Re: OpenBSD culture?
Eh? Was it irony? I suppose that not and you need to learn A LOT about who is Marco ;-) > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:39 PM, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO > wrote: > >> Marco, instead of complaining about GNU, GPL, FSF, Linux, etc. Why >> don't you write some code instead? I know it's a strange concept.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On 04/15/10 01:39, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO wrote: Fascinating. I predicted Peereboom would post the same old rant. My "fix" has nothing to do with childish attitude or being more nerdy than you. It has everything do with GNU's twisted definition of freedom. Yet, that's YOUR view on the subject. My views are quite different. His view is right and your's is incorrect. You can not dictate the truth. If you think the GPL == freedom, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the ass. You probably hate the GPL. I like it. Because you hate freedom and are self proclaimed hippie. I do not dictate my views to others. Your typical insults and testosterone bursts aren't effective where logical thinking is present. Then apply some logical thinking yourself, and quit drinking Stallman's kool-aid. How many restrictions are in the BSD and ISC licenses? For all intents and purposes, one: keep the copyright message intact. Otherwise, *free* to do with as you please. That's a fact. Now go look at the GPL, any version, and list the restrictions. You can't do this, you can't do that, unless you do this, unless you do that. There's a clue in having many versions over the years: refinements of the restrictions. That's a fact. Here's a short overview: http://www.openbsd.org/policy.html If you don't believe the GPL has more restrictions, ask a lawyer and see for yourself. The lawyer will give you some facts. Maybe the GPL is best for *your* needs, but don't blather on about it being 'free'. You sound like an idiot. So let's stop arguing because this is already off-topic. You won't be able to change my views, and I won't even try to change yours. Why not? You are wrong, and worse not admitting it. Yelling that I'm wrong and testosterone bursts won't make me wrong. Maybe logical arguments would change my mind, but that requires intelligence, not superficial whining. You are whining. And not sounding particularly intelligent in the process. The GPL is a promise of "good" communism. Wake me up when it starts working. Yet you use GCC. Marco, instead of complaining about GNU, GPL, FSF, Linux, etc. Why don't you write some code instead? I know it's a strange concept. WTF are you talking about? I don't recall seeing your name on any OpenBSD commits. I know about marco@, but not *you*. Where are your commits? STFU already. -- - RSM www.erratic.ca
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 1:39 PM, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO wrote: > Marco, instead of complaining about GNU, GPL, FSF, Linux, etc. Why > don't you write some code instead? I know it's a strange concept. Hehehe. A funny hippie. //art
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Fascinating. I predicted Peereboom would post the same old rant. > > > My "fix" has nothing to do with childish attitude or being more nerdy than > > > you. It has everything do with GNU's twisted definition of freedom. > > > > > > > Yet, that's YOUR view on the subject. My views are quite different. > > His view is right and your's is incorrect. > You can not dictate the truth. > > You probably hate the GPL. I like it. > > Because you hate freedom and are self proclaimed hippie. > I do not dictate my views to others. Your typical insults and testosterone bursts aren't effective where logical thinking is present. > > So let's stop arguing because this is already off-topic. You won't > > be able to change my views, and I won't even try to change yours. > > Why not? You are wrong, and worse not admitting it. > Yelling that I'm wrong and testosterone bursts won't make me wrong. Maybe logical arguments would change my mind, but that requires intelligence, not superficial whining. > The GPL is a promise of "good" communism. Wake me up when it starts > working. > Yet you use GCC. Marco, instead of complaining about GNU, GPL, FSF, Linux, etc. Why don't you write some code instead? I know it's a strange concept.
Re: licensing
On Apr 14, 2010, at 8:57 PM, Ted Roby wrote: > I got more help from the first poster who suggested using > Circle Mud instead. The problem is, I was quite attached to > to this modified Rom code, and perhaps committed the > error of getting my hopes up. You just weren't to to clear in your first post. /dev/null here couldn't figure out if you were just bitching about the idiocy of people's random licenses (and believe me, I've been seeing stupid licenses on code since 1984 on my school's Vax 785 run BSD4.1 -- it's gotten only marginally better), or whining that you couldn't use this super-cool pile of code because you couldn't contact the author. You did not hint that you even *tried* to contact him, them or whatever. And then you reply to the first response, bitching about what someone helpfully tries to suggest might aid you in finding the author. OK, I'm a shit for poking the bear. But still, you could have just said "yeah, I tried that, and haven't heard back", but no, you gotta put him in his place. . . Sheesh. > NULL + NULL + NULL still equals nothing. Properly chastised, I'm going back to lurking. Sean PS Theo does a *WAY* better job of bitch-slapping me, by the way. But keep trying! PPS Normally I avoid poking fun at people's typos and misspellings. But since turnabout is fair play. . .
ifstated behavior
Hi misc, I was playing around with ifstated, trying to understand exactly how it behaves, and came up with a few assumptions for which I could not find any contradiction or confirmation in the docs. So I'd appreciate if someone familiar with ifstated internals could shed some light. --- 1. If for some reason several set-state directives of a given state's body are processed, the last one applies. It is especially relevant when you have event A and event B set to true, and rules like: if A && B set-state X if A set-state Y if B set-state Z Some people would probably expect ifstated to enter state X, but it that case it would go to Z. I actually found one example of this problem in mailing list archives (2009 Nov 03), and the poster was apparently instructed to avoid && in his tests but I don't think that was a correct answer. --- 2. There is no rules of precedence between && and ||, operation are processed from left to right, and not according to the usual order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_connective#Order_of_precedence) So when you write : A || B && C You should expect : ( A || B ) && C Instead of the usually expected : A || ( B && C ) --- 3. This point is actually properly documented in ifstated.conf man page, but apparently ignored in the sample ifstated.conf file. Man page states that "Macros can be defined that will later be expanded in context." But if you look at /usr/src/etc/ifstated.conf, you can see at the bottom the macro $carp_sync being negated without use of parentheses, which is per my understanding equivalent to negate only the first test of the macro (which gives funky results). If my assumptions are correct, I think it would be nice to have 1 and 2 quickly mentioned in ifstated.conf's man page, and /usr/src/etc/ifstated.conf corrected. --- etc/ifstated.conf.orig Thu Apr 15 13:47:45 2010 +++ etc/ifstated.conf Thu Apr 15 13:50:53 2010 @@ -12,8 +12,8 @@ carp_up = "carp0.link.up && carp1.link.up" carp_down = "!carp0.link.up && !carp1.link.up" -carp_sync = "carp0.link.up && carp1.link.up || \ -!carp0.link.up && !carp1.link.up" +carp_sync = "(carp0.link.up && carp1.link.up || \ +!carp0.link.up && !carp1.link.up)" # The "net" addresses are other addresses which can be used to determine # whether we have connectivity. Make sure the hosts are always up, or Please let me know if you think any of the above is wrong. Regards, William
Por tu cumple
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Re: OpenBSD culture?
Thanks Siju! Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:27 AM, Siju George wrote: > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Nick Holland > wrote: >> (I remember my first e-mail from Theo. B Three words: "you are insane". >> B Well over a decade later, I'm STILL not sure if it was a complement >> or an insult -- the phrase gets used both ways -- but the accuracy was >> never in question (it was in response to something about explosives >> and pointy objects and computer components)) >> > > The first email I got from Theo > > " This is an FAQ. You did not do your home work" > > Well it was an FAQ. > > Dear Zachary, > > After reading the mail from Theo I don't think that it was very rude > actually. He was directing you to the web where you could get more > detailed answers than he can give. I am sure he has not multi booted > Linux, Windows on Grub2 and I don't think he can give an authoritative > answer as to what the current situation is. Where as some user who has > tried it can tell you so he asked you to use the Web. Actually it can > be done. > > The second thing is when you have such a general question like this > why write to the Project Leader at all? > You should have at least found out the openbsd mailinglist and asked it > there! > > For all questions like this it is not fair to burden developers. As > Theo said it looks so funny. > It should be asked to other users. Developers can be queried for tough > questions. > Ask the list and you find that developers do answer even some silly > questions these days! > > Why consider yourself so important that the project leader himself > should reply to you when you ask simple questions like that? > Just think about it. > > Since you are a newbie may I direct you to the openbsd-newbies > mailing-list maintained by Peter Hessler? > See you there! > > Bye > > --Siju
Re: OpenBSD culture?
>Actually two of the top linux kernel developers answered my email >directly to them when I had some questions. There was no ridicule or >belittling. If so, you got ripped off. You should hear us over beer. Oh, and "OpenBSD culture" is when Theo forgets something on the kitchen counter and doesn't put it back in the fridge before leaving town for a hike.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Nick Holland wrote: > (I remember my first e-mail from Theo. Three words: "you are insane". > Well over a decade later, I'm STILL not sure if it was a complement > or an insult -- the phrase gets used both ways -- but the accuracy was > never in question (it was in response to something about explosives > and pointy objects and computer components)) > The first email I got from Theo " This is an FAQ. You did not do your home work" Well it was an FAQ. Dear Zachary, After reading the mail from Theo I don't think that it was very rude actually. He was directing you to the web where you could get more detailed answers than he can give. I am sure he has not multi booted Linux, Windows on Grub2 and I don't think he can give an authoritative answer as to what the current situation is. Where as some user who has tried it can tell you so he asked you to use the Web. Actually it can be done. The second thing is when you have such a general question like this why write to the Project Leader at all? You should have at least found out the openbsd mailinglist and asked it there! For all questions like this it is not fair to burden developers. As Theo said it looks so funny. It should be asked to other users. Developers can be queried for tough questions. Ask the list and you find that developers do answer even some silly questions these days! Why consider yourself so important that the project leader himself should reply to you when you ask simple questions like that? Just think about it. Since you are a newbie may I direct you to the openbsd-newbies mailing-list maintained by Peter Hessler? See you there! Bye --Siju
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:06 PM, Bryan wrote: > > I thought "nothing" was "zero", and NUL was the absence of nothing... > Wouldn't NULL be the absence of everything, including numerical 0? Dropping the semantics I'd have to say this thread is NULL, and yet it is full of... well, whatever that smell is...
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Paul M wrote: > > Please clarify what you want from this list. > > Peace, Love and Understanding. Yeah right.. I got more help from the first poster who suggested using Circle Mud instead. The problem is, I was quite attached to to this modified Rom code, and perhaps committed the error of getting my hopes up. I didn't post here looking for the author, or asinine tips on how to google him. Duh... The rest of the bitching you heard was in reply to the two NULLs who couldn't properly read my first message. Are you a third? NULL + NULL + NULL still equals nothing.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, Kenneth R Westerback wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 05:54:35PM -0600, Diana Eichert wrote: yep, like I know a lot more about alfalfa, fertilzer and weed control since I planted several acres. I did a LOT of reading on Ag sites before I started asking questions at the feed store. And how impressed were the staff at the feed store with your extensive knowledge of silver? :-). Ken Nah, it was more a knowledge of N,P2O2,K2O,S diana
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Nature does not recognize entitlement. On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 08:57:54PM -0400, Zachary Uram wrote: > As does yours. Try being positive instead of negative. > > Zach > > <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> > > > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Tony Abernethy > wrote: > > Zachary Uram wrote: > >> > >> Your attitude proves my point. I was not trolling. Grow up! > >> > > Another of the type of statement guaranteed to be false.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:12:26PM -0300, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO wrote: > > My "fix" has nothing to do with childish attitude or being more nerdy than > > you. It has everything do with GNU's twisted definition of freedom. > > > > Yet, that's YOUR view on the subject. My views are quite different. His view is right and your's is incorrect. > You probably hate the GPL. I like it. Because you hate freedom and are self proclaimed hippie. > So let's stop arguing because this is already off-topic. You won't > be able to change my views, and I won't even try to change yours. Why not? You are wrong, and worse not admitting it. The GPL is a promise of "good" communism. Wake me up when it starts working.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 08:43:24PM -0400, Zachary Uram wrote: > You get lost. You seem to think the project exists as an end unto > itself. It does. If other people like it, cool. Doesn't matter to me though. I'm here to enjoy myself. If you aren't, go away or at least keep quiet. There, OpenBSD culture at it's best. Ken > Develop the most wonderful kernel and userspace in the world > but if no one uses it what is the point? Since your attitude to new > users is "get lost" that reflects very poorly on yourself and > indirectly OpenBSD. > > Zach > > <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> > > > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:23 AM, Stas Miasnikou wrote: > > Zachary Uram P?P8QP5Q: > >> > >> As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been > >> reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was > >> very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in > >> Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain > >> level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I > >> have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less > >> interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely > >> on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that > >> smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair > >> assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? > > > > If you can not help yourself how can you help the project? B Get lost. > > > > B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B Stas
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Linux isn't fucking free. It is the opposite of free. On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 07:33:20PM -0300, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO wrote: > Flame war ahead! > > > As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been > > reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was > > very rude. > > OMG you sent mail to Theo de Radt asking for help? > > > There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in Linux, but if > > a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain level of > > friendliness in Linux community towards them. > > Linux is a kernel. That attitude will vary between lists for > specific packages. It varies with different people too. > > If you ask things about Linux on, say, the Bash list, you will > probably get an similar response. > > The difference is that OpenBSD is for advanced users. Some (not > all) GNU/Linux distros are intended for people that asks things > such as "How do I grab a package?". Nothing wrong about either, > just different audiences. > > > Just what I have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more > > abrupt and less interested in helping newbies, they prefer one > > find the answer solely on their own if possible. > > Yes. > > > I must say I detect a certain attitude that smacks of superiority > > and even condescension at times. Is this a fair assessment of the > > OpenBSD culture? > > > > You will find this almost everywhere. One particular issue of some > OpenBSD users is that they feel cool because they use OpenBSD over > GNU/Linux. Like: "Hey you use Linux? I use OpenBSD, I'm more nerdy > than you are, your loser". Something like that. > > I'm much more inclined to the GNU/Linux philosophy of Freedom, but > I do like OpenBSD technically, and I use it because I want to learn > how to write good operating system code. And also, OpenBSD is the > only "non GNU/Linux", free, operating system that has the features > I want and is not full of non-free drivers and stuff like that. > > You shouldn't decide what OS you will use based on your opinion on > the developers. I don't like Linus Torvalds, not one bit. But I do > use his kernel. I'm don't particularly love Theo, but I do use his > OS.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:01:22PM -0300, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO wrote: > > > The difference is that OpenBSD is for advanced users. > > > > depends how you define advanced. > > > > Yes. Imagine someone who use computers, like 2 hours a week and > use Windows. If you give him a computer with one of those GNU/Linux > distros aimed at ease of use he will probably get along easily - > until he receives a file in a proprietary format or need to use > some wireless card. > > If you give OpenBSD to this person, he probably won't use it at all. Bullshit. Linux is equally worthless for n00bs as OpenBSD. The difference is that one requires reading, caring and learning and the other you have to rely on a shitty community that pretends to be altruistic. OpenBSD isn't for everybody... And neither is any of those worthless "distro's". > > > when people say "OpenBSD is for developers", that does't mean you > > have to be as knowledgable as a kernel hacker to use OpenBSD > > effectively. it means you'll get the most out of OpenBSD when you > > approach it like a developer. developers *enjoy* figuring things > > out on their own. of course, people who enjoy learning about a > > subject do eventually become "advanced" at that subject, but that > > comes with time. > > > > Yes, I'm not a kernel hacker, not even a developer. But I'm familiar > with *nix commands, reading man pages, etc. Unlike most computer > users.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Zachary Uram wrote: > As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been > reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was > very rude. "Hi there, I haven't even tried your OS yet, but I have some questions. Please drop everything and answer me!". Coordinating work with developers? Unimportant. Arranging a hack-a-thon? who cares. Talking to a manufacturer about licensing code and getting docs? trivial. Writing code? done that! Figuring out how to keep the electric bill paid? outta my way. "Drop everything and help me!"? That's important. Yup. Failure to do that on demand? Rude. (I remember my first e-mail from Theo. Three words: "you are insane". Well over a decade later, I'm STILL not sure if it was a complement or an insult -- the phrase gets used both ways -- but the accuracy was never in question (it was in response to something about explosives and pointy objects and computer components)) > There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in > Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain > level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. That is, in large part, the difference between a religious organization who believes YOU SHOULD BE A MEMBER and will do anything they can to save your soul and convert you -- and a group of people who have work to do, and are willing to TAKE TIME OUT OF THEIR BUSY SCHEDULE to share some of their knowledge in their tools of choice in accomplishing that work with people who are willing to pull their own weight. Your soul is your business. How I spend my time is mine. > Just what I > have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less > interested in helping newbies, you are confusing new users eager to pull their own weight and learn with those who want others to do their work. Those aren't "newbies", those are "lazies". > they prefer one find the answer solely on their own if possible. I think this sums it up very nicely. I think 'e's got it! If it isn't possible, that indicates a deficiency in documentation which should be fixed. If it is possible, why the hell did someone spend a lot of time writing Fine Manuals when you won't Read Them? > I must say I detect a certain attitude that > smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair > assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? If expecting you to pull your own weight is superiority and condescension, I'll take that as high praise. You really want to use an operating system developed by mediocre coders and used by mediocre people? Really? Why? Are you typically asking advice of those who you consider your intellectual and experience equals? What's the point? When you ask people advice, be prepared for them to tell you you are wrong in your approach. If they are always agreeing with you, you haven't learned a thing, and you are probably asking the wrong people. Nick. (speaking of electric bills...have you bought your 4.7 CD set yet?)
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 05:54:35PM -0600, Diana Eichert wrote: > On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, Jacob Meuser wrote: > SNIP > >approach it like a developer. developers *enjoy* figuring things > >out on their own. of course, people who enjoy learning about a > >subject do eventually become "advanced" at that subject, but that > >comes with time. > > yep, like I know a lot more about alfalfa, fertilzer and weed control > since I planted several acres. > > I did a LOT of reading on Ag sites before I started asking questions > at the feed store. And how impressed were the staff at the feed store with your extensive knowledge of silver? :-). Ken > > diana > > PS > I did contact Theo right after he started up OpenBSD with some > stupid installation question. He pretty much told me if I didn't > understand how to fix the problem maybe I shouldn't be using > OpenBSD. Shoot, that just made me mad as hell, I thought to > myself I can figure this out and did.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Zachary Uram wrote: > You get lost. You seem to think the project exists as an end unto > itself. And why can't it? Seriously, please explain this. > Develop the most wonderful kernel and userspace in the world > but if no one uses it what is the point? The point is to keep hacking on something you love and enjoy. Honestly, do you think "the point" is to acquire a large user base? Do you think the developers invest their time and effort hoping to kick-up the numbers reported by people like netcraft? They spend their time and effort doing what they love, and kindly make it freely available for others. I've created and maintained a few (very) small open source applications, and I can honestly say that I only created them for me. I needed/wanted something that either didn't exist, or did but had lousy documentation. I don't track the number of downloads each get. I could care less. I'm not interested in that. I just put them online in case anyone else was interested. To help out any such interested people, I took the time to create some documentation that at least tries to be adequate for a non-developer. ...and when I get an email from a new user asking a question that's clearly answered in the documentation (or could be easily answered by just *trying* some small test/experiment), I don't even bother responding. Why should I? So I can hold their hand for a few days? So I can increase my precious "user base"??? I didn't create the programs for them. OpenBSD, as an OS, is huge... there are *tons* of questions people could ask. The dev's would rather hack than hold hands, and most (serious) users would rather they do that too. I like new features, new hardware support, and fewer bugs... I could care less if you get help with a question that you could easily answer yourself. And the devs really have invested tons-o-effort in good, useful documentation. It's actively maintained along with the code, not as an after-thought or "when they get around to it." They take it seriously, and that's rare. > Since your attitude to new > users is "get lost" that reflects very poorly on yourself and > indirectly OpenBSD. No, Stas's "attitude" wasn't towards new users. It was towards new users who cannot help themselves. There's a huge difference, and that seems to be what you're missing. -Ryan
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Greg Thomas wrote: > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Aaron Glenn wrote: > >> >> sincerity by itself is useless. if you can't take the time to read the >> concise, thoughtfully produced information provided in both manual >> pages, the FAQ, and the mailing list archives then you will most >> definitely be told to gfy and read what has been painstakingly written >> for your benefit. any other response is borne from pity. >> >> > Not reading the fine documentation is a sign of obvious insincerity. [...] Because most Linux distros' have inaccurate/incomplete documentation most of the time, it is difficult to find "reliable" answers. Hence, the tendency of linux users to ask questions first. Obviously, my experience strongly indicates that OpenBSD strives very hard for the same level of correctness in their documentation, as their code and hence folks get most of the stuff from the docs (either the man pages, or the FAQ). This is a cultural difference, and I don't see Linux bridging that gap anytime soon -- they are too busy with adding bell and whistles to the kernel, that are useless most of the time for most of the folks. -Amarendra
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> My "fix" has nothing to do with childish attitude or being more nerdy than > you. It has everything do with GNU's twisted definition of freedom. > Yet, that's YOUR view on the subject. My views are quite different. You probably hate the GPL. I like it. So let's stop arguing because this is already off-topic. You won't be able to change my views, and I won't even try to change yours.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Sure. . . I'll add some "wisdom" to this thread . . . I'm feeling up to it! On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:43 PM, Zachary Uram wrote: > You get lost. You seem to think the project exists as an end unto > itself. > Is there a reason why it can't? >Develop the most wonderful kernel and userspace in the world > but if no one uses it what is the point? Inherent value . . . Shits-n-giggles . . . Woop-dee-doo . . . >Since your attitude to new > users is "get lost" that reflects very poorly on yourself and > indirectly OpenBSD. > Take a step back and think/read about this OS. You feel backed into a corner . . . understandable, but all of these responses (sarcastic and not) are hitting the nail on the head. After a bit of reflection (rather than reaction), you'll get the point. You are owed nothing . . . not even cheerfulness. ;-) Neal
Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration
I'm adding the Xorg.0 logs. --- On Thu, 4/15/10, Super Biscuit wrote: From: Super Biscuit Subject: Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration To: "Bryan Irvine" Cc: misc@openbsd.org Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 1:56 AM My apologies beforehand for using this message again. I had set the Vert and Horiz values according to those here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=20481&start=60 The monitor I have is the same, I did try out the recommendation and the results were the same. I also notice that the card is listed as a rage re/sg but the /usr README lists it pro pf. I have also loaded the ati driver during boot using -c DKM> enable ati. More information: 16" diagonal for visible screen, powermac blue and white model. If there is anything else that I am missing, let me know. --- On Wed, 4/14/10, Bryan Irvine wrote: From: Bryan Irvine Subject: Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration To: "Super Biscuit" Cc: misc@openbsd.org Date: Wednesday, April 14, 2010, 9:23 PM On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Super Biscuit wrote: > $uname -a > OpenBSD moo.my.domain 4.6 GENERIC#43 macppc > > I have followed the howto section in the readme file and remain with an 8bit resolution at 800x600. > If there is anything wrong with my configuration? > X did not start with new_xorg.conf.1.text or new_xorg.conf.2.txt. > The only working xorg.conf which had good resolution was from a previous debian install done with an ubuntu live disk. > I do realize that there is a difference between the OSes; but, the xorg.conf and resolutions should be the same for both. I went through this a few years and got it going with a little help from Nick. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=116492822327679&w=2 -B (--) Using wscons driver X.Org X Server 1.5.3 Release Date: 5 November 2008 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 Build Operating System: OpenBSD 4.6 macppc Current Operating System: OpenBSD moo.my.domain 4.6 GENERIC#43 macppc Build Date: 01 July 2009 05:44:48PM Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org to make sure that you have the latest version. Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Wed Apr 14 18:55:20 2010 (==) Using config file: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf" Parse error on line 91 of section Screen in file /etc/X11/xorg.conf Unexpected EOF. Missing EndSection keyword? (--) Using wscons driver X.Org X Server 1.5.3 Release Date: 5 November 2008 X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0 Build Operating System: OpenBSD 4.6 macppc Current Operating System: OpenBSD moo.my.domain 4.6 GENERIC#43 macppc Build Date: 01 July 2009 05:44:48PM Before reporting problems, check http://wiki.x.org to make sure that you have the latest version. Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational, (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown. (==) Log file: "/var/log/Xorg.0.log", Time: Wed Apr 14 20:35:24 2010 (==) Using config file: "/etc/X11/xorg.conf" (==) ServerLayout "wsfb" (**) |-->Screen "Screen0" (0) (**) | |-->Monitor "Monitor" (**) | |-->Device "Wsdisplay0" (**) |-->Input Device "Mouse0" (**) |-->Input Device "Keyboard0" (==) Not automatically adding devices (==) Not automatically enabling devices (==) Including the default font path /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/OTF,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/,/usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/. (**) FontPath set to: /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/OTF/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/misc/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/OTF, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/Type1/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi/, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi/ (==) ModulePath set to "/usr/X11R6/lib/modules" (II) Loader magic: 0x19b199c (II) Module ABI versions: X.Org ANSI C Emulation: 0.4 X.Org Video Driver: 4.1 X.Org XInput driver : 2.1 X.Org Server Extension : 1.1 X.Org Font Renderer : 0.6 (II) Loader running on openbsd (--) PCI:*(0...@0:16:0) ATI Rage 128 rev 0, Mem @ 0x01a1ec68/0, 0x01a1ec68/0, I/O @ 0x01a1ec68/0, BIOS @ 0x/27389032 (II) System resource ranges: [0] -1 0 0x019fde80 - 0x (0x10) MX[B]E(B) [1] -1 0 0x019fde80 - 0x (0xf) MX[B] [2] -1 0 0x019fde80 - 0x (0xc) MX[B] [3] -1 0 0x019fde80 - 0x (0x0) MX[B] [4] -1 0
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Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration
My apologies beforehand for using this message again. I had set the Vert and Horiz values according to those here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=20481&start=60 The monitor I have is the same, I did try out the recommendation and the results were the same. I also notice that the card is listed as a rage re/sg but the /usr README lists it pro pf. I have also loaded the ati driver during boot using -c DKM> enable ati. More information: 16" diagonal for visible screen, powermac blue and white model. If there is anything else that I am missing, let me know. --- On Wed, 4/14/10, Bryan Irvine wrote: From: Bryan Irvine Subject: Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration To: "Super Biscuit" Cc: misc@openbsd.org Date: Wednesday, April 14, 2010, 9:23 PM On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Super Biscuit wrote: > $uname -a > OpenBSD moo.my.domain 4.6 GENERIC#43 macppc > > I have followed the howto section in the readme file and remain with an 8bit > resolution at 800x600. > If there is anything wrong with my configuration? > X did not start with new_xorg.conf.1.text or new_xorg.conf.2.txt. > The only working xorg.conf which had good resolution was from a previous > debian install done with an ubuntu live disk. > I do realize that there is a difference between the OSes; but, the xorg.conf > and resolutions should be the same for both. I went through this a few years and got it going with a little help from Nick. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=116492822327679&w=2 -B
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Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 6:14 PM, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO < vt...@c3sl.ufpr.br> wrote: > > > > > > I'm much more inclined to the GNU/Linux philosophy of Limitation > > > > > > > Fixed that for you. > > > > Greg > > > > This kind of childish attitude is what I meant when I said: > > > You will find this almost everywhere. One particular issue of some > > OpenBSD users is that they feel cool because they use OpenBSD over > > GNU/Linux. Like: "Hey you use Linux? I use OpenBSD, I'm more nerdy > > than you are, your loser". Something like that. > > He thinks he can change other people minds by posting his "fix". > It's funny. > My "fix" has nothing to do with childish attitude or being more nerdy than you. It has everything do with GNU's twisted definition of freedom. Greg
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Zachary Uram wrote: > > Sorry a lot of people got upset by my message. I will try to learn > OpenBSD on my own since that is the way to do it here. > That is the way to learn most anything that actually matters. I don't think that people were so much upset as they prefer to gladly make fools suffer than to gladly suffer fools. They're actually very nice people. (I have yet to get my just deserts:-)
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> > I'm much more inclined to the GNU/Linux philosophy of Limitation > > > > Fixed that for you. > > Greg > This kind of childish attitude is what I meant when I said: > You will find this almost everywhere. One particular issue of some > OpenBSD users is that they feel cool because they use OpenBSD over > GNU/Linux. Like: "Hey you use Linux? I use OpenBSD, I'm more nerdy > than you are, your loser". Something like that. He thinks he can change other people minds by posting his "fix". It's funny.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> Actually two of the top linux kernel developers answered my email > directly to them when I had some questions. There was no ridicule or > belittling. > lol! I WANT to see that! Really.
Testing bigmem properly on amd64?
I know bigmem is still in a state of flux and can be enabled by editing machdep.c and compiling a custom kernel. I also realise that it may or may not work on OpenBSD AMD64 due to the absence of an iommu on non VT-d capable Intel systems, aside from the AGP/PCI-e GART. What's the best way to test and report this? (GNATS etc?) Is booting up sufficient, or does it require extensive testing of memory transfers from each device to above the 4GB line? FWIW, with the latest kernel UHCI and AHC (specifically an Adaptec 29160 running in a 32 bit PCI slot) don't work on a 975X/Core2Quad system. Once that's fixed the system boots. (iic also needs to be disabled, but that's an issue specific to the D975XBX2 motherboard, not to bigmem). OpenBSD 4.7-current (GENERIC.MP) #0: Thu Apr 15 01:15:12 BST 2010 r...@gladstone.syllopsium.com:/usr/src/sys/arch/amd64/compile/GENERIC.MP real mem = 8585592832 (8187MB) avail mem = 8359256064 (7972MB) User Kernel Config UKC> disable iic 318 iic* disabled UKC> disable ahc 61 ahc* disabled UKC> disable uhci 132 uhci* disabled 133 uhci* disabled UKC> exit Continuing... RTC BIOS diagnostic error 80 mainbus0 at root bios0 at mainbus0: SMBIOS rev. 2.4 @ 0xe42e0 (39 entries) bios0: vendor Intel Corp. version "BX97520J.86A.2836.2008.0728.1946" date 07/28/2008 bios0: Intel Corporation D975XBX2 acpi0 at bios0: rev 0 acpi0: tables DSDT FACP APIC WDDT MCFG ASF! SSDT SSDT SSDT SSDT SSDT acpi0: wakeup devices SLPB(S4) P32_(S4) UAR1(S4) PEX0(S4) PEX1(S4) PEX2(S4) PEX3(S4) PEX4(S4) PEX5(S4) UHC1(S3) UHC2(S3) UHC3(S3) UHC4(S3) EHCI(S3) AC9M(S4) AZAL(S4) acpitimer0 at acpi0: 3579545 Hz, 24 bits acpimadt0 at acpi0 addr 0xfee0: PC-AT compat cpu0 at mainbus0: apid 0 (boot processor) cpu0: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66GHz, 2667.10 MHz cpu0: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,DS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,SBF,SSE3,MWAIT,DS-CPL,VMX,EST,TM2,SSSE3,CX16,xTPR,PDCM,NXE,LONG cpu0: 4MB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache cpu0: apic clock running at 266MHz cpu1 at mainbus0: apid 2 (application processor) cpu1: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66GHz, 2666.76 MHz cpu1: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,DS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,SBF,SSE3,MWAIT,DS-CPL,VMX,EST,TM2,SSSE3,CX16,xTPR,PDCM,NXE,LONG cpu1: 4MB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache cpu2 at mainbus0: apid 1 (application processor) cpu2: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66GHz, 2666.76 MHz cpu2: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,DS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,SBF,SSE3,MWAIT,DS-CPL,VMX,EST,TM2,SSSE3,CX16,xTPR,PDCM,NXE,LONG cpu2: 4MB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache cpu3 at mainbus0: apid 3 (application processor) cpu3: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66GHz, 2666.76 MHz cpu3: FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUSH,DS,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,SS,HTT,TM,SBF,SSE3,MWAIT,DS-CPL,VMX,EST,TM2,SSSE3,CX16,xTPR,PDCM,NXE,LONG cpu3: 4MB 64b/line 16-way L2 cache ioapic0 at mainbus0: apid 2 pa 0xfec0, version 20, 24 pins ioapic0: misconfigured as apic 0, remapped to apid 2 acpiprt0 at acpi0: bus 0 (PCI0) acpiprt1 at acpi0: bus 4 (P32_) acpiprt2 at acpi0: bus 2 (PEX0) acpiprt3 at acpi0: bus -1 (PEX1) acpiprt4 at acpi0: bus -1 (PEX2) acpiprt5 at acpi0: bus -1 (PEX3) acpiprt6 at acpi0: bus -1 (PEX4) acpiprt7 at acpi0: bus 3 (PEX5) acpicpu0 at acpi0: PSS acpicpu1 at acpi0: PSS acpicpu2 at acpi0: PSS acpicpu3 at acpi0: PSS acpibtn0 at acpi0: SLPB cpu0: Enhanced SpeedStep 2666 MHz: speeds: 2660, 2128, 1596 MHz pci0 at mainbus0 bus 0 pchb0 at pci0 dev 0 function 0 "Intel 82975X Host" rev 0x00 ppb0 at pci0 dev 1 function 0 "Intel 82975X PCIE" rev 0x00: apic 2 int 16 (irq 255) pci1 at ppb0 bus 1 vga1 at pci1 dev 0 function 0 "NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTX" rev 0xa2 wsdisplay0 at vga1 mux 1: console (80x25, vt100 emulation) wsdisplay0: screen 1-5 added (80x25, vt100 emulation) azalia0 at pci0 dev 27 function 0 "Intel 82801GB HD Audio" rev 0x01: apic 2 int 22 (irq 9) azalia0: codecs: Sigmatel STAC9274D audio0 at azalia0 ppb1 at pci0 dev 28 function 0 "Intel 82801GB PCIE" rev 0x01: apic 2 int 17 (irq 255) pci2 at ppb1 bus 2 "NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT" rev 0xa1 at pci2 dev 0 function 0 not configured ppb2 at pci0 dev 28 function 5 "Intel 82801G PCIE" rev 0x01: apic 2 int 16 (irq 255) pci3 at ppb2 bus 3 em0 at pci3 dev 0 function 0 "Intel PRO/1000MT (82573L)" rev 0x00: apic 2 int 17 (irq 10), address 00:19:d1:39:64:ed "Intel 82801GB USB" rev 0x01 at pci0 dev 29 function 0 not configured "Intel 82801GB USB" rev 0x01 at pci0 dev 29 function 1 not configured "Intel 82801GB USB" rev 0x01 at pci0 dev 29 function 2 not configured "Intel 82801GB USB" rev 0x01 at pci0 dev 29 function 3 not configured ehci0 at pci0 dev 29 function 7 "Intel 82801GB USB" rev 0x01: apic 2 int 23 (irq 11) ehci0: run timeout ehci0: init failed, error=13 ppb3 at pci0 dev 30 function 0 "Intel 8280
Re: OpenBSD culture?
I am POSITIVE you are a troll. > -Original Message- > From: Zachary Uram [mailto:net...@gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 7:58 PM > To: Tony Abernethy > Cc: Bret S. Lambert; misc@openbsd.org > Subject: Re: OpenBSD culture? > > As does yours. Try being positive instead of negative. > > Zach > > <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> > > > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Tony Abernethy > wrote: > > Zachary Uram wrote: > >> > >> Your attitude proves my point. I was not trolling. Grow up! > >> > > Another of the type of statement guaranteed to be false.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Zachary Uram wrote: > Develop the most wonderful kernel and userspace in the world > but if no one uses it what is the point? It appears you haven't read the project's goals: http://openbsd.org/goals.html Quote: "Focus on being developer-oriented in all senses..."
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> > The difference is that OpenBSD is for advanced users. > > depends how you define advanced. > Yes. Imagine someone who use computers, like 2 hours a week and use Windows. If you give him a computer with one of those GNU/Linux distros aimed at ease of use he will probably get along easily - until he receives a file in a proprietary format or need to use some wireless card. If you give OpenBSD to this person, he probably won't use it at all. > when people say "OpenBSD is for developers", that does't mean you > have to be as knowledgable as a kernel hacker to use OpenBSD > effectively. it means you'll get the most out of OpenBSD when you > approach it like a developer. developers *enjoy* figuring things > out on their own. of course, people who enjoy learning about a > subject do eventually become "advanced" at that subject, but that > comes with time. > Yes, I'm not a kernel hacker, not even a developer. But I'm familiar with *nix commands, reading man pages, etc. Unlike most computer users.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> Actually two of the top linux kernel developers answered my email > directly to them when I had some questions. There was no ridicule or > belittling. Please get off the mailing lists and go read the documentation.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
As does yours. Try being positive instead of negative. Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Tony Abernethy wrote: > Zachary Uram wrote: >> >> Your attitude proves my point. I was not trolling. Grow up! >> > Another of the type of statement guaranteed to be false.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Zachary Uram wrote: > > You get lost. You seem to think the project exists as an end unto > itself. Develop the most wonderful kernel and userspace in the world > but if no one uses it what is the point? Since your attitude to new > users is "get lost" that reflects very poorly on yourself and > indirectly OpenBSD. > You seem to be under the misconception that you alone are the rest of the universe. Did it ever occur to you that the developers just might be doing what they are doing for their own purposes? How many people get to have an operating system that does exactly as their whims dictate?
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Sorry a lot of people got upset by my message. I will try to learn OpenBSD on my own since that is the way to do it here. Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><>
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Actually two of the top linux kernel developers answered my email directly to them when I had some questions. There was no ridicule or belittling. Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Bayard Bell wrote: > Am 14 Apr 2010 um 14:50 schrieb Theo de Raadt: > >> I guess this is the "get lost" mail he is referring to. >> >> Yes, it is a damn fair assessment. B When you pay your taxes, do you go >> make a personal request for assistance of your prime minister? >> >> Your mail lies about what you saw, so here is the full exchange: > > Surely he's contrasting his Linux experience based on the response to > something like: > > Torvalds, > > I have been hearing very good things about Linux from people whose opinions > I value highly. I have a MacBook and a Windows PC on which I'd like to run > Linux "dual-boot" with the existing operating system. Could you please > recommend a distribution and provide detailed installation instructions for > each. Do you need to know the exact models? Do you need to know which > version of Mac and Windows I am running? I am happy to provide that > information if necessary. > > Look forward to hearing from you soon, and please keep up the good work! > > Cheers, > n00b
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Zachary Uram wrote: > > Your attitude proves my point. I was not trolling. Grow up! > Another of the type of statement guaranteed to be false.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 8:15 AM, Chris Bennett wrote: > OpenBSD does indeed have a different culture. > You are expected to try and learn on your own. > If you make that attempt and still fail, you will probably get some help. > If you have a problem with a port or hardware and clearly explain the > problem with all the details needed, someone will probably help fix it. > > If you just want to complain you will always get the same reply: > Stop your whining and submit a patch! > Good patches are accepted and committed. > > Perhaps you could answer a Linux question for me. > I want the CORRECT answer, not an opinion. > Which is the correct Linux distribution for me to use? Thanks for explaining Chris. To answer the Linux question there is no easy answer. Linux has hundreds of distributions each with strengths and weaknesses. Good question. Zach
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Thanks peter will read through it. Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:44 AM, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: > Zachary Uram writes: > >> As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been >> reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was >> very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in >> Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain >> level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I >> have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less >> interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely >> on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that >> smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair >> assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? > > Funny you should ask. B http://www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-culture.pdf > is one developer's take on the culture of the project (a nice talk as > I remember it). > > But then again, what usually comes as a surprise to people who are > used to Linux (or in fact most other systems) is that you're rarely > left to "find the answer solely on your own" because here > documentation actually exists and is generally quite usable. B So > essentially answers consisting of 'RTFM' or man page references are a > lot more useful in an OpenBSD context than a newcomer might think. > > While you're still preparing to try out the system, you could usefully > browse the web site. B It contains a FAQ that has what most people > would expect from a user manual, very much worth reading in full a few > times because that actually helps newcomers a lot (and occasionally us > greybacks), and the actual man pages are there too, searchable via a > web interface. > > Once you've installed the system, > > $ apropos keyword > > will actually yield useful results. > > Then again, we've seen time and again that people who expect OpenBSD > users to be thoroughly unpleasant have found ways to get their > expecations fulfilled too. B It's even possible some have a special > knack for just that. ;P > > -- > Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team > http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/ > "Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic" > delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
You get lost. You seem to think the project exists as an end unto itself. Develop the most wonderful kernel and userspace in the world but if no one uses it what is the point? Since your attitude to new users is "get lost" that reflects very poorly on yourself and indirectly OpenBSD. Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 7:23 AM, Stas Miasnikou wrote: > Zachary Uram P?P8QP5Q: >> >> As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been >> reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was >> very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in >> Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain >> level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I >> have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less >> interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely >> on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that >> smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair >> assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? > > If you can not help yourself how can you help the project? B Get lost. > > B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B B Stas
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Ok will read it. Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:25 AM, Sergey Bronnikov wrote: > read this paper - www.openbsd.org/papers/opencon06-culture.pdf > > On 05:11 Wed 14 Apr , Zachary Uram wrote: >> As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been >> reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was >> very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in >> Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain >> level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I >> have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less >> interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely >> on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that >> smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair >> assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? >> >> Zach >> >> <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> >> > > -- > sergeyb@
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Your attitude proves my point. I was not trolling. Grow up! Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:22 AM, Bret S. Lambert wrote: > Internet troll is on the Internet. > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 05:11:56AM -0400, Zachary Uram wrote: >> As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been >> reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was >> very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in >> Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain >> level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I >> have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less >> interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely >> on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that >> smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair >> assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? >> >> Zach >> >> <>< http://www.fidei.org ><>
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Aaron Glenn wrote: > > sincerity by itself is useless. if you can't take the time to read the > concise, thoughtfully produced information provided in both manual > pages, the FAQ, and the mailing list archives then you will most > definitely be told to gfy and read what has been painstakingly written > for your benefit. any other response is borne from pity. > > Not reading the fine documentation is a sign of obvious insincerity. Greg
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 3:33 PM, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO < vt...@c3sl.ufpr.br> wrote: > Flame war ahead! > > > As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been > > reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was > > very rude. > > OMG you sent mail to Theo de Radt asking for help? > > > There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in Linux, but if > > a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain level of > > friendliness in Linux community towards them. > > Linux is a kernel. That attitude will vary between lists for > specific packages. It varies with different people too. > > If you ask things about Linux on, say, the Bash list, you will > probably get an similar response. > > The difference is that OpenBSD is for advanced users. Some (not > all) GNU/Linux distros are intended for people that asks things > such as "How do I grab a package?". Nothing wrong about either, > just different audiences. > > > Just what I have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more > > abrupt and less interested in helping newbies, they prefer one > > find the answer solely on their own if possible. > > Yes. > > > I must say I detect a certain attitude that smacks of superiority > > and even condescension at times. Is this a fair assessment of the > > OpenBSD culture? > > > > You will find this almost everywhere. One particular issue of some > OpenBSD users is that they feel cool because they use OpenBSD over > GNU/Linux. Like: "Hey you use Linux? I use OpenBSD, I'm more nerdy > than you are, your loser". Something like that. > > I'm much more inclined to the GNU/Linux philosophy of Limitation > Fixed that for you. Greg
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Zachary Uram wrote: > As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been > reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was > very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in > Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain > level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I > have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less > interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely > on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that > smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair > assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? sincerity by itself is useless. if you can't take the time to read the concise, thoughtfully produced information provided in both manual pages, the FAQ, and the mailing list archives then you will most definitely be told to gfy and read what has been painstakingly written for your benefit. any other response is borne from pity.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, 14 Apr 2010, Jacob Meuser wrote: SNIP approach it like a developer. developers *enjoy* figuring things out on their own. of course, people who enjoy learning about a subject do eventually become "advanced" at that subject, but that comes with time. yep, like I know a lot more about alfalfa, fertilzer and weed control since I planted several acres. I did a LOT of reading on Ag sites before I started asking questions at the feed store. diana PS I did contact Theo right after he started up OpenBSD with some stupid installation question. He pretty much told me if I didn't understand how to fix the problem maybe I shouldn't be using OpenBSD. Shoot, that just made me mad as hell, I thought to myself I can figure this out and did.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
If you don't say stupid shit or ask stupid questions you won't get told to "Get lost". It's as simple as that. The OBSD team has already done a *ton* of work that answers your questions already. It is an insult to them to not do even a tiny amount of work yourself. On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 07:50 -0600, "Theo de Raadt" wrote: > > As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been > > reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was > > very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in > > Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain > > level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I > > have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less > > interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely > > on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that > > smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair > > assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? > > I guess this is the "get lost" mail he is referring to. > > Yes, it is a damn fair assessment. When you pay your taxes, do you go > make a personal request for assistance of your prime minister? > > Your mail lies about what you saw, so here is the full exchange: > > --- > > To: Zachary Uram > Subject: Re: hi > In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Apr 2010 20:27:54 EDT." > > Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 12:35:26 -0600 > From: Theo de Raadt > > > I am a long time Linux user and am interested in trying OpenBSD for > > its reputation in being secure. > > > > Can I install OpenBSD along side Linux and Windows in the Grub 2 boot > > loader? I downloaded the OpenBSD 4.6 boot CD. > > > > I was wondering if there are any free guides or books for teaching > > Linux users how to make the transition to OpenBSD system > > administration? > > > > Currently I run Debian testing on my desktop and Debian stable on my VPS. > > You have to be joking me. Questions like that is what the web is there > for.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 07:33:20PM -0300, VICTOR TARABOLA CORTIANO wrote: > The difference is that OpenBSD is for advanced users. depends how you define advanced. when people say "OpenBSD is for developers", that does't mean you have to be as knowledgable as a kernel hacker to use OpenBSD effectively. it means you'll get the most out of OpenBSD when you approach it like a developer. developers *enjoy* figuring things out on their own. of course, people who enjoy learning about a subject do eventually become "advanced" at that subject, but that comes with time. -- jake...@sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
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Re: OpenBSD culture?
On 15/04/2010, at 12:15 AM, Chris Bennett wrote: Zachary Uram wrote: As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org ><> OpenBSD does indeed have a different culture. You are expected to try and learn on your own. If you make that attempt and still fail, you will probably get some help. If you have a problem with a port or hardware and clearly explain the problem with all the details needed, someone will probably help fix it. If you just want to complain you will always get the same reply: Stop your whining and submit a patch! Good patches are accepted and committed. Perhaps you could answer a Linux question for me. I want the CORRECT answer, not an opinion. Which is the correct Linux distribution for me to use? For the general case, don't use linux directly, there is a rather good 'linux-like' OS called OpenBSD that you should be using. If, for some specific reason you *really* need to run the genuine linux, that is a cross you'll have to bear, but since you havn't told us what those specific reasons are we cant possibly give the *correct* answer for your situation. paulm
Re: licensing
On 15/04/2010, at 8:16 AM, Ted Roby wrote: I had googled all of this before my first post. In fact, I have been in contact with the current maintainers of the project. They have explicit permission, but that doesn't give me explicit permission. Ok, now I'm confused. You've been ranting for a while now, but what exactly is your question??? As I read it, you have updates to some code which has an unfriendly license, and you cant contact the licensor to get permission. Is this a fair summary? If so, what does this have to do with us? Further more - if you've been in contact with the current maintainers, who have been in contact with the licensor, cannot they put you in contact? (please don't answer this question - I really dont care what you or they have to say on this. It's rhetorical). Please clarify what you want from this list. paulm
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Flame war ahead! > As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been > reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was > very rude. OMG you sent mail to Theo de Radt asking for help? > There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in Linux, but if > a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain level of > friendliness in Linux community towards them. Linux is a kernel. That attitude will vary between lists for specific packages. It varies with different people too. If you ask things about Linux on, say, the Bash list, you will probably get an similar response. The difference is that OpenBSD is for advanced users. Some (not all) GNU/Linux distros are intended for people that asks things such as "How do I grab a package?". Nothing wrong about either, just different audiences. > Just what I have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more > abrupt and less interested in helping newbies, they prefer one > find the answer solely on their own if possible. Yes. > I must say I detect a certain attitude that smacks of superiority > and even condescension at times. Is this a fair assessment of the > OpenBSD culture? > You will find this almost everywhere. One particular issue of some OpenBSD users is that they feel cool because they use OpenBSD over GNU/Linux. Like: "Hey you use Linux? I use OpenBSD, I'm more nerdy than you are, your loser". Something like that. I'm much more inclined to the GNU/Linux philosophy of Freedom, but I do like OpenBSD technically, and I use it because I want to learn how to write good operating system code. And also, OpenBSD is the only "non GNU/Linux", free, operating system that has the features I want and is not full of non-free drivers and stuff like that. You shouldn't decide what OS you will use based on your opinion on the developers. I don't like Linus Torvalds, not one bit. But I do use his kernel. I'm don't particularly love Theo, but I do use his OS.
Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration
Thank you for replying. I'll try his suggestions and will report if it works. My question now is: How much of xorg.conf can I import from the debian xorg.conf? Apologies beforehand.- if the question offend anyone. --- On Wed, 4/14/10, Bryan Irvine wrote: From: Bryan Irvine Subject: Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration To: "Super Biscuit" Cc: misc@openbsd.org Date: Wednesday, April 14, 2010, 9:23 PM On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Super Biscuit wrote: > $uname -a > OpenBSD moo.my.domain 4.6 GENERIC#43 macppc > > I have followed the howto section in the readme file and remain with an 8bit > resolution at 800x600. > If there is anything wrong with my configuration? > X did not start with new_xorg.conf.1.text or new_xorg.conf.2.txt. > The only working xorg.conf which had good resolution was from a previous > debian install done with an ubuntu live disk. > I do realize that there is a difference between the OSes; but, the xorg.conf > and resolutions should be the same for both. I went through this a few years and got it going with a little help from Nick. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=116492822327679&w=2 -B
Re: softraid performance problem when rebuilding
First let me defend softraid. The rebuild code is designed to offer
maximum data protection. With this is mind certain assumptions were
made.
That said, I am not opposed to a patch to improve performance but with
all things softraid corner-cases are many and complicated. A valid
patch will keep (at least) the following things in mind:
* Read/Write failure on valid disks
* Colliders in front or back of rebuild IO
* Multi chunk failures
The code also SHALL reuse normal IO paths. This code can not be made
much more complicated before violating the KISS principle. The patch
bellow is a little iffy because I don't know (yet) how this would
manifest itself in the afore mentioned cases.
But, improve the patch and make sure you cover the corner cases and we
might have a winner.
/marco
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:25:25PM +, Matthew Roberts wrote:
> I wrote:
>> I have been experimenting with a softraid mirror, using two cheap SATA
>> disks.
>> In general the performance is very good - except when rebuilding. A quick
>> set of sums suggests that the problem is seek time.
>>
>> The disks are 7200rpm, therefore one can hope for 120 seeks per second.
>> "systat iostat" (while rebuilding) gives this (edited to fit in an email):
>>
>> DEVICE READWRITE RTPSWTPS SEC
>> wd0 3801088 3827302 58 59 1.0
>> wd10 38010880 58 0.0
>> sd0000 0 0.0
>> Totals 3801088 7628390 58 117 1.0
>
> [snip]
>
> I've patched src/sys/dev/softraid_raid1.c so that my machine doesn't write
> back to the source chunk(s) when rebuilding - making sure that the other
> writes go to both disks.
>
> Now my rebuild speed is much better:
>
> DEVICE READWRITE RTPSWTPS SEC
> wd0 61525196 9830 938 0 0.5
> wd10 615251960 938 0.5
> sd0000 0 0.0
> Totals 61525196 61535027 938 939 1.0
>
> ---
>
> FWIW: I found that the rebuild code is (currently) only used by raid1, so
> there is no benefit in increasing the buffer size for all rebuild vs tweaking
> the rebuild logic.
>
> ---
>
> I've tested this patch on a virtual-box machine with a 3 way raid 1 mirror
> and it seems to do sensible things there. (i.e. reads from the good disks,
> rebuild writes go only to the bad disk, other writes go to all disks and no
> data corruption).
>
> I'm now running it on my (experimental) real machine... and the performance
> increase is substantial, as you can see above. (Fingers crossed that my
> data will be safe).
>
> The patch feels a bit "copy-and-paste"y, and I'll tidy it up in a day or
> so (and repost). But if you want to risk it, here it is:
>
> xerxes:~/new_src/src/sys/dev$ cvs diff -u softraid_raid1.c
> Index: softraid_raid1.c
> ===
> RCS file: /cvs/src/sys/dev/softraid_raid1.c,v
> retrieving revision 1.23
> diff -u softraid_raid1.c
> --- softraid_raid1.c26 Mar 2010 11:20:34 - 1.23
> +++ softraid_raid1.c14 Apr 2010 21:10:55 -
> @@ -447,13 +447,25 @@
> }
> } else {
> /* writes go on all working disks */
> + /* XXX - copy and paste code warning */
> x = i;
> scp = sd->sd_vol.sv_chunks[x];
> switch (scp->src_meta.scm_status) {
> - case BIOC_SDONLINE:
> case BIOC_SDSCRUB:
> case BIOC_SDREBUILD:
> b->b_flags |= B_WRITE;
> + break;
> +
> + case BIOC_SDONLINE:
> + /* when rebuilding, take care to only send the
> +* rebuild writes to disks that need them
> +*/
> + if (wu->swu_flags & SR_WUF_REBUILD) {
> + wu->swu_io_count--;
> + sr_ccb_put(ccb);
> + continue;
> + } else
> + b->b_flags |= B_WRITE;
> break;
>
> case BIOC_SDHOTSPARE: /* should never happen */
Re: softraid performance problem when rebuilding
Matthew Roberts wrote: > I wrote: >> I have been experimenting with a softraid mirror, using two cheap SATA >> disks. >> In general the performance is very good - except when rebuilding. A >> quick >> set of sums suggests that the problem is seek time. >> >> The disks are 7200rpm, therefore one can hope for 120 seeks per second. >> "systat iostat" (while rebuilding) gives this (edited to fit in an >> email): >> >> DEVICE READWRITE RTPSWTPS SEC >> wd0 3801088 3827302 58 59 1.0 >> wd10 38010880 58 0.0 >> sd0000 0 0.0 >> Totals 3801088 7628390 58 117 1.0 > > [snip] > > I've patched src/sys/dev/softraid_raid1.c so that my machine doesn't write > back to the source chunk(s) when rebuilding - making sure that the other > writes go to both disks. > > Now my rebuild speed is much better: > > DEVICE READWRITE RTPSWTPS SEC > wd0 61525196 9830 938 0 0.5 > wd10 615251960 938 0.5 > sd0000 0 0.0 > Totals 61525196 61535027 938 939 1.0 > > --- > > FWIW: I found that the rebuild code is (currently) only used by raid1, so > there is no benefit in increasing the buffer size for all rebuild vs > tweaking > the rebuild logic. > > --- > > I've tested this patch on a virtual-box machine with a 3 way raid 1 mirror > and it seems to do sensible things there. (i.e. reads from the good disks, > rebuild writes go only to the bad disk, other writes go to all disks and no > data corruption). > > I'm now running it on my (experimental) real machine... and the performance > increase is substantial, as you can see above. (Fingers crossed that my > data will be safe). > > The patch feels a bit "copy-and-paste"y, and I'll tidy it up in a day or > so (and repost). But if you want to risk it, here it is: When reposting, be sure not to mangle the tabs in the diff again... ;-) [mangled diff stripped]
Re: 4.6 (i386) 008_kerberos.patch : undefined reference to `xfspioctl'
>>Did you select comp*.tgz when upgrading from 4.5 to 4.6? Do you have old >>header files lingering in /usr/include? Selection was as default, apart from "-x*" to deslect all the X clutter. Will go take a look around /usr/include.
Re: softraid performance problem when rebuilding
I wrote:
I have been experimenting with a softraid mirror, using two cheap SATA
disks.
In general the performance is very good - except when rebuilding. A quick
set of sums suggests that the problem is seek time.
The disks are 7200rpm, therefore one can hope for 120 seeks per second.
"systat iostat" (while rebuilding) gives this (edited to fit in an email):
DEVICE READWRITE RTPSWTPS SEC
wd0 3801088 3827302 58 59 1.0
wd10 38010880 58 0.0
sd0000 0 0.0
Totals 3801088 7628390 58 117 1.0
[snip]
I've patched src/sys/dev/softraid_raid1.c so that my machine doesn't write
back to the source chunk(s) when rebuilding - making sure that the other
writes go to both disks.
Now my rebuild speed is much better:
DEVICE READWRITE RTPSWTPS SEC
wd0 61525196 9830 938 0 0.5
wd10 615251960 938 0.5
sd0000 0 0.0
Totals 61525196 61535027 938 939 1.0
---
FWIW: I found that the rebuild code is (currently) only used by raid1, so
there is no benefit in increasing the buffer size for all rebuild vs tweaking
the rebuild logic.
---
I've tested this patch on a virtual-box machine with a 3 way raid 1 mirror
and it seems to do sensible things there. (i.e. reads from the good disks,
rebuild writes go only to the bad disk, other writes go to all disks and no
data corruption).
I'm now running it on my (experimental) real machine... and the performance
increase is substantial, as you can see above. (Fingers crossed that my
data will be safe).
The patch feels a bit "copy-and-paste"y, and I'll tidy it up in a day or
so (and repost). But if you want to risk it, here it is:
xerxes:~/new_src/src/sys/dev$ cvs diff -u softraid_raid1.c
Index: softraid_raid1.c
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/sys/dev/softraid_raid1.c,v
retrieving revision 1.23
diff -u softraid_raid1.c
--- softraid_raid1.c26 Mar 2010 11:20:34 - 1.23
+++ softraid_raid1.c14 Apr 2010 21:10:55 -
@@ -447,13 +447,25 @@
}
} else {
/* writes go on all working disks */
+ /* XXX - copy and paste code warning */
x = i;
scp = sd->sd_vol.sv_chunks[x];
switch (scp->src_meta.scm_status) {
- case BIOC_SDONLINE:
case BIOC_SDSCRUB:
case BIOC_SDREBUILD:
b->b_flags |= B_WRITE;
+ break;
+
+ case BIOC_SDONLINE:
+ /* when rebuilding, take care to only send the
+* rebuild writes to disks that need them
+*/
+ if (wu->swu_flags & SR_WUF_REBUILD) {
+ wu->swu_io_count--;
+ sr_ccb_put(ccb);
+ continue;
+ } else
+ b->b_flags |= B_WRITE;
break;
case BIOC_SDHOTSPARE: /* should never happen */
Re: Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Super Biscuit wrote: > $uname -a > OpenBSD moo.my.domain 4.6 GENERIC#43 macppc > > I have followed the howto section in the readme file and remain with an 8bit > resolution at 800x600. > If there is anything wrong with my configuration? > X did not start with new_xorg.conf.1.text or new_xorg.conf.2.txt. > The only working xorg.conf which had good resolution was from a previous > debian install done with an ubuntu live disk. > I do realize that there is a difference between the OSes; but, the xorg.conf > and resolutions should be the same for both. I went through this a few years and got it going with a little help from Nick. http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=116492822327679&w=2 -B
Re: 4.6 (i386) 008_kerberos.patch : undefined reference to `xfspioctl'
A quick poke around /usr/include/kerberosV looks pretty much the same as another 4.6 box (file sizes and creation dates all seem to be the same, and a random md5 of krb5.h yields the same hash).
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Jean-Philippe Ouellet < jean-phili...@ouellet.biz> wrote: > > It has been been my experience that if you are willing to read the relevant > documentation and honestly try to fix your problem on your own but simply > cannot, the OpenBSD community will be *extremely* responsive and help you. > > However, if you ask something that can be resolved by a simple search on > google/the mailing list archives, then you obviously are not willing to make > an effort, and you will get a response like you did. > > The amount of effort you put in before asking your question here is greatly > amplified in the response of the community, but unfortunately for lazy > people, 0 * 100 is still 0. > > This is exactly how it should be. In school, you show your work.
Xorg.conf with OpenBSD 4.6 macppc does not work with alternate configuration
$uname -a OpenBSD moo.my.domain 4.6 GENERIC#43 macppc I have followed the howto section in the readme file and remain with an 8bit resolution at 800x600. If there is anything wrong with my configuration? X did not start with new_xorg.conf.1.text or new_xorg.conf.2.txt. The only working xorg.conf which had good resolution was from a previous debian install done with an ubuntu live disk. I do realize that there is a difference between the OSes; but, the xorg.conf and resolutions should be the same for both. ation) uhidev0 at uhub0 port 1 configuration 1 interface 0 "CHESEN USB Keyboard" rev 1.10/1.10 addr 2 uhidev0: iclass 3/1 ukbd0 at uhidev0: 8 modifier keys, 6 key codes, country code 33 wskbd0 at ukbd0 mux 1 wskbd0: connecting to wsdisplay0 uhidev1 at uhub0 port 1 configuration 1 interface 1 "CHESEN USB Keyboard" rev 1.10/1.10 addr 2 uhidev1: iclass 3/0, 3 report ids uhid0 at uhidev1 reportid 2: input=1, output=0, feature=0 uhid1 at uhidev1 reportid 3: input=3, output=0, feature=0 uhidev2 at uhub0 port 2 configuration 1 interface 0 "Logitech USB Optical Mouse" rev 2.00/43.01 addr 3 uhidev2: iclass 3/1 ums0 at uhidev2: 3 buttons, Z dir wsmouse0 at ums0 mux 0 softraid0 at root bootpath: /pci/@d/pci-...@1/at...@0/d...@0:/bsd root on wd0a swap on wd0b dump on wd0b WARNING: / was not properly unmounted wd0a: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 414720 of 414720-414751 (wd0 bn 417744; cn 414 tn 6 sn 54), retrying wd0: soft error (corrected) wd0: transfer error, downgrading to Ultra-DMA mode 1 wd0(pciide0:0:0): using PIO mode 4, Ultra-DMA mode 1 wd0a: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 1658688 of 1658688-1658719 (wd0 bn 1661712; cn 1648 tn 8 sn 24), retrying wd0: soft error (corrected) wd0g: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 19488896 of 19488896-19488927 (wd0 bn 87914960; cn 87217 tn 3 sn 35), retrying wd0: soft error (corrected) wd0g: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 34001856 of 34001856-34001887 (wd0 bn 102427920; cn 101615 tn 0 sn 0), retrying wd0: soft error (corrected) wd0g: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 41465664 of 41465664-41465695 (wd0 bn 109891728; cn 109019 tn 9 sn 9), retrying wd0: soft error (corrected) wd0: transfer error, downgrading to Ultra-DMA mode 0 wd0(pciide0:0:0): using PIO mode 4, Ultra-DMA mode 0 wd0g: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 43124288 of 43124288-43124319 (wd0 bn 111550352; cn 110665 tn 0 sn 32), retrying wd0: soft error (corrected) wd0f: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 26952704 of 26952704-26952735 (wd0 bn 49240592; cn 48849 tn 12 sn 44), retrying wd0f: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 26952704 of 26952704-26952735 (wd0 bn 49240592; cn 48849 tn 12 sn 44), retrying wd0f: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 26952704 of 26952704-26952735 (wd0 bn 49240592; cn 48849 tn 12 sn 44), retrying wd0: transfer error, downgrading to PIO mode 4 wd0(pciide0:0:0): using PIO mode 4 wd0f: aborted command, interface CRC error reading fsbn 26952704 of 26952704-26952735 (wd0 bn 49240592; cn 48849 tn 12 sn 44), retrying wd0: soft error (corrected) bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout bm0: device timeout syncing disks... done rebooting [ using 437516 bytes of bsd ELF symbol table ] console out [ATY,Rage128y]console in [keyboard] USB and ADB found, using ADB : memaddr 8400 size 400, : consaddr 8400, : ioaddr 8092, size 2: memtag 8000, iotag 8000: width 640 linebytes 640 height 480 depth 8 Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993 The Regents of the Universi
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On 4/14/10 5:11 AM, Zachary Uram wrote: As a long time Linux user I will soon try out OpenBSD, I have been reading the list emails and contacted 1 OpenBSD top person who was very rude. There is some of the "RTFM" or "get lost" attitude in Linux, but if a questioner seems sincere there is usually a certain level of friendliness in Linux community towards them. Just what I have briefly observed the OpenBSD community is more abrupt and less interested in helping newbies, they prefer one find the answer solely on their own if possible. I must say I detect a certain attitude that smacks of superiority and even condescension at times. Is this a fair assessment of 6the OpenBSD culture? Zach <>< http://www.fidei.org><> It has been been my experience that if you are willing to read the relevant documentation and honestly try to fix your problem on your own but simply cannot, the OpenBSD community will be *extremely* responsive and help you. However, if you ask something that can be resolved by a simple search on google/the mailing list archives, then you obviously are not willing to make an effort, and you will get a response like you did. The amount of effort you put in before asking your question here is greatly amplified in the response of the community, but unfortunately for lazy people, 0 * 100 is still 0.
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Sean Kamath wrote: > On Apr 14, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Ted Roby wrote: > >> You blew off on this message board assuming I hadn't even >> googled, or found our friend Voytek Plawny. >> > > So? Inquiring minds want to know! *Is* he the guy at EA? And more > importantly, is he still a dick? > > Sean > > He may be the Plawny of the New York State Senate. Google results are inconclusive. Personal communique has been ignored.
Re: 4.6 (i386) 008_kerberos.patch : undefined reference to `xfspioctl'
> >>It looks like you are still trying to compile 4.5 kerberos sources while > >>running a 4.6 userland. > > Nice try, but I'm not that stupid ! ;-) > > Following the install and before doing ANY patches, I did... > > cd /usr/src > rm -rf > and then unzipped src/sys from 4.6 into there. Good. However the fresh compilation of libkrb5 should not bring an `xfspioctl' symbol into play. Did you select comp*.tgz when upgrading from 4.5 to 4.6? Do you have old header files lingering in /usr/include? Miod
Re: 4.6 (i386) 008_kerberos.patch : undefined reference to `xfspioctl'
head /usr/src/lib/libkrb5/afssys_openbsd.c : /*$OpenBSD: afssys_openbsd.c,v 1.2 2009/06/03 14:45:47 jj Exp $*/ /*$KTH: afssys.c,v 1.57 1998/05/09 17:19:03 joda Exp $*/
Re: licensing
On Apr 14, 2010, at 1:16 PM, Ted Roby wrote: You blew off on this message board assuming I hadn't even googled, or found our friend Voytek Plawny. So? Inquiring minds want to know! *Is* he the guy at EA? And more importantly, is he still a dick? Sean
Re: 4.6 (i386) 008_kerberos.patch : undefined reference to `xfspioctl'
>>It looks like you are still trying to compile 4.5 kerberos sources while >>running a 4.6 userland. Nice try, but I'm not that stupid ! ;-) Following the install and before doing ANY patches, I did... cd /usr/src rm -rf and then unzipped src/sys from 4.6 into there.
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:55 PM, Chris wrote: > > You're kidding us, right? You can't bother to google something so > basic, you complain when someone points you in the right direction, > make a quick detour for a spelling flame, then act like it'd be way > more work to email a couple of guys randomly (especially for such an > uncommon name from Manitoba) than it would be to re-write something > from scratch... > > And I bet no one has *ever* re-licensed their hobby project so it can > breath new life. No need to ask when you can peer into the future. > > Sean is much more patient than I; after the second round of bullshit > you dumped here, I'd have told you to eat a dick. > > Chris > > This is your second round of bullshit. I had googled all of this before my first post. In fact, I have been in contact with the current maintainers of the project. They have explicit permission, but that doesn't give me explicit permission. You blew off on this message board assuming I hadn't even googled, or found our friend Voytek Plawny. Why? I guess it made you feel like you were contributing something. Find yourself another target for self-aggrandization. You're still just another monkey on a mailing list.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 01:10:47PM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: > > > Around 3 months after starting it, the author deleted all the records > > > except the FreeBSD ones. > > > > That's really bizarre behavior. I was not aware of that part. If the > > data isn't actually collected or used sensibly, then there is of > > course no reason to try submitting data. > > No, keep submitting data, just be sure to set your Country as Panama. > > In summary -- the entire effort is a complete load of crap. The author > does it only to serve his own interests; ie. to back the lies he spreads. > > Otherwise, why would anyone else go through that effort? I'm not sure I'm remembering correctly, but I recall the person behind that being motivated to show adaptec how many awesome freebsd users there were so they'd continue providing a blob, which adaptec had dropped as not worth their time. If I do have it right, it was lame from the very start. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD User Group | MetaBUG dwchand...@stilyagin.com | http://phxbug.org/ | http://metabug.org/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | Daemons in the Desert | Global BUG Federation
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Sean Kamath wrote: > On Apr 14, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Ted Roby wrote: > >> Please tell me what I should do with his permission? >> >> At best, he can let me host my own mud with his code. >> At worst, he must rewrite his entire license in all the associated >> files. >> > > Now *that* is an interesting question. As the original author, they > should be able to rerelease the original code with a different license > or with none at all. And they don't even need to do the work! They > could provide someone, perhaps yourself, with a release to make the > code free. Otherwise, how would companies that once licensed their > code release it under a BSD License (which has happened). > > The "original" author is actually: Diku Mud copyright (C) 1990, 1991 by Sebastian Hammer, Michael Seifert, Hans Henrik Sterfeldt, Tom Madsen, and Katja Nyboe. Their license agreement is in the file 'license.doc'. And their license requirements would still fit in the Ports tree: #begin quote In order to use Merc you must follow the Diku license and our license. The exact terms of the Diku license are in the file 'license.doc'. A summary of these terms is: -- No resale or operation for profit. -- Original author's names must appear in login sequence. -- The 'credits' command must report original authors. -- You must notify the Diku creators that you are operating a Diku mud. Our license terms are: -- Copyrights must remain in original source. -- 'Help merc' must report our help text, as shipped. #end quote However, the author who wrote "snippets" for new features decided to expressly limit his license even further as such: /* NOT TO BE USED OR REPLICATED WITHOUT EXPLICIT PERMISSION OF AUTHOR */ /* umpla...@cc.umanitoba.ca */ Sure... maybe he's had a change of heart in 10 years...
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Ted Roby wrote: > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Sean Kamath wrote: > >> On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Ted Roby wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Chris Dukes >>> wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:21:53AM -0600, Ted Roby wrote: > /* umpla...@cc.umanitoba.ca > */ http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plawny+umanitoba >> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=voytek+plawny >> >> Yeah, you have to scroll down a little bit can't help you there > > > You're going to propagate the absurdity with your own google search? > You assume Voytek Plawny is/was umplawny of cc.umanitoba.ca. > > Go entertain yourself with google searches of "Theo" and "Software", > or other commonalities on the 'net. > > My posting had nothing to do with locating the person(s) mentioned above. > That's the greatest absurdity of all shared by you and Orchid man, Chris > Dukes. > He has a cat to get rid of, if you need one > > The original issue remains that putting such license wording in your > work means that it can never evolve into public domain. You're kidding us, right? You can't bother to google something so basic, you complain when someone points you in the right direction, make a quick detour for a spelling flame, then act like it'd be way more work to email a couple of guys randomly (especially for such an uncommon name from Manitoba) than it would be to re-write something from scratch... And I bet no one has *ever* re-licensed their hobby project so it can breath new life. No need to ask when you can peer into the future. Sean is much more patient than I; after the second round of bullshit you dumped here, I'd have told you to eat a dick. Chris
Re: 4.6 (i386) 008_kerberos.patch : undefined reference to `xfspioctl'
> Hello List, > > So there I was, minding my own business happily patching an > upgraded 4.6 system (upgraded from 4.5 via CD boot). > > All going well, until I > get to 008, the kerberos patch : > > cc -o kdc 524.o config.o connect.o > kaserver.o kerberos5.o kerberos4.o log.o main.o misc.o print_version.o > parse_bytes.o -lkrb5 -ldes -lcrypto -lutil > /usr/lib/libkrb5.so.17.0: undefined > reference to `xfspioctl' > collect2: ld returned 1 exit status > *** Error code 1 > Stop in /usr/src/kerberosV/libexec/kdc (line 95 of /usr/share/mk/bsd.prog.mk). > What gives ? It looks like you are still trying to compile 4.5 kerberos sources while running a 4.6 userland. What revision is /usr/src/lib/libkrb5/afssys_openbsd.c on your tree? It should be revision 1.1 with a 4.5 source tree, and 1.2 with a 4.6 source tree. Miod
4.6 (i386) 008_kerberos.patch : undefined reference to `xfspioctl'
Hello List,
So there I was, minding my own business happily patching an
upgraded 4.6 system (upgraded from 4.5 via CD boot).
All going well, until I
get to 008, the kerberos patch :
cc -o kdc 524.o config.o connect.o
kaserver.o kerberos5.o kerberos4.o log.o main.o misc.o print_version.o
parse_bytes.o -lkrb5 -ldes -lcrypto -lutil
/usr/lib/libkrb5.so.17.0: undefined
reference to `xfspioctl'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
*** Error code 1
Stop in /usr/src/kerberosV/libexec/kdc (line 95 of /usr/share/mk/bsd.prog.mk).
What gives ?
OpenBSD 4.6 (GENERIC.MP) #89: Thu Jul 9 21:32:39 MDT 2009
dera...@i386.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC.MP
cpu0: AMD
Athlon(tm) Dual Core Processor 4450B ("AuthenticAMD" 686-class, 512KB L2
cache) 2.32 GHz
cpu0:
FPU,V86,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUS
H,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,CX16
real mem = 937914368 (894MB)
avail mem =
897826816 (856MB)
mainbus0 at root
bios0 at mainbus0: AT/286+ BIOS, date
06/20/08, BIOS32 rev. 0 @ 0xf1e90, SMBIOS rev. 2.4 @ 0xf (27 entries)
bios0: vendor Phoenix Technologies, LTD version "5.14" date 06/20/2008
bios0:
Hewlett-Packard HP Compaq dx2450 Microtower
acpi0 at bios0: rev 2
acpi0:
tables DSDT FACP SLIC SSDT HPET MCFG APIC
acpi0: wakeup devices HUB0(S5)
XVR0(S5) XVR1(S5) XVR2(S5) PS2M(S4) PS2K(S4) USB0(S3) USB2(S3) AZAD(S5)
MMAC(S5)
acpitimer0 at acpi0: 3579545 Hz, 24 bits
acpihpet0 at acpi0: 2500
Hz
acpimadt0 at acpi0 addr 0xfee0: PC-AT compat
cpu0 at mainbus0: apid 0
(boot processor)
cpu0: apic clock running at 200MHz
cpu1 at mainbus0: apid 1
(application processor)
cpu1: AMD Athlon(tm) Dual Core Processor 4450B
("AuthenticAMD" 686-class, 512KB L2 cache) 2.32 GHz
cpu1:
FPU,V86,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUS
H,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,CX16
ioapic0 at mainbus0: apid 4 pa 0xfec0,
version 11, 24 pins
ioapic0: misconfigured as apic 0, remapped to apid 4
acpiprt0 at acpi0: bus 0 (PCI0)
acpiprt1 at acpi0: bus 1 (HUB0)
acpicpu0 at
acpi0: PSS
acpicpu1 at acpi0: PSS
acpitz0 at acpi0: critical temperature 75
degC
acpibtn0 at acpi0: PWRB
bios0: ROM list: 0xc/0xf000 0xd/0x1800
cpu0: PowerNow! K8 2311 MHz: speeds: 2300 2200 2000 1800 1000 MHz
pci0 at
mainbus0 bus 0: configuration mode 1 (bios)
"NVIDIA MCP61 Memory" rev 0xa1 at
pci0 dev 0 function 0 not configured
pcib0 at pci0 dev 1 function 0 "NVIDIA
MCP61 ISA" rev 0xa2
nviic0 at pci0 dev 1 function 1 "NVIDIA MCP61 SMBus" rev
0xa2
iic0 at nviic0
spdmem0 at iic0 addr 0x50: 1GB DDR2 SDRAM non-parity
PC2-6400CL5
iic1 at nviic0
"NVIDIA MCP61 Memory" rev 0xa2 at pci0 dev 1
function 2 not configured
ohci0 at pci0 dev 2 function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61 USB"
rev 0xa3: apic 4 int 11 (irq 11), version 1.0, legacy support
ehci0 at pci0
dev 2 function 1 "NVIDIA MPC61 USB" rev 0xa3: apic 4 int 7 (irq 7)
usb0 at
ehci0: USB revision 2.0
uhub0 at usb0 "NVIDIA EHCI root hub" rev 2.00/1.00
addr 1
ppb0 at pci0 dev 4 function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61" rev 0xa1
pci1 at ppb0 bus
1
azalia0 at pci0 dev 5 function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61 HD Audio" rev 0xa2: apic 4
int 11 (irq 11)
azalia0: codecs: Realtek ALC888
audio0 at azalia0
nfe0 at pci0
dev 7 function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61 LAN" rev 0xa2: apic 4 int 5 (irq 5), address
rgephy0 at nfe0 phy 1: RTL8169S/8110S PHY, rev. 2
pciide0 at pci0 dev 8
function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61 SATA" rev 0xa2: DMA
pciide0: using apic 4 int 11 (irq
11) for native-PCI interrupt
atapiscsi0 at pciide0 channel 1 drive 0
scsibus0
at atapiscsi0: 2 targets
cd0 at scsibus0 targ 0 lun 0: ATAPI 5/cdrom removable
cd0(pciide0:1:0): using PIO mode 4,
Ultra-DMA mode 5
pciide1 at pci0 dev 8 function 1 "NVIDIA MCP61 SATA" rev
0xa2: DMA
pciide1: using apic 4 int 10 (irq 10) for native-PCI interrupt
wd0
at pciide1 channel 0 drive 0:
wd0: 16-sector PIO, LBA48,
152627MB, 312581808 sectors
wd0(pciide1:0:0): using PIO mode 4, Ultra-DMA mode
5
ppb1 at pci0 dev 9 function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61 PCIE" rev 0xa2
pci2 at ppb1 bus
2
ppb2 at pci0 dev 11 function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61 PCIE" rev 0xa2
pci3 at ppb2 bus
3
ppb3 at pci0 dev 12 function 0 "NVIDIA MCP61 PCIE" rev 0xa2
pci4 at ppb3 bus
4
vga1 at pci0 dev 13 function 0 "NVIDIA GeForce 6100 nForce 430" rev 0xa2
wsdisplay0 at vga1 mux 1: console (80x25, vt100 emulation)
wsdisplay0: screen
1-5 added (80x25, vt100 emulation)
pchb0 at pci0 dev 24 function 0 "AMD AMD64
0Fh HyperTransport" rev 0x00
pchb1 at pci0 dev 24 function 1 "AMD AMD64 0Fh
Address Map" rev 0x00
pchb2 at pci0 dev 24 function 2 "AMD AMD64 0Fh DRAM Cfg"
rev 0x00
kate0 at pci0 dev 24 function 3 "AMD AMD64 0Fh Misc Cfg" rev 0x00:
core rev BH-G2
isa0 at pcib0
isadma0 at isa0
pckbc0 at isa0 port 0x60/5
pckbd0
at pckbc0 (kbd slot)
pckbc0: using irq 1 for kbd slot
wskbd0 at pckbd0:
console keyboard, using wsdisplay0
pcppi0 at isa0 port 0x61
midi0 at pcppi0:
spkr0 at pcppi0
npx0 at isa0 port 0xf0/16: reported by CPUID;
using exception 16
usb1 at ohci0: USB revision 1.0
uhub1 at usb1 "NVIDIA OHCI
root hub" rev 1.00/1.00 addr 1
mtrr: Pentium Pro
Re: licensing
On Apr 14, 2010, at 12:02 PM, Ted Roby wrote: Please tell me what I should do with his permission? At best, he can let me host my own mud with his code. At worst, he must rewrite his entire license in all the associated files. Now *that* is an interesting question. As the original author, they should be able to rerelease the original code with a different license or with none at all. And they don't even need to do the work! They could provide someone, perhaps yourself, with a release to make the code free. Otherwise, how would companies that once licensed their code release it under a BSD License (which has happened). Hunting down authors of abandonware can and has been done before. And has also resulted in permission to release the code as open source. So it can very much be a worthwhile endeavor. And sorry for the mispellings before. This time I'm not walking up the stairs to lunchb&. And fixing the to/cc line still sucks on mobile devices. Sean
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Zack et all, The OpenBSD community is neither rude nor anti-newbies - they just take their work personally. I am a newbie and have used this group without any negative responses. The gruff talk people are referring to is based purely on lazy questions. Mehma
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> Theo de Raadt writes: > > > Around 3 months after starting it, the author deleted all the records > > except the FreeBSD ones. > > That's really bizarre behavior. I was not aware of that part. If the > data isn't actually collected or used sensibly, then there is of > course no reason to try submitting data. Well, back then his code would compute stats for systems which have never existed (OpenBSD/amd64 2.0 being one of the funniest examples). Also, for some reason, there was about ten times more OpenBSD/luna88k numbers (of which we are only aware of a handful installations) than all other OpenBSD platforms together. Of course since the code which computes stats from the gathered data is not available, the only sensible thing to do was to mention bsdstats values can't be trusted, and move on. This indeed caused a purge of some of the most blatantly incorrect data. But since there was no communication about this either, there is no way to know whether the data which had been kept is correct or not. Come to think about it, bsdstats.org is basically a web-2.0 flavour of rand(). I am not sure the world needs one. Miod
Clientless VPN
Hello, I was wondering, is there any development happening to bring clientless VPN to OpenBSD? thanks
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> > Around 3 months after starting it, the author deleted all the records > > except the FreeBSD ones. > > That's really bizarre behavior. I was not aware of that part. If the > data isn't actually collected or used sensibly, then there is of > course no reason to try submitting data. No, keep submitting data, just be sure to set your Country as Panama. In summary -- the entire effort is a complete load of crap. The author does it only to serve his own interests; ie. to back the lies he spreads. Otherwise, why would anyone else go through that effort?
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Theo de Raadt writes: > Around 3 months after starting it, the author deleted all the records > except the FreeBSD ones. That's really bizarre behavior. I was not aware of that part. If the data isn't actually collected or used sensibly, then there is of course no reason to try submitting data. - P -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/ "Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic" delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Sean Kamath wrote: > > Which is it: you're ticked off the original lmgtfy reply pointed to a pay > site, or that we tried to point out if you cared *that* much about finding > the original auther, it shouldn't be that hard? > > Sean I reluctantly reply to the entire list, even though you copied me personally... I don't care about finding the original "auther". He left behind licensing which forbids its application in Open Source. Please tell me what I should do with his permission? At best, he can let me host my own mud with his code. At worst, he must rewrite his entire license in all the associated files.
Re: licensing
On Apr 14, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Ted Roby wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Sean Kamath wrote: On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Ted Roby wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Chris Dukes wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:21:53AM -0600, Ted Roby wrote: /* umpla...@cc.umanitoba.ca */ http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plawny+umanitoba http://lmgtfy.com/?q=voytek+plawny Yeah, you have to scroll down a little bit can't help you there You're going to propagate the absurdity with your own google search? You assume Voytek Plawny is/was umplawny of cc.umanitoba.ca. Which is it: you're ticked off the original lmgtfy reply pointed to a pay site, or that we tried to point out if you cared *that* much about finding the original auther, it shouldn't be that hard? Sean
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 08:36:39PM +0200, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: > Ron McDowell writes: > > > rude to the casual users." Maybe that is why OpenBSD is so far down > > the list at http://bsdstats.org/ . > > For whatever reason the bsdstats initiative never gained much > popularity in OpenBSD circles, but it's really easy to start dropping > data into the pool there if you want to. As far as I can tell my > notes from way back (http://www.bsdly.net/~peter/bsdstat/) still apply. > > Oh, is that what happens? And I was so happy for Panama having the world's most Freebsd users by almost a factor of two. Too bad Canada doesn't have any OpenBSD users, though. -- Mike Small sma...@panix.com
Re: OpenBSD culture?
> > rude to the casual users." Maybe that is why OpenBSD is so far down > > the list at http://bsdstats.org/ . > > For whatever reason the bsdstats initiative never gained much > popularity in OpenBSD circles, but it's really easy to start dropping > data into the pool there if you want to. As far as I can tell my > notes from way back (http://www.bsdly.net/~peter/bsdstat/) still apply. The data in it has no quality. Around 3 months after starting it, the author deleted all the records except the FreeBSD ones. That made it more than clear that the author has no quality. He should get a job with the IPCC.
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Sean Kamath wrote: > On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Ted Roby wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Chris Dukes >> wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:21:53AM -0600, Ted Roby wrote: >>> /* umpla...@cc.umanitoba.ca >>> */ >>> >>> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plawny+umanitoba >>> >>> > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=voytek+plawny > > Yeah, you have to scroll down a little bit can't help you there You're going to propagate the absurdity with your own google search? You assume Voytek Plawny is/was umplawny of cc.umanitoba.ca. Go entertain yourself with google searches of "Theo" and "Software", or other commonalities on the 'net. My posting had nothing to do with locating the person(s) mentioned above. That's the greatest absurdity of all shared by you and Orchid man, Chris Dukes. He has a cat to get rid of, if you need one The original issue remains that putting such license wording in your work means that it can never evolve into public domain.
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Ron McDowell writes: > rude to the casual users." Maybe that is why OpenBSD is so far down > the list at http://bsdstats.org/ . For whatever reason the bsdstats initiative never gained much popularity in OpenBSD circles, but it's really easy to start dropping data into the pool there if you want to. As far as I can tell my notes from way back (http://www.bsdly.net/~peter/bsdstat/) still apply. - P -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.bsdly.net/ http://www.nuug.no/ "Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic" delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Re: licensing
On Apr 14, 2010, at 10:52 AM, Ted Roby wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Chris Dukes wrote: On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:21:53AM -0600, Ted Roby wrote: /* umpla...@cc.umanitoba.ca */ http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plawny+umanitoba I think you'll find a good idea of who to write care of which company. -- Chris Dukes Are you serious? Nice usage of the previously mentioned lmgtfy. You think it's valid information to supply a link that requires I join their database before I have access to the information I am looking for? http://lmgtfy.com/?q=voytek+plawny Yeah, you have to scroll down a little bit b can't help you thereb&
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Matthias Kilian wrote: > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:38:56PM -0500, Ron McDowell wrote: >> Yup, nowhere in that goals page does it say anything about "don't be >> rude to the casual users." Maybe that is why OpenBSD is so far down the >> list at http://bsdstats.org/ . > > What detail in the original reply Theo sent to the OP (and quoted > it later on this list) was rude? I think that implication was aimed at the OP who claimed Theo was rude. Doesn't make it so, but the OP apparently took it that way.
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Re: OpenBSD culture?
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 12:38:56PM -0500, Ron McDowell wrote: > Yup, nowhere in that goals page does it say anything about "don't be > rude to the casual users." Maybe that is why OpenBSD is so far down the > list at http://bsdstats.org/ . What detail in the original reply Theo sent to the OP (and quoted it later on this list) was rude?
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:46 AM, Chris Dukes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:21:53AM -0600, Ted Roby wrote: > > /* umpla...@cc.umanitoba.ca > */ > > http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plawny+umanitoba > > I think you'll find a good idea of who to write care of which company. > -- > Chris Dukes > Are you serious? Nice usage of the previously mentioned lmgtfy. You think it's valid information to supply a link that requires I join their database before I have access to the information I am looking for?
Re: OpenBSD culture?
On 14 April 2010 14:38, Ron McDowell wrote: > Yup, nowhere in that goals page does it say anything about "don't be rude to > the casual users." Maybe that is why OpenBSD is so far down the list at > http://bsdstats.org/ . > Oh yes, very accurate information, that only shows how many of us installed an agent program to feed bsdstats. Honestly, do you really think that kind of information is of any use ? I'm not saying bsdstats is a bad idea.
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 09:21:53AM -0600, Ted Roby wrote: > /* umpla...@cc.umanitoba.ca */ http://lmgtfy.com/?q=plawny+umanitoba I think you'll find a good idea of who to write care of which company. -- Chris Dukes
Re: OpenBSD culture?
Yup, nowhere in that goals page does it say anything about "don't be rude to the casual users." Maybe that is why OpenBSD is so far down the list at http://bsdstats.org/ . -- Ron McDowell San Antonio TX Jordi Espasa Clofent wrote: http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html
Re: OpenBSD culture?
http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html -- I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.
Re: licensing
On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Ted Roby wrote: > Time for me to write OpenMUD? I've had fond memories of CircleMud, and I believe the maintainer is still around. -- http://www.glumbert.com/media/shift http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk "This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity." -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. "Securing an environment of Windows platforms from abuse - external or internal - is akin to trying to install sprinklers in a fireworks factory where smoking on the job is permitted." -- Gene Spafford learn french: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30v_g83VHK4
