RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Actually, it's a choice. You just tell them you want to keep your POTS when you sign up for service. They can definitely bundle Fios TV POTS. The VOIP package might be cheaper. I suspect that's where most people wind up, not realizing the difference in service until there is a power outage. --Heather -Original Message- From: William Herrin [mailto:b...@herrin.us] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 5:18 PM To: Owen DeLong Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: On Aug 3, 2012, at 12:31 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. 20 years ago you didn't have a megabit to your home let alone many megabits. 20 years ago, POTS was much simpler than the converged networks we have today. There is something to be said for the simplicity of POTS. If you're that concerned about calling 911 for a heat stroke, why don't you maintain a POTS line? When Verizon installed FIOS in the neighborhood they removed the copper lines to each house. It was understood and accepted that if the household fiber adapters did not receive power the battery would fail in a few hours. That the upstream would fail, even for folks who took measures to continue to power the fiber adapter, was unexpected and very unfortunate. If they can run a copper pair back to a powerable location then it escapes me why they can't do the same with a single strand of fiber. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Even though we know it's technically possible, service providers aren't going to overprovision power backup unless there is a business reason to do so. Some state PUCs have minimum battery run times -- I'm sure service providers who provide telephone service are meeting that because their certificate depends on that. After that, it's just providing enough services to remain comparatively competitive. Frank -Original Message- From: Ralph E. Whitmore, III [mailto:ral...@interworld.net] Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 11:54 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? What I think most people are objecting to is that most of the issue with maintain service is not related to technical capabilities, but related to the cost of providing these support services impacting the profit margins of the large monopolistic carriers. Verizon with their FIOS offerings, at least in my area is CO based and all optical, so all I have to provide is power to my own FIOS terminal which is easy to do, floated on batteries (not the POS that VZ provided but a real battery bank) and I stay online. We have been through 10 outages at least 10 hours in duration and one 3 day outage all courtesy of SCE who can't figure out how to replace the 57 year old wires that keep breaking from corrosion here in So. Calif. As a subscriber, I paid for the copper Wire that VZ installed, I paid for the Copper that Edison installed, I pay to maintain both of these services on a 7x24x365 basis. And each and every month, SCE and VZ take a mandatory deduction out of my bill specifically to replace the copper every 50 years (the design life of the infrastructure). Edison squanders that money and just patches the infrastructure with no regard for the customers, and VZ replaces the copper with FIOS so they don't have to allow any competition from anyone else and demos the copper when they are done so no one else can use it. All of these companies fail to understand that they were granted a license and handed the keys to provide a public service and we expect them to perform that job rain or shine 7x24x365. Hurricanes (while not a problem where I am) are a known problem in many parts of the company and it is their job to maintain service despite the hurricanes. These fiber huts/RSU's were installed to minimize VZ's (insert your favorite carrier here) cost of maintenance for their network . This way, they can increase their profits by laying off more workers and hiring more subcontractors. So be it, that is their business model. What people/PUC/ Regulatory bodies fail to follow up on is that just because they are allowed to install Fiber Huts/RSU's the customers should expect the same level of service and redundancy that is provided by a brick and mortar CO built to the ATT/Bellcore standards for stability and reliability. I am all for the carriers pushing the edge closer to the customers, but it should not be allowed to occur at a substandard level. They certainly aren't offering a discount for substandard service received by some. My customers get 99.999% reliability from my infrastructure, I expect the carriers to do at least as well, obviously that doesn't happen. All my Roadside cabinets have a DC plant that is engineered to hold the facility for at least 18 hours based on the equipment in the box. All my facilities have an external Transfer switch and a generator plug. A single 5kw generator, with one cable and padlock, with one tank of fuel (generally propane or diesel)(about 5 gallons) will run the hut for 8-10 hours, fully recharge the DC plant inside buying you another 18 hours on battery (therefore 28 additional hours before fuel is needed) and to boot have electronic monitoring to tell me if there is another AC failure of the generator during that 8-10 hours. One contractor, god forbid we wouldn't do this with actual employees of the company, with a pickup truck and a small trailer should be able to support between 12-20 Fiber Huts /RSU's in a single shift. If your site is bigger than a 5KW site then you should have generator backup onsite in the first place. If I can do this Verizon/ATT/Centurylink should have no trouble supporting their facilities in a similar fashion. I am a little dinky company with 12 employees, but Verizon( your carrier name here) If you want to use Wisper Watt 25KW generators, more power to you, they will just pass the costs on to us anyways in the next rate hike. The argument about lack of fuel availability is total bunk as well as I can't believe that any carrier doesn't already have 1000's of gallons onsite already to support their CO's, trucks, ect. if you need more you can order a 5000gallon tank like everyone else in the real world does, you can probably have it delivered tomorrow afternoon if you place the order tomorrow morning before noon. Lack of power at an Fiber hut/RSU is negligence at best on a carriers part, not an unsolvable technical problem My
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: Even though we know it's technically possible, service providers aren't going to overprovision power backup unless there is a business reason to do so. Some state PUCs have minimum battery run times -- I'm sure service providers who provide telephone service are meeting that because their certificate depends on that. After that, it's just providing enough services to remain comparatively competitive. It's unfortunate that some of them intend to wait for the PUCs and SCCs to compel them to maintain service availability at the level they learned to do it at for POTS. And then complain nodoubt about how much it costs since they didn't architect their network to be friendly to power backup. Don't these guys ever want to get ahead of the curve? If they want to keep making the case for being allowed to operate an unregulated monopoly/duopoly information service, it seems like it would be unwise to provoke State Corporation Commission with service outages. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
My point is more along the line of if you're depending on a service which provides only best-effort on uptime (as Bill Herrin mentioned, some providers can barely manage 2 nines of 911 uptime) and to which you're connected by a single, fault-prone connection, and which provides no guarantee of service even if you CAN contact them, calling it critical is kind of a joke, and you'd probably get laughed at by a risk analyst. If you're serious about protecting health and home, you'd better have some other plan in place that doesn't have a ridiculous number of single points of failure. Pete Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: I've never met a dog properly trained in ACLS and I'm pretty sure that a gun isn't even useful for BLS. Owen On Aug 4, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Peter Kristolaitis alte...@alter3d.ca wrote: Considering that none of the services that can be dispatched by 911 are legally required to help you in most North American jurisdictions (i.e. if you call 911 and the police don't respond until they finish eating their box of donuts, they're not criminally or civilly liable), having working 911 services really doesn't guarantee you anything. Most security monitoring companies have contracts that are completely worthless and guarantee nothing as well. If you're depending on 911 for life safety and property protection, I'd recommend revising that plan to include a dog and/or gun. :-) - Pete Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. These are peoples' lives and families and homes. There is nothing - repeat, nothing - more important than that. It is absolutely a critical service. Nathan Eisenberg
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 8/5/12, Peter Kristolaitis alte...@alter3d.ca wrote: My point is more along the line of if you're depending on a service which provides only best-effort on uptime (as Bill Herrin mentioned, some providers can barely manage 2 nines of 911 uptime) and to which you're connected by a single, fault-prone connection, and which provides no guarantee of service even if you CAN contact them, calling it critical is kind of a joke, and you'd probably get laughed at by a risk analyst. If I've yet to hear of a successful lawsuit bringing a victim back to life. Criticality is defined based on the impact and importance of the service not working correctly, not on its actual lack of fault tolerance mechanisms. The lack of proper reliability, if/where that's the case, is a regulatory issue that should be addressed by citizens contacting their government, and entering complaints with their elected reps. you're serious about protecting health and home, you'd better have some other plan in place that doesn't have a ridiculous number of single points of failure. Plan away, there are still situations where assistance would be absolutely essential. Your example of add a Dog and Gun to the planmay help in case of Police not available; it won't help against multiple armed adversaries carrying drugged meat to seduce dogs, who just want to kill without regard. It won't help in case of no response to call for Fire department or Medical. Dogs and Guns are also dangerous implements, require skills to operate and a great deal of care and mainteinance, there are more people accidentally injured or killed by them, or discharging them illegally, or their guns getting stolen and turned against them, than successfully using them in a legal tactically appropriate way for self-defense. Pete -- -JH
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Agreed. My point was that the police have the least of all emergency services to do with protection of life and property and that a gun or a dog only helps you with the functions that they can perform. People depend on 911 for much more than just police and if you're trying to come up with an alternate plan, it's much more important to address the questions of emergency medical services and fire protection than the relatively lower risk of threats from an intruder. Owen On Aug 5, 2012, at 05:50 , Peter Kristolaitis alte...@alter3d.ca wrote: My point is more along the line of if you're depending on a service which provides only best-effort on uptime (as Bill Herrin mentioned, some providers can barely manage 2 nines of 911 uptime) and to which you're connected by a single, fault-prone connection, and which provides no guarantee of service even if you CAN contact them, calling it critical is kind of a joke, and you'd probably get laughed at by a risk analyst. If you're serious about protecting health and home, you'd better have some other plan in place that doesn't have a ridiculous number of single points of failure. Pete Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: I've never met a dog properly trained in ACLS and I'm pretty sure that a gun isn't even useful for BLS. Owen On Aug 4, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Peter Kristolaitis alte...@alter3d.ca wrote: Considering that none of the services that can be dispatched by 911 are legally required to help you in most North American jurisdictions (i.e. if you call 911 and the police don't respond until they finish eating their box of donuts, they're not criminally or civilly liable), having working 911 services really doesn't guarantee you anything. Most security monitoring companies have contracts that are completely worthless and guarantee nothing as well. If you're depending on 911 for life safety and property protection, I'd recommend revising that plan to include a dog and/or gun. :-) - Pete Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. These are peoples' lives and families and homes. There is nothing - repeat, nothing - more important than that. It is absolutely a critical service. Nathan Eisenberg
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
My apologies, I think we crossed wires here. This thread included a discussion of continual residential Internet access in an extended power outage. That's the topic I was responding to, not E911. Frank -Original Message- From: Nathan Eisenberg [mailto:nat...@atlasnetworks.us] Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 9:27 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. These are peoples' lives and families and homes. There is nothing - repeat, nothing - more important than that. It is absolutely a critical service. Nathan Eisenberg
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
I think the term critical is being used in different senses in this discussion. Are people's lives critical? Yes, but the regulations for wired and wireless infrastructure don't require service providers to expend any and all costs to maintain connectivity. And we don't have ambulances and fire trucks at every corner and hospitals in every subdivision. Despite the almost incalculable value of life, there are still limitations on all the services provided to residences. Would I like to have the same uptime at my home as we have in the CO? or data center? Sure, but collectively we aren't willing, nay, able, to pay that price. Frank -Original Message- From: William Herrin [mailto:b...@herrin.us] Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 11:15 PM To: Andy Koch Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? snip On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. Whether each individual's residence contains critical infrastructure is a decision best left up to that individual. By necessity that makes the upstream aggregation components critical infrastructure. No different than it was for POTS 20 years ago. The Internet isn't just a toy any more. It's the primary communications channel in to many folks homes and well on its way to becoming the primary channel period. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: Would I like to have the same uptime at my home as we have in the CO? or data center? Sure, but collectively we aren't willing, nay, able, to pay that price. We paid the price for 3-nines on the home comm service 20 years ago. Did customer expectations change? Or is the LEC just trying to pull a fast one since the tech isn't exactly the same? Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 8/5/12 9:19 PM, William Herrin wrote: On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:41 PM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: Would I like to have the same uptime at my home as we have in the CO? or data center? Sure, but collectively we aren't willing, nay, able, to pay that price. We paid the price for 3-nines on the home comm service 20 years ago. Did customer expectations change? Given that a growing number of them don't even have residential voice service that seems like a valid assumption. Or is the LEC just trying to pull a fast one since the tech isn't exactly the same? The customer with naked dsl or cable without voice is not buying telephony from the lec anyway. If all the members of the household have the same cellular provider I guess they share fate. Regards, Bill Herrin
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
personnel in a 24 hour period. They worked for 4 days and were then sent home as they were no longer needed. To the best of my recollection people were without service for weeks if not months. The safety wackos in the world will say well we don't want to tax our employees and more than 12 hours isn't safe. Ok, I will not argue the validity of their argument, personally I disagree with it, but this is an emergency response not a shareholders meeting, but sending the crews home weeks before all service is restored doesn't resonate well. IMHO Restoration was not about serving the people who were out of service, but rather spending at little as they could get away with without regard for the people who pay for the infrastructure and pay their bills. While we are at it, my uncle installed the RSU he is serviced from at his house before he retired from Bell Atlantic/VZ, they engineered only 4 hours of battery backup for their site near his house, the fiber hut/RSU is approx. 8'x8'x5' and it has only 4 -105AH batteries installed in it, there are three vacant shelves for more batteries and one totally vacant compartment left in the cabinet for battery expansion. Given the rural nature of his service RSU, the nearest stocking yard for VZ is better than an hour's drive from his RSU. Given the Union contract gives the workers 2 hours to show up at the yard from the time they are contacted ( which could take hours to do in the first place if his RSU is down) there is almost no way that you can callout a tech and make it to the site before the battery back is exhausted and Dominion Power is highly un-likely to arrive onsite in less than 12 hours from the time of call. So this site is doomed to go down from the start. A single house, my house, your house, despite what we think are not critical infrastructure to the carriers, but the fiber huts that service them certainly is and needs to be supported better than they are now. Back to the original topic, BGP works great over FIOS if you have a business account with static IP's and a Cooperative Colo. I have IPv4 and IPv6 running at my house and office (we microwave the Home's business FIOS to the office) through a GRE tunnel. It's the cheapest 35x35Mb connection around for about $200.00 with 32 static IP's around TWC wants about $2k for the same service. It took a little bit of fiddling to get the MTU right across the tunnel (ip tcp adjust-mss is your friend) I could upgrade the service for another $100.00 to 150Mb x 65Mb, but the wireless link won't support that without a large expenditure and for 12 people it's not needed. Boy that was a lot, glad I had time on a Sunday night to write this after fueling my generator. Ralph -Original Message- From: Frank Bulk [mailto:frnk...@iname.com] Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 7:41 PM To: 'William Herrin'; Andy Koch Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? I think the term critical is being used in different senses in this discussion. Are people's lives critical? Yes, but the regulations for wired and wireless infrastructure don't require service providers to expend any and all costs to maintain connectivity. And we don't have ambulances and fire trucks at every corner and hospitals in every subdivision. Despite the almost incalculable value of life, there are still limitations on all the services provided to residences. Would I like to have the same uptime at my home as we have in the CO? or data center? Sure, but collectively we aren't willing, nay, able, to pay that price. Frank -Original Message- From: William Herrin [mailto:b...@herrin.us] Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 11:15 PM To: Andy Koch Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? snip On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. Whether each individual's residence contains critical infrastructure is a decision best left up to that individual. By necessity that makes the upstream aggregation components critical infrastructure. No different than it was for POTS 20 years ago. The Internet isn't just a toy any more. It's the primary communications channel in to many folks homes and well on its way to becoming the primary channel period. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 11:52:53AM -1000, William Herrin wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: A good portable generator is more than $500, and if it's a wide-spread outage there's not enough portable generators to go around, and if there were, not enough people to set them and give them their fluids. Doesn't take a good generator to maintain a -48V battery string. Drop it off. Plug it in. Start it up. Task some folks on an 8 hour loop to keep the tanks topped off. Even battery-buffered overnight, solar PV works great if grid is down or even completely absent. If the DOT, not noted for its efficiency, can get the major traffic lights up and running on generators the next day, why can't Sprint, Cox and Verizon get their towers and fiber concentrators powered up? That's a condemnation worthy of the word: that your company performed worse in the storm recovery than the local department of transportation.
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Once upon a time, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com said: A good portable generator is more than $500, and if it's a wide-spread outage there's not enough portable generators to go around, and if there were, not enough people to set them and give them their fluids. And it doesn't pay to put a natural gas (or similar) generator at every node for those rare instances where the battery does not suffice. That's what Bellsouth did here (haven't seen any new fiber huts in my area since ATT took over to know if they're still doing it). Every fiber hut is on a larger concrete pad that has a second power hut with a natural gas line hooked up. Of course, last year when we had a week-long power outage due to tornados taking out over 200 high-voltage distribution towers, my DSL and phone went down after a while anyway, because mine runs to a fiber hut old enough to be an actual hut (looks like a little pump house) from before they set them up with the generators. I'm not sure how long it was up because _I_ didn't have a generator (and then I left town). As for portable generators: I'm in Huntsville, AL, which is not exactly a huge city, and I'm pretty sure there are well over a hundred fiber huts around here. Storing, maintaining, deploying, and supplying that many portable generators is not practical, especially when they'll be needed at a time when you probably need all hands in the field repairing the plant itself. Besides, where do you think you're going to get gasoline in a wide-spread extended power failure? Few gas stations have generators, and even if they do, they'll sell out of gas quickly. That distribution system also needs power. The diesel for our generator had to be trucked in from outside the affected area (Birmingham IIRC). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 4:41 AM, Eugen Leitl eu...@leitl.org wrote: On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 11:52:53AM -1000, William Herrin wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: A good portable generator is more than $500, and if it's a wide-spread outage there's not enough portable generators to go around, and if there were, not enough people to set them and give them their fluids. Doesn't take a good generator to maintain a -48V battery string. Drop it off. Plug it in. Start it up. Task some folks on an 8 hour loop to keep the tanks topped off. Even battery-buffered overnight, solar PV works great if grid is down or even completely absent. That's a clever idea but for the kind of equipment in question you'd need a dozen square yards of cells. That isn't available where most of these installations are. Though perhaps the utilities should have made an effort to site them where it could be. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 11:02 AM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Besides, where do you think you're going to get gasoline in a wide-spread extended power failure? Few gas stations have generators, and even if they do, they'll sell out of gas quickly. That distribution system also needs power. The diesel for our generator had to be trucked in from outside the affected area (Birmingham IIRC). I managed to get gasoline for my generator. I had to drive upwards of 5 miles and pass as many as 7 closed stations to get it. But it was available and if I'd planned better with respect to containers to carry it in I'd have had zero difficulty. Some stations did have generators. And some were in locations that didn't lose power in the first place. The kind of event which ends access to fuel tends to destroy the communications infrastructure anyway so that loss of power is not the main barrier to operations. Extended loss of power is a regular, high-probability threat. I think it reasonable to expect the local communications companies to be ready for it and capable of keeping the key infrastructure online. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 4 August 2012 04:07, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: As someone else posted, many FTTH installations are centralized as much as possible to avoid having non-passive equipment in the plant, allowing for the practicality of onsite generators. That's what we do. But for those who have powered nodes in the field (distributed/tiered BPON or GPON configurations and cable plants), it's not realistic to keep them all powered. Despite what the DOT may be able to do. If only they had some kind of copper cabling running from some kind of central location (like perhaps the same place the fiber runs to, I imagine the same buildings that the old POTS lines ran to) that went all the way out to the huts full of powered equipment (that would likely be next to the old POTS junction boxes) that as a result of their new fiber installs would have a few pairs unused, then they could possibly have hooked those up as backup power when grid power becomes unavailable for a large area (poor power distribution efficiency would probably stop you wanting to power it that way all the time). It's a shame that there isn't any such copper infrastructure owned by those same companies already in place, but perhaps they could have thrown an extra copper cable in to the middle of that fiber bundle at the same time they were running it at negligible additional cost. - Mike
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Once upon a time, William Herrin b...@herrin.us said: I managed to get gasoline for my generator. I had to drive upwards of 5 miles and pass as many as 7 closed stations to get it. But it was available and if I'd planned better with respect to containers to carry it in I'd have had zero difficulty. Some stations did have generators. And some were in locations that didn't lose power in the first place. Well, in North Alabama in April 2011, we had to drive a lot more than 5 miles (unless you left a 0 off the end). Across the Tennessee state line (a good bit north of it) they had power, but they quickly ran out of gas (and had a several hour wait in line to get what they had). I was headed to Atlanta, and in 100 miles I drove past just one open gas station (with very long lines) before I filled up in Georgia. This was an exceptional event; it was the first time ever Huntsville Utilities had lost all power. TVA shut down a large nuclear plant (Browns Ferry) not because of any problem at the plant (although they also lost off-site power because of a close tornado, which by regulation requires a shutdown) but because there was nowhere for the power to go. The kind of event which ends access to fuel tends to destroy the communications infrastructure anyway so that loss of power is not the main barrier to operations. It depends. Our problems were from tornados, which tend to cause very localized damage in a relatively narrow path (it can be 50+ miles long but not usually more than a half-mile to a mile wide). Even a massive outbreak didn't cause any damage at all to 90%+ of the population. We lost power because the distribution system was severly hit, but the long-haul fiber all stayed up. Most of the other problems were because of the power failure (some local fiber rings dropped, especially one CLEC's that puts their nodes in customer premises and were broken by customers' power failures). -- Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net Systems and Network Administrator - HiWAAY Internet Services I don't speak for anybody but myself - that's enough trouble.
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 8/4/12, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: long-haul fiber all stayed up. Most of the other problems were because of the power failure (some local fiber rings dropped, especially one CLEC's that puts their nodes in customer premises and were broken by customers' power failures). [snip] I would go as far as to say most electric utilities I know of specialize in safe efficient long-distance transmission for a mass consumption audience (massive number of users, very few users with specific high reliability requirements who can't accept a 5 day outage at least), and favor safety and efficiency over reliability, using many components that are not buried or heavily shielded, and are highly susceptible to weather events, trucks knocking poles over, lightning, tornados, solar flares, etc, and that their answer to outage prevention is to let it fail, or shut it down in case of damage, and then repair later. If a telco provider's answer to powering remote comms facilities is to just let the electric company bring in AC, to charge a battery which will last a short time, then disaster survivability was not the driving design goal for that selection. Possibly because their customers or their local government weren't demanding it, or weren't willing to pay enough for them to install suitably designed power distribution and backup. If you really care about building a reliable communications infrastructure, then you have at least two independent paths and sources for communications, and at least two independent paths and sources for power, to each major component of the system, so you provide your own power distribution, favoring reliability. That increases the price of the service, and if the consumer doesn't want it so badly that they'll pay significantly more, then it could be a waste, financially; most of the time, people won't notice extra fault tolerance measures versus a competitor's cheaper service that isn't so resilient in disasters. -- -JH
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:09 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote: Well, in North Alabama in April 2011, we had to drive a lot more than 5 miles (unless you left a 0 off the end). Across the Tennessee state line (a good bit north of it) they had power, but they quickly ran out of gas (and had a several hour wait in line to get what they had). I was headed to Atlanta, and in 100 miles I drove past just one open gas station (with very long lines) before I filled up in Georgia. 100 miles isn't a serious logistics problem with 500 gallons of fuel tank in the bed of a pickup truck. That buys you 8-12 hours for 100 fiber huts with $500 gasoline generators before you send the next crew for more. If it's the 2003 Northeast blackout or Hurricane Katrina then OK but short of that the LECs and CLECs and cable companies should be able keep the vast majority of their infrastructure online. Hell, local Verizon couldn't even keep the 911 center online. Both it and its backup collapsed. Got news for these folks: if you have cable on the poles spidering in to lots of homes and businesses you are a critical infrastructure provider and you need to act like it. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 8/4/12 8:44 AM, Mike Jones wrote: On 4 August 2012 04:07, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: As someone else posted, many FTTH installations are centralized as much as possible to avoid having non-passive equipment in the plant, allowing for the practicality of onsite generators. That's what we do. But for those who have powered nodes in the field (distributed/tiered BPON or GPON configurations and cable plants), it's not realistic to keep them all powered. Despite what the DOT may be able to do. If only they had some kind of copper cabling running from some kind of central location (like perhaps the same place the fiber runs to, I imagine the same buildings that the old POTS lines ran to) that went all the way out to the huts full of powered equipment (that would likely be next to the old POTS junction boxes) that as a result of their new fiber installs would have a few pairs unused, then they could possibly have hooked those up as backup power when grid power becomes unavailable for a large area (poor power distribution efficiency would probably stop you wanting to power it that way all the time). providing line voltage has a bit different current requirements than a remote ip dslam sitting in a hut. you're not powering something like: http://us.zyxel.com/Products/details.aspx?PC1IndexFlag=20040812100619CategoryGroupNo=109D87CE-A152-4245-BE66-D455B07FE7A6 over 5000' of 24awg twisted pair. It's a shame that there isn't any such copper infrastructure owned by those same companies already in place, but perhaps they could have thrown an extra copper cable in to the middle of that fiber bundle at the same time they were running it at negligible additional cost. - Mike
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. I can assure you that infrastructure that really *is* critical do have their own generators and receive priority attention from the service providers. Frank -Original Message- From: William Herrin [mailto:b...@herrin.us] Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 11:56 AM To: Chris Adams; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? snip Got news for these folks: if you have cable on the poles spidering in to lots of homes and businesses you are a critical infrastructure provider and you need to act like it. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004 -Original Message- From: William Herrin [mailto:b...@herrin.us] Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 10:15 AM To: Chris Adams; nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? snip Extended loss of power is a regular, high-probability threat. I think it reasonable to expect the local communications companies to be ready for it and capable of keeping the key infrastructure online. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. These are peoples' lives and families and homes. There is nothing - repeat, nothing - more important than that. It is absolutely a critical service. Nathan Eisenberg
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Considering that none of the services that can be dispatched by 911 are legally required to help you in most North American jurisdictions (i.e. if you call 911 and the police don't respond until they finish eating their box of donuts, they're not criminally or civilly liable), having working 911 services really doesn't guarantee you anything. Most security monitoring companies have contracts that are completely worthless and guarantee nothing as well. If you're depending on 911 for life safety and property protection, I'd recommend revising that plan to include a dog and/or gun. :-) - Pete Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. These are peoples' lives and families and homes. There is nothing - repeat, nothing - more important than that. It is absolutely a critical service. Nathan Eisenberg
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Andy Koch gawu...@gmail.com wrote: On Aug 4, 2012, at 11:56, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: 100 miles isn't a serious logistics problem with 500 gallons of fuel tank in the bed of a pickup truck. That buys you 8-12 hours for 100 fiber huts with $500 gasoline generators before you send the next crew for more. Your expectations are way off here. With a 100 mile drive, even if that is round trip mileage, you can expect that trip to exceed 5 hours not including waiting in line to fuel up. Then when you return, distribution can take well over 3 hours, meaning that some locations will not get refueled before they run out. Then one group is on the gas run, fetching 500 gallons to a staging location while another group is on genset runs, topping the tanks of with the fetched gas. Or hey, if you're prepared then you have a contract in place with an oil company to divert one of the 9,000 gallon tank trucks from the non-functional local gas stations to your local distribution site. Then base your genset fueling runs from there. Few thousand bucks ahead of time to set up a box at the edge of one of your parking lots that can connect to the tanker's standard hose and pump gas. Hell, local Verizon couldn't even keep the 911 center online. Both it and its backup collapsed. So, rather than focus on repairing 911, you want these technicians to drive for hours and distribute gasoline to keep your home data service running? The E911 facility was supposed to be five nines. You don't get five nines with a focus on repair, you get it with prevention. This year Verizon'll achieve two nines. That's shameful. Shameful! I don't expect five nines from my residential Internet service. But I think two nines on the last mile cable and three nines on the aggregation system is a reasonable expectation for a primary first-world suburban communications service. It wasn't achieved. Does the spider web of cables include power distribution? If not, why the exception? If so, why not ostracize them for failing to keep power to the critical infrastructure in your neighborhood? Dominion can't seem to keep my local substation powered. Not my house per se, but the substation serving 611 power customers. They've missed 3 nines for at least 6 of the last 10 years without a single tree over the lines between me and the substation. And that's the last I'm going to say about it here because this isn't a forum for discussing the power companies' operational failures. It is, however, a forum for discussing network providers' operational failures. On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 10:26 PM, Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. Whether each individual's residence contains critical infrastructure is a decision best left up to that individual. By necessity that makes the upstream aggregation components critical infrastructure. No different than it was for POTS 20 years ago. The Internet isn't just a toy any more. It's the primary communications channel in to many folks homes and well on its way to becoming the primary channel period. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
I've never met a dog properly trained in ACLS and I'm pretty sure that a gun isn't even useful for BLS. Owen On Aug 4, 2012, at 7:53 PM, Peter Kristolaitis alte...@alter3d.ca wrote: Considering that none of the services that can be dispatched by 911 are legally required to help you in most North American jurisdictions (i.e. if you call 911 and the police don't respond until they finish eating their box of donuts, they're not criminally or civilly liable), having working 911 services really doesn't guarantee you anything. Most security monitoring companies have contracts that are completely worthless and guarantee nothing as well. If you're depending on 911 for life safety and property protection, I'd recommend revising that plan to include a dog and/or gun. :-) - Pete Nathan Eisenberg nat...@atlasnetworks.us wrote: Residences aren't critical infrastructure, no matter how angry the owners get. 911 access isn't a critical service? Fire and security panels aren't critical services? If basic life safety and property protection aren't critical services, I'm not sure what is. These are peoples' lives and families and homes. There is nothing - repeat, nothing - more important than that. It is absolutely a critical service. Nathan Eisenberg
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Mike Jones m...@mikejones.in wrote: If only they had some kind of copper cabling running from some kind of central location [...] (poor power distribution efficiency would probably stop you wanting to power it that way all the time). I imagine the problem would be safety and regulation rather than efficiency. Send a few amps as a couple thousand vdc over a 14 awg pair and you'll have no trouble efficiently powering the fiber hut a few thousand meters away. But the telco's attachment on the pole is relatively low to the ground. Semis have been known to take out the phone cable exiting parking lots when it sags for some reason. Having a few thousand volts in that cable might make the regulators nervous. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
This is a fascinating thread! I have had multiple class C address blocks assigned to us for many years (since the 80's) I have 2 T1 connections and one of them is up for contract renewal. I have wanted to replace one of the expensive T1s for a long time. DSL and Cable are available here at reasonable prices (no FIOS yet) However, even after they tell me they will do it, no provider will route even a single /24 (/30) for me. Mostly it's Verizon and/or Time Warner. I would love to have another solution. All I really need is to maintain the IPs on my servers so they are public/world accessible. (Email/Web/FTP/telnet(!)) Perhaps I can route to a co-located server then a tunnel back to the server farm over a static IP DSL or Cable link??? I am stumped. Any ideas? Rich
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Richard Miller rmil...@millerad.com wrote: I am stumped. Any ideas? time to migrate to carriers that care about you and your business?
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 08/03/2012 10:31 AM, Richard Miller wrote: --snip-- Perhaps I can route to a co-located server then a tunnel back to the server farm over a static IP DSL or Cable link??? I am stumped. Any ideas? Rich That would indeed be a solution to your problem. Have a cheap colo somewhere. Have them advertise your /24's and route them to your server/router and tunnel/vpn the ips back to your location. It's actually pretty simple. Regards, Chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Hi, Yes the easier way to do it is have your subnet routed to someone that is willing to colo your router, or provide your with something like NHRP, and use a 87x on your brand new unnamed Cable/DSL provider to create a NHRP tunnel for it. We have many customers which required that kind of tunnel to bypass some belligerent TelCo. But if you're going to drop your T1 for Cable/DSL get 2 of them using different technology and from different provider (aka 1 Cable and 1 DSL =D). Have fun. - Alain Hebertaheb...@pubnix.net PubNIX Inc. 50 boul. St-Charles P.O. Box 26770 Beaconsfield, Quebec H9W 6G7 Tel: 514-990-5911 http://www.pubnix.netFax: 514-990-9443 On 08/03/12 10:31, Richard Miller wrote: This is a fascinating thread! I have had multiple class C address blocks assigned to us for many years (since the 80's) I have 2 T1 connections and one of them is up for contract renewal. I have wanted to replace one of the expensive T1s for a long time. DSL and Cable are available here at reasonable prices (no FIOS yet) However, even after they tell me they will do it, no provider will route even a single /24 (/30) for me. Mostly it's Verizon and/or Time Warner. I would love to have another solution. All I really need is to maintain the IPs on my servers so they are public/world accessible. (Email/Web/FTP/telnet(!)) Perhaps I can route to a co-located server then a tunnel back to the server farm over a static IP DSL or Cable link??? I am stumped. Any ideas? Rich
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Alain Hebert aheb...@pubnix.net wrote: Yes the easier way to do it is have your subnet routed to someone that is willing to colo your router, or provide your with something like NHRP, and use a 87x on your brand new unnamed Cable/DSL provider to create a NHRP tunnel for it. We have many customers which required that kind of tunnel to bypass some belligerent TelCo. But if you're going to drop your T1 for Cable/DSL get 2 of them using different technology and from different provider (aka 1 Cable and 1 DSL =D). I'm doing this. Works well most of the time. A couple months ago we had major storm related outages in the area that persisted a couple of days. Internet service on both lines dropped out after 12 hours. It seems the telcos and cable companies don't consider the commodity Internet part of their equipment to be something which needs electricity during an extended grid outage. Cox. Verizon. I'm looking at you. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 08/03/2012 11:44 AM, Richard Miller wrote: Chris, Been thinking about taking that route no pun intended. It just moves the main link off-site. We've had these T1s for so long the maintenance and ops have become second nature. Someone should be able to route over a DSL/Cable/whatever link. Especially if we had a simple static IP setup. the prices are nuts here or T1s. Back in the day I was paying 3000 per T1..now it's 500/mnth for 1.5 symmetrical. I can get 50/5 or 15/5 from various providers for around 100/mnth! Rich Truth be told you don't even need to pay for a static ip if your termination point supports dynamic clients (i.e. a vpn). It's usually easiest if you have a server as your gateway for the local network too, that'll permit some more granular allowances with the ips, forwarding, etc. OpenVPN is a pretty good daemon for the tunnel. The only thing to keep in mind with the dynamic ips is once in a blue moon (for my area at least) you'll pick up a new ip and have a brief period of packet loss as the vpn re-establishes. Regards, Chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Richard Miller rmil...@millerad.com wrote: I am stumped. Any ideas? time to migrate to carriers that care about you and your business? The tough part there is that Verizon is not required (as I understand it) to open access to the plant they've built out for FiOS, unlike their copper plant. That's one of the reasons they've been keen to push people away from DSL and onto FiOS. Short of pulling dark fiber (not cost-effective for hope use yet ;) ) from one of the providers that serves this area, there were no other viable options for getting T1/DSL speeds to the house :( I ended up having FiOS business service installed about two weeks ago, but it's definitely pricey. jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 8/3/12 8:56 AM, William Herrin wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Alain Hebert aheb...@pubnix.net wrote: Yes the easier way to do it is have your subnet routed to someone that is willing to colo your router, or provide your with something like NHRP, and use a 87x on your brand new unnamed Cable/DSL provider to create a NHRP tunnel for it. We have many customers which required that kind of tunnel to bypass some belligerent TelCo. But if you're going to drop your T1 for Cable/DSL get 2 of them using different technology and from different provider (aka 1 Cable and 1 DSL =D). I'm doing this. Works well most of the time. A couple months ago we had major storm related outages in the area that persisted a couple of days. Internet service on both lines dropped out after 12 hours. It seems the telcos and cable companies don't consider the commodity Internet part of their equipment to be something which needs electricity during an extended grid outage. Cox. Verizon. I'm looking at you. Most don't, and for the price being paid on commodity connections I feel indifferent about it. The central plant days are mostly gone; there's fiber huts everywhere and not enough trucks/manpower (in my area a lineman sits in his truck and reads a book while tethered to the power kiosk) to run them all if the outage is too widespread for too long. ~Seth
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Seth Mattinen se...@rollernet.us wrote: On 8/3/12 8:56 AM, William Herrin wrote: It seems the telcos and cable companies don't consider the commodity Internet part of their equipment to be something which needs electricity during an extended grid outage. Cox. Verizon. I'm looking at you. Most don't, and for the price being paid on commodity connections I feel indifferent about it. Back in the day they kept my land line phone on during extended power outages. And that was when they had to power the phone. Now all they have to do is power the equipment on their end of the line. My phone's out because hey, voip. My Sprint cell phone's out because the fools can't power their towers. It's 105 degrees out and I'm screwed if someone has a heat stroke because we can't even call 911. The central plant days are mostly gone; there's fiber huts everywhere and not enough trucks/manpower (in my area a lineman sits in his truck and reads a book while tethered to the power kiosk) to run them all if the outage is too widespread for too long. They put a quarter million dollars into the fiber hut. They can't put a $500 gasoline generator in a warehouse 50 miles away and go pick it up when there's an extended outage? I'll give Verizon a little credit. They restored service after about 12 hours of outage. Cox didn't restore service until 12 hours *after* my power came back on. Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. -Bill -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Aug 3, 2012, at 12:31 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Seth Mattinen se...@rollernet.us wrote: On 8/3/12 8:56 AM, William Herrin wrote: It seems the telcos and cable companies don't consider the commodity Internet part of their equipment to be something which needs electricity during an extended grid outage. Cox. Verizon. I'm looking at you. Most don't, and for the price being paid on commodity connections I feel indifferent about it. Back in the day they kept my land line phone on during extended power outages. And that was when they had to power the phone. Now all they have to do is power the equipment on their end of the line. My phone's out because hey, voip. My Sprint cell phone's out because the fools can't power their towers. It's 105 degrees out and I'm screwed if someone has a heat stroke because we can't even call 911. 48vDC battery to power your phone up to 3 ringer equivalences was a pretty light load overall, compared to PON aggregators for all those neighborhoods. Further, as noted above the PON equipment is much more widely distributed than powering your phone. Powering your phone was straight DC down the same copper wire as your service. Powering the PON aggregators, well, unless you've got some magic new technology for powering them via fiber is a bit more involved and quite a bit more amperage per conductor than POTS. The central plant days are mostly gone; there's fiber huts everywhere and not enough trucks/manpower (in my area a lineman sits in his truck and reads a book while tethered to the power kiosk) to run them all if the outage is too widespread for too long. They put a quarter million dollars into the fiber hut. They can't put a $500 gasoline generator in a warehouse 50 miles away and go pick it up when there's an extended outage? That's a lot of generators and a lot of people to go pull them out and make sure they don't walk off during said extended outage. I'll give Verizon a little credit. They restored service after about 12 hours of outage. Cox didn't restore service until 12 hours *after* my power came back on. Seems pretty reasonable to me given the scale of the outage. Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. 20 years ago you didn't have a megabit to your home let alone many megabits. 20 years ago, POTS was much simpler than the converged networks we have today. There is something to be said for the simplicity of POTS. If you're that concerned about calling 911 for a heat stroke, why don't you maintain a POTS line? Owen
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: On Aug 3, 2012, at 12:31 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. 20 years ago you didn't have a megabit to your home let alone many megabits. 20 years ago, POTS was much simpler than the converged networks we have today. There is something to be said for the simplicity of POTS. If you're that concerned about calling 911 for a heat stroke, why don't you maintain a POTS line? When Verizon installed FIOS in the neighborhood they removed the copper lines to each house. It was understood and accepted that if the household fiber adapters did not receive power the battery would fail in a few hours. That the upstream would fail, even for folks who took measures to continue to power the fiber adapter, was unexpected and very unfortunate. If they can run a copper pair back to a powerable location then it escapes me why they can't do the same with a single strand of fiber. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
A good portable generator is more than $500, and if it's a wide-spread outage there's not enough portable generators to go around, and if there were, not enough people to set them and give them their fluids. And it doesn't pay to put a natural gas (or similar) generator at every node for those rare instances where the battery does not suffice. Frank -Original Message- From: William Herrin [mailto:b...@herrin.us] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 2:31 PM To: Seth Mattinen Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Seth Mattinen se...@rollernet.us wrote: snip The central plant days are mostly gone; there's fiber huts everywhere and not enough trucks/manpower (in my area a lineman sits in his truck and reads a book while tethered to the power kiosk) to run them all if the outage is too widespread for too long. They put a quarter million dollars into the fiber hut. They can't put a $500 gasoline generator in a warehouse 50 miles away and go pick it up when there's an extended outage? I'll give Verizon a little credit. They restored service after about 12 hours of outage. Cox didn't restore service until 12 hours *after* my power came back on. Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. -Bill -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:17 PM, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: On Aug 3, 2012, at 12:31 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. 20 years ago you didn't have a megabit to your home let alone many megabits. 20 years ago, POTS was much simpler than the converged networks we have today. There is something to be said for the simplicity of POTS. If you're that concerned about calling 911 for a heat stroke, why don't you maintain a POTS line? When Verizon installed FIOS in the neighborhood they removed the copper lines to each house. It was understood and accepted that if the ACTUALLY... no. they are NOT supposed to do this, in fact they said to congress that they were NOT removing copper, not clipping it outside the prem (despite what I've seen with my own eyes...). I think it's actually a violation for them to clip the copper, and to not support it, since it was put in with public funds... but ianal and all that patrick stuff. household fiber adapters did not receive power the battery would fail in a few hours. That the upstream would fail, even for folks who took measures to continue to power the fiber adapter, was unexpected and very unfortunate. If they can run a copper pair back to a powerable location then it escapes me why they can't do the same with a single strand of fiber. they do not want to be beholden to the PUC if they can avoid it... Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: A good portable generator is more than $500, and if it's a wide-spread outage there's not enough portable generators to go around, and if there were, not enough people to set them and give them their fluids. Doesn't take a good generator to maintain a -48V battery string. Drop it off. Plug it in. Start it up. Task some folks on an 8 hour loop to keep the tanks topped off. If the DOT, not noted for its efficiency, can get the major traffic lights up and running on generators the next day, why can't Sprint, Cox and Verizon get their towers and fiber concentrators powered up? That's a condemnation worthy of the word: that your company performed worse in the storm recovery than the local department of transportation. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
-Original Message- From: Frank Bulk [mailto:frnk...@iname.com] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 5:27 PM To: 'William Herrin' Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? A good portable generator is more than $500, and if it's a wide-spread outage there's not enough portable generators to go around, and if there were, not enough people to set them and give them their fluids. And it doesn't pay to put a natural gas (or similar) generator at every node for those rare instances where the battery does not suffice. Frank -Original Message- From: William Herrin [mailto:b...@herrin.us] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 2:31 PM To: Seth Mattinen Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Seth Mattinen se...@rollernet.us wrote: snip The central plant days are mostly gone; there's fiber huts everywhere and not enough trucks/manpower (in my area a lineman sits in his truck and reads a book while tethered to the power kiosk) to run them all if the outage is too widespread for too long. They put a quarter million dollars into the fiber hut. They can't put a $500 gasoline generator in a warehouse 50 miles away and go pick it up when there's an extended outage? I'll give Verizon a little credit. They restored service after about 12 hours of outage. Cox didn't restore service until 12 hours *after* my power came back on. Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. -Bill -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004 One would think the head end of the fiber would have batteries and a generator. I have TDS fiber at home and I believe it goes all the way back to the CO with no active items between. I do have UPS's and a genset to keep the ONT and servers running. Here in Fairpoint (former Verizon) land, most of the SLC huts I've seen, have either a genset or a plug for a mobile generator on the side of the bldg. The generators in the service vehicles can plug into these. The cable (HFC) infrastructure, on the other hand, has pole mounted power supplies that apparently (to me) go dead within an hour of a power failure. No way to back them up easily that I can see. Running BGP and hosting over a residential service such as cable or DSL, has it's limitations as I have learned. I doubt your LEC has an SLA for DSL service. I would look at hosting somewhere closer to your eyeball networks and let them worry about power, cooling and network availability. -Keith
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Aug 3, 2012, at 14:17 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: On Aug 3, 2012, at 12:31 , William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: Could be worse. I could have Pepco instead of Dominion. But it could be better. And 20 years ago the reliability was. 20 years ago you didn't have a megabit to your home let alone many megabits. 20 years ago, POTS was much simpler than the converged networks we have today. There is something to be said for the simplicity of POTS. If you're that concerned about calling 911 for a heat stroke, why don't you maintain a POTS line? When Verizon installed FIOS in the neighborhood they removed the copper lines to each house. It was understood and accepted that if the household fiber adapters did not receive power the battery would fail in a few hours. That the upstream would fail, even for folks who took measures to continue to power the fiber adapter, was unexpected and very unfortunate. If they can run a copper pair back to a powerable location then it escapes me why they can't do the same with a single strand of fiber. Sounds like your beef should be with your local regulators that allowed them to remove the copper plant without providing adequate assurance of comparable service from the replacement. Owen Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 01:01:35PM -0700, Owen DeLong wrote: [snip] If you're that concerned about calling 911 for a heat stroke, why don't you maintain a POTS line? Choices are great but carry responsibility and result in consequences. Some folks don't like to hear that, or just can't be bothered to read the * not lifeline or E911 service on a product description. Joe had no problem keeping a POTS line when getting FiOS installed Provo -- RSUC / GweepNet / Spunk / FnB / Usenix / SAGE / NewNOG
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
As someone else posted, many FTTH installations are centralized as much as possible to avoid having non-passive equipment in the plant, allowing for the practicality of onsite generators. That's what we do. But for those who have powered nodes in the field (distributed/tiered BPON or GPON configurations and cable plants), it's not realistic to keep them all powered. Despite what the DOT may be able to do. Frank -Original Message- From: wher...@gmail.com [mailto:wher...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of William Herrin Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 4:53 PM To: frnk...@iname.com Cc: nanog@nanog.org; Seth Mattinen Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: A good portable generator is more than $500, and if it's a wide-spread outage there's not enough portable generators to go around, and if there were, not enough people to set them and give them their fluids. Doesn't take a good generator to maintain a -48V battery string. Drop it off. Plug it in. Start it up. Task some folks on an 8 hour loop to keep the tanks topped off. If the DOT, not noted for its efficiency, can get the major traffic lights up and running on generators the next day, why can't Sprint, Cox and Verizon get their towers and fiber concentrators powered up? That's a condemnation worthy of the word: that your company performed worse in the storm recovery than the local department of transportation. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
We have the same problem in our FTTH access network (due to L2 isolation CPE can't directly ARP those in the same subnet), hence the vendor's move towards MAC force forwarding (MACFF). Frank -Original Message- From: Ricky Beam [mailto:jfb...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:18 PM To: William Herrin Cc: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 00:19:16 -0400, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: Nope. I have FiOS and the 5 IPs. They are 5 IPs, in sequence, at a completely arbitrary location in a /24 subnet. ... Time Warner (TWTC, not TWC) does the same thing... we have 8 addresses from them... 131 - 138; it's a /24 and we get to use those 8 addresses. [Yes, that causes problems trying to access anything else in that /24] I have no clue what's on the other end of that, and really don't care. (it's more or less bridged ethernet over a T1, that's also carrying voice.) smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Is that is needed, what is wrong with that ? Isn't MPLS a form of encapsulation ? Don't the enterprise folks run routing protocols on it ? With carriers today it is very common to deliver L2 connectivity over L3 networks. One does not have to like it...and just because someone else (upstream) does it for one, it does not mean it is wrong..just the nature of networks and growth, solving problems with the available set of tools... Faisal On Mar 14, 2012, at 12:40 AM, chris tknch...@gmail.com wrote: next lets encapsulate bgp over http next so we can run bgp at wifi hotspots :) On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: One possible avenue is put a router/computer in a colo and build a GRE tunnel over your FiOS connection to the data center, and then peer with folk there. Frank -Original Message- From: Justin M. Streiner [mailto:strei...@cluebyfour.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:27 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? All: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
in the DSL world, when we were providing service using Bridge PVC's, it was easier to allocate (as many needed) /32 to a customer CPE, than to route a subnet. This changed when the ATT/BellSouth infrastructure changed from being able to get ATM PVC's to PPPoE only network. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom On 3/13/2012 11:57 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Owen DeLongo...@delong.com wrote: C) 5 ips STATICALLY ROUTED AS /32's!! (WTF??) for 25$ above the option-B above/month. And people wonder why Verizon is the first to whine about routing table growth from deaggregation? ;-) eh, these end up (I think) aggregated on the edge router, so you get 5 /32's from a /23 (or the like) routed to the edge layer3 device. not as bloaty for the rest of their network as it at first seems. In all seriousness, though, I don't think they are routed as /32s. I think that's one for the Verizon CPE, 5 for your devices all routed as a single /29. owen, seen the config on a live router, yes they are routed as /32's to the VC you are connected to. I probably have the config for my old link in IM/email somewhere. apparently their automation either doesn't understand CIDR, or it was 'too expensive' to make the automation do CIDR once they started to offer extra ips to the business customers. -chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
- Original Message - From: Faisal Imtiaz fai...@snappydsl.net Is that is needed, what is wrong with that ? Well, we just had FiOS Business 150/65 dropped this week, and my /27 isn't even a /27; we're sharing a /24 with, presumably, a bunch of other customers. Not sure how BGP would handle that... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
I am not familiar with VZ's FIOS network... however I suspect that if they are using a Redback at the Headend, it would allow you to have a 'bridge' network with secure arp settings. (it's a feature that we have seen on Redback's...) Allows you to have a 'flat network' for all your subs, and there is a mechanism built in to allow for assign static ip's and also not allowing for someone to 'fake' / 'steal' someone else assigned IP's. This is nice, because one can be very efficient in their use of IPv4 addresses This is why I had said earlier that some of these networks are built with infrastructure that is not designed / meant to run advance routing protocols for an End User customers... too much overhead in running bgp sessions to hand off a single IP or even a /29 Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom On 3/14/2012 9:13 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote: - Original Message - From: Faisal Imtiazfai...@snappydsl.net Is that is needed, what is wrong with that ? Well, we just had FiOS Business 150/65 dropped this week, and my /27 isn't even a /27; we're sharing a /24 with, presumably, a bunch of other customers. Not sure how BGP would handle that... Cheers, -- jra
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Yes, Dane is not only very smart but also a very sharp and savvy business operator.. But I am also sure they are not doing this as a 'no charge' offering for a 'resi' circuit. Most competitive ISP's (such as Sonic and ourselves) a very flexible to customer's needs and are willing to support custom configurations but .. it has to make business sense...and the underlying infrastructure be able to support that configuration. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 3/14/2012 2:41 PM, Mehmet Akcin wrote: As far as I know only ISP that will let you do BGP with them on DSL is Sonic and their Fusion service is awesome but very limited to bay area. they rock though. mehmet On Mar 14, 2012, at 6:36 AM, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: I am not familiar with VZ's FIOS network... however I suspect that if they are using a Redback at the Headend, it would allow you to have a 'bridge' network with secure arp settings. (it's a feature that we have seen on Redback's...) Allows you to have a 'flat network' for all your subs, and there is a mechanism built in to allow for assign static ip's and also not allowing for someone to 'fake' / 'steal' someone else assigned IP's. This is nice, because one can be very efficient in their use of IPv4 addresses This is why I had said earlier that some of these networks are built with infrastructure that is not designed / meant to run advance routing protocols for an End User customers... too much overhead in running bgp sessions to hand off a single IP or even a /29 Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom On 3/14/2012 9:13 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote: - Original Message - From: Faisal Imtiazfai...@snappydsl.net Is that is needed, what is wrong with that ? Well, we just had FiOS Business 150/65 dropped this week, and my /27 isn't even a /27; we're sharing a /24 with, presumably, a bunch of other customers. Not sure how BGP would handle that... Cheers, -- jra
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 00:19:16 -0400, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: Nope. I have FiOS and the 5 IPs. They are 5 IPs, in sequence, at a completely arbitrary location in a /24 subnet. ... Time Warner (TWTC, not TWC) does the same thing... we have 8 addresses from them... 131 - 138; it's a /24 and we get to use those 8 addresses. [Yes, that causes problems trying to access anything else in that /24] I have no clue what's on the other end of that, and really don't care. (it's more or less bridged ethernet over a T1, that's also carrying voice.)
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Most competitive ISP's (such as Sonic and ourselves) a very flexible to customer's needs and are willing to support custom configurations but .. it has to make business sense...and the underlying infrastructure be able to support that configuration. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, or implying otherwise here. The point (and this goes back to my original post) was that VZ is missing out on revenue (and customer service, but let's not get ahead of ourselves...) opportunities by not offering such a thing as an add-on for their business- class FiOS services. If they brand it and bill at as a business-class service, then allowing someone to multihome using FiOS and something else does not seem like such an unreasonable request. As others have mentioned, if 19262 would toss in a few route-reflectors and let their customers EBGP-multihop to them, that would be a step in the right direction. In the scenario I'm working on at the moment, default, or default+customer routes would be perfectly fine. I neither want nor need a full view for this application. jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: The point (and this goes back to my original post) was that VZ is missing out on revenue (and customer service, but let's not get ahead of ourselves...) opportunities by not offering such a thing as an add-on for their business- class FiOS services. If they brand it and bill at as a business-class service, then allowing someone to multihome using FiOS and something else does not seem like such an unreasonable request. Well... they brand it as a SOHO service and AFAICT they refuse to install business fios anywhere zoned commercial. If they would actually connect it to a commercial facility, there'd be no shortage of third parties willing to do a fios line pair plus a tunnel and then drive whatever data over it that you wanted. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
In defense of the tier 1's it's not as easy as it looks to run BGP with the lower end business customers. On the technical side the edge boxes and links to them would be as overloaded with routes and peers and all of the other PE boxes in an ISP network. Not to mention the changes in routing policies and addressing schemes and the general operation of the service. This obviously isn't the case for every ISP, but I can understand why it's not popular.
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 3/14/2012 3:32 PM, Justin M. Streiner wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2012, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Most competitive ISP's (such as Sonic and ourselves) a very flexible to customer's needs and are willing to support custom configurations but .. it has to make business sense...and the underlying infrastructure be able to support that configuration. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you, or implying otherwise here. That is understood.. The point (and this goes back to my original post) was that VZ is missing out on revenue (and customer service, but let's not get ahead of ourselves...) Our concept of 'revenue' and large provider's concept of 'revenue' is very different opportunities by not offering such a thing as an add-on for their business- class FiOS services. It may sound simple to you and I, but the bigger challenge is on the support side how to deal with a more complex issue, and how to justify having more expensive support engineers ... etc.. If they brand it and bill at as a business-class service, then allowing someone to multihome using FiOS and something else does not seem like such an unreasonable request. On the surface this does not sound unreasonable, until you take into consideration that Support issues now would requires someone (or more like a team of folks) who is running cost is about $100 to $250 / hr (engineers, support structure, etc etc etc) .. for a service which is approx in the same $ figure for MRR... As others have mentioned, if 19262 would toss in a few route-reflectors and let their customers EBGP-multihop to them, that would be a step in the right direction. In the scenario I'm working on at the moment, default, or default+customer routes would be perfectly fine. I neither want nor need a full view for this application. while this is reasonable, we all have to keep in mind, that you can I can 'toss' in route-reflectors for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars each... Folks like VZ and ATT pay top dollars for top capacity equipment to handle stuff.. so you are talking about a few 'route-reflectors' for $50k or $150k each ? (Remember these are the folks who are paying full prices on the Cisco / Juniper boxes.) if you ever looked at the Cisco Top of the line router.. ( I don't remember what it called, but do remember the starting price for a base config is $250K, going up to $750k... was designed to meet the demands of larger network operators such as VZ / ATT etc...) As for the Cable Companies, most of them out-source network management / upgrade and upkeep to folks like Scientific Atlanta (a division of Cisco).. that is why when you call in for network support issues, you get someone who is not technically proficient with all aspects of networking... because they don't have them In the scenario I'm working on at the moment, default, or default+customer routes would be perfectly fine. I neither want nor need a full view for this application. There are existing solutions which are very easy to implement, which will allow you to do this, without having to deal too much with the underlying carrier so my question becomes if you need this, and you can solve this easily from your side... why do you want a behemoth to change and deliver ? (Even if they did you are not going to be happy with how they are performing ...). jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
- Original Message - From: William Herrin b...@herrin.us Well... they brand it as a SOHO service and AFAICT they refuse to install business fios anywhere zoned commercial. I have Business FiOS in 2 rented commercial properties; business office space. Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink j...@baylink.com Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth Associates http://baylink.pitas.com 2000 Land Rover DII St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Wed, 14 Mar 2012, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: while this is reasonable, we all have to keep in mind, that you can I can 'toss' in route-reflectors for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars each... Folks like VZ and ATT pay top dollars for top capacity equipment to handle stuff.. so you are talking about a few 'route-reflectors' for $50k or $150k each ? (Remember these are the folks who are paying full prices on the Cisco / Juniper boxes.) I doubt they are paying list price for their gear. If they are, I'd like to find out who from $carrier pulled the trigger on that deal, so I can talk to them about buying some beachfront property in Kansas ;) Still, point taken, and I didn't mean to suggest that any provider should just throw routers on their network on a whim. I've driven big networks for long enough to know that's not such a good idea. if you ever looked at the Cisco Top of the line router.. ( I don't remember what it called, but do remember the starting price for a base config is $250K, going up to $750k... was designed to meet the demands of larger network operators such as VZ / ATT etc...) I have a quote for a pair of them sitting on my desk - not for the customer in question. There are existing solutions which are very easy to implement, which will allow you to do this, without having to deal too much with the underlying carrier I have yet to see such a solution that doesn't: 1. require waiting for DNS records to be updated, at which point you're at the mercy of the providers in question and whatever the TTL is on the DNS records. 2. turn 1 single point of failure into 1 single points of failure. 3. require manual intervention (me getting called at 3 AM) to fix (see item 1). so my question becomes if you need this, and you can solve this easily from your side... why do you want a behemoth to change and deliver ? (Even if they did you are not going to be happy with how they are performing It was more of a point of wishful thinking and inquiry. I completely understand and accept that said behemoth is unlikely to change their product portfolio based on a thread on NANOG :) jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Faisal Imtiaz fai...@snappydsl.net writes: I am not familiar with VZ's FIOS network... however I suspect that if they are using a Redback at the Headend, it would allow you to have a 'bridge' network with secure arp settings. (it's a feature that we have seen on Redback's...) AFAIK Verizon does not use Redback/Ericsson stuff for FIOS and never has. A cursory survey of two (older, BPON, Tellabs) builds found ethernet OUI 00:90:1a, i.e. Juniper ERX. -r
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Robert E. Seastrom r...@seastrom.com wrote: Faisal Imtiaz fai...@snappydsl.net writes: I am not familiar with VZ's FIOS network... however I suspect that if they are using a Redback at the Headend, it would allow you to have a 'bridge' network with secure arp settings. (it's a feature that we have seen on Redback's...) AFAIK Verizon does not use Redback/Ericsson stuff for FIOS and never has. A cursory survey of two (older, BPON, Tellabs) builds found ethernet OUI 00:90:1a, i.e. Juniper ERX. yes, all edge boxes for FIOS are ERX... better support for CALEA there was one of the major drivers.
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Christopher Morrow morrowc.li...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Robert E. Seastrom r...@seastrom.com wrote: Faisal Imtiaz fai...@snappydsl.net writes: I am not familiar with VZ's FIOS network... however I suspect that if they are using a Redback at the Headend, it would allow you to have a 'bridge' network with secure arp settings. (it's a feature that we have seen on Redback's...) AFAIK Verizon does not use Redback/Ericsson stuff for FIOS and never has. A cursory survey of two (older, BPON, Tellabs) builds found ethernet OUI 00:90:1a, i.e. Juniper ERX. yes, all edge boxes for FIOS are ERX... better support for CALEA there was one of the major drivers. So it was _one_ of the drivers, but was it a more major driver than for the love of God, not Redback!? :) -r
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Robert E. Seastrom r...@seastrom.com wrote: So it was _one_ of the drivers, but was it a more major driver than for the love of God, not Redback!? :) I think there were some significant issues with the redback of the time, but ... near as I recall a pile-o-cash was put forth on both 19262 and 701 to do 'upgrades for CALEA' (at least on 701 those upgrades drove other features as well). In 701-land that ended up as 'lots more E3+ linecards!', in 19262 land that ended up being: ERX for everyone! (again, there could have been other drivers, but one major one was indeed 'calea monster!' - one wonders if they've ever even had a calea request to date...) -chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On 3/14/2012 9:00 PM, Robert E. Seastrom wrote: Christopher Morrowmorrowc.li...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Robert E. Seastromr...@seastrom.com wrote: Faisal Imtiazfai...@snappydsl.net writes: I am not familiar with VZ's FIOS network... however I suspect that if they are using a Redback at the Headend, it would allow you to have a 'bridge' network with secure arp settings. (it's a feature that we have seen on Redback's...) AFAIK Verizon does not use Redback/Ericsson stuff for FIOS and never has. A cursory survey of two (older, BPON, Tellabs) builds found ethernet OUI 00:90:1a, i.e. Juniper ERX. yes, all edge boxes for FIOS are ERX... better support for CALEA there was one of the major drivers. So it was _one_ of the drivers, but was it a more major driver than for the love of God, not Redback!? :) the last I knew, Verizon was an Alcatel house for switching and Alcatel managed to get tcp/ip into their switching gear. so I'm left to wonder. --C
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
I will just say no on all parts of this current part of the conversation and leave it at that. - j Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com wrote: On 3/14/2012 9:00 PM, Robert E. Seastrom wrote: Christopher Morrowmorrowc.li...@gmail.com writes: On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 8:14 PM, Robert E. Seastromr...@seastrom.com wrote: Faisal Imtiazfai...@snappydsl.net writes: I am not familiar with VZ's FIOS network... however I suspect that if they are using a Redback at the Headend, it would allow you to have a 'bridge' network with secure arp settings. (it's a feature that we have seen on Redback's...) AFAIK Verizon does not use Redback/Ericsson stuff for FIOS and never has. A cursory survey of two (older, BPON, Tellabs) builds found ethernet OUI 00:90:1a, i.e. Juniper ERX. yes, all edge boxes for FIOS are ERX... better support for CALEA there was one of the major drivers. So it was _one_ of the drivers, but was it a more major driver than for the love of God, not Redback!? :) the last I knew, Verizon was an Alcatel house for switching and Alcatel managed to get tcp/ip into their switching gear. so I'm left to wonder. --C
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? No. If you want to do BGP with Verizon, you have to buy a T1 at 10 times the cost and 1/10th of the speed. Though I'd love to discover I'm mistaken about that. :) Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Haha true that. How else would.they.push their atm and.Ethernet products. chris On Mar 13, 2012 7:04 PM, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? No. If you want to do BGP with Verizon, you have to buy a T1 at 10 times the cost and 1/10th of the speed. Though I'd love to discover I'm mistaken about that. :) Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:09 PM, chris tknch...@gmail.com wrote: On Mar 13, 2012 7:04 PM, William Herrin b...@herrin.us wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. No. If you want to do BGP with Verizon, you have to buy a T1 at 10 times the cost and 1/10th of the speed. Haha true that. How else would.they.push their atm and.Ethernet products. A cost I could live with. It's the fact that they won't sell me BGP service in the FiOS product line *at all* that makes me pine for the days of FCC mandated unbundling. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, William Herrin wrote: A cost I could live with. It's the fact that they won't sell me BGP service in the FiOS product line *at all* that makes me pine for the days of FCC mandated unbundling. Having the same problem with Comcast, even on there business Cable service they wont do BGP with me. -Nathan Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Comcast same deal ethernet only chris On Mar 13, 2012 7:42 PM, Nathan Stratton nat...@robotics.net wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, William Herrin wrote: A cost I could live with. It's the fact that they won't sell me BGP service in the FiOS product line *at all* that makes me pine for the days of FCC mandated unbundling. Having the same problem with Comcast, even on there business Cable service they wont do BGP with me. -Nathan Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, chris wrote: Comcast same deal ethernet only Yep, I got a quote for that, 7K a month yet I can get 100 meg on a gig circuit for $400 bucks from them in a datacenter. Oh, and the 7K is NOT to cover build out, did I forget to mention that node for my area is in MY backyard??? -Nathan
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: All: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? So techsupport folks aside.. the product they sell is: A) DHCP only, single address, dynamic B) Single Static address (uplift of 25$/month I believe?) C) 5 ips STATICALLY ROUTED AS /32's!! (WTF??) for 25$ above the option-B above/month. You can't bring your own space You can't do BGP You can get more than 5 ips (in 5 ip chunks I believe) for 25$/month per chunk... ip address rental, welcome to 1999! Also, I know that on 701 the rate of BGP to non-BGP customers was increasing and was at ~30% or so as of ~2007... You'd think that 19262 would see that, see the business opportunity and offer it? Though, I suppose they DO see the business opportunity: You want bgp? you want to bring your own ips? you want more than a DHCP address? Pay up, a lot. weee! fun times! At some point there was fairly serious talk of moving the FIOS product into the last-mile offering for 701 customers as well, guess that didn't happen? :( Seems, to me at least, like the PON technology would be a win/win for large ISP customers... easy upgrade paths (dial-on-demand-bandwidth almost?) and simple CPE deployments: Ethernet? sure it's available! -chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
So I have to ask you the big question... Why do you want to do BGP with Comcast or Verizon ? (Over FIOS or Cable ?) Is the intent to Peer with their network ? (which they will rightfully only allow on bigger fatter connections).. or Are you trying to delivery your IP's to a End Customer behind that FIOS / Cable Connection ? ... (there a ways to accomplish this without needing their cooperation..) Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 3/13/2012 8:06 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: All: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? So techsupport folks aside.. the product they sell is: A) DHCP only, single address, dynamic B) Single Static address (uplift of 25$/month I believe?) C) 5 ips STATICALLY ROUTED AS /32's!! (WTF??) for 25$ above the option-B above/month. You can't bring your own space You can't do BGP You can get more than 5 ips (in 5 ip chunks I believe) for 25$/month per chunk... ip address rental, welcome to 1999! Also, I know that on 701 the rate of BGP to non-BGP customers was increasing and was at ~30% or so as of ~2007... You'd think that 19262 would see that, see the business opportunity and offer it? Though, I suppose they DO see the business opportunity: You want bgp? you want to bring your own ips? you want more than a DHCP address? Pay up, a lot. weee! fun times! At some point there was fairly serious talk of moving the FIOS product into the last-mile offering for 701 customers as well, guess that didn't happen? :( Seems, to me at least, like the PON technology would be a win/win for large ISP customers... easy upgrade paths (dial-on-demand-bandwidth almost?) and simple CPE deployments: Ethernet? sure it's available! -chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Faisal Imtiaz fai...@snappydsl.net wrote: So I have to ask you the big question... Why do you want to do BGP with Comcast or Verizon ? (Over FIOS or Cable ?) Is the intent to Peer with their network ? (which they will rightfully only allow on bigger fatter connections).. 'peer' has many connotations, I think most of the cases of it over FIOS are just: I want bgp so I can announce my prefixes, and see yours/default/etc (which leads to 'multihoming' and other normal (for businesses) activities on the Internet. or Are you trying to delivery your IP's to a End Customer behind that FIOS / Cable Connection ? ... (there a ways to accomplish this without needing their cooperation..) or you are multihomed or you want some semblence of 'the internet is down' so other bits of your infrastructure can take over or you want ... a thousand other things.
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Faisal Imtiaz wrote: Why do you want to do BGP with Comcast or Verizon ? (Over FIOS or Cable ?) To gain redundancy for a consulting client. Is the intent to Peer with their network ? (which they will rightfully only allow on bigger fatter connections).. I think you mean higher margin connections ;) As far as I know, most major carriers will still sell you a T1 for Internet access (and even BGP!) if you want it. Are you trying to delivery your IP's to a End Customer behind that FIOS / Cable Connection ? ... (there a ways to accomplish this without needing their cooperation..) Running BGP over a tunnel is one (albeit sub-optimal) option, but I don't know of any providers that sell such a service. All of the other options have varying degrees of downside, i.e. how much of an outage are you willing to put up with when provider A fails, transferring DNS records, etc. jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Peering is generally for a comercial endevor to my understandind fios is a residential service so which are you trying to accomplish Sent from my iPhone On 2012-03-13, at 7:32 PM, Christopher Morrow morrowc.li...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:20 PM, Faisal Imtiaz fai...@snappydsl.net wrote: So I have to ask you the big question... Why do you want to do BGP with Comcast or Verizon ? (Over FIOS or Cable ?) Is the intent to Peer with their network ? (which they will rightfully only allow on bigger fatter connections).. 'peer' has many connotations, I think most of the cases of it over FIOS are just: I want bgp so I can announce my prefixes, and see yours/default/etc (which leads to 'multihoming' and other normal (for businesses) activities on the Internet. or Are you trying to delivery your IP's to a End Customer behind that FIOS / Cable Connection ? ... (there a ways to accomplish this without needing their cooperation..) or you are multihomed or you want some semblence of 'the internet is down' so other bits of your infrastructure can take over or you want ... a thousand other things.
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Christopher Morrow wrote: A) DHCP only, single address, dynamic B) Single Static address (uplift of 25$/month I believe?) I think that might be $40/mo now, but I could be mistaken. Also, I know that on 701 the rate of BGP to non-BGP customers was increasing and was at ~30% or so as of ~2007... You'd think that 19262 would see that, see the business opportunity and offer it? Though, I suppose they DO see the business opportunity: You want bgp? you want to bring your own ips? you want more than a DHCP address? Pay up, a lot. I wonder if something is cooking there. When I look at a full BGP view, I see quite a few ASNs downstream of 19262, beyond some that appear to be internal VZ ASNs: * 12.195.9.0/24x.x.x.x 701 19262 30079 * 65.198.73.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 40321 * 68.236.226.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 18762 * 137.71.229.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 20258 * 141.155.220.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 36512 * 143.165.216.0/21 x.x.x.x 701 19262 2923 . jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
4 of the 6 downstreams are multihomed. Only 40321 (Emigrant Bank) and 18762 (Dominick Dominick LLC) are single homed to 19262 (Verizon Online LLC). -Grant On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Christopher Morrow wrote: A) DHCP only, single address, dynamic B) Single Static address (uplift of 25$/month I believe?) I think that might be $40/mo now, but I could be mistaken. Also, I know that on 701 the rate of BGP to non-BGP customers was increasing and was at ~30% or so as of ~2007... You'd think that 19262 would see that, see the business opportunity and offer it? Though, I suppose they DO see the business opportunity: You want bgp? you want to bring your own ips? you want more than a DHCP address? Pay up, a lot. I wonder if something is cooking there. When I look at a full BGP view, I see quite a few ASNs downstream of 19262, beyond some that appear to be internal VZ ASNs: * 12.195.9.0/24x.x.x.x 701 19262 30079 * 65.198.73.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 40321 * 68.236.226.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 18762 * 137.71.229.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 20258 * 141.155.220.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 36512 * 143.165.216.0/21 x.x.x.x 701 19262 2923 . jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:09 PM, Grant Ridder shortdudey...@gmail.com wrote: 4 of the 6 downstreams are multihomed. Only 40321 (Emigrant Bank) and 18762 (Dominick Dominick LLC) are single homed to 19262 (Verizon Online LLC). yup... vz had for quite some time actual 'network' customers behind 19262, as part of larger multi-site deals. they also ran a 'private mpls vpn' across that same core for a time (and likely still do...) -chris On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Christopher Morrow wrote: A) DHCP only, single address, dynamic B) Single Static address (uplift of 25$/month I believe?) I think that might be $40/mo now, but I could be mistaken. Also, I know that on 701 the rate of BGP to non-BGP customers was increasing and was at ~30% or so as of ~2007... You'd think that 19262 would see that, see the business opportunity and offer it? Though, I suppose they DO see the business opportunity: You want bgp? you want to bring your own ips? you want more than a DHCP address? Pay up, a lot. I wonder if something is cooking there. When I look at a full BGP view, I see quite a few ASNs downstream of 19262, beyond some that appear to be internal VZ ASNs: * 12.195.9.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 30079 * 65.198.73.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 40321 * 68.236.226.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 18762 * 137.71.229.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 20258 * 141.155.220.0/24 x.x.x.x 701 19262 36512 * 143.165.216.0/21 x.x.x.x 701 19262 2923 . jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Mark Gauvin mgau...@dryden.ca wrote: Peering is generally for a comercial endevor to my understandind fios is a residential service so which are you trying to accomplish 'peering' really is a loaded term... 'settlement free peering' ? 'bgp peering' ? there are other meanings as well, but I think in the case the person I responded (Faisal?) was asking about he meant 'settlement free peering', which I don't think is what Justin meant, Justin just wants the same as most of the bgp speakers want: multihoming. -chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
What is the SLA for FIOS? I believe that FIOS uses either PON or GPON technology where a single data wavelength is split up to 32 times resulting in a shared pipe back to the CO. Does Verizon offer any SLA at all for FIOS? On the other hand Verizon Wireless offers BGP peering for business customers, but lacks geographically-dispersed peering points with their wired network, which results in unusually high round trip latencies. On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Justin M. Streiner strei...@cluebyfour.org wrote: All: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
Sorry, by saying Peering I mean any kind of direct peering.. As to the other reason for running BGP, there are technical solutions to get around this 'lack of cooperation'. Personally speaking, asking for BGP peering on a 'resi' grade service is like going to McDonalds, and asking for a cooking lesson from their Head Chef. No flame or offense intended. Take us for example, we are an independent service provider, technically, can we do bgp over a DSL connection, the answer is yes, can we 'route' a class 'C' for someone purchasing a resi dsl service, the answer is yes... Now the real question you are asking ... (or complaining about) is Do we want to do this ? from a business perspective ..answer is NO. from a Technical perspective... do we have the desire to support it ? ... answer is NO... .. Complex Routing and resi connections just don't mix ... :) So if we don't want to do this, why do you think or feel that VZ or any other Large provider should do this ? (besides. there is this other minor issue that their infrastructure deployed to serve FIOS / Cable / ADSL / UVerse is not designed nor capable of doing BGP with end-user connection / routers.. ). Regards. Faisal Imtiaz Snappy Internet Telecom 7266 SW 48 Street Miami, Fl 33155 Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232 Helpdesk: 305 663 5518 option 2 Email: supp...@snappydsl.net On 3/13/2012 9:15 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Mark Gauvinmgau...@dryden.ca wrote: Peering is generally for a comercial endevor to my understandind fios is a residential service so which are you trying to accomplish 'peering' really is a loaded term... 'settlement free peering' ? 'bgp peering' ? there are other meanings as well, but I think in the case the person I responded (Faisal?) was asking about he meant 'settlement free peering', which I don't think is what Justin meant, Justin just wants the same as most of the bgp speakers want: multihoming. -chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
C) 5 ips STATICALLY ROUTED AS /32's!! (WTF??) for 25$ above the option-B above/month. And people wonder why Verizon is the first to whine about routing table growth from deaggregation? ;-) In all seriousness, though, I don't think they are routed as /32s. I think that's one for the Verizon CPE, 5 for your devices all routed as a single /29. Owen
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: C) 5 ips STATICALLY ROUTED AS /32's!! (WTF??) for 25$ above the option-B above/month. And people wonder why Verizon is the first to whine about routing table growth from deaggregation? ;-) eh, these end up (I think) aggregated on the edge router, so you get 5 /32's from a /23 (or the like) routed to the edge layer3 device. not as bloaty for the rest of their network as it at first seems. In all seriousness, though, I don't think they are routed as /32s. I think that's one for the Verizon CPE, 5 for your devices all routed as a single /29. owen, seen the config on a live router, yes they are routed as /32's to the VC you are connected to. I probably have the config for my old link in IM/email somewhere. apparently their automation either doesn't understand CIDR, or it was 'too expensive' to make the automation do CIDR once they started to offer extra ips to the business customers. -chris
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: C) 5 ips STATICALLY ROUTED AS /32's!! (WTF??) for 25$ above the option-B above/month. And people wonder why Verizon is the first to whine about routing table growth from deaggregation? ;-) In all seriousness, though, I don't think they are routed as /32s. I think that's one for the Verizon CPE, 5 for your devices all routed as a single /29. Nope. I have FiOS and the 5 IPs. They are 5 IPs, in sequence, at a completely arbitrary location in a /24 subnet. They're not routed to anywhere. I can plug an plain old hub into the FiOS ONT and whatever machine responds to the ARP request gets them. I too expected they were going to be a /29 routed to an exterior interface. I was disappointed since I could have squeezed 9 IPs out of that. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William D. Herrin her...@dirtside.com b...@herrin.us 3005 Crane Dr. .. Web: http://bill.herrin.us/ Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
RE: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
One possible avenue is put a router/computer in a colo and build a GRE tunnel over your FiOS connection to the data center, and then peer with folk there. Frank -Original Message- From: Justin M. Streiner [mailto:strei...@cluebyfour.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:27 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? All: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? jms smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
next lets encapsulate bgp over http next so we can run bgp at wifi hotspots :) On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 12:34 AM, Frank Bulk frnk...@iname.com wrote: One possible avenue is put a router/computer in a colo and build a GRE tunnel over your FiOS connection to the data center, and then peer with folk there. Frank -Original Message- From: Justin M. Streiner [mailto:strei...@cluebyfour.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 5:27 PM To: nanog@nanog.org Subject: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option? All: I realize this might be a bit of a fool's errand, but I'm trying to determine if Verizon will speak BGP with FiOS business customers. Their website is relatively lean on details. Everything that mentions BGP points to VZB services, which does not appear to include FiOS. Looking at the routing table, I do see several non-VZ ASNs downstream of AS19262, so it looks like it might be possible. If that is the case, could anyone lend any insight to get past the what is BGP? response that likely awaits from their salescritters? jms
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Mar 13, 2012, at 8:57 PM, Christopher Morrow wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 11:20 PM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: C) 5 ips STATICALLY ROUTED AS /32's!! (WTF??) for 25$ above the option-B above/month. And people wonder why Verizon is the first to whine about routing table growth from deaggregation? ;-) eh, these end up (I think) aggregated on the edge router, so you get 5 /32's from a /23 (or the like) routed to the edge layer3 device. not as bloaty for the rest of their network as it at first seems. In all seriousness, though, I don't think they are routed as /32s. I think that's one for the Verizon CPE, 5 for your devices all routed as a single /29. owen, seen the config on a live router, yes they are routed as /32's to the VC you are connected to. I probably have the config for my old link in IM/email somewhere. apparently their automation either doesn't understand CIDR, or it was 'too expensive' to make the automation do CIDR once they started to offer extra ips to the business customers. -chris Interesting. I guess to each their own. Many other providers I know are selling 5 IP packages done the other way. Owen
Re: Verizon FiOS - is BGP an option?
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Owen DeLong o...@delong.com wrote: Interesting. I guess to each their own. Many other providers I know are selling 5 IP packages done the other way. many providers are not crazy yes I agree.
