Re: Zayo zColo Xcon Pricing

[Mel Beckman]

NRC? Do you mean ETC (early termination charge)?

This is a sore point with me in all telco contracts. They want a one- or 
two-year term, or even three, and in exchange give you a discount on the 
installation and a tiny MRC reduction. But if you cancel early, they demand 
full payment for all the remaining months! I realize that the contract is 
written this way, but why? It doesn’t seem fair at all, and as a service 
provider myself, I know this is actually a huge unearned windfall for the 
provider. 

To make things worse, many providers subtly plant an “auto-renew” clause in 
their contracts. You miss canceling but the end of the contract date, and BOOM, 
you’re on the hook for another two years!

 I’ve been burned by this more than once.

 -mel

> On Mar 7, 2018, at 8:41 AM, Romeo Czumbil  wrote:
> 
> Wait till you ask for a disconnect. Then you get hit again for a hefty NRC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org] On Behalf Of James Laszko
> Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2018 10:11 AM
> To: nanog 
> Subject: Zayo zColo Xcon Pricing
> 
> One of our colo’s in San Diego was purchased by Zayo recently and I requested 
> a new copper Ethernet xcon to be placed.  After a few days I received a quote 
> from my new rep quoting a MRC 3x what I’m currently paying for existing 
> xcon’s as well as a hefty NRC as well.  Anyone have any experience with this 
> kind of thing?  Anyone care to share what an average copper xcon, single 
> floor, meet-me-room to cage, Ethernet from carrier circuit costs?  (This xcon 
> is approx 30 feet..)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> James
> 
> Sent from my iPad

Re: ifIndex

[Mel Beckman]

Cisco has a feature you can enable called “Interface Index Persistence”:

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/support/docs/ip/simple-network-management-protocol-snmp/28420-ifIndex-Persistence.html

This solves the problem, at least with Cisco gear.

 -mel beckman

On Oct 12, 2018, at 1:33 PM, Naslund, Steve 
mailto:snasl...@medline.com>> wrote:

I see this all the time.  Especially in module chassis.  It seems like 
sometimes it has to do with when each board goes to a ready state as the system 
boots.  We also see renumbering due to virtual interface and board additions.  
While you are running they seem to get the next ifindex available but when you 
reboot the seem to be in the order they come up or the order they are in the 
configuration.  It is a real pain and some software allows us to rescan a 
device and other software we have no easy way other than to delete and the 
re-add the device.  I feel your pain on this one.

I have no idea why most NMS systems can't seem to understand this and just 
rescan at a set interval or after an up/down device event.

Steven Naslund
Chicago IL

do folk have experience with platforms where ifIndexes are not stable
across reboots etc?  how do you deal with it?  do some of those
platforms trap on change?

Re: ifIndex

[Mel Beckman]

Saku,

The issue isn't that ifindexes change during operation. That would truly make 
SNMP useless. The issue is that they change across reboots. That's where 
features such as Cisco's Interface Index Persistence helps out. 

-mel via cell

> On Oct 13, 2018, at 2:59 AM, Saku Ytti  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 21:40, Chris Adams  wrote:
>> 
>> Is there any good excuse that SNMP client software can't handle a basic
>> design of SNMP - indexed tables?  ifIndex is far from the only index in
>> SNMP, and many of them still change today at various times.
>> 
>> It isn't that hard to fetch the indexed field in a bulk get, rewalking
>> the table if you don't get what you expected.  Cricket did this in 1999.
> 
> It's never going to be provably correct, depending on what stability means.
> 
> You fetch relation at t0, then at t1 you fetch data. Was the relation
> same at t0 and t1? You can gain some confidence by fetching relation
> again at t2 and disregard data if t0 != t2. But this becomes polling
> expensive quite fast, and still not provably correct. This may be
> nitpicking, but I've always felt uneasy about the lack of guarantee.
> 
> I wonder if those who have stable indeces, have them for all cases,
> all logical interfaces and virtual interfaces?
> 
> -- 
>  ++ytti

Re: ifIndex

[Mel Beckman]

David,

All you have to do is turn on IFindex persistence:

https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/routers/crs/software/crs_r4-2/system_management/command/reference/b_sysman_cr42crs/b_sysman_cr42crs_chapter_01101.html#wp2192797756

We do this on our XRs and it works perfectly.

-mel via cell

On Oct 13, 2018, at 9:20 AM, David Hubbard 
mailto:dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com>> wrote:

Cisco tries very hard to make such useless data occur in XR.  If you have a 
gigE SFP in an SFP+ port, a new ifindex will appear for the resulting 
GigabitEthernetX port, then it remains even if both the config and SFP have 
been removed.  Automated systems will keep querying it as if it were a downed 
port, but wait, reboot, and suddenly it vanishes.  I went back and forth with 
TAC for weeks explaining that SNMP interfaces should not disappear as a result 
of a reboot, I should either be able to remove it, or it's stuck there forever, 
but a reboot should not cause a change.  They didn't care; it is 'by design'.

On 10/13/18, 8:47 AM, "NANOG on behalf of Mel Beckman" 
mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org> on behalf of 
m...@beckman.org<mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:

   Saku,

   The issue isn't that ifindexes change during operation. That would truly 
make SNMP useless. The issue is that they change across reboots. That's where 
features such as Cisco's Interface Index Persistence helps out.

   -mel via cell

On Oct 13, 2018, at 2:59 AM, Saku Ytti mailto:s...@ytti.fi>> 
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 at 21:40, Chris Adams 
mailto:c...@cmadams.net>> wrote:

Is there any good excuse that SNMP client software can't handle a basic
design of SNMP - indexed tables?  ifIndex is far from the only index in
SNMP, and many of them still change today at various times.

It isn't that hard to fetch the indexed field in a bulk get, rewalking
the table if you don't get what you expected.  Cricket did this in 1999.

It's never going to be provably correct, depending on what stability means.

You fetch relation at t0, then at t1 you fetch data. Was the relation
same at t0 and t1? You can gain some confidence by fetching relation
again at t2 and disregard data if t0 != t2. But this becomes polling
expensive quite fast, and still not provably correct. This may be
nitpicking, but I've always felt uneasy about the lack of guarantee.

I wonder if those who have stable indeces, have them for all cases,
all logical interfaces and virtual interfaces?

--
++ytti

Re: Hurricane Michael: Communications restoration status

[Mel Beckman]

It helps to have a largely intact power grid, and a state government that 
doesn’t squander maintenance dollars on graft and corruption.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-puertorico-prepa-probe/u-s-house-panel-probes-corruption-allegations-at-puerto-rico-utility-idUSKCN1GP03P

 -mel

On Oct 23, 2018, at 12:00 AM, Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:

Thank you for sharing this.

Very sad indeed to hear about 6 months delays in restoring for PR.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 8:47 PM Sean Donelan 
mailto:s...@donelan.com>> wrote:
39 deaths in the US, at least 15 deaths in Honduras, Nicaragua, El
Salvador

After 12 days, most wireless service is restored in Florida. It took
over 6 months to restore wireless service across Puerto Rico/US Virgin
Islands.

Today, Oct 22 2018, Verizon Wireless reported wireless services has been
restored throughout the area.

AT Wireless reports 99.9% wireless service restoration.

T-Mobile reports service restored or temporary solutions in place.

FCC Status Reporting

Cellular service:
Bay County: 103 cell sites out of service (29.7%)
Gadsden County: 12 cell sites out of service (19.4%)
Gulf County: 6 cell sites out of service (26.1%)

55,006 wireline and cable customers are reported out of service.

1 TV, 7 FM and 2 AM broadcasters reported out of service.

--
Mehmet
+1-424-298-1903

Re: Larry Roberts, RIP.

[Mel Beckman]

Such irony that Roberts’ NYTimes article is behind a paywall :)

Here’s a more informative, much more entertaining, and totally free article:

https://www.i-programmer.info/news/82-heritage/12414-internet-pioneer-lawrence-roberts-dies-aged-81.html


On Dec 30, 2018, at 7:59 PM, Dobbins, Roland 
mailto:roland.dobb...@netscout.com>> wrote:





Roland Dobbins mailto:roland.dobb...@netscout.com>>

Re: Verizon IDE

[Mel Beckman]

Verizon’s build-out policy boils down to whether or not any new contract will 
fund the metro-E upgrade costs over a five year period. If it won’t, then SONET 
is used where there is capacity, right up to the capacity limit. We recently 
received a 100 Mbps Ethernet circuit on the last OC3 of a SONET node. I argued 
that we should have been put on MetroE to enable future upgrades, since there 
is no orderable bandwidth left on this node, and Verizon’s reply was “you would 
have to order a bigger circuit now”. Frankly, I couldn’t justify the jump to 
GigE, so here we are on maxed-out facilities. 

 -mel beckman

> On Jan 5, 2019, at 12:06 PM, Justin M. Streiner  wrote:
> 
>> On Sat, 5 Jan 2019, Mitchell Lewis wrote:
>> 
>> How common is it for Verizon to deliver "Internet Dedicated Ethernet" over 
>> sonet? Ran into a situation where the canoga-perkins nte was uplinked to a 
>> Flashwave 4100es in the basement (uplinked by an OC-48). There is in a 
>> Verizon ILEC area.
> 
> If the location has an existing Verizon SONET node, and there is capacity on 
> it to provide the Ethernet service you need, Verizon could opt to deliver the 
> Ethernet service that way.
> 
> Thank you
> jms

Re: Your opinion on network analysis in the presence of uncertain events

[Mel Beckman]

MTBF can’t be used alone to predict failure probability, because product 
mortality follows the infamous “bathtub curve”. Products are as likely to fail 
early in their lives as later in their lives. MTBF as a scalar value is just an 
average.

-mel via cell

On Jan 16, 2019, at 12:43 PM, 
"adamv0...@netconsultings.com<mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com>" 
mailto:adamv0...@netconsultings.com>> wrote:

My understanding was that the tool will combine historic data with the MTBF 
datapoints form all components involved in a given link in order to try and 
estimate a likelihood of a link failure.
Heck I imagine if one would stream a heap load of data at a ML algorithm it 
might draw some very interesting conclusions indeed -i.e. draw unforeseen 
patterns across huge datasets while trying to understand the overall system 
(network) behaviour. Such a tool might teach us something new about our 
networks.
Next level would be recommendations on how to best address some of the 
potential pitfalls it found.

Maybe in closed systems like IP networks, with use of streaming telemetry from 
SFPs/NPUs/LC-CPUs/Protocols/etc.., we’ll be able to feed the analytics tool 
with enough data to allow it to make fairly accurate predictions (i.e. unlike 
in weather or markets prediction tools where the datasets (or search space -as 
not all attributes are equally relevant) is virtually endless).

adam

From: NANOG mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org>> On Behalf 
Of Mel Beckman
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 10:40 PM
To: Vanbever Laurent mailto:lvanbe...@ethz.ch>>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: Your opinion on network analysis in the presence of uncertain 
events

I know of none that take probabilities as inputs. Traditional network 
simulators, such as GNS3, let you model various failure modes, but probability 
seems squishy enough that I don’t see how it can be accurate, and thus helpful. 
It’s like that Dilbert cartoon where the pointy haired boss asks for a schedule 
of all future unplanned outages :)

https://dilbert.com/strip/1997-01-29
 -mel

On Jan 15, 2019, at 11:59 AM, Vanbever Laurent 
mailto:lvanbe...@ethz.ch>> wrote:


I took the survey. It’s short and sweet — well done!

Thanks a lot, Mel! Highly appreciated!


I do have a question. You ask "Are there any good?” Any good what?

I just meant whether existing network analysis tools were any good (or good 
enough) at reasoning about probabilistic behaviors that people care about (if 
any).

All the best,
Laurent

Re: AT starting to charge for RFOs on ASE tail circuits?

[Mel Beckman]

I wonder how this fits in with AT’s SLA commitments? How can you audit your 
SLA without the RFOs?

 -mel beckman

On Jan 18, 2019, at 9:28 AM, Victor Breen 
mailto:vic...@impulse.net>> wrote:


Well, I guess it's nice to know we're not the only ones getting that treatment. 
I'll have to see about this "gold status" you speak of.

--
Victor Breen  |  vic...@impulse.net<mailto:vic...@impulse.net>
Sr. Engineer  |  Impulse Advanced Communications
main 805.456.5800  |  www.impulse.net<http://www.impulse.net>


From: Kaiser, Erich mailto:er...@gotfusion.net>>
Sent: Friday, January 18, 2019 8:17:39 AM
To: Victor Breen
Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: AT starting to charge for RFOs on ASE tail circuits?

Yes we have seen that response in the past on RFOs.  Most of these random 
outages are maintenance for moving fiber due to construction and they do not 
tell you when it is going to happen, we have been complaining about this for 
the past year to them.Every other carrier issues a maintenance notification 
(most of the time), for some reason they do not feel it is necessary and blame 
the ASE product.

We are now a gold status customers so the support has gotten better.  We are 2 
months into it so we will see long term how it will work out.

Dealing with them has been frustrating for sure...

Erich Kaiser
The Fusion Network



On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 9:19 AM Victor Breen 
mailto:vic...@impulse.net>> wrote:

Hey All,


I just caught wind from multiple support reps of ours that AT is now 
demanding payment to get an RFO. As in, our folks are calling up AT to see 
why a particular tail circuit was down for whatever period of time and has 
since come back up with no clear utility power issue or backhoe fade to explain 
it. The response they get is that an RFO is billable and they have been asked 
to accept the charge to proceed (which they have rightly rejected thus far). 
This is the first time I've heard of this happening with any of our last-mile 
transport providers.


I'm very curious, has anyone else experienced this lately with AT or any 
other carriers?

--
Victor Breen  |  vic...@impulse.net<mailto:vic...@impulse.net>
Sr. Engineer  |  Impulse Advanced Communications
www.impulse.net<http://www.impulse.net>

Re: Your opinion on network analysis in the presence of uncertain events

[Mel Beckman]

I took the survey. It’s short and sweet — well done!

I do have a question. You ask "Are there any good?” Any good what?

 -mel

On Jan 15, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Vanbever Laurent 
mailto:lvanbe...@ethz.ch>> wrote:

Hi NANOG,

Networks evolve in uncertain environments. Links and devices randomly fail; 
external BGP announcements unpredictably appear/disappear leading to unforeseen 
traffic shifts; traffic demands vary, etc. Reasoning about network behaviors 
under such uncertainties is hard and yet essential to ensure Service Level 
Agreements.

We're reaching out to the NANOG community as we (researchers) are trying to 
better understand the practical requirements behind "probabilistic" network 
reasoning. Some of our questions include: Are uncertain behaviors problematic? 
Do you care about such things at all? Are you already using tools to ensure the 
compliance of your network design under uncertainty? Are there any good?

We designed a short anonymous survey to collect operators answers. It is 
composed of 14 optional questions, most of which (13/14) are closed-ended. It 
should take less than 10 minutes to complete. We expect the findings to help 
the research community in designing more powerful network analysis tools. Among 
others, we intend to present the aggregate results in a scientific article 
later this year.

It would be *terrific* if you could help us out!

Survey URL: https://goo.gl/forms/HdYNp3DkKkeEcexs2

Thanks much!

Laurent Vanbever, ETH Zürich


PS: It goes without saying that we would also be extremely grateful if you 
could forward this email to any operator you know and who may not read NANOG.

Re: Your opinion on network analysis in the presence of uncertain events

[Mel Beckman]

I know of none that take probabilities as inputs. Traditional network 
simulators, such as GNS3, let you model various failure modes, but probability 
seems squishy enough that I don’t see how it can be accurate, and thus helpful. 
It’s like that Dilbert cartoon where the pointy haired boss asks for a schedule 
of all future unplanned outages :)

https://dilbert.com/strip/1997-01-29

 -mel

On Jan 15, 2019, at 11:59 AM, Vanbever Laurent 
mailto:lvanbe...@ethz.ch>> wrote:


I took the survey. It’s short and sweet — well done!

Thanks a lot, Mel! Highly appreciated!

I do have a question. You ask "Are there any good?” Any good what?

I just meant whether existing network analysis tools were any good (or good 
enough) at reasoning about probabilistic behaviors that people care about (if 
any).

All the best,
Laurent

Re: Extending network over a dry pair

[Mel Beckman]

I’ve used the Patton copper link devices such as the one you mentioned Nick, 
and they work very well within the parameters they cover. Their tech-support is 
excellent also.

 -mel beckman

On Dec 12, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Josh Luthman 
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

Something LRE possibly.  Could just do VDSL.

Are you just looking at more than 1544 kbps or is there a particular threshold 
you need to meet (to support a camera, etc)?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:26 PM Nick Bogle 
mailto:n...@bogle.se>> wrote:
A quick question for you guys;

If you had a single dry pair (pair of copper wires originally for phones) to a 
remote site that was around 6 miles away, what would you use? We currently are 
just extending a T1 line to this site, but 1.5Mbps isn't cutting it anymore. 
Unfortunately it's a research site on a federally protected wildlife preserve 
so we can't run any new infrastructure (fiber etc) and it isn't in a 
geographical place where point to point wireless is practical. We were thinking 
there is some sort of network extender that uses some form of DSL for higher 
bandwidth capacity.

Any suggestions?

Re: historical Bogon lists

[Mel Beckman]

Lars,

Archive.org has snapshots going back several year. Just feed in the URL you 
posted, ad you’ll get a history that lets you download each version of the list 
that archive.org noticed changed. In my experience, that is pretty 
comprehensive.

 -mel beckman

> On Dec 15, 2018, at 12:31 AM, Lars Prehn  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> In order to sanitize historical BGP data I would like to use historical Bogon 
> lists. The CIDR report generates those lists on a daily basis (e.g. 
> https://www.cidr-report.org/bogons/freespace-dec.txt for prefixes) but, as 
> far as I know, it does not keep a history of those files - it only holds the 
> most up-to-date file. Does anybody know of a repository that contains such 
> bogon lists for historical data, or, did anybody continiously fecthed and 
> saved CIDR report's bogon lists?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Lars
> 

Re: historical Bogon lists

[Mel Beckman]

My understanding is that the calendar, which in this case showed a dozen or so 
copies, lists only crawled instances that had changed since The previous crawl. 
Well it certainly true that time elapses between each crawl, so it's possible 
that some changes could be missed, my understanding is that the Internet the 
scroll frequently enough that changes would be detected at least every month or 
so.

I think it's possible that the bogin list just doesn't change that frequently.

-mel via cell

> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:30 AM, Lars Prehn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mel,
> 
> I already checked Archive.org - it holds two previous copies.
> 
> >> lets you download each version of the list that archive.org noticed changed
> 
> According to Archive.org's own Note this seems to be inaccurate:
> This calendar view maps the number of times 
> https://www.cidr-report.org/bogons/freespace-dec.txt was crawled by the 
> Wayback Machine, not how many times the site was actually updated.
> 
> , or am I missing something?
> 
> Best regards,
> Lars
> 
>> Am 15.12.18 um 09:47 schrieb Mel Beckman:
>> Lars,
>> 
>> Archive.org has snapshots going back several year. Just feed in the URL you 
>> posted, ad you’ll get a history that lets you download each version of the 
>> list that archive.org noticed changed. In my experience, that is pretty 
>> comprehensive.
>> 
>>  -mel beckman
>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2018, at 12:31 AM, Lars Prehn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi everyone,
>>> 
>>> In order to sanitize historical BGP data I would like to use historical 
>>> Bogon lists. The CIDR report generates those lists on a daily basis (e.g. 
>>> https://www.cidr-report.org/bogons/freespace-dec.txt for prefixes) but, as 
>>> far as I know, it does not keep a history of those files - it only holds 
>>> the most up-to-date file. Does anybody know of a repository that contains 
>>> such bogon lists for historical data, or, did anybody continiously fecthed 
>>> and saved CIDR report's bogon lists?
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Lars
>>> 
> 

Re: CenturyLink

[Mel Beckman]

We have had great success with the TimeMachines TM1001A. Simple, robust, and 
over several years we’ve had zero outages on more than 40 installations. And 
unlike most of the competition, not ridiculously overpriced.

https://timemachinescorp.com/product/gps-time-server-tm1000a<https://timemachinescorp.com/product/gps-time-server-tm1000a/?_vsrefdom=adwords=CjwKCAiA9qHhBRB2EiwA7poaeP6WdNN-kfhXHj9agAvZwm5PKZf70nCzxPH5Wgm__2S6164H86uSwxoCmQgQAvD_BwE>

 -mel beckman

On Dec 30, 2018, at 6:40 AM, Shawn L via NANOG 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:


Speaking of GPS-enabled NTP appliances, etc. wondering what hardware people are 
using for this.



thanks



-Original Message-
From: "Raymond Burkholder" mailto:r...@oneunified.net>>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2018 12:01pm
To: "Matthew Huff" mailto:mh...@ox.com>>, 
"l...@satchell.net<mailto:l...@satchell.net>" 
mailto:l...@satchell.net>>, 
"nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>" 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: CenturyLink


On 2018-12-29 7:51 a.m., Matthew Huff wrote:
> We have two stratum-1 servers synced with GPS and a PTP feed from a provider 
> that also provides PTP to market data systems, but we still have to monitor 
> drift between system time and NIST time. Don't ask for the logic behind it, 
> it's a regulation, not a technical requirement.
>
On one occasion, due to bad firmware or a configuration issue, I have
seen GPS stratum 1 diverge from NTP.  It was somewhat eye brow raising
to the company.  My NTP monitored servers were shown to be diverging
their GPS/NTP, but after looking at twice or thrice, it was the other
way around.

Re: Puerto Rico Internet Exchange

[Mel Beckman]

Mehmet,

In general an IX only makes sense when there are local resources to exchange. 
It doesn’t seem like PR has a lot of, if any, content providers of its own, so 
most consumer content is coming from offshore anyway. Given modern DWDM fiber, 
backhauling all that content shouldn’t be an issue. I recall that in mid-2015 
PR landed the "most advanced undersea fiber-optic cable in the Caribbean and 
Central America”, uniting a total of seven countries and territories. The head 
end was at Telephonica’s data center. I remember in your Nanog talk ten years 
ago that you felt that peer-to-peer file sharing and VoIP were major bandwidth 
consumers, but I’ve never seen the actual statistics for that. But even if 
that’s the case, the small number of ISPs should be able to form and fund their 
own IX given a business need.

I’ve done work in the Dominican Republic, and they’re in a similar situation, 
with no real business interest in an IX.

You asked a pointed question: given its location, is an IX in PR necessary? I 
know you’re invested a ton of time and effort in making a PR exchange work, but 
I think you may already have the answer, given the low interest. That answer 
seems to be “no”.

Of course, if you can get some major content provider buy-n, that might make 
the business case more solid.

 -mel


On Sep 13, 2018, at 1:27 PM, Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:

It has been little over a year and we have been working on launching an 
internet exchange in puerto rico but of course hurricane and other things got 
in the way of achieving this.

We now have identified what we believe the right location (most of the isp’s 
have presence in this location) backbone/ip transit connectivity, local team to 
provide onsite support.

Having said that We have been engaged with several content delivery networks, 
OTTs but general feedback was that Puerto Rico was not on their radar for 2018 
hence delayed launch. Now we are talking to same players about 2019 but general 
answer seemed like people were satisfied enough to serve Puerto Rico from Miami.

Perhaps we are talking to really big CDNs, OTTs and we should engage 
differently however the level of interest is very low and I really don’t want 
to “build and they will come” again ;-)

Bottom line is, if there was an IXP in Puerto Rico similar to ones in Florida, 
I am trying to understand who would actually deploy (just speak to your company 
only please) because most of my assumptions were proven wrong ;-)

I guess I want to ask two questions, given its location in caribbean, does 
Puerto Rico need an internet exchange point? Would you join it?(it will be a 
membership based IXP where members share cost)

Mehmet

On Sat, Aug 12, 2017 at 4:27 AM Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:
Hey there!

... ok this time I am not going to call it PRIX ;) well name doesn't matter 
really. Nearly 13 years ago I have attempted to start Puerto rico Internet 
exchange in San Juan. I have lived there over 5 years and i just wanted to 
really watch videos faster. The project somewhat died when i moved to LA but 
now there are few interested party to start an internet exchange in Puerto 
rico. The jsland historically had one of the slowest broadband/internet 
services which seemed to have improved in recent years however as of 2017 there 
still is not an IX in Puerto rico.

We , 3-4 internet engineers (on island and remote) , want to look into relaunch 
of this IX and hopefully find a way to keep local traffic exchanged at high 
speeds and low cost. We need expertise, and people who want to help any way 
they can.

We are trying to make this IX a not-for-profit one and we are looking at 
opeeating models to adapt which has worked incredibly well like Seattle IX.

We are hoping the relaunch to happen sometime in 2018. Thanks in advance hope 
to share more info and traffic data sometime , soon. Watch this space!

Mehmet
--
Mehmet
+1-424-298-1903

Re: Puerto Rico Internet Exchange

[Mel Beckman]

Mike,

But why would you want, as a content provider, to have your content hosted on 
the island? Backhauling it over fiber is no big deal across the short distances 
involved. As far as I can tell, PR has a glut of ocean floor fiber capacity, 
just installed a couple years ago. We're not talking stock market trades here, 
where milliseconds matter. We're talking Netflix movie reruns, which could be 
easily delivered with seconds of latency.

Those who hold to the "if you build it they will come" business model forget 
that that model was a fantasy in a movie.

A movie currently being streamed to PR without difficulty :-)

-mel via cell

On Sep 14, 2018, at 6:14 AM, Mike Hammett 
mailto:na...@ics-il.net>> wrote:

Agreed. Very chicken or the egg. Any recently formed IX is largely a conduit 
for big content to connect to local eyeballs. As some critical mass of eyeballs 
is achieved, local content is interested as are large networks like Hurricane 
Electric.

In the case of PR, if there are no local content providers, an IX provides an 
avenue for one to form to connect to other operators on the island, avoiding 
underwater cables to the mainland. If I were a company in PR, I'd want my web 
site and other services hosted in PR, not Miami or Virginia.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL>
Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix>
The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
[http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
____________
From: "Sander Steffann" mailto:san...@steffann.nl>>
To: "Mel Beckman" mailto:m...@beckman.org>>
Cc: "nanog" mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2018 8:08:58 AM
Subject: Re: Puerto Rico Internet Exchange

Hi,

> In general an IX only makes sense when there are local resources to exchange. 
> It doesn’t seem like PR has a lot of, if any, content providers of its own, 
> so most consumer content is coming from offshore anyway.

This can also work the other way: once there is a local IXP, it can open 
opportunities for local content providers.

Cheers,
Sander

Re: Quick Script to check the uptime of ASR920's

[Mel Beckman]

I realize you’re aiming for the NETCONF paradigm, but for anyone interested, a 
more consistent, device- and release-independent method is to just query the 
SNMP uptime variable:


$ snmpget -v 1 -c demopublic 10.1.2.1 system.sysUpTime.0

system.sysUpTime.0 = Timeticks: (586731977) 67 days, 21:48:39.77



 -mel beckman

On Feb 20, 2019, at 11:00 AM, Benoit Claise via NANOG 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote:

Erik,

Just in case you want to go into/learn the data model-driven management, here 
is a NETCONF/YANG script.

CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF) 
dvulovic@DVULOVIC-D2DW2:~/python-venv/CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF$ 
./CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF.py testinput

CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF by Djordje Vulovic 
(dvulo...@cisco.com<mailto:dvulo...@cisco.com>)



Router 10.1.2.1 has uptime of 5724548.0 seconds (66 days, 6:09:08)

Router 10.1.2.2 has uptime of 5724551.0 seconds (66 days, 6:09:11)

Router 10.1.2.3 has uptime of 5724555.0 seconds (66 days, 6:09:15)

Router 10.1.2.4 has uptime of 5724557.0 seconds (66 days, 6:09:17)

Router 10.1.2.5 has uptime of 5724497.0 seconds (66 days, 6:08:17)


(CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF) 
dvulovic@DVULOVIC-D2DW2:~/python-venv/CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF$ 
./CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF.py

CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF by Djordje Vulovic 
(dvulo...@cisco.com<mailto:dvulo...@cisco.com>)



Usage: CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF 

File consists of lines ,,,


The script was tested on a real ASR920, running IOS 16.8.1
See the source code at 
https://github.com/djordjevulovic/CiscoRouterUptimeNETCONF

Thanks to Djordje for developing this script.

Regards, Benoit

All,

I just created a quick script to check the uptime of a ASR920 via SNMP if you 
have a fairly long list of devices. It's a simple bash script and snmpwalk 
version 2c. Figured I would share it with you. Happy Friday

Grab the code from GitHub: https://github.com/esundberg/CiscoRouterUptime
It's a quick and dirty script and my first repo on github. Let me know if there 
any issues with it.


Output Format in CSV
DeviceName, IP, Uptime in Days, OK/Warning

I set my warning to 800 Days, you can change this in the code


ASR920list.txt
-
ASR920-1.SEA1, 192.168.28.1, SuperSecretSNMPKey
ASR920-2.SEA1, 192.168.28.2, SuperSecretSNMPKey
snip you get the idea


Output

[user@Linux]$ ./CiscoRouterUptime.sh ASR920list.txt
ASR920-1.SEA1, 192.168.28.1, 827, WARNING
ASR920-2.SEA1, 192.168.28.2, 827, WARNING
ASR920-2.ATL1, 192.168.23.2, 828, WARNING
ASR920-1.ATL1, 192.168.23.1, 813, WARNING
ASR920-1.CHI1, 192.168.21.3, 828, WARNING
ASR920-1.NYC1, 192.168.25.1, 787, OK
ASR920-2.CHI1, 192.168.21.4, 720, OK
ASR920-3.CHI1, 192.168.21.5, 720, OK
ASR920-1.DAL1, 192.168.26.3, 488, OK
ASR920-4.CHI1, 192.168.21.6, 142, OK





CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or 
previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information 
that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person 
responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby 
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information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY 
PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error please notify the 
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transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. Thank 
you.
.

Re: Apple devices spoofing default gateway?

[Mel Beckman]

Can you post some packet captures? 

I was a network engineer on the WiFi network at SFO, for both passengers and 
baggage scanners, with several hundred APs. Several times we were misled by 
packet captures that seemed to show client traffic causing network problems, 
such as packet storms, but which ultimately always had some more mundane cause, 
like a failed DHCP server or flapping switch interface. 

The particular SFO network I worked on has Juniper switching and Aruba APs, so 
it’s not directly applicable to your ecosystem. But the complexities of 
interpreting packet captures may apply.

 -mel beckman

> On Mar 14, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Simon Lockhart  wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> We're seeing a bit of a weird one on our network at the moment, and wondering
> if anyone else has seen it.
> 
> Since Friday we're seeing Apple devices (we believe it's both laptops and 
> iPhones) responding to ARP requests for the default gateway IP with their own
> MAC address (i.e. ARP spoofing / MITM type attack). We're only seeing it on
> Apple devices, but what's more strange is that we're only seeing it where 
> those Apple devices are connected to Cisco 1810 and 1815 APs, and where those
> APs are connected to a Cisco WLC running v8.5 software. If we downgrade the
> WLC to v8.2 the problem goes away (but v8.2 doesn't support 1815 APs, so we 
> can't roll that out globally). We're engaged with Cisco TAC, but they're 
> trying to deny it's their problem. Apple support are investigating, but aren't
> admitting to having seen it before.
> 
> Has anyone else seen or heard of similar issues over the last few days?
> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Simon

Re: Apple devices spoofing default gateway?

[Mel Beckman]

You asked if anyone else has seen this. It’s possibly going on in other 
networks but nobody is noticing. What symptoms brought the problem to your 
attention?

You can sanitize the packet captures by limiting them to just the headers. The 
payloads are likely not useful for troubleshooting anyway, since this seems to 
be a Layer 2 problem. You asked for help, and sanitized packets would help 
people help you :)

 -mel

> On Mar 14, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Simon Lockhart  wrote:
> 
> On Thu Mar 14, 2019 at 12:53:01PM +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> Can you post some packet captures? 
> 
> I have some packet captures, but as they're from a live network, I'd rather
> not post them publicly.
> 
>> I was a network engineer on the WiFi network at SFO, for both passengers and
>> baggage scanners, with several hundred APs. Several times we were misled by
>> packet captures that seemed to show client traffic causing network problems,
>> such as packet storms, but which ultimately always had some more mundane
>> cause, like a failed DHCP server or flapping switch interface. 
> 
> Sure - we're rattling every possible other cause we can think of, including
> using alternative DHCP server software vendor, etc. The only thing that's
> reliably making the problem go away is running the APs against WLC version 
> 8.2.
> 
>> The particular SFO network I worked on has Juniper switching and Aruba APs,
>> so it???s not directly applicable to your ecosystem. But the complexities of
>> interpreting packet captures may apply.
> 
> I'm the sort of person who has copies of RFCs printed out on his desk. I'm 
> fairly experienced at interpreting packet captures :)
> 
> Simon

Re: fs.com dwdm equipment

[Mel Beckman]

We’ve purchased many SFP modules from fs.com for Cisco gear, and 
the only problem we run into is that Cisco IOS seem unwilling to expose the 
error counters via SNMP. This is kind of annoying, because that’s how we get 
early warning of fiber problems. I suspect IOS does this deliberately because 
it notices the module is not OEM. But the cost savings with 
fs.com is tremendous, so we put up with this inconvenience.

On a side note, their sales support is always prompt and very personable. 
Technical support seems to be limited to offering free advance warranty 
replacement shipping. With a few hundred modules, we’ve had maybe two dead 
ones. So less than 1% iinfant mortality on pretty complex optics.

 -mel

On Feb 17, 2019, at 9:01 PM, David S. 
mailto:da...@zeromail.us>> wrote:

They have solid product and good support, I bought many SFP+ for Nexus, 
Juniper, Force10 and never had a problem with them.
HTH


Best regards,
David S.

e. da...@zeromail.us
w. pnyet.web.id
p. 087881216110


On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:23 AM Michel Blais 
mailto:mic...@targointernet.com>> wrote:
I tryed SFP, MUX, DEMUX and OADM, all working as expected.

Le dim. 17 févr. 2019 19 h 18, Samir Rana 
mailto:samir.r...@cybera.ca>> a écrit :
Hello All,

Does anybody have experience with fs.com dwdm equipment in their 
production environment? Are you they working without any issue? How's their 
warranty support if the issue arises?

Thanks in advance for all the answers and help.

Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Mel Beckman]

When AI robots take over a regional registry, let us know. In the current 
world, there is no such thing as AI robots running any bureaucracy. They’re all 
run by fallible humans, and only humans are to blame. In this case, European 
humans. :)

 -mel

> On Feb 15, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Carsten Bormann  wrote:
> 
>> On Feb 15, 2019, at 16:46, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>> 
>> rant not operational, it’s not even North American
> 
> While that is true, an event where a regional registry has been taken over by 
> (badly programmed) AI robots should be very much of interest both 
> operationally and for North Americans.
> 
> Grüße, Carsten
> 

Re: OT/venting: RIPE legal - please stop this madness!

[Mel Beckman]

Sorry, but not only is your giant bolus of a rant not operational, it’s not 
even North American. Please respect the boundaries of our group and keep your 
venting in Europe where it belongs. This isn’t a flame, it’s just a polite 
request that you knock it off. 

 -mel beckman

> On Feb 15, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Markus  wrote:
> 
> Hi list!
> 
> The following is off-topic/venting. It's about RIPE and my company in 
> Germany. If you don't care about this even remotely, don't read on and don't 
> flame me. I'm just so pissed and I have no other connection to the ISP (and 
> related) community than the NANOG mailing list and I know there are some 
> other European ISPs on this list. Here goes:
> 
> 
> My company has been a RIPE LIR for 17 years now. This week was the first time 
> ever that I became, was and still am really, really pissed at RIPE.
> 
> There's some madness going on in RIPEs legal department. It appears they 
> recently hired some retard who now wants to prove he/she is a smartass. Harsh 
> words, but I have no other explanation for what's going on right  now!
> 
> Here's the story:
> 
> Sunday, 10th February, 17:08 CET: I sent away the online application for an 
> additional LIR account. Automatic E-Mail confirmation received.
> 
> Monday, 11th February, 15:07 CET: I didn't receive a human reply yet, and 
> since the business day was nearing its end, I mailed them about the status, 
> and asked whether I could come by their Amsterdam office the next day to sign 
> the required documents - in order to speed up the whole process.
> 
> Monday, 11th February, 15:57 CET: Reply from RIPE. Let me just copy and 
> paste: "I regret to inform you that we do not offer the possibility to sign 
> your contracts in our office and regrettably there is no option to speed up 
> the application procedure." - Ok, no biggie. But then:
> 
> 
> Quote start.
> 
> "We can see that this is an additional LIR account for Lightup Network 
> Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> 
> We are currently reviewing applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH & Co. 
> KG' together with our legal department and they have stated the following: 
> "GmbH & Co. KG" is a sub-form of a "KG" (partnership).
> 
> It normally consists of a general partner and one or more limited partners, 
> which can be legal or natural persons.
> 
> According to "Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration 
> Data" the signing party of an agreement can either be a legal or a natural 
> person. A "KG" is not considered a legal person and cant be the signing party 
> in our agreements.
> 
> The agreement can be signed though by one of the legal or natural persons 
> that are partners (general or limited). We therefore cannot register Lightup 
> Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> 
> As you already have an LIR account with us, we will have to update your 
> existing account, de.lightupnet, before we can register this second account 
> for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG.
> 
> I created a new ticket for your company update and my colleagues will contact 
> you shortly for the update."
> 
> Quote end.
> 
> 
> That didn't sound so good. I've had a company with the legal form GmbH & Co. 
> KG (it's a German company) for about 15 years now and my initial gut feeling 
> was "That's just plain bullsh*t!".
> 
> 
> Tuesday, 12th February, 12:30: I receive another E-Mail. New ticket, as they 
> promised.
> 
> 
> Quote start.
> 
> "It has come to our attention, that the legal name of your LIR account has 
> been registered incorrectly.
> 
> It was advised by our Legal Department that the legal form of your company as 
> "GmbH & Co. KG" is a form of a general partnership that does not have a legal 
> personality.
> 
> If there is a document proving opposite, please send it to us. According to 
> our procedure, we can only sign an agreement with a legal person that has a 
> legal personality or a natural person.
> 
> Therefore, we will have to correct your legal name to  as "Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG">, instead of  Solutions GmbH & Co. KG>."
> 
> Quote end.
> 
> 
> They also asked that I upload a photo/scan of my passport, which I did. I 
> just thought: Ok, let them have their way. If they want to change my LIRs 
> description, who really cares. All I want is to create a 2nd LIR and speed 
> this whole thing up. But, since they want to be SO LEGALLY CORRECT, I replied 
> and mentioned the following. Let me copy and paste.
> 
> 
> Quote start.
> 
> "I just uploaded my passport.
> 
> However, 

Re: [ROUTING] Settle a pointless debate - more commonly used routing protocol in total deployments - OSPF vs IS-IS

[Mel Beckman]

Why would you want to settle a pointless debate? :)

 -mel beckman

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:45 AM, Tom Hill  wrote:
> 
>> On 25/01/2019 04:47, Steven Bahnsen wrote:
>> First time poster looking for some input on a debate
> 
> 
> This won't settle anything. You've just started the same old debate
> again, from the beginning. Again. :)
> 
> There are almost certainly indexed threads of this mailing list with
> enough answers to this question to last a life time of arguments. (See
> also, c-nsp, probably j-nsp, UKNOF, etc.)
> 
> -- 
> Tom

Re: Effects of Cold Front on Internet Infrastructure - U.S. Midwest

[Mel Beckman]

Being a Minnesota native, I can tell you that while it is indeed cold, this is 
nothing new i the Great White North :)  I am amaze a how consistently the media 
overplays the severity of Midwest cold weather as some kind of unique 
phenomenon. They amplify this by reporting the wind-chill factor, which is the 
“what it feels like” equivalent in a cold and windy environment. But equipment 
feels nothing, so windchill is irrelevant.

For example, Minneapolis is -20F, but the news media instead reports “-60F wind 
chill”, which, while dramatic, is not meaningful for most purposes. I grew up 
in Minnesota with -30F and lower quite common, and we walked to school in those 
temperatures. You just have to dress well. Minneapolis is paved with tunnels 
and heated skyways to eliminate most outdoor walking downtown.

As far as networks go, none of the ISPs I know of do anything different than 
anywhere else in the country. Everyone has backup power. It’s already common 
practice everywhere to exploit cooler winter ambient temperatures to reduce 
HVAC requirements, so that’s not new either. But it gets as hot in the Midwest 
in our summer as it is in SA for you now, so everyone must still build out HVAC 
capacity to cover the hottest days.

 -mel beckman

On Jan 30, 2019, at 8:40 AM, Mark Tinka 
mailto:mark.ti...@seacom.mu>> wrote:

For anyone running IP networks in the Midwest, are you having to do anything 
special to keep your networks up?

For the data centres, is this cold front a chance to reduce air conditioning 
costs, or is it actually straining the infrastructure?

I'm curious, from a +27-degree C summer's day here in Johannesburg.

Mark.

Re: Effects of Cold Front on Internet Infrastructure - U.S. Midwest

[Mel Beckman]

Fletcher,

I don’t think that’s true. I find no specs on fiber dB loss being a function of 
ambient temperature. I do find fiber optic application data sheets for extreme 
temperature applications of -500F and +500F (spacecraft). You’d think if 
temperature affected fiber transmission characteristics, they’d see it in space.

What you likely were seeing was connector loss, owing either to improper 
installation, incorrect materials, or unheated regen enclosures.

Insertion loss (IL) failures, for instance, in the cold are a direct result of 
cable termination component shrinkage. That’s why regen and patch enclosures 
need to be heated as well as cooled.

All fiber termination components have stated temperature limits. As 
temperatures approach -40F, the thermoplastic components in a cable's breakout, 
jacketing, and fiber fanout sections shrink more than the optical glass. 
Ruggedized connectors help somewhat, but the rule is that you can’t let optical 
connectors and assemblies get really cold (or really hot).

A typical spec for a single-mode OSP connector is:

Operating -30C (-22F) to +60C (+140F)

The range for the corresponding Single Mode fiber is:

Operating -55C (-67F) to +70C (+158F)
Storage -60C (-76F) to +70C (+158F)
Installation -30C (-22F) to +50C (+122F)

All professional outside plant engineers know these requirements. So if you’re 
seeing failures, somebody is breaking a rule.

 -mel


On Jan 30, 2019, at 3:05 PM, Fletcher Kittredge 
mailto:fkitt...@gwi.net>> wrote:


Cold changes the transmission characteristics of fiber. At one point we were 
renting some old dark fiber from the local telephone company in northern Maine. 
When it would get below -15%-degree F the dB would get bad enough that the link 
using that fiber would stop working. The telephone company was selling us dark 
fiber because regulation required them to. They refused to give us another 
fiber nor inspect/repair. They took the position they were required to sell us 
fiber, not working fiber.


On Wed, Jan 30, 2019 at 11:41 AM Mark Tinka 
mailto:mark.ti...@seacom.mu>> wrote:
For anyone running IP networks in the Midwest, are you having to do anything 
special to keep your networks up?

For the data centres, is this cold front a chance to reduce air conditioning 
costs, or is it actually straining the infrastructure?

I'm curious, from a +27-degree C summer's day here in Johannesburg.

Mark.


--
Fletcher Kittredge
GWI
207-602-1134
www.gwi.net

Re: Any detail on 3356 outage this morning?

[Mel Beckman]

Yeah, it was obviously only in Greenwich, UK. :)

-mel via cell

On Feb 5, 2019, at 7:13 AM, David Hubbard 
mailto:dhubb...@dino.hostasaurus.com>> wrote:

Curious if anyone has detail on the cause of the CenturyLink/L3 outage this 
morning?  Their master ticket response is not exactly confidence inspiring; 
hey, routers nationwide decided to reboot, but don’t worry, service was 
restored with no manual intervention….


*** CASCADED EXTERNAL NOTES 05-Feb-2019 14:06:31 GMT From CASE: 15846504 - Event
Event Conclusion Summary

Outage Start: February 05, 2019 11:00 GMT
Outage Stop: February 05, 2019 12:37 GMT

Root Cause: Multiple devices rebooted impacting IP services in multiple markets.
Fix Action: Services restored with no CenturyLink intervention.

Reason for Outage (RFO) Summary: On February 05, 2018 at 11:00 GMT, CenturyLink 
identified a service impact in all markets network wide. The IP NOC reported 
multiple devices rebooted impacting IP services in multiple markets. Services 
restored on their with no CenturyLink intervention. The IP NOC engaged the 
equipment vendor, Tier III Technical Support, and Operations Engineering to 
conduct a post analysis review of the incident.

This service impact has concluded; if additional issues are experienced, please 
contact the CenturyLink Repair Center.

Re: Quick Script to check the uptime of ASR920's

[Mel Beckman]

Erik,

That’s a nice little script. Thanks!

So you want a warning if a router hasn’t been rebooted in a long time?  Just 
out of curiosity, why? I’m kind of glad that my routers don’t reboot, pretty 
much ever. Usually I want to know if the uptime suddenly became less than the 
most recent uptime, indicting a possibly unplanned reboot.

 -mel

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 4:29 PM, Erik Sundberg  wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> I just created a quick script to check the uptime of a ASR920 via SNMP if you 
> have a fairly long list of devices. It's a simple bash script and snmpwalk 
> version 2c. Figured I would share it with you. Happy Friday
> 
> Grab the code from GitHub: https://github.com/esundberg/CiscoRouterUptime
> It's a quick and dirty script and my first repo on github. Let me know if 
> there any issues with it.
> 
> 
> Output Format in CSV
> DeviceName, IP, Uptime in Days, OK/Warning
> 
> I set my warning to 800 Days, you can change this in the code
> 
> 
> ASR920list.txt
> -
> ASR920-1.SEA1, 192.168.28.1, SuperSecretSNMPKey
> ASR920-2.SEA1, 192.168.28.2, SuperSecretSNMPKey
> snip you get the idea
> 
> 
> Output
> 
> [user@Linux]$ ./CiscoRouterUptime.sh ASR920list.txt
> ASR920-1.SEA1, 192.168.28.1, 827, WARNING
> ASR920-2.SEA1, 192.168.28.2, 827, WARNING
> ASR920-2.ATL1, 192.168.23.2, 828, WARNING
> ASR920-1.ATL1, 192.168.23.1, 813, WARNING
> ASR920-1.CHI1, 192.168.21.3, 828, WARNING
> ASR920-1.NYC1, 192.168.25.1, 787, OK
> ASR920-2.CHI1, 192.168.21.4, 720, OK
> ASR920-3.CHI1, 192.168.21.5, 720, OK
> ASR920-1.DAL1, 192.168.26.3, 488, OK
> ASR920-4.CHI1, 192.168.21.6, 142, OK
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or 
> previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain confidential information 
> that is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a 
> person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are 
> hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of 
> the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY 
> PROHIBITED. If you have received this transmission in error please notify the 
> sender immediately by replying to this e-mail. You must destroy the original 
> transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. 
> Thank you.

Re: Power cut if temps are too high

[Mel Beckman]

We considered this approach, but we wanted to have notifications precede shut 
down, and give a remote support person the ability to prevent the shut down. 
Our SNMP based system gives us that option.

 -mel 

> On May 27, 2019, at 11:16 AM, Brian Kantor  wrote:
> 
> A simple air conditioner thermostat wired to the EPO switch.
> For safety, wire two thermostats in series so BOTH have to trip
> before power is shut off.
> 
> Note that the EPO rarely does an orderly shutdown, but then this
> is a sort of an emergency.
>- Brian
> 
> 
>> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 02:00:39PM -0400, Dovid Bender wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Is anyone aware of a device that will cut the power if the room goes above X
>> degrees? I am looking for something as a just in case. 
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Dovid
>> 

Re: Power cut if temps are too high

[Mel Beckman]

Most EPO “mushroom” buttons can be wired either NO or NC. 

-mel via cell

> On May 27, 2019, at 3:27 PM, Brian Kantor  wrote:
> 
> I was assuming the EPO trigger is a circuit that is normally OPEN
> and is closed when the button is pushed.
> 
> If instead, it is a normally-CLOSED circuit, then you are correct,
> you would want two thermostats that both OPENED when the temperature
> rose, which would typically be HEATING thermostats, not AIR CONDITIONING
> thermostats.
> 
> Either method could have been installed; in the computer room I
> worked in, the EPO was a normally-open circuit that closed when you
> hit any one of the buttons placed around the room and at the exits.
> 
> Or indeed, if the fire suppression system triggered.
>- Brian
> 
>> On Mon, May 27, 2019 at 06:10:49PM -0400, Brandon Ross wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 May 2019, Brian Kantor wrote:
>>> 
>>> A simple air conditioner thermostat wired to the EPO switch.
>>> For safety, wire two thermostats in series so BOTH have to trip
>>> before power is shut off.
>> 
>> Admittedly it's been a long time since I worked with basic circuitry, but 
>> wouldn't wiring them in series cause the circuit to be interrupted if 
>> EITHER thermostat tripped?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Brandon RossYahoo:  BrandonNRoss
>> Voice:  +1-404-635-6667ICQ:  2269442
>> Signal Secure SMS, Viber, Whatsapp:  +1-404-644-9628 Skype:  brandonross
>> Schedule a meeting:  http://www.doodle.com/bross

Re: Power cut if temps are too high

[Mel Beckman]

We use Intermapper, an SNMP network monitoring system, which supports UNIX 
scripting. Intermapper probes two Weathergoose temperature sensors, and calls a 
script with the values it retrieves. When both sensors exceed a certain 
threshold, the script sends an snmp relay trip signal to the Weathergoosen, 
which close a pair of dry contacts wired in series to the emergency power off 
contacts for the whole-room UPS.

We chose to use two sensors and two dry contact relays to protect against false 
trips, and thus false shut downs. Before the trigger temperature is reached, 
the NMS would have sent various escalating alarms to on call staffers, who 
hopefully would intervene before this point. This protection is for the worst 
case scenario where nobody responds and the equipment is at risk of damage.

We could have commanded an orderly shut down to all servers, but decided that 
it would be better to kill the power in the event of a runaway heat vent than 
to try to make it through all the disk activity necessary for a clean shut down.

This system has triggered one time, successfully shutting down the data center 
on a holiday weekend when people missed their notifications, and undoubtedly 
saved a lot of hard drives. When we got to the room the temperature was over 
115°, but the power was cut at 95°.

 -mel

On May 27, 2019, at 11:01 AM, Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:

Hi,

Is anyone aware of a device that will cut the power if the room goes above X 
degrees? I am looking for something as a just in case.


Regards,

Dovid

Re: DOs and DONTs for small ISP

[Mel Beckman]

I’m constantly amazed at the number of even medium-sized ISPs that have no 
network monitoring. An NMS should go in as the first software component — 
before billing starts and the provider is on the hook to deliver. 

The second lacking component is a ticket system, which is silly because turnkey 
cloud services are not expensive, and open source solutions abound for 
budget-limited operators. 

The third component failure is security, including weak and default (!) 
passwords, failure to use real certificates, and the complete lack of 2FA or 
MFA. Security also requires data surveillance, in the form of net flow analysis.

The “two guys and a router” business model must be upgraded with more planning 
and a cohesive operating plan.

 -mel 

> On Jun 3, 2019, at 5:05 AM, Mehmet Akcin  wrote:
> 
> hi there,
> 
> I know there are folks from lots of small ISPs here and I wanted to check-in 
> on asking few advice points as I am involved building an ISP from green-field.
> 
> Usually, it's pretty straight forward to cover high-level important things, 
> filters, routing policies, etc.but we all know the devil is in the details. 
> 
> I am putting together a public DOs and DONTs blog post and would love to hear 
> from those who have built ISPs and have recommendations from Billing to 
> Interconnection, Routing policy to Out of the band  & console setup, Software 
> recommendations, etc. Bottom line is that I would like to publish a checklist 
> with these recommendations which I hope will be useful for all. 
> 
> thanks in advance for your help and recommendation.
> 
> Mehmet
> 
> 

Re: BGP prefix filter list

[Mel Beckman]

"Citation needed". :-)  How is it clear that the vast majority are
following this?

Uh, because the Internet works? Think about it. If an AS advertises prefixes 
that can’t be reached through all of its border routers, those prefixes would 
lose packets.

But I don’t need to provide a citation. The burden of proof is on the person 
making the assertion, and the assertion by Bill was that having disconnected 
prefixes in an AS was common. That’s the assertion that needs a citation. My 
statement is just an opinion that it is clear that  most AS’s are following the 
standard.

And we’re not talking about single-homed AS’s using private ASNs. Those are 
definition excluded, because, being single homed, there is only one path to 
their prefixes.

Any organization that has multiple sites with their own Internet
connections, would then need an AS number for each site.

What are you talking about? Do you use multi homed BGP? If so, I’d expect you 
to know that an organization with multiple sites having their own Internet 
still uses a single AS. They have IGP paths to route traffic between sites 
(e.g., by using dedicated circuits).

 -mel

On May 30, 2019, at 3:55 PM, Thomas Bellman 
mailto:bell...@nsc.liu.se>> wrote:

On 2019-05-30 20:00 +0000, Mel Beckman wrote:

I’m sure we can find corner cases, but it’s clear that the vast
 ^
majority of BGP users are following the standard.

"Citation needed". :-)  How is it clear that the vast majority are
following this?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if it *is* literally true; e.g,
quite a lot of BGP users are probably single-homed and thus are
forced to use private ASNs for talking BGP to their ISP; and lots
of BGP users are also single-site, and don't engage in traffic
engineering.

But those cases are also not very interresting for this.  It is
more interresting to look at those that according to RFC 1930
*should* use multiple ASNs; how many of those *do* have separate
ASNs for each group of prefixes with a "single and clearly defined
routing policy", and how many *don't*?

Any organization that has multiple sites with their own Internet
connections, would then need an AS number for each site.  How many
people follow that?  Can I get multiple ASNs from RIPE/ARIN/et.c
for this case?  (That's an honest question; the policies I found
does mention sites or connected groups of networks, but they also
mention organizations in a way that makes me wonder.)

As others have mentioned, if you do traffic engineering by announcing
prefixes with e.g. different BGP communities, or different amounts of
ASN prefixing, you should according to RFC 1930 get a separate ASN
for each unique combination of communities and ASN prefixing.  Will
RIPE/APNIC/et.c grant us multiple ASNs for that?  I kind of suspect
that we would be told to get lost if we requested 256 ASNs from RIPE
for traffic engineering our /16 into 256 /24:s...


   /Bellman

Re: BGP prefix filter list

[Mel Beckman]

No, that's not the situation being discussed. As I've pointed out, a multi 
homed AS without an IGP connecting all prefixes is non-compliant with the BGP 
definition of an AS. Your Tokyo/DC example is additionally non-compliant 
because it doesn't have a single routing policy. It has two policies. That this 
may work in certain circumstances doesn't make it compliant with the standard.


I can stop a car by throwing out a boat anchor, but that doesn't comply with 
DOT standards for braking :)


From: Valdis Kletnieks  on behalf of Valdis Klētnieks 

Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 5:58:34 PM
To: Mel Beckman
Cc: Thomas Bellman; nanog@nanog.org
Subject: Re: BGP prefix filter list

On Fri, 31 May 2019 00:10:42 -, Mel Beckman said:
> What are you talking about? Do you use multi homed BGP? If so, I???d expect 
> you
> to know that an organization with multiple sites having their own Internet
> still uses a single AS. They have IGP paths to route traffic between sites
> (e.g., by using dedicated circuits).

The situation being discussed is an organization with multiple sites that 
*don't*
have a behind-the-scenes dedicated circuit, tunnel, or other interconnect.

For example, XYZ Corp has a POP in Tokyo announcing a /16 to their provider
there, and a POP in DC announcing a different /16 to their North American
provider, using the same ASN for both - but traffic between the two /16s
traverses the commodity Internet.

Or they advertise the same /16 and pray to the anycast gods. :)

(Actually, that's OK too, as long as both Tokyo and DC also announce a second
route (possibly a more-specific, or different address space) for their 
interconnect
needs)

Re: BGP prefix filter list

[Mel Beckman]

Yes, my original quote wasn’t exactly word-for-word from the standard, but it 
was semantically identical.

I’m sure we can find corner cases, but it’s clear that the vast majority of BGP 
users are following the standard.  Anycast isn’t a violation of the standards 
because it’s defined in BGP as a single destination address having multiple 
routing paths to two or more endpoints.

 -mel

On May 30, 2019, at 12:48 PM, William Herrin 
mailto:b...@herrin.us>> wrote:

> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:58 AM Mel Beckman 
> mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:
> > Come on now. The definition of an autonomous system is well established in 
> > RFC1930, which is still Best Current Practice:
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1930#section-3

Your quote wasn't from the RFC. Sorry, my google fu is only good enough to find 
your actual quote, not the similar one you didn't reference.

> > An AS is a connected group of one or more IP prefixes run by one
> >   or more network operators which has a SINGLE and CLEARLY DEFINED
> >   routing policy.

Interesting but it bears little resemblance to modern practice. Consider an 
anycast announcement, for example, where multiple distributed servers at 
isolated pops terminate the packet. Consider Amazon where both region-local 
unicast announcements and global anycast announcements all originate from AS 
16509. Indeed the whole concept of traffic engineering rests on the premise 
that an AS' routing policy is NOT the same at every border.

Regsards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us<mailto:b...@herrin.us>
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: BGP prefix filter list

[Mel Beckman]

Bill,

Are your sure about your Error #2, where you say "Prefixes from the same AS are 
not required to have direct connectivity to each other and many do not."?

From BGP definitions:

The AS represents a connected group of one or more blocks of IP addresses, 
called IP prefixes, that have been assigned to that organization and provides a 
single routing policy to systems outside the AS.

“...a connected group..." implies that all the prefixes in an AS must have 
direct connectivity to each other (direct meaning within the IGP of the AS). I 
realize that some AS’s have hot backup facilities that they advertise with 
heavy prefixing, but in my experience, the backup facility must still be 
interconnected with the rest of the AS, because prefixing doesn’t guarantee no 
packets will its that border router.

 -mel


On May 30, 2019, at 9:54 AM, William Herrin 
mailto:b...@herrin.us>> wrote:



On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 8:30 AM Robert Blayzor 
mailto:rblayzor.b...@inoc.net>> wrote:
On 5/24/19 2:22 PM, William Herrin wrote:
> Get it? I announce the /24 via both so that you can reach me when there
> is a problem with one or the other. If you drop the /24, you break the
> Internet when my connection to CenturyLink is inoperable. Good job!


It would be dropped only if the origin-as was the same. Your AS and your
carriers aggregate announcement would be from two different origin AS.
At least that's the gist of it...

Hi Robert,

Error #1: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6996 section 4.

It's permissible to announce to your transits with a private AS which they 
remove before passing the announcement to the wider Internet. As a result, the 
announcement from each provider will have that provider's origin AS when you 
see it even though it's actually from a downstream multihomed customer.

Error #2: An AS is an informative handle, not a route. In routing research 
parlance, an identifier not a locator. Prefixes from the same AS are not 
required to have direct connectivity to each other and many do not. The origin 
AS could solve this by disaggregating the announcement and sending no covering 
route, but that's exactly what you DON'T want them to do.

Regards,
Bill Herrin


--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: BGP prefix filter list

[Mel Beckman]

Bill,

Come on now. The definition of an autonomous system is well established in 
RFC1930, which is still Best Current Practice:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1930#section-3

An AS is a connected group of one or more IP prefixes run by one
  or more network operators which has a SINGLE and CLEARLY DEFINED
  routing policy.

This is not an “approximate explanation“. It’s a standard, as strong as any 
standard that exists for the Internet.

How is your statement "Prefixes from the same AS are not required to have 
direct connectivity to each other and many do not” supported by the published 
standard? :-)

 -mel

On May 30, 2019, at 10:42 AM, William Herrin 
mailto:b...@herrin.us>> wrote:

> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:11 AM Mel Beckman 
> mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:
> > Are your sure about your Error #2, where you say "Prefixes from the same AS 
> > are not required to have direct connectivity to each other and many do 
> > not."?
> >
> > From BGP definitions:
> >
> > The AS represents a connected group of one or more blocks of IP addresses, 
> > called IP prefixes, that have been assigned to that organization and 
> > provides a single routing policy to systems outside the AS.

From -what- BGP definitions? This one? 
https://www.scribd.com/document/202454953/Computer-Networking-Definitions

Lots of things get claimed in books and CS courses that are neither reflected 
in the standards nor match universal practice. Heck, most networking courses 
still teach class A, B and C... definitions which were explicitly invalidated a 
quarter of a century ago.

Even where authors are knowledgeable, they're constrained to present 
approximate explanations lest the common use get lost in the minutiae. When you 
want to act on the knowledge in an unusual way, you do not have that luxury. 
The experts in the IRTF Routing Research Group spent something like 6 years 
trying to find a way to filter the BGP RIB in the middle without damaging the 
Internet. They came up with zip. A big zero. They all but proved that it's 
impossible to build a routing protocol that aggregates anything anywhere but at 
the edges while still obeying the most basic policy constraints like not 
stealing transit. Forget getting BGP to do it, they couldn't come up with an 
entirely new protocol that did better.

Regards,
Bill Herrin

--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us<mailto:b...@herrin.us>
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: Postmaster@

[Mel Beckman]

Postmaster@ is so widely spammed as to be useless. Standards, and even laws, 
can be overcome by reality. Witness the DoNotCall list.

 -mel beckman

> On Jun 14, 2019, at 6:45 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo All!
> 
> Is it no longer required to monitor the postmaster@ ?
> 
> Did RFC 822 and RFC 5321 get repealed?  Or is M$ more special than the
> rest of us?
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
> 
>Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin
> 
> 
> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2019 01:38:16 +
> From: The Outlook.com Team 
> To: 
> Subject: Fw: gem : rellim541
> 
> 
> This email address is not monitored. Please visit
> http://postmaster.outlook.com for information about sending email to
> Outlook.com, including troubleshooting information. If you are an
> Outlook.com user please visit http://answers.microsoft.com/ to learn
> more about our services, find answers to your questions, and share your
> feedback.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Outlook.com Team
> Microsoft
> One Microsoft Way. Redmond, WA 98052, USA.
> 
> 
> 
> Microsoft respects your privacy. To learn more, please read our online
> Privacy Statement at http://privacy.microsoft.com

Re: Public Subnet re-assignments

[Mel Beckman]

You’re using just the two middle IPs in the four that make up the /30 set, 
right? IOW, the subnet x.x.x.0/30 should have .0 and .3 unused (they’re 
broadcast), and you use .1 and .2.

 -mel

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Scott  wrote:
> 
> First, sorry if this is a bit of a noob question.
> 
> I'm trying to find a way of preventing a slew of traffic to an IP, or
> IP's, when I join two /30 public subnets to a /29. It appears that while
> the ranges are /30 someone is trying to brute-force the network and/or
> broadcast addresses for the ranges. When I change them to be a /29, now
> the router sees the traffic and starts dropping packets. Are there any
> suggestions for mitigating this behavior or is it just the nature of the
> beast?
> 
> -- 
> 101010
> 
> 

Re: Public Subnet re-assignments

[Mel Beckman]

Also, what do you mean by “join to /30 public subnets to a /29”? You can’t 
overlap subnets, if that’s what you’re thinking.

 -mel

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 3:27 PM, Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
> You’re using just the two middle IPs in the four that make up the /30 set, 
> right? IOW, the subnet x.x.x.0/30 should have .0 and .3 unused (they’re 
> broadcast), and you use .1 and .2.
> 
> -mel
> 
>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Scott  wrote:
>> 
>> First, sorry if this is a bit of a noob question.
>> 
>> I'm trying to find a way of preventing a slew of traffic to an IP, or
>> IP's, when I join two /30 public subnets to a /29. It appears that while
>> the ranges are /30 someone is trying to brute-force the network and/or
>> broadcast addresses for the ranges. When I change them to be a /29, now
>> the router sees the traffic and starts dropping packets. Are there any
>> suggestions for mitigating this behavior or is it just the nature of the
>> beast?
>> 
>> -- 
>> 101010
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: Public Subnet re-assignments

[Mel Beckman]

If the sources are from many different IPs, it could be a DDoS attack that you 
simply didn’t notice before. You can black-hole individual IPs using a /32 
null0 route. That will at least stop your border router from trying to ARP the 
destination, reducing broadcast traffic on the subnet. In fact, it’s a good 
idea to configure /32 null0 routes for IPs you don’t use. Those IPs can’t then 
be scanned. 

 -mel

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 3:50 PM, Scott  wrote:
> 
> No nothing like that. I'm just removing the .0/30 and 4/30 subnets and
> adding .0/29.
> 
> To  your previous question, yes .0 and .3 are unused. Once I change the
> subnet .3 becomes a usable IP and it's getting hammered with traffic,
> causing packet loss.
> 
> On 6/25/19 3:30 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> Also, what do you mean by “join to /30 public subnets to a /29”? You can’t 
>> overlap subnets, if that’s what you’re thinking.
>> 
>> -mel
>> 
>>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 3:27 PM, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>>> 
>>> You’re using just the two middle IPs in the four that make up the /30 set, 
>>> right? IOW, the subnet x.x.x.0/30 should have .0 and .3 unused (they’re 
>>> broadcast), and you use .1 and .2.
>>> 
>>> -mel
>>> 
>>>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Scott  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> First, sorry if this is a bit of a noob question.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm trying to find a way of preventing a slew of traffic to an IP, or
>>>> IP's, when I join two /30 public subnets to a /29. It appears that while
>>>> the ranges are /30 someone is trying to brute-force the network and/or
>>>> broadcast addresses for the ranges. When I change them to be a /29, now
>>>> the router sees the traffic and starts dropping packets. Are there any
>>>> suggestions for mitigating this behavior or is it just the nature of the
>>>> beast?
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> 101010
>>>> 
>>>> 
> -- 
> 101010
> 

Re: Cost effective time servers

[Mel Beckman]

I use the $300 GPS-based TM1000A from TimeMachinesCorp.com. Gets Stratum-1 time 
from GPS satellites and distributes it. Usually I relay this through a handful 
of local time servers to spread out the load, but it can handle hundreds of 
queries per minute, so it’s reasonable to use as a primary source even in 
moderate-sized data centers.

I’ve put in a ton of them, and in most installations I buy two for redundancy. 
The GPS antenna works from a window in most instances .

 -mel beckman

> On Jun 20, 2019, at 7:53 AM, David Bass  wrote:
> 
> What are folks using these days for smaller organizations, that need to dole 
> out time from an internal source?

Re: Cost effective time servers

[Mel Beckman]

Warren,

I like the cheap price of the LeoNTP. The only reason I prefer the Tm1000a is 
that it has an embedded web server, which lets me monitor the satellite 
constellation visibility. Otherwise, except for oven-controller time clocks, it 
seems obvious that the $2000+ GPS NTP servers are overpriced overkill :)

-mel via cell

> On Jun 20, 2019, at 8:31 AM, Warren Kumari  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 11:00 AM Mel Beckman  wrote:
>> 
>> I use the $300 GPS-based TM1000A from TimeMachinesCorp.com. Gets Stratum-1 
>> time from GPS satellites and distributes it. Usually I relay this through a 
>> handful of local time servers to spread out the load, but it can handle 
>> hundreds of queries per minute, so it’s reasonable to use as a primary 
>> source even in moderate-sized data centers.
>> 
>> I’ve put in a ton of them, and in most installations I buy two for 
>> redundancy. The GPS antenna works from a window in most instances .
> 
> I recently fell down the high precision time rabbithole, and now have
> 3 GPS units (a Truetime, a Symmetricom S250 and a LeoNTP), 3 Cesuim
> Primary Reference sources (an FTS4060, and 2 PRS-50s), and an
> assortment rubidium units.
> 
> One of the "standard" solutions is one of the Microsemi (Symmetricom)
> SyncServer's, but these can be expensive -- I've been much happies
> with the LeoNTP (
> http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info_id=272
> ) -- they are small, they are cheap, and they fast, they are "accurate
> enough", and they just work. I've got one on my desk, with a cheap
> (car) GPS antenna dangling out the window, and it syncs and runs
> happily. A friend of mine has stuffed one in an IP68 box and it's
> hanging happily on the side of a TV tower in the elements with no
> issues...
> 
> I get mine from airspy.us - $349 + antenna.
> 
> W
> 
> 
>> 
>> -mel beckman
>> 
>>> On Jun 20, 2019, at 7:53 AM, David Bass  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What are folks using these days for smaller organizations, that need to 
>>> dole out time from an internal source?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> of pants.
>   ---maf

Re: Cellular backup connections

[Mel Beckman]

I ran into this problem and Verizon told me that they filter ports 22 and 23 to 
help stem the tide of IoT attacks on their networks by cellular-connected phone 
and alarm systems. They said their operational model assumes that all traffic 
will be encrypted via either SSLVPN or IPSec. I’m using IPSec tuned for low 
traffic volume (i.e., keepalive disabled), and it’s working well for OBM.

 -mel

On Jun 24, 2019, at 4:50 AM, Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:

I am getting the same for SSH and https traffic. It's strange. Where the 
response is something small like:

Moved to this https://63.XX.XX.XX:443/auth.asp;>location.

It works But when I try to load pages that are any bigger it fails. Like I said 
before I assume it's either an issue with the MTU or window szie. I was just 
wondering if anyone encountered such an issue before. It's not easy getting to 
someone that knows something. When you have some sort of concrete info the 
level1 techs tend to pass you along faster.





On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 7:41 AM J. Hellenthal 
mailto:jhellent...@dataix.net>> wrote:
Could be wrong on this but direct SSH on the LTE side may possibly be not 
allowed(filtered) and might just be something you could discuss in a ticket 
with Verizon.

--
 J. Hellenthal

The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

On Jun 24, 2019, at 04:50, Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:

All,

I finally got around to putting in a Verizon LTE connection and the ping times 
are pretty good. There is the occasional issue however for the most part ping 
times are < 50 ms. I have another strange issue though. When I try to ssh or 
connect via the endpoints web interface it fails. If I first connect via PPTP 
or SSL VPN then it works. I ruled out it being my IP since if I connect direct 
from the PPTP or SSL VPN box then it fails as well. It seems the tunnel does 
something (perhaps lowering the MTU or fragmenting packets) that allows it to 
work. Any thoughts?

TIA.




On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 8:18 AM Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:
Anyone know if Verizon static IP's over LTE have same issue where they bounce 
the traffic around before it gets back to the NY metro area?



On Thu, Jan 3, 2019 at 6:46 PM Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:
All,

Thanks for all of the feedback. I was on site today and noticed two things.
1) As someone mentioned it could be for static IP's they have the traffic going 
to a specific location. The POP is in NJ there was a min. latency of 120ms 
which prob had to do with this.
2) I was watching the ping times and it looked something like this:
400ms
360ms
330ms
300ms
260ms
210ms
170ms
140ms
120ms
400ms
375ms

It seems to have been coming in "waves". I assume this has to do with "how 
cellular work" and the signal. I tried moving it around by putting it down low 
on the floor, moving it locations etc. and saw the same thing every time. I am 
going to try Verizon next and see how it goes.



On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 12:13 PM Mark Milhollan 
mailto:m...@pixelgate.net>> wrote:
On Fri, 28 Dec 2018, Dovid Bender wrote:

>I finally got around to setting up a cellular backup device in our new POP.

>When SSH'ing in remotely the connection seems rather slow.

Perhaps using MOSH can help make the interactive CLI session less
annoying.

>Verizon they charge $500.00 just to get a public IP and I want to avoid
>that if possible.

You might look into have it call out / maintain a connection back to
your infrastructure.


/mark

Re: FCC Hurricane Michael after-action report

[Mel Beckman]

This is what I tell outage complainers during natural disasters, such as the 
fires in California that recently took out a lot of power and communications:

“Stop whining about how long it is taking to repair your Internet, your cell 
phone service, or your cable TV. You didn’t pay anything extra to recover from 
natural disasters, and none of us in the field are getting paid anything extra 
to restore your services.

No, we don’t know how long it will take. It takes what it takes. That you don’t 
get instant gratification doesn’t make us incompetent. It makes you ungrateful.

It’s a natural disaster. These are not scheduled. Your outage is nobody’s 
fault. We don’t have a duty to mitigate all conceivable failures.

It takes time to repair. We’re not cheating you, or loafing around. We don’t 
owe you any special attention because of your status or reputation.

So quit whining and be thankful you’re alive, and hopefully you haven’t lost 
too much. Maybe pitch in and help those who have.“

I also send this to ignorant journalists and grandstanding politicians.

-mel via cell

On May 11, 2019, at 4:29 AM, Mike Bolitho 
mailto:mikeboli...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Trying not to get political, here goes...

Something important to keep in mind: The current administration has been 
getting slammed for their lack of response in the aftermath of Michael since 
the hurricane hit. A lot of that criticism revolves around communications 
infrastructure and FEMA's lack of assistance. The current administration has, 
time and time again, used federal agencies (specifically their presidential 
appointees) to defend the administration's actions or inactions. I have read 
the full report and it is more or less a thinly veiled hit piece. I'm not going 
to link them here (they are easy enough to find via Google) but there are 
several very good articles written by reputable tech journalists that go into 
greater detail responding to the report. Worth checking out.

I say all of that because most of us like to hate on telecom companies (many 
times rightly so) but I don't think they are entirely to blame here. There's 
nothing Verizon or AT can do if their backhaul is cut by a tree or some third 
party clean up crew. The report is a gross oversimplification of how 
telecommunication infrastructure works. I think anyone here that has ever 
worked a storm like this can attest to the complexity and difficulty you run 
into during recovery. Hanlon's Razor and all but this is the FCC and I would 
hope they would know better.

Speaking specifically to point 51, it's impossible to coordinate between the 
thousands of crews working to clean things up and repair physical 
infrastructure after a massive storm like this. Many of the people doing 
physical cleanup are volunteers that are fully independent of any governing 
body or company. It is not a telco's responsibility to know when and where 
those crews are working. Further, even if those crews we're calling in and 
letting each telco know exactly where they were, what does that provide other 
than an impossibly large and fluid dataset to parse for any meaningful 
information.

- Mike Bolitho

On Thu, May 9, 2019, 4:43 PM Sean Donelan wrote:

The FCC has released its report and analysis of Hurricane Michael impact
on communications: preparation, effect and recovery.


https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-releases-report-communication-impacts-hurricane-michael-0

Conclusions and Recommendations

51. Backhaul outages loomed large as an impediment to communications
recovery. Uncoordinated post-storm recovery efforts between and among
communications, utility, and debris removal teams created unnecessary
delays to a speedy return to service. Customers who had communications
service restored – only to lose it again almost immediately because of a
fiber cut – provide a clear example of how better cross-sector
coordination could have improved the restoration process.

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Mehmet,

I use the TimeMachines unit a lot. Usually we deploy these near any outside 
window, typically putting the box in the ceiling and the running the GPS 
antenna on its 20’ cable (or whatever it is) down to the window glass.  Test 
different windows first before committing. Then use any of the may passive POE 
injectors to inject the TM’s power brick into the Cat5 and strip it out on the 
other end, over a little power plug jumper that plugs into the TM box. Works a 
treat!

 -mel beckman

On May 1, 2019, at 12:44 PM, Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:

thank you guys, looks like GPS based NTP is the way to go.

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 3:36 PM Bryan Fields 
mailto:br...@bryanfields.net>> wrote:
On 5/1/19 3:22 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote:
> hey there Nanog,
>
> I am trying to buy a GPS based NTP server like this one
>
> https://timemachinescorp.com/product/gps-time-server-tm1000a/
>
> but I will be placing this inside a data center, do these need an actual
> view of a sky to be able to get signal or will they work fine inside a data
> center building?

You will need a clear view to the sky for at least the antenna.

Most GPS "antennas" are an antenna and Low Noise Amplifier (LNA) which is
powered via 5-12v on the coax.  This sets the noise figure and gain of the
system, so you can run 50-100' of RG6 coax if needed.  You'll need a F to sma
adapter for this unit it looks like.  Don't worry about the impedance
mismatch, 50 to 75 ohm is not horrid, the RG-174 thin cable has more loss in
10' than 100' of RG6.

You will not want to use the low gain puck antenna, but rather get a proper
grounded/mounted/weatherproofed antenna such as the ubiquitous 26 dBi
Quadrifilar Helix antenna. https://www.ebay.com/itm/192899151132



--
Bryan Fields

727-409-1194 - Voice
http://bryanfields.net

Re: NTP Question

[Mel Beckman]

Harlan and Mehmet,

I can expand on one important reason that James only alluded to with his 
“Kepping the Auditors happy” comment.

Passing NTP through a firewall and then using that as a critical time reference 
source represents a huge security risk. Here’s one detailed explanation of that 
risk:

https://insights.sei.cmu.edu/sei_blog/2017/04/best-practices-for-ntp-services.html

 -mel

On May 1, 2019, at 3:48 PM, James R Cutler 
mailto:james.cut...@consultant.com>> wrote:

On Wed, May 01, 2019 at 02:35:58PM -0700, Harlan Stenn wrote:
- Why do folks want to have one or more NTP server masters that have at
least 1 refclock on them in a data center, instead of having their data
center NTP server masters that only get time over the internet?

Answers to that include:

  *   Keeping the Auditors happy
  *   Knowing that “everyone does it” - the vendor told them so
  *   Bragging rights (expensive hardware)
  *   Being unbothered by fighting with facilities for building penetrations 
and antenna mounts
  *   Misunderstanding the beauty and economy Dave Mills marvelous algorithms 
for consistent time based on multiple sources, even those connected via internet
  *   Unwillingness or inability to leverage other local resources capacity to 
run ntpd with minimal impact in order to have a good constellation of local NTP 
servers
  *   Willingness to farm out time service without doing a deep dive into why 
and how, just leaving the design to the appliance vendors

This covers most of what I have encountered in providing enterprise time 
services for $dayjob+clients. I probably left out some significant points, but 
it has been a few years...

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Ask,

But with a small compact server like the DC-powered TimeMachines Inc unit, 
which costs something like $300, you simply put the server where the visibility 
is and connect back to the nearest Ethernet port in your network, up to 300’ 
away, or virtually any distance with fiber transceivers. We’ve installed these 
in Cantex boxes on a windy, rainy tenth-story rooftop in upstate NY and it runs 
flawlessly, warmed by its own internal heat at sub-zero temps, and perfectly 
happy at ambient temps of 110F. 

It’s hard to consider messing with signal converters and pricey 
remotely-powered active antennas when you can solve the problem for $300. :)

 -mel 

> On May 1, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Ask Bjørn Hansen  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On May 1, 2019, at 12:22, Mehmet Akcin  wrote:
>> 
>> I am trying to buy a GPS based NTP server like this one 
>> 
>> https://timemachinescorp.com/product/gps-time-server-tm1000a/
>> 
>> but I will be placing this inside a data center, do these need an actual 
>> view of a sky to be able to get signal or will they work fine inside a data 
>> center building? if you have any other hardware requirements to be able to 
>> provide stable time service for hundreds of customers, please let me know.
> 
> [ with my hobby-hat on … ]
> 
> tl;dr: if any of the below is too much work, just run reasonably well 
> monitored NTP server syncing from other NTP servers. If you want more than 
> that, you need to see the sky. Don’t do the CDMA thing.
> 
> Depending on your requirements having the antenna in the window may or may 
> not be satisfactory. If it’s fine you probably could just have done a regular 
> NTP server in the first place.  For long swaths of the day you might not see 
> too many satellites which will add to the uncertainty of the signal.
> 
> Meinberg’s GPS antenna has a bit more smarts which helps it work on up to 300 
> meters on RG58 or 700 meters on RG213.  (They also have products that use 
> regular L1 antennas with the limitations Bryan mentioned).
> 
> https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/gps-antenna-converter.htm
> 
> They also have a multi-mode fiber box to have the antenna be up to 2km from 
> the box or 20km with their single mode fiber box, if you have fiber to 
> somewhere else where you can see the sky and place an antenna.
> 
> It will be more than the one you linked to, but their systems are very 
> reasonably priced, too. For “hundreds of customers” whatever is the 
> smallest/cheapest box they have will work fine. Even their smallest models 
> have decent oscillators (for keeping the ticks accurate between GPS signals).
> 
> The Meinberg time server products (I am guessing all of them, but I’m not 
> sure) also have a mode where they poll an upstream NTP server aggressively 
> and then steer the oscillator after it. I haven’t used it in production, but 
> it worked a lot better than it sounded like it would.  (In other words, even 
> without GPS it’s a better time server than most systems).
> 
> 
> Ask

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Harlan,

Why? The GPS NTP Server is Stratum-1.  If it fails computer clocks will 
freewheel for hours or days before losing significant time, during which period 
you can simply order a replacement unit. If that isn’t fast enough, buy two 
$300 boxes. The “consensus” issue is moot, since a GPS server gets a consensus 
of clock time from the GPS satellite constellation. 

The “enough NTP peers” you speak of are simply not necessary. 

-mel via cell

> On May 1, 2019, at 6:49 PM, Harlan Stenn  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5/1/19 4:53 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> Ask,
>> 
>> But with a small compact server like the DC-powered TimeMachines Inc unit, 
>> which costs something like $300, you simply put the server where the 
>> visibility is and connect back to the nearest Ethernet port in your network, 
>> up to 300’ away, or virtually any distance with fiber transceivers. We’ve 
>> installed these in Cantex boxes on a windy, rainy tenth-story rooftop in 
>> upstate NY and it runs flawlessly, warmed by its own internal heat at 
>> sub-zero temps, and perfectly happy at ambient temps of 110F. 
>> 
>> It’s hard to consider messing with signal converters and pricey 
>> remotely-powered active antennas when you can solve the problem for $300. :)
> 
> I sure hope you have ntpd set up to peer or get time with enough other
> servers.
> 
> H
> --
>> -mel 
>> 
>>> On May 1, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Ask Bjørn Hansen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On May 1, 2019, at 12:22, Mehmet Akcin  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I am trying to buy a GPS based NTP server like this one 
>>>> 
>>>> https://timemachinescorp.com/product/gps-time-server-tm1000a/
>>>> 
>>>> but I will be placing this inside a data center, do these need an actual 
>>>> view of a sky to be able to get signal or will they work fine inside a 
>>>> data center building? if you have any other hardware requirements to be 
>>>> able to provide stable time service for hundreds of customers, please let 
>>>> me know.
>>> 
>>> [ with my hobby-hat on … ]
>>> 
>>> tl;dr: if any of the below is too much work, just run reasonably well 
>>> monitored NTP server syncing from other NTP servers. If you want more than 
>>> that, you need to see the sky. Don’t do the CDMA thing.
>>> 
>>> Depending on your requirements having the antenna in the window may or may 
>>> not be satisfactory. If it’s fine you probably could just have done a 
>>> regular NTP server in the first place.  For long swaths of the day you 
>>> might not see too many satellites which will add to the uncertainty of the 
>>> signal.
>>> 
>>> Meinberg’s GPS antenna has a bit more smarts which helps it work on up to 
>>> 300 meters on RG58 or 700 meters on RG213.  (They also have products that 
>>> use regular L1 antennas with the limitations Bryan mentioned).
>>> 
>>> https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/gps-antenna-converter.htm
>>> 
>>> They also have a multi-mode fiber box to have the antenna be up to 2km from 
>>> the box or 20km with their single mode fiber box, if you have fiber to 
>>> somewhere else where you can see the sky and place an antenna.
>>> 
>>> It will be more than the one you linked to, but their systems are very 
>>> reasonably priced, too. For “hundreds of customers” whatever is the 
>>> smallest/cheapest box they have will work fine. Even their smallest models 
>>> have decent oscillators (for keeping the ticks accurate between GPS 
>>> signals).
>>> 
>>> The Meinberg time server products (I am guessing all of them, but I’m not 
>>> sure) also have a mode where they poll an upstream NTP server aggressively 
>>> and then steer the oscillator after it. I haven’t used it in production, 
>>> but it worked a lot better than it sounded like it would.  (In other words, 
>>> even without GPS it’s a better time server than most systems).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Ask
> 
> -- 
> Harlan Stenn 
> http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Yo Gary!

Not only did I not sleep through it, I was one of the engineers who verified 
that every GPS clock source in a very large aviation support network didn’t 
have have this bug. 

I’m also an FAA licensed A mechanic, and have worked for airlines in fleet 
maintenance.  Air carriers have extremely thorough systems reviews, by law, 
through the Airworthiness Directive program, which started identifying 2019 GPS 
rollover vulnerabilities in ... 2009! Nobody was surprised.  If any GPS systems 
“went nuts”, it was through the incompetence and negligence of their owners.

 -mel 

> On May 1, 2019, at 8:03 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo Mel!
> 
> On Thu, 2 May 2019 02:54:25 +0000
> Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
>> Why? The GPS NTP Server is Stratum-1.  If it fails computer clocks
>> will freewheel for hours or days before losing significant time,
>> during which period you can simply order a replacement unit. If that
>> isn’t fast enough, buy two $300 boxes. The “consensus” issue is moot,
>> since a GPS server gets a consensus of clock time from the GPS
>> satellite constellation. 
> 
> I guess you slept through GPS Week Roll Over day last April 6th?
> 
> Some GPS went nuts, others did not.  Many 777 and 787 were grounded that
> weekend for software updates to their expensive Honeywell GPS.  I'll
> spare you the many more examples that hapened.
> 
> Not nice when yoar clock rolls back to 1999, or forward to 2035.
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
> 
>Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin

Re: Special Counsel Office report web site

[Mel Beckman]

B just announced that they are offering free downloads via their Nook reader. 
 I noticed I couldn’t reach B via IPv6, and discovered the cause :

nslookup
> set type=
> barnesandnoble.com
Server: 4.2.2.1
Non-authoritative answer:
*** Can't find barnesandnoble.com: No answer

> set type=A
> barnesandnoble.com.
Server: 4.2.2.1
Non-authoritative answer:
Name:   barnesandnoble.com
Address: 161.221.74.213

I don’t know if this is a temporary DNS failure, or B really still has no 
IPv6 hosted web services :)


 -mel 

> On Apr 18, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Naslund, Steve  wrote:
> 
> Agreed, I remember the biggest problem when the Starr Report was released was 
> that our dial-up PoPs had all lines busy.  It was a different Internet then.
> 
> Steven Naslund
> Chicago IL
> 
>> Hey Mike.
>> 
>> Agreed. But the scale of a 400 page document with global interest? 
>> Should be highly cached with a good ratio of served to pull bits. I'm 
>> willing to bet you a beer its just another day on the Internet. 
>> However, I could be wrong. Hope to see you in DC to collect! I already 
>> know Brett is in. :)
> 

Re: who attacks the weather channel?

[Mel Beckman]

When IBM purchased TWC, IBM summarily cancelled our heretofore free weather 
station monitoring through Wunderground.com. Instead 
IBM offered to “sell” us our own remote data center weather stations 
information back to us at an exorbitant price. No thank you. We switched 
everything to Ambient.com.

The idea of Wunderground.com was free public 
collection and sharing of useful weather data to vastly increase the density of 
coverage over commercial services. It’s a pity IBM, who otherwise supports open 
source through it’s vast Linux contributions, couldn’t see that.

During the Santa Barbara fires last year, our weather station on Gibraltar Peak 
was the one source firefighting helicopter pilots had to obtain ridge wind 
speeds, which was critical to their operation. Neither the NWS nor TWC or IBM 
is willing to invest in critical public information infrastructure. I’m a 
capitalist, but I don’t believe destroying the good works of others is 
ultimately profitable.

 -mel

On Apr 18, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Fred Baker 
mailto:fredbaker.i...@gmail.com>> wrote:

According to this, Weather Underground was purchased by the Weather Channel and 
firmed “The Weather Company”, and that was in turn purchased by IBM last year.

https://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/weather-underground-bought-by-ibm.html

Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways...

On Apr 18, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Christopher Morrow 
mailto:morrowc.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:27 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer 
mailto:bortzme...@nic.fr>> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 03:16:34PM +,
Kain, Rebecca (.) mailto:bka...@ford.com>> wrote
a message of 69 lines which said:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/media/weather-channel-hack/index.html

May be these people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground

I think WU was actually bought by weatherunderground...

Re: who attacks the weather channel?

[Mel Beckman]

I mistyped. It's AmbientWeather.com<http://ambientweather.com>. Here’s the 
Gibraltar Peak weather station link if anyone is interested:

https://dashboard.ambientweather.net/devices/public/143d3d3f9aa00e499954061991374c7b

Ignore the rain data. Something is not mapping correctly from our weather 
station to the Ambient data collection, so it looks like we have many feet of 
rain :) But it’s wind and temperature we’re most concerned with, so I haven’t 
put any time into sorting out the decimal point in the rain gauge, or whatever 
is the cause of crazy rain data.

 -mel


On Apr 18, 2019, at 9:16 AM, Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:

When IBM purchased TWC, IBM summarily cancelled our heretofore free weather 
station monitoring through Wunderground.com<http://wunderground.com/>. Instead 
IBM offered to “sell” us our own remote data center weather stations 
information back to us at an exorbitant price. No thank you. We switched 
everything to Ambient.com<http://ambient.com/>.

The idea of Wunderground.com<http://wunderground.com/> was free public 
collection and sharing of useful weather data to vastly increase the density of 
coverage over commercial services. It’s a pity IBM, who otherwise supports open 
source through it’s vast Linux contributions, couldn’t see that.

During the Santa Barbara fires last year, our weather station on Gibraltar Peak 
was the one source firefighting helicopter pilots had to obtain ridge wind 
speeds, which was critical to their operation. Neither the NWS nor TWC or IBM 
is willing to invest in critical public information infrastructure. I’m a 
capitalist, but I don’t believe destroying the good works of others is 
ultimately profitable.

 -mel

On Apr 18, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Fred Baker 
mailto:fredbaker.i...@gmail.com>> wrote:

According to this, Weather Underground was purchased by the Weather Channel and 
firmed “The Weather Company”, and that was in turn purchased by IBM last year.

https://www.wunderground.com/blog/JeffMasters/weather-underground-bought-by-ibm.html

Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways...

On Apr 18, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Christopher Morrow 
mailto:morrowc.li...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:27 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer 
mailto:bortzme...@nic.fr>> wrote:

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 03:16:34PM +,
Kain, Rebecca (.) mailto:bka...@ford.com>> wrote
a message of 69 lines which said:

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/media/weather-channel-hack/index.html

May be these people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground

I think WU was actually bought by weatherunderground...

Re: Special Counsel Office report web site

[Mel Beckman]

Rich,

If you want NANOG to devolve into a morass of political claptrap, keep posting 
comments like that. Personally, I want NANOG to remain a useful technical 
resource, and leave the partisan crap to Facebook and its ilk.

 -mel beckman

> On Apr 18, 2019, at 7:18 AM, Rich Kulawiec  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 09:02:52PM -0400, Sean Donelan wrote:
>> The Special Counsel's report is expected to be posted [...]
> 
> Not quite.  A *version* of the report that has been redacted by
> the President's hand-picked obedient lackey will be posted.
> 
> I suspect that the full report will find its way to us via other means.
> 
> ---rsk

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Like I said, bigger problems. :)

Enemies aren’t dependent on US GPS, by the way. lol!

-mel via cell

> On May 2, 2019, at 12:31 PM, Scott Weeks  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> --- m...@beckman.org wrote:
> From: Mel Beckman 
> 
> But wait. What is the GPS constellation goes down? 
> THEN we have bigger problems :)
> --
> 
> 
> What if the US military intentionally messes with 
> the signal to thwart the advances of an enemy who 
> is using GPS in their attack?  ;-)
> 
> scott

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Bill,

I did say _today’s_ RTP chips :)

Although as a Mac user with multiple types, many not Internet-connected, I’ve 
never seen any lose minutes per day. You might have a dead clock battery.

 -mel

On May 2, 2019, at 7:57 AM, William Herrin 
mailto:b...@herrin.us>> wrote:

On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 8:35 PM Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:
I can tell you how the GPS server behaves when it loses it signal: it stops 
giving out verified time and lapses into Stratum-“goners” mode. But today’s RTP 
chips don’t start losing seconds-per-day when they are free running. Typically 
they might lose ten seconds per week on cheap systems. That’s of little concern 
if you have two GPS clocks.

The macbook my employer issued gains about 20 minutes a day when not synced. 
Easier to not replace it because oh look, the drive is soldered to the 
motherboard.

I've taken to calling it my crapbook. Really disappointed with the quality out 
of Apple lately.

-Bill


--
William Herrin  her...@dirtside.com<mailto:her...@dirtside.com> 
 b...@herrin.us<mailto:b...@herrin.us>
Dirtside Systems . Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/>

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

For those wondering what a GPS certification letter for the rollover bug looks 
like, here’s Garmin’s. Note the phrase “for many years, Garmin has anticipated 
and prepared for this event...”:

Garmin GPS Week Number Rollover Statement

What is the GPS Week Number Rollover (WNRO)?

The GPS system is world renowned for its ability to provide accurate and 
reliable positioning and timing information worldwide. The GPS satellites 
transmit to users the date and time accurate to nanoseconds. However, back in 
1980, when the GPS system first began to keep track of time, the date and time 
was represented by a counter that could only count forward to a maximum of 1024 
weeks, or about 19.7 years. After 1024 weeks had elapsed, this counter “rolled 
over” to zero, and GPS time started counting forward again.  This first 
rollover occurred in August of 1999. The second rollover will occur on April 6, 
2019.

Is My Device Affected?

For many years, Garmin has anticipated and prepared for this event. Regardless, 
Garmin has been performing exhaustive testing of current and legacy devices to 
determine if they will be affected by the GPS week number rollover.  Our 
testing shows the vast majority of Garmin GPS devices will handle the WNRO 
without issues.

What is the Effect of a GPS Week Number Rollover Issue?

For GPS devices that are affected, after the rollover occurs, an incorrect date 
and time will be displayed. This incorrect time will also be used to timestamp 
track logs, compute sunrise and sunset, and other functions that rely upon the 
correct date and time. However, the positioning accuracy will not be affected. 
The device will continue to deliver the same positioning performance as before 
the rollover.

 -mel

On May 1, 2019, at 8:56 PM, Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:

Gary, Gary, Gary,

You don’t need a $30,000 GPS simulator to verify if a GPS product in your 
inventory has the rollover bug. You simply ask the supplier to certify that 
they don’t have the rollover bug. They use their _$100,000_ GPS simulator If 
needed, but usually it’s done with a trivial code review.

If the supplier can’t provide such a certification, then they are no longer a 
supplier. This tends to persuade them to certify.

If you as an air carrier (or any other critical GPS consumer) fail to ask for 
such a certification in time to field a replacement, that’s your fault.

You might not be aware, but zero US air carriers had any unplanned  downtime 
from the GPS rollover. I can’t say the same thing for certain Asian air 
carriers :)

-mel via cell

On May 1, 2019, at 8:39 PM, Gary E. Miller 
mailto:g...@rellim.com>> wrote:

Yo Mel!

On Thu, 2 May 2019 03:30:03 +
Mel Beckman mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:

I’m also an FAA licensed A mechanic, and have worked for airlines
in fleet maintenance.  Air carriers have extremely thorough systems
reviews, by law, through the Airworthiness Directive program, which
started identifying 2019 GPS rollover vulnerabilities in ... 2009!
Nobody was surprised.  If any GPS systems “went nuts”, it was through
the incompetence and negligence of their owners.

How many GPS owners happen to have $30,000 GPS simulators to check
their $300 GPS/NTP servers?  Some of mine did, most did not.

Seems to me the negligence is in the GPS manufacturer that failed to
notify their customers.

To be fair, Avidyne and Telit did notify their customers, but not with
a fix or enough lead time to swap out the units.

RGDS
GARY
---
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
  g...@rellim.com<mailto:g...@rellim.com>  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

  Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
  "If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Stephen,

LOL. That’s not a real problem with today’s microprocessors. The TM1000A, for 
example:

“...is capable of serving 135+ synchronizations per second. 
That provides support for over 120,000+ devices updating 
every 15 minutes on the network.”

As for ARP traffic deluges, if that’s happening on your LAN, you have bigger 
problems :)

 -mel 

> On May 1, 2019, at 6:21 PM, Stephen Satchell  wrote:
> 
> One word of caution when using a low-priced NTP appliance: your network
> activity could overwhelm the TCP/IP stack of the poor thing, especially
> if you want to sync your entire shop to it.  In the case of the networks
> I set up, I set up a VLAN specific to the NTP appliance and to the two
> servers that sync up with it.  Everything else in the network is
> configured to talk to the two servers, but NOT on the three-device "NTP
> Appliance VLAN".
> 
> NOTE: Don't depend on the appliance to provide VLAN capability; use a
> configuration in a connected switch.  How you wire from the appliance to
> a port on your network leaves you with a lot of options to reach a
> window with good satellite visibility, as CAT 5 at 10 megabits/s can
> extend a long way successfully.  Watch your cable dress, particularly
> splices and runs against metal. (Or through rooms with MRI machines --
> I'm not joking.)
> 
> The two servers in question also sync up with NTP servers in the cloud
> using whatever baseband or VLANs (other than the "NTP VLAN") you
> configure.  Ditto clients using the two servers as time sources.
> 
> The goal here is to minimize the amount of traffic in the "NTP Appliance
> VLAN".  What killed one installation I did was the huge amount of ARP
> traffic that the appliance had to discard; it wasn't up to the deluge.
> 
> Learn from my mistakes.
> 

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

I can tell you how the GPS server behaves when it loses it signal: it stops 
giving out verified time and lapses into Stratum-“goners” mode. But today’s RTP 
chips don’t start losing seconds-per-day when they are free running. Typically 
they might lose ten seconds per week on cheap systems. That’s of little concern 
if you have two GPS clocks.

But wait. What is the GPS constellation goes down? THEN we have bigger problems 
:)

It’s possible to over-think the clock problem, just as it’s possible to 
overthink RAID storage protection. Sometimes a manual restore from backup is 
just fine.

 -mel

> On May 1, 2019, at 8:13 PM, Harlan Stenn  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5/1/19 7:54 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> Harlan,
>> 
>> Why? The GPS NTP Server is Stratum-1.  If it fails computer clocks will 
>> freewheel for hours or days before losing significant time, during which 
>> period you can simply order a replacement unit. If that isn’t fast enough, 
>> buy two $300 boxes. The “consensus” issue is moot, since a GPS server gets a 
>> consensus of clock time from the GPS satellite constellation. 
>> 
>> The “enough NTP peers” you speak of are simply not necessary. 
> 
> You might be right about the GPS server.  It depends on how your $300
> box behaves if it loses the GPS signal.
> 
> The consensus issue isn't about the number of satellites the GPS
> receiver sees, it's about the number of time sources your NTP servers see.
> 
> H
> --
>> -mel via cell
>> 
>>> On May 1, 2019, at 6:49 PM, Harlan Stenn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 5/1/19 4:53 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
>>>> Ask,
>>>> 
>>>> But with a small compact server like the DC-powered TimeMachines Inc unit, 
>>>> which costs something like $300, you simply put the server where the 
>>>> visibility is and connect back to the nearest Ethernet port in your 
>>>> network, up to 300’ away, or virtually any distance with fiber 
>>>> transceivers. We’ve installed these in Cantex boxes on a windy, rainy 
>>>> tenth-story rooftop in upstate NY and it runs flawlessly, warmed by its 
>>>> own internal heat at sub-zero temps, and perfectly happy at ambient temps 
>>>> of 110F. 
>>>> 
>>>> It’s hard to consider messing with signal converters and pricey 
>>>> remotely-powered active antennas when you can solve the problem for $300. 
>>>> :)
>>> 
>>> I sure hope you have ntpd set up to peer or get time with enough other
>>> servers.
>>> 
>>> H
>>> --
>>>> -mel 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 1, 2019, at 4:44 PM, Ask Bjørn Hansen  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On May 1, 2019, at 12:22, Mehmet Akcin  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am trying to buy a GPS based NTP server like this one 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://timemachinescorp.com/product/gps-time-server-tm1000a/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> but I will be placing this inside a data center, do these need an actual 
>>>>>> view of a sky to be able to get signal or will they work fine inside a 
>>>>>> data center building? if you have any other hardware requirements to be 
>>>>>> able to provide stable time service for hundreds of customers, please 
>>>>>> let me know.
>>>>> 
>>>>> [ with my hobby-hat on … ]
>>>>> 
>>>>> tl;dr: if any of the below is too much work, just run reasonably well 
>>>>> monitored NTP server syncing from other NTP servers. If you want more 
>>>>> than that, you need to see the sky. Don’t do the CDMA thing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Depending on your requirements having the antenna in the window may or 
>>>>> may not be satisfactory. If it’s fine you probably could just have done a 
>>>>> regular NTP server in the first place.  For long swaths of the day you 
>>>>> might not see too many satellites which will add to the uncertainty of 
>>>>> the signal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Meinberg’s GPS antenna has a bit more smarts which helps it work on up to 
>>>>> 300 meters on RG58 or 700 meters on RG213.  (They also have products that 
>>>>> use regular L1 antennas with the limitations Bryan mentioned).
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/products/gps-antenna-converter.htm
>>>>> 
>>>>> They also have a multi-mod

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

Gary, Gary, Gary,

You don’t need a $30,000 GPS simulator to verify if a GPS product in your 
inventory has the rollover bug. You simply ask the supplier to certify that 
they don’t have the rollover bug. They use their _$100,000_ GPS simulator If 
needed, but usually it’s done with a trivial code review. 

If the supplier can’t provide such a certification, then they are no longer a 
supplier. This tends to persuade them to certify. 

If you as an air carrier (or any other critical GPS consumer) fail to ask for 
such a certification in time to field a replacement, that’s your fault.

You might not be aware, but zero US air carriers had any unplanned  downtime 
from the GPS rollover. I can’t say the same thing for certain Asian air 
carriers :)

-mel via cell

> On May 1, 2019, at 8:39 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo Mel!
> 
> On Thu, 2 May 2019 03:30:03 +0000
> Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
>> I’m also an FAA licensed A mechanic, and have worked for airlines
>> in fleet maintenance.  Air carriers have extremely thorough systems
>> reviews, by law, through the Airworthiness Directive program, which
>> started identifying 2019 GPS rollover vulnerabilities in ... 2009!
>> Nobody was surprised.  If any GPS systems “went nuts”, it was through
>> the incompetence and negligence of their owners.
> 
> How many GPS owners happen to have $30,000 GPS simulators to check
> their $300 GPS/NTP servers?  Some of mine did, most did not.
> 
> Seems to me the negligence is in the GPS manufacturer that failed to
> notify their customers.
> 
> To be fair, Avidyne and Telit did notify their customers, but not with
> a fix or enough lead time to swap out the units.
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
> 
>Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin

Re: NTP question

[Mel Beckman]

I’m talking about _my_ GPS server. I have no idea what you’ve cobbled up :)

 -mel 

> On May 1, 2019, at 8:41 PM, Gary E. Miller  wrote:
> 
> Yo Mel!
> 
> On Thu, 2 May 2019 03:35:31 +0000
> Mel Beckman  wrote:
> 
>> I can tell you how the GPS server behaves when it loses it signal: it
>> stops giving out verified time and lapses into Stratum-“goners” mode.
> 
> I happen to have a few GPS in my lab that do not agree with your
> statement.  I'll spare this list the details...
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
>g...@rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
> 
>Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>"If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin

Re: Packetstream - how does this not violate just about every provider's ToS?

[Mel Beckman]

Anne,

As a lawyer, I’m sure you realize those overly broad policies are unenforceable 
on their face. Phrases such as “resell...directly or indirectly” could just as 
easily be interpreted to mean you can’t perform paid consulting work by email 
over a residential link — something patently ridiculous. 

Can you cite any case law where these restrictions have been enforced? I 
believe if a case every cane to court, the defense would have an excellent 
argument that the plain meaning of these restrictions is to prevent others from 
buying direct Internet access from another communications channel (e.g., WiFi) 
from the residence, not passing data through the residence. 

-mel via cell

> On Apr 26, 2019, at 8:48 AM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 26, 2019, at 9:24 AM, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>> 
>> With all due respect, you haven’t yet cited an example of an ISP TOS at 
>> “every provider” that this new company’s product violates. I’m not asking 
>> you to critique TORs, I’m asking that you tell us the TOS restriction that 
>> you believe is so obvious to everyone? Because it’s not obvious to me, and I 
>> own an ISP. 
> 
> A few examples:
> 
> Comcast:
> 
> You are prohibited from reselling or permitting another to resell the 
> Service(s) in whole or in part, or using or permitting another to use the 
> Xfinity Equipment or the Service(s), directly or indirectly, for any unlawful 
> purpose, including, but not limited to, in violation of any policy we post 
> applicable to the Service(s).
> 
> https://www.xfinity.com/Corporate/Customers/Policies/SubscriberAgreement
> 
> ---
> 
> CenturyLink:
> 
> Also, you agree not to use the Service for high volume or excessive use, in a 
> business or for any commercial purpose if your Service is a residential 
> service, or in a way that impacts CenturyLink network resources or 
> CenturyLink’s ability to provide services. You agree not to: (i) offer public 
> information services (unlimited usage or otherwise), or (ii) permit more than 
> one high-speed Internet log-on session to be active at one time, except if 
> using a roaming account when traveling, in which case 2 sessions may be 
> active. A log-on session represents an active connection to your Internet 
> access provider. The active session may be shared to connect multiple 
> computers/devices within a single home or office location or within a single 
> unit within a multiple dwelling unit (e.g., single apartment or office within 
> an apartment complex) to your modem and/or router to access the Service 
> (including the establishment of a wireless fidelity (“WiFi”) hotspot), but 
> the Service may only be used at the single home or office location or single 
> unit within a multiple dwelling unit for which Service is provisioned by 
> CenturyLink.
> 
> http://www.centurylink.com/legal/en/highspeedinternetsubscriberagreement_LQ.html
> 
> ---
> 
> Google:
> 
> you agree not to use or allow third parties to use the Services provided to 
> you for any of the following purposes:
> 
> ...
> 
>• To make the Services available to anyone outside the property to which 
> the Services are delivered, to resell the Services directly or indirectly, 
> except as explicitly approved by Google Fiber in writing, or to create 
> substitute or related services through the use of or access to the Services 
> (for example, to provide Wi-Fi services to third parties outside of your 
> residence).
> 
> https://fiber.google.com/legal/accepteduse/residential/
> 
> ---
> 
> Anne
> 
> Attorney at Law
> GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Legislative Consultant
> CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute
> Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS
> California Bar Association
> Cal. Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> Colorado Cyber Committee
> Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Crowdfunding critical infrastructure

[Mel Beckman]

Eric,

Not to go too far afield, but I’m also not on anyone’s payroll, so I buy my own 
individual-plan health insurance. Yes, it’s more expensive, but that’s the 
price of not having just one boss :)

 -mel beckman

> On Jun 27, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Eric S. Raymond  wrote:
> 
> Mehmet Akcin :
>>> On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 08:41 Eric S. Raymond  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The members of this list are, I think, much more aware tham most that
>>> a lot of critical Internet software is maintained by unfunded
>>> volunteers, and of the systemic risks that result from this.
>> 
>> Please explain. This is not true.
> 
> Tell it to Dave Taht, who broke his health solving the bufferbloat problem.
> 
> Tell it to Patrick Volkerding, who sweated to created the first Linux
> distribution - inventing a whole tier of infrastructure we now take
> for granted - only to end up in deep financial trouble because other
> people make all the money selling the CDs.
> 
> Tell it to me, leading GIFLIB and GPSD and NTPsec and 48 other
> projects and looking at having my life savings possibly wiped out by a
> relatively low-grade medical problem because I'm not on anyone's
> payroll.
> 
> Tell it to Harlan Stenn, who worked on NTP for over a decade and could
> barely get anyone to kick in enough money to buy coffee.
> 
> If you do not understand the scope of this problem, you are *astoundingly*
> ignorant.  And probably alone on this list.
> 
>> This needs governance and transparency around it. Just launching a page
>> isn’t going to get you anywhere “sustsinable”
> 
> Every loadsharer keeps control of their money at all times.  Nobody is
> makng decisions for them; the most the advisers can do is suggest 
> priorities.  Everyting happens in public. How does it get more
> transparent than that?
> -- 
>http://www.catb.org/~esr/;>Eric S. Raymond
> 
> 

Re: Reddit down

[Mel Beckman]

Reddit down? “I sense an improvement in The Force” :)

 -mel

> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:54 AM, Miles Fidelman  
> wrote:
> 
> Seems to be having problems here.
> 
> Was getting "CDN can't reach" messages, now getting reddit pages - but the 
> individual lines are listing "something went wrong, don't panic" and a global 
> pop-up "couldn't load posts for this page.  Meanwhile the phone app seems to 
> be working just fine.
> 
> Just tried using Firefox instead of Chrome, and back to "CDN can't reach."
> 
> Odd...  but I'd guess it's something between their web server & database.
> 
>> On 7/11/19 9:51 AM, Robert Webb wrote:
>> Are we having yet another CDN meltdown or is it isolated to just reddit?
> 
> -- 
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   Yogi Berra
> 
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
> 

Re: OffTopic: Telecom Fraud

[Mel Beckman]

Dovid,

You are correct that your message is off topic. I respectfully ask that you 
honor the rules of this mailing list and refrain from off topic posts. They 
simply add noise to an otherwise useful and highly germane experts resource.

-mel beckman

On Apr 23, 2019, at 1:24 PM, Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:



On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 4:18 PM Paul Timmins 
mailto:p...@telcodata.us>> wrote:
I guarantee you that if carriers were made civilly or criminally liable
for allowing robodialers to operate on their network, this sort of issue
would end practically overnight. Robodialer calling patterns are
obvious, and I'd imagine any tech could give you a criteria to search
for in the CDR streams to identify them and shut them off in hours.

Problem is, they're lucrative to provide services to, and there is
immunity on the carrier's part to these sorts of issues. SHAKEN/STIR
nonwithstanding (I don't think we'll see widespread adoption of this
within a decade, even with a government mandate as there's still a
massive embedded base of switches that can't support it and never will).

It may be incredibly frustrating, but there's plenty of money to be made
in prolonging the problem.


That was my thought as well. From what I heard last 50% of the calls are fraud. 
That's a lot of money that they are collecting on origination. I also saw this 
https://www.multichannel.com/news/comcast-and-att-test-anti-robocalling-tech 
and did  a test. A client owned a Comcast number and had ATT. I set the CLI to 
the Comcast number and it showed up on the ATT phone as I set it. You would 
think if ATT had the tools in place at the very least it wouldn't display the 
number.

Re: OffTopic: Telecom Fraud

[Mel Beckman]

From the NANOG mailing list FAQ:

“You can help keep NANOG's signal-to-noise ratio high by subscribing to the 
nanog-offto...@lists.blank.org<mailto:nanog-offto...@lists.blank.org> list, and 
migrating digressive conversations there. To subscribe, send mail to 
nanog-offtopic-subscr...@lists.blank.org<mailto:nanog-offtopic-subscr...@lists.blank.org>
 and reply to the confirm message it will generate.”

-mel via cell

On Apr 23, 2019, at 1:53 PM, Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:

Dovid,

You are correct that your message is off topic. I respectfully ask that you 
honor the rules of this mailing list and refrain from off topic posts. They 
simply add noise to an otherwise useful and highly germane experts resource.

-mel beckman

On Apr 23, 2019, at 1:24 PM, Dovid Bender 
mailto:do...@telecurve.com>> wrote:



On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 4:18 PM Paul Timmins 
mailto:p...@telcodata.us>> wrote:
I guarantee you that if carriers were made civilly or criminally liable
for allowing robodialers to operate on their network, this sort of issue
would end practically overnight. Robodialer calling patterns are
obvious, and I'd imagine any tech could give you a criteria to search
for in the CDR streams to identify them and shut them off in hours.

Problem is, they're lucrative to provide services to, and there is
immunity on the carrier's part to these sorts of issues. SHAKEN/STIR
nonwithstanding (I don't think we'll see widespread adoption of this
within a decade, even with a government mandate as there's still a
massive embedded base of switches that can't support it and never will).

It may be incredibly frustrating, but there's plenty of money to be made
in prolonging the problem.


That was my thought as well. From what I heard last 50% of the calls are fraud. 
That's a lot of money that they are collecting on origination. I also saw this 
https://www.multichannel.com/news/comcast-and-att-test-anti-robocalling-tech 
and did  a test. A client owned a Comcast number and had ATT. I set the CLI to 
the Comcast number and it showed up on the ATT phone as I set it. You would 
think if ATT had the tools in place at the very least it wouldn't display the 
number.

Re: Packetstream - how does this not violate just about every provider's ToS?

[Mel Beckman]

Anne,

With all due respect, you haven’t yet cited an example of an ISP TOS at “every 
provider” that this new company’s product violates. I’m not asking you to 
critique TORs, I’m asking that you tell us the TOS restriction that you believe 
is so obvious to everyone? Because it’s not obvious to me, and I own an ISP. 

-mel via cell

> On Apr 26, 2019, at 7:41 AM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq.  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 26, 2019, at 6:10 AM, Matthew Kaufman  wrote:
>> 
>> So providers should stamp this out (because it is “bad”) and support 
>> customers who are running TOR nodes (because those are “good”). Did I get 
>> that right?
> 
> If that is how you see it, then it's right for you.  At no time did I mention 
> TOR, nor will I get dragged into that discussion.
> 
> Anne
> 
> Attorney at Law
> GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant
> Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
> Legislative Consultant
> CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy
> Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
> Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
> Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute
> Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS
> California Bar Association
> Cal. Bar Cyberspace Law Committee
> Colorado Cyber Committee
> Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
> 
> 

Re: Public Subnet re-assignments

[Mel Beckman]

Michel is right. This is a common configuration error: failing to have the mask 
agree on all interfaces. This is indeed what you would see.

 -mel

On Jun 25, 2019, at 4:07 PM, Michel Py 
mailto:michel...@tsisemi.com>> wrote:

>  Scott wrote :
> No nothing like that. I'm just removing the .0/30 and 4/30 subnets and adding 
> .0/29.
> To  your previous question, yes .0 and .3 are unused. Once I change the 
> subnet .3
> becomes a usable IP and it's getting hammered with traffic, causing packet 
> loss.

You change the subnet mask on both sides, right ?

Looks to me like expected behavior. On the sending router, with a /30 mask the 
.3 address is not usable, so the sending router does not send traffic.
When you change to the /29 mask, .3 becomes usable, the sending router ARPs it, 
and starts sending traffic.

In a way, that is possibly good news, as it allows you do find out that you may 
have a DOS or a DDOS attack going on your .3 address.

Michel.



On 6/25/19 3:30 PM, Mel Beckman wrote:
> Also, what do you mean by “join to /30 public subnets to a /29”? You can’t 
> overlap subnets, if that’s what you’re thinking.
>
>  -mel
>
>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 3:27 PM, Mel Beckman 
>> mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:
>>
>> You’re using just the two middle IPs in the four that make up the /30 set, 
>> right? IOW, the subnet x.x.x.0/30 should have .0 and .3 unused (they’re 
>> broadcast), and you use .1 and .2.
>>
>> -mel
>>
>>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Scott 
>>> mailto:sc...@viviotech.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> First, sorry if this is a bit of a noob question.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to find a way of preventing a slew of traffic to an IP, or
>>> IP's, when I join two /30 public subnets to a /29. It appears that while
>>> the ranges are /30 someone is trying to brute-force the network and/or
>>> broadcast addresses for the ranges. When I change them to be a /29, now
>>> the router sees the traffic and starts dropping packets. Are there any
>>> suggestions for mitigating this behavior or is it just the nature of the
>>> beast?
>>>
>>> --
>>> 101010
>>>
>>>
--
101010

TSI Disclaimer:  This message and any files or text attached to it are intended 
only for the recipients named above and contain information that may be 
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forward, copy, use or otherwise disclose this communication or the information 
contained herein. In the event you have received this message in error, please 
notify the sender immediately by replying to this message, and then delete all 
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Re: really amazon?

[Mel Beckman]

So why not just say so?

 -mel 

> On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:12 PM, John Von Essen  wrote:
> 
> Really??? You cant parse “User unknown”... 
> 
> Dan is simply pointed out how ridiculous it is that amazon lists a 
> non-existent email address with Arin for abuse.
> 
> So yeah... really amazon?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 29, 2019, at 7:07 PM, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>> 
>> Dan,
>> 
>> I don’t really have the time to parse the debug output you sent. If you want 
>> me, or most others, to pay attention to your post, please provide a more 
>> detailed explanation of what the deal is than “Really, amazon?”
>> 
>> -mel
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:03 PM, Dan Hollis  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Amazon, you really should know better.
>>> 
>>> Source ip: 54.240.4.4
>>> 
>>> https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=54.240.4.4
>>> 
>>> Source Registry ARIN
>>> Kind Group
>>> Full Name Amazon SES Abuse
>>> Handle ASA152-ARIN
>>> Email email-ab...@amazon.com
>>> 
>>>>>> RCPT To:
>>> <<< 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected.
>>> 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
>>>>>> DATA
>>> <<< 503 #5.5.1 RCPT first
>>> 
>>> Jul 29 09:47:27 yuri sendmail[14067]: x6TGlQe4014062: 
>>> to=, ctladdr= (500/500), 
>>> delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:01, mailer=esmtp92, 
>>> relay=amazon-smtp.amazon.com. [207.171.188.4], dsn=5.1.1, stat=User unknown
>> 
> 

Re: really amazon?

[Mel Beckman]

Dan,

I don’t really have the time to parse the debug output you sent. If you want 
me, or most others, to pay attention to your post, please provide a more 
detailed explanation of what the deal is than “Really, amazon?”

  -mel


> On Jul 29, 2019, at 4:03 PM, Dan Hollis  wrote:
> 
> Amazon, you really should know better.
> 
> Source ip: 54.240.4.4
> 
> https://search.arin.net/rdap/?query=54.240.4.4
> 
> Source Registry ARIN
> Kind Group
> Full Name Amazon SES Abuse
> Handle ASA152-ARIN
> Email email-ab...@amazon.com
> 
 RCPT To:
> <<< 550 #5.1.0 Address rejected.
> 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown
 DATA
> <<< 503 #5.5.1 RCPT first
> 
> Jul 29 09:47:27 yuri sendmail[14067]: x6TGlQe4014062: 
> to=, ctladdr= (500/500), 
> delay=00:00:01, xdelay=00:00:01, mailer=esmtp92, 
> relay=amazon-smtp.amazon.com. [207.171.188.4], dsn=5.1.1, stat=User unknown

Re: The Curious Case of 143.95.0.0/16

[Mel Beckman]

Ronald,

I have one question, “of late”, regarding your post: Is it “Antia” or “Anita”? 

:)

 -mel 

> On Aug 27, 2019, at 11:27 PM, Ronald F. Guilmette  
> wrote:
> 
> Fair Warning:  Those of you not enamored of my long-winded exposés of
> various remarkable oddities of the IPv4 address space may wish to click
> on the tiny little wastebasket icons on your mail clients at this
> point.  For the rest of you, please read on.  I think you may find the
> following story intriguing.  It contains at least a few surprising
> twists.
> 
> +_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_
> 
> 
> Our story today consists of three acts.
> 
> 
> Act 1 - It is Born
> --
> 
> In mid-February of 1990 a new venture-capital backed company was formed in
> Sunnyvale, California.  In some ways it was no different than the hundreds
> or thousands of hopeful high-tech startups that had been formed in Silicon
> Valley, both before and since.  It started with a hopeful dream that, in
> the end, just didn't work out.
> 
> The founders of this company settled initially on a temporary placeholder
> company name, XYZ Corporation:
> 
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CkDNKq4M1DQKuTxBBhlYxUNAjU2cvDnY/view
> 
> The mission of the company was to design and manufacture so-called X-Windows
> terminals.  These would be diskless workstations, complete with CPUs, color
> (CRT) displays, graphics, memory, and an ethernet interface.  The basic
> idea what that such a diskless workstation could run the free X-Windows
> client software, and that the system would be cheaper than ordinary PeeCees
> due to it not having any hard drives or optical drives.
> 
> By some odd twist of fate, I myself was working in the same geographic area
> as a software engineer at around the same time, but I worked for a different
> Silicon Valley startup, just down the road from XYZ Corporation.  And by a
> rather remarkable coincidence, the company I worked for had exactly the
> same goal and mission as the XYZ Corporation.  The name of this other
> X-Windows workstation startup was Network Computing Devices, or just "NCD"
> for short.
> 
> Quite obviously, both companies were inherently "network-centric" and thus,
> both requested and were granted blocks of IPv4 addresses.  That wasn't at
> all within my area of responsibility at NCD, so I don't know who actually
> issued those blocks.  My guess, based on published historical accounts,
> was that it was most probably Dr. Jon Postel who assigned the blocks.  I'm
> sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> Months passed, and eventually the founders of XYZ Corporation settled on
> something they would use as a permanent replacement for their temporary
> placeholder corporate name.  They decided to call the thing Athenix, Inc.
> Once they had settled on that name, they filed papers to update their
> records with the California Secretary of State's office:
> 
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/1dUjsvSkzzdzUsIbIZCS7RF0afsI3uU0l/view
> 
> At some point, they also and likewise updated the ARIN WHOIS record for the
> /16 block which had been assigned to them, on or about 1990-09-06, as was
> appropriate to reflect their new permanent corporate identity:
> 
>https://pastebin.com/raw/YbH6zYrR
> 
> More time passed and eventually it became clear that the entire world was
> not in fact breathlessly waiting for -two- companies to bring to market
> diskless X-Windows workstations.  In fact, as history now shows, market
> demand would not support even one such company over the long term.
> 
> Thus it came to pass in the year 1993 that an all-too-familiar end-of-life
> ritual played out once again in Silicon Valley.  At Athenix, Inc. HQ in
> Sunnyvale, the people were all let go, including the founders.  The desks,
> the chairs, the phones, the computers, and the tools were all sold at
> auction, with the proceeds going to the preferred shareholders, i.e. the
> poor fools who had put up all of the money for this now-failed venture in
> the first place, the venture capitalists.  Foremost among those in this
> instance, was the venerable Menlo Park venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins.
> 
> I've confirmed this historical account of the rise and fall of the original
> 1990-vintage Athenix, Inc. in multiple phone and email exchanges with both
> the original CEO of the original Athenix, Mr. Robert ("Bob") Garrow. lately
> of Los Altos, California, and also the original CTO of the company, Mr. John
> Garman, lately of Reno, Nevada.
> 
> 
> Act 2 - Rebirth - The Athenix Phoenix
> -
> 
> Fast forward fifteen years.  On April 22, 2008 a pair of gentlemen in
> the Commonwealth of Massachusetts elected to establish a new corporate
> entity within the commonwealth. It's name would be Athenic, Inc.[1]
> 
>https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jYUqtgYprI4iyJkTT91-yRBYJt0c2ufF/view
>

Re: IPAM recommendations

[Mel Beckman]

Todd,

I don’t think this is a reasonable understanding of Nanog. Nanog members ask 
each other for operational tool recommendations all the time, and since these 
products are right up the alley of Nanog’s mission — network operations — it’s 
a perfectly reasonable use of Nanog.

But you read a single comment without researching any Nanog history, which 
would immediately show you how frequently Nanog serves in just this kind of 
valuable role, THAT’S unkind.

 -mel

On Sep 5, 2019, at 2:56 AM, Todd Underwood 
mailto:toddun...@gmail.com>> wrote:

i don't think that this is a reasonable use of nanog.  if you have research to 
present and then a question to ask, that's totally great.  this is especially 
true if you can add evaluative criteria and information before asking questions 
from people who have relevant experience.

you read a single web page and are asking nanog to do your homework for you.  
that's unkind and is taking advantage of the attention and goodwill of the 
community here.  this is becoming a pattern.  please either do some research 
yourself and start a conversation substantively, or look to paid consultants to 
evaluate your software/hardware/datacenter space/networking gear etc.

best,

t



On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 4:42 AM Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:
Not much beyond this, 
https://appuals.com/the-5-best-ip-address-management-ipam-software/

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 5:39 PM Todd Underwood 
mailto:toddun...@gmail.com>> wrote:
What have you evaluated so far?  Can you share your evaluation grid, how you 
selected the candidates, how you are weighting criteria and specific 
interesting findings so far?

Thanks!

t

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 4:37 AM Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:
Looking for IPAM recommendations, preferably open source, API is a plus (almost 
must, almost..). 40-50K IPs to be managed.

thanks in advance.

Re: IPAM recommendations

[Mel Beckman]

I agree with Phil, Netbox is a great opens source IPAM project. We currently 
use ManageEngine, but I plan to switch to Netbox when our current license is up 
for renewal. NetBox. The project is supported by Digital Ocean, which is the 
kind of corporate sponsorship that keeps open source project from dying out.

It’s one of the few IPAM products that recognizes that IP addresses can be 
assigned to interfaces on a device, not necessarily the device itself. It also 
supports interfaces having multiple IP addresses. Netbox uses Postgres under 
the covers, which has IP addresses as a native data type. That means you can 
also build your own SQL queries to interface with other systems.

The tool is not frilly, but has all the features an IPAM should have for 
accurate and timely resource management. Plus the code looks clean.

 -mel

On Sep 5, 2019, at 6:48 AM, Phillip Carroll 
mailto:phill...@phmgmt.com>> wrote:



https://github.com/netbox-community/netbox


From: NANOG 
mailto:nanog-bounces+phillipc=phmgmt@nanog.org>>
 On Behalf Of Andrew Latham
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 8:20 AM
Cc: nanog mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: IPAM recommendations

 [EXTERNAL EMAIL]

Please check the mailing list archives as a resource. I made a short list last 
time https://lathama.net/DCIM which looks to be June 20th 2018

On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 3:37 AM Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:
Looking for IPAM recommendations, preferably open source, API is a plus (almost 
must, almost..). 40-50K IPs to be managed.

thanks in advance.


--
- Andrew "lathama" Latham -

Re: Cogent & FDCServers: Knowingly aiding and abetting fraud and theft?

[Mel Beckman]

A quick check of one of your facts produces unexpected results, so you might 
want to perform more research. According the APNIC, 139.44.0.0/16  does not 
“belong unambiguously to the Port Authority of Melbourne”. It belongs to an 
individual, with an office address at a building called “Port Authority of 
Melbourne”:

person: Rob Shute

address:Port of Melbourne Authority
Level 47 South
525 Collins St

country:AU
phone:  +61 3 9628 7613
e-mail: d...@pma.vic.gov.au<mailto:d...@pma.vic.gov.au>
nic-hdl:RS54-AP
remarks:--
remarks:imported from ARIN object:
remarks:
remarks:poc-handle: RS546-ARIN
remarks:is-role: N
remarks:last-name: Shute
remarks:first-name: Rob
remarks:street: Port of Melbourne Authority
Level 47 South
525 Collins St
remarks:country: AU
remarks:mailbox: d...@pma.vic.gov.au<mailto:d...@pma.vic.gov.au>
remarks:bus-phone: +61 3 9628 7613
remarks:reg-date: 1970-01-01
remarks:changed: hostmas...@arin.poc<mailto:hostmas...@arin.poc> 
20001127
remarks:source: ARIN
remarks:
remarks:--
notify: d...@pma.vic.gov.au<mailto:d...@pma.vic.gov.au>
mnt-by: 
MNT-ERX-PRTMELAUTH-NON-AU<https://wq.apnic.net/static/search.html?query=MNT-ERX-PRTMELAUTH-NON-AU>
last-modified:  2008-09-04T07:31:33Z
source: APNIC

The building called the Port Authority of Melbourne is not, by all accounts, a 
government agency. It’s just the name of a 54-story office building, like the 
World Trade Center in NYC. In fact, World Trade Centre (Melbourne) is another 
name for the building, and although it houses the Port of Melbourne Authority 
agency (on Level 4, not Level 47), it appears to be largely just a toney 
address for business offices. Some, perhaps, not unlike American “Mail Boxes 
Etc” (although I haven’t confirmed this). But the following Wikipedia excerpt 
says this unambiguously:

The building currently houses some offices of the headquarters of Victoria 
Police, and the Victoria Police Museum , a collection of exhibits and 
memorabilia from over 150 years of policing in Victoria.[3] It also houses 
offices for companies, including Thales Australia.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_of_Melbourne_Authority

Now, I’m not an Ossie, and in fact have never been down under, but it seems 
likely that the address in the registration is akin to a US business having a 
World Trade Center address in NYC. It means nothing as far as APNIC asset 
ownership is concerned. It’s just an address.

I could be wrong. However, it seems a simple fact to verify by calling 
management at that building. I tried sending email to the registered 
“.gov.au<http://gov.au>” address:

d...@pma.vic.gov.au<mailto:d...@pma.vic.gov.au>

But the domain does not exist.

 -mel beckman

On Sep 6, 2019, at 1:30 AM, Ronald F. Guilmette 
mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:

Few of you here probably know about this, but nearly a week ago now
an article appeared in South Africa's largest and most popular online
tech publication, MyBroadband.co.za<http://MyBroadband.co.za>.  It detailed 
many, but certainly not
all of the results of my multi-month investigation of a massive and
ongoing fraud involving the theft of large numbers of large (generally
/16 or larger) abandoned legacy blocks, taken from the AFRINIC region
and beyond:

https://mybroadband.co.za/news/internet/318205-the-big-south-african-ip-address-heist-how-millions-are-made-on-the-grey-market.html

For various editorial reasons, the article that was published actually
downplayed the magnitude of the of the thefts quite dramatically.  The
totality of the IPv4 space that has been stolen or squatted, primarily
but not exclusively, from South African companies and South African national
goverment agencies and departments is actually at least 5x bigger than what
was reported in the MyBroadband.co.za<http://MyBroadband.co.za> article.

The overwhelming majority of this stolen and squatted IPv4 space has
been helpfully routed by Cogent (AS174), to their customer, FDCServers
of Chicago, and then on to the prefered destinations of a certain Mr.
Elad Cohen of Israel, and his company Netstyle Atarim, Ltd.  (I have
saved traceroutes up the wazoo that prove the involvement of FDCServers,
in particular, in all of this.)

Mr. Cohen has been exceptionally prolific in his IPv4 theft and squatting
activities, basically grabbing everything that wasn't nailed down, both
within the AFRINIC region and also within the APNIC region.

In order to try to legitimize all of these thefts and squats, Mr. Cohen
created quite a sizable number of fradulent route: objects within the
Merit/RADB data base which, as most here should already know, has
essentially zero authentication of any kind before it allows J. Random
Luser to add pretty much any any route: object he wants to the RADB.

Here's a full listing of all of

Re: Cogent & FDCServers: Knowingly aiding and abetting fraud and theft?

[Mel Beckman]

Ron,

I’m just saying that I randomly checked one fact and it doesn’t meet the level 
of positive certainty that you asserted. It’s thus reasonable to ask you to 
double check your research all around. I’m not willing to be your unpaid copy 
editor, so let me know when you’ve done a double check and I’ll be willing to 
invest time in your story again. 

-mel via cell

> On Sep 6, 2019, at 2:07 PM, Ronald F. Guilmette  
> wrote:
> 
> In message <23540.1567802...@segfault.tristatelogic.com>, I wrote:
> 
>> Is anyone disputing that 168.198.0.0/16 belongs to the Australian
>> national government, or that AS174, Cogent was, until quite recently,
>> routing that down to their pals at FDCServers who then were routing
>> it down to their customer, Elad Cohen?  If so, I ask that people look
>> up this network in the RIPE Routing history tool and ALSO that folks
>> have a look at, and explain, the following traceroute from August 23:
>> 
>>   https://pastebin.com/raw/2nJtbwjs
> 
> My apologies.  In my furious haste, I botched that one URL.  Here is the
> correct file conatining my traceroute to 168.198.12.242 as performed by
> me on August 23rd:
> 
>https://pastebin.com/raw/TrLbGZuW
> 
> 
> Regards,
> rfg

Re: Elad Cohen

[Mel Beckman]

I think it’s time to take this name-calling, libel-threatening tirade off of 
Nanog, gentlemen. I can’t see any further relevance in this discussion to 
Nanog’s mission of operational issues, and you all just burn CPU cycles the 
rest of us don’t want to give up. Have a nice day.

 -mel beckman

On Sep 19, 2019, at 2:34 AM, Elad Cohen 
mailto:e...@netstyle.io>> wrote:

Mr. Ronald Guilmette

Everything you did and you wrote in this forum until today, including 
mudslinging and slandering, including thieves and crooks, they are libel for 
all intents and purposes with everything it implies, and this without to 
display any proof.

We return and say, in our hands are all the agreements of the purchases that 
we've purchased properly with our best money.

It is hinted from your tongue-lashing, that you are connected clearly with 
Spamhaus and ARIN, that have an interest to receive the ranges, following the 
increase of value of the ranges in the free market and the lack of them.

All of this subject was transferred to our lawyers, due to the mudslinging and 
slandering and the nicknames you wrote thieves and crooks in this forum, a 
libel suit against you will be filed with a high amount, of course that all of 
the written proofs an agreements regarding the legal purchases that we've made 
will be added to the libel suit.

Copies:
Mr. Bennet Kelley

From: NANOG mailto:nanog-boun...@nanog.org>> on behalf 
of Ronald F. Guilmette mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 11:22 AM
To: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> 
mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: Elad Cohen

In message 
mailto:d6411136-73d4-9712-5303-2e364bb29...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>>,
Masataka Ohta 
mailto:mo...@necom830.hpcl.titech.ac.jp>> 
wrote:

>Ronald F. Guilmette wrote:
>
> > So, if you are looking for a Crime here, i.e. one defined under law,
> > there isn't one.
>
>You don't know how broadly crime of fraud is defined by the current code.
>
>Just injecting false route information may not be a crime.
>
>However, doing so for financial gain maybe a crime of fraud.

I guess that there is something that either you, or perhaps I, are not
understanding here.

Did you mean to suggest that either Mr. Cohen or any of the friendly networks
that he has persuaded to announce routes for him (by paying them to do so)
are doing any of this just for their health?

Financial gain appears to me to be the obvious motivation for all of this.

>False registration for financial gain by deceiving a registrar
>is definitely a crime, regardless of what is registered.
>
>See the actual code:
>
>   https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2015C00507

Allow me to clarify.

In the case if the APNIC region blocks that I have called out, I have -no-
evidence to suggest that there has been any deception or untoward manipulation
of registry information whatsoever.

With respect to the AFRINIC region blocks I have called out, if you have a
relevant citation from the criminal code of the island nation of Mauritius,
I would be most appreciative if you would share that with me.  It may come
in handy at some point.


Regards,
rfg

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

> ISPs and CDNs don't have to provide service to anyone. 

You mean like bakers don’t have to sell cakes to anyone? :)

 -mel 

> On Aug 6, 2019, at 9:40 PM, John Levine  wrote:
> 
> ISPs and CDNs don't have to provide service to
> anyone.

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

John,

Please reread my comments. I did not say “carriers” and specifically excluded 
the FCC’s definition. I said “Common Carriers”, as defined by Common Law. The 
DMCA asserts that they must operate as CCs under this definition: in order to 
get protection under Safe Harbor they must function as a “passive conduit” of 
information.  

-mel via cell

> On Aug 6, 2019, at 7:36 PM, John Levine  wrote:
> 
> In article <6956e76b-e6b7-409f-a636-c7607bfd8...@beckman.org> you write:
>> Mehmet,
>> 
>> I’m not sure if you understand the terms under which ISPs operate as “common 
>> carriers”, and thus enjoy immunity from lawsuits due to the acts of their 
>> customers.
> 
> ISPs in the U.S. are not carriers and never have been.  Even the ISPs
> that are subsidaries of telcos, which are common carriers for their
> telco operations, are not common carriers for their ISPs.
> 
> This should not come as surprise to anyone who's spent 15 minutes
> looking at the relevant law.
> 
> ISPs are probably protected by 47 USC 230(c)(1) but all of the case
> law I know is related to web sites or hosting providers.
> 
> 

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

“Now, enough of this off-topic stuff and back to our regularly scheduled 
programming.”

Keith, what could be more on-topic than an ISP’s status as a common carrier? 
Seems pretty operational to me. 

 -mel 

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Keith Medcalf  wrote:
> 
> Now, enough of this off-topic stuff and back to our regularly scheduled 
> programming.

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Mehmet,

I’m not sure if you understand the terms under which ISPs operate as “common 
carriers”, and thus enjoy immunity from lawsuits due to the acts of their 
customers. ISPs such as Cloudfare can no more disconnect customers for legal, 
if offensive, content than the phone company can, without losing that common 
carrier status.

Cloudfare is being foolish, and hypocritical. They freely, for example, carry 
the equally offensive content of Antifa. Are they going to cut them off too?

In America we have the right to free speech, and the right to use common 
carriers to carry that speech. If a common carrier chooses to censor legal 
speech, which is what Cloudfare has done, then it loses its CC status and can 
now be sued for that speech.

 -mel beckman

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Keith Medcalf  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sunday, 4 August, 2019 21:41, Mehmet Akcin  wrote:
>> 
>> Most of us who operate internet services believe in not being the
>> moderator of internet. We provide a service and that’s it. Obviously
>> there are some established laws around protecting copyrights, and
>> other things which force us to legally take action and turn things
>> down when reported.
> 
>> What can we do better as network operators about hate sites like
>> 8Chan?
> 
>> I applaud cloudflare’s (perhaps slightly late) decision on kicking
>> 8chan off its platform today after El Paso attack.
>> https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/
> 
>> I am sure there are many sites like this out there, but could network
>> operators do anything to make these sites “not so easy” to be found,
>> reached, and used to end innocent lives?
> 
> I do not quite understand this.  
> 
> In days of yore, nutters used to send their screeds to Newspapers, TV and 
> Radio stations.  Did you shut them down or move them to frequencies that 
> could not be received with COTS TVs and Radios?  Did you ban the newspapers, 
> put them out of business, or make it so their broadsheet was only available 
> by travelling by aeroplane for 8 hours before breakfast?
> 
> Of course not, you silly duck!
> 
> There is an advantage to having all the nutters congregating on one place -- 
> you know exactly where to find them.  Granted, the advantage is not exactly 
> the same as we apply to politicians (or lawyers) who are kepts all in one 
> place so that kinetic weapons can dispatch the whole lot at one go if 
> necessary.
> 
> However, your solution of sweeping things you do not like under the rug is 
> ill-conceived if not brain-dead in conception and you must not be permitted 
> to carry out your objectives.  The fate of the free world depends on it.
> 
> However, do not worry.  US AG William Barr is doing a fine job deploying his 
> "backdoors".  Why just the other day one of them was used to shut down the 
> Georgia State Public Safety Services, and prior to that his "backdoors" were 
> used to shut down several city computer systems in Florida and even the City 
> of Baltimore.  Good work with those backdoors, Mr. Barr.  Job well done!
> 
> It is nincompoops who do not think about what they are doing that create such 
> a bloody mess of things.  They should let the adults take care of it.
> 
> Now, enough of this off-topic stuff and back to our regularly scheduled 
> programming.
> 
> -- 
> The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
> lot about anticipated traffic volume.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Patrick,

You’re confusing the FCC’s definition of common carrier for telecom regulatory 
purposes, and the DMCA definition, which specifically grants ISPs protection 
from litigation through its Safe Harbor provision, as long as they operate as 
pure common carriers:

“Section 512(a) provides a safe harbor from liability for ISPs, provided that 
they operate their networks within certain statutory bounds, generally 
requiring the transmission of third-party information without interference, 
modification, storage, or selection. [emphasis mine]

http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/articles/pdf/v27/27HarvJLTech257.pdf

 -mel

On Aug 5, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Patrick W. Gilmore 
mailto:patr...@ianai.net>> wrote:

Mel:

My understanding is ISPs are not Common Carriers. Didn’t we just have a big 
debate about this w/r/t Network Neutrality? I Am Not A Lawyer (hell, I am not 
even an ISP :), but if any legal experts want to chime in, please feel free to 
educate us.

Put another way, ISPs are not phone companies. Moreover, ISPs - and CDNs and 
hosting providers and etc. - can have terms of service which do not allow 
certain types of content on their platform. Again, that is is my understanding. 
Happy to be educated by someone who specializes in this type of law. I know 
there are a couple such people on NANOG-l.

--
TTFN,
patrick

P.S. Interesting choice equating a group founded on the principals that “Nazis 
are bad” and a group espousing Nazi ideas. But that’s very off-topic, so if you 
want to discuss, please do so directly.


On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:

Mehmet,

I’m not sure if you understand the terms under which ISPs operate as “common 
carriers”, and thus enjoy immunity from lawsuits due to the acts of their 
customers. ISPs such as Cloudfare can no more disconnect customers for legal, 
if offensive, content than the phone company can, without losing that common 
carrier status.

Cloudfare is being foolish, and hypocritical. They freely, for example, carry 
the equally offensive content of Antifa. Are they going to cut them off too?

In America we have the right to free speech, and the right to use common 
carriers to carry that speech. If a common carrier chooses to censor legal 
speech, which is what Cloudfare has done, then it loses its CC status and can 
now be sued for that speech.

-mel beckman

On Aug 5, 2019, at 8:06 AM, Keith Medcalf 
mailto:kmedc...@dessus.com>> wrote:


On Sunday, 4 August, 2019 21:41, Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:

Most of us who operate internet services believe in not being the
moderator of internet. We provide a service and that’s it. Obviously
there are some established laws around protecting copyrights, and
other things which force us to legally take action and turn things
down when reported.

What can we do better as network operators about hate sites like
8Chan?

I applaud cloudflare’s (perhaps slightly late) decision on kicking
8chan off its platform today after El Paso attack.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/terminating-service-for-8chan/

I am sure there are many sites like this out there, but could network
operators do anything to make these sites “not so easy” to be found,
reached, and used to end innocent lives?

I do not quite understand this.

In days of yore, nutters used to send their screeds to Newspapers, TV and Radio 
stations.  Did you shut them down or move them to frequencies that could not be 
received with COTS TVs and Radios?  Did you ban the newspapers, put them out of 
business, or make it so their broadsheet was only available by travelling by 
aeroplane for 8 hours before breakfast?

Of course not, you silly duck!

There is an advantage to having all the nutters congregating on one place -- 
you know exactly where to find them.  Granted, the advantage is not exactly the 
same as we apply to politicians (or lawyers) who are kepts all in one place so 
that kinetic weapons can dispatch the whole lot at one go if necessary.

However, your solution of sweeping things you do not like under the rug is 
ill-conceived if not brain-dead in conception and you must not be permitted to 
carry out your objectives.  The fate of the free world depends on it.

However, do not worry.  US AG William Barr is doing a fine job deploying his 
"backdoors".  Why just the other day one of them was used to shut down the 
Georgia State Public Safety Services, and prior to that his "backdoors" were 
used to shut down several city computer systems in Florida and even the City of 
Baltimore.  Good work with those backdoors, Mr. Barr.  Job well done!

It is nincompoops who do not think about what they are doing that create such a 
bloody mess of things.  They should let the adults take care of it.

Now, enough of this off-topic stuff and back to our regularly scheduled 
programming.

--
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

The best cure for speech is more speech.

+1E07


On Aug 5, 2019, at 10:05 AM, William Herrin 
mailto:b...@herrin.us>> wrote:

On Sun, Aug 4, 2019 at 8:41 PM Mehmet Akcin 
mailto:meh...@akcin.net>> wrote:
Ok, two mass shootings, touchy topic, lots of emotions this weekend. Going 
straight to the point.

Most of us who operate internet services believe in not being the moderator of 
internet. We provide a service and that’s it. Obviously there are some 
established laws around protecting copyrights, and other things which force us 
to legally take action and turn things down when reported.

What can we do better as network operators about hate sites like 8Chan?

De-anonymize them. Let them say what they'll say and defend their right to say 
it but don't let them hide behind your name. Promise that when the police come 
knocking and it appears to you to be a hate speech site, your privacy policy 
is: none whatsoever.

The best cure for speech is more speech. The President notwithstanding, hateful 
behavior has a hard time surviving the light of day. You shouldn't be the 
censor but you can shine the light.

(Also, as a practical matter the further you force folks to the fringe, the 
harder they are to track and thereby stop. Letting folks know you object by 
terminating their service does them more of a favor than cooperating with law 
enforcement.)

Regards,
Bill Herrin

--
William Herrin
b...@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Keith, 

You’re confusing ISPs that merely provide transport services, such as AT and 
Cloudfare, with information services like FaceBook and Twitter. The Common 
Carrier status for legal protection of ISPs stems from the 1998 DMCA, which 
long preceded the 2015 Network Neutrality act. It provides protection only for 
an ISP that as a “provider merely acts as a data conduit, transmitting digital 
information from one point on a network to another at someone else’s request.” 
The ISP loses that Common Carrier (in the Common Law definition) protection if 
it alters the transmission in any way.

Just because an ISP isn’t a Common Carrier under FCC rules doesn’t mean that it 
isn’t a Common Carrier for other purposes. Trains and planes, for example, are 
Common Carriers, and the FCC has nothing to do with them. But they can’t 
exclude passengers based on their speech (yet, anyway). 

 -mel

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 8:54 AM, Keith Medcalf  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Monday, 5 August, 2019 09:16, Mel Beckman  wrote:
>> 
>> “Now, enough of this off-topic stuff and back to our regularly
>> scheduled programming.”
> 
>> Keith, what could be more on-topic than an ISP’s status as a common
>> carrier? Seems pretty operational to me.
> 
> I think that is closing the barn door after the horse already left.
> 
> It is my understanding that in your fabulous United States of America that 
> "carriers" (meaning having no content serving nor content consuming 
> customers*) may be "common carriers" or can claim to be common carriers.  The 
> rest of you who are not pure carriers are, thanks to Ijit Pai, merely 
> Information Services and do not have common carrier status, nor can you claim 
> to be common carriers.
> 
> A "common carrier" is one who must provide carriage provided the fee for 
> carriage is paid.  This is not the case for "Information Service" providers 
> as they are not required to provide carriage to any who can pay the fee for 
> carriage.
> 
> *I hate the term "content", it is somowhat lame.
> 
> -- 
> The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
> lot about anticipated traffic volume.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Valdis,

The key misunderstanding on your part is the phrase “on your servers”. ISPs 
acting as conduits do not, by definition (in the DMCA), store anything on 
servers. Moreover, the DMCA specifically spells out that safe harbor protection 
“covers acts of transmission, routing, or providing connections for the 
information, as well as the intermediate and transient copies that are made 
automatically in the operation of a network.”

And if the FBI, or whoever, through various technical means, managed to 
discover that illegal information passed through an ISPs network, they have no 
more cause of action than if that traffic passed through AT leased lines. Not 
that they haven’t tried.

 -mel

On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:34 AM, Valdis Klētnieks 
mailto:valdis.kletni...@vt.edu>> wrote:

On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 18:19:06 -0000, Mel Beckman said:
I notice you didn’t provide any actual data to support your position. What,
for example, outside of copyright violations, could ISPs conceivably be liable
for?

You get caught with nuclear weapons data, terrorism-related info, or kiddie
porn on your servers dropped there by a customer, you're going to be wishing
for a safe harbor that extends further than just copyright.

Whether you actually get one is going to depend on a *lot* of details of the
specific incident. At that point, don't listen to me, and don't listen to Anne,
hire a good lawyer who knows exactly what the rules are in your jurisdiction(s)
and listen to them :)

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

LOL! You mean instead of “Keith gets to decide what’s on topic”? 

I didn’t “decide” anything, BTW. I simply pointed out that Common Carrier 
operations is within the NANOG mandate to discuss operational issues. 

 -mel

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 9:30 AM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
> 
> On 8/5/19 11:15 AM, Mel Beckman wrote:
>> Keith, what could be more on-topic than an ISP’s status as a common
>> carrier? Seems pretty operational to me.
> 
> Mel gets to decide what's on topic and off topic for the nanog list?
> 
> :D
> -- 
> Bryan Fields
> 
> 727-409-1194 - Voice
> http://bryanfields.net

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Anne of Many Titles,

I notice you didn’t provide any actual data to support your position. What, for 
example, outside of copyright violations, could ISPs conceivably be liable for? 
Present an argument to make your case. “No, because I’m a lawyer and you’re 
not” is not an argument :)

As clearly stated in DMC 512(a), the safe harbor provision for transitory 
transport, which is what Cloudfare provides,

"protects service providers who are passive conduits from liability for 
copyright infringement, even if infringing traffic passes through their 
networks. In other words, provided the infringing material is being transmitted 
at the request of a third party to a designated recipient, is handled by an 
automated process without human intervention, is not modified in any way, and 
is only temporarily stored on the system, the service provider is not liable 
for the transmission.”

That’s not a law school student opinion. That’s the law itself. As I previously 
said, I’m not talking about the FCC definition of CC. Under DMCA, "service 
providers who are passive conduits” are the essence of the common law 
definition of Common Carrier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier).

 Incidentally, Network Neutrality wasn’t enacted until 2015, and classified 
ISPs as FCC CCs purely to bring them under regulation by the FCC. DMCA was 
passed in 1998, and Safe Harbor is based on the fact that ISPs are “passive 
conduits". NN has nothing to do with the common carrier aspect of ISPs as 
"service providers who are passive conduits”.

 -mel

On Aug 5, 2019, at 9:41 AM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. 
mailto:amitch...@isipp.com>> wrote:



On Aug 5, 2019, at 10:02 AM, Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:

Patrick,

You’re confusing the FCC’s definition of common carrier for telecom regulatory 
purposes, and the DMCA definition, which specifically grants ISPs protection 
from litigation through its Safe Harbor provision, as long as they operate as 
pure common carriers:

“Section 512(a) provides a safe harbor from liability for ISPs, provided that 
they operate their networks within certain statutory bounds, generally 
requiring the transmission of third-party information without interference, 
modification, storage, or selection. [emphasis mine]

http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/articles/pdf/v27/27HarvJLTech257.pdf

-mel

Section 512(a) applies very specifically to the copyright infringement issue as 
addressed in the DMCA.  While I don't disagree that this law school paper, 
written while Lovejoy was a law student, in 2013,  could be read as if ISPs 
were common carriers, they are not, and were not.   Even if it were headed that 
way, actions by the current FTC and administration rolled back net neutrality 
efforts in 2017, four years after this student paper was published.

All that said, this is very arcane stuff, and ever-mutating, so it's not at all 
difficult to see why reasonable people can differ about the meanings of various 
things out there.

Anne

Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy
Dean of Cybersecurity & Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Legislative Consultant
GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
Member: California Bar Association

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Anne,

Is the CLOUD Act germane to North American network operations (the mission of 
NANOG)? My understanding is that this ACT was to help solve problems the FBI 
had with obtaining remote data through overseas service providers, through SCA 
warrants.

SCA already compels U.S.- and Canada-based service providers, via warrant or 
subpoena, to provide requested data stored on servers. It doesn’t matter if the 
data are stored in the U.S. or in another country. I’m not seeing how CLOUD 
impacts any NANOG member, which just encompasses Canada and the US (Mexico has 
its own network operator’s group, LACNOG.)

I’m open to being educated, however.

 -mel


On Aug 6, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Anne P. Mitchell, Esq. 
mailto:amitch...@isipp.com>> wrote:

Hey guys, how about we talk about the CLOUD act now?

Anne

---

Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law
Dean of Cybersecurity & Cyberlaw, Lincoln Law School of San Jose
CEO/President, Institute for Social Internet Public Policy
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law)
Legislative Consultant
GDPR, CCPA (CA) & CCDPA (CO) Compliance Consultant
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute
Former Counsel: Mail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)
Member: California Bar Association

Re: the CLOUD Act (was What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet)

[Mel Beckman]

My final comment on the original proposition of this thread, "What can ISPs do 
better? Removing racism out of internet.” is that no, we can’t remove racism 
from the Internet and still have free speech on, at least, 
democratically-administered Internet realms.

 -mel

On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:43 PM, Keith Medcalf 
mailto:kmedc...@dessus.com>> wrote:


On Tuesday, 6 August, 2019 13:21, Valdis Kletnieks 
mailto:valdis.kletni...@vt.edu>> wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 12:54:55 -0600, "Keith Medcalf" said:

I realize that the purpose of the terms "serve a demand" if legal
globedey-glook phrased to pompously instill in the reader some
feeling of the majesty and due regard for the process (etc), but
in reality it is just pompous for "send a letter requesting" is it not?

I don't know about that.  Most definitions of "pompous" don't include
the implied phrase "or end up in a cell on a contempt citation".

In Canada that is called "Extortion" and is a crime punishable by a number of 
years in prison.  If the "implication" of the phraseology is to convey a threat 
in order to obtain compliance with the object of the statement, then the entire 
process is extortion from the get go.  Since this cannot possibly be the case, 
your assertion must be incorrect, and there can be no such implication.

Moveover I would wonder what exactly one would be in contempt of?  The 
politicians who voted in favour of the passage of the Act?  Contempt for the 
sender of the letter?  None of these are capable of being "contempt" in any 
actionable sense.  In fact, failure to comply with an order of a judge who 
makes an "administrative" order (that is, who is not acting as a judge, but is 
merely an administrative functionary or rubber-stamper) does not constitute 
contempt of court in Canada (since there was no actual due process or court 
function of judicial judgement involved to be in contempt of).

Feel free to be the test case to find out if a demand under the CLOUD
act can result in a US contempt citation. :)

Anyone can bring whatever proceedings they like before any court at any time 
for any reason or no reason at all without regard to the probability of success 
of those proceedings.  So whether or not "a demand under the CLOUD act can 
result in a US contempt citation" is quite meaningless.

Of course, I only have first-hand knowledge of legal procedures in free 
countries, so how the United States does things is not entirely within my 
experience.

--
The fact that there's a Highway to Hell but only a Stairway to Heaven says a 
lot about anticipated traffic volume.

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Anne,

I can see the 4th amendment violation here, but are there operational issues 
with ISPs? For example, CALEA requires telecommunications carriers (or VoIP 
providers) to provide voice data streams to law enforcement agencies in real 
time. NSLs require production of customer information in secret, which means 
the ISP needs internal security procedures to avoid criminal violations of the 
terms of the NSL. So impacted ISP’s have a clear operational concerns in both 
cases.

What is the CLOUD Act’s operational impact? Is it the same as responding to an 
ordinary subpoena or search warrant? FISA, for example, has similar 4A issues, 
but no operational component for ISPs (the government intercepts data using its 
own means in the Internet backbone). 

One operational issue with CLOUD might be how much data an ISP turns over in a 
CLOUD Act request (which I gather still requires due process for the ISP). For 
example, when your example law enforcement agency in the UK uses their power 
under a CLOUD executive agreement to collect a foreign target’s data from a US 
ISP, can the ISP legally sanitize that data to mask US citizens information? 
This is, after all, the standard with FISA 702 (requiring the gov to get a 
warrant before looking at information collected on US intelligence agencies 
surveilling foreign targets). If that’s the case, then there is an operational 
interest in ISP-operated software to do the sanitizing.

If it’s not the case, and the ISP has to turn over anything requested, I’m not 
seeing the operational impact. The technical effort is no different than with 
today’s domestic subpoenas, which ISPs deal with all the time.

 -mel

 
> On Aug 6, 2019, at 11:17 AM, b...@theworld.com wrote:
> 
> 
> On August 5, 2019 at 19:02 valdis.kletni...@vt.edu (Valdis Klētnieks) wrote:
>> 
>> Hint:  The DMCA has the text about data stored on ISP servers because many 
>> ISPs
>> aren't mere conduits.  And this thread got started regarding a CDN, which is 
>> very much
>> all about storing data on servers.
> 
> I acted as an expert witness for the FBI regarding a case which
> revolved around whether email spending time on intermediate servers is
> "storing" the data or is it just another form of wire transmission?
> 
> I don't think they came to a definitive conclusion, the case was
> basically settled out of court, plea-bargained I think, it was a
> criminal matter.
> 
> But needless to say, once again, a non-legal-expert's reading of
> "storing data on servers" doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the
> legal world.
> 
> It turned out to be very important at least in theory since illegally
> intercepting a wire transmission falls under a completely different
> law than illegally accessing stored data, the defendant was arguing
> that he'd been charged under the wrong law, and the court agreed it
> was a valid point to investigate.
> 
> So my phone rang and I tried to help with the part of that (technical)
> I knew something about, how internet email is transmitted etc. But I
> was briefed on the legal aspects to help me focus on what they needed
> and I agreed it isn't /prima facie/ obvious.
> 
> For example you may see storing of email (which may not even mean to a
> physical disk) during transmission through intermediate servers as
> "storing of data" but then again many network devices have various
> buffering mechanisms in which data might reside for some amount of
> time. Are they legally distinguishable? Should they be? etc.
> 
> -- 
>-Barry Shein
> 
> Software Tool & Die| b...@theworld.com | 
> http://www.TheWorld.com
> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD   | 800-THE-WRLD
> The World: Since 1989  | A Public Information Utility | *oo*

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Valdis,

A CDN is very much an ISP. It is providing transport for its customers from 
arbitrary Internet destinations, to the customer’s content. The caching done by 
a CDN is incidental to this transport, in accordance with the DMCA. 

The alternative is that you believe CDNs are not protected by safe Harbor. Is 
that the case?

-mel via cell

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Valdis Klētnieks  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 20:40:43 -0000, Mel Beckman said:
>> The key misunderstanding on your part is the phrase “on your servers”. ISPs
>> acting as conduits do not, by definition (in the DMCA), store anything on
>> servers.
> 
> Note that ISPs whose business is 100% "acting as conduits" are in the 
> minority.
> 
> Hint:  The DMCA has the text about data stored on ISP servers because many 
> ISPs
> aren't mere conduits.  And this thread got started regarding a CDN, which is 
> very much
> all about storing data on servers.
> 

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Valdis,

You agree that the CDN content is temporary, no? That is the definition of 
processes used by an ISP providing pure transport services. 

-mel via cell

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:36 PM, Valdis Klētnieks  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 06 Aug 2019 06:15:36 -0000, Mel Beckman said:
> 
>> Not really. The customer provides the content on its own servers. The CDN
>> simply redistributes the content via temporary caching. It’s not a web 
>> hosting
>> provider. The CDN _customer_ hosts the content.
> 
> That's an... interesting.. interpretation.  Most people would see it as the 
> CDN
> doing the hosting, and the customer *providing* the content to be hosted.
> 
> Do you also believe that your outbox is hosting the e-mail I'm replying to, 
> and
> all the MTAs that got involved are just temporary caching?  Or did you provide
> a copy of the mail, and request that the MTAs distribute it?
> 
> (Also, if the CDN isn't a web hosting provider, why is it able to serve up 
> data
> on an http connection?  Hint - at one time, almost the entire web was static
> content, and even today a lot of it is file data not javascript and css. ;)

Re: What can ISPs do better? Removing racism out of internet

[Mel Beckman]

Eric,

Not really. The customer provides the content on its own servers. The CDN 
simply redistributes the content via temporary caching. It’s not a web hosting 
provider. The CDN _customer_ hosts the content.

 -mel beckman

On Aug 5, 2019, at 11:09 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
mailto:eric.kuh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

A CDN is a hosting company. It is the logical continuation and evolution of 
what an httpd hosting/server colo company was twenty years ago, but with more 
geographical scale and a great deal more automation tools.

I have never in my life seen a medium to large-sized hosting company that 
didn't have a ToS reserving the right to discontinue service at any time for 
arbitrary reasons.


On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 7:28 PM Mel Beckman 
mailto:m...@beckman.org>> wrote:
Valdis,

A CDN is very much an ISP. It is providing transport for its customers from 
arbitrary Internet destinations, to the customer’s content. The caching done by 
a CDN is incidental to this transport, in accordance with the DMCA.

The alternative is that you believe CDNs are not protected by safe Harbor. Is 
that the case?

-mel via cell

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Valdis Klētnieks 
> mailto:valdis.kletni...@vt.edu>> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 05 Aug 2019 20:40:43 -, Mel Beckman said:
>> The key misunderstanding on your part is the phrase “on your servers”. ISPs
>> acting as conduits do not, by definition (in the DMCA), store anything on
>> servers.
>
> Note that ISPs whose business is 100% "acting as conduits" are in the 
> minority.
>
> Hint:  The DMCA has the text about data stored on ISP servers because many 
> ISPs
> aren't mere conduits.  And this thread got started regarding a CDN, which is 
> very much
> all about storing data on servers.
>

Re: Multi-day GNSS Galileo outage -- Civilization survives

[Mel Beckman]

I suspect the Vatican was involved :)

 -mel 

> On Jul 19, 2019, at 12:20 AM, George Herbert  wrote:
> 
> Worthwhile noting however that they’re not reliably pushing notifications to 
> people on their notifications list.
> 
> Worthwhile checking fundamentals you do depend on with your own low level 
> monitoring.
> 
> -George
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Jul 18, 2019, at 10:30 PM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019, Sean Donelan wrote:
>>> 
>>> So much for the disaster scenarioes about a global clamity, planes falling 
>>> out the sky, the end of civil society because a global navigation satellite 
>>> system fails.  The European Galileo GNSS was down for days, and life went 
>>> on.
>> 
>> It wasn't even in full production, and I am not aware of much equipment that 
>> solely relies on Galileo.
>> 
>> A lot of devices today can use multiple GNSS and this is great, as this 
>> incident shows that one of them can go offline. Relying on only one of them 
>> is risky.
>> 
>> This outage and its lack of ramifications doesn't imply that if GPS went 
>> offline there woulnd't be consequences. Galileo is just a few years old, and 
>> wasn't even in production. If GPS would go offline, you'd see a lot 
>> different fallout. Lots of things rely on GPS solely.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: 44.192.0.0/10 sale

[Mel Beckman]

Bryan,

I appreciate you passing on information about technical background regarding 
the 44/10 sale, but before this discussion goes any further down a rathole, let 
me point out tour vitriol is off-topic and doesn’t belong on this list. I for 
one don’t appreciate you airing amateur radio laundry here. Please take it 
off-line. 

-mel via cell

> On Jul 19, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Bryan Fields  wrote:
> 
>> On 7/19/19 11:02 AM, Brian Kantor wrote:
>> Because questions have arisen here that are well answered by
>> a short series of postings from the 44net mailing list, at the
>> request of the author [Phil Karn] and others, I am reposting
>> them here.
>>- Brian
> 
> Brian,
> 
> You've done fuck all for ARDC for years, actively held back deployment of
> 44net for the better part of 20 years, and now you orchestrate this backroom
> deal.
> 
> You and Phil have proven how corrupt you are.  Do the honorable thing and
> resign.  Phil too.
> 
> For shame.
> -- 
> Bryan Fields
> 
> 727-409-1194 - Voice
> http://bryanfields.net

Re: 44/8

[Mel Beckman]

Please take this off-topic argument off the Nanog list.

-mel via cell

> On Jul 19, 2019, at 11:17 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 19 Jul 2019, Phil Karn wrote:
> 
>>> And one of the principal people in the network telescope project was KC, 
>>> who also weaseled herself onto the ARDC board without even holding an 
>>> amateur radio license.  Conflict of interest here, holy carp.
>> 
>> You are not in possession of all the facts.
>> 
>> KC (Kim Claffy) is KC6KCC.
> 
> https://www.fccbulletin.com/callsign/?q=KC6KCC
> 
> The grant date was 2018-02-21.
> 
> So both of the above statements can be true at the same time since I have no 
> idea when KC joined the ARDC board. When was that?
> 
> Also, reading: http://wiki.ampr.org/wiki/ARDC
> 
> "It solely manages and allocates Internet address space, subnets of network 
> 44 (AMPRNet), to interested Amateur Radio operators."
> 
> Seems ARDC does more than this nowadays.
> 
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamssonemail: swm...@swm.pp.se

Re: ISP Job

[Mel Beckman]

What are your credentials?

 -mel beckman

> On Sep 23, 2019, at 1:02 AM, David Ratkay  wrote:
> 
> I have been looking to work at an ISP for a long time now. I live in Northern 
> Indiana in the US and there seems to not be much opportunities to work for an 
> ISP in this region. Any recommendations? 

Re: ISP Job

[Mel Beckman]

What is it windows desktop helpdesk support? That’s the most common, but the 
least useful for ISPs. If you have help desk support troubleshooting network 
problems, that’s more useful.

Your Cisco skills will get you in an entry level position at most WISPs, and 
MPLS skills are a plus, as many larger WISPs rub MPLS in their core. Other 
technologies to acquire skill in are WiFi standards, radio configuration, 
spanning tree protocol, SNMP, and PPPoE.

Start calling WISPs to offer your services as an entry level tech. WISPs are 
the fastest growing service provider segment.

-mel via cell

On Sep 23, 2019, at 6:02 PM, David Ratkay 
mailto:djratka...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I have about over a year or so of IT helpdesk experience. I worked with some 
Cisco switches, basic configuration such as vlans, ssh, acl's. Installing OS's 
on Cisco switches. I have the CCNA R cert

On Mon, Sep 23, 2019, 4:01 AM David Ratkay 
mailto:djratka...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have been looking to work at an ISP for a long time now. I live in Northern 
Indiana in the US and there seems to not be much opportunities to work for an 
ISP in this region. Any recommendations?

Re: Optical training

[Mel Beckman]

FiberU (https://fiberu.org) has a lot of decent free training materials. Their 
emphasis is on physical installation, but they do cover DWDM, Bi-Di, and 
related physics in some of their videos. If you’re looking for DWDM design and 
provisioning, you’ll probably have to pay for vendor-specific courses.

Here’s the FiberU syllabus that covers optical fiber testing along with DWDM 
and OTDR.

https://fiberu.org/OSP/LP8.html

 -mel

On Oct 1, 2019, at 1:24 PM, James Chang  wrote:

Sorry... forgot to mention that I'm looking for recommendation of training 
courses in this particular area.

Thanks,
James

On Tue, Oct 1, 2019 at 4:21 PM James Chang 
mailto:traceroute...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi All,

Hopefully this is the right place to post this question.I'm a routing guy 
mainly working with ISIS/BGP for my company in our core space.  I have an 
opportunity to get involve with our L2 DWDM network.  We are a Cisco shop using 
NCS2K as DWDM nodes.  But before jump into learning the NCS specific stuff, I 
would like to take a vendor neutral training course in Optical fiber testing 
with OSA/OTDR, OTN, DWDM signaling, OSNR/dispersionetc.  I think this will 
help me understand how to build out a DWDM network from ground up.  I'm hoping 
someone I could get into designing network for my company.

Thanks in advance,
James

Re: Disney+ Streaming

[Mel Beckman]

I concur. This is silly off-topic. You don’t have to go home, but you can’t 
stay here, according to NANOG guidelines. 

-mel 

> On Nov 13, 2019, at 4:57 AM, Bryan Holloway  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 11/13/19 1:06 PM, Niels Bakker wrote:
>> * mikeboli...@gmail.com (Mike Bolitho) [Wed 13 Nov 2019, 12:05 CET]:
>>> This has gone well beyond out of scope of the NANOG list. Discussing who
>>> watches what kind of content has nothing to do with networking. Can you
>>> guys take the conversation elsewhere?
>> On the contrary.  This discussion informs eyeball networks' capacity 
>> planning requirements for the upcoming years.
>> It'd be nice to go from anecdata to data, though.
>> -- Niels.
> 
> 
> Indeed ... as an eyeball network, this is all very relevant.
> 
> Another aspect that hasn't been mentioned in this thread (I think), is that 
> besides there being a potential saturation of streaming services, there's 
> also the backroom dealings between content and content-providers.
> 
> Here's some data: Netflix just lost "Friends", one of its most popular 
> offerings (and probably more than a blip on my bandwidth graphs) to HBO Max. 
> This is but one example, but, as a whole, stuff like this is very important 
> for capacity-planning.
> 
> Not saying it's gonna happen, but if Disney "lost" the Star Wars franchise 
> to, say, Amazon, you better believe there are likely to be traffic shifts. 
> (Yes, I know they own it.)

Re: Question about normal ops - BGP Flaps nightly

[Mel Beckman]

No. There should be no reason to bounce the session. Do you have soft updates 
turn on?

-mel via cell

> On Nov 21, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Christopher Morrow  
> wrote:
> 
> Howdy!
> A question of interest to me, currently, is whether it's normal for
> providers to cause BGP flaps to their customers nightly... This seems,
> in my case, to be the provider PROBABLY updating prefix-filters on my
> session(s).
> 
> Particularly AS56554 is currently getting v4/v6 transit from 2
> providers, one of which we have 2 links toward. That provider appears
> to flap both of our ipv6 (only) bgp peers each night at about the same
> time each night. This smells like: "filter updates', but something
> that's different than the v4 filter update? (or perhaps they have no
> v4 filtering to update?)
> 
> In the end, should customers expect nightly (or on a regular cadence)
> to see their sessions bounce? It hasn't been my experience in other
> situations...
> 
> -chris