[NSP] Re: facebook and the forum
The trouble is - all us monomaniacs followed the Forum, and nobody joined us. Are they trying to tell us something? 'Here's a lovely forum to have your discussions in', then they tiptoe away quietly and have a great party somewhere else. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 17 August 2012 12:04 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: facebook and the forum On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Bilbo Hill <[1]bilbo_h...@email.com> wrote: The stuff is spread over too many sub forums some of which are just vanity areas for a couple of people to bang on about stuff that interests only them. Is that a projection? I see no vanity areas, only an intelligent and generally successful attempt to divide it into areas of interest. For some, the mechanics of the instrument are a consuming passion. I am not one of these, but I am grateful that there are such people because without them no pipe music would enter the world. For me, the music itself is a consuming passion, and I am disappointed that my favorite [sic] forum, Peacock's Parlour, is not more widely visited and used. But that is how it is, you can't hit people over the head with it, and no-one's hitting me over the head about reed-making and key-pads. -- References 1. mailto:bilbo_h...@email.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: small coals, and the peacock following the hen
On Border pipes, nominally a tone higher, the drones are fixed, in A; they have no bead holes. Cuckold, or the Peacock followed the Hen, swap around between B minor and D major above the A harmony of the drone. This corresponds to playing them in Aminor/Cmajor against G drones on NSP. It works, and certainly doesn't sound nasty, which is the only sound argument against any musical idea. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 15 August 2012 11:28 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: small coals, and the peacock following the hen On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 12:26 AM, Anthony Robb <[1]anth...@robbpipes.com> wrote: Here is what Forster Charlton, Colin Ross and Roland Wright put in the introduction to the second edition to the NPS 1st Tune Book: "Small Coals and Little Money and Cuckold Come Out The Amrey are in an unusual mode for which the drones should be tuned to the notes A and E. Any drone which will not tune to either of these two notes is best shut off!" Personally, I agree - others don't. Where I disagree is in saying they are in the same mode. Small Coals is a straightforward A minor tune, although with no 6th (F#) it's neither dorian nor aeolian mode. There is a case for tuning the drones to A for Small Coals if you insist on the drones being concordant with the home key or mode of the tune. I don't personally find that an issue, and neither do other bagpipe traditions, where drones are what drones were meant to be - fixed, so that tunes in different modes sound like they are in different modes. For me, Cuckold is a mixed-mode tune with alternating A minor and C major strains, where A drones have the effect of masking the C major sections because, over A drones, these also sound like A minor. So, if I were an NSP player, I'd leave the drones in G for this tune, which I am well aware is heresy. [2]http://youtu.be/71KwJ11O0fI -- References 1. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://youtu.be/71KwJ11O0fI To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Question
Rob, The Woodhorn pictures are still visible, but I could not link to the search engine either. Off to the day job John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of rob@milecastle27.co.uk [rob@milecastle27.co.uk] Sent: 14 June 2012 08:35 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Question Hi Jenny - there's a set attributed to Robert or James Hall in Edinburgh: http://hdl.handle.net/10683/17806 (James was Robert's son and was also piper to the Duke about 100 years ago) I don't know what EUCHMI is or whether the collection is viewable I used to be able to search the Northumberland museum service archives but I can't seem to get to it anymore. Someone will no doubt be along shortly with a list of any Hall pipes in the Bagpipe museum in Morpeth (BTW - there's more traffic elsewhere these days: http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/ ) cheers Rob Quoting "IMPERIAL GLASS & ALUMINUM LTD." : > Thank you for accepting me on the mailing list Wayne! > > Have one question: How do I find out where I can see a Northumbrian > Smallpipe specifically made by my great-great grandfather Robert Hall of > Hedgeley, Powburn, Alnwick, NBL? He made very unique handcrafted ones, > (year about 1840s or 1850's) and I'm very curious if any exist in today's > world - possibly in a museum??? Can anyone guide me in some sort of > direction how I find out about this. I would appreciate any info on this. > These Northumbrian small pipes are really beautiful and I watched a youtube > video of a gal playing one; the song was so beautiful and sweet and cheerful > and warmed my heart. Loved it! Sincerely, Jenny > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Top 'A' fingering for Border pipes
This also applies to the pinched fingering - which apart from pinching the thumb, is identical to low A, which is the one you need if you have to move from high a up to b. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 09 June 2012 19:07 To: Kevin Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Top 'A' fingering for Border pipes If it's in tune, and if it makes life easier, use it. On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 6:08 PM, Kevin <[1]tilb...@yahoo.com> wrote: Hi to All, I am curious to know if any of the pipers who play open-ended pipes, such as the Border Pipes, mouth blown of with bellows, use or have come across a finger style/position that use a 'closed fingering' for the top A (or top note of your chanter). I am not taking about notes above the octave. I got my Border pipe chanter in the early 90s, tuned in A and plays 9 notes, it has a sharpened 7th (G#) hole and can get a G natural by cross fingering. The top A note is/was obtained by lifting the top hand off but keeping the ring finger down as in the Highland finger position (i believe this to be the standard way to get the top note: [bottom hand] oxxx [top hand] xoo o). But, recently I have come across a different and what seems to me a easier way of playing a top A which is in keeping with the 'closed fingering' of the Northumbrian/Scottish Border tradition, and i am wondering if anyone has used or uses this fingering style? the top A would be played like this: oxxx xxx o i have been trying this out on various tunes i play on the Border pipes from Peacock, Bewick, Dixon etc. and this finger style for the top A goes very well with a lot if not all of the tunes. if your chanter is a little sharp in the top A, this will flattening it a fraction, which can add colour to the melody as well as putting a out of tune chanter in tune! if you have a G natural hole/note, without cross fingering, the runs are easy to play as well, but what i find 'natural' to finger, is the tunes where there are jumps from the lower notes to the top A or from a high A down to the lower notes, such tunes as Newmarket Races, Blackett of Wylam...the list is endless... one can play these jumps without leaving go of the chanter with the top hand, a lot steadier and notes are obtained faster. By playing both finger positions for top A, (often in the same tune depending on runs and note order) can add to a versatile technique, also a leap from cross fingering to closed fingering (Border Pipes to Northumbrian Small Pipe) is a step closer (?). I am still experimenting with this finger position but i find i am naturally using it with out much difficulty for my chanter, it would make life easier if i had a chanter with a G natural hole, but when i play G# the top A is not so difficult to play, by alternating the top A finger positions I find playing the difficult passages more steadier and quicker (i consider myself having a slow tempo). I would be curious to know if any of the chanters who model their style on european fingering use this finger position? such as the John Swayne chanters? Best wishes, Kevin -- [2]http://www.ethnopiper.com [3]http://www.youtube.com/kevnsp [4]http://kevnsp.blogspot.com [5]http://facebook.com/kevin.tilbury [6]http://soundcloud.com/kevnsp __ -- To get on or off this list see list information at [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tilb...@yahoo.com 2. http://www.ethnopiper.com/ 3. http://www.youtube.com/kevnsp 4. http://kevnsp.blogspot.com/ 5. http://facebook.com/kevin.tilbury 6. http://soundcloud.com/kevnsp 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Book on J. Collingwood Bruce (early NSP supporter) free on GoogleBooks
Comparing Peacock's 'Cut and Dry Dolly' with Riddell's version, from near Moffat, (or the other versions from Dixon, or Bell), their 2 versions of 'Jockey/Willie stays lang at the Fair', Or 'I saw my Love', with the 'Drunken Wives of Carlisle', makes clear the border was a very porous boundary. Dixon's MS includes many tunes with Scottish versions/antecedents. Vickers has loads of Scots tunes, and others from Ireland and the continent. That is to be expected in/near a port near a border. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 07 March 2012 14:21 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Book on J. Collingwood Bruce (early NSP supporter) free on GoogleBooks On 7 Mar 2012, Gibbons, John wrote: > Bruce was one of the 2 editors of the Northumbrian Minstrelsy, though Stokoe > was the > main editor for the tunes. Both were not ideal - but many of the earlier > Ancient > Melodies Committee, particularly William Kell, Last week I went through the Ancient Melodies Committee correspondence which predates the appearance of the book by some 20-odd years. Bruce had some direct contact with the "sources" - mainly the Duke's pipers, but I think Robert White, Kell and so forth did most of the actual collecting. Bruce had the most appalling handwriting, anyway, particularly when compared with a surprisingly elegant hand from William Green, who was my primary interest on this occasion. I think, as John says, that Stokoe was primarily an editor of already supplied material. The earlier group obviously made extensive enquiries (within certain social limitations), and also had access to a number of source publications such as Oswald, Aird, and Bewick's MSS, all of which are mentioned. There was a lot of deliberation as to which tunes were Scottish and which rightly Northumbrian - in a way that wouldn't be seen as so important today, I think. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Book on J. Collingwood Bruce (early NSP supporter) free on GoogleBooks
Matthew,
Bruce was one of the 2 editors of the Northumbrian Minstrelsy, though Stokoe
was the main editor for the tunes. Both were not ideal - but many of the
earlier Ancient Melodies Committee, particularly William Kell, had died by the
time the book was being prepared. They got the book out, but it isn't as good
as it might have been. In particular it garbled and obscured many of its
sources.
Bruce was involved in other local issues too, including the conservation of the
Roman Wall.
Using Google Books as your library gives rise to selection bias - better to try
and consult the right sources directly, rather than the ones Google Books makes
patchily available.
John
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of
Matthew Boris
Sent: 06 March 2012 22:34
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [NSP] Book on J. Collingwood Bruce (early NSP supporter) free on
GoogleBooks
I was poking around for some information on some of the individuals
involved in the sustainment of the NSP tradition heading into the 20th
century, and it turns out that the book "The life and letters of John
Collingwood Bruce of Newcastle-upon-Tyne" is available on GoogleBooks
for free (having been published in 1905 and thus in the public domain),
both to read on screen or download to various devices.
Though not concerned primarily with the NSP, since JCB did a lot of
other things in his career, a decent number of interesting snippets
come up if you search the therms "pipe", "pipes" or "small-pipes"
("smallpipes" as a term does not appear").
Just though this may be of interest to other folks interested in
history. I can't confirm that it's free in all countries, depending on
Google's licensing agreements and various jurisdictions, but it's worth
looking into. Hope someone else might enjoy this as well.
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: March 2012 TOTM: "Adam a Bell" selected by Julia Say
There is also the question of what did Dixon intend by his blank key signature? Did it mean 'this tune is in Gmix/Cmajor or Adorian'? Or did it mean, as with Highland pipe music, 'I am not bothering to say what the actual key signature is, as you know already'? John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 29 February 2012 23:01 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: March 2012 TOTM: "Adam a Bell" selected by Julia Say On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:33 PM, John Dally <[1]dir...@gmail.com> wrote: Dixon's tunes as transcribed in THE MASTER PIPER are in A mixolydian and the NSpiper has to take into account that there is more involved than simply transposing to G major, and in the case of some of the tunes he/she might just as well play them as written in THE MASTER PIPER. It's an interesting viewpoint, John. There is the precedent of Billy Pigg's 'Skye Crofters' played in nominal A on NSP. In what key do you play 'Athol Highlanders' on NSP? I have to say, it's not a problem for me. I don't play NSP. I have enough other problems. -- References 1. mailto:dir...@gmail.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: March 2012 TOTM: "Adam a Bell" selected by Julia Say
Reading in A and playing in G is also a skill worth learning! It opens up an awful lot of the Scottish repertoire. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 29 February 2012 10:24 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: March 2012 TOTM: "Adam a Bell" selected by Julia Say If anyone wants the dots of the Dixon version, they're in 'The Master Piper', available from NPS. If they need to transcribe it into G before playing it that will be a useful exercise. See the credit for the photo of the Edinburgh pub sign 'Jingling Geordie' which appears with the tune following Adam A Bell in the latest edition. A surprise to me, and a nice touch. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: March 2012 TOTM: "Adam a Bell" selected by Julia Say
Adam a Bell is a glorious version of a grand tune - well chosen Julia! Fits well on NSP in the Dixon version too. Obviously get it back into G first. I love the strain with a 4-beat 2+2+2+3 rhythm - very funky for the 1730's. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of John Dally [dir...@gmail.com] Sent: 29 February 2012 05:52 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] March 2012 TOTM: "Adam a Bell" selected by Julia Say Many thanks to Julia Say for selecting a classic tune for March. Julia writes: William Dixon's "Adam a Bell" and its tune family - through the Peacock "My Dearie sits ower late up" (and the similar but not identical one in Clough). If any new players find these too intimidating there's a 2 strain version in the NPS first tunebook. Its an old tune whose title commemorates an even older event in West Border history - see the ballad of the same name. Dixon's version has 9 strains, Peacock's 5 - I'm sure others must have extended these or inserted strains of their own to suit their own taste for inventiveness. It would be interesting to hear the latest additions. I'm also interested in the different rhythmic emphasis occasioned by the 9/4 or 9/8 time signatures. It goes on both BP and nsp: if anyone wants a transposition of Dixon's version into G for nsp, I can supply either appropriate abc or "the dots". I might even try to find the time to fire up my own recorder and register on soundcloud. Mind...I did say "try"! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: TOTM
And this one too - though the lunch break hasn't yet started, alas John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 09 February 2012 12:18 To: Anthony Robb Cc: DartmouthNPS Subject: [NSP] Re: TOTM Gets the approval of the grumpy old Border pipers on their lunch break Matt & Bill On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:03 PM, Anthony Robb <[1]anth...@robbpipes.com> wrote: Hello all, Here's my offering. [1][2]http://youtu.be/sfiCRPct9vQ Warmest & best Anthony -- References 1. [3]http://youtu.be/sfiCRPct9vQ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://youtu.be/sfiCRPct9vQ 3. http://youtu.be/sfiCRPct9vQ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: February TOTM
Anthony, A great choice - as you say, it, and its relatives, are still giving up their secrets. I first heard it on 'Cut and Dry' when the record came out, and I have been in love with the old tunes - jigs, 4-bar reels, triple hornpipes, the lot - ever since. Many thanks John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 01 February 2012 10:25 To: DartmouthNPS Subject: [NSP] February TOTM Hello All, John Dally has kindly invited me to choose the TOTM for February and it is: The Keelman Ower Land This tune has been a favourite since 1973 when (according to Johnny Handle) Carole & I gave its first public airing in years. It is still yielding up its secrets 38 years on. 3/2 tunes are becoming more popular and widely established as shown by the following abstract from Stewart Hardy submitted to the North Atlantic Fiddle Convention (A" Cos go Cluas - trans. aEUR~from foot to ear') 2012 I think it might be of interest to some: Working with Dinosaurs Triple-time Hornpipes Stewart Hardy The triple-time hornpipes of the British Isles suffered a dramatic reversal of fortune during the eighteenth century: initially one of the most widely played tune forms, at its end the decline was such that if "extinction" was not complete, then continued existence was "critically endangered". Not until the last quarter of the twentieth century was there a significant effort to reawaken interest in this type of tune. A wealth of fabulous material has been unearthed, containing great energy and appeal for performer and listener alike. Without an unbroken oral tradition and with the disappearance of dances associated with these tunes, there are significant challenges to developing historically and contextually informed interpretations. Clues are found in the surviving manuscripts and published collections, folk song and literary descriptions of village dance. Attempts to reconstruct the dances also provide illuminating material. Rediscovering and resurrecting triple-time hornpipes presents an opportunity to observe the shift from social process to aesthetic product in reverse - "from ear to foot" rather than "from foot to ear". In this paper I will explore these issues, demonstrate tunes and suggest some practical and well-founded solutions to problems of interpretation. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: ebay Northumbrian bagpipe (not)
A puzzle - are there any ethnoorganologists out there who can identify the thing? John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of John Dally [dir...@gmail.com] Sent: 06 December 2011 22:29 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] ebay Northumbrian bagpipe (not) Some sort of euro-pipe, very expensive for what it is, but not what the seller claims it is: ebay item #170741342181. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: December TOTM
Cold nights of Winter goes well on both NSP and BP? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Dally Sent: 23 November 2011 03:03 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] December TOTM The obvious topic is tunes with a reference to the season (winter, soltice, Christmas, Hogmany, New Year). I suggest we pick a tune we all want to play and then combine it with one or more other tunes, as suggested by Barry Say. The primary tune would be one we all agree on, and the secondary tunes would be personal choices. The primary tune wouldn't have to be played first. As always, fun is the goal. To get the ball rolling, here are some tunes with reference to winter: "Winter Night Schottische" Kerr 2 "The Winter Wren" (completely self serving) in Julia's forthcoming NPS book "New Christenmiss Day" #259 THE GREAT NORTHERN TUNE BOOK "My Lodging is on the Cold, Cold Ground" Yellow Book "Jack Frost" Green Book There are many more obvious and better choices. What do you want to play or hear played? Follow the discussion on the forum here: http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=426 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle
Kevin, What was the trouble in the end? Or more precisely, what remedy cured it? I'd trust the ones with hands on experimental knowledge rather than a mere theoretician, but theory is all I have! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Kevin [tilb...@yahoo.com] Sent: 16 November 2011 08:57 To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle Many thanks to all who wrote about my chanter being flat. i did what you advised and it has solved the problem. many thanks my chanter is now back in tune. best wishes kevin __ From: Dave Shaw To: Kevin ; Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Sent: Tuesday, 15 November 2011, 10:16 Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle Hi Kevin I would agree with the detail of Philips advice. When the octaves are in tune with each other and the fifth is flat then the reed is too long. You need to shorten the reed by half millimetre cuts(or less) until the intervals are correct. I use a cut throat type razor for this, on an endgrain hardwood block ( boxwood). A heavy craft knife would do on some firm surface, but you have to be careful as you can give yourself a nasty cut if the slightest slip occurs. Tuning the chanter to proper pitch is a whole different ballgame! Cheers, Dave Dave Shaw, Northumbrian and Scottish Smallpipes, Irish Pipes and SHAW Whistles www.daveshaw.co.uk - Original Message - From: "Kevin" <[1]tilb...@yahoo.com> To: "Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site" <[2]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2011 8:20 PM Subject: [NSP] flat chanter in the middle > Hi to All, > Can anyone advice me on the tuning of my chanter to the drones. The top > G and the bottom G are in tune with the drones but the middle notes > especially the D is a fraction out of tune, a little flat. is this > rectified by moving the reed, if so which way? or opening the reed or > closing it? > the chanter has been in tune in the past but since changing the reed i > find these problems, it is either the top/bottom notes are out or the > middle notes are outany advice? > thanks > kevin > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tilb...@yahoo.com 2. mailto:nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle
Kevin If it is a 7-key chanter, one possible cause is a reflection from the foot of the chanter, nearly in resonance with the upper part between the reed and the d hole. If so this resonance might be flat, dragging the d down a bit. Try pushing the cotton wool plug a few mm up the chanter? This helped with the first chanter I owned, though buying one that was made in tune is the way I finally cured that problem. As yours has been in tune before, tweaking the plug might help. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of cwhill [cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk] Sent: 13 November 2011 22:14 To: NSP group Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle I'm presuming that both g notes are actually sounding the proper note? I know you have said they are correct to the drones but those particular notes sound terrible if the drones are just a wee bit off. Do you have access to a tuner? I'd check that the g's on the chanter and drones are actually playing the same note and then check the middle notes to see if they are actually "off" (to the d/D drones). Even the best ears can have off days. Did you make or buy the reed? There's always a little work today on a bought reed to get it to suit your own chanter. Even home made ones can seem fine but do that. I forget how I fixed mine (a long time ago now) but I never got it spot on. When Colin Ross refettled my pipes and made me a new reed for them that problem vanished completely (before I had to just add a little pressure whenever I played a certain note). I'm afraid my unwarranted pride in making a (nearly) good reed took over from common sense :) Colin Hill On 13/11/2011 20:57, Barry Say wrote: > > Hi Kevin > > Do you know what pitch you are tuning at. Is it the same as before? > Do you know what pressure you're playing at. Is it the same as before? > > You could have a reed which naturally gives a flatter d . > > My guess would be to open the reed a fraction and increase your playing > pressure slightly. > If that works but the playing pressure is too high, get back to me. On > list will be fine. > > Barry > > - > "These things may solve your worst nightmare, > or they may eat all of the cheese in your house. > I make no guarantees. > YMMV. " > > > > Kevin wrote: >> Hi to All, >> Can anyone advice me on the tuning of my chanter to the drones. The top >> G and the bottom G are in tune with the drones but the middle notes >> especially the D is a fraction out of tune, a little flat. is this >> rectified by moving the reed, if so which way? or opening the reed or >> closing it? >> the chanter has been in tune in the past but since changing the reed i >> find these problems, it is either the top/bottom notes are out or the >> middle notes are outany advice? >> thanks >> kevin >> >> -- >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4614 - Release Date: 11/13/11 > > - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4614 - Release Date: 11/13/11 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4614 - Release Date: 11/13/11
[NSP] Re: hornpipes for October TOTM
It's a great set - Glen Aln is a grand tune that deserves more outings, and itgoes well into the Marquis of Lorne; the Redesdale rounds the set off nicely. I liked the snaps here and there in the Marquis and the Redesdale. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of John Dally [dir...@gmail.com] Sent: 12 October 2011 23:00 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] hornpipes for October TOTM Here is a set of three hornpipes for October: The Glen Aln, The Marquis of Lorne, The Redesdale: http://soundcloud.com/john-dally/hornpipes-glen-aln-marquis-of I hope you find these enjoyable. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: October TOTM suggestions?
"But John D's folio idea is also good.." I seem to have missed that email - but there are lots of grand tunes in the new folio. John G From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Julia Say [julia@nspipes.co.uk] Sent: 24 September 2011 12:01 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: October TOTM suggestions? On 24 Sep 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: > I could be beastly and suggest 'Billsmoor', > but 'Raylees' is perhaps more user-friendly, and deserves more airtime. And there's a piper there once more, albeit in a barn conversion not the farmhouse itself. But John D's folio idea is also good.. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: October TOTM suggestions?
Thanks for keeping this going. We could try anything by Billy Pigg? I could be beastly and suggest 'Billsmoor', but 'Raylees' is perhaps more user-friendly, and deserves more airtime. Another argument for this is that we haven't done any hornpipes yet, either. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of John Dally [dir...@gmail.com] Sent: 24 September 2011 07:22 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] October TOTM suggestions? This a formal request for suggestions for the October TOTM. The more discussion the merrier. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Farewell to Whisky - Niel Gow
I had thought the ban was due to crop failures after Laki erupted catastrophically - but Napoleon is a likelier culprit with this date, 10 years after it quieted down again. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 13 September 2011 17:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Farewell to Whisky - Niel Gow The note accompanying the fine tune 'Farewell to Whisky' appearing in the Gow 5th collection states: "This tune alludes to prohibiting the making of Whisky in 1799. It is expressive of a Highlander's sorrow on being deprived of his favourite beverage". Also in the 5th collection is the remedy to this distressing situation: 'Whisky Welcome back again', with the note: "Alluding to permitting Whisky to be distilled in the year 1801. It is a merry dancing Tune." I seem to remember reading that the prohibition was caused by a shortage of grain. Can anyone provide anything more specific about the relevant circumstances in 1799 - 1801? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Harvest tunes
Also, from Ireland, the Stack of Wheat and the Little Stack of Barley; the latter is the portion of barley that 'The Ewe with the crooked Horn', the still, is fed with. There should be food and drink as well as music at a decent Harvest supper. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of gibbonssoi...@aol.com [gibbonssoi...@aol.com] Sent: 02 September 2011 15:58 To: theborderpi...@googlemail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Harvest tunes Two or three from Vickers - The Kirn Staff (Kirn = Corn, as in Kirn Supper) and the Threshers, also perhaps The Hare in the Corn, though the hare being in the corn is more of a problem before you have cut it. You'd expect musicians at a Kirn supper. There are probably a few more out there. Of course I nearly forgot Corn Rigs. John In a message dated 02/09/2011 12:45:27 GMT Daylight Time, theborderpi...@googlemail.com writes: Yes, Cut & Dry is the obvious one. I did a survey of versions for an article in the NPS mag many (harvest) moons ago, and have since come up with more information and my own version, but one good version is enough (e.g. Peacock or Dixon). Others with appropriate titles are Jack's Gone A-Shearing (Vickers) and Robin Shure In Hairst [=Sheared in Harvest/Autumn] (in Dixon as Mock The Soldier's Lady), both fine 3/2 hornpipes. These have made me ponder about a connection between the lost 3/2 hornpipe and the physical activity of harvesting - I have read that pipers played for harvest workers. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: September TOTM
Happy to add a 4th vote to this overwhelming consensus of 3. Cuddy is a wonderful tune - and most versions are somehow excellent, even if not all the same. For a real outlier, look at the Scottish pipe-style fiddle version in 'The Master Piper' - Matt will remember the source. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 01 September 2011 16:13 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: September TOTM Cuddy Claw'd Her - OK, if a 'consensus' is reached by three people!! But there is little rationale for recommending Peacock's setting to players of Border pipes, as it is one of his tunes which are so obviously 'adapted' to smallpipes by the replacement of all the low F naturals - with high e, of all possibilities. It's not a tune I've gone for so far myself, but Dixon's setting is convincing, and one I've heard convincingly played by Pete Stewart and Dave Faulkner. The Clough setting is also worth serious consideration: it has the authority not only of the Cloughs but of the 'Charlton' book, presumably from one of John Armstrong of Carrick's mss, and also of the enigmatic Reavely ms., presumed to be roughly contemporary with Peacock. The very lightly 'unadapted' version is in the current edition of the 'little yellow book'. And yes I'm working on all the tunes but don't have a camera!! On Thu, Sep 1, 2011 at 12:30 AM, John Dally <[1]dir...@gmail.com> wrote: The consensus for September's TOTM is Peacock, specifically "Cuddy Claw'd Her". This tune can be played on the Northumbrian half-long pipes (which I think should be called the Northumbrian twice as long pipes), as well as the Northumbrian smallpipes. Remember, you can post any month's tune at any time. I hope to have my NSP "Peacock follows the Hen" up soon. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:dir...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off the Wall
Another NSP composition class - 'To write a playing version of W on the W so sensitively that Dunk would recognise much of it, and so well that people are still playing it the best part of a century later' - hard to judge it mind, with this wording At least we know this one is possible, and might well still have takers. Dave's version is more coherent than the Master of Folkestone's original, but the 7-bar and 9-bar strains will have dancers at sixes and sevens. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 05 August 2011 21:33 To: Dave S Cc: Dave Shaw; Dartmouth NPS; Anthony Robb Subject: [NSP] Re: TOTM/shameless plug Hi Dave and others, It's a noble attempt and a kindness to Dunk. But I still think that it's impossible to make anything worthwhile out of that tune whilst remaining literally close to the original. Gilbert Askew and others associated with the compilation of the NPS Tunebook in 1937 treated it very freely, publishing it as Whinshields Hornpipe. Disapproving comments have been made here about what he did with the material, but nevertheless that tune is eagerly played wherever Northumbrian pipers assemble. Dunk's original Whin Shields remains more Off the Wall, than on it. Francis On 5 Aug 2011, at 20:18, Dave S wrote: > > Hi all, > After Dave Shaw piqued my curiosity I got round to playing with WSOTW and > thought I would offer this - the ending is a bit of a fiddle, but whatever > X:11 > T:NPS Collection > T:Whin Shields on the Wall > C:John L. Dunk > Q:1/4=100 > M:2/4 > L:1/16 > K:G > |d2 |:B2G2 G2B2 |A2D2 D2D2 |G2G2 GABc |d3B d2g2 |e2c2 c2e2 |d2G2 G2AB |c2E2 > E2FG :| > ABcd e2fg |decB ABGF |G3E G2B2 |e2B2 B2e2 |d3A d2e2 |a2e2 e2f2 |g3e g2f2 > |e2d2 c2B2 |A2d2 d2fd :| > A2d2 e2fg |a3g gfed |B2G2 GABG |A2D2 D2EF |G2G2 GABc |d6 g2 | e2c2 c2de |1 > d2G2 G2AB |c2B2 A2G2 :|2 dedB GAGE |c2F Fd2G-||G3E G4 |] > > ciao > > Dave S > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: TOTM/shameless plug
Matt has argued an octave pair of drones tuned Gg will work for The Peacock/Mad Moll and other harmonically similar tunes like Cuckold - you want to show up the contrast between the Am and Cmaj in the first and second strain respectively. That is what Peacock probably had to do with his version, as I think bead holes weren't invented yet. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Dave S [david...@pt.lu] Sent: 31 July 2011 21:00 To: Anthony Robb Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: TOTM/shameless plug Hi Anthony, Would it be a possibility for you to play the 1697/8 Playford Mad Moll on your primitive set? If you could get a drone pair to G & C (assuming it's G setup) Mad moll is in Am and has no Fnats in it. I have attached a scan for you -- I know the NSP site will strip it off --- if anyone wants a copy let me know and I will check with Barry/Tim to get it on site somewhere best Dave S On 7/29/2011 11:16 AM, Anthony Robb wrote: > Hello all > I've been reluctant to vote on this since our house is fighting back > whilst we put in a new kitchen, downstairs loo and new wee studio. > There is building dust everywhere and my pipes, mics and other gear are > packed away for the duration. > Even though I can't contribute musically I would go for Peacock. > Perhaps most will be familiar with the snippet: > > Aal the neet ower and ower > And aal the neet ower agyen > Aal the net ower and ower > The peacock followed the hen > > The cock's a dainty dish > The hen's aal hollow within > There's nee deceit in a puddin' > An' pie's a dainty thing > > I also think of (but no idea why or where it comes from) > > Won't ye come cuddle me cuddy > Now won't ye come cuddle me reet > Won't you come cuddle me cuddy > Just as ye did yesterday neet > > That's about all I can offer on TOTM but I also thought some might be > interested to know that I have put my chanter where my mouth is so to > speak and had a very happy > off-the-cuff couple of days putting down 16 tracks (4 of them double > tracked) on my keyless pipes (The Primitives as maker Bill Hedworth > called them). I did it primarily as a teaching resource (even though > there are a few finger-busting favourites) but I've been persuaded to > go for a proper production of it. > Interested parties can go here to see what Stewart Hardy makes of it: > [1]www.robbpipes.com > Thanks for any interest > Anthony > > > > -- > > References > > 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/ > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3793 - Release Date: 07/28/11 > > --
[NSP] Re: August tune of the month: suggestions
My vote would be for the Peacock, and if we use STV, then Herd on the Hill as 2nd preference. The discussions that followed Roxburgh Castle told us a lot about rants v. reels, so maybe one of the old tunes will stir up some good discussions too. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Dally Sent: 22 July 2011 06:45 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] August tune of the month: suggestions Here are a few suggestions for August's tune of the month: "Herd on the Hill" "Peacock Followed the Hen" "Speed the Plough" "Salmon Tails up the Water" Preferences? There's no way to conduct a poll on this forum, so post your comments. If no concensus is reached, then I'll just choose one. All the best, John -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
Without looking at the cup, how could the listener tell? From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 17 July 2011 14:19 To: Gibbons, John Cc: NSPlist group Subject: [NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances On 17 Jul 2011, at 14:10, Francis Wood quoted John Gibbons: >> If the NPS offered a trophy of a silver cup full of beer for anyone playing >> W on the W verbatim from memory . . . ., Just as an afterthought, John, . . . were you suggesting that the cup full of beer be awarded before, or after playing W on the W? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
I wonder what his sister thought of it? She could compose, and her quartet at least is still played. So there must have been music in the family home when they were young. Certainly W on the W looks literate. As Francis points out, it's not a scribble. But it needs massive editing to make sense of it - and Askew's rewrite makes more sense than Dave's repunctuation, though at least the latter works in a way now. Also, why did a Folkestone man write some half dozen 'Northumbrian' tunes? There must be a connection to explain this. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 17 July 2011 00:23 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Dave Shaw; NSPlist Subject: [NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances On 17 Jul 2011, at 00:16, barr...@nspipes.co.uk wrote: > I think they didn't get it! If I feel any suspicion towards that class it is > hugely mitigated by the Christmas Carols of Ralph Vaughan Williams Well yes, but quite a few other other British composers as well! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: on keilder side
PS - 'Ringing Strings' also contains a lovely set of seconds to this lovely tune. John ____ From: Gibbons, John Sent: 15 July 2011 23:00 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: on keilder side Kevin, Tom Anderson, who wrote it, explained in an interview in 1970, printed in his book ''Ringing Strings'' ''I was coming out of Eshaness in late January 1969,the time was after 11pm and as I looked back at the top of the hill leading out of the district I saw so few lights compared to what I had remembered when I was young. As I watched, the lights started going out one by one. That, coupled with the recent death of my late wife, made me think of the old word 'Slockit' meaning, a light that has gone out, and I think that was what inspired the tune.'' John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Dave S [david...@pt.lu] Sent: 15 July 2011 22:27 To: Kevin Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: on keilder side Hi, It's probably a lighthouse on a promontary called "Da Slockit" in the Shetland Islands -- super tune on NSP. Tom Anderson wrote some superb melodies for violin --- and the Kielder is a village and a river Dave S On 7/15/2011 10:43 PM, Kevin wrote: > Hello to All, > i have just had a question from my Swedish friend who is asking the meaning > of a tune: > "On one of Kathryn Tickells earliest recordings "on kielder side" theres a > happy tune called "da slockit light" do you know the tune? > which i can only guess means the turned of light?. > What does it really mean? And what is on kielder side? Is it a river perhaps. > Thanks. Mikael. " > > can anyone enlighten him on the title of the tune? > kevin > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3766 - Release Date: 07/15/11 > >
[NSP] Re: on keilder side
Kevin, Tom Anderson, who wrote it, explained in an interview in 1970, printed in his book ''Ringing Strings'' ''I was coming out of Eshaness in late January 1969,the time was after 11pm and as I looked back at the top of the hill leading out of the district I saw so few lights compared to what I had remembered when I was young. As I watched, the lights started going out one by one. That, coupled with the recent death of my late wife, made me think of the old word 'Slockit' meaning, a light that has gone out, and I think that was what inspired the tune.'' John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Dave S [david...@pt.lu] Sent: 15 July 2011 22:27 To: Kevin Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: on keilder side Hi, It's probably a lighthouse on a promontary called "Da Slockit" in the Shetland Islands -- super tune on NSP. Tom Anderson wrote some superb melodies for violin --- and the Kielder is a village and a river Dave S On 7/15/2011 10:43 PM, Kevin wrote: > Hello to All, > i have just had a question from my Swedish friend who is asking the meaning > of a tune: > "On one of Kathryn Tickells earliest recordings "on kielder side" theres a > happy tune called "da slockit light" do you know the tune? > which i can only guess means the turned of light?. > What does it really mean? And what is on kielder side? Is it a river perhaps. > Thanks. Mikael. " > > can anyone enlighten him on the title of the tune? > kevin > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1516/3766 - Release Date: 07/15/11 > >
[NSP] Re: Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances
I think being accurate about Dunk is unkind enough to be going on with. The original MS of Whinshields on the Wall looks like a free-form improv, in 19thC style, on vaguely Northumbrian musical ideas. But it's so free-form that it sounds like he was drunk when he wrote it. The Dunks were an artistic family, and the connection is maintained, as Dunk's builder's yard has become Folkestone's arts centre, but his sister had all the musical brains. If the NPS offered a trophy of a silver cup full of beer for anyone playing W on the W verbatim from memory, nobody would ever want to win it. It doesn't work, whether in classical, modern or traditional terms. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of barr...@nspipes.co.uk Sent: 15 July 2011 11:56 To: NSPlist Subject: [NSP] Mr Dunk - Inspector of Public Nuisances Quoting Francis Wood : > Another 'traditional' tune, J.L Dunk's Whin Shields on the Wall was > unplayable nonsense when given to the NPS in a literate-looking but > impossible manuscript. Someone, probably the editor Gilbert Askew > has bashed it into the excellent Whinshield's Hornpipe. > I think that Francis is being unkind to Mr James Delanoy Dunk. Mr Dunk was heavily involved in the highbrow music scene of London in the early part of the last century. His sister, Susan Spain-Dunk achieved some recognition as a Classical composer. http://landofllostcontent.blogspot.com/2009/09/susan-spain-dunk-note-in-music-student.html James' writings on music theory are widely regarded as incomprehensible but they reveal someone who has thought deeply about the nature of music. Perhaps he has thought too deeply, for that way madness lies! I suspect that Whin Shields on the Wall as submitted was an attempt to make a work which would bring the NSP into the Classical repertoire of the time. I can make no sense of it but then I have no feeling for the works of Schonberg, Stockhausen, Bertwhistle or Cage. I leave such matters to others in the same way as I leave aside recent attempts to take NSP into the world of contemporary classical music. These ventures simply hold no interest for me. The Lass of Falstone is a pretty good tune though. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
It's clear that some people in the early/mid 20th C called it Shield's Hornpipe. Is there any evidence of this title from before 1900? >From before 1850? You have to push the 'Shield's Hornpipe' title back to 1770, the first ghostly appearance of 'The Morpeth Rant' in Vickers' contents page, remember! So far as I know, the Shields title postdates Shields's death by a century. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 15 July 2011 08:12 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; marga...@watchorn7.plus.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe Hello Margaret Thanks for that. I hear what you say re Jimmy but this is hardly an obscure tune and it seems strange that he would pluck that name out of the air as any other tune with that name is proving elusive. As for the version in question you can hear it here: [1]http://www.folknortheast.com/archive/detail.asp?id=P0010010 I do find the thing fascinating and realise there's bound to be some human conjecture here. I'm wondering now if it might be another case of the 'big dog' interpretation of La Grande Chaine. Which it turns out came from youthful imaginings at a Folkworks Durham Youth Summer School and was then aired by Eleanor Walker on the Session tunes site, but then John Armstrong of Carrick is a much less fanciful source. The matter of real importance and certainty, of course, is that it has survived in various forms and is a cracking tune. Anthony --- On Thu, 14/7/11, Margaret Watchorn wrote: From: Margaret Watchorn Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 14 July, 2011, 22:51 I spent some time with John Armstrong c.1979/1980 playing tunes and going through his wonderful piles of mss. He was very kind and encouraging to a (then) young piper, and passed on some invaluable insights into how he played and what he thought about tunes. Unfortunately I don't have any record of playing the Morpeth Rant with him. I do remember that John was sometimes unsure of a tune from its title, but once the first notes were played, he knew exactly what it was. Similarly, the question 'How does it gan?' that Jimmy Little often asked when playing with Dishalagie was followed by an instant recall of the tune once it started. Best wishes Margaret -Original Message- From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 14 July 2011 22:04 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe To make it absolutely clear, it was not I who attached the name Shield's to the soundclip. Whether the source - JA of C - gave it that title, I don't know. This is not impossible given the Clough connection. The FARNE Core Tunes article on Morpeth Rant (not my work) also gives the Shield attribution. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Gibbons, John <[1][4]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk> wrote: But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John -- References 1. mailto:[5]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.folknortheast.com/archive/detail.asp?id=P0010010 2. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 5. http://uk.mc5.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shield's H'pipe
But isn't Matt just quoting the Cloughs' title there? Beware of secondary sources, in other words - they don't corroborate where they are drawn from. A citation of 'The Morpeth Rant' (new or old) from anyone but the Cloughs, with the Shields' title, from pre-1900 would be interesting - one from anywhere near as far back as 1770, when 'The Morpeth Rant' made its first virtual appearance, would be astonishing. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 14 July 2011 19:49 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Shield's H'pipe Hello Folks I came across this on Farne, even if it's dodgy stuff it might explain the note in the Clough manuscript linking Morpeth Rant to Shield. The piece relates to a sound clip by John Armstrong of Carrick. Title: Shield's Hornpipe Also known as: Morpeth Rant, Morpeth's Hornpipe, Ivy Leaf Hornpipe, Jim Clarks' Hornpipe, Clark's Hornpipe Performer: John Armstrong, Composer: Shield, William (b.1749 d.1829 Although John Armstrong is best remembered as a musician, but he was also well known as a stick dresser and huntsman. He worked two large farms in Elsdon, near to the Army firing range. The Armstrong family claims an unbroken tradition of Northumbrian piping going back at least four generations. The Clough family visited the Armstrong family home at Raylees just after the First World War. It was here that John often played duets with Tom Clough. He also played with Billy Pigg. John owned a magnificent collection of pipe tunes, including original manuscripts by James Hill, Tom Clough and Robert Whinham. He provided many tunes for the Charlton Memorial Tune Book. A series of accidents to his hands, resulting in a stiffening of his fingers, forced John to concentrate on the fiddle in later years. He is featured on the Topic Album 'Bonny North Tyne' (12TS239) and was known to many amongst the older Northumbrian musicians as Carrick, a name taken from his dwelling place and a useful device to differentiate him from the many other John Armstrongs who live along the borders. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants
I think this (courant/rant) may be just a coincidence of syllables. Though there is a general tendency to use various specific dance-names, like rant, reel, courant, hornpipe and even jig, to mean 'dance', and nothing more. Look at 'The Reel of Harden' in 9/8 for an example A lot of Atkinson's bourees and gavottes don't fit the standard baroque definition; modern French bourees can be in 3/8, which certainly doesn't. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 12 July 2011 20:19 To: Anthony Robb Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Rants Yes it got through but with some strange text added (EURYEN every so often). Interesting references Anthony. Do I take it you are identifying the Rant with the Courant(e)? Interesting how one can find diverging etymologies which converge strangely. Cheers Matt -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rants again
Tim has asked the right question - What is the right way of playing a tune, so that it is rantable by a dancer? Can you clarify this, Anthony? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Tim Rolls Sent: 11 July 2011 13:58 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rants again .and from FARNE http://www.folknortheast.com/learn/social-dance/dance-technique The single most striking factor which sets Northumbrian traditional dance aside from those traditional dances known in Southern England, Scotland and other parts of the British Isles is the number of dances which feature vigorous stepping throughout, or as their main feature. The most common step being the rant step, this being found in such dances as The Morpeth Rant, The Quaker's Wife, The Rifleman, Roxburgh Castle, Soldier's Joy and The Triumph. It is not an easy thing to describe dance in text form, there really is no substitute for watching other dancers and copying what they do. To learn the rant step you start by doing "Hop, hop, change (pause), hop, hop, change (pause)". That's two hops on (say) the right foot, one on the left foot and hold it there, then do the same starting on the left foot. Make sure you can do that before moving on to stage two. When it seems to be coming naturally, between the two hops on the same foot you just tap the ground gently with your spare foot. So the rhythm becomes "Hop-tap, hop, change (pause), hop-tap, hop, change (pause)". It is important to note that when stepping on the spot you're not putting your weight on the front foot - it just happens to touch the ground. Some people make a big thing of crossing the front foot over, but really that's not important. You're bound to lose the step occasionally while you're learning it, but just drop back to the "hop, hop, change" until y! ou've got the rhythm back and then try it again. The step can be varied to make a traveling step and for use in dancing round figures. So, come on you guys who play for dances, what's the key to playing a Rant? Tim On 11 Jul 2011, at 13:05, Gibbons, John wrote: > Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? > > What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? > If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but > not as much as a reel, > smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of > the even ones, > will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? > > Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description > misses? > > > > John > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[NSP] Re: Rants again
Why has this rant thread gone so quiet all last week? What makes a tune sound like a rant, rather than a reel or hornpipe? If I take a (4 in a bar) hornpipe without triplets, speed it up a bit, but not as much as a reel, smooth out the dotting a bit, and emphasise the odd beats at the expense of the even ones, will I get a rant? How essential are those 3-crotchet cadences? Are there any essential stylistic features that this attempt at a description misses? John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: whether The Tradition should evolve?
It evidently does, and has done, and surely will do - compare tunes which appeared in Atkinson, Dixon, Vickers and Peacock - or in the 19th century, the sudden popularity of polkas and galops, and the boom in 4/4 hornpipes with respect to 3/2 ones. Or the invention of keyed smallpipes. Ned Pearson's recordings in the middle of the 20th century sounded old-fashioned compared to the others from younger musicians Peter Kennedy and others recorded. The important thing is not that The Tradition should never change, but that it should stay alive - if you want to stop it developing, get rid of all the musicians, and just listen to the records! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Steve Bliven [steve.bli...@comcast.net] Sent: 01 July 2011 23:52 To: Francis Wood Cc: List - NSP Subject: [NSP] Re: Your Video Does this begin again the question of whether The Tradition can/should (choose one) evolve? Best wishes. Steve On 7/1/11 5:00 PM, "Francis Wood" wrote: > Interesting to contemplate how The Tradition will have evolved by then! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re:
Anthony, Francis and all, I've just tried playing Hesleyside and Roxburgh Castle at rant speed, but with hornpipey dotting, and found it very educational, and potentially very musical too. There is a rightness about playing them that way which is very convincing. But they need more work Perhaps all those years of playing them square need undoing first. Something for the Calthorpe session on Wednesday, I think! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 30 June 2011 20:09 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: --- On Thu, 30/6/11, Francis Wood wrote: Hello Anthony, I don't think we disagree. At Stuart Hardy's musical altitude, I'm sure you're right. That's a level I can only admire but never approach. On a more basic level, playing the tune with a dotted rhythm will get you through in a far less exposed manner than playing straight, which would seem to be an ability to acquire before refining the playing to a more regionally idiomatic expertise. Hello Francis I'm still not sure I can agree completely. I've taught lots now myself (more or less regularly since 1976 and mostly beginners/youngsters) - probably in the region of 3500 pupil-hours and found that (hornpipes aside - which are slowish anyway) people get get away with jigs and reels played steady and straight but as soon as we try and dot/lilt them they fall away after a bar or two.This is especially true of (even) slowish jigs. I used to take the approach you outline; get them playing evenly and steadily and then put the regional (some would say the all important) accent in afterwards but getting people to feel a good lilt and use it consistently after having spent months mastering the straight version has proved very difficult indeed. In recent years I've tried to get the lilt in from the off so that even if fingers aren't responding the brain would be taking something in and it seems to work better. Of course the old guys would never hear the straight version in the first place and they have the steadiest pace and control I've ever heard. Scottish and Irish bands were popular in Northumberland but when the old guys swiped their tunes they used their own accent to play them. Sadly that distinctive accent is all too rare these days and it would be great to see more pipers from this area taking it on. The problem is how best to achieve it - which ever way we tackle it results are a long time coming. As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: tin ear man
One out of 2 isn't bad - led to a discussion on the right speed and rhythm for a rant. The only major quibble with the Carlisle one was the slurred snaps where everyone else would prefer the high notes staccato. Being polite about the other one is harder, though telling him to tune the drones and play slower is constructive at least - but as for praise, ' Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. ' Thumper said much the same... John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of John Dally [dir...@gmail.com] Sent: 30 June 2011 17:23 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: tin ear man Even though I think all the comments on the youtube videos that I volunteered to go over the top in the first wave are all correct and useful, I had hoped the spirit of the thing would be more encouraging. I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing videos from all those who have chimed in so far. On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 5:42 AM, <[1]smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk> wrote: on another posting to youtube he is playing the gaita(sp) and sounds better(ish) To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune of the Month, July, "Roxborough Castle"
Playing hornpipes in Irish sessions - the Telegraph at the top of Brixton Hill particularly- was good speed practice. But you don't have to worry about closed fingering on a flute! The main difficulty there was finding a beat long enough to snatch a breath Still panting, 20 years later. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 30 June 2011 11:51 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Tune of the Month, July, "Roxborough Castle" -- On Thu, 30/6/11, Francis Wood wrote: It's a lot easier to play Roxborough Castle in dotted rhythm, as is done here. I prefer it played absolutely straight, which is really very challenging. A commonly played tune which is rarely played well. I quite like this rendition here . . . seems to have been videoed during a casual session by a bystander. Hello Francis I think that might be an oversimpification. Stewart Hardy with his years of top notch tuition experience would say that all things (especially speed) being equal dotted rhythms are harder. What we have here is a reduction of speed from the typical rant speed of 96 bpm to a hornpipe at 76 bpm. As you say it is OK but even at that speed he loses his rhythm when it comes to the top As which should be dotted quavers but come out as quick flicks. My first realisation that rants were almost as dotted as hornpipes but 25% faster came at Archie Bertram's when they all played Roxburgh and Hesleyside with almost hornpipe lilt but at a speed which left me floundering. It wasn't the normal straight reel speed of 106 bpm which isn't easy but for me certainly a bit easier that the rant rhythm at 96 bpm. I wondering if other players on the list find the rant speed & rhythm a challenge? As for other comments I think you are spot on. Warmest & best Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ahh yes the Northumbrian Minstrelsy
For the tunes at least, a lot more interesting than NM - though it was important when it came out - is the source material for it, a lot of which is on FARNE. The Antiquaries society MS, Topliff's collection and of course Vickers and Atkinson, are all there, and were sources for NM. The Antiquaries society MS includes variation sets which are extensions of Peacock - eg versions of Cut and Dry with top a's in an extra strain. Stokoe mixed tunes up, cut variation sets mercilessly, bowdlerised titles, and seems not to have fully understood the nature of the music he was dealing with. But the Antiquaries society wouldn't have got that material collected if it hadn't been for that letter... John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk [smallpi...@machineconcepts.co.uk] Sent: 29 June 2011 20:57 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Ahh yes the Northumbrian Minstrelsy here is the link http://ia600200.us.archive.org/12/items/ACollectionOfTheBalladsMelodiesAndSmall-pipeTunesOfNorthumbria/NorthumbrianBallads.pdf Cleaner link on the NSP forum:- http://www.northumbrianpipers.org.uk/pipersforum/index.php To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Last call for Newcastleton Piping Comps
The midges in Newcastleton are as nothing compared to the ones on the 'right' side of the border along Kielder Water. On our only trip there, we stopped on the way to admire the view of the lake, and were eaten alive. The cost of getting there is measured in blood! But Liddesdale was always like that John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 27 June 2011 15:03 To: Dartmouth NPS; NPS Discussion; bellowspipes; english_and_other_bagpipes; Matt Seattle Subject: [NSP] Re: Last call for Newcastleton Piping Comps On 27 Jun 2011, Matt Seattle wrote: >On the minus side, it is a competition. Also on the minus side - very unfortunately - is the cost of getting there from almost anywhere. Otherwise I'd be there. I'd recommend almost everything about it (except possibly the midges) Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
I've never seen anyone's goats playing a shawm - playing the goat, perhaps. You are perhaps thinking of the Great God Pan, who played another wind instrument... John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of cwhill Sent: 24 June 2011 12:24 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead I was more thinking along the lines of "look what they've done to my song, Ma". There is, of course, a serious side to it when deciding on which part of the tradition one wishes to set as the norm. With the best will in the world, how people actually played music before recordings were available has to be "best guess". Research can help somewhat but nothing compares with the actual "not like that, like this" of a fellow piper. That's one of the reasons that I tend to be not so pedantic on how to play the pipes (within reason) including which came first - the stopped chanter or the "one finger off at a time". Lucky accident or careful deliberation?. Of course, one wonders who actually thought of killing a goat and using the skin for the bag. Imagine some guy sitting watching his goats playing a shawm, getting out of breath (and they do take a lot of puff) and thinking "I have a cunning plan". Colin Hill On 24/06/2011 09:34, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: > >> If Beethoven were alive >> today and could hear (:)), would he have recognised his >> compositions as >> played > > I'm very sure he would have recognised the pieces but he might have thought > people had a very funny way of playing them. > > Though I did once hear a recording of piece by Palestrina that I had actually > sung myself and failed to recognise it. > This was the choir of the Sistine Chapel around 1935 with masses of vibrato, > poor tuning in general and rubato all over the shop. > > I also once heard a local choir singing three pieces - one by Haydn, one by > Bruckner and one by Britten, and I couldn't tell which was which. > > And I once failed to recognise that a rock band had played Little Wing in one > of their sets. > > But I don't think it's this kind of gross inaccuracy that we're talking about. > CB > > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3721 - Release Date: 06/23/11 > > > - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1388 / Virus Database: 1513/3723 - Release Date: 06/24/11 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
For most tunes - not Meggy's Foot though - and most players - (not early Chris Ormston, not Inky making a point) - notes last *almost* until the next one starts. A written crotchet will be at least a dotted quaver note and less than a semiq pause. Splitting every note into half note and half pause - staccatissimo - sounds weird unless done expertly. I thought this was Barry's point about using the word staccato? Remember Fenwick was writing a tutor for beginners. A tutor for beginners is thus right to attach the closing of a G to (just before) the opening of the next note, A in this case. Once someone has learned the closed fingering, a live teacher can start telling a player to concentrate more on the gaps between the notes, or that this top g needs to be played shorter. Tom Clough wrote that notes should be played their full length, but clearly separated, and Fenwick is consistent with this. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 23 June 2011 10:42 To: NSPlist Subject: [NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right? I don't have Fenwick's Tutor, but I do have, reprinted elsewhere, the tunes it included, and these, to my mind, show that he had contact with the evolving stem of the Tradition at the time - the first appearance of the longer Hol(e)y Ha'penny set, the Barrington Hornpipe, Coquetside, and Felton Lonnen. Although his Bonny Pit Lad is not the smallpipe version, the other tunes are IMO a good sampling of what we know as the Clough line, with 'big' and 'small' tunes represented. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Forbearance please
Then again, Mr Preston's Hornpipe - tune, variations, title and all would be lost to us if Marsden hadn't got (Playford?) to print it in 170-something! Swings and roundabouts, indeed. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 22 June 2011 12:06 To: Matt Seattle Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Forbearance please --- On Wed, 22/6/11, Matt Seattle wrote: OK Anthony, I won't discuss it, but how good to hear Mr Preston's Hornpipe, it suits the NSP very well IMO. Hello Matt Many thanks for putting us right on the name of the 2nd tune. I'll tell the lasses and make sure we get it right in future. The wonders of the oral tradition! (OK, the name was sent to me via text but you know what I mean!) As aye Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
The Iliad and Odyssey were probably composed sometime between the Mycenaean era and classical times, but the versions we know were almost certainly written down in the early classical era. There is evidence (eg lines that apparently don't scan properly), of language changes between composition and writing down. Generally people in literate societies have far worse memories than in societies with oral/aural cultures. Ask an ear player how many tunes he knows - it will be more than I can remember where I kept the dots of John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 22 June 2011 10:15 To: phi...@gruar.clara.net; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Thank you in turn, Philip. The ancient sagas are an interesting question. I don't know when or how the Iliad and the Odyssey came to be fixed in their present form, but I do know that the Kalevala was a compilation from a variety of sources made only in the 19th century. >A sobering thought for some of us who struggle to remember >tunes, and forget >people's names. Indeed! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Or poppaDOMpompompom POPpadom? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 21 June 2011 16:29 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead P On 21 Jun 2011, at 15:51, Richard York wrote: > Then there's the Beethoven version- poppopaDOM Or this, anyone? Poppadom, Poppadom, Poppadom-pom ? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
In Jacky Layton, and other 4/4's going back to Dixon, playing the semis slightly inegales is a good idea. But still with gaps between! John -Original Message- From: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 21 June 2011 10:39 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk; barr...@nspipes.co.uk; Gibbons, John Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead >that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms >these days, a note >with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is >printed, (so a crotchet >becomes a quaver, for instance), This is the convention I'm familiar with too. I find a useful practise technique for NSP, now that I'm emerging from the doldrums (= renewed obsession with fiddle/violin/viola/viols there are not enough hours in the day) and learning the Jacky Layton variations, is to set the metronome to the semiquaver (very slowly for the time being) and play the semis as demis, the quavers as semis, dotted quavers as quavers and crotchets as dotted quavers. Strict discipline, folks. Do you think Inky and the Big O would approve? Csírz PS détaché doesn't meant the same thing. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Most of the argument here seems to be about the word staccato than any great stylistic difference. -Original Message- From: Julia Say [mailto:julia@nspipes.co.uk] Sent: 21 June 2011 10:05 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk; Gibbons, John Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead On 20 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: > "stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: detached, separated) > staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note" > The word has its natural meaning, in other words. > Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! I believe I read (probably in the online dolmetsch.com music theory site since that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms these days, a note with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is printed, (so a crotchet becomes a quaver, for instance), whilst staccatissimo means the note should be played one quarter of the written value. I have more than a suspicion that the precise meaning of these terms varies from instrument to instrument (different characteristics and all that) as well as through historical and musical time. Maybe an exploration of the relevance and meaning of such terms for the nsp is worthwhile. Tenuto also appears to mean separated, but only by a hair's breadth, which I think we should appropriate, as it describes exactly what we sometimes want. Reading (this time on Wikipedia) legato can be either separated or joined (slurred legato?) depending on instrument and context. What / which do we (nsp-ers) mean by it? And under what circumstances? I once played classical flute - where staccato dots often (but not always) meant tongueing, slurs meant no tongueing. And so on and so forth. Each of us is coming to the nsp with a slightly different perspective and experience and we have to bear this in mind in discussions We have staccatissimo marks in Peacock on Meggy's Foot - and all seem agreed that this is a highly exaggerated staccato tune. So, in our case, staccatissimo could be said to be "as short as you can possibly make it", whilst "staccato" is with the bounce that most players seem to apply to (for example) the first of a pair of repeated notes. Not something that's ever been pointed out to me formally but "most" players do it, almost by instinct. Which makes it traditional in my book. If we can find a consensus on how these terms are / should be used in nspiping, discussions might be a little less confrontational. Julia (who has been told off by both Chris O and I- Adrian for playing "too staccato" - yees!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
When I was in a choir, a composer of a piece we'd commissioned explained legato, poco staccato and staccato respectively as pah, pom, and pop. For NSP, pah is a no-no, as notes need definite ends. So the spectrum we work between is somewhere between pom and pop. Occasional ventures into staccatissimo, as in Meggy's Foot, need a pip instead. But generally the notes should come out like peas, not lentils. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 21 June 2011 09:45 To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk Cc: rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Oops, outlook tells me I've already sent a reply. I wonder what it said... Barry, et al. >May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary > >http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm > Thanks, this is very interesting but unfortunately reminds me that dictionaries are not infallible. (I have been working as a professional translator since 1974). And indeed that musicians and lexicographers cannot always agree on the precise meaning of the terminology they use. For example, here: http://www.winterkonzerte.de/fachbegriffe.html I found: "spiccato: Deutlich, abgesetzt, mit gestoßenen Noten (Bogentechnik bei Streichinstrumenten). staccato: Gestoßen, kurz, abgehackt. Gegensatz:-> legato" The terminology here is very vague, and doesn't explain the fundamental difference between staccato and spiccato, i.e. that staccato stays on the string and spiccato bounces. This is further confused by the fact that French-speakers tend to call any bouncing stroke "sautillé" even though this term more strictly applies to the rapid bouncing of the wood of the bow unassisted, as it were, and is related to tremolo. "sautillé" works well on fast semiquavers, spiccato can be used on relatively slow notes. It is performed with the upper arm and the bow reaches and leaves the string like an aircraft landing and immediatly taking off again or like a stone skimmed across water. Back to Dolmetsch: it does give "staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note" as the basic meaning. Then things get complicated. For example, I can assure you that détaché means what I described in my previous posting, as also found here: http://www.violinonline.com/bowstrokes.htm "Détaché indicates smooth, separate bow strokes should be used for each note (it does not mean detached or disconnected). Notes are of equal value, and are produced with an even, seamless stroke with no variation in pressure." Not because I necessarily trust this source (for example, it makes martelé and staccato sound like the same thing) but having been trained in Luxembourg (where the system and terminology are very much based on the French model) and Liège - and sometimes by French-speaking teachers - this is what I have learnt that the expressions mean. Back to Dolmetsch again: it implies that staccato is the same thing as gestoßen (German), détaché (French), piqué (French). Gestoßen certainly means détaché but piqué doesn't; it means something more like staccatissimo. So I wouldn't rely too much on dictionaries (for example, what is the relevance of the reference to Monteverdi's use of pizzicato in this context?) >Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and >never for >a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. Quite rightly. But it does have a technical meaning for string players. Sorry if I sound like a know-all, but the above is merely a distillation of what I have gathered over several decades to be the consensus among practising string players as opposed to lexicographers and musicologists and is offered FWIW. Best, Chris (wer übt, hat's nötig) Birch To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Barry, "stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: detached, separated) staccare(Italian) to detach, to separate each note" The word has its natural meaning, in other words. Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of barr...@nspipes.co.uk [barr...@nspipes.co.uk] Sent: 20 June 2011 17:53 To: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Cc: rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead Quoting christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu: > < OK, I shouldn't have called it staccato, > > > >Unfortunately some people do seem to think staccato means "short". > Chris, May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and never for a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. Barry To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ending tunes traditionally
Bear in mind that even stopping playing the chanter 'dead' on the final dissonance, say the A minor at the end of Lads of Alnwick, it makes sense to keep the drones going a few beats longer; though whether you regard that as a resolution of a discord or the start of a continuation of the GGGA pattern is probably down to what your inner ear is listening for John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Richard York [rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk] Sent: 18 June 2011 12:44 To: Matt Seattle; NSP group; anth...@robbpipes.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Ending tunes traditionally Thanks both - I find that quite reassuring, and agree about the tendency to the differences betwixt fast and slow ones. Also that tunes some do want it, some don't, but that there's no hard and fast rule emerging is pleasing. Best wishes, Richard. On 18/06/2011 11:42, Matt Seattle wrote: And, bowing to Anthony's greater experience of kirn suppers, this lesser mortal's thoughts are pretty much the same as his about ending such tunes - dancers expect an ending, listeners can happily sit in the air. Felton Lonnen for ex. would IMO be awful with a 'resolution' on the tonic. On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Anthony Robb <[1]anth...@robbpipes.com> wrote: Hello Richard I have to bow to Matt's much greater academic knowledge on this one but I still offer a lesser mortal's thoughts: The old guys I played with were dance driven and would invariably resolve tunes in the manner you describe. As far as my own preference is concerned I find certain tunes cry out for resolution (Lads of Alnwick for example) whilst I like others 'left in the air' (such as The Keelman Ower Land, Sir John Fenwick's the Flower Amang Them All). On singing tunes through in my head to check this I think there might be a pattern emerging. Perhaps tunes ending in fast passages need resolution but slower ones sound quite grittily scrumptious with a long E, for example, against G&D drones. Again this is a personal feeling. After all that has been said about a living/evolving tradition I would not be comfortable giving a definitive answer but hope this helps a bit. As my nana would often say, "just please your Bessie"! Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: [3]It is spam! --- -- References 1. mailto:anth...@robbpipes.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_10077&SPAM=true&path=C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5CRichard%5CLocal%20Settings%5CApplication%20Data%5CPanda%20Security%5CPanda%20Internet%20Security%202011%5CAntiSpam
[NSP] Re: UP open/closed tuning
Francis, I think the tuning of modern UP is optimised when they're played closed. If the chanter's played open, it drinks more air, and plays sharper. Johnny Doran played off the knee a lot, and when Willie Clancy 1st heard him, he thought he was out of tune - a heresy which he repented in later life. Off the knee is a wilder sound, partly because of the element of danger. If you think of UP, played open, in terms of its origin, as a Pastoral pipe chanter with the end missing, then you realise the tuning must be sharpened a bit, without extra fingers downstream to bring it back into tune. However with a conical bore the effect of a finger more or less, more than 2 holes downstream, is fairly minimal. The art in designing them must be to make sure the tuning is consistent (if not the same), across both octaves, in either fingering system. It must be said that not all chanters I've heard succeeded in this. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 17 June 2011 20:58 To: ch...@harris405.plus.com Cc: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead On 17 Jun 2011, at 14:14, ch...@harris405.plus.com wrote: > The Uilleann pipe chanter can be, and often is, played closed, by resting > the chanter on the knee. > It's possible, but more difficult, to get just as clean, detatched playing > as with nsp. > > However this isn't seen as a fundamental distinguishing feature, and is > not insisted upon. The chanter can be played open or closed, and is indeed > played both ways, to get more varied effects. Hello Chris, Thanks for this. I'm ignorant about Uilleann pipes as you'll probably gather. But do you mean to say that the chanter can be played using two radically different fingering systems and still remain _in tune_? If not, can the closed method probably really and properly be regarded as part of the core technique of those pipes? Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: arrogant
I have received no emails via the list from Kyle Eckmann, who doesn't seem to be on it. Why would he ask you to be removed from a list which you don't administer? I think you have been wound up -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Inky- Adrian Sent: 17 June 2011 15:21 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] arrogant I was responding to this post. -- Forwarded message -- From: "Kyle Eckmann" <[1]eckmanncustomt...@hotmail.com> Date: Jun 17, 2011 1:33 PM Subject: RE: [NSP] Billy Pigg To: <[2]inkyadr...@googlemail.com> Hello everyone, I've made several requests over the last year to have my address removed from this mailing list. And I'm still on the list. I just have to much to keep up with these days to contribute to the conversation. So here is my contribution. Inky, You display no joy in your position. You come across as an arrogant ass of an old man who doesn't really enjoy the instrument or the music. Now, Can I please be removed from this mailing list? :) Happy piping! > Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:50:22 +0100 > To: [3]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: [4]inkyadr...@googlemail.com > Subject: [NSP] Billy Pigg > > Fortunately, when I was wanting to play the Union pipes, I ended up at > DGBs in Longfram. I ended up buying the NSPs. Billy Pigg was the piper > I went for because he was sympathetic to Irish music, having been > influenced by Irish musicians and their music, and Scottish music. > Pigg also imitated the various pipes of these countries. He wasn't > interested in tradition. Because of him and various other pipers, > including me, the NSPs have almost become a mixture of playing styles > with the proper technique almost being lost. The NSPs are loosing their > roots and loosing their identity because of lazy, so called players, > who don't know how to play or can't do it properly because of their > slow dexterity or their Pigg stupid ideas. I'm saying this because I > care and it takes a Lancastrian to do it. I've taken to the tradition > more than most and those who say the NSPs can be played any-old-how are > the ones ruining the pipes. Why don't you take up an easy instrument to > play instead of lowering the standard of a fantastic instrument? or > just stop posting on here. > The forum, which I made because it was needed, would not tolerate my > post nor any other postings of this sort becsuse we have one goal: > Traditional NSPs, their history, playing, etc etc. > There is no disagreement with us, we are just progressing and > preserving our NPSs away from those who know little or nothing. So keep > on Dartmouth, where you can bitch, argue or whatever. Nothing is > documented or catagorised on here, our forum does this and we are the > Borg-we are the future. > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:eckmanncustomt...@hotmail.com 2. mailto:inkyadr...@googlemail.com 3. mailto:nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:inkyadr...@googlemail.com 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Ornaments
I think the objection to ornaments is just that they sound muddy, if done fast
and legato,
while anything more complex than a cut from below, {.F}.G or a mordent,
{.G.A}.G is ferociously tricky to play tight.
A cut from above will be out of tune, as well as muddy, if done legato.
There are quite a few French-style tunes in Vickers - dozens of cotillons,
and Peacock has Lady Coventry's Minuet, which is very musettish.
Subsequently French influences seem to have gone out of favour... .
John
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of
cwhill
Sent: 17 June 2011 14:57
To: Dartmouth NPS
Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
That's pretty much the way I was thinking. Of course, one also has to
investigate the origins of the NSP themselves and why the chanter was
stopped considering the vast number of bagpipes found around the world
with open ended chanters.
I do have a keyless chanter and I agree that the need for staccato seems
(to me) far more obvious than with keyed chanters (maybe just because
Meggy's Foot was the first tune I learned on it).
I suppose I was making a comparison with the musette de Cour which does
have music that plays the twiddley bits (OK, ornamentations) which seem
anathema here although they are generally played staccato. It was that
that got me thinking about this recent rift between players (ie stopped
chanter, OK on the musette, not on the NSP).
Somewhere that use of ornamentation seems to have been classed as
"wrong" with NSPs.
Of course, if the French played ornamentations, the British would
probably consider that not the done thing so is the history of the two
countries :)
Sorry, don't mean to be stirring things.
Colin Hill
On 17/06/2011 14:24, Gibbons, John wrote:
>
> When I had a go on a replica (Dunn?) keyless chanter Francis has made for
> Graham Wells,
> I got the feeling that the staccato style was almost required of the player,
> by the way the instrument responded.
> If that was true of the early NSP in general, then the staccato style must
> surely go back that far too.
>
> There is no point closing the end of the chanter - losing a note from the
> range -
> unless you want at least the option of staccato.
>
> Several of the Peacock tunes, most obviously Meggy's Foot, explicitly require
> staccatissimo in places,
> and passages of other tunes - especially pedal passages |GgBg GgBg| etc,
> absolutely need to be played tight on NSP.
> It's worth pointing out that you get analogous passages to these in Dixon,
> /for an open ended chanter/,
> but BP respond differently to NSP; these strains just don't work legato on
> NSP.
>
> The Clough tradition went back to the early days of the instrument,
> and they certainly placed great stress on this stylistic point.
> I wonder what they played UP like when they still had a set?
> They must surely have been nearer the closed end of the UP stylistic spectrum.
>
> I think the issue is not that staccato is musically the only way the NSP can
> be played,
> but that the instrument has always been played this way (with important
> exceptions - Billy Pigg, Richard Mowat),
> and, importantly, that the oldest tunes work best this way on the instrument.
> So a legato style can be musical, but isn't much represented in the tradition
> of the instrument, particularly in southern Northumberland.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
-
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[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
When I had a go on a replica (Dunn?) keyless chanter Francis has made for Graham Wells, I got the feeling that the staccato style was almost required of the player, by the way the instrument responded. If that was true of the early NSP in general, then the staccato style must surely go back that far too. There is no point closing the end of the chanter - losing a note from the range - unless you want at least the option of staccato. Several of the Peacock tunes, most obviously Meggy's Foot, explicitly require staccatissimo in places, and passages of other tunes - especially pedal passages |GgBg GgBg| etc, absolutely need to be played tight on NSP. It's worth pointing out that you get analogous passages to these in Dixon, /for an open ended chanter/, but BP respond differently to NSP; these strains just don't work legato on NSP. The Clough tradition went back to the early days of the instrument, and they certainly placed great stress on this stylistic point. I wonder what they played UP like when they still had a set? They must surely have been nearer the closed end of the UP stylistic spectrum. I think the issue is not that staccato is musically the only way the NSP can be played, but that the instrument has always been played this way (with important exceptions - Billy Pigg, Richard Mowat), and, importantly, that the oldest tunes work best this way on the instrument. So a legato style can be musical, but isn't much represented in the tradition of the instrument, particularly in southern Northumberland. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of cwhill Sent: 17 June 2011 12:40 To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead ... If there is a "correct" was to play, that must have been decided at sometime by someone. I'm thinking here of the closed fingering techniques, one finger off at a time, no choyting etc. I can understand the concept of setting rules for a competition (so like is compared to like) but when did this idea of "proper piping" come about? Is it something that came about accidentaly or was is a joint decision from somewhere. ... Colin Hill On 17/06/2011 09:43, Francis Wood wrote: > > > On 17 Jun 2011, at 09:24, wrote: > >> I reckon being dead is an even greater impediment to hearing them played now. > > Well, if he hadn't been the late Beethoven, how could he have composed the > Late Quartets? > > Francis > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > - > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3707 - Release Date: 06/16/11 > > - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3709 - Release Date: 06/17/11
[NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions
Is talking good sense traditional? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 17 June 2011 10:49 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions Lotsa fun here - Adrian's inspired '6 classes' made me laugh out loud As for 'tradition', it is a neutral, value-free term, there are good traditions and bad - human sacrifice was traditionally practised in some cultures.. As for 'can you play' - in one sense, of course Anthony can play, Adrian can play, and so on. In another sense, none of us can play. Music is a manifestation of Grace beyond all of us. If we are fortunate, occasionally Music visits our stumbling endeavours, and we are blessed. To place a method of articulating notes (detached fingering) above all other considerations - the most obvious being 'which notes?' - is, I venture, missing the point of the exercise. As for Billy Pigg, as has been said here before, his 'Wild Hills' was what pulled many of us in here. It's not pure anything, in the sense of the detached style of the mining areas, or the lilting rhythms of the hill tribes, and it's not faultless playing. But it is pure magic. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Northumbrian Skypers' Society
It sounds like Adrian synchronised to what he heard of Chris, but Chris can only have ignored what he heard of Adrian, as it would have been half a bar later than what he was playing. Proof of concept, anyway... John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 13 June 2011 15:33 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Northumbrian Skypers' Society This short YouTube item may represent a World Première - a Northumbrian pipes duet via Skype dating from Summer 2008. What is pretty certain is that it won't have been done before by such skilled performers, Adrian Schofield in London and Chris Evans in Seattle: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPYs_gdMhRQ Chris on laptop, Adrian in person, in rather flakey video. I've no idea how they managed to synchronise. Clever stuff! Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune of the Month: Felton Lonnen
John's idea of comparing performances of the same piece on NSP and BP is an interesting one; I find that apparently identical settings, suitably transposed, will have a very different musical feel on the 2 instruments, even though they look similar on the page, and feel similar beneath the fingers. The wholly staccato (wooly staccato in my case) or wholly legato versions of the same melody have a very different sound. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Dally Sent: 24 May 2011 16:51 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Tune of the Month: Felton Lonnen As suggested, why don't those of us who want to participate in the TOTM put a video of "Felton Lonnen" up on [1]www.youtube.com during the month of June. Be sure to post a link here so that we all know about it. You might also want to post a link on your favorite Face Book NSP group page. I would respectfully suggest that there be no restrictions as to how many parts, the setting, the key of the tune or the key of the instrument, or style. The idea here is to be as inclusive as possible, to share a good tune, to encourage pipers at all levels of skill, to give us all a better sense of community, and for those of us not living somewhere near Morpeth to get a few positive and helpful comments on our playing. Perhaps someone who knows all about these things could give us a history of the tune, explain the name, list recordings, ms sources, even technical advice, anything that might be interesting or helpful for those of us participating. Because this tune can be played on the Northumbrian half-long pipes, if anyone decides to make a video of the tune played on them, I would encourage them to let us know by posting a link here. All the best, John Dally -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: tune of the month
Free-reed instruments in Europe are only a half-century or less younger than keyed NSP, mind John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 24 May 2011 10:23 To: Cc: dir...@gmail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: tune of the month Since I've never felt the urge to compete, perhaps I shouldn't really comment. But from what I've observed, the competition element in the NSP world is nothing like that in GHB piping. It seems to me that NSP competition is far more about participation in traditional events and receiving some personal endorsement of achievement, rather than defeating the opposition. I've no idea what melodeon culture and tradition is like, but evidently it cannot be ancient, as piping traditions are. If there are strong feelings about how things should be done (preferably expressed in a friendly way, but I won't lose sleep if they are not), I'm interested and glad to read them in this forum. This is essentially a pretty friendly place, though with the occasional angry outburst. Rather like any average marriage, I guess. Love n' Peace to all, Francis On 24 May 2011, at 09:33, wrote: >> Perhaps one of the reasons the melodeon group is so friendly is that >> they don't have competition built into their culture the way pipers >> do. (For a diatribe on the subject see my editorial at >> [2]www.theotherpipers.org). >> > > Excellent article! > Csírz > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: E major tune
It is remarkable that an Emaj tune can be played successfully, 4 sharps away from the NSP's home key. It might be easier if the tune was on a gapped scale rather than full-blown E major, but it is hard to avoid the E-B interval, which isn't quite a 5th on NSP, but should be in this key. Playing on the keys rather than fingerholes slows us mortals down, too. I'd like to see the dots or abc of the tune, just to know what some people are managing nowadays. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 17 May 2011 14:00 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] E major tune Hello Dave & all Catriona has got back to me: The tune was called the Lounge Bar - written by Norwegian fiddler Annlaug Borsheim. I've asked her for the dots if poss. Something has clicked in my old brain and I'm thinking it might have been a jig - not a reel - but it fairly rocked along. Will keep you posted Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
The main trouble in C major is the third, E. If it is tuned a fifth above A, which is a fifth above D, which is a fifth above G, which is a fifth above C, then it will be too sharp for C major. A major third is perceptibly flatter thanfour fifths minus 2 octaves. Either this chain of fifths all need flattening slightly, or you need careful attention to bag pressure to keep the E's in tune. If a set were designed to play in C and F a lot, the maker might have to sacrifice the option of playing in A. Playing in E is already problematic for 'normal' sets designed around G major. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 10 May 2011 09:09 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; a@ntlworld.com Subject: [NSP] Re: even more on G and D right next to G, is C - so the drones are >not being forced into >unnatural contortions to get there in terms of temperament, I don't understand the reference to temperament here. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: D chanter on AU ebay
Maybe a confused description - could Colin clarify this? But there are a lot of keys at the top end. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Dally [dir...@gmail.com] Sent: 24 March 2011 17:25 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] D chanter on AU ebay Curious about the keys on this chanter. Chanter Keys (10 - A, B, C, d, e, f, g, G#, a, A#, b, c, Cnat, d, E, F, G, A) If transposed to an F chanter that would be D E F# g a b c C# d D# e f# Fnat g A B C D. That is an unusual selection isn't it? Thanks for posting, Julia, but I don't think I'll be bidding on it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
There's a concerto of Ligeti's where there's a 'chord' for horns, of a pair of E flats, on horns of different pitches, so they are a comma apart. A lovely noise, and very effective in context. If anyone needs to know what a comma feels like, that's the place to look. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Dally Sent: 11 February 2011 16:44 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch This discussion prompted me to read again a book I read a couple of years ago: HOW EQUAL TEMPERAMENT RUINED HARMONY (AND WHY YOU SHOULD CARE), by Ross W. Duffin, Norton, NY, 2007. Duffin and Benade were colleagues. Duffin is a professor of Early Music. Trying to wrap my brain commas and the "wolf" and the difference between a Ab and G#, always with the idea in mind of tuning a chanter to drones, it would appear that an important aspect, perhaps even an advantage, to the keyless chanter is that you can tune it more closely to the drones because you have fewer compromises to make, because the chanter is designed to play, basically, in one key. It would be very interesting if one of the pipemakers lurking here would comment on the above. Is my speculation correct? There is another book, TEMPERAMENT: THE IDEA THAT SOLVED MUSIC'S GREATEST RIDDLE (2001) which I also read. Along with finding it nearly useless as a player an instrument with Just Intonation, the author draws some very extravagent conclusions and makes some historical errors. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Francis Wood wrote: > Glad you also think it's good, Bob. > > A little background on Benade here: > > http://acousticalsociety.org/about/awards/gold/12_10_10_benade > > https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html > > What I like is that the material links the theoretical aspects of acoustics > to the practical ways in which instruments actually behave - as well as the > modifications which players like to undertake. > > His other excellent book is 'Horns, Strings and Harmony', a rather more > populist work. Despite the title, there's a good bit about woodwind, > including his design for a multi-keyed flute made out of tubing and bits of > tin can. A keen maker, though not a craftsman; he wanted to see how things > could be made to work and how they could be modified to work better. > > Francis > On 11 Feb 2011, at 13:44, BobG wrote: > >> Francis, >> Thanks for the ref to Arthur Benade's book. I've just bought it, and first >> indications are that it is excellent! >> Bob >> >> - Original Message - From: "Francis Wood" >> To: >> Cc: "Dartmouth NPS" >> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 2:38 PM >> Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch >> >> >>> >>> >>> On 10 Feb 2011, at 13:43, Julia Say wrote: >>> a small depression could surely catch a sound wave at a funny angle and cause it to behave in a less than theoretically perfect manner >>> >>> It's really much more like the effect caused by a tiny irregularity in a >>> tooth. It seems massively more important than it actually is. >>> >>> There's absolutely no possibility of "theoretically perfect" behaviour in a >>> woodwind bore, so consequently these insignificant irregularities cannot >>> possibly disturb such perfection. >>> Practically speaking (unless one is unbelievably expert) the factors >>> influencing sound waves in an NSP bore are a good mixture of the laws of >>> Physics and Sod's Law. In varying proportions, obviously. >>> >>> I don't think I've seen Arthur Benade's Fundamentals of Musical Acoustics >>> mentioned in this forum. I certainly can't claim to know it well, or to >>> understand most of it. But I think it is one of the best regarded textbooks >>> on musical acoustics written by a first class scientist who also enjoyed >>> making musical instruments (especially wind) when he wasn't busy with the >>> day job. >>> >>> I'm mentioning this here because it's a book I turn to in curiosity when >>> the behaviour of woodwinds is in question. >>> >>> Francis >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> > > > >
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
There won't be any 'funny bounces'. You get those effects with short waves in a large cavity. Here the wavelength, up to 1m, is much longer than the size of the hole, a few mm. The main contribution for a small hole is proportional to the volume of the hole. The shape is irrelevant, pretty much. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 10 February 2011 13:44 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch > From: Francis Wood Sent: 10 February 2011 11:55 > Personally, I'd avoid leaving those marks. As would we all, I think. > But I'm grateful to those early makers > who did, because it leaves unequivocal evidence of the intended position of > those > tone-holes, no matter how much they have been altered. No, surely it just marks the point at which the drill "landed", which might not have been at rightangles to the bore in the first place. I could foresee a situation in which the point of the drill (particularly if a pilot hole is drilled through first using - say - a 2mm drill - could be a couple of mm out from where the centre of the hole actually ends up. And that could make quite a difference. Also I'm not convinced by the "the tone holes are much bigger" argument. If we have waves bouncing about in there, a small depression could surely catch a sound wave at a funny angle and cause it to behave in a less than theoretically perfect manner - I' m thinking of the sort of "dodgy bounces" that any tennis player or cricketer might encounter occasionally (to put in terms I can follow!) Have you ever watched a high sea bouncing off a promenade? All sorts of crazy cross waves happen, and often not repeatably. Once there's a "loose wave" in there doing unpredictable things, even if only a tiny proportion of the moving air, I'm sure the resultant maths could get one whole lot more hairy. And the resultant sound less pleasing in some way. (I did spend 10 years operating a machine that made atomic nuclei wobble and recording the results, so I am aware that there are all sorts of micro- possibilities - even if I can't describe the effects in acceptably scientific terms). Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
Irregularities in the bore will affect the boundary layer, if not the wave impedance of the bore. So alteration to the tone rather than the pitch? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 10 February 2011 11:55 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch Interesting speculation there, Julia. One notable thought is the difference between modern and earlier-centuries perception of this matter of the work marks in the bore. They are very common in Reid instruments which all show an extraordinary degree of craftsmanship. I've just had a look inside an exquisite ivory musette bore, and yes, the point of the drill is very visible. It clearly wasn't thought very important in the 18th and 19th century when instrument design developed as a result of enormous quantities of experimentation and experience in certain families. Personally, I'd avoid leaving those marks. But I'm grateful to those early makers who did, because it leaves unequivocal evidence of the intended position of those tone-holes, no matter how much they have been altered. In response to your question about unevenness at those drill points and the effect on standing waves, I strongly doubt (and this is just a guess) that it would have any effect on standing waves. Consider that the volume of the cavity caused by a tiny drill point is virtually nothing compared with the volume of the huge cavity that lies immediately opposite; the tone-hole itself. The other thing to consider here is the nature of the cylindrical bore. We expect cylindrical bores to behave in predictable ways because that's what acousticians tell us. To a large extent thats reliable wisdom, but what applies to a clarinet is certainly not true of a small-pipe bore which may be anything from 4mm (very early) to 5+mm (some recent examples). A small pipe-bore cannot function as a theoretical cylindrical bore because of the relatively huge tone-hole cavities. The same is true of a clarinet but the relative disturbance is proportionally much less. It would be nice to think of a well made small-pipe bore as analagous to a long regular and smooth surfaced walking stick. In practice, its effective shape is closer to some knobbly stick pulled out of a hedge. Even if you have sanded it and varnished it afterwards! Even with such an irregular effective bore-profile, it still works best when coated with oil. I wonder what is the best kind of oil to use? Does anyone have any ideas on that? Yours mischievously, Francis On 10 Feb 2011, at 10:38, Julia Say wrote: > On 9 Feb 2011, Philip Gruar wrote: > >> I'll just say that with care, a flat-ended drill and delicacy >> of touch, there should be no need for rods down the bore. You just stop the >> drill before it goes too deep! > > Well, quite. One can both hear and feel the drill reaching the bore. > Nevertheless > it was something I was warned about, and was checked up on. > > Now I'm wondering about the acoustic effect of all those "dimples" that do > occur in > various makes of pipes (historical and otherwise) on what I believe is > supposed to > be a smooth shiny bore. > (Not to mention all the "agricultural" standard bores that are about - this a > phrase which makers fettlers sometimes use!) > > My ivory chanter is jointed near the low E and when I got it, squeaked on > that key > at the least provocation. Adrian had a look at it and suggested there was > possible > unevenness in the jointing. We had a bit of a go at sorting it and the matter > improved (so did my playing, which probably helped too). > > The point being that I'm wondering whether the uneveness caused by drill > marks in > the bore would be sufficient in some cases to upset or affect the standing > waves > and therefore tuning / tone / stability / reed / whatever. > > Since that's physics, which frightens me rigid due to some very poor teaching > in my > yoof, I'm going to tiptoe away now and let the heavy duty theorists get to > work on > the suggestion. > > Julia > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Started Wikipedia article "F+ (pitch)"
I would not see much point in a separate article on this. It is not a rigorous standard, as people have been saying, just a de facto acknowledgement of the fact that if you want to make pipes that are in tune with most other sets, then that is about the pitch you need. So there is very little published that is usefully citable. The term is mentioned and defined adequately in the only contexts where it is useful, the NSP and related articles. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matthew Boris [matthew_p...@hotmail.com] Sent: 10 February 2011 05:59 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Started Wikipedia article "F+ (pitch)" Given that the vagaries of NSP tuning take some explaining, and are briefly mentioned in the NSP article on Wikipedia, I turned the term "F+" into a wikilink and started a new article for it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%2B_%28pitch%29 If anyone has any _footnoted_ material they'd like to add, from a reputable published source or musical journal, it'd be good to flesh it out a little bit. I just ask that we try to footnote data vice putting in personal knowledge; the goal is to compile existing published info vice our own research (though in fairness plenty of folks on this list know as much as anyone can on the subject). To add a footnote on wiki you just type your citation between the terms and and it will automatically number itself and list itself at the bottom of the page. Any particular heartburn with the title? "F+" seems to be as close to a standard way to say "a little sharp of modern Concert F as NSP tend to be" as there is. And though I realise 20c isn't a rock-solid standard, it does seem to be a common working number. Thanks for any edits or suggestions. -Matthew -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
As for the Reids' hole spacings, Dr. Wells is probably better placed than anyone to answer, having looked at most of the survivors. He might also know which ones look to have the original hole spacings and which show signs of subsequent work? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 09 February 2011 16:42 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch On 9 Feb 2011, Anthony Robb wrote: > The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings >of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet >Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. We know that Billy was in the habit of making his reeds as sharp as possible -and not just so that he could get over the "John Doonan problem" but all the time - he liked them that way, apparently. Annie Snaith played in F# to accompany him, she said. He learnt to make reeds from George Storey who learnt from Richard Mowat who learnt from...? (Obviously with influence from other players but that's the basic "chain") 10-12 of us, on an assortment of modern makers' pipes (5, I think, but at least 4) happily played along with Andrew on Monday without much perceptible difficulty. I didn't have a tuner out but my ears would tell me we were certainly no sharper than F+20, and probably a bit shy of that. >Add to that the modern trend to >play as near to F (A=440) as possible, eh? Not on my watch! Based on the meetings I go to I would have said F=20 to F+ 30 was about the norm, varying a bit depending on the season, the venue temperature, the degree of exciting-ness, the amount of alcohol consumed etc etc Concert F and below I reserve for the top of the Wannies and suchlike Arctic locations. It was E one year with the windchill. I've had my wrist slapped on reaching F+40/50, but that's where I want to play if I can. >What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's >scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that >with Ross/Nelson figures. Are the Reid ones not in C&B (don't have it to hand)? We also have Clough figures, there are Hedworth ones and I'm sure I've seen comparison charts of this kind in at least two locations in the past few years. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
But have they been rereeded (almost certainly) and retuned (quite possibly) since leaving the workshop? Rereeding can account for a semitone, and the tuning could then have been readjusted for consistency once they were flattened. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 09 February 2011 16:02 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Tuning/pitch Francis wood wrote today: There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. Hello Francis, John and others with the stamina to keep reading this, The puzzling thing is that we have had two reports in recent postings of Reid sets happy to play up near F# (for example Billy Pigg) and yet Andrew Davison's Reid set are said to be happy at F+20. This degree of variation would make it impossible for these sets to span the gulf by pressure adjustment. Add to that the modern trend to play as near to F (A=440) as possible, with the resulting move away from the Reid pattern, and here we find ourselves. What would be interesting, Francis, is to see the figures for Reid's scale length (say top g down to bottom D) and compare that with Ross/Nelson figures. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bonny at Morn
I think of the simpler Bewick and the more ornate NM version together as the germ of a short variation set. But they would need some tweaking to fit - the NM version is certainly not hexatonic. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle Sent: 08 February 2011 16:12 To: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Cc: anth...@robbpipes.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:06 AM, <[1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu> wrote: > Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed prefer that key. Yes, it would be horribly high in A min unless you were a natural light tenor. Fair enough. George Welch sings it in B minor - [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA and Judy Dinning sings it in A minor. As a non-NSP player I had assumed that it would feel more at home on the un-keyed notes. Robert Bewick has it in A minor in a setting which has high a and omits f. -- References 1. mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
'It does have the unintended consequence of keeping off the fixed pitch instruments, which may or may not be an advantage, according respectively to taste or the lack of it.' Discuss... -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 07 February 2011 17:26 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Francis Wood Cc: 'Dru Brooke-Taylor'; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships On 7 Feb 2011, Francis Wood wrote: > Yes, that's right. Or to be more precise, Reid pipes play most happily > at F# using (and insert italics here) the most appropriate dimensions > of the modern reed which may well be pretty different from the kind of > reed that Reid intended (conclude italics and insert exclamation > marks). in response to: > On 7 Feb 2011, at 13:03, Gibbons, John wrote: > > > Reid pipes were generally made sharper than the current F+; > > close to modern F# in many cases, so Francis and Graham tell me. Shortly after Andrew Davison took over the 17 key R. Reid set he now plays (which apparently is c. 1836) the fettler who helped him set it up remarked to me that they first, without altering *anything* put in "a reed" - design unspecified - and Andrew played it. The resulting pitch, without any work, oddities or messing on, was F + 20. The entire 170+ year service history of the set is not known, so of course it may have been "attended to" many years ago. and Francis continued: > F# is a lovely pitch, enhancing the staccato capabilities of the > chanter without encountering the compromises in terms of hole spacing, > comfort and tone evident in many G chanters. I totally agree. >F and G both have the > advantage of convenience since they're both standard pitches ..Both have the > advantage > that they are sociable pitches in that they can be played with fixed > pitch instruments, concertinas for example. > > As for F + 20, its use is unknown in the rest of the civilised world. My understanding of the compromises by which this was reached is that until about the 1960s, very few players could play together as the pitch was all over the shop. There were one or two exceptions, but near enough for a generalisation. As more players started, it became apparent that this variation was becoming a major issue. An attempt was made to standardise on concert F by one prominent maker, but this was rendered impractical by the output of another which varied from just sharp of concert F to almost F#. With the reeds mostly in use at this time (60s/70s) attempts to "drop" to concert F when in groups were not successful, and the F+20 pitch was a necessary compromise which could be reached by most players. Checking the pressure and pitch of a roomful of players determined that most, then, were playing at 14-16" water gauge to reach F+20. And there the practicalities rested. It does have the unintended consequence of keeping off the fixed pitch instruments, which may or may not be an advantage, according to taste. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Reid pipes were generally made sharper than the current F+; close to modern F# in many cases, so Francis and Graham tell me. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dru Brooke-Taylor Sent: 07 February 2011 11:39 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships On 7 Feb 2011, at 11:21, Gibbons, John wrote: > A compromise might be a pair of e's, one a true 6th above G, for > playing in G; > another - a perfect fourth above the B, and keyed, for playing in E > minor. > The low E might be harder to arrange practically, but may not be as > critical acoustically?? > > As the most prolific and also one of the best pipemakers both produce > in F+, > and most others too, I don't see much benefit in arguing who's to > blame for the emergence of this de facto standard. > CB And I've been telling people it is because all notes have got gradually sharper over the last 150 years, and that the Reid 'ur-pipes' were made when G was somewhere between where F and G are now. Have I been wrong all this time? Dru To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
A compromise might be a pair of e's, one a true 6th above G, for playing in G; another - a perfect fourth above the B, and keyed, for playing in E minor. The low E might be harder to arrange practically, but may not be as critical acoustically?? As the most prolific and also one of the best pipemakers both produce in F+, and most others too, I don't see much benefit in arguing who's to blame for the emergence of this de facto standard. From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu [christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] Sent: 07 February 2011 09:56 To: dir...@gmail.com Cc: bri...@aol.com; chrisdgr...@gmail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships >Can one maker (which one?) have that much influence? Possibly, I think. I didn't have a specific one in mind as I was primarily speculating on the process (that's why I wrote "a maker" rather than "one maker", but didn't CR fairly recently mention someone "down the road" making lots and lots of pipes in F+? >I was told 20 >cents sharp of F is the tradition. I've heard variously "about 20" and "between 10 and 20" (and occasionally 25) I tune my chanter manipulating the >reed depending on the season and the reed, trying to get the best >balance up and down the chanter, regardless of how many cents I'm off >from F. Of course, this creates problems when playing with other >pipers. But I reckon, at least I'm blowing steady and I'm in tune >with myself. This is probably the best approach unless you regularly play with others or a band the more keys you >want to play in, then the more compromises you have to make in tuning >individual notes? This is inevitable. It's why the concept of "temperament" originated in the first place. Even D poses problems where the E is concerned (so does G for that matter!) and the B is also problematic in A minor. > To play in pure Em one might have to order a >chanter to play specifically in Em. In an ideal world, yes! CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
This makes a lot more sense on a mean-tone tempered instrument like NSP, than on a notionally equal-tempered one like a piano. Different keys do have perceptibly different intervals between the various degrees on NSP, so G-d is pretty true and E-B is on the flat side; but on a piano a fifth is a fifth is a fifth (nearly). John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York [rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk] Sent: 03 February 2011 18:25 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Esoteric tuning relationships I am sure I'm not the only person here who gets different feelings about different keys. G always feels fairly stable, A is a bit more exciting, Em is darker than Am , and so on. When playing an A minor tune I wrote for nsp's on the piano to see what harmonies it wanted, I was playing in Am, the written pitch, to get the right feel. It comes out on the pipes in more-or-less G minor of course, but still has that feeling of lift of being on A rather than G. While I lack the finger facility to play it in Gm on the pipes I suspect it would feel different there, just as it does on "real" Gm on the piano. I put this down to my pipes being tuned with G as their home key, as it were, so the maths is probably the same in relation to G on the piano if you can work out what I mean by this imprecise expression. I realise this could get far far more complicated than my maths will begin to understand, so will content myself with wondering if anyone else gets this feeling, and if it "transposes" itself the same way for you between nsp's and concert pitch instruments. Or am I just approaching ever nearer to being certifiably in need of locking away? Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
With the typographical huge leaps removed - these age-yellowed whisky-stained MS abc files are a b---r to read. X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g>||:f| ec BB| e>f g>e B>e B/Ge/|ec BB| c>d e/d/c/d/ e :| c|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f dd| e>f e>a af| e>f g/f/e/d/ e|| c|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f bd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| e>f g/f/e/d/ e|| ||:f|eA GB|e>B g>B e/d/c/B/ c>f|eA GB|e>B g/f/e/d/ e:|| G|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c dd| E>F E>A Cc|e>f g/f/e/d/ e|| G|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c df g/f/e/d/ ec bB| e>f g>e B>e B/Ge/|ec bB| c>d e/d/c/d/ ef e>a ae| f>g a>f dd| e>f e>a af| e>f g/f/e/d/ ef e>a ae| f>g a>f bd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| e>f g/f/e/d/ eA GB|e>B g>B e/d/c/B/ c>f|eA GB|e>B g/f/e/d/ eF E>A CC|E>G A>c dd| E>F E>A Cc|e>f g/f/e/d/ eF E>A CC|E>G A>c df g/f/e/d/ emailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: > Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, > that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. > I couldn't find anything called "The Rotting of the Cotton Threads" as > such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called "The Rotting of > the Threads", which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up > among the yellowing manuscripts. > It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive > degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has > perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat > each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. > Strange, and rather sad, really. > It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it > correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be > delighted to see it. > I copy it below in abc's > > X:1 > T: The Rotting of the Threads > C:Trad? > M:3/4 > Q:120 > L:1/8 > K:G > |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c > d/2B/2A/2G/2:| > M:7/8 > |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ > M:4/4 > .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ > M:9/8 > .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| > > Best wishes, > Richard. > > > On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: >> A Strathspey, surely? >> >> Francis >> On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't >>> learned yet? >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > >
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
Corrected the upbeats: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g>||:f| ec bB| e>f g>e B>e B/Ge/|ec bB| c>d e/d/c/d/ e :| c|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f dd| e>f e>a af| e>f g/f/e/d/ e|| c|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f bd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| e>f g/f/e/d/ e|| ||:f|eA GB|e>B g>B e/d/c/B/ c>f|eA GB|e>B g/f/e/d/ e:|| G|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c dd| E>F E>A Cc|e>f g/f/e/d/ e|| G|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c df g/f/e/d/ ec bB| e>f g>e B>e B/Ge/|ec bB| c>d e/d/c/d/ ef e>a ae| f>g a>f dd| e>f e>a af| e>f g/f/e/d/ ef e>a ae| f>g a>f bd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| e>f g/f/e/d/ eA GB|e>B g>B e/d/c/B/ c>f|eA GB|e>B g/f/e/d/ eF E>A CC|E>G A>c dd| E>F E>A Cc|e>f g/f/e/d/ eF E>A CC|E>G A>c df g/f/e/d/ emailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: > Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, > that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. > I couldn't find anything called "The Rotting of the Cotton Threads" as > such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called "The Rotting of > the Threads", which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up > among the yellowing manuscripts. > It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive > degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has > perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat > each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. > Strange, and rather sad, really. > It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it > correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be > delighted to see it. > I copy it below in abc's > > X:1 > T: The Rotting of the Threads > C:Trad? > M:3/4 > Q:120 > L:1/8 > K:G > |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c > d/2B/2A/2G/2:| > M:7/8 > |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ > M:4/4 > .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ > M:9/8 > .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| > > Best wishes, > Richard. > > > On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: >> A Strathspey, surely? >> >> Francis >> On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't >>> learned yet? >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > >
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
Richard, Your discovery is a good one, but the rhythm of the title ''The Rotting of the Cotton Threads'' is so clearly a Strathspey, as Francis noted, that I looked elsewhere in the archive. On a moth eaten, yellowing, and (Speyside) whisky-stained sheet of paper I found: X:2 T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads C:Trad? M:4/4 Q:1/4=60 L:1/8 K:A dor g.||:f/| ec bB| e>f g>e B>e B/Ge/|ec bB| c>d e/d/c/d/ ef e>a ae| f>g a>f dd| e>f e>a af| e>f g/f/e/d/ ef e>a ae| f>g a>f bd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe (3fed| e>f g/f/e/d/ eA GB|e>B g>B e/d/c/B/ c>f|eA GB|e>B g/f/e/d/ eF E>A CC|E>G A>c dd| E>F E>A Cc|e>f g/f/e/d/ eF E>A CC|E>G A>c df g/f/e/d/ emailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. R. On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: > Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, Francis, > that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic unravelling. > I couldn't find anything called "The Rotting of the Cotton Threads" as > such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called "The Rotting of > the Threads", which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, turned up > among the yellowing manuscripts. > It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive > degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has > perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat > each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. > Strange, and rather sad, really. > It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it > correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be > delighted to see it. > I copy it below in abc's > > X:1 > T: The Rotting of the Threads > C:Trad? > M:3/4 > Q:120 > L:1/8 > K:G > |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c > d/2B/2A/2G/2:| > M:7/8 > |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ > M:4/4 > .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ > M:9/8 > .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| > M:3/4 > .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| > > Best wishes, > Richard. > > > On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: >> A Strathspey, surely? >> >> Francis >> On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a tune I haven't >>> learned yet? >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > >
[NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ...
Quantz swore by almond oil, and if Fritz's flute had suffered by it it would perhaps show in the historical record One problem is the speed of sound in nitrogen is not the same as in air. A way of coaxing the extra few cents out of a flat chanter would be to hook a nitrogen cylinder up to the bellows. Or helium if that isn't enough. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood Sent: 14 January 2011 15:16 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:31, Julia Say replied: >> ( a while ago i remember there was some discussion of oils. . .) > > And then another one, and then another one. Its one of the > recurrent topics. It's one of those things that has no definitive answer. Almost every option has a possible disadvantage as Dorothy Parker pointed out.: 'Résumé' Razors pain you; Rivers are damp; Acids stain you; And drugs cause cramp. Guns aren't lawful; Nooses give; Gas smells awful; You might as well live. I haven't found the beginning of this thread so I don't know what actual use is being proposed for the oil. Is it for use in the bore? There are historical sources mentioning the use of bore oil (almond, I think) but these are for flutes and recorders as I remember, where an oxidised coating (in a comparatively large bore) will cause virtually no problem and may actually be beneficial. The only historical treatise relevant to the present discussion is Hotteterre's Méthode pour la Musette containing comprehensive maintenance instructions for this smallpipe, all of which are directly applicable to NSPs. He makes no mention of oiling either bore or key-pads. I don't think this is likely to be an accidental omission from such comprehensive instructions. More likely perhaps, it was thought that the oils then available then were likely to bring more problems than benefit in a very narrow bore. I don't know whether anyone has tried playing in an oxygen-free environment. Nobody has yet commented on this. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: rotting of the cotton threads
I had noticed the threads decaying, but hadn't twigged why. Wondered if it was just reducing the internal friction that holds the fibres together?? John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 14 January 2011 14:28 To: Bo Albrechtsen; northumbrian Small Pipes Subject: [NSP] Re: [nsp] re-conditioning ... On 14 Jan 2011, Bo Albrechtsen wrote: > /Julia is perfectly right/ in exclaiming her "gh" ! Thank you, I have been well trained! > Vegetable oil such as the cold press, extra virgin etc in time any such > oil will change > from being an oil and into first a gummy substance ..which was known as a snotomer in the Polymer Research Unit in which I spent 10 years as a technician. As I've said before. Wonderful term, so descriptive and generally recognisable. > Olive oil will solidify a lot slower than > linseed oil but it will become sticky and gluey relatively fast Particularly when in contact with metals such as brass and nickel silver whose components are sometimes part of catalysts - ie they speed the process up. Which I'm convinced doesn't help. > Paraffin oil/liquid paraffin etc > etc is a mineral-oil product which is cheap, not drying and does not > smell at all. It does tend to evaporate however very slowly over time I have observed a tendency for it to start causing rotting of the cotton threads that I use, a process I'm still keeping an eye on and I'm not drawing any conclusions yet. At present it's just something to bear in mind. Others disagree. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: CD's & books at Halsway
Seconded - and probably thirded too, before long! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York [rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk] Sent: 14 January 2011 09:22 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] CD's & books at Halsway Will whoever's taking any NPS etc shop items to the March Halsway pipers' weekend be including the new Matt Seattle Bewick book, and the excellently well reviewed Rob Say CD, please? Looking forward already to a good weekend. Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Shape notes
I think the point is that untrained ear singers may have a better ear for intervals than for absolute pitch. The shapes are an indication of the interval between the note to be sung and the tonic or subdominant - the 4 shapes correspond to fa, sol, la, and mi - a unison, tone, major third, and augmented 4th to the fa. As the whole scale corresponds to this pattern, repeated in whole from fa and in part from do: Tonic sol-faDo re mi, fa sol la ti 4-shape:fa sol la, fa sol la mi You can thus give a good idea of any diatonic tune using the 4 shapes - mediaeval tetrachords were the same idea - they often referred to fingers on a hand as a mnemonic. Don't think of fa as automatically the tonic or the subdominant, as lots of shape note tunes are modal. See Star of the east, in the wikipedia article. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 12 January 2011 09:05 To: greidbis...@gmail.com; d...@brooke-taylor.freeserve.co.uk Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Still off topic: Off-topic request for Hymnbook >easier than straining the eye to see if that little black >circle is an A or a C and how do I then find that pitch on the >spot. Fair enough, but for someone whose vision is as bad as mine, it's easier to see where a blob is (on which line or between which lines?) than to discern the precise shape of the blob (which gives no additional information anyway, so why bother?). And why should shape be easier to correlate to a given pitch than vertical position? The notes in conventional notation (which is identical to shape-note notation minus the shapes) give the visual aid of "going up and down on the stave" while the shapes could be interchangeable by applying different conventions. Note for nothing is a scale called, literally, a "tone ladder" in, for example, Dutch and German. I personally also have a problem with tablature. Conventional notation is like a picture of the music; tablature only a picture of the instrument. All this FWIW, as ever. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Like never before
Very daft. `It's Northumbrian music cap'n but not as we know it' The track continues with Hesleyside Reel, and finally brings out, wonderfully, the true treacliness of Sweet Hesleyside. Can he please murder Rothbury Hills too for an encore maybe? It needs it. I will be going back to the site for a 2nd helping once the headache's gone away. John PS any thoughts, Anthony? From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 07 January 2011 22:19 To: Francis Wood Cc: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Re: Like never before Clever and funny, Francis, well spotted On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 9:43 PM, Francis Wood <[1]oatenp...@googlemail.com> wrote: Two hornpipes as you've never heard them before - The Wordsfail Hornpipe followed by Loudrocks. [2]http://stash.alonetone.com/mp3/13649/Redesdale_Proudlocks_Hesleys ide-WyrDGeneS.mp3 I must say, I really like this. To find out more, Google 'Wyrdgenes' Francis To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:oatenp...@googlemail.com 2. http://stash.alonetone.com/mp3/13649/Redesdale_Proudlocks_Hesleyside-WyrDGeneS.mp3 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan & Glackin)
I'd agree completely about this record. Lovely! I must dig it out again. The precision is what marks it out from a lot of lesser performances, Irish or from wherever. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 15:35 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Doublin' (Keenan & Glackin) If any UP fans haven't heard this album or others want to know more, it was released 31 years ago but has been redone on CD and is available at Amazon: (for UK readers) [1]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doublin-Paddy-Glackin/dp/B4SCTK/ref=sr_1 _4?ie=UTF8&qid=1294413475&sr=8-4 This review just about sums it up: Take two stunning musicians at the height of their powers, let them play a heap of the best tunes ever and this is what you get. Hell-for-leather playing, utterly precise, gives the cleanest example I know of how exciting Irish traditional music can be. It also my favourity version of Paddy Keenan playing the Bucks of Oranmore, which is heart stopping. Pure music - great for learning tunes from, or convincing doubters how good the music can be. Not my words but exactly my sentiments. Cheers Anthony -- References 1. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Doublin-Paddy-Glackin/dp/B4SCTK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1294413475&sr=8-4 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Drone Tuning
Anthony, Certainly adding drones on the 2nd time through, works well on UP, especially on airs. Irish slow airs, being usually vocal music rather than pipe music, maybe don't require a drone so fundamentally. Musically this idea makes less sense on drone music though - double-tonic tunes etc. But with NSP, it is rare to have an on-off drone key, so it is hard for us to do in practice. As for drones being out of tune on recordings - as I said, it is the effect on the listener which matters. I can think of an otherwise excellent recording where the drones were badly out in places, so I know what you mean. But shutting them off is a cop-out, not a solution. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 10:52 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning What you say is true, but still ignores Paddy Maloney's point of adding drones further into (even 'proper') pipes tunes for greater impact. We also have to remember that out of tune drones (and this unfortunately is the norm it seems to me) do little to enhance the music. This is true even in the most surprising quarters i.e. modern recordings where retakes could be done fairly easily to correct this. Yes drones are wonderful and powerful but this power can also be, and all too often is, destructive. Anthony --- On Fri, 7/1/11, Gibbons, John wrote: From: Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: "'Anthony Robb'" , "nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu" , "rob@milecastle27.co.uk" Date: Friday, 7 January, 2011, 10:17 Not at all - but pipes do sound better with drones, which are a fundamental part of the instrument, and also of what we might call 'proper' pipe music. There are some tunes where drones don't work, and some multi-instrument arrangements where they might get in the way, but - on pipe tunes at least - there is a price to pay if you shut them off. My warning was just to your more literal-minded readers out there, who might not think about the effect of their music on listeners. John -Original Message- From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb Sent: 07 January 2011 09:48 To: [3]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [4]rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning John, please remember I was talking in the context of switching off drones to let the music shine forth, not silly things like playing a semitone above everyone else! Many general music sessions involve key changes from G to D to A. Are you saying that pipes should not be adding their crystalline punchiness to the mix just because they have to be droneless? Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, Gibbons, John <[5]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk> wrote: From: Gibbons, John <[6]j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk> Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning To: "Anthony Robb" <[7]anth...@robbpipes.com>, "[8]...@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[9]...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "[10]rob@milecastle27.co.uk" <[11]rob@milecastle27.co.uk> Date: Thursday, 6 January, 2011, 20:50 "Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music." Pleasing everyone else in the room might be a priority for some, as well! I have heard too many so-called traditional musicians play to please themselves (and nobody else) not to add this health warning. You get them everywhere, but I recall the bloke who wound his flute up to E flat because that's the key Matt Molloy played in, though everyone else in the session was in D, and the one who played faster than everyone else because it was more exciting. I've been the latter one myself on occasion Think about how it sounds for the rest of the world, and you will play better. John From: [1][12]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2][13]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb [[3][14]anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 January 2011 18:19 To: [4][15]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [5][16]rob@milecastle27.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning --- On Thu, 6/1/11, [6][17]rob@milecastle27.co.uk <[7][18]rob@milecastle27.co.uk> wrote: It's a case of trying and seeing what you like. The other way round this would be for the
[NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
Not at all - but pipes do sound better with drones, which are a fundamental
part of the instrument,
and also of what we might call 'proper' pipe music.
There are some tunes where drones don't work,
and some multi-instrument arrangements where they might get in the way,
but - on pipe tunes at least - there is a price to pay if you shut them off.
My warning was just to your more literal-minded readers out there,
who might not think about the effect of their music on listeners.
John
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of
Anthony Robb
Sent: 07 January 2011 09:48
To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; rob@milecastle27.co.uk; Gibbons, John
Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
John, please remember I was talking in the context of switching off
drones to let the music shine forth, not silly things like playing a
semitone above everyone else!
Many general music sessions involve key changes from G to D to A.
Are you saying that pipes should not be adding their crystalline
punchiness to the mix just because they have to be droneless?
Cheers
Anthony
--- On Thu, 6/1/11, Gibbons, John wrote:
From: Gibbons, John
Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
To: "Anthony Robb" , "nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu"
, "rob@milecastle27.co.uk"
Date: Thursday, 6 January, 2011, 20:50
"Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most
important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I
would argue is the main purpose of traditional music."
Pleasing everyone else in the room might be a priority for some, as
well!
I have heard too many so-called traditional musicians play to please
themselves (and nobody else) not to add this health warning.
You get them everywhere, but I recall the bloke who wound his flute up
to E flat because that's the key Matt Molloy played in,
though everyone else in the session was in D, and the one who played
faster than everyone else because it was more exciting.
I've been the latter one myself on occasion
Think about how it sounds for the rest of the world, and you will play
better.
John
From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf Of Anthony Robb [[3]anth...@robbpipes.com]
Sent: 06 January 2011 18:19
To: [4]...@cs.dartmouth.edu; [5]rob@milecastle27.co.uk
Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
--- On Thu, 6/1/11, [6]rob@milecastle27.co.uk
<[7]rob@milecastle27.co.uk> wrote:
It's a case of trying and seeing what you like. The other way round
this would be for the piper not to play drones ... but I wouldn't
recommend that approach.
cheers
Rob
Sorry to disagree, Rob, but occasionally switching the drones off to
let other instruments provide the accompaniment can be lovely. I
would
also recommend learning and practising mainly on the chanter alone.
It
is the way I was taught and was the Colin Caisley way presumably
passed
on from Tom Clough. When Colin Caisley was chairman of the NPS in
the
60s the Society hired out a 'goose' (bellows, bag and chanter only)
for
people to try out the pipes.
Recently I came across an article, from the 70s I guess, written by
Paddy Maloney who suggests uillean pipers should learn on a 'goose'
for
3 to 4 years before thinking about getting drones. The premise being
that the chanter is where the music is created and so needs to be
learnt before adding drones or regulators. He also extols the beauty
and effectiveness of playing parts of a piece on solo chanter only
and
then adding accompaniment be it drones or other instruments to lift
the
sound.
On a slightly related topic, people have commented on how well in
tune
the 3 beginner pipers in Windy Gyle Band play on the CD and have
suggested that some digital trickery might be involved. This is
absolutely not the case. All three have learnt to play on chanter
only
and two of them are now (after 3 years) beginning to add drones
occasionally.
The drones can add excitement like nothing else to the pipes sound
but
they can also mask some of the music at times. So my message would
be
follow your ears, try all the options and go with what works for
you.
Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most
important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I
would argue is the main purpose of traditional music.
Cheers
Anthony
--- On Thu, 6/1/11, [8]rob@milecastle27.co.uk
<[9]rob@milecastle27.co.uk> wrote:
To get on or off this li
[NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
"Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music." Pleasing everyone else in the room might be a priority for some, as well! I have heard too many so-called traditional musicians play to please themselves (and nobody else) not to add this health warning. You get them everywhere, but I recall the bloke who wound his flute up to E flat because that's the key Matt Molloy played in, though everyone else in the session was in D, and the one who played faster than everyone else because it was more exciting. I've been the latter one myself on occasion Think about how it sounds for the rest of the world, and you will play better. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 06 January 2011 18:19 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; rob@milecastle27.co.uk Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning --- On Thu, 6/1/11, rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: It's a case of trying and seeing what you like. The other way round this would be for the piper not to play drones ... but I wouldn't recommend that approach. cheers Rob Sorry to disagree, Rob, but occasionally switching the drones off to let other instruments provide the accompaniment can be lovely. I would also recommend learning and practising mainly on the chanter alone. It is the way I was taught and was the Colin Caisley way presumably passed on from Tom Clough. When Colin Caisley was chairman of the NPS in the 60s the Society hired out a 'goose' (bellows, bag and chanter only) for people to try out the pipes. Recently I came across an article, from the 70s I guess, written by Paddy Maloney who suggests uillean pipers should learn on a 'goose' for 3 to 4 years before thinking about getting drones. The premise being that the chanter is where the music is created and so needs to be learnt before adding drones or regulators. He also extols the beauty and effectiveness of playing parts of a piece on solo chanter only and then adding accompaniment be it drones or other instruments to lift the sound. On a slightly related topic, people have commented on how well in tune the 3 beginner pipers in Windy Gyle Band play on the CD and have suggested that some digital trickery might be involved. This is absolutely not the case. All three have learnt to play on chanter only and two of them are now (after 3 years) beginning to add drones occasionally. The drones can add excitement like nothing else to the pipes sound but they can also mask some of the music at times. So my message would be follow your ears, try all the options and go with what works for you. Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I would argue is the main purpose of traditional music. Cheers Anthony --- On Thu, 6/1/11, rob@milecastle27.co.uk wrote: To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Pipes & Fiddles
Sorry about my '...' marks, which were not to indicate a direct quote - but rather to paraphrase the gist of an earlier email, the passage: "Years later [Chris] wondered publicly on this list what had happened to that piper. The answer is, Greg Smith played "The Blackbird" for me. His music, live, fresh, creative, flowing and resonant in my own living room drove me to a radical reappraisal of the pipes and piping. As I've hinted recently, it shattered my world at the time, plunging me into a state of confusion which led to me barely touching the pipes from one month to the for many years." The quotes round my paraphrase were only to say what sentence I was asking about. I'm glad you've returned to the pipes and are now doing your bit for North Northumbrian traditional music. As your piping on Cut and Dry had a powerful effect on me, though, I see where Chris was coming from. De gustibus non disputandum, but at least it keeps the list server busy. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 20 December 2010 17:21 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Pipes & Fiddles Today John Gibbons wrote: Is 'the NSP don't move Anthony as much as the fiddle does', a sentence about the NSP or about Anthony? The answer has to be it's about both. My question is where did the sentence come from? Definitely not the email you are replying to, where I said, "... pipes in the right hands (as Inky Adrian recently pointed out) hit the heart and brain every bit as surely as, say, Heifitz or indeed "Choralation" (Rowan Johnston's New Zealand choir)". I included the reference to "Choralation" because that choir had almost a whole audience moved to tears in Hexham Abbey on the 12th of this month. Not only was I saying the pipes had the power to move me as much as fiddles they even had enough power to move me as much as the human voice. This for me is the ultimate compliment to pipes. He goes on to say: As for Peter Kennedy's 'Drops and Raises' aren't they a survival of 18th C performance practice, which may well have been exactly how the genteel pipers of the early 19th C would have wanted to play, if they could? Well John, they might well be but I don't think so. Here's a little bit of what he says: "This rhythm on the fiddle is created by the traditional tecnique, or as the country musicians call it, by the "drops and raises. .. This rhythmical technique gives the pulsating effect the dancers call 'lilt'. But it also gives continuity. The shimering melodic line, fluctuating from weak to strong, flat to sharp, short notes to long, soft to loud, gives a continuous living environment for the pulsations. Continuity is also aided by the occasional use of drones. .. Inheriting the technique 'traditionally' makes for a standard of dance playing very difficult to acquire in any other way. Let me repeat that the tunes inn this book are only outlined in the notation and some wider experience is required than learning them from the printed page. Listening to good traditional players on gramophone records or on the radio, or better still, in the flesh, will inform the fiddler as no notation can do." Peter Kennedy That's a taste of it but enough to allow people to decide the answer to your question for themselves. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday Post Script and retraction
Is 'the NSP don't move Anthony as much as the fiddle does', a sentence about the NSP or about Anthony? As for Peter Kennedy's 'Drops and Raises' aren't they a survival of 18th C performance practice, which may well have been exactly how the genteel pipers of the early 19th C would have wanted to play, if they could? Peacock certainly has some ornaments notated, and they are certainly playable. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 20 December 2010 11:30 To: Dartmouth NPS Subject: [NSP] Doubleday Post Script and retraction Thanks, Helen, for making me look more deeply into my words. "Highest" is, on deeper thought, a bad choice as pipes in the right hands (as Inky Adrian recently pointed out) hit the heart and brain every bit as surely as, say, Heifitz or indeed "Choralation" (Rowan Johnston's New Zealand choir). I'm not sure if it'll be any better, however, if I substitute fullest for highest. By which I mean hitting heart, brain and body (particulary the feet), simultaneously. This is far harder to pull off on the pipes than, say, the fiddle. It's what Peter Kennedy in the introduction to the Fiddler's Tune Book (OUP 1954) calls "Drops and Raises" a topic he devotes 8 paragraphs to. This is not done easily or by many and clearly not the genteel ladies and gentlemen who were probably the only people able to afford keyed pipes in the mid 18 th century. This takes us back to Doubleday. For me this letter to the Duke of Northumberland said 3 things: a) the old style pipes were brilliant, perfect for the job and really pwerful for their size (I know some who say similar re their Blackberry), b) the recent development in extra range attracted a fashion set who, more often than not, made a dog's dinner of the pieces they attempted, c) this bad playing was giving the pipes themselves a thoroughly underserved bad reputation. There is a fourth thing which was not in the extract posted but something that if not said openly was perhaps implicit in his letter, so this is my d) please do something about this parlous state of affairs. I add this because if the year is correct (1857) it was the same year the Duke appointed a second Duke's Piper, one James Reid of North Shields, to promote the pipes (presumably on Tyneside) and show people how they should be played. I would love to think that a consequence of this was that the genteel folk thought, 'pipes are not for us after all' and promptly sold them on for a fraction of their cost to the likes of the Cloughs and others who knew what to do with them. Pure speculation and merely the result of my own "digestion" of the piece so proper research could well prove me wrong. It would, nevertheless, be a lovely and fitting end to the tale. Cheers Anthony -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: WHW
I'd heard NSP before - including Billy's TV appearance. But that record was what really got the fire burning - Jack Armstrong's LP didn't quite do it for me. Also, as you say, the notes - almost a book - were excellent. Colin's transcription of The Wild Hills of Wannie really helped me to understand what was going on. My only regret now is not getting a set sooner. Good luck to any intrepid souls attempting the yomp on Boxing Day! It might be a chilly one! John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood [oatenp...@googlemail.com] Sent: 19 December 2010 14:55 To: Richard York Cc: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Doubleday et al On 19 Dec 2010, at 12:55, Richard York wrote: > It would be interesting to know how many people, either within the North > Eastern fold or out of it, were first inspired by hearing Mr Pigg's playing, > though. Well, me for a start. Knowing almost nothing about traditional music, and never having heard of Northumbrian pipes, I came across the Billy Pigg LP on Leader Records in a record shop in Colchester. I liked the scholarly presentation with excellent illustrations and notes by Colin Ross and bought it immediately, thinking I'd got something fascinating and totally obscure. On the way home, I met the vicar's wife who said " Oh, I see you've got the Billy Pigg LP!" I immediately played it to my flat-mate who after a couple of minutes, said "Do we have to have this on"? But by then, I was hooked. Francis To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] WHW
That recording of Billy's 'did it' for many of us, I'm sure. Quite far from the idealised view of the Northumbrian Tradition in Doubleday, or the actual tradition he learned from Tom Clough, but wonderful music for all that. Listening to RTE, and artists like Leo Rowsome, must have been a massive influence for him, on this in particular. But the fast passages are a brilliant innovation and entirely his own, so far as I know. And the way they suddenly slow back down at the halfway point is inspired! John To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
The defining performance of the Blackbird for me (both the air and the set dance) was Paddy Keenan's on his solo UP album. That probably owed a bit to Johnny Doran's famous recording. But Chris achieved a tremendous lot on his recording of the air - proving that NSP can be powerfully expressive, if you know how to play them, and respect their limitations. Less is more... From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 18 December 2010 14:04 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; gibbonssoi...@aol.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Doubleday John, I know what you mean. I also think that fiddle and pipes in duet are a Northumbrian version of 'Himmel un Aed'. If I may rewind the discussion and with particular reference to the Chris Ormston's "Blackbird", I have to say it is a far superior track to anything I managed to offer on that album (or indeed in the 10 years either side of it - that was a dreadful period for me stuck in the music doldrums). The thing about the Blackbird was that in about 1985 Greg Smith recorded it for me (with his own variations) on my trusty old Dansette tape recorder. It was breathtaking. Visits over subsequent years produced more recordings of the same tune with yet more mesmerising oramentation/tune development. This piece with its rises and falls, embellishments and softness of song going into harshness of the alarm call had everything and had been firmly implanted on my brain for years before I heard Chris tackle it. When he did, he made a fine job of it but even in a master's hands the pipes failed to touch me as the fiddle version had. I did listen to that track again this morning and I can understand its appeal. I also had the misfortune to hear the embarrassingly unsuccessful attempt at trying to play two lovely Northumbrian Rants after it. So, it's apologies all round for the rubbish perpetrated in the name of piping by yours truly during the years '85-'05 As aye Anthony --- On Sat, 18/12/10, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com Subject: [NSP] Re: Doubleday To: cwh...@santa-fe.freeserve.co.uk, nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 18 December, 2010, 12:35 One thing I like about NSP is the way vibrato alters the colour, rather than the volume of a note. You can emphasise higher harmonics this way, and Billy Pigg seemed to use this a lot in The Lark in the Clear Air, for example. As for apples and potatoes - in Cologne they have 'Himmel un Aed' - Heaven and Earth, meaning apple kompott and mashed potatoes served together with eg, Bratwurst. There's a place for both - not necessarily far apart. John -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: key question
The 2 extravagances on my big chanter are the high bflat - used a grace up to a high b in Maggie Lauder- And a low A - useful in a few Clough tunes, including the 'big' Lea Rigs, and in the Bonny Lass of Bon Accord. Neither of which I can play adequately yet... It's also useful if I am harmonising, which I am very bad at. Most of what I play is simple chanter stuff, from Peacock etc, but the low end tunes like President Garfield's are wonderful, and well worth the investment. I certainly needed a better chanter than the one I had. Yes, I do rest it on my knee, or the seat between my legs if there's room, but if I'm standing then I hold it near vertical. The weight doesn't distract me as much as the tuning problems on my 7-key one did. Yes, I'm a tune-book addict too. But Rob illustrates a simple feather duster - the 17 keyed ones are musically far more versatile... John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of rob@milecastle27.co.uk Sent: 15 December 2010 10:05 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: key question Morning - for those who hanker after multi-key extended chanters (or are wondering at the minutiae of what is being discussed) here's a little exercise that will demonstrate one of the key differences. First; take a pencil and hold it as you would a chanter - almost no effort is required to hold it and the centre of gravity is between the two hands. Now take a long feather duster with a wooden handle - (3' or 1m will do) (http://www.jbsgroup.ie/catalog/feather-duster-with-long-handle-p-1448.html) Turn it upside down with the feathery bit pointing at the floor (but not resting on it and hold the top of the handle as you would a chanter. The centre of gravity of the instrument is now well below the bottom hand and the natural tendency is for the stick to swing to vertical. A much greater effort is required to main stability in the neutral playing position. Now 'play' a few notes including the two thumbs and the you should be able to feel how the whole stick is trying to jump about. The effect is more pronounced the further you normally hold your chanter from vertical. For a standard length chanter (simple, 7k, or 7+accidentals) the centre of gravity for the chanter is approximately at the centre between the hands. This means that when removing either thumb, the hands are mainly focused on maintaining balance and chanter can be held still with relatively little effort. When you switch to an extended chanter (bottom B or longer) the centre of gravity moves a lot lower - certainly below the back thumb and sometimes below the right hand. When the player removes a thumb, the hands have to do a completely different mechanical job to maintain balance in the chanter. The tendency is for the chanter to move more. Many players of extended chanters choose to anchor the base by planting it on the leg to counteract this. Actually playing the keys is a subject for another day. cheers Rob (http://www.milecastle27.co.uk/rob/) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Pipes with continuo?
Of course a drone instrument has its own bass. But the implicit ground either fits or doesn't fit with the drones. Hence the preference, from Dixon onwards, for grounds based on only 2 chords. More complex grounds don't work so well. But did Dixon play along with a cello or bassoon? Peacock certainly seems to have been playing solo when Bewick knew him. John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York [rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk] Sent: 25 November 2010 17:50 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Pipes with continuo? I was listening recently to a trio playing 17th/18th Cent. divisions on La Folia on the radio, and was struck afresh by how similar are some of the things appearing in the nsp variations. (And yet different.)[Special aside for "Round the Horn" listeners :) ] Divisions on viols or recorders were normally played with at least a bass, and/or a harpsichord or whatever, and our variations/divisions must come out of the same culture in the first place, whether it's later a parallel or a parent-child type development to get to where Peacock's sets arrived. So, given that pipes are generally thought of as a solo instrument, (correct me if not!) do we know at what stage of development the divorce from the continuo or ground bass instrument actually happened? Assuming it did. Do the smallpipes with their variations repertoire first appear having already made the musical separation, or was there any practice of playing them over a ground? (Please note, this *is* on topic!) Best wishes, Richard. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up'
I see Dixon consistently alternates 'low' and 'high' strains - so it is based on something with 2 strains, probably a song tune. 'Adam a Bell' is a Robin Hood style ballad from round Carlisle. John From: Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] Sent: 11 November 2010 09:20 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Gibbons, John; julia@nspipes.co.uk Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up' Thanks folks Another fascinating discussion. I first had this tune as a song from Johnny Handle in the late 60s and then sang it often to my own bairns. As 'deary' was no longer in popular use on Tyneside by then ( I never heard it from parents, grandparents or great grand parents) he changed if for laddy. Most recordings since then (Northumberland for Ever, Cut & Dry Dolly, K. T. et al) have used laddy or laddie. I think the song might pre date the tune variations, it is sung without repeats - A B A B A B A. Hear are the words as I have them they really bring the tune to life for me (I've used the vernacular as it scans better): Cheers Anthony Me Laddy Sits Ower Late Up Refrain: Me laddy sits ower late up Me hinny sits ower late up Me deary sits ower late up Between the pint pot an' the cup 1. He addles three ha'pence a week I t’s nowt but a farthin a day He sits with 'is pipe in 'is cheek An' fuddles 'is money away 1.Me laddy is never the near Me hinny is never the near An' when a shout "laddy come yem" He caals oot agin for more beer 1. Whe Johnny cum yem ti yer bairn Now Johnny cum yem ti yer bairn How Johnny cum yem ti yer bairn With a rye loaf under yer arm --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Julia Say wrote: From: Julia Say Subject: [NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up' To: "nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu" , "Gibbons, John" Date: Wednesday, 10 November, 2010, 9:58 On 10 Nov 2010, Gibbons, John wrote: > >the reprint edition has a typo in the > > penultimate strain, the 1st bar beginning > > > > g/f/|egB egB... > > > > instead of > > > > g/f/|egd egB ... I agree. This looks like a raw typo, and I am fairly certain it was in no way an editorial decision of any sort. Looking at the abc file from which it was generated at the time gives no clue as to which part of this household was responsible, but thanks for finding it. Marked in for future reference. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up'
It's there some of the time, and not others. So not a convention, but sloppy engraving I think. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 10 November 2010 09:15 To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up' BTW, does anyone know whether the omission of the dot after the first quaver in, for example, the last bar of the first strain was a convention of the time (given that there was not much music around in 11/16 time) or just an error? c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up'
Peacock and Dixon agree on this strain - we should perhaps think of a (dissonant) e resolving down on to the d of a G major tonic chord, as in 'All the Night'. John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu Sent: 10 November 2010 09:10 To: Gibbons, John; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: 'My Deary sits ower late up' John Gibbons wrote: >the reprint edition has a typo in the > penultimate strain, the 1st bar beginning > > g/f/|egB egB... > > instead of > > g/f/|egd egB ... > > as in Peacock itself - see FARNE or the facsimile. > > The typo gives an e minor flavour which doesn't belong, I feel. My intuition FWIW and feeling for music tell me John is right. So do my eyes when I see the facsimile. My intellect (or what passes for one) tells me that the motivic skeleton, for want of a better term, is ed-bg. The manuscript preserves motivic integrity. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] 'My Deary sits ower late up'
Dear All, We were playing Peacock 'My Deary sits ower late up' in Oxford at the weekend. One minor thing is that the reprint edition has a typo in the penultimate strain, the 1st bar beginning g/f/|egB egB... instead of g/f/|egd egB ... as in Peacock itself - see FARNE or the facsimile. The typo gives an e minor flavour which doesn't belong, I feel. I was also looking at the other versions: 'My Bonny Bay Mare and I', in Peacock, and 'My Hinny sits ower late up' in Bell (on FARNE). Rook has a different title - 'The Auld Grey Mare and I', [1]http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/musicfiles/rook/rook_pages/168.htm but note for note, otherwise identical to Peacock's Bonny Bay Mare. Of course the oldest pipe version is Dixon's 'Adam a Bell'. Are there any other early versions out there that I have missed? The similarities and differences between these are quite instructive. John -- References 1. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/musicfiles/rook/rook_pages/168.htm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast thou been a' the day, waggin' thy hand?
I think a lot of the Peacock sets are a bit like the Oswald ones, a slow ornate version of the tune and variations. Oswald makes this explicit sometimes by reverting to the basic tune at the end - but sometimes they are self contained, and sometimes have unrelated pieces attached. In Peacock's sets often, as with Peacock Followed the Hen, the first strain, though ornate, could hardly be called a variation on the tune. The basic tune itself at a playable speed for the variation set would not be a jig but a dirge. Similarly, O'er the Border fits the first line (only surviving?) line of the song pretty well, 'All the company's coming and my bonny hinny's amang them' You need more than the odd twiddly bit to turn a statement of the tune into a variation. What Clough did with 'his' Bobby Shaftoe was straightforward and rather different - everyone knows the tune so he only wrote the variations, starting with something not ornamented but altered from the tune,and after he finishes, uses the rest of the page to explain the non-standard drone tuning. But the Peacock set evidently starts with the tune itself. John From: Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 06 November 2010 13:42 To: julia@nspipes.co.uk Cc: Gibbons, John; nSP group Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Where hast thou been a' the day, waggin' thy hand? On Sat, Nov 6, 2010 at 6:11 AM, Julia Say mailto:julia@nspipes.co.uk>> wrote: On 6 Nov 2010, Julia Say wrote: according to my current prejudice ... some variation sets were written down without the "ground" on the front. (Bobby Shaftoe in Clough MSS is like this and Clough says so: I believe Peacock's Felton Lonnen is also, although I don't want to bring that into this discussion since Matt & I have already had one lively episode over it earlier this year). Well, you HAVE brought it into the discussion. I can see what you mean, but by analogy Peacock Follows The Hen, Newmarket Races, Suttors Of Selkirk, Gillan Na Drover must also be variations with the grounds missing since, like Felton Lonnen, they all exist elsewhere in simpler dance versions. Which means that, though I see your point, I don't agree with it as a matter of principle. With the exception of Clough's Bobby, where he is explicit, the variation sets are variation sets and may stand alone. But as a matter of practice I do accept it, including in my own playing, as a discretionary option for structuring a larger performance piece, in cases where it “works” - a subjective aesthetic judgement. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast thou been a' the day, waggin' thy hand?
A more considered version of my effort from last night, deleting some weak strains and rearranging the remainder to echo what happened in Crawhall's 5. X:1 T: Where hast thou been a' the day, waggin' thy hand? M:6/8 R: Air C: After Crawhall K:G |:e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|dg/f/B d2:| e|dgf gdB| eAB c2e|dgf gdB|Ggf d2 e|dgf gdB|eAB c2e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|GB/c/d/B/ GB/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|GB/c/d/B/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2e| GB/c/d/B/ GB/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|Ggf d2e| d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|dcB dcB |eAB c2e|dcB dcB |Ggf d2e| dcB dcB |eAB c2e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| ||:e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ d/c/B/A/B/G/| e/d/c/B/c/A/ c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ d/c/B/A/B/G/| d/e/f/g/f/B/ d2:|| e|d/e/f/g/f g/f/e/d/B| e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e|d/e/f/g/f g/f/e/d/B|d/e/f/g/f d2 e|d/e/f/g/f g/f/e/d/B|e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e|g/f/e/f/g GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|G/A/B/c/d/B/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|e/c/A/c/B c2e|G/A/B/c/d/B/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|d/e/f/g/f d2e| G/A/B/c/d/B/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|e/c/A/c/B c2e|gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ g/f/e/f/g/f/|e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ g/f/e/f/g/e/|d/e/f/g/f d2 e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ g/f/e/f/g/f/|e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e|d/c/B/A/G GA/B/c/d/|dgf d2|| e|dG/A/B dG/A/B|e/c/AB c2e|dG/A/B dG/A/B|d/e/f/g/f d2 e|dG/A/B dG/A/B|e/c/AB c2e|d/c/B/A/G GB/c/d/B/|d/e/f/g/f d2|| Now to feed Julia's version into the tune-o-tron to see what it looks like... Have fun in Edinburgh, John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say [julia@nspipes.co.uk] Sent: 06 November 2010 06:11 To: Matt Seattle; Gibbons, John Cc: nSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast thou been a' the day, waggin' thy hand? On 6 Nov 2010, Julia Say wrote: > I think I'm heading in some of the same directions Here's the draft. I've taken a different approach to John, combining the "theme strains" in a different way, according to my current prejudice that some variation sets were written down without the "ground" on the front. (Bobby Shaftoe in Clough MSS is like this and Clough says so: I believe Peacock's Felton Lonnen is also, although I don't want to bring that into this discussion since Matt & I have already had one lively episode over it earlier this year). I've chosen to use both of the possible bar 2 patterns, one as an A strain, one as a B. Contradicts what I said earlier, but that's what it wanted to do. X:1 T:Where hast thou been all the night?(up writing variations) M:6/8 S:JS E:12 L:1/8 K:G e|dBG B>cd|dgB d2e|dBG B>cd|dgf d2 e|\ dBG B>cd|dgB d2e|dBG B>cd|dgf d2 e||\ dgf gdB|eAB c2 e|dgf gdB|\ E:14 Ggf d2 e|\ dgf gdB|eAB c2 e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2||* L:1/16 E:9 e2|dcBABG B3cd2|d2BcdB d4 e2|dcBABG B3cd2|d2g2f2 d4 e2|\ dcBABG B3cd2|\ E:10 d2BcdB d4e2|dcBABG G2BcdB|d2g2f2 d4||\ e2|d2BcdB g2BcdB|e2ABcB c4 e2|\ E:8 d2BcdB g2BcdB|G2g2f2 d4 e2|\ d2BcdB g2BcdB|e2ABcB c4 e2|dcBABG G2BcdB|d2g2f2 d4||* e2|dcBcde dcBcdB|dcBcdB d4 e2|dcBcde dcBcdB|d2g2f2 d4 e2|\ dcBcde dcBcdB|\ E:9 dcBcdB d4 e2|dcBABG B3cd2|d2g2f2 d4 ef||\ gfefge dcBABG|edcBAB c4 e2|\ E:8 gfefge dcBABG|d2g2f2 d4 ef|\ gfefge dcBABG|edcBAB c4 e2|dcBABG B3cd2|d2g2f2 d4||* E:8 L:1/16 e2|dBGgdB dBGBdg|d2g2B2 d4 e2|dBGgdB dBGBdg|d2g2f2 d4 e2|\ dBGgdB dBGBdg|\ E:10 d2g2B2 d4 e2|dcBABG B3cd2|d2g2f2 d4||\ e2|dgdBdg bgdBGB|e2ABcB c4 e2|\ E:8 dgdBdg bgdBGB|d2g2f2 d4 e2|\ dgdBdg bgdBGB|e2ABcB c4 e2|dcBABG B3cd2|d2g2f2 d4||** > > It needs some editing and probably some bits throwing away. Likewise with mine. With the three (Matt's, John's and mine) in front of me, I'd now settle down and play them - if it wasn't 6am. Later I'll combine the bits I like from all three and come up with a revision sometime - if I wasn't due out to Edinburgh in an hour or so. Julia To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast thou been a' the day, waggin' thy hand?
Here's a working draft of a set based on Crawhall. It needs some editing and probably some bits throwing away. But it's too late to find out what it plays like. Some of his inconsistencies are intentional and he's probably put melodically different tags in for variety. But the harmonically different bar 2 in his first strain (G -> C) has here been changed to (A -> C) to fit in with the next 4 strains. Some of his inconsistencies may be sloppy handwriting, at which I'm an expert myself. What lost song does his title come from I wonder? John X:1 T: Where hast thou been a' the day, waggin' thy hand? M:6/8 R: Air C: 1-5 after Crawhall, edited C: K:G |:e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|dg/f/B d2:| e|dgf gdB| eAB c2e|dgf gdB|Ggf d2 e|dgf gdB|eAB c2e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|GB/c/d/B/ GB/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|GB/c/d/B/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2e| GB/c/d/B/ GB/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|Ggf d2e| d/c/B/c/d/e/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|eAB c2e|gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|dcB dcB |eAB c2e|dcB dcB |Ggf d2e| dcB dcB |eAB c2e|dBG GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|d/c/B/A/B/d/ g/f/e/f/g/f/ |e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e| d/c/B/A/B/d/ g/f/e/f/g/e/ |d/e/f/g/f d2 e|d/c/B/A/B/d/ g/f/e/f/g/e/ |e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e| gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|GB/c/d GB/c/d/e/|e/c/AB c2e|GB/c/d GB/c/d/e/|G/B/d/g/f d2e| GB/c/d GB/c/d/e/|e/c/AB c>eg/e/|gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ d/c/B/A/B/G/| e/d/c/B/c/A/ c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ d/c/B/A/B/G/| d/e/f/g/f d2e| d/c/B/A/B/G/ d/c/B/A/B/G/| e/d/c/B/c/A/ c2e|g/f/e/f/g GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|d/e/f/g/f g/f/e/d/B| e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e|d/e/f/g/f g/f/e/d/B|d/e/f/g/f d2 e|d/e/f/g/f g/f/e/d/B|e/d/c/B/A/B/ c2e|g/f/e/f/g GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| e|G/A/B/c/d/B/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|e/c/A/c/B c2e|G/A/B/c/d/B/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|d/e/f/g/f d2e| G/A/B/c/d/B/ d/c/B/c/d/B/|e/c/A/c/B c2e|gf/e/f/g/ GB/c/d/B/|dgf d2|| From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Matt Seattle [theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: 04 November 2010 16:56 To: julia....@nspipes.co.uk Cc: nSP group; Gibbons, John Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast though been all the night? Before you read on - is anyone besides John Gibbons, Julia Say and myself interested in this? Seriously, please say so, I'd like to know, because if not, we can carry on the discussion privately. If anyone thinks the three of us are crazy, I would like to point out that I have been crazy for longer than them. I have refrained from reading Julia's and John's versions till I made mine public. I was very taken with this tune at the time of the second Bewick edition (1998) and used to play it a lot. I am pleased that (two) others also enjoy it. I note that it received zero attention until Richard York's hurdy-gurdy query, which is a sobering thought regarding the benefits of publication. You may need to add line breaks, I have just pasted my text as is. X:1 T:Where Hast Thou Been All The Night? C:R Reavely ms (strs 1-3) C:M Seattle (strs 5-8) Aug 1998 M:6/8 R:Air K:G e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgB c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] [|:e|dgf dgB|dgB c2e|dgf dgB|dgf d2e| dgf dgB|dgB c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] [|:e|dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dB/c/d/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dgf d2e| dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dB/c/d/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] [|:e|dGe/f/ gGB/c/|dGA/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|dGe/f/ gGB/c/|dgf d2e| dGe/f/ gGB/c/|dGA/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] [|:e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B/A/B/c/d/G/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ c/B/c/d/e/G/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] [|:e|d/G/g/G/f/G/ d/e/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/B/ c/B/c/d/e/G/|d/G/g/G/f/G/ d/e/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/c/ d2e| d/G/g/G/f/G/ d/e/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/B/ c/B/c/d/e/G/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] [|:e|d/B/G/B/d/B/ g/B/G/B/d/B/|d/B/G/B/d/B/ cG/c/e/c/|d/B/G/B/d/B/ g/B/G/B/d/B/|dgf d2e| d/B/G/B/d/B/ g/B/G/B/d/B/|d/B/G/B/d/B/ cG/c/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] [|:e/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ g/f/d/c/B/c/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ =f/e/c/d/e/c/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ g/f/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/c/ d2e| d/G/A/B/c/d/ g/f/d/c/B/c/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ =f/e/c/d/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast thou been all the night?
Julia and All, I also tried using Crawhall's tags, but they are harmonically as well as melodically different from Reavely, so I stuck with the latter to make a unified piece. I prefer it that way, but others might prefer the Crawhall. I agree the FARNE images can be a bit fuzzy, but the illegibilities in Crawhall seem to be mostly his fault... I will happily contribute to the medal fund for a sight of Reavely! Some of Matt's strains are indeed 'typical Seattle' - but they play very well on the NSP, played tight. They definitely don't require an open-ended chanter. Only the last strain with the f nat is at all BP-ish, but it's still playable on NSP. Probably more before the weekend is out, but some thought (and more playing!) is needed first. And some work before I get home John -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say Sent: 05 November 2010 15:13 To: Matt Seattle; Gibbons, John Cc: nSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast though been all the night? On 4 Nov 2010, Gibbons, John wrote: >Reavely's set is fine but a bit short for addicts of long > variation sets. Well, folk seem to be interested in our "workings out", so here goes. I think the three of us would agree that tunes we have from Reavely are generally a very useful source. (for this tune that's Matt's first 3 strains, or the version in the pink Bewick book if folk have that). There is a medal awaiting anyone who can manage to get a complete copy of Reavely to pass around, BTW. It might be a chocolate medal, but researchers would be very grateful, really. I am less familiar with the Crawhall MS as a source: since I wrestled with the Lister MS for the Hill book I rarely use Farne, as the pictures are so poor compared with the originals, and I haven't found time to study all the available originals (one day, maybe - ooh, look, flying pigs!) Considering just Crawhall's strain 1 & 2: X:1 T:Where Hast Thou Been A' The Day, waggin thy hand? S:Crawhall ms (Farne) M:6/8 L:1/16 E:10 K:G e2|d2B2G2 G2BcdB|d2g2B2 d4 f2|d2B2G2 G2BcdB|d2gfB2 d4 f2:|\ d2g2f2 g2d2B2|e2A2B2 c4 e2|d2g2f2 g2d2B2|G2g2f2 d4 f2|\ d2g2f2 g2d2B2|e2A2B2 c4 e2|d2B2G2 G2BcdB|d2g2g2 d4 f2||* I do like bars 2 & 6 in strain 2, which give a totally different effect to the RR version. It would be possible to produce a plausible set based on these strains: it would be different to one based on RR, in my view. What do we know about Crawhall's possible sources? I am less comfortable with his later strains which do seem to introduce the "Newmarket Races" element, particularly that last one. Is it possible he was doing something similar to what we are doing now, and these are his "thoughts" on an extension? Or was he more of a collector, and this has come from person or persons unknown? I also just realised there is a "Lord Randal" in the Clough index but I didn't publish it. This turns out to be on the same page as "Wounded Hussar", and is a basic tune only: X:1 T:Lord Randal S:Clough MSS M:3/4 L:1/4 K:G G B B|B d2|d A B|A G2|d e e|f g2|e e d|d d2|\ d e e|f g g|e d e|d B2|A G B|d D2|G A G|G G2|| Pity, but if it had been a variation set I would have printed it, I guess. But at least we know that the family were aware of the tune, which tells us something. > Your extension is very fine; many thanks for this. There are some nice stretches in this. One strain I note as using arpeggios similar in basic idea to my rushed contribution: other passages are "typical" Seattle. I wonder if some of them play better on border pipes than on nsp: both John & Matt play open ended pipes. I can't, although I have a low A chanter which plays in unison with A ssp, to try and get the effects. > The Reavely-Crawhall-Julia-me collaboration sounds ok, > but Julia's and my strain isn't quite right yet to my ear. It certainly isn't right, and I'd want to live with it and alter things before putting any more up. Judging by Matt's and my previous attempts at collaboration I would not expect the three of us to arrive at the same performance version, anyway. Which doesn't mean we can't have a lot of fun swapping trial strains, learning from each other (and nicking bits!) before arriving at our own pieces. Which will probably themselves develop over time. After all that's what happened in previous generations, it's just that we have the internet and can do it remotely, as well as in person when possible. Now I must do other stuff for a bit.Maybe I'll come back to it later. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Where hast though been all the night?
Give it a go on the gurdy too - It will be interesting to know if this could have been the tune you asked about. Does it lie as well under the fingers on a hurdy-gurdy as on NSP? John From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York [rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk] Sent: 04 November 2010 18:42 To: NSP group Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast though been all the night? Me too! And while between the day job taking up silly hours, and workmen knocking the house about, I haven't had time to more than gloss any of this last part, yes please - go on. I look forward to getting time, and a lack of thunderous hammering, to play this material this w/e - on pipes I promise! - and it's fascinating. And I'm most grateful for the addition to the Gurdy repertoire!! Thank you. Richard. On 04/11/2010 18:01, Richard Shuttleworth wrote: > I second that! > > Richard > - Original Message - From: "Dave S" > To: "Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 1:34 PM > Subject: [NSP] Re: Where hast though been all the night? > > >> Original Message >> >> Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Where hast though been all the night? >> Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 18:33:22 +0100 >> From: Dave S [1] >>To: Matt Seattle [2] >> >> Hey Matt, >> carry on for me -- it's well worth the bandwidth, plus we get to see >> some new works in progress >> ciao >> Dave S >> On 11/4/2010 5:56 PM, Matt Seattle wrote: >> >> Before you read on - is anyone besides John Gibbons, Julia Say and >> myself interested in this? Seriously, please say so, I'd like to know, >> because if not, we can carry on the discussion privately. >> >> If anyone thinks the three of us are crazy, I would like to point out >> that I have been crazy for longer than them. >> >> I have refrained from reading Julia's and John's versions till I made >> mine public. I was very taken with this tune at the time of the second >> Bewick edition (1998) and used to play it a lot. I am pleased that >> (two) others also enjoy it. I note that it received zero attention >> until Richard York's hurdy-gurdy query, which is a sobering thought >> regarding the benefits of publication. >> >> You may need to add line breaks, I have just pasted my text as is. >> >> X:1 >> >> T:Where Hast Thou Been All The Night? >> >> C:R Reavely ms (strs 1-3) >> >> C:M Seattle (strs 5-8) Aug 1998 >> >> M:6/8 >> >> R:Air >> >> K:G >> >> e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgB c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] >> >> [|:e|dgf dgB|dgB c2e|dgf dgB|dgf d2e| >> >> dgf dgB|dgB c2e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] >> >> [|:e|dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dB/c/d/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dgf >> d2e| >> >> dB/c/d/B/ gB/c/d/B/|dB/c/d/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] >> >> [|:e|dGe/f/ gGB/c/|dGA/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|dGe/f/ gGB/c/|dgf d2e| >> >> dGe/f/ gGB/c/|dGA/B/ c3/2d/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B>cd|dgf d2:|] >> >> [|:e|d/c/B/A/B/G/ B/A/B/c/d/G/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ c/B/c/d/e/G/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ >> B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] >> >> [|:e|d/G/g/G/f/G/ d/e/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/B/ c/B/c/d/e/G/|d/G/g/G/f/G/ >> d/e/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/c/ d2e| >> >> d/G/g/G/f/G/ d/e/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/B/ c/B/c/d/e/G/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ >> B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] >> >> [|:e|d/B/G/B/d/B/ g/B/G/B/d/B/|d/B/G/B/d/B/ cG/c/e/c/|d/B/G/B/d/B/ >> g/B/G/B/d/B/|dgf d2e| >> >> d/B/G/B/d/B/ g/B/G/B/d/B/|d/B/G/B/d/B/ cG/c/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ >> B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] >> >> [|:e/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ g/f/d/c/B/c/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ >> =f/e/c/d/e/c/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ >> g/f/d/c/B/c/|d/G/g/f/d/c/ d2e| >> >> d/G/A/B/c/d/ g/f/d/c/B/c/|d/G/A/B/c/d/ =f/e/c/d/e/c/|d/c/B/A/B/G/ >> B/A/B/c/d/G/|dgf d2:|] >> >> -- >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - [4]www.avg.com >> Version: 9.0.864 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3236 - Release Date: >> 11/03/10 20:34:0 >> 0 >> >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. mailto:david...@pt.lu >> 2. mailto:theborderpi...@googlemail.com >> 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html >> 4. http://www.avg.com/ >> >> > > >
