Re: Real men don't attack straw men
So have you sent these types of unrecommendations to other OS' mailing lists or just OpenBSD's? I generally don't raise the issue, and I did not raise it this time. I did not start this discussion. I posted on this list because people were making inaccurate statements about my views. You lied on a recorded show. Richard, you are a Hypocrite.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Dec 14, 2007 1:49 PM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...I don't criticize general facilities merely because someone could use them to do things with non-free software. Except in the case of the OpenBSD ports system. This last week, Richard has only criticized OpenBSD. Why is that? Why is he is a hypocrite and a liar? Noone knows, except Richard.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
They seem to be pretty new, what did you recommend before these came onto the scene ? None of these seemed to exist 8 years ago. Nothing! For many years there was no system distribution I could recommend to the public, and that is what I said. It is fascinating how you are recommending Linux distributions which contain two non-free source code files in their X distributions. Richard, you know what I am talking about. You have heard about this issue already. It is those two SGI files. Yet, you are endorsing Linux distributions which contain those files. Shame on, you hypocrite.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:19:06 -0600, Ken Ismert [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: So, I ask you respectfully, Richard: what is your intent in making your original comments, and starting this thread? That would be the deciding factor for me. Self aggrandizement has been RMS's only agenda for a long time. His 15 minutes are up and he has become irrelevant. He refuses to accept this. This crap just makes him more goggleable. When was the last time he wrote some code? 1995? Or is that being generous? He takes money that people donated to the FSF, and he flies all over the world talking bullshit and rhetoric and being a hypocrite. BTW, gcc is crap and I pray everyday someone will come up with a BSD licensed replacement (there was ipf and now there isn't. Wish the same effort would happen for gcc) and I much prefer vi to emacs. We fight all the time against microcode and non-free firmware. Guess what compiler most of that microcode and firmware is compiled with?
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
(Apologies for two replies to the same message.) On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:23:22PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 13:19:06 -0600, Ken Ismert [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTW, gcc is crap and I pray everyday someone will come up with a BSD licensed replacement (there was ipf and now there isn't. Wish the same effort would happen for gcc) and I much prefer vi to emacs. We fight all the time against microcode and non-free firmware. Guess what compiler most of that microcode and firmware is compiled with? So you're blaming the compiler (or its authors, etc.) for the uses to which it's put? Or are you saying that the authors of GCC should only allow it to be used for good and not evil? So you're blaming the ports scaffold (or its authors, etc.) for the uses to which it's put? Or are you saying that the ports scaffold should only allow it to be used for good and not evil?
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
Yes, I grant you the right to use my software in any application you may write and make money with, but I *DO NOT* grant you the right to modify my license in any ways. See bellow if I would publish this: If you use a BSD licence, you are allowing your code to be included in a proprietary application under a proprietary licence, and there is no requirement for your parts of the source to be distributed under the BSD licence by the proprietary developers. When a vendor distributes parts of our source code -- as source code, the license is extremely clear. Let me quote it, and mark it up a bit: * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: ^^^ * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. Is that too hard to read? If you use a BSD licence, you are allowing your code to be included in a free application under the GNU General Public Licence, and there is no requirement for your parts of the source to be distributed under the BSD licence by the GPL-software developers. So some people want to include our source, and redistribute it. The same applies: * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: ^^^ * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. Again, is that too hard to read? Now, I must admit that the second part doesn't seem quite right to me, and I believe that the GPL-software developers should release any changes to your sections of the code under your licence. Not should. MUST. Read the license text again. Even if it was not stated in the licence term, it is a Copyright right which the author retains unless he surrenders it. However, why is it perfectly okay for proprietary software developers to behave in this way and not for free software developers? I assume you are talking about proprietary software developers releasing our code as BINARY, instead of as SOURCE code. Let me show you the next term of the license: * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright ^^ *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the *documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. However, proprietary software developers who release our code AS SOURCE CODE still must do this: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. --- same as everyone else, whether they be the FSF or whoever. Yes, there have been cases of the FSF themselves getting very close to toeing this line in the past. Like in Bison. The BSD licence doesn't allow the changing of the licence, None of the licenses we are talking about allow changing the license. but it doesn't prevent extra restrictions being added to it. That's bullshit. Read it again. The BSD license gives the recipient some abilities, but retains others. One of those is that the source code must retain the license. Other restrictions... why do we care? Our code is still alive. HP and Cisco has included OpenSSH -- with changes they did not give back we are sure -- in all their router products, and none of you would argue that the world is not a richer place because of that. As a result of our giving nature, the internet at large is much more secure now. The extra restrictions may be a proprietary EULA, or they may be the GPL's requirement for source distribution. There's no difference, from the point of view of the BSD licence; it's all just additional restrictions. Our license is extremely clear as to what is permitted and what is not. Richard is amongst those who wants to muddle the situation. When things are clear, Richard can't play with words and practice his hypocrisy.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men (Theo)
I see you are being your usual friendly self ;-}. Yes, and you are being the usual slimy hypocritical asshole. I really fail to see, how a response like this serves OpenBSD or any other good purpose at all! It serves our purposes to make it clear to peoepl that Richard's mission to make his approval seem valid... is false and hypocritical. If you don't like that, go find something else to do. If Richard Stallman is a hypocrite his answers and statements will show this by themselves, and nobody needs to be told. By stating it like this you only make yourself look stupid and childish, even if you are right! Richard spoke on a show, and Richard said false and uneducated things, and then Richard came to our list. It always helps if hypocrites show that they are hypocrites, but it also helps to remind people so, over and over. I used to respect you a lot Theo but that respect has been lost because of this ugly behaviour. And I'll shed a tear over that, Rico, whoever you are. Ofcourse you don't care about that, but I really think you are hurting BSD, No. I am not hurting BSD. Richard is hurting BSD, by trying to act as if his hypocritical approval amounts to anything. and not just OpenBSD, by confirming what a lot of people has said so many times - OpenBSD has an unfriendly atmosphere. That is irrelevant. And why would I care? You are a slime who changes his position as he needs. You may have had value ten years ago, but people will see that you don't anymore. Richard Stallman has done one thing right during all of this, and that is to keep ... changing the rules, in any way that lets his project get off the hook, while making others who he does not like look like they are breaking the rules of what it 'takes to be a free project'. That's his goal. That's all he has done for 10 years. He's written no code. He has just pontificated and attacked people who actually write code. He sits on the largest pile of money donated for free software, and he squanders it wastefully. EVERYTHING code related that people thinks comes from the FSF today, comes to us without Richard Stallman actually working on it. Richard is just another random long haired hypocritical mouthpiece, who will be known after his death as the original author of the C compiler which is used by more of the closed-source embedded industry than any other C compiler.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On Dec 14, 2007 1:49 PM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The concept of relicensing does not imply changing or adding code, and the legality of relicensing doesn't depend on changing or adding code. However, I would urge people to relicense only if they make very big changes. If they make lesser changes, it is better to contribute them to the original project, and if they make no changes, relicensing is just silly (in most cases). You admit that relicensing is not changing the code; i.e., the software. The BSD license ALLOWS you to modify the software. It does NOT allow you to modify anything else, including the license(s) applied to that software. That right is never granted by the BSD license. If you believe the GPL to be worth anything, and I believe that you do, then you have to afford the same level of respect to the other licenses that people use. Marti, I agree with you. Richard Stallman does not even how Copyright Law works. He's been hanging out with American lawyers too much.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
* Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: ^^^ * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright *notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. Is that too hard to read? I'm not suggesting that the licence of the BSD code should be violated, but that it's possible for it to become covered by an additional licence - an application, under either a proprietary EULA or the GPL, that includes some code under a BSD licence. The BSD licence does not cease to apply, but the non-BSD developer is not required to make *their changes* to the BSD code available under the BSD licence. So? Who are you? Why do you care? We -- who wrote the code -- don't care. In fact, we are glad that companies can do that. It lets companies like Cisco and HP and IBM and Sun put code like OpenSSH into their products, instead of writing crappy versions by themselves that end up hitting bugtraq every 2nd month, and the resultant damage to the Internet that would ensure. We prefer a high quality world, over all other things. That is our choice. A proprietary developer can modify it and keep the changes to itself. A proprietary developer can take our code, and modify it, and ship/sell product that has high quality parts designed by smart people in it, even if that proprietary developer himself is the weakest cog. That is a better world, than forcing that developer into a position he finds unworkable, and which often results in him choosing to build embedded devices using bad models like WinCE (where his code is of course perhaps using Emacs, and compiled using GCC). A GPL developer can modify it and release the changes under the GPL, though any unmodified code would still, of course, be under the BSD licence. Yes, the code still has to be under the BSD license. Perhaps you are smarter than Richard Stallman, who believes that code can be relicenced if enough substantial changes are made. Now, I must admit that the second part doesn't seem quite right to me, and I believe that the GPL-software developers should release any changes to your sections of the code under your licence. Not should. MUST. Read the license text again. Even if it was not stated in the licence term, it is a Copyright right which the author retains unless he surrenders it. They're not required to make their changes available. They're required to acknowledge your copyright, but your licence does not require proprietary developers to release changes at all and it does not require GPL developers to release changes under your choice of licence. That's right. That is our choice. We're pretty brave, wouldn't you agree? We give, expecting nothing except to be known and recognized for our contribution. But our bravery killed telnet and rlogin. What has Richard Stallman's bravery killed? Not much. Proprietary code without source is very much live, and making a killing in the business market still. His infleunce in the Linux world is non-existance, since it is a bunch of companies, making a killing adding proprietary components to only mostly free code. What has his radicalism gained? People ignore him. He's on some little minor operating system's mailing list picking a fight, because all the other projects totally ignore him, because they are all run like solid American businesses. And the GPLv3? He was the puppet that sold it, but the text was mostly written by a bunch of lawyers who will take care of it after Richard dies. And they've made sure that there are holes in the less-free GPLv3, and they will make a lot of money off those who voilate the interpretation they get out of judges, once Richard dies. Ethics? Who cares. Once Richard dies, it will be a feeding frenzy. His hypocrisy just makes it even more of a sure thing. The BSD licence doesn't allow the changing of the licence, None of the licenses we are talking about allow changing the license. but it doesn't prevent extra restrictions being added to it. That's bullshit. Read it again. The BSD license gives the recipient some abilities, but retains others. One of those is that the source code must retain the license. Other restrictions... why do we care? Our code is still alive. HP and Cisco has included OpenSSH -- with changes they did not give back we are sure -- in all their router products, and none of you would argue that the world is not a richer place because of that. As a result of our giving nature, the internet at large is much more secure now. This is my point exactly: why should a GPL developer be forced to give
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
And the GPLv3? He was the puppet that sold it, but the text was mostly written by a bunch of lawyers who will take care of it after Richard dies. And they've made sure that there are holes in the less-free GPLv3, and they will make a lot of money off those who voilate the interpretation they get out of judges, once Richard dies. Ethics? Who cares. Once Richard dies, it will be a feeding frenzy. His hypocrisy just makes it even more of a sure thing. By this I mean the GPLv3 and GPLv2 could mean exactly what they are written to mean, and thus be easily understood once court cases happen (... OK, now nearly everyone is laughing, but try to re-read it seriously). ... but when the leader hypocritically walks around describing new 'rules' that people must follow for 'his approval'... that won't impress a judge later. It will un-impress a judge later. It will show that the author's intent was muddled. It will show that the authors who adopted the license had a muddled viewpoint. It's nice to have a public archive of Richard's spew since we don't have to save each message; it shows a pattern of his own GPL'd software being exempt from the rules he holds everyone to, especially special targets (and apparently we are target of the month). Richard, and many of you, live in the US where case law will decide some of these issues. I don't think that is a good thing, but it is what will happen, at least in the US, if the economy doesn't tank fast enough to make 'the empire' irrelevant. But once Richard dies, what happens then will not be predicated on dead Richard's stupid rules. (Perhaps his leg will get cut off). As well, we know that this GPLv3 thing was mostly designed by Eben and friends, and they hope to outlive Richard, and very richly indeed). What has Richard done recently, except moan and set unreasonable standards for projects he has nothing to do with... on our mailing lists? Regarding the 'plural' FSF and their agenda these days... I think we all know that crackpot Richard is no longer the real leader. He's a senile puppet who gets lots of flights paid for by your misguided donations dollars to ensure he's kept out of touch (except on one airline, I think Delta, who banned him for air-rage a decade ago on his way to a Usenix conference). The real FSF agenda has been dumbed down from what Richard used to believe, and it will dumb down further as he loses control (except for the particularily nasty legal side parcelled out to Eben's SFLC). Meanwhile, Richard cranks up 'his rules' against rather small groups (like OpenBSD) because he lost the OS war with HURD, and the Linux people don't care what he says. Wait, it isn't that they don't care what he says -- they don't give a rats damn. He has absolutely zero credit with them. Richard tried repeatedly to screw Linux as a whole, and it's just that noone has really let the press know yet in those terms. Richard is irrelevant there. Richard does not understand that the entire free source world is a meritocracy of source code creation and modification. He has done nothing in 10-15 years, except wave his long hair and moan in front of crowds, and lay down ground rules for projects he has no actual involvement in. I commited a 2500 line diff today becuase it was fun. It will let two other developers (who I raced to write this..) continue their work on a priv-sep snmp daemon (translation: no holes, hopefully, ever). Yeah, not everything is glory, but it was code that I produced, and it was fun, and it will matter to some, and it is what actually matters 'as credit' in our communities. I did not actually do much except put in the time and the effort to do what others could have done. Meanwhile, Richard writes no code, thus he does not matter, and walks around talking about what we do or don't do, and with all his spare time he doesn't even do the RESEARCH TO MAKE SURE THAT HE IS NO TALKING BULLSHIT. And so he talks BULLSHIT, and gets called a hypocrite. But he's in too deep, isn't he. His credit has degraded to zero, and his foaming on relatively small mailing lists makes it go even faster. His hypocrisy is in part because he has no control anymore; his continual protests on our lists are because he has no control on lists where it might matter. His continual adjustment of his rules is because he can find no edge anymore. He is irrelevant, and he can't cope with that. Richard is not even anymore an alternative viewpoint that should be considered, for the simple reason that any road towards his absolutist views ensures that his hypocrisy will be exposed. It's like the TV advertisement of the monk who protects turtles and bugs, but then kills germs when he sneezes into kleenex -- what a shock; but that is a funny advertisement. Richard is not a funny advertisement. He's a pathetic joke. He should spot the falicy, and back down. No leader with such a pile of FSF donation money should come onto our list and picks a fight where
Re: Play Nice - Real men don't attack straw men (Theo)
Theo de Raadt wrote: EVERYTHING code related that people thinks comes from the FSF today, comes to us without Richard Stallman actually working on it. Richard is just another random long haired hypocritical mouthpiece, who will be known after his death as the original author of the C compiler which is used by more of the closed-source embedded industry than any other C compiler. Now now. Order. Richard is the face that launched a thousand Gnus. You as well as anyone here know what he did for the concept of giving away source code. He inspired a whole generation of free software writers. I was not inspired by him, but by Chris Torek, Keith Bostic, and Mike Karels, who chose to not play politics. Look at the Gnu tree sometime, it's the core of everything we do, all of us. I don't know what a GNU tree is. I only look at operating system code. When I look at operating system code, there's Linux. That's what I suppose you meant, but you described it wrong. You two please play nice and don't demand that your fans line up on one side or another. It's not fair to us who depend on both of you so much. Richard seperated us out. Jack, don't go telling me that we may not rail against Richard being a prick.
Re: Play Nice - Real men don't attack straw men (Theo)
Theo de Raadt wrote: Richard seperated us out. Jack, don't go telling me that we may not rail against Richard being a prick. Well, no, you may. The problem is when two people sling poop on each other, sooner or later it ends, and then all you've got is two guys standing there looking sheepish, all covered with poop. How is this my fault? Richard slagged our efforts. In the public space. Richard is a hyprcrite, since he does exactly the same thing. Richard walked onto this mailin list, telling lies. So, Jack, why are you acting as if this is my fault? Why are you picking on me? Did I invite Richard to set double standards, dismiss our efforts, apply his standards to us, and walk into a fight on a mailing lists where he does not belong, and flaunt his hypocrisy? No, I did not invite Richard to do these things -- he did it all by himself. Why don't you tell your buddy Richard to get lost instead?
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
How does using non-free software, by your definition anything none GPL'ed I gather, bring actual physical harm to anyone anywhere? Physical harm is not the only kind of harm. Losing your freedom is harm too. Social practices that lead people into a life without freedom are harmful. You mean social practices like standing up on an airplane and refusing to sit down when commanded by a flight attendant, and the plane having to taxi back from the runway to the boarding gate, and then everyone on the plane being subjected to your behaviour? I think I understand you now.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
What I said was that I don't recommend OpenBSD because the ports system suggests non-free programs. On the bsd talk show you did not withhold your recommendation because the ports system suggests non-free programs. No way, that's not what you said on that show. What actually happened is that you withheld your recommendation because it CONTAINS non-free programs; that is what your words were. It turns out that the above assessment was based on a complete lack of research. It was uneducated, and you should have apologized for the error. You were really clear in your interview. And wrong. Later on, on this mailing list, you have changed your statements to say that your recommend against OpenBSD because it now... RECOMMENDS non-free software. We've made it quite clear that Emacs and gcc recommend the use of non-free software, by directly containing code to support those systems. The ports tree does not contain code to support non-free components. It simply provides URLs to a few select things which people might wish to use. Itself, it contains no non-free code and makes no recommendations. But gcc and emacs directly contain code which RECOMMENDS compilation on non-free systems, by actually compiling and running there. First you lied. Then you introduced new position that you cannot meet yourself. That is hypocritical of you. You are a hypocritical liar, Richard. Your lies taint the efforts of the entire FSF and GNU communities. Shame on you all for letting Richard mislead you so.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
The Adobe flash plug-in is non-free software, and people should not install it, or suggest installing it, or even tell people it exists. so much for free speech. Free speech means you are free to tell people about the Adobe flash plug-in, and also free to decide not to tell them. Free speech also means our free ports tree can contain Makefiles which point at non-free software. I exercise my freedom of speech by not telling people about the Adobe flash plug-in. I think you should, too. But I will not try to force you to do that, because I respect your freedom of speech. You go onto a talk show and exercise your freedom of speech and your powerful position as some supposed visionary ... to criticise our exercising of our free speech. At the same time, the specific criticism you have of us is not supposed to stick to your own behaviour, in gcc end emacs. You are a hypocrite, and any supposed visionary status you had in the past is now nothing but mud. None of the operating system distributions will give your crack pot ideas any more credit in the future.
Re: Is any work being done on rtl8187?
Is any work being done on rtl8187 wireless device? Is it going to be included into 4.3 or 4.4? No. I have two usb wi-fi dongles: one based on zd1211 (it isn't picked up by zyd driver, but works under linux) and another based on rtl8187. I need to give away one of them, so I would like to know, which one has more chances to work with OpenBSD any time soon... You should perhaps go into the code then, and try to make zd1212 at least match, and try to get it to work. We supply code so that people can at least try, instead of just providing incomplete information. For example, should I now be saying But of course the WhatYouHave 188 dongle using a zd1211 will work in 4.3?
Re: OpenBSD on ia64
David Gwynne AKA loki received some itanic h/w after he indicated he wanted to work on an itanic port. I'm sure he'll post something here, eventually. No, that hardware is still in England.
Re: ssh client in bsd.rd
The RAM-disk kernel (bsd.rd) seems to be missing an SSH client. Presumably that's been left out on purpose. Is there any reason beside size that it is not included? It is for installation, it is not not for general purpose use.
Re: kernel/5690: system crash when running rtorrent
Years ago we told Sebastian Rother that we think he's a pest, and we'll ignore everything he says. Go away, Sebastian. The minute you report a bug, everyone else will suffer for it. I don't give care. Get lost, little boy. I didn't made this bug report. I just told you weeks ago that people will hit thit bug. And you may please explain me the sense of submitting bug-reports if you've such a attitude? Well as I told you: People will hit thit bug. But please forward at least the reports I sended you weeks ago to any developer who might care. They might could be helpfull. Thanks Theo :) Kind regards, Sebastian p.s. Have a nice day, still :)
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
Thanks. Since you didn't answer soon, and since I did get other info about non-free software needed for OpenSolaris, I already asked for a correction in the interview. I made it general so that I won't have to go into these specifics. But I would like to know more about the need for Devpro: You asked for a correction to an statement interview -- you should not even have made that statment to begin. You did not do research into the OpenSolaris situation, and you spread lies instead of spreading the truth. Not free development environment that is REQUIRED to compile Solaris. Someone else showed me some text which seems to say that you can also compile it with GCC. From http://opensolaris.org/os/downloads/on/: You will then need to download the compilers specific to your platform . Choose either: * The Sun Studio Compilers (Recommended). NOTE: Sun Studio 11 is required for building Build 45 and higher -or- * The GCC Compiler found in Solaris Express, Community Edition build 22 or later. (Please see the gcc tools page for more information if choosing this option.) However, I don't know precisely what question that is the answer to. Maybe it doesn't apply to ALL the OpenSolaris software. Is there text that says that certain components can compile only with Devpro? Richard, since you are a hypocrite who won't read web pages, let me show you just a few of the Sun non-source bits, pasted below, straight from Sun's page. - OpenSolaris 'recommends' that people use the following binary drivers from Sun. - OpenSolaris is missing the source code for hundreds of manual pages - Not all of the installer is free. You have to use non-free bits to even install the software. - Sun's X server and libraries are not available in source - Sun's graphic cards are undocumented and without source Richard, you are too stupid to go and learn FACTS before you open your big fat lying mouth. If you can't or won't do the research, why open your mouth? Why? Why? You'll go out of the way to build arbitrary Richard-rules to attack various projects like OpenBSD and Subversion, but then you make yourself look like a FOOL by not researching Sun's situation. You really make yourself look really really stupid. Who will you attack with lies next week? -- ctsmc driver (B)System Management controller driver smbus_ara driver (B)Daktari platform support SunFire V240 platmod driver (B) SunFire platform support SunFire V250 platmod driver (B) SunFire platform support SunFire V440 platmod driver (B) SunFire platform support UltraEnterprise platmod driver (B) UltraEnterprise platform support amsrc1 driver (B) Audio Mixer Sample Rater Conversion Routine #1 bmc driver Baseboard management controller SunFire V240 ntwdt driver (B) Netra-based application watchdog timer driver adpu320 driver (B) Adaptec Ultra320 SCSI HBA driver audioens driver Ensonig 1371/1373 and Creative Labs 5880 driver support audiovia823x driver (B) Drives VY823x chipsets for VIA Corporation bnx driver (B) Broadcom NetXtreme II Gigabit Ethernet driver daplt driver (B)Tavor uDAPL service driver elxl driver (B) 3COM Ethernet device driver forthdebug driver (B) OBP-level debugging macros glm driver (B) SCSI HBA driver for Symbios 53c8xx SCSI Processor HBA grppm driverPlatform Power Management driver for Sun-Blade-100 ifp driver ISP 2100 Family Fibre Channel HBA driver iprb driver (B) Intel Pro1000/B Fast Ethernet driver isp driver ISP SCSI HBA driver ixgb driver (B) 10G Ethernet driver llc2 driver (B) NCR Logical Link Control device driver lsimega driver (B) LSI Logic MegaRAID SCSI 320-2x driver marvell88sx driver (B) Marvell 88SX SATA controller driver m1535ppm driver (B) Acer ALI1535D and 1535D+ PCI PMU device driver mi2cv driver (B)Nexus driver for Mentor Graphics MI2CV I2C controller mpt driver (B) SCSI HBA driver that supports the LSI 53C1030 SCSI chip n2cp driver (B) Niagara crypto driver ncp driver (B) Niagara crypto driver ncrs driver (B) SCSI HBA driver nge driver (B) Nvidia ck8-04 NIC driver pcelx driver (B)3COM Etherlink III PCMCIA Ethernet Adapter pcn driver AMD PCnet Ethernet controller device driver pcser driver (B)PCMCIA
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
Here is the real issue, Richard. You go off and endorse OpenSolaris without knowing the facts. You get confronted with them and you change history. Sound familiar? What sounds familiar is the nasty spin you place on a minor confusion. We are not spinning any facts. Richard, three times now you have have failed to do research -- thus damaged the reputation of projects that write free software, and three times you have had your messages annotated. Because you were wrong. Are you really so retardedly careless? But you have added a new false accusation of changing history. No. We've accused you of being a either tremendously careless and reckless with other people's reputations. But there is an alternative that you are purposefuly spreading these things -- ie. lying. Meanwhile the FSF is doing exactly the same things in distributing Emacs and GCC with commercial support in their distributions. That is hypcrotical. You have been called on this issue, but you have told people that it would be too much work to delete that stuff from gcc and emacs. Yeah, right. That means you a hypocrite. I asked for my note of clarification to be labeled explicitly as such, so that it would be clear what was the original answer and what was the clarification. You should not have made the same type of mistake three times. If you can't make statements without errors you should say nothing. Perhaps you should judge your own statements by the standards that you seek to apply to mine. I have said nothing which is hypocritical. OpenBSD does nothing wrong, unless emacs and gcc are doing something wrong. At the same time, OpenBSD developers are not going into the media and pointing out the falicy of your statements. Or, we are not doing so yet. Do you want a war in the press? If you want to run your mouth about projects try spending a few minutes reading information about them and draw your own conclusions. I investigated the BSD systems, and I got the accurate information that the ports system can install non-free software. emacs and gcc can be installed on non-free software, because of tens of thousands of lines of specific code written to suppor those commercial systems. Hypocrite. Then I stated that accurate information using words that were subject to misunderstanding. That's bullshit, Richard. In your interview you said that OpenBSD *CONTAINED* non-free software. Your words were lies. Later on the mailing lists you have attempted to change history by saying that your words were being misunderstood. That's not true. You said OpenBSD *CONTAINS* non-free software. There is no way to misunderstand that. You witnessed the words I said in the interview. However, you make claims about what I knew, what I thought, and what I intended which are based on pure speculation. No wonder yourclaims are mistaken. I do make claims about what you knew: You knew nothing because you did not research before you spoke, and you ended up telling a lie. Same as when you branded OpenSolaris free: You knew nothing because you did not research before you spoke, and you ended up telling a lie. Same as when you attacked the Subversion developers: You knew nothing because you did not research before you spoke, and you ended up telling a lie. Shouldn't you investigate the facts before you make such claims? It's hilarious to see you try to accuse me of your greatest weakness. You are the one who three times now has said the wrong thing about freedom, because you don't investitate. I predict that your next posting will complain about how you don't use the web. Poo hoo, poor Richard always has an answer that will get him out of trouble.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
Richard, you are too stupid to go and learn FACTS before you open your big fat lying mouth. I am sure the readers can judge for themselves whether I am stupid. They will certainly see I am not perfect. I had learned the facts about OpenSolaris, but that was months before. By the time I did that interview my memory was incorrect. Twice you called free things non-free, and once you called a non-free things free. Your memory was incorrect? I bet you make such a mistake again in a few weeks. If you can't be accurate, perhaps you should not do interviews. In addition, I thought that OpenSolaris was just a kernel, but it looks like the question had in mind a whole system. This miscommunication has the effect of making my statement appear to be an endorsement of a system. Huh? OpenSolaris is just a kernel, and this helps you how? The kernel is not free -- it never was. It has a couple of handful of required drivers which are not included. It is not free, in any sense. Yet you failed to do any research about this before you went into the press. Partly I had forgotten and partly I fell into a miscommunication. I am sure the readers can judge for themselves how grave that is. Someone like you is not allowed to spread mistruths like this in the media. Lying is another matter. That is a grave accusation which you and others have made with absolutely no basis. Shouldn't you make sure of the facts before you accuse? Since you did it three times so rapidly, I am calling you a liar. And since you refuse to undo your commercial support in Emacs and GCC, I am going to call you a hypocrite.
Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men
Rui Miguel Silva is continually making you guys remove [EMAIL PROTECTED] from the cc's of your messages. If you are going to flame rms, it is best to keep him cc'd. From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:48 PM To: Openbsd Misc (E-mail) Subject: Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:05:37PM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: Wow... it is incredibly telling that you chose a game, a pretty obscure one at that as far as I can tell, to base your argument on. The world will fall because OpenBSD recommends that people install a game... a game that is free to copy and use for non- commercial use (I looked it up), and you had to go through almost the ENTIRE package collection all the way to the Zs before you could find such a pitiful example. Because they are such pitiful cases, they could be easily removed and remove Stallman's objections to list OpenBSD at the recommended Free Software operating systems, right? More promotion of OpenBSD would be good, right? CASE... not cases, you have come up with one CASE. One example, IF I chose to believe in your modification of the original statement that sparked this thread (which I don't) and believe that Mr. Stallman was speaking of non-free software in packages your side of the argument gets smaller and smaller. See what happens when you have to prove your argument? It all boils down to you having an issue with ONE package. A game at that. Not production software, or a web browser, or an email package, a game. A single game that, from the tone of your argument must be destroying all that free software stands for. Guess what... I read the license text for that game and it sounds exactly like what your precious GPL would say if it was boiled down to it's most basic components. You can have the source code... You can modify the source code... You just can't use the source code for your commercial application. Sound familiar? That is almost exactly what I was told by a GPL Zealot that the GPL lic was all about when I was first introduced to Linux so many years ago. So your example of why OpenBSD isn't free is a farce. It wouldn't bother me if the OpenBSD devs decided to axe that package. If I wanted to use it I could install it from ports just fine, I usually do anyway, but the argument that they should do so to fit yours or Mr Stallman's ideals of what free software is about are wrong on so many levels. It comes down to trying to force others to live by your ideals. It's just like the christian croud thinking that it's ok to discriminate against the pagans because it would take such a small thing for them (us) to convert to christianity. Never mind that many of us pagans view christianity as a violent death cult, so why would we ever want to. You say that it would be such a small thing for the OpenBSD project to do to live up to your ideals when it comes to free software but quite frankly, I think that many of the OpenBSD crowd think that your ideals are wrong. Freedom is all about freedom of choice, If that means people choose non-free software on OpenBSD at least they are using OpenBSD which is in itself free software. OpenBSD with ALL the non-free software from ports (yes, really ports) would still be a much more free system than any Windows system using as much free apps as a person could find for it. Stopping this childish-tantrum regarding the FSF would also be very much more productive. childish-tantrum? You know, when you resort to attacking the character of the other persons argument rather than argue the facts of your case it means you have pretty much lost the debate and have nothing more to say. This discussion all started because Mr. Stallman very publicly stated that OpenBSD was non-free and distributed non-free software in it's ports tree. He didn't say OpenBSD was non-free, but that it distributed non-free Software. Looking at ftp://ftp.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/4.2/packages/i386/zangband-2 ... seems to me pretty a pretty clear case. Ok... I get it... You are saying that zangband is such an important piece of software that it alone is the cause of the downfall of free software. Because OpenBSD distributes zangband nobody has any reason to install a free OS or switch from MS Office to free office production software. No... wait... I don't get it. zangband is a GAME. It could fall off the face of the earth and nobody would blink. The few people who play it would move on to the next game. I can't believe that this thread has gone on this long and this one GAME is what it is all about. Oh wait it really isn't, but when we boil the argument down, it does become the final stand for a free software zealot who didn't realize that he didn't have a real position in the first case s
Re: PC Engines alix2c3 bootloader issue
I'm missing the bootloader interaction with OpenBSD 4.2 installed on a compact flash card in this alix2c3. With the most recent bios from PC Engines 0.99. If I strike any keys ( like boot -s) during the time when the boot prompt should appear the system will not boot. If I wait it boots fine. That would be a bug in their rom, then. It is not behaving like a real PC should. I suggest you contact them.
Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question
Don't worry. You can ask rms if your behaviour is ethical. He'll set you straight, and tell you to stop working for those companies and instead suckle off your McArthur Idiot grant. On Jan 4, 2008 9:48 AM, Ioan Nemes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You confusing the issue! The software market - where you sell your product (i.e., software) is unethical, distorted and manipulated, and not by the ethical software crafters! Why is the software market unethical? Because there are some bad apples? Gee, that makes pretty much every single business sector unethical. Unless you're trying to say that selling software in itself is unethical but that's bullshit. Who are the ethical software crafters? Does simply not charging money for your software make you ethical? Most OSS, for example, can be, and is, used by governments to oppress the people. Does that make working on OSS unethical? --- Lars Hansson
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
This is the same with your recommended system GNU/Darwin: http://www.gnu-darwin.org/index.php?page=ports Who also contains instructions to install the such port system. Thank you for telling me about this problem. I will talk with them about this ASAP. I expect they will probably remove those. And ReactOS is next? I am hoping to spend a few hours in a while auditing the other fringe projects that the Fringe Software Foundation recommends. Richard, you are a lying hypocritical irrelevant man.
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
In addition, I thought that OpenSolaris was just a kernel, but it looks like the question had in mind a whole system. This miscommunication has the effect of making my statement appear to be an endorsement of a system. Huh? OpenSolaris is just a kernel That's what I thought. It _is_ free software, what there is of it. But it isn't a usable solution. That's what I meant at the time. You spend a lot of time thinking the wrong thing, don't you. Someone like you is not allowed to spread mistruths like this in the media. Spread mistruths is a distorted way to describe a couple of misunderstandings. And as far as I know there is no way to forbid anyone to do that. If I knew a way, I would do it. Oh, forgive me. Instead, you don't think wrong. You think misunderstandings, repeatedly, over and over, repetitively. Forgive me for mis-diagnosing the symptoms. Since you did it three times so rapidly, I am calling you a liar. Mistakes are not lies. And these mistakes were misunderstandings anyway. Three misunderstandings, protested each time instead of apologizing is a lie. Ask anyone in law enforcement. Richard, you are a liar. And since you refuse to undo your commercial support in Emacs and GCC, I am going to call you a hypocrite. I'm following the same principles that I apply to others. I've explained both these principles and my actions; the readers can judge all aspects for themselves. Oh boy, another lie. Emacs, gcc, OpenDarwin, and ReactOS. I understand the general rule -- but Richard is except. Lying Hypocrite.
Re: Richard Stallman...
I actually prefer that it does continue. I note that Richard also says that AROS is a free operating system. Oh really? Did he not notice the web page where AROS includes software which emulates an Amiga perfectly, and to do this talks about stealing the ROM from a real Amiga machine? Is that not the largest blob stolen, ever? http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/users/applications/euae.php And did Richard even check their License page, to notice that it has numerous revocation clauses? You are no Academic. You don't belong anywhere near MIT campus. You just plain don't know how to do research, and then you go around spreading mistruths. Richard, you are such a hypocrite. You don't matter any more in this world. We're all tired of explaining to Richard Stallman about how he's wrong. It somehow isn't registering with him, that, or he's not willing to accept his position of being wrong. Either ways, by replying to his emails we are creating more noise than required and giving him more importance than is due. Could we all please stop responding to his emails as well as emails from trollers like Rui Seabra? Lets just ignore them and focus on our war cry of Shut-up and Hack. As a special power, let only Theo respond to Stallman's emails, that way there isn't a lot of commotion and only the heavy weights slug it out. And for heaven's sake, please don't respond to this email on the list, if you feel strongly about it, mail me offlist. Best, ~Mayuresh
Re: Real men don't attack straw men
On 1/5/08, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does ReactOS recommend non-free software? If so. please show me what it says, and the URL. I have a better idea. Why don't you do your own fucking homework. Oh come now. You can't expect a hypocrite to do homework that undermines himself, can you?
Re: pflogd: stack overflow in function if_exists
A few of the interface related ioctl-based interfaces changed between 4.2 and -current. You are mixing a -current kernel with a release userland. Of course some system utilities will break; it happens all the time. If they did not, we'd not be able to make improvements to OpenBSD. What you are running into is outside the range of what we even attempt to support -- don't mix different userland and kernel. Hello. After upgrading kernel to -current I'm getting Abort trap (core duped) with pflogd, and log entry in /var/log/messages pflogd: stack overflow in function if_exists With -stable there's no such problem. Should I chnange anything elese to use pflogd with -current kernel? dmesg: OpenBSD 4.2-current (GENERIC) #1: Sun Jan 6 09:24:07 CET 2008 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC cpu0: AMD Athlon(tm) XP 2000+ (AuthenticAMD 686-class, 256KB L2 cache) 1.68 GHz cpu0: FPU,V86,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,MMX,FXSR,SSE real mem = 536379392 (511MB) avail mem = 510746624 (487MB) mainbus0 at root bios0 at mainbus0: AT/286+ BIOS, date 08/10/04, BIOS32 rev. 0 @ 0xf9e80, SMBIOS rev. 2.3 @ 0xf0120 (37 entries) bios0: vendor Award Software International, Inc. version F4 date 08/10/2004 bios0: Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. GA-7VAX apm0 at bios0: Power Management spec V1.2 (slowidle) apm0: AC on, battery charge unknown acpi at bios0 function 0x0 not configured pcibios0 at bios0: rev 2.1 @ 0xf/0xc9c4 pcibios0: PCI IRQ Routing Table rev 1.0 @ 0xfc910/176 (9 entries) pcibios0: PCI Exclusive IRQs: 5 10 11 12 pcibios0: PCI Interrupt Router at 000:17:0 (VIA VT82C596A ISA rev 0x00) pcibios0: PCI bus #1 is the last bus bios0: ROM list: 0xc/0xd000 0xd/0x8000! cpu0 at mainbus0 pci0 at mainbus0 bus 0: configuration mode 1 (no bios) pchb0 at pci0 dev 0 function 0 VIA VT8377 PCI rev 0x00 agp0 at pchb0: v3, aperture at 0xd000, size 0x1000 ppb0 at pci0 dev 1 function 0 VIA VT8235 AGP rev 0x00 pci1 at ppb0 bus 1 vga1 at pci1 dev 0 function 0 ATI Radeon 9200 rev 0x01 wsdisplay0 at vga1 mux 1: console (80x25, vt100 emulation) wsdisplay0: screen 1-5 added (80x25, vt100 emulation) ATI Radeon 9200 Sec rev 0x01 at pci1 dev 0 function 1 not configured ral0 at pci0 dev 11 function 0 Ralink RT2560 rev 0x01: irq 10, address 00:13:d3:73:7a:38 ral0: MAC/BBP RT2560 (rev 0x04), RF RT2525 uhci0 at pci0 dev 16 function 0 VIA VT83C572 USB rev 0x80: irq 12 uhci1 at pci0 dev 16 function 1 VIA VT83C572 USB rev 0x80: irq 5 uhci2 at pci0 dev 16 function 2 VIA VT83C572 USB rev 0x80: irq 11 ehci0 at pci0 dev 16 function 3 VIA VT6202 USB rev 0x82: irq 10 usb0 at ehci0: USB revision 2.0 uhub0 at usb0 VIA EHCI root hub rev 2.00/1.00 addr 1 viapm0 at pci0 dev 17 function 0 VIA VT8235 ISA rev 0x00 iic0 at viapm0 maxtmp0 at iic0 addr 0x4c: lm90 spdmem0 at iic0 addr 0x50: 512MB DDR SDRAM non-parity PC2700CL2.5 pciide0 at pci0 dev 17 function 1 VIA VT82C571 IDE rev 0x06: ATA133, channel 0 configured to compatibility, channel 1 configured to compatibility wd0 at pciide0 channel 0 drive 0: ST340014A wd0: 16-sector PIO, LBA48, 38166MB, 78165360 sectors wd0(pciide0:0:0): using PIO mode 4, Ultra-DMA mode 5 atapiscsi0 at pciide0 channel 1 drive 0 scsibus0 at atapiscsi0: 2 targets cd0 at scsibus0 targ 0 lun 0: HL-DT-ST, CD-RW GCE-8520B, 1.03 SCSI0 5/cdrom removable cd0(pciide0:1:0): using PIO mode 4, Ultra-DMA mode 2 auvia0 at pci0 dev 17 function 5 VIA VT8233 AC97 rev 0x50: irq 11 ac97: codec id 0x414c4720 (Avance Logic ALC650) ac97: codec features 20 bit DAC, 18 bit ADC, Realtek 3D audio0 at auvia0 rl0 at pci0 dev 19 function 0 Realtek 8139 rev 0x10: irq 11, address 00:20:ed:52:04:db rlphy0 at rl0 phy 0: RTL internal PHY usb1 at uhci0: USB revision 1.0 uhub1 at usb1 VIA UHCI root hub rev 1.00/1.00 addr 1 usb2 at uhci1: USB revision 1.0 uhub2 at usb2 VIA UHCI root hub rev 1.00/1.00 addr 1 usb3 at uhci2: USB revision 1.0 uhub3 at usb3 VIA UHCI root hub rev 1.00/1.00 addr 1 isa0 at mainbus0 isadma0 at isa0 pckbc0 at isa0 port 0x60/5 pckbd0 at pckbc0 (kbd slot) pckbc0: using irq 1 for kbd slot wskbd0 at pckbd0: console keyboard, using wsdisplay0 pcppi0 at isa0 port 0x61 midi0 at pcppi0: PC speaker spkr0 at pcppi0 it0 at isa0 port 0x290/8: IT8705F rev 0x02 npx0 at isa0 port 0xf0/16: reported by CPUID; using exception 16 pccom0 at isa0 port 0x3f8/8 irq 4: ns16550a, 16 byte fifo fdc0 at isa0 port 0x3f0/6 irq 6 drq 2 fd0 at fdc0 drive 0: 1.44MB 80 cyl, 2 head, 18 sec biomask ffed netmask ffed ttymask ffef mtrr: Pentium Pro MTRR support uhidev0 at uhub1 port 1 configuration 1 interface 0 Logitech HID compliant keyboard rev 1.10/1.80 addr 2 uhidev0: iclass 3/1 ukbd0 at uhidev0: 8 modifier keys, 6 key codes wskbd1 at ukbd0 mux 1 wskbd1: connecting to wsdisplay0 uhidev1 at uhub1 port 1 configuration 1 interface 1 Logitech HID compliant keyboard rev 1.10/1.80 addr 2 uhidev1: iclass
Re: SSH cipher preference change (was: Re: CVS: cvs.openbsd.org: src)
Damien Miller d...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: Modified files: usr.bin/ssh: myproposal.h Log message: prefer CTR modes and revised arcfour (i.e w/ discard) modes to CBC modes; ok markus@ This means that ssh's default cipher will no longer profit from hifn(4) or glxsb(4) acceleration. Or via C3 crypto. Their chip has a broken CTR mode. I think it actually now means that no hardware will be used for ssh. But oh well, that's life.
Expresscard re(4) cards
It would be nice if either Mark Kettenis or I could get an Expresscard re(4) card (for testing). Thanks.
dmesglog
I want to remind everyone of two things First, it is nice if you mail a dmesglog entry once in a while. (dmesg | sysctl hw.sensors) | mail -s type of machine dm...@openbsd.org Secondly, if you send the message as a MIME attachment, sorry, but it gets deleted. We do not read the MIME attachment messages. We despam, and then developers (and developers only) get to read it in a flat file. Thanks.
Re: Create a bootable usb key?
On 2009-01-10, Guillaume Thouvenin guillaume.thouve...@polymtl.ca wrote: Now next step is to have wired network working and so add support to my Attansic Technology L1E. This chip is not yet supported in OpenBSD. N.B. it is not the same as either Attansic L1 or L2. Yes right. I will have a look how driver are implemented in OpenBSD and I will try to add the support of Attansic L1E. Do you know if someone is working on it? it will happen as soon as kevlo has a board with it.
Re: Sun V240 fsck causes crash
I've got a Sun V240 that crashes every time it tries to fsck /var (sd0g in my case). This happens on more than one of these machines and with more than 1 disk. It doesn't matter if I run fsck in read-only mode, whenever it tries to read from this partition it dumps. It also happens if I try to use dd to copy the partition elsewhere. ### FSCK OUTPUT: ### # fsck -y /dev/sd0g ** /dev/rsd0g BAD SUPER BLOCK: MAGIC NUMBER WRONG LOOK FOR ALTERNATE SUPERBLOCKS? yes sd0(siop0:0:0): Check Condition (error 0x70) on opcode 0x28 SENSE KEY: Media Error INFO: 0x22dfdd1 (VALID flag on) ASC/ASCQ: Unrecovered Read Error FRU CODE: 0xf SKSV: Actual Retry Count: 983 CANNOT READ: BLK 23984032 CONTINUE? yes Yes, your disk is dead. The drive is telling you that quite clearly. The disk tried to re-read that block 983 times in a row, and then it told OpenBSD that the block cannot be read. I don't understand what part of Media error it is that people keep not paying attention to. Perhaps we should really add Your disk is dying.
Re: -CURRENT intel(4) problem
After watching the old i810(4) driver work fine for me, and seeing all the bug reports on the new intel(4) driver, I've got this bad feeling that nobody cared to test it on the older chipsets... i.e. they are not getting paid to care about legacy support. Would this be a correct assessment? Yes. A man cannot have two masters. In this case, some people are collecting pay cheques from Intel, so no wonder there is a problem. A substantial problem.
Re: kernel freeze randomly
It's a shame I don't have this kind of luck with lottery tickets. I'm able to reproduce the hang still using both -current and the latest amd64 snap. To reproduce, I just continuously scp a large file to another machine while 'apmd -C' is running. 'apmd -L', 'apmd -H', or not running apmd works fine. I'm able to reproduce regardless of AC status. It's frozen completely when it happens. I can't even break into ddb. Well I guess you should stop using apmd, then, or fix the bug.
Re: dm...@openbsd.org Question
Due to having a usage cap on my Internet connection (cellular), I don't typically run -CURRENT, and I could find no mention of this question in either faq4.html or current.html When running -CURRENT snapshots, should we send in a new dmesg every time we install a new snapshot? When new failures are spotted, the problem should be reported (with fixes if possible) to the author or the other mailing lists. dmesglog is most interesting to developers as a way to see what hardware is not being supported, or is failing in surprising ways, or such. If you flood dmesglog with the same machine report repeatedly, the effect is to hide the problems amongst noise
Re: Pre-Order Prizes
I mentioned this when I pre-ordered 4.4... I think folks thought that I was joking. Do prizes for pre-orders. Nothing fancy just something like this: 1. First 50 pre-orders win a T-Shirt and Theo signs the CD case. 2. The 100th pre-order wins a coffee mug. 3. 200th 4. 300th 5. Do something special for the 1000th. 6. etc. Those are just suggestions. The prizes could be anything. Just an idea to juice things up and hopefully sell more CDs. I find OpenBSD extremely useful and I want to see it grow and prosper... even in hard economic times. That's why I bring this up again. Or how about we skip the prizes, and Theo gets to do a bit of development once in a while, instead of making coffee mugs and signing CDs that are not even shipped out of the city where he lives? I thought the software and the ideas behind the software were enough juice, or should I just give up even trying? Is trying to make good stuff oh so 1970? You know, like manufacturing stuff people want... or need... locally? Sorry, but I am not going to spend my time making coffee mugs.
Re: Pre-Order Prizes
On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 2:34 PM, new_guy byte8b...@gmail.com wrote: I mentioned this when I pre-ordered 4.4... I think folks thought that I was joking. Do prizes for pre-orders. Nothing fancy just something like this: 1. First 50 pre-orders win a T-Shirt and Theo signs the CD case. 2. The 100th pre-order wins a coffee mug. 3. 200th 4. 300th 5. Do something special for the 1000th. 6. etc. Those are just suggestions. The prizes could be anything. Just an idea to juice things up and hopefully sell more CDs. I find OpenBSD extremely useful and I want to see it grow and prosper... even in hard economic times. That's why I bring this up again. I don't so much like the prize idea, but maybe have developer signed posters or CDs for extra $$$ and maybe in limited number of units per release. Oh yeah, that's a great idea! We can take a poster and ship it from Milk River to 20 developers around the world (say Netherlands, France, UK, Switzerland, Japan, Australia, Sweden, etc) step by step, and when each of them gets it he can pull it out of the increasingly ratty looking poster tube, sign it, slip it back -- add new postage -- and maybe the poster even eventually makes it somewhere without getting lost... and guess what! Someone can get it about 3 months later. It's going to be the same low price because we can have The Computer Shop and OpenBSD pay for all the shipping costs to get that poster all the way around the world! Naw, we'd charge all the postage to the person who is silly enough pay for a poster tube round-the-world trip, and we know the project would not one cent extra. Or how about we just keep trying to make high quality software, and hope that people support us for doing just that? I think that is a better plan.
Re: Pre-Order Prizes
Don't you guys get together few times a year for a marathon coding session? Yes, we get together to code. Sign a dozen posters then and hold'em off 'til the next release. We don't get together to sign. And we don't have posters there. The powers are in Milk River. Use google maps, see where it is. Zoom in. Zoom wy in. We don't hold the hackathon there. Put a sticker price of $500 each (or more). And then what? You think anyone would buy them? Take 10 minutes off to have devs sign them (= fun morale booster) Sell each poster for $500/each: Profit! How many posters will you buy? Anyone else? $500 per poster, signed by 10 developers. How many offers? If 10 people do that, we'll take an hour off coding to sign them. It does not take 10 minutes to sign 10 posters. Is it worth it? Or should we write code during that time, instead?
Re: upgrades for the project
After lots of very generous donations we today breached the required amount!! Thank you very very much everyone who donated!! The r200s have been ordered and the 2950 will be ordered later today. Thanks again to everyone who participated, I'd like to also extend my thanks, naturally. Thanks to Marco (for handling paypal) and Bob (on behalf of the foundation) for dealing with the mails they have received over this. And thanks to all of you for contributing; it is going to be much better to have this new stuff operating (and it uses less electricity than what I am currently using.. with the price of power being what it is... during these hostile and trying times and what-not).
Re: Dual-port gigabit PCI card options
Hi. What are my options for a well-supported 2-port PCI gigabit network card? Are intel cards well-supported? Absolutely. Except for a few very new models. We try to keep caught up, though sometimes a few very rare ones slip through the cracks until the next release (same thing will happen with 4.5, I can assure you, since has happened all the way from around 3.0 or so...) Note I am looking for older PCI, not PCI-E. I hear you... lots of PCI machines out there still.
Re: Dual-port gigabit PCI card options
Stuart Henderson(s...@spacehopper.org)@2009.03.04 02:11:41 +: On 2009-03-03, Dan dan-openbsd-m...@ourbrains.org wrote: Hi. What are my options for a well-supported 2-port PCI gigabit network card? Are intel cards well-supported? Note I am looking for older PCI, not PCI-E. Intel are the easiest to find. They will be 64-bit PCI-X (not PCIE), and these should work fine in a 32-bit slot providing no motherboard components interfere. Are there other _recommended_ dual cards other than Intel? Thanks. There are some msk's out there, and I suppose, there are broadcom bnx's, but they will all either be hard to find or more expensive. Don't you realize that we try to make openbsd work on the easily available hardware first and foremost?
Re: PF Seems To Reload Its Default Rules Unexpectedly
Ah, different semantics. :-) By default rules I mean whatever pf does *without* an /etc/pf.conf. Probably something like block all. Without any rules, pf does not block anything. come on.. stop making assumptions.
Re: arp MiTM
The problem is that, I am not an administrator of the network. I am a client of the network. The network is built on the unmanaged switches. ISP to the problem do not care, so interested in this patch. May you help with patch on OpenBSD ? The network is built wrong. No, we will not build a workaround for this problem.
Re: snapshots
Have snapshots ceased now that 4.5 is in beta? Should I just be updating my source tree and compiling to follow -current? On a trip. Will start again soon.
Re: hier command not found: ksh: hier: not found
How to use hier? i have run this command # hier ksh: hier: not found i try to # man hier i got the manual but when i try to run hier, always say hier not found. Something missing with my installation on OpenBSD 4.4 Yeah, it happens to me too: # strcpy ksh: strcpy: not found Very strange...
European orders
From a commit message an hour or so ago: Disable future European orders since the distributor is way too far behind in reconciling payments to the project for past sales, and years of trying to resolve it have made very little progress. Sorry guys.
Re: European orders
Theo de Raadt escribis: From a commit message an hour or so ago: Disable future European orders since the distributor is way too far behind in reconciling payments to the project for past sales, and years of trying to resolve it have made very little progress. Sorry guys. what? problems with payments? Yes. this is related with Wim from kd85?... Yes.
Re: European orders
I'm sorry to hear this. Yeah, and I'm sorry I had to announce it. Do you have any advice for those who allready ordered? Or should we contact the distributor? Sorry, but I don't know that yet. We'll see, I suppose. On Mar 24, 2009 11:57 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: From a commit message an hour or so ago: Disable future European orders since the distributor is way too far behind in reconciling payments to the project for past sales, and years of trying to resolve it have made very little progress. Sorry guys.
Re: European orders
i guess this also means that you dont know about a replacement company that would take up the gauntlet.. Maybe one will show up. Vacuums tend to do that. how much is shipping from canada/us to europe? Certainly more. i guess in big cities where there are many openbsd people, one order is feasable with multiple cd's... but it really seems like we europians just dont have luck with openbsd.. first the fact that we payed way more for a cd set than people paying in USD or CAD---and let me add in the same sentence that i did not mind giving that money to the project---only now it turns out that the money did not get to the project... Yes, it was very unfair.
European orders
Enough CDs will be provided to kd85 to cover orders that were placed through the order site. Only that amount of CDs will be provided to kd85. No more. In providing kd85 with enough for the direct orders, we are simply trying to provide enough for the order requests which we feel we handed over. We will not supply CDs for the bulk orders that kd85 normally supplies to various resellers in Europe, ie. book stores and computer shops. Doing so would further enrich kd85 and further increase Wim's debt to the Computer Shop and in turn the project. Those European resellers who need bulk orders are requested to come talk to aus...@openbsd.org as soon as possible; and we are trying to find a bulk reseller in Europe to make the transition quick and easy. I am certain that the resellers will understand the reason why we are here; the middle man has fallen ridiculously far behind in A/R. And no, not because of the economy. It's taken years to get this far behind. Poster and tshirt art will not be supplied to kd85, so thus there will be no sales of tshirts from there, either. Sorry. As I previously very carefully said in the commit message: Disable future European orders since the distributor is way too far behind in reconciling payments to the project for past sales, and years of trying to resolve it have made very little progress. I refuse to further enrich a person who is that far behind in accounts receivables to the Computer Shop (and in turn, thus, the OpenBSD project). People were led to believe the CD sales money funded the project. From Europe in recent years, it has not worked out as we hoped; I share in the blame for having let it go this far wrong. We've had to ask for donations to buy hardware, when the CD sales money should have been enough.
Re: persistent bios infection paper and openbsd
I've read this a few minutes ago. I'm not a developer, nor a security specialist so I was wondering if that is a serious issue for Openbsd. http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/core_bios.pdf As far as I understood, they mention the Openbsd shadow files as being vulnerable/exploitable to these kind of attacks, have a look at Page 17. The operating systems are not vulnerable. The *machines* are. There really is absolutely nothing we can do about it. Hope you enjoy the art with the upcoming release...
Re: European orders
i am sure it's more than easy to go through the papers and show where my money went and see who is right. that is all i am asking. more transparency in this open project. Oh are you talking about donation money now? That's a different thing. The main contention is about proceeds from the CD sales; as in, the Computer Shop ships CDs to kd85, and eventually kd85 has to pay the bills for those CDs. Eventually. Except kd85 is years behind. Selling CDs in Europe has almost been a loss to the project, when it should have been approximately half of the proceeds. Anyways, about donations, since that appears to be what you are asking. We have all the paperwork on the donations done via the web order system; those are in order. Thanks to all. However, Wim has not supplied any paperwork showing the donation transactions that people send in to his Belgian bank account between 2006/03/23 - 2008/04/08. And we are just supposed to trust someone who is years behind in their accounts receivables? It is kind of difficult to fathom the logic.
Re: systrace insecure [was: Re: chroot browser]
I guess you should take a look at Systrace: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systrace This was removed from NetBSD some time ago because it is vulnerable. They said it's not only possible to circumvent it, but also gain root using it. Is this fixed in OpenBSD somehow? They freaked out and did the wrong thing. systrace has a small problem. It is a very difficult problem to fix because of the kernel system call argument fetching is spread so widely. This problem was documented since the beginning: BUGS Applications that use clone()-like system calls to share the complete ad- dress space between processes may be able to replace system call argu- ments after they have been evaluated by systrace and escape policy en- forcement. That said, this is not enough reason to entirely delete the code. It still has uses. With the other address space security changes we have made, the risks from this are subtantially mitigated. You also cannot gain root except in extremely well crafted situations which are not real; systrace does have the ability to grant root unless you build the policy specifically to do such a stupid thing (actually, I am not certain if our systrace, the original, ever had that deluded ability of escalation; I think it was added by netbsd). So a project that does zero about real security issues overreacted -- probably because the code had originally come from here. Typical. One can only hope that some issue comes up in openssh, and that they then delete openssh, too.
Re: Parallel build in ports - make -j4
Marc Espie es...@nerim.net wrote: export PARALLEL_BUILD=Yes export MAKE_JOBS=4 N.B. this does not work with all ports. Yep, does not work with all ports. And I still have stuff I need to fix in make itself before we even think of fixing the ports that don't work I'm not happy with this approach of delaying all parallel building until things are perfect. In practice, a lot could be gained by simply marking all ports that are parallel-safe right now (or conversely, marking all those that aren't), without attempting to fix any. Yup.
Re: persistent bios infection paper and openbsd
On Wed, 25.03.2009 at 10:05:13 -0600, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: The operating systems are not vulnerable. The *machines* are. this begs the question: Which machines are NOT vulnerable? PC's with real roms. Hahaha. There really is absolutely nothing we can do about it. I'd say that, at least for running machines, some precautionary measures should be possible to take to thwart hackers that try to rob your machine from under your fingertips. Eg. a driver that wipes sensitive kernel memory areas after forcefully halting most tasks and doing a basic flushing of disk buffers... That won't help.
Re: systrace insecure [was: Re: chroot browser]
On Thu, Mar 26, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: real; systrace does have the ability to grant root unless you build Should that read does not? the policy specifically to do such a stupid thing (actually, I am not Oh, indeed. Sorry. systrace cannot grant root unless set up very strangely.
Re: Serial Technologies Expander PCI-232-108
We bought one of these the other day to use as a serial console server
but I had some strife getting it to work.
From one expander port to another it worked fine but from one of these
ports to any normal serial port, it returned garbage. I had the same
results with FreeBSD, NetBSD and Linux.
I finally worked out that using 1200 baud on the expander port and 9600
on the normal serial port worked ok.
It seems that this particular card needs a multiplier in
/usr/src/sys/dev/pci/pucdata.c to get it working.
Here's the diff I used for what it's worth. YMMV of course.
...
pcidump -v returns
--
4:8:0: Oxford OX16PCI954
0x: Vendor ID: 1415 Product ID: 9501
0x0004: Command: 0103 Status ID: 0290
0x0008: Class: 07 Subclass: 00 Interface: 06 Revision: 00
0x000c: BIST: 00 Header Type: 80 Latency Timer: 00 Cache Line
Size: 00
0x0010: BAR io addr: 0x3840
0x0014: BAR mem 32bit addr: 0xfe9c
0x0018: BAR io addr: 0x3860
0x001c: BAR mem 32bit addr: 0xfe9b
0x0020: BAR empty ()
0x0024: BAR empty ()
0x0028: Cardbus CIS:
0x002c: Subsystem Vendor ID: 1415 Product ID:
0x0030: Expansion ROM Base Address:
0x0038:
0x003c: Interrupt Pin: 01 Line: 09 Min Gnt: 00 Max Lat: 00
0x0040: Capability 0x01: Power Management
4:8:1: Oxford Exsys EX-41098
0x: Vendor ID: 1415 Product ID: 9511
0x0004: Command: 0103 Status ID: 0290
0x0008: Class: 06 Subclass: 80 Interface: 00 Revision: 00
0x000c: BIST: 00 Header Type: 80 Latency Timer: 00 Cache Line
Size: 00
0x0010: BAR io addr: 0x3800
0x0014: BAR mem 32bit addr: 0xfe9e
0x0018: BAR io addr: 0x3820
0x001c: BAR mem 32bit addr: 0xfe9d
0x0020: BAR empty ()
0x0024: BAR empty ()
0x0028: Cardbus CIS:
0x002c: Subsystem Vendor ID: 1415 Product ID:
0x0030: Expansion ROM Base Address:
0x0038:
0x003c: Interrupt Pin: 02 Line: 09 Min Gnt: 00 Max Lat: 00
0x0040: Capability 0x01: Power Management
---
This does more specific sub-vendor/sub-product matching, so please
give it a shot. We often find that there are other products that
don't have the high speed clock, as in the original ones people showed
us; your diff would have fed those a high clock.
The way I have been trying to approach this problem is by placing the
more specific mappings ahead of the generic mapping (ie. the generic
mapping does not look at the sub-vendor/sub-product fields). The
generic mapping is then left at the standard slow clock speeds.
I wish there was a better way of knowing the clock speeds. Anyone
seen any clue as to how that might be done?
I find it so strange that puc cards tend to have two serial chips by
different vendors. Perhaps one has a clock generator or some other
pci logic in it, and is more expensive. Shrug.
Index: sys/dev/pci/pucdata.c
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/sys/dev/pci/pucdata.c,v
retrieving revision 1.61
diff -u -r1.61 pucdata.c
--- sys/dev/pci/pucdata.c 3 Mar 2009 15:43:27 - 1.61
+++ sys/dev/pci/pucdata.c 26 Mar 2009 15:29:46 -
@@ -575,6 +575,32 @@
},
},
+ /* OX16PCI954, first part of Serial Technologies Expander PCI-232-108 */
+ { /* OX16PCI954 */
+ { PCI_VENDOR_OXFORD2, PCI_PRODUCT_OXFORD2_OX16PCI954,
+ PCI_VENDOR_OXFORD2, 0 },
+ { 0x, 0x, 0x, 0x },
+ {
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x00, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x08, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x10, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x18, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ },
+ },
+
+ /* Exsys EX-41098, second part of Serial Technologies Expander
PCI-232-108 */
+ { /* Exsys EX-41098, */
+ { PCI_VENDOR_OXFORD2, PCI_PRODUCT_OXFORD2_EXSYS_EX41098,
+ PCI_VENDOR_OXFORD2, 0 },
+ { 0x, 0x, 0x, 0x },
+ {
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x00, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x08, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x10, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ { PUC_PORT_TYPE_COM, 0x10, 0x18, COM_FREQ * 8 },
+ },
+ },
+
/* Exsys EX-41098, second part of SIIG Cyber 8S PCI Card */
{ /* Exsys EX-41098, */
{ PCI_VENDOR_OXFORD2, PCI_PRODUCT_OXFORD2_EXSYS_EX41098,
Re: European orders
I've purchased hardware from Wim multiple times over the last two or three years and found him to be fast, reliable and helpful in every order. In each, he's provided far superior service than any other vendors I've dealt with in the last decade, though some of those have been good, too. It is a real pity the project did not find him nearly as reliable when it came time to pay the money rightfully owed to the project from CD sales. As to your comments about CDs becoming obsolete, well perhaps they slowly are becoming so, but all other physical mediums share these problems of obscelence and delivery. I think (hope?) that people buy our releases for the art, and as an opportunity to give back to sustain the project (or in Europe, at least the failed hope for that). As for USB sticks, sorry, but there isn't much room on a USB stick for a 8-cartoon plot with fish as characters. The oft-mentioned model of download it from the FTP sites, and there are enough honourable people in the world who will make a donation has been an steller failure. The spirit of enlightened giving is dead. The only way to activate it is by begging. So, from time to time, we beg. ... and how well does that work. A request for money to buy 3 new infrastructure machines gathered more donation money in 1 week ... than all the other donations for the previous 6 months. I often wonder how many of those were FTP install donations. Very few, I think. Either there aren't a lot of people, or they are poor, or they lack the spirit. Shrug.
Re: European orders
In your case, I believe the best option is to download and donate. The only problem is that most people forget part 2 - donate. May I suggest a compromise? It sounds like many cannot afford the CDs and shipping, and most who spend money on the CDs are motivated to do so by the art and stickers. Assuming that a flat envelope will cost far less to ship to Brazil than will a CD, why not offer to send just the booklet and/or stickers in response to some appropriate minimum donation? Donations and sales do not mix. Businesses cannot do that. It is either a sale, or it is a gift. Please don't confuse the two. If you barter with money, you can expect the tax department of your country to come for a visit.
Re: European orders
There in Europe, there are a lot of OpenBSD users who don't like the way you handle this conflict. so what are the users going to do? complain at me, so that I stop working on openbsd? is that going to help? Richard, as a user, do you really not know your place? We don't like how you can instantly punish Wim *a honest guy who made a lot of work, efforts and spent a lot of time for the OpenBSD project* without asking third party persons to inquiry before taking alone such actions. (eg. shamming him and put it outside of the project). Instantly? The effort to force Wim to get caught up started around 3 years ago, when it was realised that his balance of payments towards the project from CD sales (via the computer shop) was years behind in. You told that this guy have stolen the money of OpenBSD donations to become rich, this is totally false and insane to say that !!! what should I say? Should I say everything is fine? Could you give more details to the public about the merchandise that were paid and non-paid by Wim's company KD85.com BVBA before shamming Wim publicly? 1 - we have never seen a cent from tshirts sold in europe 2 - we have never seen a cent from the posters sold in europe 3 - we have never seen a cent from the plush dolls sold in europe Furthermore, we know that he fell way behind paying the proceeds from CD sales. Also, could you make a publically available account report which show of how you manage the money you get from the donations of past years (various expenses, hardware, events, money used to pay developers, money used to pay YOURSELF, ...) ? I spend the donation money on hackathons and flights for the poorer developers to these hackathons, on hardware, and in the past it also paid for the electricity and the network links. Increasingly we are finding other ways to handle that. Developers don't get paid to do things; they do it for free. I get paid a salary out of cd sales, i do *not* out of donations. When CD sales money from europe don't get paid, I don't get paid. Really. I will make no further accounting of it, since I don't need to. The donations were gifts, and I spent them very well on the purpose they are intended for, and perhaps you better look back at more than 10 years of OpenBSD to realize it.
Re: European orders
As I made donations (by giving money, by purchasing CDs, t-shirts, ...) to the OpenBSD project like most of the OpenBSD users, and since I always recommends to my customers to make donations to the OpenBSD project instead of just make use of OpenBSD freely. You keep mixing up sales and donations. I'll tell you very clearly that not 1 cent European tshirts or posters has *ever* made it to the OpenBSD project. Wim kept all those profits. That was the arrangement with him, made around 10 years ago, so that his business would grow, and so that he would be able to pay the CD proceeds fully. Furthermore, the sales of CDs were not donations either. That is a product being sold, just like any other business. Wim fell behind *years* in paying the full value he owed for CD sales back to the project; via the Computer Shop. If he's making tshirts and posters and plush dolls, and receiving all the money from that to keep, then the least we can expect that the OpenBSD project gets what it is owed for the CD sales. Thirdly, the other donations you talk about, giving money, that is a real gift. We have no accounting of all those gifts, and how they made it to the project. We are certain that some must have made such controbutions, but we don't know for certain, do we! I've been asked to make an accounting of them. Well, I cannot -- since Wim never accounted them to me. He did transfer 5 bank transfers of an undisclosed amount, but nothing says if that was those gifts, or if it was complete. So I guess you have just asked Wim to account for the donations.
Re: European orders
The other side seems to have said far more than Theo in far more detail http://accounting.kd85.com/ First I've heard of it! Network Timeout The server at accounting.kd85.com is taking too long to respond. The requested site did not respond to a connection request and the browser has stopped waiting for a reply. * Could the server be experiencing high demand or a temporary outage? Try again later. * Are you unable to browse other sites? Check the computer's network connection. * Is your computer or network protected by a firewall or proxy? Incorrect settings can interfere with Web browsing. * Still having trouble? Consult your network administrator or Internet provider for assistance. And it looks like it is filtered, except towards some of you. By the same token that I think Richard missed Wim's info as it wasn't on misc, please let me know if Theo has any more detail not on misc. I'm not taking sides or showing a preference. I hope a solution can be reached quickly that is satisfactory to both parties. A solution? The solution is that Wim will not be selling CDs after this release. Check the Copyright on them. It doesn't say Wim.
Re: European orders
full value, owed for CD Sales , transfers of undisclosed amounts - some clear facts would be nice, this sounds like waffle. Watch your words. What you say may have minor effects on whether I keep making release CDs or anything in the future. I don't like your tone, whoever you are, so show some respect for what we do. 1. There appear to be no contracts, so Theo and Wim or the bodies they represent or act for, have no written agreement as to what the involved parties were supposed to do, if that is true then that is a major governance short coming and whoever let this situation come to pass needs a good kicking, in essence you've gotten the fucking mess you deserve and who ever is responsible for openbsd's legal governance (if anyone) should stand up and take the blame and sort it out. There was a gentleman's agreement between Wim that he would be a preferred distributor. He got the tshirt and poster art for free. Otherwise, he was just like another distributor, and had to pay 60% per CD. That was an incredibly sweet deal. We have no idea how many tshirts or posters Wim has made and sold in Europe. Everyone you are wearing, you should know that Wim got every cent for them. That was OK, as long as he kept the payments for the CDs up. But he did not keep up on the payments of the CDs. After it was found out that he was very late in payment, the contract was changed in some small ways to encourage him to get caught up. 2. Because there is no contract, now we descend into He said, I said and other equivalent bollocks that really no-one can verify or substantiate as there appear to be no documents or agreements or contracts that we can verify against. The world is not that simple. 3. If KD85 is delinquent in payments - who are the amounts owed to. is it ? a) The Computer Store for the supply of goods. Which I assumed are covered by some terms and conditions and invoice terms. To the Computer Shop, who pays me a salary for my efforts. b) Some legal entity that represents Openbsd, which is owed money for something, what for, it is not exactly clear - is it a revenue share from T-Shirts, Posters, fsking plush toys ? Wim received all the profits from the tshirts, posters and plush toys, lanyards, and I suppose even the mugs that are being sold at various places in Europe. . And where is the agreement covering the terms of this. ? Why does this matter? Why are you even arguing on an OpenBSD mailing list about this if you don't care about OpenBSD? Or do you care more about the beer that Wim bought you? c) Theo personally for something. 4. Donations - I would have assumed they are property of the legal entity which is Openbsd's foundation, so if that entity doesn't account clearly for donations and doesn't maintain some financial accounts that reflect where,who,when and what it was used for - then you fucking well deserve this mess. The donations are entirely seperate. According to the accounting I have here the total amounts Wim transferred from the Belgian account against donations is $3402.48, for an account which was open for many years to accept donations. That is substantially less than the normal donations that come in to the project via the other methods. Wim has provided _no_ accounting of the donations to me, so I cannot say that it has been handled right. *years* in paying the full value - what the hell does this mean ?,full-value ??? ,surely there is a declared invoice value which gets paid, you can't really retrospectively change the invoices. Each CD has a manufacturing cost. Then there is a sale cost from the Computer Shop Any distributor can buy them in =20CDs at a 40% discount. Some larger distributors got a bit more of a discount, but typically not much. Wim fell behind in paying the difference between cost and the discount value. If the Computer store is owed money , then there should be outstanding invoice amounts - There are. so either there are outstanding amounts There are. or there are not- if this is some weirdo retrospective thing where one party wants to now get extra payment for something that was never invoiced for and is not covered by something verfiable , then good luck to you. And if that works out that it kills OpenBSD in the same decade that Wim has bought a half million euro house, then yeah, I'd say that your perspective is just a teeny bit out of whack. This is a mess and worse it's a stupid mess, and forming up blindly to support one party or the other is stupid too. No agreements, less then clear facts, mud slinging == a recipe for disaster Someone get in the middle and mediate, someone who both parties trust, and get it sorted as this is going downhill fast. Mediate what? Mediate the payment of what he owes? Yes, I hope that happens before a court has to get involved. Wim will not sell product after 4.6. Other distributors and resellers will.
Re: European orders
Isn't there any OpenBSD guy defending Mr. Wim Vandeputte, a man having promoted OpenBSD year in and year out He's now put forward a document saying that he promoted OpenBSD using project money. That was never authorized. He says he has it in giant piles of T-shirt stock (yet OpenBSD gets absolutely nothing for tshirt sales in Europe). and having supported the project in Europe like nobody else probably? Supported the project? How? By taking the project's money and spending towards attendance at open sourec events where he got into the door without an entrance free, or a table fee, so that he could sell Soekris hardware and OpenBSD tshirts for his own profit? He had the best deal anyone in the world could hope for; he was considered 'open source' and then he could sell product at conferences. Sometimes from under the table, if the organizers were not terribly happy with the idea. Did the organizers know that the tshirts he had drapped over the table did not go to the project? All that OpenBSD wanted out of this deal was the proper profits from the CD sales; ie. 60% of the sale value advertised at the international site. Yet he did not meet that deal. What a shame. I know Wim personally for many years, I have seen some of his work and I have the deepest respect for him and what he has done. And then I ask... do you have respect for what I have done? Since my (slightly over meager) salary is based entirely on CD sales, and since Wim has held back payment of CD revenue for many years and instead pushed that money into his own (for-profit) T-shirt stockpile and into his own attendance at Linux and other open source events in Europe where he could sell Soekris... well, what of me? If I am not taken care of, will Wim be the next OpenBSD project leader, working with all the developers day after day to get changes into the source tree, and making releases every 6 months? You respect him because he sold you a CD, and put the money into his pocket. You respect him because he sold you a tshirt and put the money into his pocket. You respect him because he sold you a poster and put the money into his pocket. You perhaps even respect him because he passed you a beer over the table, but we wonder, who was it that was paying for that beer if he is now so in debt himself and unable to pay us, while he has a brand new house in Belgium? Sorry; it may come as a shock to you, but putting things into people's hands (CDs, tshirts, posters, money) is not what OpenBSD is about. The whole issue is not about respect. It is about money owed.
Re: European orders
2009/3/30, Daniel Seuffert i...@praxis123.de: Isn't there any OpenBSD guy defending Mr. Wim Vandeputte, a man having promoted OpenBSD year in and year out and having supported the project in Europe like nobody else probably? If they are as intelligent as I guess, they will not communicate on this list. Making this public was a huge mistake. We have been trying to get Wim to catch up on payments for more than two years -- privately. The European orders were shut down. Then I made an announcement that after 4.6 Wim would not get product, but 4.5 would ship from him. Then after a few smaller postings, Wim posted a large web page which is his side of the story, with hundreds of lines of details. So who made it public? Theo, is this essentially correct? quote src=http://accounting.kd85.com; For 4.5, I thought to be better prepared so I wired EUR 20.000 to the Computer Shop of Calgary account before anybody even asked me (I haven't gotten the proforma invoice yet). False. He is conflating two things. That is the 4.5 pre-payment, plus a requirement we established 2 years ago that he must pay off a component of his past debt before new transactions are processed. This is a very normal way of forcing clients to get caught up on their bills. Of course the old requirement was that he pay more than such a small component of the debt, as in, around 20,000 in _debt_ + the pre-order. But he's clawed back the amount he pays each time, and now he wants you all to believe that this is a big amount. It is a nothing but a kibble on the way to complete payment. With a bit of luck by the time 4.5 would officially ship, the extra orders could have brought in EUR 10.000 that I planned on wiring in May to further fund the project. Why should new profits by him be used to pay the debt? Why should the money he paid on his brand new house in Belgium when he was supposed to be so poor not pay for it? Why does he use the phrase fund the project. What he really means is repay my debt. Or perhaps he means repay a small part of my substantial debt. The day the money arrived, Theo decided to suspend the European orders and send me no CDs or artwork. False. In fact, he already had the artwork since Austin had already sent it to him accidentally around that time, against my advisement. You will note that Wim says he didn't get didn't get the art, yet then he says he already has them made. Which is it? Both cannot be true. Secondly, I have no idea when the money came in. I have nothing to do with the Computer Shop finances except as an employee. The European order site was shut down because Wim had nearly begged Bob -- a volunteer -- to shut it down in response to some minor complaint he had about how donations are mixed in with the transactions; he did not like how the order process mixed them together and he wanted it isolated for his ease. His insults to Bob, were just over the top and a decision was made fairly quickly that enough was enough, and he would not receive one more order through our assistance. Note the choice of going public not before the pre-orders but after 252 people have already placed and paid their orders, essentially screwing all of them. Wim has known that he is in arrears for payment for many years. He has known he has the sweetest possible deal with all the tshirt sales and poster sales going straight into his pocket, and also the free access / tables at the open source conferences in Europe to sell his Soekris business. Perhaps has made made inventory errors, but he certainly should not have made these errors with money that was due the project. When should we have cut him off? What month would have been best? After he's printed too large a collection of tshirts for the next release, or when? Or did he perhaps know he could be insulting towards us all because we would never cut him off at such a period? Perhaps he guessed wrong. Later he changed his mind and decided to send me some CDs, but it's not clear how many. In the meantime I have not had any communication or email explaining what the deal is. That is also completely false. There was never a decision made about not sending Wim the CDs he had already ordered; Austin and I were still discussing how we would handle the consequences of cutting him off. And as I posted a week ago, he will get what he needs for his orders. There was never a statement that he would get none to fullfill already placed orders. The suspension of the ordering site was not discussed or announced to me. I had to read it in cvs commits like all of you. In private correspondance 20090320184601.gl31...@rho.kd85.com, Wim was goading Bob to either fix some minor problem or shut the page down. A few days later the decision was made to not fix the minor problem, but instead shut it down. Bob was making it increasingly clear to me that it was either him or Wim, but I was also really concerned with the mails I saw, and
Re: European orders
If you want to speculate do it privately. I know at least Wim is willing to answer questions. A public mailinglist is the last place you should be speculating about serious acusations of this magnitude. Please stop Floor I second this . . . while I love a good drama, this is not good for the project's image and, more importantly, that which we all appreciate, the project itself. No, what hurts the project is when I get pissed off and walk away from doing OpenBSD development because I have no income from OpenBSD because a reseller who owes money is not giving it to us ... while you guys stand up for a guy who handed you a beer from the other side of a table at an open source conference he got into for free because of association with our project, which was draped with OpenBSD/OpenSSH shirts which the project never got a cent for, while selling you a Soekris he got all the profits from, and he now has a web site saying that all the money owed OpenBSD is stuck in T-Shirts? And was spent on promoting OpenBSD? When we never said that the money was to be used that way? He's poured money into the project, or he's poured it out into his own pocket? And which fellow built himself a new house? I'm sure glad I do OpenBSD for myself and my friends rather than for undeserving ungrateful people like you. The project's image? I think there are more important things.
Re: European orders - Thank you Theo and your team, some of us appreciate you!
I also add my thanks to the discussion. I do have a fundamental question to pose however. It seems that opensource culture for large projects is driven by featurism and the need to make massive changes incorporated into frequent releases. I come from a background of very long-term stability requirements for APIs and ABIs, performance figures on hardware over long life-cycles and stringent documentation. Let me guess, such a background involved payment with lots of money. Sorry, but it must be said. The downside to slow-moving systems is more obvious when you sit down and compare our security reputation against long-term stability products like HPUX, or pick any other old unix vendor. Check out their packet filter, while there. Check out the advanced things you can do with their system.. like drive modern hardware. Check any other similar long life products, same story -- every time. The problem with those products with long life cycles is that they are non-development oriented. They are closed cycle; they are dead, they are boring. The only reason they exist is to service an industry which feeds back money. The wait until the meat falls off the bones mentality in them is precisely what led many of us to work on these alive projects. Many of us waited decades for vendors to not fix the most obvious bugs, and eventually, we walked. There is only one way forward for legacy+new systems is to seriously step up the money and the people. Both. Not just one. So perhaps you are saying that too much life is a bad thing. I can see how there might be environments where that is true, but please keep those systems disconnected from the Internet, and nowhere near the systems that distribute power or other utilities to me. In fact, keep them away from systems that provide the power to the warehouses where my food ships through, or the aircraft I fly, or the traffic lights I drive near, or from my banks. Soon the places you can use such systems get rather small. I do embedded work and expect to maintain a system for decades without massive overhaul. I hope you don't hook them up to the net, because the Internet has changed substantially since 3.2 shipped. It is much more hostile because more people know how software breaks. Except you will hook them up to the net, because you think a 1-man team can keep up with this situation. Well, ok you don't believe that which is one reason why you are asking us. You can't keep up, so you wish to push the effort out to our project. We know that as a project we don't stand a CHANCE of dealing with the past and the future. And we aren't paid enough, either. I chose obsd when it was at 3.2 for a project and have maintained it with backports of fixes, missing functionality and other maintenance tasks by browsing CVS and doing some original coding; I cannot afford to change the O/S every six months to accommodate the latest release, and if I pose questions to a list about some issue with older code, I am usually ignored, so I am on my own. This wasn't always the case in this business and it was expected that an O/S would have major releases with ongoing simultaneous maintenance of previous releases for decades. Our team is small. We cannot stretch our team out to do that. There is just absolutely no business case for it; nor is it fun -- I doubt that it could be made fun. The volunteers do what they do because it is fun, sorry. When I chose obsd, it was because of isakmpd and openssl and the bsd heritage, as a bsd kernel was appropriate for the task (more than an RTOS and less than the bloat of other *nix); I qualified the performance for the chosen platform and expected that I could continue for years to develop and refine the system, but soon discovered that I was outside of the accepted paradigm. This is also true for other major projects (even worse with Asterisk for example, and of course it has forked a number of times due to various issues including dissatisfaction with the roadmap). You do realize that when you say we had isakmpd, you mean we had an IPSEC stack. You'd be stunned at the breakage we had to do to make that fit. And ipv6 caused grief again. The routing table has had to change to support the new fancy routing tables. It is all contingent. It simply is not possible to stay in the dark ages _and_ move forward. So you were running something which had just gone through *massive changes*, and yet, the minute we shipped it, we should stop that mentality, and maintain it for 5 years? Oh come on. I need an O/S with certain core functionality designed for performance on mature hardware, and to be expected to upgrade with each release would only put in peril a stable system, especially when there are no published performance benchmarks with each release (on all of the supported platforms) to permit an analysis of the cost-benefit ratio to doing an upgrade. Adding extra resource-consuming features is
Re: European orders
Wim's statement... | The understanding was that the 'leftover money', the difference | between what I paid and the discounted price, would be spent on | OpenBSD activities in Europe. ... is complete news to me. Indeed naddy, it should be news to you, because there was no such understanding. To counter that balony, over the last two years Wim has been invited to invoice back every single thing he bought for OpenBSD in Europe to the Computer Shop since the start. And he has invoiced many things back, and received credit. Translation: This means Wim did not pay for any of those developer-oriented things out of 'leftover money' since The Computer Shop has now paid for them. And even after that rebalancing to simplify the accounting, the balance Wim owes is still massive. I don't know what this OpenBSD activity is that he talks about, but I think all OpenBSD developers would understand that to means a hackathon or travel to a hackathon by a developer, or some other cost that has been approved by me, such as a hard drive array for otto's ffs2 work, or a pile of 10 soekris I bought years ago to pass out to all the pf hackers. That's the only OpenBSD activities' I can think of. Certainy it would not include a conference event where Wim drapes his tshirts over a table, nor money spent to run a conference like OpenCON, *unless I approved it*. And I never approved any of those things to be paid for out of the 'leftover money'. That 'leftover money' became a shotfall in Canada, especially in 2005-2007 when we had to ask the community for donations to fund the hackathons. The CD sales in Europe should obviously have covered that, but Wim took that money and put it into t-shirts stocks and to pay for his booth space at conferences, where he sold soekris hardware. You guys in Europe know this is true. You've seen it. Since all the hackathon costs in Europe have been charged back to Austin -- I don't know what Wim is talking about. Whatever ridiculous understanding he has, it does not fit the facts at all. WHAT OpenBSD activities in Europe is he talking about? Is he talking about gas money driving to open source events where he sold soekris hardware, or about beer he gave people at the events? None of these things help OpenBSD, because OpenBSD is not a sales organization -- it is a development community which needs the revenue to continue development. So what is it?
Re: Dual-head OpenBSD 4.5 and NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT
This is my xorg.conf which works on the 4.4 snapshot I was running. Unfortunately I can't get three screens going, and the 4.5 snapshot I tried to upgrade to on Friday is currently crashing on startup, so I can't tell if it's any better yet. This may well be a factor, as my xorg.conf is pretty straightforward : Unfortunately I have to inform you that months and months ago X.org broke multi-card X for everyone, and they have not fixed it yet. Until they fix that, you can only use one video card. They have shown strong reluctance to fix the damage. Go to their mailing lists and complain.
Where did the donation money go, Wim?
I have been in commuinication with a few people who have told me stories that Wim received donations, obviously meant for the OpenBSD project, collected at European conference tables -- and that this money has not made it to the OpenBSD project. These reports are not coming from people who gave these donatiosn, but from people who collected them at tables and gave them to Wim to give to the project. The amounts are not large, but this should not be happening. These transactions happened after the last time that Wim transferred money to the project in April 8, 2008. These transactions could not have come to the project in any other way that we are aware of, since the Computer Shop and Wim stopped doing transfers of donation money directly quite a while back since there were problems with that system. There is no other way this money made it to the project that we can think of. So Wim, where is the donation money from those events? therefore, I would like a record of all donation money ever accepted into the Belgian Bank account on behalf of the OpenBSD project. You set up a special Belgian bank account just for this purpose, so I am certain you can provide me with the official bank statements so that I can check them over. I would also like a report about the money ever collected at conference events. If you cannot come up with exact figures, I will accept estimates. Thank you very much for getting that report to me soon. I know what you transferred to the project on Dec 15, 2006 and on April 8, 2008 (when you apparently closed that account), but I do not believe there is any possible way that the sum of donations for the entire period could only be so little. The amount seems extremely low, basically it boggles the mind to think that the Belgian account pulled in donations at less than 10% the rate that the replacement German bank account pulls it in. All this donation money received by you, of course, was not spent by you on anything for the OpenBSD project. How so? Ok, everyone stay with me for a second here and let me explain. When kd85 (Wim's company) was found to be very late in payments to the Computer Shop, Wim and Austin and I came to an agreement where all the previous OpenBSD project bills paid by Wim in Europe were requested by Austin, and then those bills were considered as credit against kd85's debt. All the spending kd85 / Wim did in the past which was approved by me was credited; and thus these things were paid for by the Computer Shop. Furthermore, the Computer Shop even accepted some bills that had not been approved; Austin convinced me to be generous in this regard. (The Computer Shop went further, and purchased back almost all of Wim's old CDs, too, as a credit against his debt). Yet even after that operation done last year, kd85's debt still remains substantial. Understand what this means -- it means all the things ever bought for the OpenBSD project in Europe were paid for by the Computer Shop. So I ask -- did you buy things for the project out of the Belgian donation account? Then, when the Computer Shop came asking for receipts, did you submit receipts which were in fact paid for by the donation account, but which the Computer Shop was now credited against your company's debt? You will surely say no, but I remain sceptical. I would also like an explanation of why two transactions of 5,000 EUR were made from the Belgian donation account with an annotation saying that they were paying for OpenBSD 4.1. The sale of OpenBSD CDs was a kd85 business, and had nothing to do with donations. So why would you have transferred money from the donation account to pay for a debt owed by your business? ps. If other people know of donations made to Wim since April of last year, please let me kno
Re: Where did the donation money go, Wim?
I need to correct a few details. I have been in commuinication with a few people who have told me stories that Wim received donations, obviously meant for the OpenBSD project, collected at European conference tables -- and that this money has not made it to the OpenBSD project. These reports are not coming from people who gave these donatiosn, but from people who collected them at tables and gave them to Wim to give to the project. The amounts are not large, but this should not be happening. These transactions happened after the last time that Wim transferred money to the project in April 8, 2008. These transactions could not have come to the project in any other way that we are aware of, since the Computer Shop and Wim stopped doing transfers of donation money directly quite a while back since there were problems with that system. There is no other way this money made it to the project that we can think of. So Wim, where is the donation money from those events? therefore, I would like a record of all donation money ever accepted into the Belgian Bank account on behalf of the OpenBSD project. You set up a special Belgian bank account just for this purpose, so I am certain you can provide me with the official bank statements so that I can check them over. I would also like a report about the money ever collected at conference events. If you cannot come up with exact figures, I will accept estimates. Thank you very much for getting that report to me soon. I know what you transferred to the project on Dec 15, 2006 and on April 8, 2008 (when you apparently closed that account), but I do not believe there is any possible way that the sum of donations for the entire period could only be so little. The amount seems extremely low, basically it boggles the mind to think that the Belgian account pulled in donations at less than 10% the rate that the replacement German bank account pulls it in. I now realize that I cannot exactly tell the source accounts apart from each other on the statements I have. But this is hardly relevant, since I have a mail saying that the donation account was set up seperately to not confuse it with kd85's business operation (ie. good fiscal practice). So the donation account records must be seperatable, and I want to see them. All this donation money received by you, of course, was not spent by you on anything for the OpenBSD project. How so? Ok, everyone stay with me for a second here and let me explain. When kd85 (Wim's company) was found to be very late in payments to the Computer Shop, Wim and Austin and I came to an agreement where all the previous OpenBSD project bills paid by Wim in Europe were requested by Austin, and then those bills were considered as credit against kd85's debt. All the spending kd85 / Wim did in the past which was approved by me was credited; and thus these things were paid for by the Computer Shop. Furthermore, the Computer Shop even accepted some bills that had not been approved; Austin convinced me to be generous in this regard. (The Computer Shop went further, and purchased back almost all of Wim's old CDs, too, as a credit against his debt). Yet even after that operation done last year, kd85's debt still remains substantial. Understand what this means -- it means all the things ever bought for the OpenBSD project in Europe were paid for by the Computer Shop. So I ask -- did you buy things for the project out of the Belgian donation account? Then, when the Computer Shop came asking for receipts, did you submit receipts which were in fact paid for by the donation account, but which the Computer Shop was now credited against your company's debt? You will surely say no, but I remain sceptical. I would also like an explanation of why two transactions of 5,000 EUR were made from the Belgian donation account with an annotation saying that they were paying for OpenBSD 4.1. The sale of OpenBSD CDs was these say OPENBSD 4.0 RELEASE PART I dated Feb 28, 2007 OPENBSD 4.0 RELEASEdated Mar 19, 2007 Oops, 4.0 not 4.1; a very late payment. Yet it still is not clear why the payment was sent to the German donation receiving account. Austin and I had to resolve this issue carefully, since I cannot receive payment for CDs, that is business. the payment was supposed to be made to the Computer Shop, since it is _CD sales business_ and does not involve me financially. a kd85 business, and had nothing to do with donations. So why would you have transferred money from the donation account to pay for a debt owed by your business? I now see that I cannot discern the exact accounts in use. But the final transfer is OVERBOEKING + CLOSING ACCOUNT for a total sum of donations from Europe of 2802.48 EUR, for a long enough time that this cannot be enough. And remember I also asked what happened to the conference table donations given to OpenBSD over
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
So what if it's founder lives a mountain biking/hiking lifestyle? There are people being misled that I pay for this extravagant lifestyle out of donations. Hah. Shame on those people who spread that rumour, and also shame on those who are so easily deceived. I hike near conferences that I am invited to; flights paid for. I hike near hackathons that I must attend with developers -- hackathons tend to be near hiking areas but I am not alone in preferring this (our hackathon locations are otherwise chosen for cheap accomodation with free internet2... perhaps internet2 usage is correleted to good terrain..). Once a year I pay with my hard earned salary for a trip to hike somewhere. Then one further time a year I use the reward points -- from all my other flights and hackathon hotel bills and developer flights paid with donation money -- to get to another hiking destination. Yes... I have to take time off to do this, but as many of you know when I get back from a trip I go through all the thousands of mails I received and the project moves on. And between hikes in a foreign country I find insecure ways to partially get in touch a bit and some developers really hate that. I work hard. When I don't hike, and especially during pre-release times, I sometimes don't get outside for days at a time except on forced 10km runs. Extravagant? No. Just a life choice. I have had people accuse me privately of this. I hope others are not so easily deceived. Trust me, with the OpenBSD donations are a loss. Just look at this page, and estimate the hotel bills: http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html After you estimate those numbers, where would I find money to spend on even a slurpee? Gimme a fucking break... Donations help a lot, but they are not the whole picture. That is why we are so eager -- as a project -- get the money that Wim has taken from us, because it will help OpenBSD run more hackathons. The systems code you are running, almost half of it came from hackathons. If I can give him that and he can continue to provide this wonderful product for free, I'm happy to help him live his lifestyle (even if he doesn't play well with others at times). It's a deal. It's too bad the project doesn't have greater financial backing to allow more development of the OS goodness we enjoy--and also allow more OpenBSD people to live a Theo-like lifestyle, if they so choose. Others are trying to do it too, but they are just more quiet about it. And then there's the other catagory... the breeders...
Wim
This guy some of you think is so honest. He's filtering port 25 from cvs.openbsd.org. For what reason would he do that? Today was the first time I tried to mail him, cc'd to misc@openbsd.org, in a couple of months. So what's that all about? He's so honest, some of you think, because he bought you a beer. --n3263RVP013810.1238652361/cvs.openbsd.org ** ** THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY ** ** YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE ** ** The original message was received at Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:59:25 -0600 (MDT) from localhost [127.0.0.1] - Transcript of session follows - wvdpu...@kd85.com... Deferred: Connection timed out with ok13.kd85.com. Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours Will keep trying until message is 5 days old --n3263RVP013810.1238652361/cvs.openbsd.org Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; cvs.openbsd.org Arrival-Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Final-Recipient: RFC822; wvdpu...@kd85.com Action: delayed Status: 4.4.1 Remote-MTA: DNS; ok13.kd85.com Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2009 00:06:01 -0600 (MDT) Will-Retry-Until: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:59:25 -0600 (MDT) --n3263RVP013810.1238652361/cvs.openbsd.org Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: dera...@cvs.openbsd.org Received: from cvs.openbsd.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cvs.openbsd.org (8.14.3/8.12.1) with ESMTP id n321xOYL019813; Wed, 1 Apr 2009 19:59:25 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: 200904020159.n321xoyl019...@cvs.openbsd.org To: wvdpu...@kd85.com cc: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Where did the donation money go, Wim? Date: Wed, 01 Apr 2009 19:59:24 -0600 From: Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org I have been in commuinication with a few people who have told me stories that Wim received donations, obviously meant for the OpenBSD project, collected at European conference tables -- and that this money has not made it to the OpenBSD project. These reports are not coming from people who gave these donatiosn, but from people who collected them at tables and gave them to Wim to give to the project. [...]
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
Having some sort of Report once a year about Donation Money or even also the CD and Shirt Sales money and where it goes would help to shut up even the most ignorant. Reports possibly ala' FreeBSD Foundation; but if not, not; i personally have no doubt that you are the last Guy how would enrich himself on Money donated to OpenBSD, screw that. Out of donations received by me, a rough accounting. I am estimating parts of it because I cannot make time to dig through the file. c2k8 [the foundation paid for the hackspace/sleepspace] ~7 developers had their travel paid, $11,000 p2k8 11 developers paid their own travel 2 had their travel paid from donations - $1800 hotel - a bit less than $5000, if I recall h2k8 11 developers paid their own travel 5 had their travel paid from donations - $4000 hotel - a bit less than $8000 n2k9 16 developers paid their own travel 3 had their travel paid from donations - $3000 hotel - a bit more than $8000, if I recall right c2k9 [the foundation will pay for the hackspace/sleepspace] 6 developers flights already paid - $10,000 Anyone upset about their donations being spent that way? If you want to know how we all benefited from the spending donnation money on the hackathons please look at http://www.openbsd.org/plus.html and follow the release links at the top to; bracket the hackathons before the release, and you can guess what happened at a particular hackathon. I don't know how big people think the donations are, but sure, it is substantial. Yet it is not as much as these amounts above. The remaining is paid out of my salary, and yes, my salary is CD sales dependent. And yes, everyone including Nadine thinks that is a ridiculous situation, but so it is. As can be seen above, other expenses are handled by the OpenBSD Foundation, which is financially entirely independent of me. I have no say over what they do. Like you all, I can simply thank them for accepting contributions in the way they are fiscally permitted to, and then helping to pay for the things which they deem worthy. For instance, the big hackathons are run by them. Hopefully some smaller ones eventually, too. When you see me in another thread mentioning that Wim only transferring 1000+2402 EUR donation money to the project for the last 5 years or so, you can get a clearer picture. Since all the other things he bought for OpenBSD over the the last 5+ years have now been charged back to the Computer Shop, it is just not plausible that this is the sum of donations from Europe. Is Europe that cheap, or is there another explanation? A note -- this money is received as gifts. Then it is spent against project things, and each expenditure of course it generates a receipt. But that receipt cannot be written off against anyone's taxes. And it isn't. Doing so would be fraud. It isn't an expense since there is no income. It is a zero sum game, except for the Aeroplan points :)
Re: where to order now ?
You should be able to find a suitable order site at http://www.openbsd.org/orders.html Being in the UK I think I have two options on there. One is always lagging behind (their website currently lists 4.3!) and the other is OpenBSDEurope - is this a new seller covering Europe now Wim has been dropped as supplier? If I buy from this seller will the money be going to the project? OpenBSDEurope is a new UK-based seller who has showed up; keen to do business now that there is space for new seller. They are not associated with OpenBSD directly, except I gave permission for the word OpenBSD to be used by them in that way. Almost all resellers we are talk to are actually offering or insisting on pre-payment for shipments to them, which stands in stark contrast to the way Wim did business (requesting payment on just the actual production cost of the CD, to avoid paying VAT on the real price, and then retaining the payments for roughly 5 years). Some of the existing European distributors will still get their product from Wim this time around, since Austin convinced me that we should still give Wim a quantity. This is to avoid shock to the buyers at the end of the chain, ie you. To me, that's like feeding a dog who just bit your leg, but we also feel for you customers who's credit cards Wim charged before we even have manufacturing done. Same as with any other reseller who does clean business, 60% of the CD sales will go to the Computer Shop. Then Computer Shop will then support the project out of the proceeds on very clear terms that we have come to agree with over the years. This part works very well, thanks to Austin's dilligent attention to detail. All the other resellers have been legit and good (well, there was one other smaller one that caused trouble for a bit). Buying from Wim, much less than 60% per CD has made it back to the project over the last decade. I shudder to think of the value. Austin is still calculating the full losses we have encountered. So go ahead, buy from OpenBSDEurope. They're new, keen, and best way for me to be here in a year saying they are legit is for people to find out. Those of you who cancel orders with Wim and move to another seller who they know is not ordering from Wim? Well, it is your call :-)
Re: where to order now ?
Liam J. Foy wrote: Yes, we are pleased to be a new reseller based in the UK (we serve Europe too of course! - the 'we' bit is a close friend who is involved in distribution in the UK (which is what we're also setting up)). We are not associated with the OpenBSD project, but Theo has kindly let us use this domain. And of course, yes, money flows right back into the OpenBSD Project. All with a written contract this time, I hope? :-| There is no need to do such contracts with resellers who -- a) pre-pay their bulk orders, or b) pay on standard net-30 or such terms but more importantly c) don't get trusted to take donations for the project d) don't get to do double accounting for things they spend for us, and then charge back to us as a bill, and then also deduct the receipt against their taxes e) don't get to withhold payment for many years f) don't get to do VAT fraud on import g) don't get rights to print posters and keep the profits because we think it helps us all h) don't get rights to print tshirts and keep the profits because we think it helps us all i) print other things they were not granted the rights to do and then keep the profits j) then _transfer_ the artwork to other people for making their own tshirts, in direct violation of copyright law The situation is less favorable for these new resellers but it also means noone can be taken advantage of. They also cannot do what Wim did to us. Don't worry. These are regular resellers. And I am very happy to see them show up! Welcome, Liam!
Re: Wim
On Thu, 02.04.2009 at 00:17:35 -0600, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: This guy some of you think is so honest. He's filtering port 25 from cvs.openbsd.org. did you try sending from a different server thereafter? I've seen a failure mode where a machine appears to be up, but slowly stops accepting ever more tcp connections over time, until the system comes to a grinding halt, the last thing being becoming unresponsive to ping and finally, console lockup, on several machines. They are all different hardware, but are intel or AMD CPUs. I've seen this for a long time (years), but have no way to reproduce it, and also no way to catch debug info in the actual cases (eg. boot crash doesn't do anything), and therefore not reported it, since you don't want incomplete bug reports. I was so far unable to detect a pattern. A machine usually runs fine for months, then takes a few hours or up to 2-3 days, to get into that state. If it happens, I can usually only press the reset button. thanks for lesson in how the Internet works.
Re: Donations (was, sadly, European orders)
On Thu, Apr 2, 2009 at 12:57 PM, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I don't know how big people think the donations are, but sure, it is substantial. Yet it is not as much as these amounts above. The remaining is paid out of my salary, and yes, my salary is CD sales dependent. And yes, everyone including Nadine thinks that is a ridiculous situation, but so it is. OK, this gives me more impetus to buy CDs (I buy it off and on), but quick question - when we buy CDs, and we donate - does that go straight to you (ie, is part/whole of that your salary too, or is it pigeon holed for something else?) When you buy a CD from a reseller like Wim, we apparently lose a lot because his previous debt is still unserviced. When you buy a CD from a reseller serviced by Wim, we also used to lose, but more recently we don't lose, and it comes out to around 60%. When you buy a CD from any other reseller who buys direct from the Computer Shop, 60% goes to the Computer Shop. When you buy a CD from the Computer shop, 100% ends up in the Computer Shop accounts. OK, so what happens after that. The Computer Shop deducts the costs of making the production, which includes the artwork, music, the actual disk prodution cost, and other parts of the building the package. Then they subtract a service fee, shall we say, for fullfillment of orders and all that kind of stuff. After that, they pay me a salary, and I suppose, save a bit more in some other way for the rainy days when CD sales are lower. Or as they had to do over the last few years -- they pay extra from a previous rainy day fund because a distributor has not paid his bills on time. I work for a living, and would hate to see my income drop. I would much prefer to be able to help send things along the right way. Yup. Definately.
Re: where to order now ?
I guess Wim would be more than happy to sell his stock of stickers and T-Shirts, and especially those who believe in his sincerity, and others who might be interested in selling these items, might want to extend a hand, buying off his products, to help him rebuild lost trust Wim can rebuild lost trust by paying the Computer Shop what he owes, and also paying out the donations. He can rebuild trust by showing us why the total donations ever passed to the project comes to $3402.48, over more than 7 years. I wish those people who -- added up -- have given him more than this above value would speak up.
Re: European orders
Of course I paid for going to these events completely out of my own pocket, and even though the Netherlands is a small country, most events are further away from my home than Wim's, while Wim paid for his travel expenses out of OpenBSD (donation) money. On his web page Wim sort of now claims that his travel expenses were paid out of donations. Except I never authorized for Wim to spend donations on his own travel expenses. He has no mails which authorize that, in fact I found some very early mails which specifically do not permit that. He was given tshirt and poster revenue to do his own business growth, and he decided to start going to events out of his pocket. I have mails saying he can connect donations for the project there. Wim has never been the project; KD85 has never been the project.
Re: Why is Itojun's Funeral listed as someplace OpenBSD Donation money to..
I would assume any other donation money was just a passthough. but as I don't understand banking in europe, in Europe there are other reasons you would want to hang on to money that was donated to the project that make perfect sense and are not understandable to those of us who are used to North America. Was all donation money passed through to fund OpenBSD events in europe? I too would love to know what those European reasons are for holding on to money that one individual is giving to a second individual to give to a third individual. For years.
Re: Odd problem, may be related to relayd
I only have one small question left if I may. I do see plenty of changes from Henning and others on this and still plenty going in pf in CVS. I am not sure I follow it all yet and may be it's because it's not all finish, but scrub isn't going to be remove all together from pf is it? I am not clear as to what part of scrub is changing or being removed. Can just a quick summary, or even one line answer provide some details as to what is actually being removed, or changed from it? I can wait until the man page is changed too, but I wonder what is it actually really going on there if I may? I don't understand the question. If you don't like change, don't ever upgrade.
Re: donation
while this might be true for you, I have a totally different experience. I also saw some info about donation money and some receipts that show very clearly the money went to theo. Then you must be really good friends with Wim, since I do not have any of the information you claim to have seen. He has not shown me the books for donations coming in, or donation money going out. He has not provided a transaction log. The donations are not visible. What I have seen, though, is a list of about a hundred transactions (with receipts) which he has invoiced to the Computer Shop as credit against his debt for past CD bulk purchases by KD85. This means that those expenses cannot be billed against something else, like donation money. If he is now charging every single European expense which I authorized to the Computer Shop, then where is the donation money which was received from Europeans? Do you understand basic accounting? If he is asking the Computer Shop to pay for those things, then obviously the donations did not pay for them. Do you understand? His web page mentions his car and the kilometers it drove and the gas it burned and the hotels he stayed in. All of which was his choice -- to go to events to sell things. None of those expenses were authorized against the Computer Shop's component of the CD sales, or against the OpenBSD donations. He sold Soekris hardware at those events. That was his business, his choice to go, on margins we made very sweet compared to what other sellers get. He has no email which shows me approving those expenses against OpenBSD donations; nor does he have email which shows the Computer Shop approving those expenses against money owed for bulk CD purchasing. My main problem is that I can see money flowing from the middle-man to theo, but dont see where the money is spent from there. I only have two transfers out of all European donations ever made. They are 1000 EUR and 2402.48 EUR (this latter is said to be a closing of the donation account). Both these transactions also came out of the main KD85 corporate account, not out of the personal account that contributions were made into. There were also two 5000 EUR transactions mistakenly made by KD85 to me for CDs he purchased from the Computer Shop -- and that money was given to the Computer Shop, and thus paid in part against KD85's debt. Computer Shop could give this back to me, but it would simply increase KD85's debt to the Computer Shop since it means KD85 never paid for OpenBSD 4.0 (or 4.1, I would need to check which it is). So 3402.48 EUR for 10 years of European donations. Does this seem like it is reasonable to anyone here? Over ten years, all of Europe only donated an average of 28 EUR per month. Does that seem even possible? And what happened to the donations Wim collected at the events he attended? Were those donations to OpenBSD as he said, or were they donations to him? So I don't see the money flowing to theo at all. And that is why on a regular basis we have to go to the mailing lists and ask for additional donations to buy replacement hardware or what not. I bet enough money is missing that we would never have had to ask. I have made it very clear what I have done with the donation money over the years. I've used it to pay for hackathons and other development resources. I know it's none of my business because donations go to the project and theo is the one to decide but I cannot tell if it went into a bigass car for theo or into hardware for developers (replace car with house/food/bike/laptop/whatever) You are right. It is none of your business. And certainly everyone knows that I don't drive around a top of the line car like Wim does, heck, why do I need to drive at all when my commute to work is 10 meters. I also don't need to buy a house with OpenBSD money since DARPA paid me enough back about 10 years ago so that I could entirely pay off the 2 bedroom place. Of course I nearly ate cardboard at the time to make ends meet, but this because I knew I was in for the long haul writing of software and giving it away and probably not living a rich future so I wanted to get the mortgage out of the way. But you are right -- it really is none of your business what I do with contributions given my way by people who want to see the project do well. I'm very happy how stuff went with kd85 and I got info about what happened with my money and it's exactly as it was advertised on both the official openbsd website as on wim's website. You must be very good friends with Wim to believe that. btw, did you call Wim ? Everytime I dail his number I get him on the phone and he's willing to explain stuff. Maybe you should try that as well. His number is listed on his website. Why should I phone Wim? Noone needs trickly explanations. We need to see the books.
Request for DVI monitors in the UK
Around two weeks ago Owain (oga@) mailed out a request for some monitors in the UK, so that he could hack better on X. A pair of monitors capable of 1600x1200 resolution with vga and dvi inputs needed for debugging multi-head X11 setups in London, England. Monitors would preferably have the ability to display incoming clock rates (sync frequency, etc). Contact o...@openbsd.org. He has received no offers that I know of. If nothing is offered to him soon, I will buy these for him out of project money... I think it is very important that our X developers have the hardware they need. So that's a last call..
Re: Padlock accelerated SHA on Via C7
Has anybody been able to get Padlock accelerated SHA1 working on a C7 or is this not currently possible? It isn't worth using it. The overhead is too high.
Re: ACPI on VIA iDot 3500
So I've recently installed 4.4 on a new via idot pc3500-g motherboard, which is all great, but I note that ACPI isn't working. Is there anything helpful I can contribute to getting it working on this system? Or do dmesg notes like 'pcibios0: bad IRQ table checksum' suggest that the system is pretty much braindead? I've included a dmesg below, but no acpidump, given how big it is. Once again, thanks in advance... - Ruan OpenBSD 4.4 (GENERIC) #1021: Tue Aug 12 17:16:55 MDT 2008 dera...@i386.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/i386/compile/GENERIC cpu0: VIA Esther processor 1500MHz (CentaurHauls 686-class) 1.51 GHz cpu0: FPU,V86,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,CMOV,PAT,CFLUSH,ACPI,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,TM,SBF,SSE3 cpu0: RNG AES AES-CTR SHA1 SHA256 RSA real mem = 1005023232 (958MB) avail mem = 963248128 (918MB) mainbus0 at root bios0 at mainbus0: AT/286+ BIOS, date 10/13/08, BIOS32 rev. 0 @ 0xf9a60, SMBIOS rev. 2.4 @ 0xf (31 entries) bios0: vendor Phoenix Technologies, LTD version FDd date 10/13/2008 bios0: PC1 PC3500G apm0 at bios0: Power Management spec V1.2 (slowidle) apm0: AC on, battery charge unknown There is a heuristic which selects apm on some machines instead of acpi. A few machines unfortunately fall into this set unintentionally, but there is nothing we can do about it at this time.
Re: Sun X4140 support?
I'm looking for hardware to replace my current firewalls, and my understanding is that Opteron gear is the way to go for pf performance. Sorry, but my understanding is different. As I see it, any hardware is fine for running pf. We never optimized it for any specific hardware. Instead, it got optimized in general.
Re: beating the fdisk horse
I don't understand your questions. We compile fdisk on every platform, on every type of disk, so I don't understand what WDCC_IDENTIFY has to do with it. You only care about PCs? i am reading the fdisk source to have a better understanding what is what... it is not going really well i am afraid :] first of all, i had a long hard look at the basic programs that give information about disks in general: fdisk, disklabel, and atactl (obviously, only for ata disks) and /boot. both fdisk and disklabel use the DIOCGDINFO ioctl to get the disk geometry (and other info) but atactl is using the WDCC_IDENTIFY ata command while /boot is using int 13h. consider the following output from my eeepc: $ sudo fdisk wd0 Disk: wd0 geometry: 486/255/63 [7815024 Sectors] snip $ sudo disklabel wd0 snip sectors/track: 63 tracks/cylinder: 255 sectors/cylinder: 16065 cylinders: 486 total sectors: 7815024 snip $ sudo atactl wd0 snip Cylinders: 7753, heads: 16, sec/track: 63, total sectors: 7815024 snip the boot output is not here, but it gave me the same numbers as fdisk. so atactl's different (sigh). but the thing is, that if i trace back what the DIOCGDINFO ioctl does in ata.c and wd.c, ... it is the same WDCC_IDENTIFY that atactl does... what am i missing here? - the other issue i have been pondering is, the user mode -chs in fdisk. i remember back then when i had this clash of geometries (between say partition magic, and openbsd) i was inclined to use the partion magic one... so i had a geometry i wanted to use to override the one openbsd was giving me. but even if i specified it with -chs, fdisk still used the one it found. now i see in the source, that the user given geometry is considered, but only if there is no geometry found by the system, if the system finds one, it simply overwrites the user defined values. is this intentional? if the user is brave enough to supply a geometry, shouldn't it be used over the detected one? this would have been useful for me with dual boot when there is already some other system on the disk installed with using a different geometry. by entering this custom geometry, one will be able to use openbsd's fdisk with proper partition boundaries with a greater chance of not overwriting already existing partitions. if what i am saying is rubbish (more than possible) then at least i think this should be documented in the man page because basicly the user suplied -chs values are ignored if there is system geometry present... -f -- i'm not overweight, i'm undertall! -- garfield
Re: European orders
I was comming late to the show since I was enjoying my holliday. Please confirm or deny the theory I got from the long thread. I got the ideea that Wim received the CDs from source with 40% from the real price. Then, Wim must return the 60% profit back to the store. no, no no no no. He was supposed to keep 40% for each CD. Instead, he kept 40% + 45%. How I see it is Wim has no profit from strictly CD selling only. To compensate this, Theo allowed Wim to use designs and art from OpenBSD in order to sell the tshirts and puppets. Wim could keep the entire profits from those, and can add soekris stuff. No. I gave him that on top of the 40% he was supposed to get as profit. We expected him to pay the rest back. The facts are simple, if I get it right: if the CD set is $100, Wim will pay $40 to it, sell it on $100 pay $40 to the store and return back $60 to the projects. One can verify quick and easy if Wim did what he agreed with Theo: multiply the number of shipped CDs with price and see if Wim returned the money. Is all this correct ? No. You have it wrong. Go back to reading school. As Theo said many times, do not mix here donations and other stuff. When I saw the picture of Wim for the first time ( http://www.kd85.com/images/Wim.jpg ) I said Oh, what a sale agent picture. This is more like a business than an open source stuff ! But I am not entitled to judge by picture. I'm very sad for this news. Can someone post a picture with Wim's news house. Just to see if it's a good match for the watch. Thanks
Re: European orders
It has already been explained in detail. OK then, can someone explain from the start to the end how this was set up ? Please include prices and discounts. I'm still confused about the method and reading again the thread is not helpful. Thanks On 4/18/09, Theo de Raadt dera...@cvs.openbsd.org wrote: I was comming late to the show since I was enjoying my holliday. Please confirm or deny the theory I got from the long thread. I got the ideea that Wim received the CDs from source with 40% from the real price. Then, Wim must return the 60% profit back to the store. no, no no no no. He was supposed to keep 40% for each CD. Instead, he kept 40% + 45%. How I see it is Wim has no profit from strictly CD selling only. To compensate this, Theo allowed Wim to use designs and art from OpenBSD in order to sell the tshirts and puppets. Wim could keep the entire profits from those, and can add soekris stuff. No. I gave him that on top of the 40% he was supposed to get as profit. We expected him to pay the rest back. The facts are simple, if I get it right: if the CD set is $100, Wim will pay $40 to it, sell it on $100 pay $40 to the store and return back $60 to the projects. One can verify quick and easy if Wim did what he agreed with Theo: multiply the number of shipped CDs with price and see if Wim returned the money. Is all this correct ? No. You have it wrong. Go back to reading school. As Theo said many times, do not mix here donations and other stuff. When I saw the picture of Wim for the first time ( http://www.kd85.com/images/Wim.jpg ) I said Oh, what a sale agent picture. This is more like a business than an open source stuff ! But I am not entitled to judge by picture. I'm very sad for this news. Can someone post a picture with Wim's news house. Just to see if it's a good match for the watch. Thanks
Re: 4.5 delivery - How do they do it?
This morning I had an email arrive at Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:58:36 +1000 (EST) from computershop.ca announcing that my order had been mailed. At 09:05 I went to check my PO box for the morning mail and found my 2 sets of 4.5 CDs How did Austin and the gang know that my package had made it out of customs in time to arrive in this morning's mail and to send the email at just the right time? We are working on changes to do this trick in a variety of our deamons and in our kernel; precognition means that we can identify an upcoming period when such packets will come in -- packets which would defragment and subsequently arrange themselves into an attack above the socket layer. since we can precognitively pre-identify the risk, we can drop them right on the ethernet card and avoid even having them dma into memory! Well, we have only parts of this working in the tree. A few pieces are still missing, but Austin is trying a prototype of the algoritms and heuristics in his shipping operation.
Re: how to configure minicom with my serial console (RS232) on USB.
What is the cu ? Could you tell me the full name of the package or ports. It's right near the ls package.
Re: ThinkPad T60 audible bell *very* loud
I'm using this ThinkPad T60, and just realized that if using an earphone, the console's audible bell is blowing my ears off. I couldn't find anything relevant in mixerctl -a output, nevertheless I've changed every outputs control's volume to 0 to see which one could be it (no luck). Is it possible to lower the system beep's volume, so my ears won't bleed by tomorrow? :) Holy cow, 20+ messages about a damn bell, and important changes to the tree get ignored. Get a life, people -- get a frigging life!
Re: ThinkPad T60 audible bell *very* loud
Theo de Raadt wrote: Holy cow, 20+ messages about a damn bell, and important changes to the tree get ignored. Get a life, people -- get a frigging life! Hi Theo.. I appreciate what you've done for the project, but *what* changes to the tree? Your lack of any attempt to educate yourself is your problem. There's the message on openbsd-cvs about the MD changes to bsd and bsd.rd, but many people aren't subscribed to that; I myself am currently only subscribed to misc, plus the occasional checking of openbsd.org. Bummer. So you whine about the bell. I'm sure this change is important, but a bell that (presumably) is painful to hear *is* bloody annoying, so I don't see asking how to fix it as being particularly unreasonable. Sometimes the minor things are important, even if there are a few gaping holes left lying around. Removing the wires from a laptop speaker is trickier than a desktop. I think we should make it louder.
Re: newfs block device
Have I completely lost my mind or should I be able to give newfs a block device? The former. You cannot newfs a block device.
Re: Too many partitions?l
I set up a dual booting OpenBSD/ubuntu (only for the audio, I swear!) install. I made sure to have the Ubuntu installer make an ext2 data partition for sharing. For some reason OpenBSd couldn't see the ext2 partition until I added it manually. I would like to know why. The exact way that this works is not well documented. Let me explain it here. I don't want to add this to any manual page, sorry. A MBR is found. If inside it we find a A6 partition we look for a disklabel at the right offset. If that disklabel is validated (checksums, etc) then we use that disklabel as read from the disk, exactly as it is. If any of the above fails then we generate a spoofed label. This is filled with information that we find from the MBR. (On other architectures without an MBR, we may also do some other kinds of spoofing). If you read a spoofed label, and modify it and write it out, it becomes a real label for the next boot, as described above. New MBR partitions will not be noticed. After adding partition 'n' I can mount and use my data drive fine. My only guess was that I had too many partitions, but the FAQ says up to 'p') which is greater than 'n' so that's not it. So any ideas why OpenBSD didn't pick up the data partition on it's own? If you look closely you'll see that it picked up the ubuntu root drive (as sd0i) which was also not within the original disklabel(8) b limits. It was there originally. The other one was not. Hmm, there may be another problem in that it will only spoof 3 partitions (it should probably be able to spoof more).
Re: Problem with slow disk I/O
From your benchmark it seems your server's only purpose is to untar and remove ports.tar.gz in a loop or what are you trying to show? I'm very happy that OpenBSD ffs is a bit slower then Linux ext3. He's showing that for his test case, he should be running Linux. Enjoy.
