Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ•˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ.˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Hello Mr Jain, No disrespect to you, but I'm still wondering why you think the 2 meteorites you wanted to return was garbage? I understand if you're not happy with them, then you are entitled to send them back for a refund, but maybe in your inexperience those 2 pieces may be highly desirable otherwise? No, I'm sorry for my rudeness, what I'm trying to say is why you did not like the 2 meteorites you wanted to return? What was it that makes you think they were not what was represented? We haven't heard from Martin but It looks to me he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Carl2 Mark wrote: To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks... Shawn wrote: ...Now for meteorites not being polished doesn’t make them less in value or fake but in some respect make the value more depending if they have fusion crust or if they... __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Andi, I was given unconditional guarantee to be able to return item within 3 weeks. I contacted them within hours of receiving the package. Each item was priced individually and I was offered approx. 12%-13% discount on the package of meteorites. IMCA looked at all these details when they offered 3 options to Martin Altman and Stefan to resolve the issues. Essentially, they adjusted the price of each item on pro-rated prices based on the discount percentage. Is there someone on the list who is willing to help the newcomer resolve this dispute with Stefan and Martin. IMCA board has looked at the complaint and facts and made the recommendation. I am comfortable with any of the 3 recommendation made by IMCA board. Any thoughts? naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Gren Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:26 AM To: Mark's Meteorites Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ.˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Carl, No disrespect to you but its beside the point on why I didnt like these meteorites. I can't tell you what you should or shouldnt like. I was offered unconditional refund and I feel that some meteorites didn't meet my expectation. Think about it - Why would Stefan and Martin not take these back (as per their obligation and terms of sale) if these meteorites were really that great. Are they afraid that there may not be another sucker for these not so wonderful meteorites. There is no justification for committing fraud which is to offer the terms of sale with no intention of honoring them. naveen From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Carl 's Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:36 AM To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hello Mr Jain, No disrespect to you, but I'm still wondering why you think the 2 meteorites you wanted to return was garbage? I understand if you're not happy with them, then you are entitled to send them back for a refund, but maybe in your inexperience those 2 pieces may be highly desirable otherwise? No, I'm sorry for my rudeness, what I'm trying to say is why you did not like the 2 meteorites you wanted to return? What was it that makes you think they were not what was represented? We haven't heard from Martin but It looks to me he was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Carl2 Mark wrote: To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks... Shawn wrote: ...Now for meteorites not being polished doesnt make them less in value or fake but in some respect make the value more depending if they have fusion crust or if they... __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Sorry again if I had hit a nerve. I understand you are entitled for a refund if you are not happy. I was just wondering why those meteorites did not meet your expectations? Size, color, polished,...? Carl2 Carl, No disrespect to you but it’s beside the point on why I didn’t like these meteorites. I can't tell you what you should or shouldn’t like. I was offered unconditional refund and I feel that some meteorites didn't meet my expectation. Think about it - Why would Stefan and Martin not take these back (as per their obligation and terms of sale) if these meteorites were really that great. Are they afraid that there may not be another sucker for these not so wonderful meteorites. There is no justification for committing fraud which is to offer the terms of sale with no intention of honoring them. naveen __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Naveen, I'll make three more observations then quit on this one. 1) You've been through the channels with IMCA - according to your email compilation, you complained to IMCA (13th July) three days after a note where Martin agreed that a refund was in order (10th July). Regardless of whether people think this counts as trying very hard to resolve the issue, the IMCA acted, and both Martin and Stephan are now no longer members. IMCA involvement is at an end. 2) I draw attention to the amendment to the subject heading I made earlier in the thread. I don't like reading emails which use terms like 'fraud', 'scam', 'systematically engaged in mail and wire fraud', 'one of their many victims', 'illegal and unethical behaviour', etc. As far as I'm concerned, they are allegations and nothing more. 3) The IMCA has no connection with this mailing list. You're not going to get this issue resolved by further emails to the MetList - we're not the police, we're collectors, scientists, students and traders. Ultimately this is going to be resolved, or not, between yourself and the sellers. Mark __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
I didn't know there was a quality to a meteorite. A meteorite is a meteorite is a meteorite. They are what they are. We don't have cheap ones made in China, high quality ones made in Germany.Come on. Certainly there are prettier ones, neater ones, and odd ones but nowhere have I ever seen there could be a quality issue. Seems Walmart has ruined another industry, take back anything for no reason. -- Stuart McDaniel Lawndale, NC IMCA#9052 http://www.facebook.com/Stuart.McDaniel.No.1 Naveen Jain nav...@intelius.com wrote: = Andi, I was given unconditional guarantee to be able to return item within 3 weeks. I contacted them within hours of receiving the package. Each item was priced individually and I was offered approx. 12%-13% discount on the package of meteorites. IMCA looked at all these details when they offered 3 options to Martin Altman and Stefan to resolve the issues. Essentially, they adjusted the price of each item on pro-rated prices based on the discount percentage. Is there someone on the list who is willing to help the newcomer resolve this dispute with Stefan and Martin. IMCA board has looked at the complaint and facts and made the recommendation. I am comfortable with any of the 3 recommendation made by IMCA board. Any thoughts? naveen Naveen Jain Founder - Moon Express, Intelius, InfoSpace Board of Trustee - X Prize Foundation, Singularity University http://www.linkedin.com/in/naveenjainintelius From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Andreas Gren Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2011 10:26 AM To: Mark's Meteorites Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think that this discussion should make people think carefully about their deals - both from whom they buy, and to whom they sell. Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. Mark On 2 Aug 2011, at 15:19, Matthias Bärmann wrote: Mr. Jain wrote: I am very new to the meteorite collection ... 3 days learning about meteorites and their classification (...) He also wrote: I also did a bit of research on them and was not thrilled with their quality. I wanted to return Lunar Kreep because it just doesnâ.˙t look right to me (...) makes me think that what they sold me are either fakes or very low quality stuff (...) Sounds somehow strange, no? __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour
Hi Andi Nadeen But Naveen, someone has to speak for the meteorites. They are truly what appear to be world class specimens. To say anything less of them doesn't sit right with me as a reason for the return. Why a return deal cannot be worked out I haven't a clue - it smells too much like the dealer wars with which we are all familiar, and the dark side of this incredibly fulfilling avocation. The IMCA quotations seemed to indicate that the parties were unwilling to negotiate anything. Zilcho. If you had the no-question returns' clause I completely agree with you. I did notice that some of the material in question might have been secured by the sellers, if I recall, at the time, in a shrewd race with other prominent and respected dealers that were incensed to have lost first dibbs on that fantastic material. So it is starting to sound to me like payback time in a very different vein. What will really be a tragedy here is if both sides simply were not on the same wavelength regarding the terms of the deal. It has happened before. I would not mess with Naveen. I would work something out with him, even if it put me at a hardship and don't we all wish we could wind the clock back and be sure no deal were made. Andi you are absolutely right about cherry picking returns of package deals. But wait, ... we also need to note that Naveen ramped up the demand for a full refund for everything ... and that raises the stakes and eliminates this objection. I still can't believe these guys would sell themselves out, to me it is unthinkable. Other dealers may be quick to take advantage of such a situation, in fact I would too if becoming an indentured servant to transfer those lunar gems into my possession were possible ;-). The only clue I picked up is from Naveen's information about the refund request denial - something along the lines that he wasn't a simple collector but rather a business. The email that was submitted referring to refund policy seems damning if true, but, we lack the context. If I follow that line of reasoning, and speculate at face value, it would suggest to me that the guys viewed the deal as dealer-to-dealer or dealer-to-professional for whatever reason, where the refund rules are usually quite different. Only the unbiased terms between the parties can speak for themselves, and personally I think the Europeans are outflanked by their American colleagues in some aspects when it comes to such boxing matches and I wish the sellers the best as well as meeting their obligations, whatever those were specific to this transaction. I am still wondering if there is a cash flow crunch caused by sending money to Morocco to release the stones and causing insolvency. Stranger things have happened and who am I to say: the point is that there is a dispute. We've only heard one side of the dispute, including the interpretation of the vote. This entire situation is terrible for the meteorite community - that is what I feel. The IMCA vote doesn't seem to question authenticity, not quality, and details are not complete as a board member posted. It does say that the members were pressured to negotiate and then resigned instead. It doesn't say that they were kicked-out, though it certainly looks like some pressure was put upon them to do more than they were willing or able. Kindest wishes Doug -Original Message- From: Andreas Gren i...@meteoritenhaus.de To: 'Mark's Meteorites' m...@meteorites.cc Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Tue, Aug 2, 2011 1:25 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour Hi Mark, you wrote, ... Nonetheless - as Farmer says, either they did or they didn't refuse to refund. IF they didn't (minus a reasonable handling deduction) then they're in the wrong. It's not necessarily that easy , if you arrange a deal with two centrepieces and some by-catch and the seller has reduced the prices of the by-catch dramatically to offer an interesting total; to give back the two centrepieces and ask for money back could be a misuse of any give back agreements Please note, I used the terms if and could, I'm just speculating. Best greetings Andi - -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Mark's Meteorites Gesendet: Dienstag, 2. August 2011 18:05 An: Matthias Bärmann Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; nav...@intelius.com; 'MexicoDoug' Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Alleged illegal behaviour To me it sounds like someone has, at best, been naive and not done their homework. Caveat emptor applies when you're buying a pint of milk; it certainly applies if you're ponying up a quarter million bucks. A quarter million dollars on something, mail order, for something only viewed in photographs? For real? I think
