Re: dealing with "smart quotes" and other troublesome chars in mutt

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Feb 16, 2016 at 10:16:45AM +0100, Louis-David Mitterrand wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> How do you guys deal with characters that appear as ??? in mutt
> messages, often sent by Apple Mail users?
> 
> For instance one of these chars is apparently the "smart quote"
> appearing as =E2=80=9D or =E2=80=99 when (e)diting the message.
> 
> FWIW my locale is en_IE@euro

I have these in my .muttrc

set assumed_charset=windows-1252
charset-hook ^us-ascii$   windows-1252
charset-hook ^iso-8859-1$ windows-1252
charset-hook ^unknown-8bit$ windows-1252
charset-hook ^x-user-defined$   windows-1252


I don't know what they do or if they'll help you, but it can't hurt to
try. :)

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: Timeout surpassed, mailbox closed on sync

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 03:01:09PM -0500, Nathan Lee wrote:
> Greetings. This is my first post on the list, and I'm new to Mutt.
> I've searched the mailing list, and didn't see anything quite like
> this. Maybe someone can tell what's happening.

Just as an aside, you might want to set the textwidth variable or equiv
your editor.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: How does Ian do the "name >" quoting?

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 11:34:17PM -0500, Xu Wang wrote:
> Sometimes I observe that Ian quotes emails such as:
> 
> Michael> its own MTA. The one at Apptix is the obvious, but Apptix's
> Michael> SMTP service is crypted and authenticated, and I haven't found
> Michael> a way to make mutt log in as me.
> 
> Is this a setting in mutt or does he do that manually? What is the
> name of that type of quoting?

It is very annoying. Please don't consider it.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: tweak subject with regex before display

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 11:23:31AM -0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> On 2015-12-29 17:37 +0100, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> 
> > Our companys "virus" check adds really annoying "*** unchecked ***" to 
> > every encrypted mails subject.
> > 
> > Is there a way to suppress certain parts of a subject before displaying
> > in the folder view?
> > 
> > To my mind comes also mailinglist tags to suppress.
> 
> Please check this thread:
> 
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.mail.mutt.user/43136/
> 
> tl;dr

Is it really that long that you didn't read it? (I think people abuse
tl;dr.)

:)

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: Is there a tool I can use to convert a whole email to webpage or something alike?

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Nov 15, 2015 at 10:09:48PM -0800, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Rule 420: All persons more than eight miles high to leave the court.

Hmmm, so how would they get in there in the first place?

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: abook to lbdb (OT?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:06:34PM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
> * Peter P.  [10-15-15 18:28]:
> > * Patrick Shanahan  [2015-10-15 18:04]:
> > > * Peter P.  [10-15-15 16:30]:
> > > > Hi list,
> > > > 
> > > > please excuse me if this is slightly offtopic, nevertheless this seems a
> > > > propoer community to ask.
> > > > 
> > > > Does anyone know if/how I can export an abook data file to a format that
> > > > can be merged with lbdb's m_inmail.list file?
> > > 
> > > lbdb can read abook, /usr/lib64/lbdb/m_abook
> > > 
> > > I believe if configured that it will automatically include abook addresses
> > > and will provide them when queried.
> > 
> > Thank you, this is what I am already doing successfully. I would just
> > like to uninstall abook altogether (I am not using it really) and rely
> > only on lbdb, hence I would like to import/merge abook's datafile into
> > ~/.lbdb/m_inmail.list
> 
> lbdbq > m_inmail.list.new
> 
> cat m_inmail.list > m_inmail.list.new

Shouldn't that be:
cat m_inmail.list >> m_inmail.list.new

otherwise it just overwrites previous output of previous instruction?

> sort m_inmail.list.new | sort | uniq > m_inmail.list.new2
> 
> inspect m_inmail.list.new2
> 
> If satisfied, mv m_inmail.list m_inmail.list.old
>   mv m_inmail.list.new2 m_inmail.list
> 
> When happy with new list, rm m_inmail.list.old

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: format=flowed (was: If List Reply Fails, Fall Back to Group Reply or Reply)

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Sep 07, 2015 at 12:31:58AM -0400, Grady Martin wrote:
> On 2015年09月07日 13時39分, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> >Hmm. I was going to complain about your reflow_*
> >settings (even though the defaults are to reflow
> >at 78 columns), but I see that they are not
> >properly obeyed for me either. Grady's message
> >wraps at my terminal width, even though I have
> >just set reflow_wrap to 40 as a test.
> 
> The reflow_wrap setting does not seem to affect messages for me, either, 
> despite reflow_text being set.  This could be a problem, as the ideal display 
> width of lines is a matter of personal opinion, and people's opinions differ. 
>  Personally, I do not like wasted screen space and have set reflow_wrap to 0. 
>  The problem is that Patrick, for example, would probably like a reflow_wrap 
> value of 80 and yet setting it to 80 does nothing.
> 
> In the spirit of experimentation...
> 
> On 2015年09月07日 13時39分, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> >Hmm. I was going to complain about your reflow_* settings (even though the 
> >defaults are to reflow at 78 columns), but I see that they are not properly 
> >obeyed for me either. Grady's message wraps at my terminal width, even 
> >though I have just set reflow_wrap to 40 as a test.
> 

I certainly know which is easier to read. If it's hard to read most
people don't bother, and if you are looking for help then that can be
very problematic. Of course, it's the OP's choice how they format their
mail.

-- 
"If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X

Re: more than one FCC possible?

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 11:53:40PM -0400, Xu Wang wrote:
 Dear all,
 
 My goal is to get the message ID from a message I just sent. One way I
 am thinking of doing this is copying a message to a temporary file
 (via FCC) and then getting its message ID with a script. Is this
 possible?

You could use formail. Have a google on 'extract Message-ID'

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: saving messages to files/permissions?

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 12:25:51PM +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Thursday, June 18, 2015 a las 10:14:54PM +1200, Chris Bannister 
 escribió:
 
  On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:31:01AM +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
   El día Monday, June 15, 2015 a las 07:43:18AM +1200, Chris Bannister 
   escribió:
  
  Huh?
  
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 09:59:40PM -0700, Tom Fowle wrote:
 Greetings all,
 Not sure if this may be a debian problem but
 
 I often save individual incomming emails in seperate files in my home
 directory with the mutt s command.
 
 In any session, the first time I save to a particular file it goes 
 fine.
 
 However if I try to save another message to the same file, I get
 Permission denied.
  
  I never wrote any of the above! Please be careful with your
  atrributions/snipping.
  
   To the OP: Can you please post here:
   
   $ ls -ld .
   $ ls -l file-to-save-in
   $ id
 
 I do not understand, what you mean. I just use one of the mails from the
 list and wrote below(!) the text starting with To the OP...

Ahh, OK. in that case, sorry about that, but seeing my name at the top
of the attributions and not seeing any of the text I remember writing in
the email prompted my reaction, and is also why I added the 'snipping'
proviso.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: saving messages to files/permissions?

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:31:01AM +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Monday, June 15, 2015 a las 07:43:18AM +1200, Chris Bannister escribió:

Huh?

  On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 09:59:40PM -0700, Tom Fowle wrote:
   Greetings all,
   Not sure if this may be a debian problem but
   
   I often save individual incomming emails in seperate files in my home
   directory with the mutt s command.
   
   In any session, the first time I save to a particular file it goes fine.
   
   However if I try to save another message to the same file, I get
   Permission denied.

I never wrote any of the above! Please be careful with your
atrributions/snipping.

 To the OP: Can you please post here:
 
 $ ls -ld .
 $ ls -l file-to-save-in
 $ id

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: saving messages to files/permissions?

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 09:59:40PM -0700, Tom Fowle wrote:
 Greetings all,
 Not sure if this may be a debian problem but
 
 I often save individual incomming emails in seperate files in my home
 directory with the mutt s command.
 
 In any session, the first time I save to a particular file it goes fine.
 
 However if I try to save another message to the same file, I get
 Permission denied.

I run Debian, and I don't have that problem so I can validate that it is
not a Debian problem.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: showing mails with attachment in index

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 11:26:10AM -0500, Will Fiveash wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 09, 2015 at 02:59:02PM +0200, Orm Finnendahl wrote:
  Hi,
  
   is there an option in mutt to display some indicators in the leftmost
  column in the index for mails with attachments or is there a way to
  filter out mails without attachment? I would prefer this indicator to
  only indicate real attachments and not simple multipart text+html
  mails containing more or less the same content. I often have to search
  my mail directories for a certain attachment and this would simplify
  and speed up this process tremendously.
  
  Is there a built in solution for this or has anybody done something
  like a filtering script?
 
 Related to your request I have an index macro which limits the display
 of mail to those messages that contain an attachment:
 
 macro index _a limit~h '\^content-type: +multipart/'\n Display mail 
 w/attachments

Does that display simple multipart text+html attachments? The paragraph
above says he only wants to display mails with real attachments.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: List headers and List Reply [Was: Sent attached doc from Libreoffice]

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 02:28:29PM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
 On 2015-05-28 14:38 -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
 
 Derek Come on Patrick, you are not new here...  You know full well that
 Derek most mailer software does not have any list-reply function; mutt
 Derek is a rare exception, and despite this being a mutt-related list,
 Derek not the only mailer people use here.  If by now you still can't
 Derek handle people posting both to mailing lists and to you directly
 Derek at the same time, perhaps you should stop subscribing to mailing
 Derek lists...
 
 Note also that this list is slightly substandard in that there is no
 List-ID header.  There may be software out there that uses that header
 to determine if a message is a list message in the first place.

Using the non standard prompt makes your messages difficult to read,
Ian. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: List headers and List Reply [Was: Sent attached doc from Libreoffice]

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 11:41:49AM +0200, John Niendorf wrote:
 
 Derek Come on Patrick, you are not new here...  You know full well that
 Derek most mailer software does not have any list-reply function; mutt
 Derek is a rare exception, and despite this being a mutt-related list,
 Derek not the only mailer people use here.  If by now you still can't
 Derek handle people posting both to mailing lists and to you directly
 Derek at the same time, perhaps you should stop subscribing to mailing
 Derek lists...
 
 Exactly - I've been on this list for a few years.  It seems that Patrick
 wakes up in a bad mood EVERY day.

Actually, most lists I'm subscribed to state in the mailing list policy
that personal copies are only acceptable if the OP *asks* to be CC'd. If
there is no list reply function then it is up to the poster to edit the
headers to conform to policy.

Alas, it seems that if you append 'Sent from my iPhone' then you are
excused. :(

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: List headers and List Reply [Was: Sent attached doc from Libreoffice]

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 03:15:57PM +0200, Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El domingo, 31 de mayo de 2015 14:45:36 (CEST), Matthias Apitz escribió:
 
 
 I do have sent any mail from an iPhone.
 
 I dont have sent, was what I wanted write :-)
 
 
 -- 
 Sent from my Ubuntu phone
 http://www.unixarea.de/


:-D

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: mutt's counterpart feature to gmail's archive?

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 11:01:03PM +0200, Heinz Diehl wrote:

[...]

 In .muttrc, I have this:
 
 macro generic F2 shell-escapemairix  Search
 macro index F3 change-folder=.Searchenter Load the search results
 macro pager F3 change-folder=.Searchenter Load the search results

I believe those last two lines can be replaced with:
macro index,pager F3 change-folder=.Searchenter Load the search 
results



-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Remove my alias emails from CC lists.

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Apr 08, 2015 at 11:13:11AM -0500, David Champion wrote:
 * On 08 Apr 2015, David Haguenauer wrote: 
  Hi Brandon,
  
  * Brandon Amos ba...@cs.cmu.edu, 2015-04-08 09:33:46 Wed:
   I forward many email accounts to a primary email account.
   When I group-reply to emails sent to my non-primary account,
   the other account is (reasonably) added to the CC list.
   
   Is there a way to ignore a set of emails when I group-reply
   so my aliases aren't added to the CC list?
  
  You can use the `alternates' command to tell Mutt about e-mail
  addresses that are yours. Once this is done, group-reply should
  properly avoid sending to your addresses.
 
 In conjunction with alternates, you may also be interested in
 reverse_name.  (I forward dozens of addresses to one mailbox, and find
 this immensely useful.)
 
 3.223. reverse_name
 
 Type: boolean
 Default: no
 
 It may sometimes arrive that you receive mail to a certain machine

That doesn't parse very well. Is Sometimes you may receive mail at a
certain computer ... the intended meaning?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Flashing error messages?

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 08:17:12PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
 On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 10:57:32PM +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote:
  
  Run mutt in a xterm with logging enabled or, as a last, under
  strace/truss to catch the messages.
 
 Hmmm. Is it possible to run mutt with
 
 mutt 2 myerrorlog
 
 ?


What happened when you tried it?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: address book?

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Nov 11, 2014 at 04:05:49PM -0600, Russell Harris wrote:
 On Tue, November 11, 2014 7:03 am, Chris Bannister wrote:
  On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 08:23:57AM -0600, Russell Harris wrote:
 
  On Mon, November 10, 2014 7:34 am, DaleKelly wrote:
 
  how can I configure/maintain an address book?
 
  But if you have a high volume of email and many addresses, you may need
  to utilize a database package to manage the address book.
 
  Do you mean something like abook or lbdb?
  I would be interested to know what else there is.
 
 I had in mind The Little Brother's Database (lbdb), but it has been
 several years since I considered using a database, so I do not know what
 is available today.

Ah, OK.

 A search on mutt address book reveals at least three data bases which
 interface directly with Mutt.  And with the aid of a script, it may be
 possible to use a stand-alone database such as Postgress.

Well, I suppose anything's possible with a script, but thanks for your
answer anyway.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: address book?

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 08:23:57AM -0600, Russell Harris wrote:
 On Mon, November 10, 2014 7:34 am, DaleKelly wrote:
  how can I configure/maintain an address book?
 
 But if you have a high volume of email and many addresses, you may need to
 utilize a database package to manage the address book.

Do you mean something like abook or lbdb?
I would be interested to know what else there is.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: POP? (read some docs first)

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 06:29:12PM -0500, DaleKelly wrote:
 On 11/10/2014 05:58 PM, DaleKelly wrote:
 Login failed. Command USER is not supported by server.
 
 APOP authentication failed.
 proceeds the above error
 
 although it works!!!
 
 don't like errors, any help appreciated much
 
 I'll write a full HOWTO on Ubuntu Mutt on my website below and post it to
 the mailing list and usenet group

Please don't bother. Just post the link to it if you feel you must.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: address book?

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 09:24:45AM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
 * DaleKelly d...@dalekelly.org [11-10-14 09:22]:
  On 11/10/2014 08:55 AM, John Niendorf wrote:
  Check out abook in the repository.
  
[...]
  already installed, how do I interface it with mutt?
 
 Honestly, from a *long* time linux user...
 
 man abook

JFTR, in my Debian system I have nothing in my .muttrc about abook, 
which made me curious. (I couldn't remember setting it up.)

Nor in /etc/Muttrc ... but the last line in /etc/Muttrc has:

source /usr/lib/mutt/source-muttrc.d|

/usr/lib/mutt/source-muttrc.d has:

-8- ---8-
#!/bin/sh -e

for rc in /etc/Muttrc.d/*.rc; do
test -r $rc  echo source \$rc\
done

-8- ---8-

root@tal:~# ls -al /etc/Muttrc.d
total 40
drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  4096 Sep  8 22:35 .
drwxr-xr-x 118 root root 12288 Nov 12 00:35 ..
-rw-r--r--   1 root root79 Jul  9  2011 abook.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root   410 Jan 15  2011 charset.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root   612 Jan 15  2011 colors.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root   427 May  9  2011 compressed-folders.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root  1406 Jan 15  2011 gpg.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root  3648 Jan 15  2011 smime.rc


All nice and tidy. :)

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: now POP ...

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Nov 10, 2014 at 04:24:33AM -0600, Russell Harris wrote:
 On Sun, November 9, 2014 11:36 pm, DaleKelly wrote:
  On 11/10/2014 12:20 AM, Francesco Ariis wrote:
 
  On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 11:54:19PM -0500, DaleKelly wrote:
  I use getmail [1] to obtain what you wrote above. Sample pop3
  configuration for getmail just in case you are interested:
 
  thanks, I'll archive this in case I can't get the POP in mutt to work,
  especially want to leave a copy of the messages on the server
 
 That is the function of the delete command; simply specify delete=false'.
 
 Getmail is a marvelous package which provides excellent control, such as
 limiting the number of messages downloaded in a single session.  And
 getmail can log each transaction (which is to say, each message
 downloaded).  Also, getmail can pass downloaded messages to maildrop for
 sorting.

As does fetchmail. :)

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Group replying: set To: instead of Cc:

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 06:01:24PM +0200, Elias Diem wrote:
 Hi Chris
 
 On 2014-10-14,  Chris Bannister wrote:
 
  try CTRL-L
  Does it do what you want?
 
 Hmmm. From the manual, CTRL-L is used to refresh the screen. 
 What do I miss here?

Oooops, sorry, I meant shift-l, i.e: L

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Group replying: set To: instead of Cc:

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 07:20:36PM +0200, Elias Diem wrote:
 Hi all
 
 I often group reply to messages. I'd like to set the To: 
 field with the reply addresses instead of the Cc: field. Is 
 this possible? I didn't find anything on the list archive.

try CTRL-L
Does it do what you want?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 04:33:19PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
 You're focused on ONE MINISCULE ASPECT of the problem, which is a
 negligible fraction of the total.  As such, your points don't have any
 real impact on the discussion.  Come back when you're:
 
  - Not ever getting your food from grocery stores/restaurants, AND
  - Building everything you use from parts, AND
  - Fabricating all of those parts from raw resources, AND
  - Doing your own taxes, AND
  - Building your home yourself from materials, AND
  - Doing all home maintenance/upgrades yourself, AND
  - Meeting all your healthcare needs without doctors, AND
  - providing your own means of transportation as above, AND
  - Acting in your own films, filmed with cameras you built yourself, AND
  - ...  (so many other things that we do regularly)

Wow!  Of course, no man is an island etc. etc.

I was only responding to the misleading remark:

 ... and without specialization it does not work, period.
That's why you don't build your own home, grow/raise/kill your own food
... 

It is being done by many people. 

 Get the point yet?  You simply can't do all that stuff yourself.

Of course not. 

 Specialization is what makes virtually every aspect of modern society
 possible.

I'm not disagreeing with you here. :)  You could argue, that there has
always been specialisation --- there will always be *something* you need
from a specialist. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 12:24:31PM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
 The world has become complicated, and without specialization it does
 not work, period.  That's why you don't build your own home,
 grow/raise/kill your own food ...

That sounds like corporate propaganda to me - i.e. they don't want you
to. But believe me it is possible and doable.

Just a quick example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Cottage

Don't let the food¹ companies pull the wool over your ears.

¹ I use the term 'food' very loosely here. 

It's *so* easy to grow your own vegetables.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes?

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 04:19:12PM -0400, Mark Filipak wrote:
 How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes? Have you found that having tens
 of thousands of messages in a single box is dangerous?

No, just really slow!

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 11:05:50AM -0500, Derek Martin wrote:
 On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 07:09:22PM +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
  It's *so* easy to grow your own vegetables.
 
 No one said it was hard... most of the things you pay someone else to
 do aren't (though some definitely are).  

Well, if you can afford your own Gardener all the better. 

 The complexity comes from the
 sheer number of things, which if you had to do each one yourself, from
 scratch, and including learning how to do them, would be overwhelming.
 There simply isn't enough time in the day for you to do it all
 yourself.  Even things that are easy to do take time to learn how.

Some people actually do it as a hobby, and you make it sound so much
harder than it really is. The real problem is having the land, but a
surprising amount can still be grown in window boxes or 'grow boxes'.

 Again, that's unless you choose to live an extremely simple life, and
 not participate in modern society.  Which you can do... most people
 just wouldn't ever chose that.

I would consider ordering take aways/fast food the 'simple' life.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes?

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 10:23:03AM -0500, David Champion wrote:
 * On 19 Sep 2014, Chris Bannister wrote: 
  On Thu, Sep 18, 2014 at 04:19:12PM -0400, Mark Filipak wrote:
   How is mutt with multi-mega-byte mboxes? Have you found that having tens
   of thousands of messages in a single box is dangerous?
  
  No, just really slow!
 
 I don't find it slow at all, once the mailbox is loaded.  Is that what
 you mean or is there an ongoing performance problem?

Yes, takes a while to load 4k messages on this old laptop, but I don't
let it get to me. :) 
No, there is no 'apparent' ongoing performance problem.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Format flowed equals no space in depth 1

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 03:36:26PM -0400, Patrice Levesque wrote:
 roads; red lights, yield signs, school buses and all.

Please, what is a yield sign? Is that what the rest of the world would
call a stop sign, or a give way sign?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: mail box vanished

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 10:40:05AM +0200, Ulrich Lauther wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 01, 2014 at 10:33:27AM +0200, Ulrich Lauther wrote:
  
  Is there a way to mark - accidentally - all messages as read?
 
 I should have said:
 
 Is there a way to mark - accidentally - all messages as read or deleted?

Not sure what *you* mean by accidentally, but pressing the wrong
key(s) is one way. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Correct syntax of send hook

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 04:52:22PM +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
 On 12.05.14 21:28, Mark Filipak wrote:
  I listen to the BBC almost all the time. I think the hosts butcher
  English as thoroughly as the average American. 
 
 True, the modern BBC's English on its website is egregious, with
 adjectives morphing to nouns, as in The abducted Nigeria girls ...,
 grating like fingernails on a blackboard. (Any pretence that it is a
 special newspaper language (Headline-ish) is entirely unconvincing when
 the website does have room for the extra 'n'.) Mind you, our Aussie ABC,
 once as pukka as the BBC of yore, also leaves a lot to be desired.
 
 Apropos quotes, have I lobbed here from a parallel universe, or did we
 in the distant past quote film titles and similar text strings, e.g.
 One flew over the cuckoo's nest? Now they're just capitalised, and so
 run into preceding and following capitalisations, resulting in
 ambiguity.

Yes! Now that you mention it, I've noticed that too. Even a different
font would be good, italic or something. 

 The American dialect is not too hard to understand if a few translations
 are kept in mind. E.g.
 
Ah-loo-me-numb = Aluminium  (Am. spell. = Aluminum, I kid you not.)

Aluminium is a tricky one.
http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2008/06/aluminum-vs-aluminium.html

sodder = solder (But how is flux then pronounced?)
offov  = from   (Maybe it comes from Russian?)

You forgot 'eggs it' = exit  :) 
and'artic'= arctic

 Erik
 (Scurrying for cover)

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Correct syntax of send hook

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 08:39:14AM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
 * Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz [05-13-14 05:35]:
  [...]
  You forgot 'eggs it' = exit  :) 
  and'artic'= arctic
  
   Erik
   (Scurrying for cover)
 
 Well, I still close the hood of my automobile/truck and put the bonnet

http://www.lovealwaysliv.com/2014/01/red-riding-hood-coat.html

 on my girl.  We will ignore spanner for the moment.  :^)

:-)

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Correct syntax of send hook

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 01:48:48PM +0200, Suvayu Ali wrote:
 On Mon, May 12, 2014 at 01:12:54AM -0400, Mark Filipak wrote:
  On 2014/5/11 11:08 PM, Chris Bannister wrote:
  -snip-
   More worrying are the strange ammendments that American English is
   imposing (or has imposed) on us people who speak the proper English!
  
  I'm sorry, but as an American I have to come out of lurk mode for this...
  
  What you tried to write, Chris, refers to those who speak in the
  nominative case. The phrase at the end of your sentence should therefore
  begin we, not us. May I suggest we who speak proper English!
  instead of us people who speak the proper English!
 
 Maybe all that is missing is a comma?
 
   .. imposing (or has imposed) on us, people who speak the proper
   English!

 ;)

That part was meant as bit of a joke. I thought about it when I wrote it
and had visions of Ronnie Barker and Ronnie Corbett talking over a cup
of tea. :)

Although, I still wonder why American English *HAS* to be different! The
phrase only in America! springs to mind here.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Correct syntax of send hook

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 07:54:16AM -0400, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
 * Guy Gold g...@merl.com [05-11-14 07:38]:
  On Sat,May 10 06:49:PM, Derek Martin wrote:
   Mostly I reply here due to a curiosity:  Why is 'messed' in single
   quotes here?  I see people do this increasingly often, and I don't get
   why.
  
  Are you implying that  the single quotes should have been
  escaped then ? ;)
 
 Iiuc, the comment pertains to the comment rather than the syntax of
 send hook, ie: correct usage of the English written word.

I believe he understood that and was making a joke, i.e. in English
should the single quotes be escaped then.

At least I laughed. :)

More worrying are the strange ammendments that American English is
imposing (or has imposed) on us people who speak the proper English!

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Using maildir

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 02:57:27PM +0100, Tom Furie wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 04:00:07AM +0100, David Woodfall wrote:
  I've just set up dovecot/procmail on a debian VPS and when using mutt
  with maildir, as I navigate around, I see the new/ cur/ tmp/ folders
  and inside the actual file names of the mail.
  
  On my home box I connect locally to the imap server so I don't see
  this, but is there a better way of viewing maildir without seeing
  these folders and just seeing mail as normal?
 
 set mbox_type=maildir should let mutt know it's looking at a maildir
 structure.

AFAIU, that setting, creates a maildir structure when creating a new
mailbox to save to.

It can see mbox or maildir structures regardless of that setting.

Please enlighten me if I am wrong.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: I how to customize the help line on top

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:48:02AM +0100, Maurice McCarthy wrote:
 OK I did an experiment and it worked. When you open mutt it shows the
 index view and that displays the default bindings that Michael Kaiser
 asked about. If we change the default bindings in /etc/Muttrc or
 ~/.muttrc then the top line should alter as requested.
 
 I only have access to a Windows 7 pc at the moment so I got a copy of
 win32mutt (i.e. mutt-1.4) and put these two commands at the bottom of
 /etc/Muttrc
 
 bind index x quit
 bind index q help
 
 Now on launching mutt the top of line of the display shows:
 x:Quit d:Del 
 
 The first bind command does not work on its own as that leaves q still
 functioning correctly. Now I feel like a smart-alec.

Unfortunately, that is still not what is being asked. :)  For example,
could you put the 'compose mail' command in the menu bar and show the
binding?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: displaying the outbox

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Apr 09, 2014 at 01:09:16PM +0200, Andre Klärner wrote:
 On Tue 08.04.2014 19:53:02, Ulrich Lauther wrote:
  So, where am I supposed to read the manual?
 
 Maybe try the manual that came with your distribution (Debian:
 /usr/share/doc/mutt/manual.txt.gz) or at least the manual for the mutt version

Also just pressing the F1 key in mutt should bring up the manual.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Questions from a newbie

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 07:12:53AM +0100, alb...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi
 
 I have a few basic questions about mutt:
 
 1) does mutt support any kind of scripting for its API? if so, what
 scripting languages can be used?
 2) is it possible to define custom actions for selected emails (e.g.
 getting some external program/script to process an email by invoking a
 script which will do the job)?
 3) does mutt support BiDi and right-to-left languages?
 4) are mutt's keybindings easily customizable?

http://www.mutt.org/doc/manual/

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Distinguishing Cc'd e-mail from To'd email

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 05:49:55PM +0800, Chris Down wrote:
 I got an interesting mail from Nikola Petrov off-list saying that his
 Mutt configuration does not interpret ~p as including Cc'd mails.

Wouldn't it be better to keep the mails on list? Could get confusing
otherwise.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Distinguishing Cc'd e-mail from To'd email

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 12:03:17AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 10, 2014 at 05:49:55PM +0800, Chris Down wrote:
  I got an interesting mail from Nikola Petrov off-list saying that his
  Mutt configuration does not interpret ~p as including Cc'd mails.
 
 Wouldn't it be better to keep the mails on list? Could get confusing
 otherwise.

In my .muttrc I have:

set to_chars= +TCF

See table 2.6 in the documentation.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Distinguishing Cc'd e-mail from To'd email

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 03:03:33AM +0800, Chris Down wrote:
 On 2014-02-11 00:29:17 +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
  In my .muttrc I have:
  
  set to_chars= +TCF
  
  See table 2.6 in the documentation.
 
 How does this affect the behaviour of ~p? As far as I can tell, this
 only appears to have to do with what is displayed in the status
 indicator.

I don't know what this has to to with ~p, I'm only responding to the
subject with how I distinguish CC'd and To'd mail.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: defining a shortcut to save to a mailbox

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Feb 08, 2014 at 11:05:34AM +, John wrote:
 Hello list,
 
 I'd like to define numeric zero in mutt to have mutt save the selected
 message to a mailbox I've called spam-missed.
 
 How does one do this? I've read save-hook and macro in the manual but
 neither seems to be able to do exactly what I want. Basically, when I'm
 in the pager either with the message list displayed ...

FYI, that is not pager view but index view.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: folder-hook for sending to lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Feb 07, 2014 at 05:08:17PM -0500, glphvgacs wrote:
 On Wed, Feb 05, 2014 at 04:23:31PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
  On Mon, Feb 03, 2014 at 11:03:36AM -0500, glphvgacs wrote:
   and so i get:
   To: mutt-users@mutt.org, ycm-us...@googlegroups.com
   
   i don't know if there is a way to un-hook a hook when one leaves a folder,
   or rather when a pattern for a hook stops to evaluate TRUE.
   
   another guess, this might have something to do with the fact that
   there is no List-id: in mutt-users's headers (wonder why?)
  
  I have an idea that it uses the List-Post: tag.
 
 true, but why? i mean can i set list-reply to look for List-Post in the
 header then?

Not sure what you mean here. I was meaning that if the List-id: tag is
there but the List-Post: tag is missing then list-reply doesn't work.

This is from memory, I don't know what the current situation is.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: folder-hook for sending to lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Feb 03, 2014 at 11:03:36AM -0500, glphvgacs wrote:
 and so i get:
 To: mutt-users@mutt.org, ycm-us...@googlegroups.com
 
 i don't know if there is a way to un-hook a hook when one leaves a folder,
 or rather when a pattern for a hook stops to evaluate TRUE.
 
 another guess, this might have something to do with the fact that
 there is no List-id: in mutt-users's headers (wonder why?)

I have an idea that it uses the List-Post: tag.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: unbind (all) key bindings

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 01:41:55PM +, Martin Orwin wrote:
 I understand your concerns about this but I don't think you'll find it a 
 problem in the long run.  I occasionally hit the wrong key and there is 
 always a way of undoing what I've done (aside from saying 'no' when Mutt 
 actually asks me if I really want to do something, which personally I like).  
 Shift-W let's me unclear a flag I've accidentally set and ctrl-c ('do you 
 want to exit mutt?') gets me out of any other situation (just remember to 
 type n(o) when it asks).  There will be other more sophisticated ways of 
 getting out of certain situations, but for me these two work and are enough.  
 As to all the other key-bound functions, it doesn't matter that you don't use 
 them.  It's a big tool box and over the time I've used Mutt I've learned to 
 use some of the tools when I've felt the need to do something (limit patterns 
 for example). I think you might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater 
 if you disable all the keybindings as then you may need to work out how to 
 reinstate some function or other when you feel the need to use it.
 
 I'd say stick with Mutt as it is, I did, and in a few weeks time I think 
 you'll find that the keybinding thing is a non-issue.  Just my thoughts. 
 Whatever you choose to do, once you get used to it, it's the best email 
 client out there IMHO (apart from when I get those pesky complex html 
 messages and have to use the Gmail web interface!).

I notice you are using mutt as the MUA. How did you manage to screw up
this post so badly?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: unbind (all) key bindings

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 10:09:37AM +0100, Martin Vegter wrote:
 
 I have found the following in the manual:
 
 bindindex   j   noop
 bindindex   k   noop
 
 the problem with this approach is, that I have to unbind every
 single key-binding explicitly.

It makes no sense to unbind them all, so in reality it is not a
problem.

 I was wondering whether there is a better solution

I'm wondering how you are actually going to use mutt at all.
Is the problem you are trying to solve a real one? Have you been bitten
by it yourself? 

You could set the quadoption to ask-yes or ask-no (depending on the
action) so that a clumsy key press will  bring up the dreaded Are you
sure you really want to do what you have just asked me to do? dialog. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: mutt: new user

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 07:12:59PM +0100, Martin Vegter wrote:
 Dear list,
 
 I have just installed mutt, and I am little bit confused. I can see
 my received emails, but I am not able to switch to my sent emails
 folder. Is this the way mutt is supposed to work (only reading
 received emails)?

You can set the sent directory. I think there is a default /~/sent(?)
Have a look in the documentation. ... ahh ... for the 'set record'
command.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Account-hooks do not work as expected

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 10:18:10PM +0100, Niels Kobschaetzki wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I am relatively new to mutt but was able to set up some account-hooks.
 I have three accounts A, B and C and when I start mutt everything
 works as expected.  I start in account A and when I want to change
 folders or want to copy mails I see the folders of account A. When I
 send mail it is send from account A.  Now I switch to account B. And
 everything works for account B, the same for account C. And then I
 switch back to account A and the following problems occur: When I want
 to change folders, I see the folders of the last account I was in (in
 this example account C), when I write a mail the From and
 SMTP-settings are those from the last account I was in.
 
 When I switch to account B or C everything works as expected. The
 problems happen only with account A (which is also my main-account).
 After a restart of mutt everything works fine, until I changed from
 account A to another one. Since the config for B and C are copied
 completely from A and then changed the account-specific-settings, I
 have no idea where to look what the problem could be.

Unless someone has a crystal ball, neither have we.
IOW, we need to see the code!

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: mutt: new user

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 01:59:04PM -0600, rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:
 so the payback is almost immediate.  In terms of user efficiency, the
 only MUA which is competitive to Mutt is Gnus.  (I view Gnus as almost
 a religion; it is a marvelous and rewarding system, but it has a steep
 learning curve.)

Eeeek!!! That means you have to install that other OS, emacs! :(

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

ctrl-g doesn't work when no is chosen on a reply-to.

[Chris Bannister]

Hi,

I have noticed that when pressing 'r' on a message where the reply-to is
set, that if you choose 'n' to each option - ctrl-g doesn't work and
pressing 'n' asks what you want to search for.

It is easy to demonstrate but not so easy to explain.

If you need any further info, please ask.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Mutt Tips / Guide

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 03:55:49PM -0700, Josef Bailey wrote:
 On 09/21, Robert Holtzman wrote:
  
  http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
  
  -- 
  Bob Holtzman
 
 Thanks for the reply
 
 Thanks for the link and that littearlly didn't help me out .. so i don't know 
 why you even put it in here

It is mean't to help US¹ out!!!  Did you read it?
I'm flabergasted! That is the first time I've seen such a response. :(


¹ Yep, I remember being told to read that myself.
You *WILL* be ignored by people who can help you if you don't show
indications that you have tried to figure it out yourself.
That document explains it better than I can.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Encrypting postponed messages

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Sep 06, 2013 at 11:05:16AM -0500, Dale Raby wrote:
 If it's sensitive
  enough to be encrypted outgoing, it's sensitive enough to be
  encrypted on disk... even if you haven't actually sent it yet.
  
 
 Well, its easy enough to encrypt the whole disk with modern OS's, so
 if the message is on your machine it could be made pretty secure with
 no real extra effort beyond setting it up initially for an encrypted
 disk.  Then they would have to deal with physical security to get the
 message, i.e.: disarm the operator and hold a gun to his head to get
 the pass phrase.  As only an idiot would actually give the correct
 pass phrase (because such an assailant would not want any inconvenient
 loose ends left alive after the data theft), it would be pretty darn
 secure.

A contempt of court charge is no laughing matter either.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Encrypting postponed messages

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Sep 08, 2013 at 06:08:04PM +0100, Mick wrote:
 Yep, I had more than once, on machine(s) with no vim.  I've never managed to 
 learn how to use emacs, but as they say it's never tool late to learn to play 
 the piano!  :p

It's more like an organ, and yes you do need the whole Cathedral. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Encrypting postponed messages

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Sep 04, 2013 at 05:30:16PM +0100, Óscar Pereira wrote:
 Dear all,
 
 The subject seems pretty self-explanatory. Use case, you're writing
 an email, which is already marked as to be sent encrypted, but you
 have to postpone it. In the meantime offlineimap runs and syncs you
 mailboxes, and thus your mail which is to be sent encrypted ends up
 in (say) Gmail's remote folder -- UNencrypted.

This seems like an offlineimap issue, rather than anything to do with
mutt.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: The etiquette of RTFM (Re: I have forgotten ...)

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 09:03:32PM +1000, Erik Christiansen wrote:
 On 21.06.13 10:13, Rado Q wrote:
  But not to make one side happy and reject the other, how about this:
  we get 2 lists, one for the basicsimple stuff (mutt-users), the other
  for advanced (mutt-adventures). Have some moderators sitting on
  the basic- line forwarding the advanced stuff (users) to the other list.
   Would you volunteer?
 
 It isn't always necessary to make a simple matter complicated. Most
 humans learn after a while how to identify a KLB, and anyway, netiquette

KLB ?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Mutt slow to respond?

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 06:43:25AM +0100, Nigel Green wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I've used Mutt for a while now and never had any issues with
 performance, but my latest install feels really laggy. On an index
 screen there's a gap of half a second or so between hitting a key and
 the cursor moving, which means I've had loads of trouble with
 selecting messages, etc.
 
 My latest install is on a Crunchbang GNU/Linux system, running Mutt
 1.5.21.

Start it without the config file and see if it improves.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: opening +[Gmail]/All Mail is slowish

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 11:19:07AM +0200, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
 Purely just out of curiosity, why would you need to keep such a high
 number of email? Is this something quite common (at risk of sounding a
 bit stupid)? I just can't imagine ever keeping that much email in my
 account.
 
 My mailbox is memory with a built-in search function.
 
 I'll never know upfront what thing I forget.
 Thus I keep all emails that aren't spam.

http://gtdfh.branchable.com/

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Long urls - update

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 10:00:58PM -0600, s. keeling wrote:
 Incoming from Luis Mochan:
  I found a mistake in the extract_url.pl program: it doesn't escape
  ampersands when present in the url, so when the command to actually
  view the url is invoked, the shell gets confused. I made a quick fix
  by substituting $command=~s//\\/g before running command.
 
 Line 633?  634?  So:
 
# $command =~ s/%s/'$url'/g;
$command=~s//\\/g;
 
 I'm a perl guy, yet that's non-trivial here.  Thx.  :-)

Are you sure that will work? You've just commented out a line of code.
(Just wondering what your patch would look like.)

Disclaimer: I haven't looked at extract_url.pl myself.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Long urls - update

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 01:06:05AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 10:00:58PM -0600, s. keeling wrote:
  Incoming from Luis Mochan:
   I found a mistake in the extract_url.pl program: it doesn't escape
   ampersands when present in the url, so when the command to actually
   view the url is invoked, the shell gets confused. I made a quick fix
   by substituting $command=~s//\\/g before running command.
  
  Line 633?  634?  So:
  
 # $command =~ s/%s/'$url'/g;
 $command=~s//\\/g;
  
  I'm a perl guy, yet that's non-trivial here.  Thx.  :-)
 
 Are you sure that will work? You've just commented out a line of code.
 (Just wondering what your patch would look like.)

Ahh, see it's included in a message by Luis Mochan in this thread.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Long urls

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 02:56:18PM +0100, John Niendorf wrote:
 I am using Mutt-patched from the Ubuntu repository (Yes, I am one of the 
 unwashed.)
 Anyway, it works really well except that if a url extends to multiple lines, 
 Mutt can't figure it out and clicking leads to a page not found error.
 
 I tried copying the url, but when I highlight the lines with the url I end up 
 copying a bunch of other stuff that is not in the url (like part of the list 
 of folders in the Mutt side panel, for example).
 
 Does anyone know a way to deal with long urls aside from opening up 
 Thunderbird?
 
 Thanks for any advice, I really appreciate it.

Is there a '+' sign at the start of each line of the url?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Long urls

[Chris Bannister]

Reply to the list (only) please John, so others can follow along.
The messages are archived for future generations to find if they
can bother searching.

On Sat, Mar 30, 2013 at 03:44:08PM +0100, John Niendorf wrote:
 Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 03:37:19AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 Is there a '+' sign at the start of each line of the url?
 
 Yes there usually is.
 
 Thank you all for chiming in.  I appreciate the help.

Then you'll either have to manually remove the '+' sign or find the
setting that turns the feature (where a + sign is inserted at the start
of the line on line wrap) off. Unfortunately I can' remember what
variable controls it, at the moment.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Better folder navigation ?

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 01:01:00AM -0400, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
 With ~250 nested folders the 'c' change folder is rather tedious to use.
 
 Or is it somehow possible to write a macro that uses find shell command to 
 locate list of possible folders
 and then have me choose the right one ?

I believe so yes, this is what mutt is good at.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Why sign every message? (was Re: Sending attachments without crypt_autosign

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2013 at 09:37:46AM -0600, Dale Raby wrote:
 I sign most of my messages, even though I only know a few people who
 actively use GnuPG/PGP.  As I see it, this is one way of promoting
 encryption.  I.e.: What is that block of gibberish you have at the end
 of your emails?  That, my friend is my public key.  If you have the
 right software you can verify that I sent you that message, and we can
 even send encrypted emails that nobody else can read but us. 
 Really?!  Tell me more!

Is it true that if you want to correspond with people on windoze who use
outhouse then it becomes tricky?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Why does some list software not honor the headers? (was ... Re: People want ...)

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 02:43:42PM -0600, Derek Martin wrote:
 If you've ever had to do this, you know it's tedious and annoying.
 Mutt is the only client I know of that gives you a choice in the
 matter, via the $reply-to variable. 

I wondered why I couldn't find it. :) JFTR, it's $reply_to 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Why does some list software not honor the headers? (was ... Re: People want ...)

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 08:00:24AM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
 * Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz [02-23-13 00:32]:
  On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 07:44:37AM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
   Then it *should* be upon you to adjust your mail-system to provide the
   *special* provision that *you* desire rather than force an un-needed extra
   copy upon the rest of the world.
  
  The **ONLY** way to not get an extra copy is **NOT** to get CC'd in the
  first place (and vice versa; i.e you in To and list in CC). It is
  disgusting that the list software decides whether to honor the headers
  or not
  
 
 To my understanding, list software does not decide, except concerning MFT. 
 *The* problem is users not responding to list, L, but rather to all, g. 
 The expectation of one reading/writing a list that they would continue to

The list software, mailman, has an option not to rec duplicate mail. IOW
if you are CC'd on a list (and vice versa; i.e you in To and list in CC)
then the list software doesn't send you a list copy but only a personal
copy. It is set to yes (IOW, no duplicates) by default on at least the
lists I am subscribed to which use mailman. I've had to explicitly tell
the software to honor the email headers, I think it should be the other
way round. i.e. you should explicitly tell the software to break
expected behaviour. 

A better heading, would be Honor email headers? or Don't honor email
headers?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Why does some list software not honor the headers? (was ... Re: People want ...)

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 07:44:37AM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
 Then it *should* be upon you to adjust your mail-system to provide the
 *special* provision that *you* desire rather than force an un-needed extra
 copy upon the rest of the world.

The **ONLY** way to not get an extra copy is **NOT** to get CC'd in the
first place (and vice versa; i.e you in To and list in CC). It is
disgusting that the list software decides whether to honor the headers
or not

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Highlight threads related to me

[Chris Bannister]

[Corrected subject, for archive search purposes]

 - Marco net...@lavabit.com [2013-02-19 00:12:52 +0100] - :
 
  On 2013–02–18 Marco wrote:
  
   Since I use folding by default, I would like to highlight entire

Hi Marco (sorry about private mail, thought I'd lost this thread.)

When you say folding do you mean this config (or something like it)
snippet?

##
# Collapse all threads except for threads with unread messages.
set collapse_unread=no
folder-hook . 'push collapse-all'

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: People that CC mailing lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 09:03:13PM +0100, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote:
 mutt, like vi and other command line programs, have an invisible user
 interface. One needs to internalize the interface in order to use it
 efficiently. If takes lots of time to learn such an interface and to become
 productive. Anyone who went that road knows the reward great. There's nothing
 that distracts you. You can focus and all switches are within reach of a few
 finger presses. No need to leave the keyboard and use your eyes to find the
 right button. You think it and you can type it. No need to check with the
 eyes.

Although, I find that I tend to subconsiously press the 'i' key in lynx
more often than I care to say.  I know, I know, I should remap the 'i'
key in the same way that I've mapped 'q' to ABORT.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: People that CC mailing lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 02:00:41PM -0700, Bob Proulx wrote:
 Michael Elkins wrote:
  I prefer to save the copy with the List-Post header field rather
  than the personal copy, so I use a slightly different approach:
 
 Agreed.  However Mailman has an option that is often (ab)used.
 
   Filter out duplicate messages to list members (if possible)
 
 In which case if you are subscribed to the mailing list and someone
 posts to the mailing list and also either To: or Cc: your subscribed
 address then Mailman does not mail you a mailing list copy.  Argh!  I
 always uncheck that when I have control of a mailing list.  But others
 tend to check it.

Each subscriber can set it in the preferences page, but yeah, initially
it could be a problem.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: People that CC mailing lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 08:02:02AM +0100, Alexander Dahl wrote:
 
 This is exactly the problem: if you have unexperienced or uninterested
 users you want them to have an easy user interface. Teaching them to
 hit reply if they want to answer just to the poster and reply to all
 for answering all (aka the list) is difficult enough, even though this
 does not break with the thing you do with mail to multiple receivers
 without mailinglists. If you don't have the avoid box checked in
 mailman those people get duplicate messages and that's what you do not
 want, because this ends in discussions about their MUAs and then you
 are screwed anyway.

Why? It is awkward replying to a list when a copy isn't sent to the
subscriber of the list¹ 'L' doesn't work for a start.

Catering for inexperienced or uninterested users unfortunately makes it
awkward for normal users. Inexperienced or uninterested users will soon
become experienced users and will eventually thank you. (maybe?) :)

¹ I've got a strange feeling of deja vu ... m!?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: colorize mails from different mailing lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 11:06:01PM +0530, dexter wrote:
 how can i colorize 'subject' line from different mailing lists
 in index.

Wouldn't sorting them into different mailboxes avoid the problem of
two or more lists having the same subject?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: People that CC mailing lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 03:40:14PM -0800, Will Yardley wrote:
 On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 10:30:32AM +, Chris Green wrote:
  On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:46:34AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
   On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 09:31:23AM +, Chris Green wrote:
 
If you have the list in your .muutrc 'subscribe' and or 'lists' commands
then the correct way to reply to the list is L[ist reply].
   
   'L' works when there is a List-Post header, so no need for a subcribe or
   list command.
   
  Yes, but not every mailing list has such a header.
 
 Also, an off-list copy that you receive, but CCd to the list, will not
 have the rfc2369 headers, which mnight explain the inconsistent behavior
 that one user mentioned.

That could be one of the reasons people hate being CC'd. I tend to
ignore CC'd mail and just reply to the list, but there is one (some?)
mailing list software which if the message is CC'd or To you then you
don't get sent a list copy by default. You physically have to click a
box on a web page to say send me all mail EVEN IF the message is CC'd or
addressed To me. PITA first time.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: [POSSIBLE SPAM] People that CC mailing lists

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 09:31:23AM +, Chris Green wrote:
 On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:32:13AM +, Russell L. Harris wrote:
  * David Woodfall d...@dawoodfall.net [130210 00:45]:
   I've a few mailing lists where people don't send to the mailing list
   instead they CC it. In which case when I reply to the list mutt
   doesn't recognise it as a list and I have to do a normal reply and
   manually put in the mailing list address in the send field.
  ...
   I guess the other way is to nag people into using a proper email
   client :)
  
  Please tell me if I am using the wrong command when attempting to
  reply to a mail list regarding a message on the list.  I am running
  Mutt on Debian Squeeze.
  
 If you have the list in your .muutrc 'subscribe' and or 'lists' commands
 then the correct way to reply to the list is L[ist reply].

'L' works when there is a List-Post header, so no need for a subcribe or
list command.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: .procmailrc configurations

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 12:29:47PM -0500, Patrick Shanahan wrote:
 for mdir
 
 =
 MAILDIR=$HOME/mail ## your mail dir below /home/user
 
:0:
* ^TO_mutt/-users/@mutt/.org
$MAILDIR/mutt-users
 =
 
 
 
 for maildir, note trailing / in the assigned location
 
 =
 MAILDIR=$HOME/mail ## your mail dir below /home/user

:0:
* ^TO_mutt/-users/@mutt/.org
$MAILDIR/mutt-users/

AFAIR, maildir doesn't need locking whereas mbox does, so compare:
:0:

to 

:0

i.e. no trailing semicolon. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: use of .forward file

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:37:06PM +0800, horseriver wrote:
I have already  read this man page ,and I am reaching on these points all.
 
My system now has one mail delivery agent named exim4. But I do not know 
is it  the default mail delivery agent ?
   
Can  you  tell me  how to know the default mail delivery agent on my 
 system?

For a start exim4 is an MTA (mail transport agent)

You really need to read to some basic docs about how mail can be handled
on a Unix/Linux system.

A hint which helped me when I first started, was sending a mail is a
totally different procedure to recieving a mail.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: use of .forward file

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 12:37:06PM +0800, horseriver wrote:
I have already  read this man page ,and I am reaching on these points all.
 
My system now has one mail delivery agent named exim4.

Umm, no.

Have a look at:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Mail-Administrator-HOWTO-3.html
http://www.unix.com/unix-dummies-questions-answers/
http://dsl.org/cookbook/cookbook_38.html
http://lowfatlinux.com/linux-read-email.html
http://lowfatlinux.com/linux-send-email.html
http://www.linuxtopia.org/HowToGuides/linux_email_setup_guide/linux_email_intro1.html
http://www.linuxhomenetworking.com/wiki/index.php/Quick_HOWTO_:_Ch21_:_Configuring_Linux_Mail_Servers
http://docstore.mik.ua/orelly/linux/run/ch16_02.htm
http://www.northernjourney.com/opensource/newbies/newb024.html
http://www.linux.org/article/view/mail-servers
http://wiki2.dovecot.org/MailServerOverview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_delivery_agent

etc... etc... etc...

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: mailing lists and different directories

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 03:54:05AM +0200, lambda calculus wrote:
 Hi guys, i recently changed to mutt, and reading the documentation,
 but i can't find what i want:

What program were you using before?

 Since I'm subscribed to a couple of mailing lists i would like to
 configure mutt to store mails from different mailing lists to
 different directories.
 
 Let's li...@something1.org
 and   li...@something2.org

How are you getting the mail on to your computer?

 The choice of which directory(mailing list) to read, whould be made
 with the -f option.

Why? You can you use c to change mailboxes from within mutt itself.

 Can anyone supply an example please?

Which Mail Delivery Agent (MDA) are you using?

P.S. With a handle of lambda calculus, I hope you don't want any
examples using LISP :D

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: How to import the early mails into mutt ?

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 12:06:04PM -0700, s. keeling wrote:
 Incoming from horseriver:
  
  I subscribed a mail list at date X , Now I want to import these mails which 
  are 
  post  before X , How can I　do ?
 
 Just brainstorming here.
 
i) please give a better description of your problem.

The description is pretty clear. OP joins list Y on date X, say X is
20th Jan 2013. He wants to import mails posted before X, i.e. before
20th Jan 2013 into mutt so he can read them.

   ii) what format are mails stored in (ASCII, mbox/maildir, ...)?

Does it matter? 

  iii) what, specifically, is the problem you're running into (error
   messages, corrupted data, whatever).

He doesn't appear to be running into any problem importing them,
simply because he doesn't know where to start.


AFAIUI, it is not possible to import mails for a mailing list which were
sent *before* you joined. I suggest reading/searching the archives of
the list in question.

IOW, it is not something mutt can do.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: How to import the early mails into mutt ?

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 11:02:24AM -0700, s. keeling wrote:
 
 [Apologies if this reaks with hostility; it isn't meant.  

I've seen your posts before. 

 Understanding error reports and missives from users is an art.

Exactly! So asking a mere user whether the messages are stored in mbox
or maildir or plain ASCII won't help much, IMNSHO. A better question
might be: Oh, OK, what list is this? and then checking yourself.

 I like to think of it as bang your head on the wall until it falls over.  

You're more likely to knock yourself unconscious.

 I've listened to too many mere users complaining about us geeks 
 not understanding them.  

Mmmm, ...

 We need to step up our game.]

What's this we business?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: changing the query command

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 08:18:47AM -0600, Dale A. Raby wrote:
 Hello:
 
 I've started using Abook recently and run into a minor irritation; when
 hitting the shift Q key sequence, all is well and I am prompted for
 my query, but if I forget to hit the shift key, Mutt correctly
 interprets the command to quit and I have to relaunch the application.
 
 Other than not forgetting to hit the shift key, is there a way to
 avoid this?  Can I somehow change the command to s for search or
 something?


Use CTRL-T instead?


-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Question about PGP and mutt

[Chris Bannister]

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 11:09:48AM -0700, Robert Holtzman wrote:
 On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 07:33:16AM -0600, Dale A. Raby wrote:
 
  set pgp_replyencrypt=yes
  set pgp_timeout=1800
  set pgp_good_sign=^gpg: Good signature from
 
 I have none of this in my .muttrc and have pgp capability. P shows the
 pgp menu. This in mutt 1.5.20-9+squeeze2.

root@tal:~# ls -al /etc/Muttrc.d/
total 40
drwxr-xr-x   2 root root  4096 Oct  2 18:56 .
drwxr-xr-x 109 root root 12288 Jan 11 18:59 ..
-rw-r--r--   1 root root79 Jul  9  2011 abook.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root   410 Jan 15  2011 charset.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root   612 Jan 15  2011 colors.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root   427 May  9  2011 compressed-folders.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root  1406 Jan 15  2011 gpg.rc
-rw-r--r--   1 root root  3648 Jan 15  2011 smime.rc

OK, this is on Wheezy, but I expect it isn't that much different than
Squeeze

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Jump to next mailbox with unread mail

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 01:47:24PM +, Chris Green wrote:
 
 I have added:-
 bindindex   n next-unread-mailbox
 
 ... and now I can find new mail in all my (mbox) mailboxes without any
 stupid requirements for setting access times or whatever to the files.
 I always thought it should be simple and it is!

Thanks for the heads up, it is handy to know.

 Why isn't this the default set-up for mutt?

Don't know. It could be the way people handle mail, e.g. Do you leave
all your snail mail in your letter box and just read the interesting
letters or do you bring in all your mail at once and deal with it in one
sitting, or do you ...

Can you see where I'm coming from?  mutt tends to be very conservative
with its defaults and has settings which seem most natural to the
majority of users, after all, it is fairly useless without some
customisation.

 It is somewhat slower than 'c' but not really significantly so where
 all my mail is in local mbox files.

If it is slower, then that might be a good reason why it is not the
default. In all honestly though, I think people may complain if it was
made the default, simply because the majority of people are only
interested in reading new mail. They are probably aware they have old
unread mail lying around but don't want to be consistently reminded all
the time. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Jump to next mailbox with unread mail

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 02:01:47AM +0100, Marco wrote:
 On 2012–12–20 Patrick Shanahan wrote:
 
  You access the mail box and leave, then expect mutt to still show
  new mail.
 
 Yes, I do. If there is a new unread message in the mail box and I
 enter and leave it is still contains an unread message that resides
 in the .mailbox/new directory. I'm sorry that I still don't get it.

New mail is flagged with an N, old unread mail is flagged with an O, new
mail is mail that has appeared in the mailbox *since* it was last
opened/visited.

If you leave/close a mailbox where there is mail flagged with an N,
the flag will change to an O, this allows the distinction between New
unread mail, and old unread mail.

Is that any clearer?


-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Jump to next mailbox with unread mail

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Dec 21, 2012 at 03:45:06PM +, Chris Green wrote:
 Yes (not the OP here though), however it has always seemed odd to me
 that I can't get mutt to take me to all/any mailboxes which have
 *unread* mail in them.  I.e. I want 'c' to take me to the next mailbox
 with unread mail in it, *not* to the next mailbox with new mail in it.

Good point. I agree. Not necessarily 'c' though.

Weird, the documentation has (under pattern matching)

~N New messages
~O Old messages
~U Unread messages

Just wondering, what is an Unread message if its not New or Old, unless
its New AND Old together?

Just a quick grep through the docs reveals:

When changing folders, Mutt fills the prompt with the first folder from
the mailboxes list containing new mail (if any), pressing Space will cycle
through folders with new mail. The (by default unbound) function
next-unread-mailbox in the index can be used to immediately open the
next folder with unread mail (if any).

Could you try that, and see what happens?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Jump to next mailbox with unread mail

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Dec 22, 2012 at 07:03:23AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 Weird, the documentation has (under pattern matching)
 
 ~N New messages
 ~O Old messages
 ~U Unread messages
 
 Just wondering, what is an Unread message if its not New or Old, unless
 its New AND Old together?
  ^^^
Arrghh! That should be either New OR Old.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: HTML markup in email [was: Please set your line wrap to a sane value]

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 12:15:49PM -0600, Derek Martin wrote:
 On Sat, Dec 15, 2012 at 11:44:17PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
  On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 07:43:12PM -0600, Derek Martin wrote:
   Same arguemnt as above.  Also this is mostly not interesting
   anymore.  When you compare this to the amount of bandwidth consumed
   by things like streaming video, it's a drop in the bucket.
  
  Streaming video is specifically requested. I rec a lot of HTML email I
  don't request. There is a big diference.
 
 So?  For the purposes of deciding whether or not HTML provides useful
 formatting in e-mail messages, this is neither relevant nor

I agree, I was commenting on your assertion that streaming video uses

more bandwidth than HTML email.

 The vast majority of e-mail I receive at my various mail addresses is
 e-mail I didn't request, HTML or not.  Once again, what you're really
 talking about is spammers sending web pages as e-mail messages, i.e.

No I'm not. I'm talking about when a subscriber to a ML sends an HTML
message to that ML then *every* subscriber gets a copy. 

 spam, which is an entirely separate issue.  If you have a mailbox on
 the internet, anyone can send you as much data as they feel like...

True, and some ML are similar when you consider non-trimming and HTML
messages.

 Your argument is, almost literally, a case of killing the messenger.

Not sure what you mean, but a) I don't believe in violence and b) The
Internet *is* the messenger, and I certainly don't advocate that.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: HTML markup in email [was: Please set your line wrap to a sane value]

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 07:43:12PM -0600, Derek Martin wrote:
 Same arguemnt as above.  Also this is mostly not interesting
 anymore.  When you compare this to the amount of bandwidth consumed
 by things like streaming video, it's a drop in the bucket.

Streaming video is specifically requested. I rec a lot of HTML email I
don't request. There is a big diference.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 10:55:32AM +0200, Nikola Petrov wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 01:53:59PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
  On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 02:33:56PM +0200, Nikola Petrov wrote:
   
   The fact that I don't know how the engine of my car works doesn't make
   me a newbie. That's what abstractions in our world are for.
  
  Umm, in the car world yes you'd be a newbie. Don't consider it a
  derogatory term. We are all newbies somewhere. 
  
 
 Yep that was my point exactly. Just because my mom doesn't want to wrap
 her text or use non html make her a worse/better person.  She just
 doesn't care and wants her work done.

Right, and that's fine¹, but if she ever did subscribe to a mailing list
for support, then there is a good chance that someone will say no html
thanks ... 

I think as more and more people get introduced to Linux, this topic will
raise itself more and more, and personally I think some people will see
the light (as I did) regarding why nettiquette exists _FOR_ support
mailing lists. 

¹ Well, yeah I know, it isn't really. I bet she is fussy in some areas
where I wouldn't be and she would be tut tut tutting if I didn't care.
Am I right or am I right? :)

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 01:53:59PM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 02:33:56PM +0200, Nikola Petrov wrote:
  
  The fact that I don't know how the engine of my car works doesn't make
  me a newbie. That's what abstractions in our world are for.
 
 Umm, in the car world yes you'd be a newbie. Don't consider it a
 derogatory term. We are all newbies somewhere. 

I think what I should have said is that: If you want to get involved in
the car world i.e. subscribe to a mailing list where they talk about
your model of car, or you enrol in a course so that you can do some
repairs to your car so as to save on some repair bills, then you are a
newbie until you reach a certain level of competence.

Of course, if you are not interested in fixing or chatting about your
car then whether you are a newbie or not is probably something for the
academics to debate about around the smoko¹ table.


¹ AKA morning or afternoon break.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 02:33:56PM +0200, Nikola Petrov wrote:
 
 The fact that I don't know how the engine of my car works doesn't make
 me a newbie. That's what abstractions in our world are for.

Umm, in the car world yes you'd be a newbie. Don't consider it a
derogatory term. We are all newbies somewhere. 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 07:30:14AM -0600, Dale A. Raby wrote:
 
 Not all of us are IT professionals.  Some of us are blacksmiths, gun
 salesmen, truck drivers, and even ecdysiasts.

Please don't group IT professionals. and
standards/ettiquette/netiquette as one. 

 No exceptions?  Really?  I seem to get quite a bit of HTML formatted
 email from friends, family, and business associates.  Also, some of the
 lists I subscribe to come in HTML.

And that's fine¹. But on a mailing list it is a terrible way to try and
get support.


¹ Well, OK it isn't, but have you tried nailing jelly to a tree?

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 07:08:11PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
 Now, if we consider lousy tools (tools that either fail to facilitate
 standards or needlessly impose extra work on humans), then it can only
 be the contrary of what you're saying.  Selfish authors do what is
 convenient for /themselves/, not the reader.  Wrapped text is *easier*
 to write because the author must also read the text as they compose
 it.  Wrapping it during composition and then shipping it as-is is
 therefore a selfish act.  And when dealing with lousy tools, unwrapped
 text is *more difficult* to compose, because as it's written the tool
 is not making it easy for the author to read their own message.

What a load of crap. Wrapped text is not easier to write, you have to
configure it!  Unwrapped text is a lot easier to write because you don't
have to configure it. Also, if the author doesn't find it easy to read
their own message, how on earth is anyone else going to find it easy to
read? And yet they still send it. Now, THAT'S selfish!

I'm guessing that your idea of a tool that isn't lousy would be Mr
Paperclip. :D

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 10:24:59AM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
 
 Actually, it wasn't about GMail at all. It was about the fact that
 millions of email users don't care about line wrapping, or text/plain,
 or any of these other 40 year old conventions. The mutt-users group
 just happens to represent the minuscule segment of the email
 population that is still concerned about such things.

Wrong. It was about netiquette on mailing lists. I see now, how some of
the posts in this thread seemed so weird! So in this light, you'll see
that the mutt-users mailing list just happens to represent the majority
of posters on mailing lists.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 06:20:00PM +, Grant Edwards wrote:
 The main Python mailing list gets regular posts from Google Groups.
 Those posts are always malformatted (the formatting seems to change
 over the years, but it never actually gets better).  The ones that
 aren't just spam are always very badly written and rarely contain
 enough information to even guess what the poster is asking, let alone
 formulate a useful answer.  Attempts to pry useful information from
 the poster usually prove fruitless.

That is explained by the fact that Python is also used on the Windows
platform.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Dec 01, 2012 at 05:57:03PM -0500, Peter Davis wrote:
 Apparently even proper conversational quoting is too complex for you
 to follow. I was responding to a comment on a comment on an earlier
 post of mine. Since I wrote that earlier post, I think I have a pretty
 good idea what it was about.

Your post didn't read that way. There is no need to be abusive, is
there?

  I see now, how some of the posts in this thread seemed so weird! So
  in this light, you'll see that the mutt-users mailing list just
  happens to represent the majority of posters on mailing lists.
 
 Your conclusion seems to be drawn from thin air, since there's not a
 shred of evidence or even logic behind it.  Mutt users, including the
 members of this list, comprise a minute segment of the email using,
 and mailing list using public. They in no way represent the email or
 mailing list population in general.

You don't need to use mutt to understand netiquette. IOW, many users
exhibit good posting practice who don't use mutt at all.

 Etiquette, or netiquette if you prefer, is basically the set of
 rules of conduct, explicit or implicit, that are adopted and adhered
 to by a population to establish norms of behavior. 

Don't confuse netiquette with a list's code of conduct.

[...]

You should have a read of:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/emily-postnews/part1/

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Sun, Nov 25, 2012 at 07:14:45PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
 On 2012-11-25, Chris Bannister cbannis...@slingshot.co.nz wrote:
 
  With regards to mailing list posts, which is what the original post
  of mine was addressing, sending HTML posts is very wasteful. They
  are archived in various places on the Net, where they are stored for
  ever and a day. Yeah, yeah, hard disks are cheap etc. etc. etc, but
  that is not the issue¹.
 
 Waste is something that in itself has no value.  But formatting has
 value added to the presentation.  So it's a stretch to label html as
 waste, before even discussing the significance of it.

I don't see how an html email adds any value whatsoever to a post on a
software support mailing list. Au contraire, it is a PITA having to deal
with them.

 In the context for which you attempt to make an argument about HTML
 being wasteful, it's quite silly considering how much waste is
 inherent in a mailing list.  Mailing lists distribute the full body of
 each and every message to each and every member -- who will look at
 the headers and decide what to read.

With good trimming practice that, shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Remember, the whole point of the support mailing list's raison d'etre is
to provide support, so I think you are clutching at straws when you
start along that line.

 the tags -- something that actually adds value?  The tags present in
 unread messages are dwarfed by the content in unread messages.

You'll never convince me that an HTML message adds value, sorry.

 One could perhaps make a case that the HTML tags are wasteful from the
 angle that they're not as short as they could be.  But even then
 you're still stepping over dollars to pick up pennies.

Dealing with waste in web pages, is an entirely, completely different
topic and no relevance here. I'm not even going to start on the crap
code that Frontpage produces ... cough, cough, sorry.

 Moreover, text is highly compressible.  So if you're keen to make
 perfection the enemy of availability, you should be on the fringe
 advocating for a binary format and a scheme that distributes headers
 only, until specifically retreived for reading.

Some archives have gzipped monthly downloads, which is a good idea.
With regards to a binary format, I'm not sure if you are joking or not,
but It might be an interesting idea to force everyone to have a pgp key
compress every post and sign it, and if the signature doesn't verify,
reject it? 

Then again, if spammers managed to get hold of people's secret keys, all
hell would break loose. No on second thoughts scrap that.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: Please set your line wrap to a sane value (was ... Re: Is there any gmane.org user in the list?)

[Chris Bannister]

On Sat, Nov 24, 2012 at 08:46:59PM +, Tony's unattended mail wrote:
 On 2012-11-24, Derek Martin inva...@pizzashack.org wrote:
 
  Yeah, I said exactly that in another message.  Now generate HTML
  mail with Mutt.  Plus you still get a lot of folks -- many of whom
  use GUI clents -- who complain about HTML mail for any number of
  reasons.  And at least a few of them are legitimately arguable
  concerns.  A good
  start:
 
http://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml
 
 6/7 of those are good reasons to condemn HTML e-mail with todays tools
 in a hypothetical scenario where tools cannot improve.  (The bandwidth
 waste claim is silly and can be disregarded in these days of Youtube
 streaming and a diminishing dial-up community).

With regards to mailing list posts, which is what the original post of
mine was addressing, sending HTML posts is very wasteful. They are
archived in various places on the Net, where they are stored for ever
and a day. Yeah, yeah, hard disks are cheap etc. etc. etc, but that is
not the issue¹.

Some lists have thousands of subscribers and so the waste of bandwidth
delivering HTML posts is even more of an issue. Yeah, yeah, most people
have high speed internet connections these days etc. etc. etc, but that
is not the issue¹.

Wasn't it Benjamin Franklin who said waste not want not.

¹ If you can't see the issue; google why is waste bad
Web Results 1 - 10 of about 244,000,000 for why is waste bad. (0.23 seconds)
It's an attitude issue.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X

Re: email has changed, you won't change everyone, and you don't have to

[Chris Bannister]

On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 02:37:57PM -0600, David Champion wrote:
 * On 21 Nov 2012, Chris Bannister wrote: 
  Because there are no CR/LF in a paragraph then it is treated all as one
  line. If the first line of a paragraph appears at the bottom of the
  screen as yours did then mutt displays All on the far right of the
  status line. This gives the impression that that is all there is to the
  post, and hence the reason I thought you'd accidently sent it before
  completing it.
 
 I think I see what you're saying now.  It's not that mutt wouldn't
 display the whole message, but that when your window stops on the first
 terminal (logical) line of the last physical line of the message, mutt
 still indicates All instead of, e.g. 90%.  This prompts you not to
 finish reading.

Yes, correct.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X