replacement parts) so after the evil empire fell apart, the
Navy was eager to retire them as quickly as they could.  Tragedy on the
Iowa hastened retirement.

-
Max
Charleston SC


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 4:58 PM archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Good story! The accuracy of the rolling battleship miles from the target
> is remarkable. Are battleships still part of the fleet?
> Gerry
>
> On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 09:58:38 -0500
> Meade Dillon via Mercedes  wrote:
>
> > Yes indeed, the shells weighed about as much as a VW beetle, IIRC a range
> > of over 30 miles (well over the horizon).
> >
> > I read a very impressive / humorous account of an Army patrol in Vietnam
> > war that called for artillery support during an engagement with enemy
> > forces.  Their first call to the primary artillery support unit got no
> > response.  The secondary and other "normal" back-up artillery support
> units
> > also could not respond immediately.  In desperation and in danger of
> being
> > over run, they put out a general call for any available artillery
> support,
> > and the response came from one of the Iowa class battleships.  The Army
> > patrol did not recognize the call sign but proceeded to give their
> > coordinates and requested fire, not realizing they were calling in
> 16-inch
> > high explosive shells.  Just one round of fire from that battleship
> > completely destroyed the enemy attack but also was so close to the Army
> > patrol that they were covered with falling dirt and debris and absolutely
> > stunned with the result of the shelling.  In awe of the destruction of
> the
> > enemy and near death experience for the soldiers, they asked some
> questions
> > and then realized that a battleship had responded to their call.  The
> > battleship was eager to provide another round of fire, but was assured
> that
> > the first round had been more than sufficient.
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 1:50 AM archer75--- via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Awesome! Sixteen inches is a huge projectile.
> > > Gerry
> > >
> > >
> > >
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

I was told back in the day that one of those 16" HE shells did a fine job of 
opening up a helicopter landing zone.

The AP shells, on the other hand, often went right through light ships 
(merchant marine converted carriers for instance) and exploded in the water on 
the far side.  Bunker busters for sure, probably penetrate a dozen or so feet 
into hard soil before exploding.
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

As I recall they used mechanical fire control computers to aim the guns. They 
compensated for all kinds of variables including ship motion, powder load, 
atmospherics, and such. 

--FT
Sent from iPhone

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:58 PM, archer75--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> Good story! The accuracy of the rolling battleship miles from the target is 
> remarkable. Are battleships still part of the fleet?
> Gerry
> 
>> On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 09:58:38 -0500
>> Meade Dillon via Mercedes  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes indeed, the shells weighed about as much as a VW beetle, IIRC a range
>> of over 30 miles (well over the horizon).
>> 
>> I read a very impressive / humorous account of an Army patrol in Vietnam
>> war that called for artillery support during an engagement with enemy
>> forces.  Their first call to the primary artillery support unit got no
>> response.  The secondary and other "normal" back-up artillery support units
>> also could not respond immediately.  In desperation and in danger of being
>> over run, they put out a general call for any available artillery support,
>> and the response came from one of the Iowa class battleships.  The Army
>> patrol did not recognize the call sign but proceeded to give their
>> coordinates and requested fire, not realizing they were calling in 16-inch
>> high explosive shells.  Just one round of fire from that battleship
>> completely destroyed the enemy attack but also was so close to the Army
>> patrol that they were covered with falling dirt and debris and absolutely
>> stunned with the result of the shelling.  In awe of the destruction of the
>> enemy and near death experience for the soldiers, they asked some questions
>> and then realized that a battleship had responded to their call.  The
>> battleship was eager to provide another round of fire, but was assured that
>> the first round had been more than sufficient.
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 1:50 AM archer75--- via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Awesome! Sixteen inches is a huge projectile.
>>> Gerry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> ___
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>> 
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>> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Good story! The accuracy of the rolling battleship miles from the target is 
remarkable. Are battleships still part of the fleet?
Gerry

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 09:58:38 -0500
Meade Dillon via Mercedes  wrote:

> Yes indeed, the shells weighed about as much as a VW beetle, IIRC a range
> of over 30 miles (well over the horizon).
> 
> I read a very impressive / humorous account of an Army patrol in Vietnam
> war that called for artillery support during an engagement with enemy
> forces.  Their first call to the primary artillery support unit got no
> response.  The secondary and other "normal" back-up artillery support units
> also could not respond immediately.  In desperation and in danger of being
> over run, they put out a general call for any available artillery support,
> and the response came from one of the Iowa class battleships.  The Army
> patrol did not recognize the call sign but proceeded to give their
> coordinates and requested fire, not realizing they were calling in 16-inch
> high explosive shells.  Just one round of fire from that battleship
> completely destroyed the enemy attack but also was so close to the Army
> patrol that they were covered with falling dirt and debris and absolutely
> stunned with the result of the shelling.  In awe of the destruction of the
> enemy and near death experience for the soldiers, they asked some questions
> and then realized that a battleship had responded to their call.  The
> battleship was eager to provide another round of fire, but was assured that
> the first round had been more than sufficient.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 1:50 AM archer75--- via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> > Awesome! Sixteen inches is a huge projectile.
> > Gerry
> >
> >
> >
> ___
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 09:58:38 -0500 Meade Dillon via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Yes indeed, the shells weighed about as much as a VW beetle, IIRC a
> range of over 30 miles (well over the horizon).

When I was in college, there was an article in the Los Angeles Times
which stated exactly that.


> I read a very impressive / humorous account of an Army patrol in Vietnam
> war that called for artillery support during an engagement with enemy
> forces.
>   
> The battleship was eager to provide another round of fire, but was
> assured that the first round had been more than sufficient.

Interesting story!


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Yes indeed, the shells weighed about as much as a VW beetle, IIRC a range
of over 30 miles (well over the horizon).

I read a very impressive / humorous account of an Army patrol in Vietnam
war that called for artillery support during an engagement with enemy
forces.  Their first call to the primary artillery support unit got no
response.  The secondary and other "normal" back-up artillery support units
also could not respond immediately.  In desperation and in danger of being
over run, they put out a general call for any available artillery support,
and the response came from one of the Iowa class battleships.  The Army
patrol did not recognize the call sign but proceeded to give their
coordinates and requested fire, not realizing they were calling in 16-inch
high explosive shells.  Just one round of fire from that battleship
completely destroyed the enemy attack but also was so close to the Army
patrol that they were covered with falling dirt and debris and absolutely
stunned with the result of the shelling.  In awe of the destruction of the
enemy and near death experience for the soldiers, they asked some questions
and then realized that a battleship had responded to their call.  The
battleship was eager to provide another round of fire, but was assured that
the first round had been more than sufficient.
-
Max
Charleston SC


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 1:50 AM archer75--- via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Awesome! Sixteen inches is a huge projectile.
> Gerry
>
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Awesome! Sixteen inches is a huge projectile.
Gerry
 
> Not very likely. I'm retired from Navy Reserve now. Retired from active duty 
> would be called before me. Army did that for the surge back in 2008, Navy did 
> not being back any retired that I know of, although they can always make 
> exceptions for "by name" recall if someone has a needed skill. They recalled 
> a bunch of retired folks when Reagan brought the battleships back out of 
> mothballs, for instance. There were no Gunner's Mates left who knew how to 
> operate those sixteen inch guns.
> 
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
> 
> Jan 5, 2020 7:42:39 AM archer75--- via Mercedes :
> 
> > Will you be called back if this gets into war?
> > Gerry
> > 
> > On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 09:23:15 -0500
> > Meade Dillon via Mercedes  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Wow!
> > > 
> > > https://apnews.com/5597ff0f046a67805cc233d5933a53ed
> > > 
> > > "BAGHDAD (AP) — The United States killed Iran’s top general and the
> > > architect of Tehran’s proxy wars in the Middle East in an airstrike at
> > > Baghdad’s international airport early on Friday, an attack that threatens
> > > to dramatically ratchet up tensions in the region.
> > > 
> > > The targeted killing of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the head of Iran’s elite
> > > Quds Force, ..." and a bunch of hand-wringing follows.
> > > -
> > > Max
> > > Charleston SC
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > > 
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > > 
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > arche...@embarqmail.com 
> > 
> > ___
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> > 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Max Dillon via Mercedes 
January 5, 2020 at 9:39 AM
 They recalled a bunch of retired folks when Reagan brought the 
battleships back out of mothballs, for instance. There were no 
Gunner's Mates left who knew how to operate those sixteen inch guns.


And they are mighty impressive 16 inchers!


Max Dillon
Charleston SC




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Here are links you might find interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(Iran)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d=imperialism+wiki

Manifest destiny was a widely held belief in the 19th-century United States 
that its settlers were destined to expand across North America. There are three 
basic themes to manifest destiny: ... The mission of the United States to 
redeem and remake the west in the image of agrarian America...snip

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d=doctrine+of+Manifest+Destiny+wiki

 
> > On Jan 3, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
> >  wrote:
> > We are still paying for allowing Churchill to talk us into overthrowing 
> > Mossadeh (sp), the duly elected Prime Minister of a democratic Iran in 
> > 1953.  Not the only time he stabbed us in the back, either, in his drive to 
> > re-create the British Empire.  All he needed was for the US to pay all the 
> > UK debt from WWI on, and free oil from Iran.  If the UK had to PAY for the 
> > oil for the fleet, it would sit in harbor with empty tanks
> > 
> > The root of the issue here is imperialism, not a few bad actors.  As I've 
> > figured out over the last five decades, blowing people up and burning down 
> > their houses usually results in radicalization, and that in turn leads to 
> > "asymmetric warfare" and eventual defeat.  
> > 
> > Far better to integrate economies and raise the standard of living.  Humans 
> > in general very rarely go to war against their own income and food supply, 
> > but are more than ready to defend them against someone, real or imagined, 
> > bent on taking them away.
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

Not very likely. I'm retired from Navy Reserve now. Retired from active duty 
would be called before me. Army did that for the surge back in 2008, Navy did 
not being back any retired that I know of, although they can always make 
exceptions for "by name" recall if someone has a needed skill. They recalled a 
bunch of retired folks when Reagan brought the battleships back out of 
mothballs, for instance. There were no Gunner's Mates left who knew how to 
operate those sixteen inch guns.

Max Dillon
Charleston SC

Jan 5, 2020 7:42:39 AM archer75--- via Mercedes :

> Will you be called back if this gets into war?
> Gerry
> 
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 09:23:15 -0500
> Meade Dillon via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> 
> > Wow!
> > 
> > https://apnews.com/5597ff0f046a67805cc233d5933a53ed
> > 
> > "BAGHDAD (AP) — The United States killed Iran’s top general and the
> > architect of Tehran’s proxy wars in the Middle East in an airstrike at
> > Baghdad’s international airport early on Friday, an attack that threatens
> > to dramatically ratchet up tensions in the region.
> > 
> > The targeted killing of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the head of Iran’s elite
> > Quds Force, ..." and a bunch of hand-wringing follows.
> > -
> > Max
> > Charleston SC
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > 
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > 
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> arche...@embarqmail.com 
> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[archer75--- via Mercedes]

Will you be called back if this gets into war?
Gerry

On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 09:23:15 -0500
Meade Dillon via Mercedes  wrote:

> Wow!
> 
> https://apnews.com/5597ff0f046a67805cc233d5933a53ed
> 
> "BAGHDAD (AP) — The United States killed Iran’s top general and the
> architect of Tehran’s proxy wars in the Middle East in an airstrike at
> Baghdad’s international airport early on Friday, an attack that threatens
> to dramatically ratchet up tensions in the region.
> 
> The targeted killing of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the head of Iran’s elite
> Quds Force, ..." and a bunch of hand-wringing follows.
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

All those reindeer passing gas  (driving around in their SUVs) caused it 
to warm up and be green and warm when Erik the Red settled the place.




Craig via Mercedes 
January 3, 2020 at 11:28 PM
On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 00:00:49 -0500 Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes
 wrote:


Quite the balmy day!

Indeed!

On the other side of the temperature scale (from my other list),

  We all saw the silly headlines about how Greenland was burning and
  sweltering last summer:
  
https://www.sciencealert.com/greenland-ice-sheet-just-poured-197-billion-tons-of-water-to-the-ocean-in-july

  But now it's winter and Greenland has just recorded its all-time low
  temperature of *-86.8 F* at Summit Station at 23:15 UTC 2 January
  2020, smashing beyond the previous record of -81.9 F.  I wonder what
  the headlines will be this time around.

  https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/obop/sum/met.html


Craig

  

On Jan 3, 2020, at 11:49 PM, G Mann via Mercedes
 wrote:

"Operation Black Glass" 
Start time is 0400 
Start Date is optional.
18,000 degrees for 11 seconds, followed by slow bake at 5,000 for days
following. Local winds may exceed 800 MPH with following over
pressure. Try not to stare at the bright light.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 4 Jan 2020 00:00:49 -0500 Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Quite the balmy day!

Indeed!

On the other side of the temperature scale (from my other list),

 We all saw the silly headlines about how Greenland was burning and
 sweltering last summer:
 
https://www.sciencealert.com/greenland-ice-sheet-just-poured-197-billion-tons-of-water-to-the-ocean-in-july

 But now it's winter and Greenland has just recorded its all-time low
 temperature of *-86.8 F* at Summit Station at 23:15 UTC 2 January
 2020, smashing beyond the previous record of -81.9 F.  I wonder what
 the headlines will be this time around.

 https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/obop/sum/met.html


Craig

 
> > On Jan 3, 2020, at 11:49 PM, G Mann via Mercedes
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > "Operation Black Glass" 
> > Start time is 0400 
> > Start Date is optional.
> > 18,000 degrees for 11 seconds, followed by slow bake at 5,000 for days
> > following. Local winds may exceed 800 MPH with following over
> > pressure. Try not to stare at the bright light.

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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Chuckles shows the results of inbreeding.   Lunatic moron: Chuckles the 
Clown.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
January 3, 2020 at 5:48 PM
I was watching a documentary on the UK, specifically the royals, and 
was surprised to learn about how Charles buddied up to the Arab states 
and promoted Muslims to the country. He apparently got a lot of “cred” 
in the Arab world, but the Queen Mum and Dad were apparently not happy.


-D





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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

you have to remember that Merkel, under the whipped topping, is a 
communist.   What the communists have been doing since about 1950, is 
destroying the culture and destabilizing countries form within.    Well, 
actually that is what they did in Russia in the 1910s.   Destabilize, 
get 2 factions fighting each other, then come in to the mess and offer 
"Stability"   Same for mao. Pretended to fight the japanese, then with 
the japanese gone, and the country in tatters, he rolled over the continent.


Merkel is just trying to ruin the EU so the communists can take it 
over.  But she does not see the evil she has unleashed, and that evil 
might destroy her plans.



Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes 
January 3, 2020 at 5:04 PM
Except that many of these neutral countries don’t let hoardes of 
Muslim “refugees” trample through their borders. Europe under Merkel 
has been decimated and destroyed permanently by this scourge.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Quite the balmy day!

--FT
Sent from iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 11:49 PM, G Mann via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> "Operation Black Glass" 
> Start time is 0400 
> Start Date is optional.
> 18,000 degrees for 11 seconds, followed by slow bake at 5,000 for days
> following. Local winds may exceed 800 MPH with following over pressure. Try
> not
> to stare at the bright light.
> 
> The 72 Perpetual virgins and the 300 "Pearly boys that don't bleed" are
> waiting..
> [look it up, it's in Quran and Hadith... the 73 virgins stay perpetual
> virgins, but the 3
> 00 pearly boys don't bleed. use your own logic to determine who gets
> the action.]
> 
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:30 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>> shoulda all been turned to glass by 0800 on Sept 12 2001.  Nothin there
>> anyone needs.
>> 
>>> Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>>> January 3, 2020 at 8:48 AM
>>> Good observations.
>>> 
>>> I say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. It’s the only
>>> way to be sure.
>>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[G Mann via Mercedes]

"Operation Black Glass" 
Start time is 0400 
Start Date is optional.
18,000 degrees for 11 seconds, followed by slow bake at 5,000 for days
following. Local winds may exceed 800 MPH with following over pressure. Try
not
to stare at the bright light.

The 72 Perpetual virgins and the 300 "Pearly boys that don't bleed" are
waiting..
[look it up, it's in Quran and Hadith... the 73 virgins stay perpetual
virgins, but the 3
00 pearly boys don't bleed. use your own logic to determine who gets
the action.]



On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 9:30 PM Curley McLain via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> shoulda all been turned to glass by 0800 on Sept 12 2001.  Nothin there
> anyone needs.
>
> > Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
> > January 3, 2020 at 8:48 AM
> > Good observations.
> >
> > I say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. It’s the only
> > way to be sure.
> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

which is why the whole place shoulda been glass on 08:01 on 12 Sept, 2001.


G Mann via Mercedes 
January 3, 2020 at 10:08 AM
All valid arguments. However, there is one factor not considered.
That factor is the imposition of Islam in the region, centuries ago.
Islam is a violent cult devoted to world conquest by any force available.
It is not now, nor has it ever been, a religion.
That factor has nothing to do with oil. Oil is only a resource to fund the
purchase of weapons to further the conquest of the world for Islam.

Ask any Muslim you meet this one question: "What will become of Islam?"
The answer will always be: "Islam will rule the world."

Take it from someone who lived in Mideast and worked for your 
government to

unravel the Gordian Knot for two decades.

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:53 AM Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Agreed.   When Saddam was fighting the aye ya toljas,  It was pretty 
close to the ideal.



Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
January 3, 2020 at 9:48 AM
Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.

It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if 
we wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle 
east can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact 
beyond that.


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

shoulda all been turned to glass by 0800 on Sept 12 2001.  Nothin there 
anyone needs.



Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
January 3, 2020 at 8:48 AM
Good observations.

I say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. It’s the only 
way to be sure.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Based on what I saw about him buddying up with the Arab states, I can’t imagine 
it was too upsetting.

-D


> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:52 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> I wonder how Charles felt about Dodi boinking Diana.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I was watching a documentary on the UK, specifically the royals, and was 
>> surprised to learn about how Charles buddied up to the Arab states and 
>> promoted Muslims to the country. He apparently got a lot of “cred” in the 
>> Arab world, but the Queen Mum and Dad were apparently not happy.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:45 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes France and UK are the worst. Thanks to the E.U. policies which are 
>>> dictated mostly by Germany, countries such as Italy and Greece and others 
>>> have been inundated by these people. Hungary was smart and finally closed 
>>> its borders.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
  wrote:
 
 You could say much the same for France or the UK, but the UK has been 
 doing this for a while based on colonialism..
 
 -D
 
 
> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  
> wrote:
> 
> Except that many of these neutral countries don’t let hoardes of Muslim 
> “refugees” trample through their borders. Europe under Merkel has been 
> decimated and destroyed permanently by this scourge.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> True. The Swiss really do it right. Nordic countries aren’t far away 
>> from this approach, either.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Clay via Mercedes  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the 
>>> heck out of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues. 
>>>  Not that we have employed that line of action in forever.  
>>> 
>>> Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward 
>>> terrain becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national 
>>> interest” in any of these places and should resolve to show restraint 
>>> in dealing with other nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, 
>>> navigate the world oceans with our big stick navy, and trim our 
>>> footprint on foreign soil to the most basic of services needed to meet 
>>> the needs of US citizens who visit these third world cesspools.  No 
>>> propping up dictators, overthrowing duly elected miscreants, play Spy 
>>> vs. Spy, supporting rapacious fruit plantations or other business 
>>> dealings.  Screw NAFTA and the rest of the open world trade policy 
>>> crap.  Make the things we need here, jack the tariffs on outside goods, 
>>> and trim the Department of State, CIA, NSA, and other multi-alphabet 
>>> agencies to the bone.
>>> 
>>> In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation 
>>> that did not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have 
>>> transitioned into less welcoming places for our citizens to live or 
>>> visit, let alone do business.
>>> 
>>> Just my $0.02.
>>> 
>>> clay
>>> 
 On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
  wrote:
 
 This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in 
 the middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
 -Curt
 
 On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via 
 Mercedes  wrote:  
 
 Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
 
 It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if 
 we wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle 
 east can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact 
 beyond that. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> clay monroe
>>> 
>>> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for 
>>> what I'm looking for didn't fall out.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
 
 
 ___
 

Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

I wonder how Charles felt about Dodi boinking Diana.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:48 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I was watching a documentary on the UK, specifically the royals, and was 
> surprised to learn about how Charles buddied up to the Arab states and 
> promoted Muslims to the country. He apparently got a lot of “cred” in the 
> Arab world, but the Queen Mum and Dad were apparently not happy.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:45 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes France and UK are the worst. Thanks to the E.U. policies which are 
>> dictated mostly by Germany, countries such as Italy and Greece and others 
>> have been inundated by these people. Hungary was smart and finally closed 
>> its borders.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You could say much the same for France or the UK, but the UK has been doing 
>>> this for a while based on colonialism..
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
 
 Except that many of these neutral countries don’t let hoardes of Muslim 
 “refugees” trample through their borders. Europe under Merkel has been 
 decimated and destroyed permanently by this scourge.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> True. The Swiss really do it right. Nordic countries aren’t far away from 
> this approach, either.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Clay via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the 
>> heck out of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues.  
>> Not that we have employed that line of action in forever.  
>> 
>> Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward 
>> terrain becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national 
>> interest” in any of these places and should resolve to show restraint in 
>> dealing with other nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, 
>> navigate the world oceans with our big stick navy, and trim our 
>> footprint on foreign soil to the most basic of services needed to meet 
>> the needs of US citizens who visit these third world cesspools.  No 
>> propping up dictators, overthrowing duly elected miscreants, play Spy 
>> vs. Spy, supporting rapacious fruit plantations or other business 
>> dealings.  Screw NAFTA and the rest of the open world trade policy crap. 
>>  Make the things we need here, jack the tariffs on outside goods, and 
>> trim the Department of State, CIA, NSA, and other multi-alphabet 
>> agencies to the bone.
>> 
>> In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation 
>> that did not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have transitioned 
>> into less welcoming places for our citizens to live or visit, let alone 
>> do business.
>> 
>> Just my $0.02.
>> 
>> clay
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in 
>>> the middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via 
>>> Mercedes  wrote:  
>>> 
>>> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
>>> 
>>> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we 
>>> wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle 
>>> east can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact 
>>> beyond that. 
>> 
>> 
>> clay monroe
>> 
>> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what 
>> I'm looking for didn't fall out.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To 

Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I was watching a documentary on the UK, specifically the royals, and was 
surprised to learn about how Charles buddied up to the Arab states and promoted 
Muslims to the country. He apparently got a lot of “cred” in the Arab world, 
but the Queen Mum and Dad were apparently not happy.

-D


> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:45 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> Yes France and UK are the worst. Thanks to the E.U. policies which are 
> dictated mostly by Germany, countries such as Italy and Greece and others 
> have been inundated by these people. Hungary was smart and finally closed its 
> borders.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> You could say much the same for France or the UK, but the UK has been doing 
>> this for a while based on colonialism..
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Except that many of these neutral countries don’t let hoardes of Muslim 
>>> “refugees” trample through their borders. Europe under Merkel has been 
>>> decimated and destroyed permanently by this scourge.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
  wrote:
 
 True. The Swiss really do it right. Nordic countries aren’t far away from 
 this approach, either.
 
 -D
 
 
> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Clay via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the heck 
> out of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues.  Not 
> that we have employed that line of action in forever.  
> 
> Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward 
> terrain becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national 
> interest” in any of these places and should resolve to show restraint in 
> dealing with other nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, 
> navigate the world oceans with our big stick navy, and trim our footprint 
> on foreign soil to the most basic of services needed to meet the needs of 
> US citizens who visit these third world cesspools.  No propping up 
> dictators, overthrowing duly elected miscreants, play Spy vs. Spy, 
> supporting rapacious fruit plantations or other business dealings.  Screw 
> NAFTA and the rest of the open world trade policy crap.  Make the things 
> we need here, jack the tariffs on outside goods, and trim the Department 
> of State, CIA, NSA, and other multi-alphabet agencies to the bone.
> 
> In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation 
> that did not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have transitioned 
> into less welcoming places for our citizens to live or visit, let alone 
> do business.
> 
> Just my $0.02.
> 
> clay
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in 
>> the middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
>> -Curt
>> 
>> On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via 
>> Mercedes  wrote:  
>> 
>> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
>> 
>> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we 
>> wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east 
>> can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond 
>> that. 
> 
> 
> clay monroe
> 
> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what 
> I'm looking for didn't fall out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 
 
 
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 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Yes France and UK are the worst. Thanks to the E.U. policies which are dictated 
mostly by Germany, countries such as Italy and Greece and others have been 
inundated by these people. Hungary was smart and finally closed its borders.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:25 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> You could say much the same for France or the UK, but the UK has been doing 
> this for a while based on colonialism..
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
>> 
>> Except that many of these neutral countries don’t let hoardes of Muslim 
>> “refugees” trample through their borders. Europe under Merkel has been 
>> decimated and destroyed permanently by this scourge.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> True. The Swiss really do it right. Nordic countries aren’t far away from 
>>> this approach, either.
>>> 
>>> -D
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Clay via Mercedes  
 wrote:
 
 The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the heck 
 out of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues.  Not 
 that we have employed that line of action in forever.  
 
 Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward 
 terrain becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national 
 interest” in any of these places and should resolve to show restraint in 
 dealing with other nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, 
 navigate the world oceans with our big stick navy, and trim our footprint 
 on foreign soil to the most basic of services needed to meet the needs of 
 US citizens who visit these third world cesspools.  No propping up 
 dictators, overthrowing duly elected miscreants, play Spy vs. Spy, 
 supporting rapacious fruit plantations or other business dealings.  Screw 
 NAFTA and the rest of the open world trade policy crap.  Make the things 
 we need here, jack the tariffs on outside goods, and trim the Department 
 of State, CIA, NSA, and other multi-alphabet agencies to the bone.
 
 In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation 
 that did not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have transitioned 
 into less welcoming places for our citizens to live or visit, let alone do 
 business.
 
 Just my $0.02.
 
 clay
 
> On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
> middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
> -Curt
> 
> On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
> 
> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we 
> wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east 
> can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that. 
 
 
 clay monroe
 
 I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what 
 I'm looking for didn't fall out.
 
 
 
 
 ___
 http://www.okiebenz.com
 
 To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
 
 To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
 http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

You could say much the same for France or the UK, but the UK has been doing 
this for a while based on colonialism..

-D


> On Jan 3, 2020, at 6:04 PM, Dimitri Seretakis  wrote:
> 
> Except that many of these neutral countries don’t let hoardes of Muslim 
> “refugees” trample through their borders. Europe under Merkel has been 
> decimated and destroyed permanently by this scourge.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> True. The Swiss really do it right. Nordic countries aren’t far away from 
>> this approach, either.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Clay via Mercedes  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the heck 
>>> out of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues.  Not 
>>> that we have employed that line of action in forever.  
>>> 
>>> Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward terrain 
>>> becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national interest” 
>>> in any of these places and should resolve to show restraint in dealing with 
>>> other nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, navigate the world 
>>> oceans with our big stick navy, and trim our footprint on foreign soil to 
>>> the most basic of services needed to meet the needs of US citizens who 
>>> visit these third world cesspools.  No propping up dictators, overthrowing 
>>> duly elected miscreants, play Spy vs. Spy, supporting rapacious fruit 
>>> plantations or other business dealings.  Screw NAFTA and the rest of the 
>>> open world trade policy crap.  Make the things we need here, jack the 
>>> tariffs on outside goods, and trim the Department of State, CIA, NSA, and 
>>> other multi-alphabet agencies to the bone.
>>> 
>>> In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation that 
>>> did not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have transitioned into 
>>> less welcoming places for our citizens to live or visit, let alone do 
>>> business.
>>> 
>>> Just my $0.02.
>>> 
>>> clay
>>> 
 On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
  wrote:
 
 This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
 middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
 -Curt
 
 On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
  wrote:  
 
 Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
 
 It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we 
 wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east 
 can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that. 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> clay monroe
>>> 
>>> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what 
>>> I'm looking for didn't fall out.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dimitri Seretakis via Mercedes]

Except that many of these neutral countries don’t let hoardes of Muslim 
“refugees” trample through their borders. Europe under Merkel has been 
decimated and destroyed permanently by this scourge.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> True. The Swiss really do it right. Nordic countries aren’t far away from 
> this approach, either.
> 
> -D
> 
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Clay via Mercedes  wrote:
>> 
>> The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the heck 
>> out of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues.  Not that 
>> we have employed that line of action in forever.  
>> 
>> Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward terrain 
>> becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national interest” in 
>> any of these places and should resolve to show restraint in dealing with 
>> other nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, navigate the world 
>> oceans with our big stick navy, and trim our footprint on foreign soil to 
>> the most basic of services needed to meet the needs of US citizens who visit 
>> these third world cesspools.  No propping up dictators, overthrowing duly 
>> elected miscreants, play Spy vs. Spy, supporting rapacious fruit plantations 
>> or other business dealings.  Screw NAFTA and the rest of the open world 
>> trade policy crap.  Make the things we need here, jack the tariffs on 
>> outside goods, and trim the Department of State, CIA, NSA, and other 
>> multi-alphabet agencies to the bone.
>> 
>> In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation that 
>> did not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have transitioned into 
>> less welcoming places for our citizens to live or visit, let alone do 
>> business.
>> 
>> Just my $0.02.
>> 
>> clay
>> 
>>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
>>> middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
>>> -Curt
>>> 
>>> On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:  
>>> 
>>> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
>>> 
>>> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we 
>>> wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east 
>>> can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that. 
>> 
>> 
>> clay monroe
>> 
>> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
>> looking for didn't fall out.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

True. The Swiss really do it right. Nordic countries aren’t far away from this 
approach, either.

-D


> On Jan 3, 2020, at 3:35 PM, Clay via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the heck out 
> of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues.  Not that we 
> have employed that line of action in forever.  
> 
> Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward terrain 
> becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national interest” in 
> any of these places and should resolve to show restraint in dealing with 
> other nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, navigate the world 
> oceans with our big stick navy, and trim our footprint on foreign soil to the 
> most basic of services needed to meet the needs of US citizens who visit 
> these third world cesspools.  No propping up dictators, overthrowing duly 
> elected miscreants, play Spy vs. Spy, supporting rapacious fruit plantations 
> or other business dealings.  Screw NAFTA and the rest of the open world trade 
> policy crap.  Make the things we need here, jack the tariffs on outside 
> goods, and trim the Department of State, CIA, NSA, and other multi-alphabet 
> agencies to the bone.
> 
> In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation that 
> did not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have transitioned into less 
> welcoming places for our citizens to live or visit, let alone do business.
> 
> Just my $0.02.
> 
> clay
> 
>> On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
>> middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
>> -Curt
>> 
>>  On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:  
>> 
>> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
>> 
>> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we wean 
>> ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east can 
>> battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that. 
> 
> 
> clay monroe
> 
> I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
> looking for didn't fall out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Clay via Mercedes]

The best foreign policy ever employed by the US has been to stay the heck out 
of other peoples business and tidy up our own internal issues.  Not that we 
have employed that line of action in forever.  

Whenever we decide to meddle, the banana republic or other backward terrain 
becomes a pustulant sore in our backside.  We have no “national interest” in 
any of these places and should resolve to show restraint in dealing with other 
nations.  Just pull it all back to home shores, navigate the world oceans with 
our big stick navy, and trim our footprint on foreign soil to the most basic of 
services needed to meet the needs of US citizens who visit these third world 
cesspools.  No propping up dictators, overthrowing duly elected miscreants, 
play Spy vs. Spy, supporting rapacious fruit plantations or other business 
dealings.  Screw NAFTA and the rest of the open world trade policy crap.  Make 
the things we need here, jack the tariffs on outside goods, and trim the 
Department of State, CIA, NSA, and other multi-alphabet agencies to the bone.

In my many decades of living outside the good old USA, the only nation that did 
not go sideways were the Swiss.  All the rest have transitioned into less 
welcoming places for our citizens to live or visit, let alone do business.

Just my $0.02.

clay

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 7:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
> middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
> -Curt
> 
>   On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
> 
> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we wean 
> ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east can 
> battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that. 


clay monroe

I turned my computer upside down and shook it, but the bookmark for what I'm 
looking for didn't fall out.




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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 Yup and for some reason people in this country think "Oh, we'll just bring 
them a cup of democracy and everything will suddenly get better."
Yeah sure, we suddenly have figured out some magic that EVERYBODY else for two 
centuries has missed. 

-Curt

On Friday, January 3, 2020, 11:41:56 AM EST, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 True. And religion aside, some of the conflicts in this area go back 
centuries, as we’re in no position nor is there any reason for us to get in the 
middle of them.

I think that is one HUGE knowledge gap that exists in our population. People 
here don’t grasp some of the cultural and regional conflicts that exist 
elsewhere in the world that have been going on for hundreds, if not thousands 
of years. I can recall stuff my paternal grandfather would say about Turks and 
others in the area where he grew up (he was Macedonian) that stemmed from 
conflicts that have been going on for centuries.

-D



> On Jan 3, 2020, at 11:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
> middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
> -Curt
> 
>    On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
> wrote:  
> 
> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
> 
> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we wean 
> ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east can 
> battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that.  
> ___
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> 
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

True. And religion aside, some of the conflicts in this area go back centuries, 
as we’re in no position nor is there any reason for us to get in the middle of 
them.

I think that is one HUGE knowledge gap that exists in our population. People 
here don’t grasp some of the cultural and regional conflicts that exist 
elsewhere in the world that have been going on for hundreds, if not thousands 
of years. I can recall stuff my paternal grandfather would say about Turks and 
others in the area where he grew up (he was Macedonian) that stemmed from 
conflicts that have been going on for centuries.

-D



> On Jan 3, 2020, at 11:25 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
> middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
> -Curt
> 
>On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>  wrote:  
> 
> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  
> 
> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we wean 
> ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east can 
> battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that.  
> ___
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

 This is my thought. Everything anybody from the west has ever done in the 
middle east has turned into poo. Why keep trying?
-Curt

On Friday, January 3, 2020, 10:53:57 AM EST, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
 wrote:  
 
 Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  

It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we wean 
ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east can battle 
each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that.  
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[G Mann via Mercedes]

All valid arguments. However, there is one factor not considered.
That factor is the imposition of Islam in the region, centuries ago.
Islam is a violent cult devoted to world conquest by any force available.
It is not now, nor has it ever been, a religion.
That factor has nothing to do with oil. Oil is only a resource to fund the
purchase of weapons to further the conquest of the world for Islam.

Ask any Muslim you meet this one question: "What will become of Islam?"
The answer will always be: "Islam will rule the world."

Take it from someone who lived in Mideast and worked for your government to
unravel the Gordian Knot for two decades.

On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 8:53 AM Peter Frederick via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.
>
> It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we
> wean ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east
> can battle each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that.
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

Could be why the Turks neatly dumped Iraq on the British after WWI.  

It's stupid to play over there -- very little other than oil, and if we wean 
ourselves off wasting petroleum, the inhabitants of the middle east can battle 
each other over sand dunes forever with no impact beyond that.  
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Good observations. 

I say we take off and nuke the whole site from orbit. It’s the only way to be 
sure. 

--FT
Sent from iPhone

> On Jan 3, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Peter Frederick via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> We are still paying for allowing Churchill to talk us into overthrowing 
> Mossadeh (sp), the duly elected Prime Minister of a democratic Iran in 1953.  
> Not the only time he stabbed us in the back, either, in his drive to 
> re-create the British Empire.  All he needed was for the US to pay all the UK 
> debt from WWI on, and free oil from Iran.  If the UK had to PAY for the oil 
> for the fleet, it would sit in harbor with empty tanks
> 
> The root of the issue here is imperialism, not a few bad actors.  As I've 
> figured out over the last five decades, blowing people up and burning down 
> their houses usually results in radicalization, and that in turn leads to 
> "asymmetric warfare" and eventual defeat.  
> 
> Far better to integrate economies and raise the standard of living.  Humans 
> in general very rarely go to war against their own income and food supply, 
> but are more than ready to defend them against someone, real or imagined, 
> bent on taking them away.
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Re: [MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

We are still paying for allowing Churchill to talk us into overthrowing 
Mossadeh (sp), the duly elected Prime Minister of a democratic Iran in 1953.  
Not the only time he stabbed us in the back, either, in his drive to re-create 
the British Empire.  All he needed was for the US to pay all the UK debt from 
WWI on, and free oil from Iran.  If the UK had to PAY for the oil for the 
fleet, it would sit in harbor with empty tanks

The root of the issue here is imperialism, not a few bad actors.  As I've 
figured out over the last five decades, blowing people up and burning down 
their houses usually results in radicalization, and that in turn leads to 
"asymmetric warfare" and eventual defeat.  

Far better to integrate economies and raise the standard of living.  Humans in 
general very rarely go to war against their own income and food supply, but are 
more than ready to defend them against someone, real or imagined, bent on 
taking them away.
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[MBZ] OT: Temperature in MidEast just went up

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Wow!

https://apnews.com/5597ff0f046a67805cc233d5933a53ed

"BAGHDAD (AP) — The United States killed Iran’s top general and the
architect of Tehran’s proxy wars in the Middle East in an airstrike at
Baghdad’s international airport early on Friday, an attack that threatens
to dramatically ratchet up tensions in the region.

The targeted killing of Gen. Qassem Soleimani, the head of Iran’s elite
Quds Force, ..." and a bunch of hand-wringing follows.
-
Max
Charleston SC
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