Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 08:26:07PM +, Miod Vallat wrote: Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS internals to be able to complete them properly. No, there isn't. There are, however, two de-facto janitors for the OpenBSD kernels: martin@ and I. Those janitors, however, are experienced developers. Quite frankly, the idea of the janitor being a rookie scares the hell out of me. How can you trust people if these people admittedly do not know what they are doing, or why they are doing things one way and not another? You cannot, of course. But janitor being a rookie doesn't imply he doesn't know what he's doing. He could be doing a job that doesn't require any special knowledge - like rewriting documentation into a different format, fixing HTML correctness, fixing typos and unclear places in text - or who asks if he isn't sure how to continue properly. CL
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:23:53AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] Yeah, right. [ ... ] I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Yes, it is a significant problem that we won't hand-hold whiners who could by now be digging for things to fix. There are hundreds of ways to self-motivate, but instead we get whine whine whine. We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do Maybe the outsiders just cannot find the PR database. I put openbsd pr database into google and looked into all links on the first page. The pr database is always mentioned, but never linked. Where is it? CL
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, 3 Nov 2007 12:01:46 +0100 Karel Kulhavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do Maybe the outsiders just cannot find the PR database. I put openbsd pr database into google and looked into all links on the first page. The pr database is always mentioned, but never linked. Where is it? Right on the front page. The Bug Tracking link. Eric.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:49:03AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. The most amusing thing about this thread is that such a list has been published for years (it's somewhat short right now, but there's some simple stuff in it) and is the first search hit when you search on one of the obvious queries on google. Surely they are too busy whining at us for lists, to actually search for the lists. I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. Who do you mean with whiners? People who report bugs? Those people save you work, because instead of having to run time-consuming tests to find the problems, you just rake the problem reports in from these people. We know you'll never write diffs, and it is up to you to prove us I fixed some bugs in BRL-CAD (a 30 year old oldschool C-only 3D modelling system from the US Army) because BRL-CAD people are friendly and helpful. Instead of you suck, they tell you this XX you wrote cannot work because of YY. I asked here for janitor list, got a reply that it doesn't exist. I looked into the PR database into documentation section but there were 0 hits. I looked into other sections but that seemed to be complicated, I don't want to invest significant time into learning OpenBSD internals at the moment. CL wrong. If you don't write diffs, we have a difficult time feeling any loss.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 04:55:20PM +0100, Pierre Riteau wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 10:30:24AM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote: On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would we waste time on things that may be useless? Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right. I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? -Nick Remember the motto guys: it's ``shut up and hack'', not whine about getting something to do, then whine about how to do it, and hack. If you don't know what to do, read source code, then hack. Here I'd like to warn before substituting reading code for reading interface specification. What happened on the Linux kernel shows that code cannot be by principle substituted for interface specification: 1. Person A wrote a nonblocking function X performing a task T. The spec in his mind was X does T, whether it blocks or not is undefined. 2. Person B looked into the code, saw X does T in a nonblocking way and inferred: the spec for X is that it does T in a nonblocking way 3. B wrote a caller function that called X with an assumption that X doesn't block, everything was OK 4. A rewrote X in a way that now it blocks 5. Since now a hidden deadlock is in the kernel and noone has the slightest idea that anything wrong has happened. CL If you don't know how to read source code, then learn by reading books, then read source code, then hack. If you don't want to read, just shut up. Pierre Riteau -- a modest contributor who like the way it is.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 12:01:46PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: | On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:23:53AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: | We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from | outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do | | Maybe the outsiders just cannot find the PR database. I put | openbsd pr database into google and looked into all links on the first | page. The pr database is always mentioned, but never linked. Where is it? If your query doesn't give you what you search for, at least try some others. OpenBSD bugs and it's the first hit. Also, as has been mentioned in this thread a couple of times before, it's linked of the OpenBSD website under the quite obvious name of Bug Tracking. Searching doesn't mean : I try one thing and give up after that. It takes some effort to find what you're looking for, and the answer isn't always a search engine. The OpenBSD website is actually quite easily browsable if you know what you're looking for. If you're looking for a database of problems or bugs, it's quite easy to find it. And if it's easy to find but your search did not give you what you were looking for then your search wasn't extensive enough. Cheers, Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd -- [++-]+++.+++[---].+++[+ +++-].++[-]+.--.[-] http://www.weirdnet.nl/
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:05:20AM -0700, Dag Richards wrote: n0g0013 wrote: On 31.10-11:12, Nick Guenther wrote: [ ... ] and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect. Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter how secure it may be. Right? i think we'll simply agree to disagree. i personally find it quite disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the community's decision. it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute of it's leaders (developers). Consider it the voice of experience (bitter). Its easy to tell which ones are the programmers. They write code, then they submit it, it does not suck too much and they take the suggestions of the current project leads. Then they resubmit better code. The rest of us should simply buy CD's, ask and answer the occasional Buy CD's until you get into the situation I got into with Vim Vandeputte - ordered a hoodie as a xmas present, he said he can ship it until xmas, and the first reply was after xmas. Take this, add the name calling and unfriendly atmosphere on the mailing list and you have an explanation why the OpenBSD isn't more popular than is - because there are factors that motivate people away from OpenBSD. More popular OpenBSD means more people sending donations. CL question, and other wise keep quiet. When you run a Data Centre, that has thousands of users serving tens of thousands of customers who need medical services on a 24 hour basis, you will miss the hand holding and warm friendly thoughts less; and appreciate the complete documentation and conformity to that documentation way way WAY more. BTW I was a Linux user from kernel .92 ( that is some time in 1994 ) through 2.6. Trying to run that professionally was always fun and exciting. Man I don't miss that.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 12:16:50PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:49:03AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. The most amusing thing about this thread is that such a list has been published for years (it's somewhat short right now, but there's some simple stuff in it) and is the first search hit when you search on one of the obvious queries on google. Surely they are too busy whining at us for lists, to actually search for the lists. I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. Who do you mean with whiners? People who report bugs? Those people save you work, because instead of having to run time-consuming tests to find the problems, you just rake the problem reports in from these people. The problem is that people have limited spare time to look into OpenBSD matters, and these threads often don't result in much happening. Sending bug reports and such information is of course useful, but isn't related to the discussion at hand. We know you'll never write diffs, and it is up to you to prove us I fixed some bugs in BRL-CAD (a 30 year old oldschool C-only 3D modelling system from the US Army) because BRL-CAD people are friendly and helpful. Instead of you suck, they tell you this XX you wrote cannot work because of YY. I asked here for janitor list, got a reply that it doesn't exist. I looked into the PR database into documentation section but there were 0 hits. I looked into other sections but that seemed to be complicated, I don't want to invest significant time into learning OpenBSD internals at the moment. Try fix something that bothers you, that is the way most people get involved. In terms of kernel code, drivers are mostly seperate from everything else and don't require an understanding of all the internals to work on.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 12:16:50PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:49:03AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: Surely they are too busy whining at us for lists, to actually search for the lists. I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. Who do you mean with whiners? People who report bugs? In the quoted sentence Surely they are too busy whining at us for lists, to actually search for the lists, Theo appears to refer to people who are too busy whining at the devlopers for lists, to actually search for the lists.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 12:01:46PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 09:23:53AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote: ... We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do Maybe the outsiders just cannot find the PR database. I put openbsd pr database into google and looked into all links on the first page. The pr database is always mentioned, but never linked. Where is it? It would seem that the most difficult part of this search is to realize that PR stands for problem report, not public relations. Perhaps not. One must also come to grips with the obscure and esoteric tendency of certain programmers, who refer to problems as bugs. There is also the barely plausible conjecture that OpenBSD's problem reports might just be somewhere at www.openbsd.org.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Nov 3, 2007 4:29 AM, Karel Kulhavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They write code, then they submit it, it does not suck too much and they take the suggestions of the current project leads. Then they resubmit better code. The rest of us should simply buy CD's, ask and answer the occasional Buy CD's until you get into the situation I got into with Vim Vandeputte - ordered a hoodie as a xmas present, he said he can ship it until xmas, and the first reply was after xmas. Take this, add the name calling and unfriendly atmosphere on the mailing list and you have an explanation why the OpenBSD isn't more popular than is - because there are factors that motivate people away from OpenBSD. More popular OpenBSD means more people sending donations. Your first problem is that you think this is some kind of popularity contest. It isn't. No one cares as much that openbsd adoption increases as they do about it being a good system. No one ever has. That's why no one will be sad when I call you a tool. Tool. You are the latest (again and again) in a long string of whiners. If you can't tell from the general tones of the responses you've gotten, your drivel bores people. Your whining doesn't contribute to anything useful, so you're not going to get anywhere with it. You're really just a bona fide troll. DS
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Karel Kulhavy wrote: You cannot, of course. But janitor being a rookie doesn't imply he doesn't know what he's doing. He could be doing a job that doesn't require any special knowledge - like rewriting documentation into a different format, fixing HTML correctness, fixing typos and unclear places in text - or who asks if he isn't sure how to continue properly. So, start by sending diff's then. Almost every diff's I saw sent in, got reply one way or an other. In case this is not clear to you then. You don't need to asked someone, send your diff's and you will get reply to them if worth it.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Karel Kulhavy wrote: Maybe the outsiders just cannot find the PR database. I put openbsd pr database into google and looked into all links on the first page. The pr database is always mentioned, but never linked. Where is it? This only again proof the point of waisting time try to help. How much obvious can it be. Right on the front page of OpenBSD.org. So, you can't find the obvious and you asked for help looking for less obvious things. So, do you really thing this demonstrate the obvious that it would be a wait of time then. This is the same as saying, hey guys. I want to read the FAQ to learn the system, but I can't find it, please hold my hand and show me. Or even saying, guys, I want to read on OpenBSD, but I can't find the site itself, however you manage to send emails to the list. Hmmm. Catch 22 I guess.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Hi! On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 05:16:06PM -0400, Daniel Ouellet wrote: So, start by sending diff's then. Almost every diff's I saw sent in, got reply one way or an other. My recent experiences differ, for my last 2 submissions (an issue with swig, sent to ports@ after interaction with the maintainer; the sendmail nit I sent to tech@ a few days ago). [...] Kind regards, Hannah.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
2007/11/3, Darren Spruell [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Nov 3, 2007 4:29 AM, Karel Kulhavy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They write code, then they submit it, it does not suck too much and they take the suggestions of the current project leads. Then they resubmit better code. The rest of us should simply buy CD's, ask and answer the occasional Buy CD's until you get into the situation I got into with Vim Vandeputte - ordered a hoodie as a xmas present, he said he can ship it until xmas, and the first reply was after xmas. Take this, add the name calling and unfriendly atmosphere on the mailing list and you have an explanation why the OpenBSD isn't more popular than is - because there are factors that motivate people away from OpenBSD. More popular OpenBSD means more people sending donations. Your first problem is that you think this is some kind of popularity contest. It isn't. No one cares as much that openbsd adoption increases as they do about it being a good system. No one ever has. That's why no one will be sad when I call you a tool. Tool. You are the latest (again and again) in a long string of whiners. If you can't tell from the general tones of the responses you've gotten, your drivel bores people. Your whining doesn't contribute to anything useful, so you're not going to get anywhere with it. You're really just a bona fide troll. DS Can we stop the thread here please? You are not contributing anything positive to the discussion. And anybody else that doesn't have anything positive to add to this and any other thread please refrain from posting. Developers can say whatever they want, OpenBSD is their project. Actually, it's Theo's project. But everybody else please stop the insanity. Nobody is whining or trolling here. Except those that insist in calling names and posing as mean. Probably because they think it's cool to be mean in the OpenBSD mailing list. Guess what. You only look stupid. Just because developers pose as mean doesn't grant you any right to do so. It doesn't mean it's right either. Instead of replying and replying, and bashing the newcomers, could you please SHUT UP! and hack?. There would be no long whining and trolling threads if everybody thought before hitting reply and preferably ignored the supposedly trolls' and whiners' posts. To Karel and the rest asking legitimate questions, don't take offense. Developers can't invest time in teaching, or writing roadmaps, or todo lists. Period. Stop arguing or giving ideas. Nobody is listening. And don't even think of taking offense from the rest. Sadly, those mean posts are the result of a trend that started some years ago, from the newcomers by the way. P.S. Sorry Darren for directing it to you. Nothing personal! ;-) You just happened to be the last poster. -- Gerardo Santana
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Hannah Schroeter wrote: On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 05:16:06PM -0400, Daniel Ouellet wrote: So, start by sending diff's then. Almost every diff's I saw sent in, got reply one way or an other. My recent experiences differ, for my last 2 submissions (an issue with swig, sent to ports@ after interaction with the maintainer; the sendmail nit I sent to tech@ a few days ago). Let me say this. I am not native English, but doesn't the word interaction mean a level of communications between two party? So, you got feedback to start with from the maintainer. If that diff's is not in, may be the devs are busy and haven't picked it up yet, or may be you didn't follow the advise of the maintainer for it. Or may be the person that usually deal with sendmail is not available at the moment. Looking at the various changes in that section, http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/src/gnu/usr.sbin/sendmail/cf/ostype/ It sure is not a very active one and may be, just may be it might take a bit more time to get review by the right person, or the person interested in it. Your diff was sent: 2007-11-01 22:19:19 http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-techm=119395606819644w=2 Less then 48 hours and on weekend as well. So you expect anyone to just jump right away to put it in? May be it's just wrong, or may be it wasn't looked at yet. Searching on marc for pass one, I don't see a huge amount of them to see if you can judge yet as to put a complete judgment on it. If you diff is good, it will be in, if not, it will not. Doesn't mean you shouldn't send in some diff's. Don't expect each and every one of them to be put in. Best, Daniel
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Sat, Nov 03, 2007 at 10:30:05PM +0100, Hannah Schroeter wrote: So, start by sending diff's then. Almost every diff's I saw sent in, got reply one way or an other. My recent experiences differ, for my last 2 submissions (an issue with swig, sent to ports@ after interaction with the maintainer; the sendmail nit I sent to tech@ a few days ago). That will be fixed within the next ten minutes, at least for your swig patch ;-) It's true -- sometimes submissions don't get feedback in time or are just dropped. This sucks, but it happens, and I've no idea how to deal with this problem in general. (personally, if I'm short of time, I tend to ask submitters to send me a reminder if nothing happens within a few days or weeks). Ciao, Kili
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
This include example and full diff's below as well.
May be this is a waist of time, but will see.
Some say they needs some details, then here is an example, and this took
me only about 30 minutes or so from start to finish, including getting
the source tree.
Doesn't mean it will be pick up, but it sure is not that hard to do and
doesn't need years of experience.
Start by getting the tree:
http://openbsd.org/anoncvs.html#starting
Some example on how to get the tree:
http://openbsd.org/anoncvs.html#EXAMPLE
Then pick something you want to work on or do. Previously explain as
well as an easy example. Just style (9)
man 9 style
Just as an example, pick:
1. Use a space after keywords (if, while, for, return, switch).
or may be even:
2. Indentation is an 8 character tab. Second level indents are four spaces.
or even:
3. Do not add whitespace at the end of a line, and only use tabs
followed by spaces to form the indentation. Do not use more spaces than
a tab will produce and do not use spaces in front of tabs.
Or anything else to start with that you want.
Then go from there. Use what ever editor you want and go hunting.
Just as an example, I will hunt for space...spacetab
I just pick anything.
Just for the sake of argument or example, I pick the first one:
/usr/src/bin/csh/init.c for fun. and look for the above.
Then you create a diff from that from your favorite cvs, or the one you
downloaded the source from obviously.
Just as an example, I did it form one find in the explications page
pointed out in the URL above. You email the diff to you, check it out to
make sure it does look right and then you can forward it to the list
with explications of what it does. Try to keep it simple and small as
this is easiest and will most likely get picked up faster and specially
if you address one thing only per diff, it make it that much easier for
the devs to check.
Then if it is good, it will be put in and if not, then it will be ignore.
So, I did the diff's for the file I just checked above and as you can
see, there is plenty of corrections that can be done here and needs no
brain to do it really, but can help make the code cleaner over time and
just follow the style 9:
cvs -d [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/cvs diff -upN init.c HEAD | mail
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Write the email and in this case, this is only and 100% style 9 for
spacetab replacement only for code alignment in the source. Nothing
else. Use proper title and put some details as to what this diff's for.
Here, it is a diff for style 9 only on /usr/src/bin/csh/init.c.
Not very exciting for sure, but never the less may well be picked up and
put in by someone that fell it's important to respect the style 9 in the
source and so far it is. But that's not an important diff's either. So,
it may well be picked up right away, or in a few months, or not at all.
Then you wait for the diff's to be put in, for you to get feedback, or
been told you are not doing it right and here is what you should do.
Word of caution as well. You may get very dry feedback as well if your
diff is bad. Just be ready to receive it and keep going, or work it
again to make it better.
So, this got you the following diff's.
Hope this help anyone that wants to help a bit and say they do not know
how to do it.
Best regards,
Daniel
***
Index: init.c
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/bin/csh/init.c,v
retrieving revision 1.6
diff -u -p -r1.6 init.c
--- init.c 2003/06/23 16:42:15 1.6
+++ init.c 2007/11/03 23:08:07
@@ -47,86 +47,86 @@ static char rcsid[] = $OpenBSD: init.c,
struct biltins bfunc[] =
{
-{ @, dolet, 0, INF },
-{ alias, doalias,0, INF },
-{ alloc, showall,0, 1},
-{ bg, dobg, 0, INF },
-{ break, dobreak,0, 0},
-{ breaksw, doswbrk,0, 0},
-{ case,dozip, 0, 1},
-{ cd, dochngd,0, INF },
-{ chdir, dochngd,0, INF },
-{ continue,docontin, 0, 0},
-{ default, dozip, 0, 0},
-{ dirs,dodirs, 0, INF },
-{ echo,doecho, 0, INF },
-{ else,doelse, 0, INF },
-{ end, doend, 0, 0},
-{ endif, dozip, 0, 0},
-{ endsw, dozip, 0, 0},
-{ eval,doeval, 0, INF },
-{ exec,execash,1, INF },
-{ exit,doexit, 0, INF },
-{ fg, dofg, 0, INF },
-{ foreach, doforeach, 3, INF },
-{ glob,doglob, 0, INF },
-{ goto,
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 12:57:44PM -0700, Ted Unangst wrote: On 10/31/07, Peter N. M. Hansteen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i didn't find it on google (i am a google retard), if you post me the link not only will i offer to maintain it for the developers but will endeavour to link-up with the website team to ensure it is easily found. Unless I'm very mistaken what art was talking about is even linked from the www.openbsd.org front page. you're mistaken. :) art was talking about searching for openbsd todo list. the term openbsd todo came up with the following link at art@'s website: http://www.blahonga.org/~art/openbsd/todo.html. If someone's looking for things to do, try those. -0- -- This is the LAST time I take travel suggestions from Ray Bradbury!
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Development is not the same process as writing a whiny mail. that is a shame. i can probably better understand the relectance to re-visit this if it has failed before. perhaps, others are right, perhaps linux can tolerate it because it's not as good as openbsd. Oh, geee. You think you're so unique that you were the first one to think of this and that you're the first one to ask for hand holding? It _HAS_ failed before. Many, many, many times. My todo list has been on the web for over 6 years. It has given us one or two developers, but mostly it has gotten me shitpiles of mails asking for holding hands. Probably around 20 people I spent hundereds of hours on, giving advice, explaining things, helping debug, holding hands. The total result of committed code: 0. Maybe, just maybe it made me slightly bitter. People say that they'll do things because it makes them feel good and like they are participating. But actually doing stuff is work, so that's not interesting. //art
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Development is not the same process as writing a whiny mail. that is a shame. i can probably better understand the relectance to re-visit this if it has failed before. perhaps, others are right, perhaps linux can tolerate it because it's not as good as openbsd. So, why are you giving up already? Doing so, just proof the point that it's more talk and a waist of time for so many to help get you started. May be you have all the good intentions in the world, but acting like that is just convincing that it's a waist of time to do it in the first place. How difficult can it be to just start doing style(9) as an example and at a minimum, this way you learn to do proper patch. Even if that's the only thing you learn, it's already something in the right direction. Does it mean that for doing even this, hand holding is needed too? It's been said many times that developers are waisting their time doing this and it doesn't produce output. Now if you act like that, you just once more re-enforce the point that it is a waist of time. Roll your sleeves and start simple, and see where it will lead you. Talking and talking about it and then giving up at the first instance of not having someone holding your hands is pretty week and only proof the point. Just give it a try and stop trying to put the blame on someone else not helping getting you started. Best, Daniel
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Agreed I needed to peek OpenBSD code a couple months ago and found it extremely readable. Doing simple tasks can be a better path leading to new kernel engineers. Just posting your task list on this list isn't a commitment to coach new developers, but can provide a solid material to start coding. Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. On 10/30/07, n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 30.10-20:26, Miod Vallat wrote: [ ... ] That's when you need as much support as possible. And that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide. i believe the task list itself would be positive , even if not much happens around it. they are good for the community as well as the codebase. you are not commiting yourself to mentoring and tutoring every idiot who wants a crack at the kernel, you're simply saying, look if you think you're good enough to do the work, here are some things that i know, from my experience, need done. the learning and effort comes from interested parties. this sort of delegation does work in other projects, perhaps if we have a good list we can figure out how to make it work here too. -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Gerardo Santana Gsmez Garrido wrote: 2007/10/30, Miod Vallat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS internals to be able to complete them properly. No, there isn't. There are, however, two de-facto janitors for the OpenBSD kernels: martin@ and I. Those janitors, however, are experienced developers. Quite frankly, the idea of the janitor being a rookie scares the hell out of me. How can you trust people if these people admittedly do not know what they are doing, or why they are doing things one way and not another? That said, I have a huge todolist, as a brain dump in text format. A good quarter of it are simple tasks, which one may consider janitor level. I am even considering posting it to tech@ on a rainy day with a bit more details. I am adamant I'll find volunteers to work on the various items. But in order to be able to trust their work, I'll need to share knowledge and make sure these people are smart and bold enough to understand what they are doing. This is not a problem, per se. The problem is - as usual - time. There are items on my list I don't have time to do, which would take me N hours. If I need to talk to someone and ``hold his/her hand'' and guide him/her for 4*N hours, I've lost even more time. I am not reluctant to share my experience. I just don't have enough time to do this, and I can not guarantee I'll be able to devote those 4*N hours to someone to help him/her get started and work on nice things. That's a waste, because these janitoring tasks make you learn a lot of things in no time. But I don't want to betray the trust of people willing to help, as long as I am able to help them get started until they can fly by themselves, by not being there enough time in the beginning. Working on the kernel is not something you can do with a ``1 hour every week or every month'' rate. You need to dive for a longer time, especially at the beginning, because there are many things to get acquainted with. That's when you need as much support as possible. And that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide. Miod I had a similar problem at work. After investing a lot of time training a new engineer to accomplish [database, servers, network] administration tasks, taking his/her hand, guiding him/her through the steps I want him/her to make things the-way-I-want-it... they leave. And I have to start all over again with the next engineer. I was tired of that. The last time, I made her write the documentation in Docbook, foolproof guides, for the next engineer. Problem solved, more or less. Marc Espie is so good at that for example. Anybody with basic skills and enough interest can port software to OpenBSD. My point is that maybe instead of tutoring a person, time is better used writing documentation or guidelines about where to start, what steps to follow and how to do things the-way-you-want. These documents will reach more people and have more impact than tutoring someone. Alternatively, perhaps 'Kernel Janitor' is the wrong way to put it. In my mind, two of the big wins for OpenBSD are the documentation, and the fact that the system is but together as a whole, kernel and binaries. Whilst the kernel itself may be too high a jumping-off point for inexperienced people, might some of the simpler bits of userspace be a gentler introduction? One thing I have noted on the commit list, is the number of commits of documentation/comment typo fixes, bringing things in line with style(9), and the like. I will freely admit that I can't code for toffee, but I am an experienced proofreader, and I can generally pick my way through existing code and follow what it does. If there were a list of 'These man pages need proofreading', or 'These source files could do with a style(9) audit', I could (and would, oh dear...) give hours of my time to the project. I would hope that proofreading-type tasks would require minimal hand-holding from the experienced devs, barring looking at completed diffs and giving feedback. I would not wish to take away any time from those more capable than I, but I do believe with a small amount of assistance I and people like me could make a contribution. With respect to 'Foolproof guides for new engineers', if anyone is considering such a thing I would happily help lay them out and collate them. Perhaps you don't want engineers who would like a foolproof guide though? :-) This is me chucking my hat into the ring, to try and do my duty according to the last two points under http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq1.html#Support :-D Si1entDave
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Just posting your task list on this list isn't a commitment to coach new developers, but can provide a solid material to start coding. They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would we waste time on things that may be useless? Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right. I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? -Nick
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would we waste time on things that may be useless? Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right. I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? Man, you've got a lot of anger to deal with.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Nick Guenther wrote: On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would we waste time on things that may be useless? It's almost like If you've gotta ask, Don't ask. Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right. I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? I do not speak for the developers, but I think maybe I know where they are coming from. You get into this, not to do some good and useful, but as a violent and visceral reaction to bad code. (bad something anyway) Essentially: This stinks. There's gotta be a better way. Or this has to be easy. And go to enourmous trouble to show that it is easy. Probably closer to mountain climbing than anything in current cs curricula. -Nick
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] Yeah, right. [ ... ] I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-08:20, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are unable to communicate productively otherwise. surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. of course, there will be a large attrition rate, most people like the idea but can't stick the learning curve. others may be intelligent and able but less confident and just need pointed in the right direction. obviously the intention should be to try and capture the latter without loosing energy on the former.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, Bob Beck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Nick Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-31 08:40]: On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right. Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? Yes, and yes. Basically look, when it comes to the kernel there are two types of student, the self taught, and the hopeless. While we will more than be willing to help people who take the initiative themselves to look for something and work on it. This takes a significant amount of our time and energy. A lot of it actually. Yes, learning the kernel and how the basics work is a barrier to entry. It needs to be so, people without the motivation to get over that hump on their own will simply sap too much time from the people who have otherwise. Basically I'm telling you, if you want to play in this area, you need to earn your stripes. *earn* - not have shown to you. Sorry if that sounds elitist, but that's the simple fact. Already overworked senior developers do not have time to spoon feed people who already demonstrate that they will not take the initiative to learn things on their own. Sorry, that's just the facts guys. Thanks. *that's* clear. It's good to be elitist about code quality, that's what attracts me to OpenBSD. I just didn't see the connection right away. Sorry for wasting your time but thanks for shining a light upon how it works. -Nick
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
* Nick Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2007-10-31 08:40]: On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would we waste time on things that may be useless? Simple. You start reading code. Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right. I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? No, newbies learn something by reading code. and finding something they are interested and passionate enough in to learn how something very difficult works, then realizing that they are a complete idiot and it doesn't work that way, and then doing it again, several times. Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? Yes, and yes. Basically look, when it comes to the kernel there are two types of student, the self taught, and the hopeless. While we will more than be willing to help people who take the initiative themselves to look for something and work on it. This takes a significant amount of our time and energy. A lot of it actually. Yes, learning the kernel and how the basics work is a barrier to entry. It needs to be so, people without the motivation to get over that hump on their own will simply sap too much time from the people who have otherwise. Basically I'm telling you, if you want to play in this area, you need to earn your stripes. *earn* - not have shown to you. Sorry if that sounds elitist, but that's the simple fact. Already overworked senior developers do not have time to spoon feed people who already demonstrate that they will not take the initiative to learn things on their own. Sorry, that's just the facts guys. It's the difference between: 1) Help me, I don't know how this works but it's cool I want to do things. - Did you try to figure it out? No please show me. Tell me what to do... sit and wait for direction and 2) Ok, I think this is important, and I think it works this way... - No you're not quite right, your assumptions are wrong at a, b, and c go back and try again Oh, ok goto top Number 2 gets to doing useful things a hell of a lot faster, and the time spent by the person giving the - reply is a heck of a lot more productive. -Bob
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-11:12, Nick Guenther wrote: [ ... ] and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect. Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter how secure it may be. Right? i think we'll simply agree to disagree. i personally find it quite disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the community's decision. it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute of it's leaders (developers). -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-08:20, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are unable to communicate productively otherwise. surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. of course, there will be a large attrition rate, most people like the idea but can't stick the learning curve. others may be intelligent and able but less confident and just need pointed in the right direction. obviously the intention should be to try and capture the latter without loosing energy on the former. Lists have been made before, by a few developers. It did not work then, and it won't work now. Development is not the same process as writing a whiny mail.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:01:03PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31.10-08:20, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are unable to communicate productively otherwise. as opposed to a majority of people who talk and not code anything? here is a solution for you -- read http://openbsd.org/query-pr.html and start fixing those. pretty simple solution if you get no bugs of your own. cu -- paranoic mickey (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] Yeah, right. [ ... ] and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect. Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter how secure it may be. Right?
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] Yeah, right. [ ... ] I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Yes, it is a significant problem that we won't hand-hold whiners who could by now be digging for things to fix. There are hundreds of ways to self-motivate, but instead we get whine whine whine. We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do more than whine whine whine. Hey, don't blame us if many of you guys are lazy whiners. STOP telling us that we need to do more than we already do. If you want to be more involved, _you've_ got to step up to the plate. But please, first cut the whining. It's just childish.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. No, the severe and prevelent attitude toward the possiblilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is what makes OpenBSD the most secure operating system on the planet. It's not perfect but it works. It is a high stress environment to work in, and guess what, you have to be prepared to have your work criticized, often brutally. It often makes the people who must do that criticism look callous, and heck, it's not fun to do.. This is why we'd prefer people get up to speed on their own so we have to do it less. Do you think people like having to tell people their work sucks? Now of course your work would never suck, but get real, look at 99% of the software you see out there. People's work *usually* sucks, and none of us are immune from that. Our experience has been that people who can't learn how stuff works and find an area they are *passionate* about to work in do not survive the necessary scrutiny to get completed work done in that environment. They give up because it's too hard. So please stop wasting our time, unless you wish to prove us wrong - which will merely prove us right and gain us another developer if you manage it. -Bob
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. The most amusing thing about this thread is that such a list has been published for years (it's somewhat short right now, but there's some simple stuff in it) and is the first search hit when you search on one of the obvious queries on google. //art
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i personally find it quite disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the community's decision. it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute of it's leaders (developers). Instead of doing something useful like reading code, identifying and trying to fix bugs, you are whining on misc@ asking ``why are you guys mean and don't tell me what to do'' stop and think about this attitude for a second, please. Development is an involved process, it takes a lot of reading and commitment to get to the point where you're actually able to do something useful, and no list or misc@ chit-chat will change it.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-09:49, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. We know you'll never write diffs, and it is up to you to prove us wrong. If you don't write diffs, we have a difficult time feeling any loss. a software community is made of more than developers. -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-15:25, mickey wrote: [ ... ] on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are unable to communicate productively otherwise. as opposed to a majority of people who talk and not code anything? here is a solution for you -- read http://openbsd.org/query-pr.html and start fixing those. pretty simple solution if you get no bugs of your own. anyone, who thinks that learning and development need nothing more than web web access to PR database is mistaken. development is a complex process, one that requires a great number of things not least which is an idea of where to start. one can also look to the large numbers of patches that are created but never used (yes this is complicated network of reasons too). why must we railroad ourselves to a decision before the discussion has even happened? it would appear that most do not want the discussion to happen even though they are neither obligated to participate or action the ideas within it. that is strange to me but as i've said, i'm new. -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
snip as opposed to a majority of people who talk and not code anything? here is a solution for you -- read http://openbsd.org/query-pr.html and start fixing those. pretty simple solution if you get no bugs of your own. cu -- Good point. I was wondering what to do next, once/if I can finish fixing a wi driver issue... Let me raise one question... There are quite a few books written about how certain things work on a kernel level, but they're for other operating systems. If we had such documentation, even if it isn't kept up-to-date, it would be a start point. As I stated in an earlier message, OpenBSD code is very, very readable. It could be used in lots of college classes around the world. A book could provide an additional way to fund the project. Obviously, it is not an easy task, particularly from the commercial side. Deals would have to be made and they tend to be more attractive to the publisher side
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, Nick Guenther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would we waste time on things that may be useless? Why not start with the PR database? Pick a category and class that appeals, do a search or two, and off you go with problems to solve. The fact that they're in the PR database would seem to indicate that fixing them would be useful for *someone*. In my experience at my day job, good fixes for janitor issues can often require a broad vision for all the interacting parts. If they were simple nits, they would have been fixed on the spot. Instead, they're still irksome because the solution isn't completely obvious. (Maybe my definition for janitor issue doesn't match yours...) Philip Guenther
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. The most amusing thing about this thread is that such a list has been published for years (it's somewhat short right now, but there's some simple stuff in it) and is the first search hit when you search on one of the obvious queries on google. Surely they are too busy whining at us for lists, to actually search for the lists. I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. We know you'll never write diffs, and it is up to you to prove us wrong. If you don't write diffs, we have a difficult time feeling any loss.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-09:25, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] Lists have been made before, by a few developers. It did not work then, and it won't work now. Development is not the same process as writing a whiny mail. that is a shame. i can probably better understand the relectance to re-visit this if it has failed before. perhaps, others are right, perhaps linux can tolerate it because it's not as good as openbsd. as for the whining. i'm not. nor am i asking anyone to do anything they are not happy to do. some communities thrive on communication, feedback and ideas. i'm new to the openbsd community. -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Okay, so if we're looking for a list of simple tasks to train ourselves, PR list is a good place. At least I've learned something today (mandatory whine : why did we have to wait the 17th post to see this list mentioned ?). On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] Yeah, right. [ ... ] I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Yes, it is a significant problem that we won't hand-hold whiners who could by now be digging for things to fix. There are hundreds of ways to self-motivate, but instead we get whine whine whine. We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do more than whine whine whine. Hey, don't blame us if many of you guys are lazy whiners. STOP telling us that we need to do more than we already do. If you want to be more involved, _you've_ got to step up to the plate. But please, first cut the whining. It's just childish. -- Vincent GROSS GUIs normally make it simple to accomplish simple actions and impossible to accomplish complex actions. --Doug Gwyn (22/Jun/91 in comp.unix.wizards)
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-10:05, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] the problem is not our lists. [ ... ] but no. they intend to keep whining, and saying it is our fault. where you get the your fault from is unfathomable. neither is anyone suggesting that the problem is our lists, simply that a list of simpler tasks _may_ encourage younger/new developers to participate. anyway, this really is taking me away from coding now so i'm going to drop off and let us all get back to something productive. p.s: i started looking at the source code some weeks ago. i'm a good way from having a handle on it -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-11:12, Nick Guenther wrote: [ ... ] and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect. Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter how secure it may be. Right? i think we'll simply agree to disagree. i personally find it quite disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the community's decision. it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute of it's leaders (developers). There is no community that you speak of. There are people who write diffs, and people who _don't_ write diffs. In that sub-group of people who don't write diffs, there are a few who whine loudly and say we are the reason why. Boo hoo. If you're not going to write diffs, stop being whiny babies who say that you don't write diffs because of us either step up to the plate or shut up. geez, is this kindergarden?
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-09:53, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] There is no community that you speak of. that much is apparent. There are people who write diffs, and people who _don't_ write diffs. In that sub-group of people who don't write diffs, there are a few who whine loudly and say we are the reason why. Boo hoo. i do write diffs. i have never suggested that you (or any other developer on this list) are a motivating factor in that, positive or negative. the fact that i haven't yet writen an openbsd diffs is a seperate issue. quite what all this has to do with whether the janitor list is productive or not is beyond me. you have stated you don't believe it is, the only reason the discussion continues is around name calling. it is all rather perverse and certainaly not a motivator to contibute. i expect that to be no loss to those here. -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 13:41 -0200, Marcus Andree wrote: snip If we had such documentation, even if it isn't kept up-to-date, it would be a start point. As I stated in an earlier message, OpenBSD code is very, very Design and Implementation of the 4.4. BSD Operating System
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 10:30:24AM -0400, Nick Guenther wrote: On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... How can we get started on the code unless we have some idea of where to start on the code? Sure we could just code whatever, but why would we waste time on things that may be useless? Obviously patches will be subject to peer review. Even if a patch isn't approved, the coder should have learned something new and useful. Yeah, right. I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? -Nick Remember the motto guys: it's ``shut up and hack'', not whine about getting something to do, then whine about how to do it, and hack. If you don't know what to do, read source code, then hack. If you don't know how to read source code, then learn by reading books, then read source code, then hack. If you don't want to read, just shut up. Pierre Riteau -- a modest contributor who like the way it is.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
All the developers currently active in OpenBSD have followed the same process: scratch their own itch. Start using OpenBSD. Notice things which are not perfect (there are a lot of them), fix them. Get noticed. Once you send enough correct fixes, you get an account. If your fixes are bogus, we will usually tell you they're bogus. It's not our job to hold your hand. We value autonomy a lot. It's fairly easy to find things to do: just look on the various mailing-lists. It's very easy to find stuff at your level, whatever that might be. Don't expect to become a rock-star overnight. All people in OpenBSD have grown over the years. The best way to do sexy things is to start with the grunt work, and to move up from there.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 31.10-16:44, Artur Grabowski wrote: [ ... ] surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. The most amusing thing about this thread is that such a list has been published for years (it's somewhat short right now, but there's some simple stuff in it) and is the first search hit when you search on one of the obvious queries on google. i didn't find it on google (i am a google retard), if you post me the link not only will i offer to maintain it for the developers but will endeavour to link-up with the website team to ensure it is easily found. -- t t w
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:01:03PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31.10-08:20, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are unable to communicate productively otherwise. surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. of course, there will be a large attrition rate, most people like the idea but can't stick the learning curve. others may be intelligent and able but less confident and just need pointed in the right direction. obviously the intention should be to try and capture the latter without loosing energy on the former. What hinders you to start looking at interesting spots in the OpenBSD source code and send in diffs for stuff you found and think their wrong? Hmm Yeah, sounds like work! -- :wq Claudio
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: why must we railroad ourselves to a decision before the discussion has even happened? it would appear that most do not want the discussion to happen even though they are neither obligated to participate or action the ideas within it. that is strange to me but as i've said, i'm new. the discussion has already happened. many times. you missed it.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
They don't need a list. They could already have started coding. Yet we see how few people actually do start coding. Instead, they choose to write in english... on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are unable to communicate productively otherwise. we appear to have people who can code we do? then they had better start proving it, instead of whining. surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. of course, there will be a large attrition rate, most people like the idea but can't stick the learning curve. others may be intelligent and able but less confident and just need pointed in the right direction. the source code is out there. the problem is not our lists. it is motivation. the minute they are motivated to stop whining and actually look in the code, then they might do something useful. but no. they intend to keep whining, and saying it is our fault. obviously the intention should be to try and capture the latter without loosing energy on the former. if you wanted us to not lose energy, a lot of you would have shut up and started looking at the source a couple messages ago.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:56:29PM +, n0g0013 wrote: On 31.10-09:49, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. We know you'll never write diffs, and it is up to you to prove us wrong. If you don't write diffs, we have a difficult time feeling any loss. a software community is made of more than developers. Yes, a software community needs a logo, a wiki and mailing list. There is no need for developers if the comunity can write mails, change the wiki and hold logo contests from time to time. The code will materialize himself -- it is as simple as saying let there be code and there will be code. -- :wq Claudio
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31.10-09:49, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. We know you'll never write diffs, and it is up to you to prove us wrong. If you don't write diffs, we have a difficult time feeling any loss. a software community is made of more than developers. Pardon me - but isn't this specific thread about newbie developers? -- This officer's men seem to follow him merely out of idle curiosity. -- Sandhurst officer cadet evaluation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 01:41:14PM -0200, Marcus Andree wrote: snip as opposed to a majority of people who talk and not code anything? here is a solution for you -- read http://openbsd.org/query-pr.html and start fixing those. pretty simple solution if you get no bugs of your own. cu -- Good point. I was wondering what to do next, once/if I can finish fixing a wi driver issue... Let me raise one question... There are quite a few books written about how certain things work on a kernel level, but they're for other operating systems. start writing a book then... cu -- paranoic mickey (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
n0g0013 wrote: On 31.10-11:12, Nick Guenther wrote: [ ... ] and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect. Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter how secure it may be. Right? i think we'll simply agree to disagree. i personally find it quite disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the community's decision. it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute of it's leaders (developers). Consider it the voice of experience (bitter). Its easy to tell which ones are the programmers. They write code, then they submit it, it does not suck too much and they take the suggestions of the current project leads. Then they resubmit better code. The rest of us should simply buy CD's, ask and answer the occasional question, and other wise keep quiet. When you run a Data Centre, that has thousands of users serving tens of thousands of customers who need medical services on a 24 hour basis, you will miss the hand holding and warm friendly thoughts less; and appreciate the complete documentation and conformity to that documentation way way WAY more. BTW I was a Linux user from kernel .92 ( that is some time in 1994 ) through 2.6. Trying to run that professionally was always fun and exciting. Man I don't miss that.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:50:14PM +, n0g0013 wrote: On 31.10-15:25, mickey wrote: [ ... ] on the counter-side we appear to have people who can code but are unable to communicate productively otherwise. as opposed to a majority of people who talk and not code anything? here is a solution for you -- read http://openbsd.org/query-pr.html and start fixing those. pretty simple solution if you get no bugs of your own. anyone, who thinks that learning and development need nothing more than web web access to PR database is mistaken. development is a complex process, one that requires a great number of things not least which is an idea of where to start. yes development of yourself is a complex process to which only yourself can do any help (or harm). nobody here is your mother and will not do anything about what you want to get. get it yourself! cu -- paranoic mickey (my employers have changed but, the name has remained)
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:28:03PM +, n0g0013 wrote: On 31.10-11:12, Nick Guenther wrote: [ ... ] and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Well that's the point of it; or at least, a useful side-effect. Linux can get away with sending fanboi masses at its code because it's fine with fanboi masses poking at all parts of the kernel, no matter how secure it may be. Right? i think we'll simply agree to disagree. i personally find it quite disheartening to hear the attitude that prevails here but that's the community's decision. it certainaly seems to refelect the attitute of it's leaders (developers). I don't know about that, but the bug list seems to work well around here. The time I submitted a patch, it was for some dinky little bug that probably no one would ever hit (who's playing text mode star trek these days?) but Theo picked it up in a day or two. While some dinky little bug reports I sent to other less elitist projects have sat out there for years. I can understand, a lot of projects, free or otherwise, fall into the trap of having to make a low priority queue and then never being able to read out of that queue, but it's a little discouraging when it happens all the same. So if I were ever able to do much of anything, I'd probably want to try here over those other places, even if there was a risk of looking silly and being told as much. -- Mike Small [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Vincent GROSS wrote: Okay, so if we're looking for a list of simple tasks to train ourselves, PR list is a good place. At least I've learned something today (mandatory whine : why did we have to wait the 17th post to see this list mentioned ?). the PR database is quite well visible on the OpenBSD website. It's even a direct link on the homepage even, so come on... On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31.10-08:40, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] Yeah, right. [ ... ] I don't understand. Is newbies learning new things a waste to you? Do you think they won't really learn anything unless the patch is approved? Or will the patches not be subject to peer review? Or are you worried at who would pass for peer review getting overwhelmed by a huge volume of poor quality patches? and i would suggest that the severe and prevelant attitude toward the possibilty of poor patches or under-educated actions is the most significant barrier to encouraging new/young developers. Yes, it is a significant problem that we won't hand-hold whiners who could by now be digging for things to fix. There are hundreds of ways to self-motivate, but instead we get whine whine whine. We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do more than whine whine whine. Hey, don't blame us if many of you guys are lazy whiners. STOP telling us that we need to do more than we already do. If you want to be more involved, _you've_ got to step up to the plate. But please, first cut the whining. It's just childish.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, Marcus Andree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we had such documentation, even if it isn't kept up-to-date, it would be a start point. As I stated in an earlier message, OpenBSD code is very, very readable. It could be used in lots of college classes around the world. A book could provide an additional way to fund the project. Obviously, it is not an easy task, particularly from the commercial side. Deals would have to be made and they tend to be more attractive to the publisher side for one thing, it would always be out of date. and the thing people need to learn is not specifics, but principles. not so much priniciples of operating system development (though that is important), but openbsd principles. take pf. every release it does more, but the principle is that it should be as simple as possible. this principle is more important than any discussion of binary trees vs hash tables vs cryptographic checksums or whatnot.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 03:50:14PM +, n0g0013 wrote: On 31.10-15:25, mickey wrote: here is a solution for you -- read http://openbsd.org/query-pr.html and start fixing those. pretty simple solution if you get no bugs of your own. anyone, who thinks that learning and development need nothing more than web web access to PR database is mistaken. development is a complex process, one that requires a great number of things not least which is an idea of where to start. mickey gave you a place to start. i know of at least one developer who showed up and started mailing fixes for PRs. why must we railroad ourselves to a decision before the discussion has even happened? it would appear that most do not want the discussion to happen even though they are neither obligated to participate or action the ideas within it. that is strange to me but as i've said, i'm new. you should read the mail archives for this discussion that has never happened. you're not the first to write a mail in this vein. just start using the system. if it suits you, stick with it. when you find a problem, try and fix it. everything you need is there, if you look. or think of another way to contribute. just buying CDs and t-shirts helps. jmc
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 31.10-09:53, Theo de Raadt wrote: [ ... ] There is no community that you speak of. that much is apparent. There are people who write diffs, and people who _don't_ write diffs. In that sub-group of people who don't write diffs, there are a few who whine loudly and say we are the reason why. Boo hoo. i do write diffs. i have never suggested that you (or any other developer on this list) are a motivating factor in that, positive or negative. the fact that i haven't yet writen an openbsd diffs is a seperate issue. quite what all this has to do with whether the janitor list is productive or not is beyond me. There is a list as pointed out by others. As evidenced by your ubiquitous emails on the subject, I'll put it simply: you don't get it, nor will you probably ever get it. An important theme of OpenBSD is simplicity, in this case that is applied by simply coding, not adding complexity to the situation by writing endless emails to a mailing list. Greg -- Ticketmaster and Ticketweb suck, but everyone knows that: http://ticketmastersucks.org http://lodesertprotosites.org Dethink to survive - Mclusky
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Theo de Raadt wrote: geez, is this kindergarden? Not yet, despite valiant efforts to the contrary. CDs shipped today. I might even use 'em. I do use this list. One of few refuges of sanity.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 05:03:24PM +0100, Vincent GROSS wrote: On 10/31/07, Theo de Raadt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We've got a PR database with bugs in it, and we NEVER get fixes from outsiders. That's not news to anyone, if they actually wanted to do more than whine whine whine. Okay, so if we're looking for a list of simple tasks to train ourselves, PR list is a good place. At least I've learned something today (mandatory whine : why did we have to wait the 17th post to see this list mentioned ?). Surely the PR list is a fairly obvious place to look for things that need fixing? -- Benjamin A'Lee :: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subvert Technologies :: http://subvert.org.uk/
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
I'll say it again more clearly -- all of you whiners just plain suck. We know you'll never write diffs, and it is up to you to prove us wrong. If you don't write diffs, we have a difficult time feeling any loss. a software community is made of more than developers. Clearly, you have no idea what represents the OpenBSD community then.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i didn't find it on google (i am a google retard), if you post me the link not only will i offer to maintain it for the developers but will endeavour to link-up with the website team to ensure it is easily found. Unless I'm very mistaken what art was talking about is even linked from the www.openbsd.org front page. This discussion begs the question: Why is it so important to find handholding to start kernel hacking? Kernel hacking isn't for everyone, and as far as I can tell it isn't necessarily such a glorious existence either. The only way to find out if it /is/ for you, is the hard way: Put in the time needed to understand how to solve a particular problem, code your fix and submit the patch to [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you do manage to put together a halfway useful patch and post it on tech@, you will get some measure of feedback. How you respond to that feedback will help determine if you are cut out for kernel hacking. And again, why focus narrowly on the kernel? There's a whole base system out there, and it would be deeply unfair to forget about packages. And of course, if your coding skills aren't all that hot, there are several types of activities that would benefit the project which may not even involve contributing code. -- Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team http://bsdly.blogspot.com/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/ Remember to set the evil bit on all malicious network traffic delilah spamd[29949]: 85.152.224.147: disconnected after 42673 seconds.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, Benjamin M. A'Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Surely the PR list is a fairly obvious place to look for things that need fixing? For whatever reason, it wasn't. http://www.openbsd.org/faq/faq1.html#Support doesn't mention it, and the PR list, though linked on the front page, isn't emphasized at all. But I'm not complaining. This sort of thing is one of those barriers that keeps out the riffraff who would drag the project down, or something (whoo partyline). -Nick
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 10/31/07, Peter N. M. Hansteen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: n0g0013 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: i didn't find it on google (i am a google retard), if you post me the link not only will i offer to maintain it for the developers but will endeavour to link-up with the website team to ensure it is easily found. Unless I'm very mistaken what art was talking about is even linked from the www.openbsd.org front page. you're mistaken. :) art was talking about searching for openbsd todo list.
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 07:28:05PM +0100, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: Unless I'm very mistaken what art was talking about is even linked from the www.openbsd.org front page. For anyone still searching for art@'s mystical, elusive list, here's how to find it... G o o g l e [OpenBSD_TODO_] ^ [ Google Search ] [ I'm Feeling Lucky ] | ^ | | 1. type here 2. click here -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD User Group | MetaBUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://phxbug.org/ | http://metabug.org/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ | Daemons in the Desert | Global BUG Federation
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Men, This is a long list of emails. I read them all for fun. You want to know where to start, then you can simply do very simple things if you want as simple as taking the code and check for very simple style(9) stuff as simple as. spacespacespacetab for example. style(9) is very specific about that. This is so simple and no brain at all is needed to do it and the patch are simple to review. Start there and do that. Then do more of style(9) and keep going. Get ready to get hit too in the process. I did a lots of clean up in apache for example. Took me months to do and was no fun, but I stick with it. It got put in and I wanted to do more of it as I earn part of my living with apache, so it's important to me. But the fact is that the code suck big time. Much cleaner to read now, but men it suck! No one will tell you otherwise here. I would invest way more time to replace it with lighttpd instead, but that decision haven't be done and I have no say in it either. There is also plenty of patches that comes to tech@ that needs testing. So, do that, test them and send feedback. This is as important as coding. If you find bugs, stick with them and test them well. Try to fix. You can't always do it. I know I try some, but still no reason not to try. And keep at it, or find something you need or like and do it. I did. It's been almost two years now that it started and it's not finish, far from it. It's hard to do right, it pretty darn expensive thank you! Hopefully when it will come out if will be well receive, but that doesn't mean you can't start doing very simple things and keep going. All the time spend sending lots of emails about it, may have given you plenty of patch already. Download the source and search for the very simple brainless example provided and see if you can come up with that. Again, I am not a developers here and nor do I have commit, so you sure can say I talk to my ass, but again, just do it and then you will be surprise that it may well just be put in. I did it and send my diff and it got put in. Then I send more got feedback that some was crap and looking back it was! Try more, but what go to do me wasn't the work, it was the darn mess of what I pick to work on and the fact that no one wanted to spend the time to read the diff as it is just no fun. Henning did a lots of it so as others, but the fact still stand. It's pretty darn bad to start with and yes I got no fun out of it. I learn a few things along the way and decided to work on something else I needed from scratch and get that going and got myself the help I needed along the way. So, stop complaining and just try it and see where it will lead you. You will be surprise how friendly people can be when you send diff's. Keep telling everyone what they should do and you will get hit hard. Hope this help you some, but you wanted something simple to try. Just try it. Or do like I saw many start here. Send man diff corrections. Many are just simple English corrections, so you sure could do that for sure. I know I would have done that long ago, but believe me, you don't want me to try to correct English spelling! (; I can't write properly in the first place. Sure it got better over time, but that was because I keep at it and more then once I got private emails explaining to me the meaning of what I wrote. (; The funniest part of tat was that some send me emails and thought I would be offended. All the contrary. In every cases, I got a good belly laughter out of it. Looking back, some are pretty funny, but they are in the archives for years to come and to make fun of me with. However, I keep going at it and it's better then before. So, start and keep going. You never know where you will be next. Hope this help some anyway. Daniel
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 2007 Oct 31, at 8:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: surely there must be _some_ merit to creating a list of lower level development tasks (as dictated by those with experience to judge) to encourage people to enter the development cycle. First, you're assuming that there exists amongst the OpenBSD developers a desire ``to encourage people to enter the development cycle.'' I kinda doubt that that's the case. More developers often isn't a good thing; see ``The Mythical Man-Month'' for a popular treament of the problem. But, if you're serious, one good way would be to follow the changes made to the code -- after all, that's the whole point of a public CVS repository. When you find something that you can point to and say, ``I know why so-and-so did that,'' then you can go looking for other things that would benefit from the same treatment. And if you don't understand why the changes are being made, you need to improve your coding skills to the point that you do. Cheers, b [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pkcs7-signature which had a name of smime.p7s]
OpenBSD kernel janitors
Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS internals to be able to complete them properly. CL
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS internals to be able to complete them properly. No, there isn't. There are, however, two de-facto janitors for the OpenBSD kernels: martin@ and I. Those janitors, however, are experienced developers. Quite frankly, the idea of the janitor being a rookie scares the hell out of me. How can you trust people if these people admittedly do not know what they are doing, or why they are doing things one way and not another? That said, I have a huge todolist, as a brain dump in text format. A good quarter of it are simple tasks, which one may consider janitor level. I am even considering posting it to tech@ on a rainy day with a bit more details. I am adamant I'll find volunteers to work on the various items. But in order to be able to trust their work, I'll need to share knowledge and make sure these people are smart and bold enough to understand what they are doing. This is not a problem, per se. The problem is - as usual - time. There are items on my list I don't have time to do, which would take me N hours. If I need to talk to someone and ``hold his/her hand'' and guide him/her for 4*N hours, I've lost even more time. I am not reluctant to share my experience. I just don't have enough time to do this, and I can not guarantee I'll be able to devote those 4*N hours to someone to help him/her get started and work on nice things. That's a waste, because these janitoring tasks make you learn a lot of things in no time. But I don't want to betray the trust of people willing to help, as long as I am able to help them get started until they can fly by themselves, by not being there enough time in the beginning. Working on the kernel is not something you can do with a ``1 hour every week or every month'' rate. You need to dive for a longer time, especially at the beginning, because there are many things to get acquainted with. That's when you need as much support as possible. And that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide. Miod
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
2007/10/30, Miod Vallat [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Is there a list similar to Linux kernel janitors also for OpenBSD? It's a list of tasks for which you don't have to be experienced in the particular OS internals to be able to complete them properly. No, there isn't. There are, however, two de-facto janitors for the OpenBSD kernels: martin@ and I. Those janitors, however, are experienced developers. Quite frankly, the idea of the janitor being a rookie scares the hell out of me. How can you trust people if these people admittedly do not know what they are doing, or why they are doing things one way and not another? That said, I have a huge todolist, as a brain dump in text format. A good quarter of it are simple tasks, which one may consider janitor level. I am even considering posting it to tech@ on a rainy day with a bit more details. I am adamant I'll find volunteers to work on the various items. But in order to be able to trust their work, I'll need to share knowledge and make sure these people are smart and bold enough to understand what they are doing. This is not a problem, per se. The problem is - as usual - time. There are items on my list I don't have time to do, which would take me N hours. If I need to talk to someone and ``hold his/her hand'' and guide him/her for 4*N hours, I've lost even more time. I am not reluctant to share my experience. I just don't have enough time to do this, and I can not guarantee I'll be able to devote those 4*N hours to someone to help him/her get started and work on nice things. That's a waste, because these janitoring tasks make you learn a lot of things in no time. But I don't want to betray the trust of people willing to help, as long as I am able to help them get started until they can fly by themselves, by not being there enough time in the beginning. Working on the kernel is not something you can do with a ``1 hour every week or every month'' rate. You need to dive for a longer time, especially at the beginning, because there are many things to get acquainted with. That's when you need as much support as possible. And that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide. Miod I had a similar problem at work. After investing a lot of time training a new engineer to accomplish [database, servers, network] administration tasks, taking his/her hand, guiding him/her through the steps I want him/her to make things the-way-I-want-it... they leave. And I have to start all over again with the next engineer. I was tired of that. The last time, I made her write the documentation in Docbook, foolproof guides, for the next engineer. Problem solved, more or less. Marc Espie is so good at that for example. Anybody with basic skills and enough interest can port software to OpenBSD. My point is that maybe instead of tutoring a person, time is better used writing documentation or guidelines about where to start, what steps to follow and how to do things the-way-you-want. These documents will reach more people and have more impact than tutoring someone. I would bring art@ to the discussion too, who has been reluctant to tutoring people but that has a lot of knowledge that would be a pitty that he gets hit by a truck before sharing some! ;-) Or probably the documentation of the kernel itself as a project would help. [Recalling...] which was Espie's idea sometime ago. Well Karel, you may start with this. Just my 20 centavos. -- Gerardo Santana
Re: OpenBSD kernel janitors
On 30.10-20:26, Miod Vallat wrote: [ ... ] That's when you need as much support as possible. And that's the kind of support I, as an individual, can not provide. i believe the task list itself would be positive , even if not much happens around it. they are good for the community as well as the codebase. you are not commiting yourself to mentoring and tutoring every idiot who wants a crack at the kernel, you're simply saying, look if you think you're good enough to do the work, here are some things that i know, from my experience, need done. the learning and effort comes from interested parties. this sort of delegation does work in other projects, perhaps if we have a good list we can figure out how to make it work here too. -- t t w
