Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Wolfgang Schuster
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Mojca Miklavec
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
 
   Oh? I thought uc encoding would magically enhance my type1 fonts with
   full unicode range...
   ;-)

 I almost forgot ... to be honest, I wanted to say: LuaTeX does
 exactly that, but then I have remembered that you have explicitely
 asked not to mention any LuaTeX benefits to you any more (at least
 until next TeX Live comes out) ... :)

This is indeed possible with LuaTeX because you could create a virtual font
and use any other character from another font with more characters but there
is no font with the complete unicode range, unicode support more signs
as you could use in one OpenType/TrueType font.

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm
2008/4/8, Wolfgang Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Mojca Miklavec
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
 Oh? I thought uc encoding would magically enhance my type1 fonts with
 full unicode range...
 ;-)
   I almost forgot ... to be honest, I wanted to say: LuaTeX does
   exactly that, but then I have remembered that you have explicitely
   asked not to mention any LuaTeX benefits to you any more (at least
   until next TeX Live comes out) ... :)
 This is indeed possible with LuaTeX because you could create a virtual font
  and use any other character from another font with more characters but there
  is no font with the complete unicode range, unicode support more signs
  as you could use in one OpenType/TrueType font.

Please, don't take me dumber than I am. There's a smiley after my naive remark.

It's great if luaTeX can access all available glyphs of a font (and
that's really another reason to switch), and I guess it will also
continue to combine accents and base characters for undefined glyphs,
but of course it can't invent new glyphs.

Most good Type1 fonts contain the range of Latin-1 and Mac-Roman, and
if I'll be able to access that, it's great.

I already started to combine several freeware fonts into OpenType
(i.e. if there are e.g. Western, CE and alternate/expert fonts). But I
guess that's only one of my few projects that stall until they're
needed...

Regarding luaTeX: Even if I can just include rsync into my daily
update script to stay up-to-date on binaries (thanks for pointing that
out!), I get a bad feeling if I see lots of threads on this list that
show that luaTeX seems to have still some basic problems... On the
other hand when I started using ConTeXt I did it for some features
(grid setting!) even though it was a very much moving target.

Greetlings, Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Wolfgang Schuster
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Henning Hraban Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 2008/4/8, Wolfgang Schuster [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

  On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 12:50 AM, Mojca Miklavec
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
  Oh? I thought uc encoding would magically enhance my type1 fonts with
  full unicode range...
  ;-)
I almost forgot ... to be honest, I wanted to say: LuaTeX does
exactly that, but then I have remembered that you have explicitely
asked not to mention any LuaTeX benefits to you any more (at least
until next TeX Live comes out) ... :)
  This is indeed possible with LuaTeX because you could create a virtual font
   and use any other character from another font with more characters but 
  there
   is no font with the complete unicode range, unicode support more signs
   as you could use in one OpenType/TrueType font.

 Please, don't take me dumber than I am. There's a smiley after my naive 
 remark.

I never meant this :-(

 It's great if luaTeX can access all available glyphs of a font (and
 that's really another reason to switch), and I guess it will also
 continue to combine accents and base characters for undefined glyphs,
 but of course it can't invent new glyphs.

But you could use them from another font as fallback, not the best
idea but possible. And no, you can't access all glyphs from a font,
it is easy to to print the vertical forms from CJK punctuation with XeTeX
but the LuaTeX output is nonsense.

 Most good Type1 fonts contain the range of Latin-1 and Mac-Roman, and
 if I'll be able to access that, it's great.

 I already started to combine several freeware fonts into OpenType
 (i.e. if there are e.g. Western, CE and alternate/expert fonts). But I
 guess that's only one of my few projects that stall until they're
 needed...

 Regarding luaTeX: Even if I can just include rsync into my daily
 update script to stay up-to-date on binaries (thanks for pointing that
 out!), I get a bad feeling if I see lots of threads on this list that
 show that luaTeX seems to have still some basic problems... On the
 other hand when I started using ConTeXt I did it for some features
 (grid setting!) even though it was a very much moving target.

Wolfgang

PS: I used your manuals to start with ConTeXt and never thought of you
as a dumb user and this wasn't meant to critize you, the only thing I wanted
to say it is still possible not not only a joke.
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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Hans Hagen
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
  Oh? I thought uc encoding would magically enhance my type1 fonts with
  full unicode range...
  ;-)
 
 I almost forgot ... to be honest, I wanted to say: LuaTeX does
 exactly that, but then I have remembered that you have explicitely
 asked not to mention any LuaTeX benefits to you any more (at least
 until next TeX Live comes out) ... :)

actually, if you load a type one font (assuming that the afm is 
present), you can use features like compose=yes which will try to create 
missing characters using virtual font technology

(mkiv tries to avoid using tfm files, although for math we still need them)

Hans



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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Hans Hagen
Mojca Miklavec wrote:
 Hello Hraban,
 
 thanks for pointing this out.
 
 To Hans: the \typescriptthree indeed needs to go out of those
 definitions (line 300 in type-otf).

hm, can you post the line? i have this

\starttypescript [serif] [adventor,bonum,cursor,heros,pagella,schola,termes]

 To Hraban: encoding=uc has *zero* effect. To be honest - I doubt that
 you will be able to extract any more than (theoretical limit of) 256
 glyphs from the Type1 font with XeTeX - character slots and font
 glyphs are in one-to-one correlation, so I doubt that you can access
 the glyphs outside of those 256 slots (unless you make tfm  map
 files, but that's probably the reason why one wants to use XeTeX - to
 get rid of that encoding mess). So: I guess that Latin-1 works, but
 encoding=uc is ignored anyway.

in mkiv no encodings are used, although when an encoding is specicified, 
some trickery takes place, for instance: texnansi-whatever becomes 
whatever and so, i.e. the encoding is removed and internally fonts are 
remapped onto unicode.

 type-xtx contains quite some uc leftovers, but I'm not sure if
 fixing them is a wise idea or not (backward compatibility).

i dunno either ... this may date from the time that not that many open 
type fonts were around, so we may consider dropping it (i.e. we kind of 
assume that xetex users use open type)

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Mojca Miklavec
On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Hans Hagen wrote:
 Mojca Miklavec wrote:
   Hello Hraban,
  
   thanks for pointing this out.
  
   To Hans: the \typescriptthree indeed needs to go out of those
   definitions (line 300 in type-otf).

  hm, can you post the line? i have this

300-311 (301-310), this are the fixed ones, but probably broken across lines:
\definefontsynonym [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Regular]
 [file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-regular]
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Italic]
 [file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-italic]
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Bold]
 [file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-bold]
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym
[\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-BoldItalic]
[file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-bolditalic]
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Caps]
 [file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-regular]
[features=oldstyle]
\definefontsynonym
[\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-ItalicCaps]
[file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-italic]
[features=oldstyle]
\definefontsynonym [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-BoldCaps]
 [file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-bold]
[features=oldstyle]
\definefontsynonym
[\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-BoldItalicCaps]
[file:texgyre\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-bolditalic]
[features=oldstyle]
\definefontsynonym [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Slanted]
 [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Italic]
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym
[\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-BoldSlanted]
[\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-BoldItalic]
[features=default]

   type-xtx contains quite some uc leftovers, but I'm not sure if
   fixing them is a wise idea or not (backward compatibility).

  i dunno either ... this may date from the time that not that many open
  type fonts were around, so we may consider dropping it (i.e. we kind of
  assume that xetex users use open type)

There are definitions like this one:

\starttypescript[sans][arial][uc]
\definefontsynonym[Arial]  [name:Arial][features=default]
\definefontsynonym[ArialItalic][name:Arial Italic] [features=default]
\definefontsynonym[ArialBold]  [name:Arial Bold]   [features=default]
\definefontsynonym[ArialBoldItalic][name:Arial Bold Italic][features=default]
\stoptypescript

It just predefines some (mostly Mac) typescripts. Some of those
typescripts might be usable in luaTeX as well. I have no idea how many
people have ever used
 \usetypescript[arial][uc]
[uc] could be removed, but if these lines are deleted, the documents
will be broken (which is probably true for quite some XeTeX documents
from past which used the old notation). And on the other hand, the
definitions could be made more generic (to be usable in LuaTeX as
well).

Mojca

To Hraban: oh, I did not understand you joke at first :-) Now I see
what you were trying to say with extending the font to the full
unicode range :-) And sure enough - LuaTeX doesn't do that either.

What I meant was - in afm files you have:

C 235 ; WX 355 ; N ordmasculine ; B 38 369 317 710 ;
C 241 ; WX 791 ; N ae ; B 45 -10 741 460 ;
C 245 ; WX 283 ; N dotlessi ; B 75 -10 263 450 ;
C 248 ; WX 328 ; N lslash ; B 20 -10 308 700 ;
C 249 ; WX 497 ; N oslash ; B 55 -39 442 489 ;
C 250 ; WX 792 ; N oe ; B 55 -10 742 460 ;
C 251 ; WX 488 ; N germandbls ; B 80 -10 448 710 ;
C -1 ; WX 620 ; N afii10017 ; B 10 0 610 700 ;
C -1 ; WX 626 ; N afii10020 ; B 100 0 576 700 ;
C -1 ; WX 626 ; N afii10050 ; B 100 0 576 770 ;
C -1 ; WX 685 ; N afii10018 ; B 100 -10 625 700 ;
C -1 ; WX 685 ; N afii10046 ; B 100 -10 625 700 ;
C -1 ; WX 745 ; N afii10044 ; B 10 -10 685 700 ;
C -1 ; WX 957 ; N afii10045 ; B 100 -10 857 700 ;
C -1 ; WX 685 ; N afii10019 ; B 100 -10 625 710 ;
C -1 ; WX 626 ; N afii10052 ; B 100 0 576 880 ;

And there is probably no way for XeTeX to access afiiX, whatever
that is, while LuaTeX tries to guess the unicode point from the glyph
name and uses that one when available.
But - I will stop talking about LuaTeX, as I have promised you already
in the last email.
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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Hans Hagen
Mojca Miklavec wrote:

 300-311 (301-310), this are the fixed ones, but probably broken across lines:

ok, fixed

 To Hraban: oh, I did not understand you joke at first :-) Now I see
 what you were trying to say with extending the font to the full
 unicode range :-) And sure enough - LuaTeX doesn't do that either.

at some point we can start thinking of defining virtual font collections

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-08 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm
Am 2008-04-08 um 13:41 schrieb Hans Hagen:

 To Hraban: oh, I did not understand you joke at first :-) Now I see
 what you were trying to say with extending the font to the full
 unicode range :-) And sure enough - LuaTeX doesn't do that either.

Sorry, I should know since a few years that my jokes aren't  
understandable... ;-)
(I tend to joke with my father about details of grammar and  
constantly quote lyrics of unknown songs...)

 at some point we can start thinking of defining virtual font  
 collections

Would be cool!

I'm working occasionally on a songbook that contains a Russian song,  
and I'd like to print the original text in cyrillic (even if I can  
hardly read it).
I've everything in UTF-8, so it would be great if ConTeXt could  
change the font automatically or language-dependent.

I still didn't try anything with that, though, maybe it's easy - the  
base font is Century Schoolbook (because that's LilyPond's default  
font and it works well for a songbook), and if I use XeTeX/luaTeX  
with TeXGyre Schola, it should just work. (Or don't you think?)

Ok, maybe I don't even need virtual font collections...


Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-07 Thread Mojca Miklavec
Hello Hraban,

thanks for pointing this out.

To Hans: the \typescriptthree indeed needs to go out of those
definitions (line 300 in type-otf).

To Hraban: encoding=uc has *zero* effect. To be honest - I doubt that
you will be able to extract any more than (theoretical limit of) 256
glyphs from the Type1 font with XeTeX - character slots and font
glyphs are in one-to-one correlation, so I doubt that you can access
the glyphs outside of those 256 slots (unless you make tfm  map
files, but that's probably the reason why one wants to use XeTeX - to
get rid of that encoding mess). So: I guess that Latin-1 works, but
encoding=uc is ignored anyway.

type-xtx contains quite some uc leftovers, but I'm not sure if
fixing them is a wise idea or not (backward compatibility).

Mojca


On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 2:37 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:
 Am 2008-04-06 um 13:35 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:

  (2)
   This seems wrong to me (i.e. I don't understand it):
  
   \starttypescript [serif]
   [adventor,bonum,cursor,heros,pagella,schola,termes]
 \definefontsynonym
   [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Regular]
   [file:texgyre\typescriptthree\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-
   regular]
   [features=default]

  Works for me if I just leave out \typescriptthree !

  Here's my working setup, including a PostScript font:

  \usetypescriptfile  [type-otf2] % with change mentioned above
  \usetypescript  [schoolbook][uc]

  \starttypescript[sans]  [urw-grotesk]
 % PostScript name /  file name (in texmf tree) / instead of an 
 encoding
 \definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-LighNarr]  [file:u004242t]
  [features=default]
 \definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-MediNarr]  [file:u004244t]
  [features=default]
 \definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-LighNarrObli]  
 [file:u004262t]
  [features=default]
 \definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-MediNarrObli]  
 [file:u004264t]
  [features=default]
  \stoptypescript

  \starttypescript[sans]  [urw-grotesk]   %[name]
 \definefontsynonym  [Sans]  [URWGroteskT-LighNarr]
 \definefontsynonym  [SansItalic][URWGroteskT-LighNarrObli]
 \definefontsynonym  [SansBold]  [URWGroteskT-MediNarr]
 \definefontsynonym  [SansBoldItalic][URWGroteskT-MediNarrObli]
 \definefontsynonym  [SansSlanted]   [SansItalic]
 \definefontsynonym  [SansBoldSlanted]   [SansBoldItalic]
  \stoptypescript

  \starttypescript[fiee]  [mix]
 \definetypeface [mix]   [rm][serif] [schola][default] 
   %[encoding=
  \defaultencoding]
 \definetypeface [mix]   [ss][sans]  [urw-grotesk]   [default] 
   [encoding=uc]
  \stoptypescript
  \usetypescript  [fiee][mix]
  \setupbodyfont  [mix,rm,8pt]
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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-07 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm
Am 2008-04-07 um 12:58 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:
 To Hraban: encoding=uc has *zero* effect. To be honest - I doubt that
 you will be able to extract any more than (theoretical limit of) 256
 glyphs from the Type1 font with XeTeX - character slots and font
 glyphs are in one-to-one correlation, so I doubt that you can access
 the glyphs outside of those 256 slots (unless you make tfm  map
 files, but that's probably the reason why one wants to use XeTeX - to
 get rid of that encoding mess). So: I guess that Latin-1 works, but
 encoding=uc is ignored anyway.

Oh? I thought uc encoding would magically enhance my type1 fonts with  
full unicode range...
;-)

Thanks for the clarification - I wasn't sure if I'd need uc, but  
since it worked this way, I left it there.


Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-07 Thread Mojca Miklavec
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Am 2008-04-07 um 12:58 schrieb Mojca Miklavec:

  To Hraban: encoding=uc has *zero* effect. To be honest - I doubt that
   you will be able to extract any more than (theoretical limit of) 256
   glyphs from the Type1 font with XeTeX - character slots and font
   glyphs are in one-to-one correlation, so I doubt that you can access
   the glyphs outside of those 256 slots (unless you make tfm  map
   files, but that's probably the reason why one wants to use XeTeX - to
   get rid of that encoding mess). So: I guess that Latin-1 works, but
   encoding=uc is ignored anyway.

  Oh? I thought uc encoding would magically enhance my type1 fonts with
  full unicode range...
  ;-)

It just used to map \eacute (and similar) to the proper Unicode glyph.
With pdfTeX that mapping depends on font encoding, so it has to be
specified. With XeTeX and LuaTeX unicode encoding is now applied
automatically. That's much better since now even
\font\a=low-level-font-loading \a \eacute works OK, which wasn't the
case one year ago.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-07 Thread Mojca Miklavec
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 8:22 PM, Henning Hraban Ramm wrote:

  Oh? I thought uc encoding would magically enhance my type1 fonts with
  full unicode range...
  ;-)

I almost forgot ... to be honest, I wanted to say: LuaTeX does
exactly that, but then I have remembered that you have explicitely
asked not to mention any LuaTeX benefits to you any more (at least
until next TeX Live comes out) ... :)

Mojca

PS: I didn't mean it seriously with internet connection in Bohinj -
that's why there were smilies next to the remark :)
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[NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-06 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm
(1)
Shouldn't these typescripts get splitted?:

from
\starttypescript [serif]  
[adventor,bonum,cursor,heros,pagella,schola,termes]

to
\starttypescript [serif] [bonum,pagella,schola,termes]
\starttypescript [sans] [adventor,heros]
\starttypescript [mono] [cursor]
plus
\starttypescript [calligraphy] [chorus]


and from
\starttypescript [serif] [pagella,termes,bonum,schola,chorus] [name]

to
\starttypescript [serif] [pagella,termes,bonum,schola] [name]
\starttypescript [calligraphy] [chorus] [name]


(2)
This seems wrong to me (i.e. I don't understand it):

\starttypescript [serif]  
[adventor,bonum,cursor,heros,pagella,schola,termes]
\definefontsynonym
[\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Regular]
[file:texgyre\typescriptthree\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}- 
regular]
[features=default]

That defines e.g. TeXGyrePagella-Regular -- file:texgyre???pagella- 
regular

Why is there \typescriptthree without a third parameter of the  
typescript?

And what file means file:texgyre\typescriptthree?
I thought, file: should be followed by a proper filename like {n: 
\typescripttwo}-Regular?
Are the first and second parameters swapped?

(3)
I get (maybe from that):
kpathsea: Illegal fontname `texgyrename,default,ec,specialschola- 
regular': contains ','! Font \*gyr- 
mix12ptrmtfrm*:=texgyrename,default,ec,specialschola-regular at  
12.0pt not loadable: Metric (TFM) file or installed font not found.

This is my setup:

\usetypescriptfile  [type-otf]
\usetypescriptfile  [type-urw]
\starttypescript[fiee]  [gyr-mix]   
\definetypeface [gyr-mix]   [rm][serif] [schola]
[default]   
\definetypeface [gyr-mix]   [ss][sans]  [urw-grotesk-narrow]
[default]
[encoding=ec]
\stoptypescript
\usetypescript  [fiee][gyr-mix]
\setupbodyfont  [gyr-mix,rm,8pt]

Where's my error?


Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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Re: [NTG-context] analyzing type-otf.tex

2008-04-06 Thread Henning Hraban Ramm
Am 2008-04-06 um 13:35 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:
 (2)
 This seems wrong to me (i.e. I don't understand it):

 \starttypescript [serif]
 [adventor,bonum,cursor,heros,pagella,schola,termes]
   \definefontsynonym
 [\typescriptprefix{n:\typescripttwo}-Regular]
 [file:texgyre\typescriptthree\typescriptprefix{f:\typescripttwo}-
 regular]
 [features=default]

Works for me if I just leave out \typescriptthree !

Here's my working setup, including a PostScript font:

\usetypescriptfile  [type-otf2] % with change mentioned above
\usetypescript  [schoolbook][uc]

\starttypescript[sans]  [urw-grotesk]
% PostScript name /  file name (in texmf tree) / instead of an encoding
\definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-LighNarr]  [file:u004242t]  
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-MediNarr]  [file:u004244t]  
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-LighNarrObli]  [file:u004262t] 
 
[features=default]
\definefontsynonym  [URWGroteskT-MediNarrObli]  [file:u004264t] 
 
[features=default]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[sans]  [urw-grotesk]   %[name]
\definefontsynonym  [Sans]  [URWGroteskT-LighNarr]
\definefontsynonym  [SansItalic][URWGroteskT-LighNarrObli]
\definefontsynonym  [SansBold]  [URWGroteskT-MediNarr]
\definefontsynonym  [SansBoldItalic][URWGroteskT-MediNarrObli]
\definefontsynonym  [SansSlanted]   [SansItalic]
\definefontsynonym  [SansBoldSlanted]   [SansBoldItalic]
\stoptypescript

\starttypescript[fiee]  [mix]
\definetypeface [mix]   [rm][serif] [schola][default]   
%[encoding= 
\defaultencoding]
\definetypeface [mix]   [ss][sans]  [urw-grotesk]   [default]   
[encoding=uc]
\stoptypescript
\usetypescript  [fiee][mix]
\setupbodyfont  [mix,rm,8pt]



Greetlings from Lake Constance!
Hraban
---
http://www.fiee.net/texnique/
http://wiki.contextgarden.net
https://www.cacert.org (I'm an assurer)

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