Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-10 Thread Rob Styles
In my experience constraining the rdf+XML syntax does work well in
making the rdf more palatable for those wanting XML. However, also
from real experience, suggesting consumers use XML tools does the
consumer a dis-service.

Rdf is a graph, a web of relationships, which is what makes it less
constraining than XML. XML only represents tree structures, a subset
of graphs. Consuming the graph, and understanding it, gives you a
model to work with that is far more useful and flexible.

Rob Styles
Talis

On 9 Jun 2010, at 21:45, Erik Hetzner ehetz...@gmail.com wrote:

 At Wed, 09 Jun 2010 13:12:56 -0600,
 Lee Passey wrote:

 On 6/8/2010 8:23 PM, Erik Hetzner wrote:

 [snip]

 In my opinion, RDF is more constraining than XML, because it forces
 the designer to think clearly about the underlying model, rather
 than
 presenting a lot of different metadata fields.

 Then I will leave it to you to explain to the W3C how the RDF
 specification failed to meet the design goal of represent[ing]
 information in a minimally constraining, flexible way.

 I’ll see what I can do. :)

 […]

 And if the graph doesn't have a schema I understand, I'm hosed;
 thus the
 value of constraints. If I know OL will always represent a person as
 foaf:person, then I can code for that. But if OL sometimes
 represents a
 person as foaf:person, and sometimes as dcterms:agent, and
 sometimes as
 rdg2:person, and sometimes as rdf:description and sometimes using
 some
 new vocabulary that has not yet been invented that a human being
 could
 recognize as conveying personness but not a computer algorithm,
 then I
 don't know how to deal with that. Of course I can ignore what I don't
 understand, but what happens if there is nothing left when I do?

 I agree that in order to use the data, one needs to be able to
 understand the vocabulary that is used.

 The more
 the merrier. If OL outputs FOAF  RDA,  it conforms to the
 semantics
 of both, great. If I know what FOAF is, I can use that, but if I
 only
 understand RDA, I can use that instead, and not worry about the
 differences between the semantics of RDF  FOAF, because OL has done
 that for me.

 Surely you're not suggesting that OL create RDF records that contain
 every possible representation of its data in every possible
 vocabulary...

 Sure, if they can do it. Why not?

 I really don’t see the problem. A graph can be trimmed
 wherever you like.

 The problem is never a surfeit of data, it is always a paucity
 thereof.

 Agreed, which is why I said above that the more vocabularies
 supported, the better, all other things being equal.

 For the record, XSLT is not very useful for dealing with RDF+XML,
 unless one constrains (!) the syntax of RDF+XML.

 Precisely my point. Thus, OL should constrain its RDF/XML syntax to a
 limited vocabulary, and rely on XSLT to generate unconstrained
 vocabularies as needed, as the reverse is not possible. In setting
 those
 limits, it should start by trying to determine which vocabulary
 (ies) are
 most useful to its consumers and potential consumers. This is, so
 far,
 the issue that no one has addressed directly.

 Processing RDF+XML with XSLT is not made easier by constraining the
 RDF vocabularies used, but by constraining the syntax of RDF+XML. See,
 e.g., the RSS 1.0 spec.

 best, Erik
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-09 Thread Karen Coyle
Quoting Erik Hetzner ehetz...@gmail.com:

 At Tue, 08 Jun 2010 11:53:45 -0700,


 I?m not sure the distinction here between URI and URL. I think the RDF
 Ross is describing is:

   M Mahy foaf:page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Mahy .
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Mahy rdfs:label Your   
 label here. .

 foaf:page seems to mean any page ?about? a person, which seems vague
 enough. :)

OK, I read through the foaf docs and some examples. page is defined as  
a URI for a page. So as long as the general assumption is that this  
URI is one you want to present as clickable, it works for me. Not  
all http URIs are URLs, but it seems that foaf:page is asserting that  
this one is.

kc



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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-09 Thread Karen Coyle
Quoting Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com:


 For the wikipedia link, it may also be appropriate to use
 foaf:isPrimaryTopicOf rather than foaf:page, although there may not be
 enough confidence in the integrity of the data to make that
 assumption.

That's an interesting distinction. I do like isPri... for the  
wikipedia link, and page for the others. Thanks!

kc

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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-09 Thread Lee Passey
On 6/8/2010 8:23 PM, Erik Hetzner wrote:

[snip]

 In my opinion, RDF is more constraining than XML, because it forces
 the designer to think clearly about the underlying model, rather than
 presenting a lot of different metadata fields.

Then I will leave it to you to explain to the W3C how the RDF 
specification failed to meet the design goal of represent[ing] 
information in a minimally constraining, flexible way.

[snip]

 If I read [3] correctly, while the “JSON API” is deprecated, the JSON
 format of the “RESTful API” is not. So perhaps this conversation will
 go nowhere. :)

I stand corrected. I had read the name JSON API as meaning an API to 
return data in JSON format. Upon closer examination, I can now see that 
it means an API to perform ad hoc queries against the OL data set where 
the query is encoded in JSON format. The new RESTful API, by contrast, 
means an API to perform ad hoc queries against the OL data set where 
the query is encoded as a standard HTTP query string. The entire data 
record is still available in the native JSON format.

My interest in OL RDF is dwindling rapidly.

[snip]

 As I see it, you can just ignore what you don’t want. As long as the
 graph has the schema that you understand, you can use that.

And if the graph doesn't have a schema I understand, I'm hosed; thus the 
value of constraints. If I know OL will always represent a person as 
foaf:person, then I can code for that. But if OL sometimes represents a 
person as foaf:person, and sometimes as dcterms:agent, and sometimes as 
rdg2:person, and sometimes as rdf:description and sometimes using some 
new vocabulary that has not yet been invented that a human being could 
recognize as conveying personness but not a computer algorithm, then I 
don't know how to deal with that. Of course I can ignore what I don't 
understand, but what happens if there is nothing left when I do?

 The more
 the merrier. If OL outputs FOAF  RDA,  it conforms to the semantics
 of both, great. If I know what FOAF is, I can use that, but if I only
 understand RDA, I can use that instead, and not worry about the
 differences between the semantics of RDF  FOAF, because OL has done
 that for me.

Surely you're not suggesting that OL create RDF records that contain 
every possible representation of its data in every possible vocabulary...

 I really don’t see the problem. A graph can be trimmed
 wherever you like.

The problem is never a surfeit of data, it is always a paucity thereof.

 For the record, XSLT is not very useful for dealing with RDF+XML,
 unless one constrains (!) the syntax of RDF+XML.

Precisely my point. Thus, OL should constrain its RDF/XML syntax to a 
limited vocabulary, and rely on XSLT to generate unconstrained 
vocabularies as needed, as the reverse is not possible. In setting those 
limits, it should start by trying to determine which vocabulary(ies) are 
most useful to its consumers and potential consumers. This is, so far, 
the issue that no one has addressed directly.

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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-08 Thread Karen Coyle
Quoting Ross Singer rossfsin...@gmail.com:



 So, for:
 http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL31800A.rdf

 You could have something like looks more like:

I'm assuming this is a response to the 2nd draft RDF that I send out,  
given the similarities


 rdf:RDF
   xmlns:rdf='http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'
   xmlns:rdfs='http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#'
   xmlns:bibo='http://purl.org/ontology/bibo/'
   xmlns:rdg2='http://RDVocab.info/elementsG2/'
   xmlns:dcterms='http://purl.org/dc/terms/'
   xmlns:foaf='http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/'
   xmlns:owl='http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#'
   xmlns:ov='http://open.vocab.org/terms/'

 foaf:Person rdf:about=http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL31800A;
 foaf:nameMargaret Mahy/foaf:name
 rdg2:variantNameForThePersonMahy,
 Margaret/rdg2:variantNameForThePerson
 rdg2:biographicalInformationMargaret Mahy ONZ (born in
 Whakatane, New Zealand on 21 March 1936) is a well-known New Zealand
 author of children#39;s and young adult books. While the plots of
 many of her books have strong supernatural elements, her writing
 concentrates on the themes of human relationships and growing up.

 Her books The Haunting and The Changeover: A Supernatural Romance both
 received the Carnegie Medal of the British Library Association. She
 has written a little less than 50 novels, including the recent Alchemy
 in 2002. Among her children#39;s books, A Lion in the Meadow and The
 Seven Chinese Brothers and The Man Whose Mother was a Pirate are
 considered national classics./rdg2:biographicalInformation
 rdg2:dateOfBirth21 March 1936/rdg2:dateOfBirth
 foaf:page   
 resource=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Mahy; /
 owl:sameAs   
 resource=http://dbpedia.org/resource/Margaret_Mahy; /


The reason that I used ol:link instead of foaf:page was George's  
desire that we include the link text. (ol:link has the structure  
link/url, link/text - http://openlibrary.org/type/link). I like this  
use of foaf:page -- can we get a label into it in some way so that we  
pick up the link text?


 dcterms:identifier/authors/OL31800A/dcterms:identifier

We modified this one to be http://openlibrary.org/authors...etc;.  
Does that mean that you don't need the provenance statement? (Was it  
intended to modify identifier?)

kc

 dcterms:provenance
 resource=http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL31800A#meta; /


 /foaf:Person

dcterms:ProvenanceStatement
 about=http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL31800A#meta;
dcterms:modified2010-04-12 12:42:10.448987/dcterms:modified
dcterms:created2008-04-01T03:28:50.625462/dcterms:created
foaf:page
 resource=http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL31800A/Margaret_Mahy?m=history;
 /
ov:versionnumber5/ov:versionnumber
/dcterms:ProvenanceStatement
 /rdf:RDF

 Just as a strawman.

 -Ross.

 On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Lee Passey l...@novomail.net wrote:
 On 6/7/2010 12:12 PM, Ed Summers wrote:

 On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Lee Passeyl...@novomail.net  wrote:
 So before any questions about how best to represent a person in RDF can
 be addressed, you should try to find out who will be consuming the data,
 and what their expectations are.

 I think this is an important point, and is largely why I'm in favor of
 leveraging existing vocabularies for people (foaf) in the rdf views,
 so that ol authors fit into the existing ecosystem of rdf data about
 people, some of whom happen to have written books.

 Can you give us a better description of this ecosystem? What existing,
 or in-development, applications would consume OL data? What would they
 use it for? It seems to me that the proposed preference for FOAF, with
 its accompanying incompleteness, is mostly speculative at this point;
 that is, /if/ OL provided data using the FOAF vocabulary, and /if/
 future applications had a use for OL data /then/ something useful could
 happen. But what if the predicates never materialize?

 Thus the question, what applications currently exist or are likely to
 exist imminently, that desire to consume OL data, and what are their
 requirements? Until this gating question is answered, at least
 provisionally, any attempts to decide on an RDF vocabulary is premature.
 On the other hand, if there are no current or imminent applications,
 then it seems to me the answers to the vocabulary selection question
 are: 1. pick anything you want, because no one will be using it anyway,
 and 2. why are you wasting developer time on an effort for which there
 is no demand?

 On the third hand, XSLT is a powerful enough scripting language that
 transformations from any arbitrary XML vocabulary, even non-RDF
 vocabularies, to any other XML vocabulary, are trivial. Simply pick or
 invent an XML vocabulary that encodes all of the data stored in the OL
 record sets. When someone comes to you and asks for a different transfer
 encoding, simply hand him/her the XSLT 

Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-07 Thread Ed Summers
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Lee Passey l...@novomail.net wrote:
 So before any questions about how best to represent a person in RDF can
 be addressed, you should try to find out who will be consuming the data,
 and what their expectations are.

I think this is an important point, and is largely why I'm in favor of
leveraging existing vocabularies for people (foaf) in the rdf views,
so that ol authors fit into the existing ecosystem of rdf data about
people, some of whom happen to have written books.

//Ed
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-07 Thread Karen Coyle
Quoting Ed Summers e...@pobox.com:

 On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Lee Passey l...@novomail.net wrote:
 So before any questions about how best to represent a person in RDF can
 be addressed, you should try to find out who will be consuming the data,
 and what their expectations are.

 I think this is an important point, and is largely why I'm in favor of
 leveraging existing vocabularies for people (foaf) in the rdf views,
 so that ol authors fit into the existing ecosystem of rdf data about
 people, some of whom happen to have written books.

In fact, if you look at the latest version of the rdf author record I  
sent out earlier today, I used foaf in every place possible, since  
that is the preferred form that has been expressed. Unfortunately,  
that doesn't result in a large number of foaf elements in the record,  
and if I have missed any that could be used, please let me know.

kc


 //Ed
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-02 Thread Erik Hetzner
At Wed, 2 Jun 2010 11:09:02 +0530,
Anand Chitipothu wrote:


 On 02-Jun-10, at 7:34 AM, Ed Summers wrote:

  Just another quick update to let you know I emailed foaf-dev for
  advice:
 
   http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2010-June/
  010253.html
 
  To start hacking on the code I'd need to get a develop instance up and
  running which I imagine could take some time. Unfortunately I've got a
  few other high priority things going on, but I would like to work on
  this some. Do the openlibrary tech folks have a skype call or anything
  I could sit in on?

 Open Library generates the RDF using a template. If you can workout a
 sample RDF, then I can make that into a template. Setting up a dev
 instance is not an easy thing to do as of now.

 Right now, the template for rendering RDF for editions is at:
 http://openlibrary.org/upstream/templates/type/edition/rdf.tmpl

Wonderful, thank you. I will submit patches against these.

I believe this is the template used for authors  for works:

  http://openlibrary.org/upstream/templates/default_rdf.tmpl

Is there a sandbox where we can try out templates?

Thanks,
Erik


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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-02 Thread Karen Coyle

To make things a big more concrete:

http://kcoyle.net/temp/comparePersonVocabs.pdf

is my comparison between BIO, FOAF, RDA, and the OL author type. I  
underlined fields that I though could be used, but don't consider this  
definitive.

kc
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-02 Thread Ed Summers
On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net wrote:
 Have you tried an Edition in RDF? The Work and Author ones are just stubs
 that Anand created.

 Here's an Edition rdf:
 http://openlibrary.org/books/OL6026352M.rdf

No, I hadn't seen that yet! That is a perfect example of what the rdf
data model allows you to do. I stand corrected...

//Ed
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-01 Thread Anand Chitipothu

On 01-Jun-10, at 7:28 PM, Ed Summers wrote:

 Kudos for keeping the linkeddata rdf views in the new version of
 OpenLibrary. I just noticed that the application/rdf+xml views seem to
 lack a namespace prefix definition for 'rdf'. This causes some tools
 to choke when parsing the XML. Also I noticed that the ol:authors
 element seems to have the wrong information in it. Maybe this would be
 a good time for me to try to patch the source? Is there a tracker of
 some kind you are using for bug reports like this?

Yes, we use launchpad.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlibrary

There are already 2 bugs filed for this.

1. definition of rdf namespace missing in works' rdf
https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlibrary/+bug/585559

2. Author RDF is invalid
https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlibrary/+bug/579149

You are most welcome to contribute. Can you start with providing  
correct RDF representations for a sample work, edition and author?

Anand
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-01 Thread Anand Chitipothu


e...@curry:~/Downloads$ xmllint --format
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL158398W.rdf
http://openlibrary.org/works/OL158398W.rdf:4: namespace error :
Namespace prefix rdf on RDF is not defined


This error is fixed now.

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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-01 Thread Ed Summers
 Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net wrote:
 There are two possible values for author: the author ID and the author
 name. It seems to me that both are of interest -- the author ID would
 be another entry point for getting more info, but the author name
 allows immediate use/display of the work data. Would it be useful to
 have both? Or is the author ID enough?

I agree with Jim. In an ideal world I think both is preferable...and
its doable from an rdf perspective. Clients would get a label to
display to a user, without having to resolve another identifier. And
they would also get a nice shiny author identifier to learn more about
the author, and for other people to reference in their data. You can
see this pattern in the lcsh data at id.loc.gov:

  http://id.loc.gov/authorities/sh95000541.rdf

See that the concept is connected to its narrower, broader and related
concepts using the URI, but that the rdf also contains minimal
descriptions of these related URIs that include a skos:prefLabel? This
way someone can display the immediate network of concepts without
having to make a bunch of HTTP requests.

But basically whatever is easiest right now to fix the error of displaying:

 ol:authorshttp://openlibrary.org.rdf/ol:authors

would be best I guess.

Thanks for asking!
//Ed
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-01 Thread George Oates
Hi Ed,

Thanks - and yes, we're beginning to track RDF-related issues in our Launchpad:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlibrary/+bugs?field.tag=rdf

This would be Super Awesome time for you to patch the source!! Can we help you 
along with that?

Cheers,
george


Ed Summers wrote:
 Kudos for keeping the linkeddata rdf views in the new version of
 OpenLibrary. I just noticed that the application/rdf+xml views seem to
 lack a namespace prefix definition for 'rdf'. This causes some tools
 to choke when parsing the XML. Also I noticed that the ol:authors
 element seems to have the wrong information in it. Maybe this would be
 a good time for me to try to patch the source? Is there a tracker of
 some kind you are using for bug reports like this?
 
 e...@curry:~/Downloads$ xmllint --format
 http://openlibrary.org/works/OL158398W.rdf
 http://openlibrary.org/works/OL158398W.rdf:4: namespace error :
 Namespace prefix rdf on RDF is not defined
 ^
 ?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
 RDF xmlns:ol=http://openlibrary.org/type/work;
   ol:lc_classificationsTK5105.888 .B46 1999/ol:lc_classifications
   ol:titleWeaving the Web/ol:title
   ol:covers48833/ol:covers
   ol:first_publish_date1999/ol:first_publish_date
   ol:key/works/OL158398W/ol:key
   ol:authorshttp://openlibrary.org.rdf/ol:authors
   ol:subject_peopleTim Berners-Lee/ol:subject_people
   ol:typehttp://openlibrary.org/type/work.rdf/ol:type
   ol:subjectsWorld Wide Web/ol:subjects
   ol:subjectsHistory/ol:subjects
   ol:subjectsAccessible book/ol:subjects
   ol:subjectsProtected DAISY/ol:subjects
 /RDF
 
 //Ed
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-01 Thread George Oates
Oops :)

Excuse me!



Anand Chitipothu wrote:
 On 01-Jun-10, at 7:28 PM, Ed Summers wrote:
 
 Kudos for keeping the linkeddata rdf views in the new version of
 OpenLibrary. I just noticed that the application/rdf+xml views seem to
 lack a namespace prefix definition for 'rdf'. This causes some tools
 to choke when parsing the XML. Also I noticed that the ol:authors
 element seems to have the wrong information in it. Maybe this would be
 a good time for me to try to patch the source? Is there a tracker of
 some kind you are using for bug reports like this?
 
 Yes, we use launchpad.
 
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlibrary
 
 There are already 2 bugs filed for this.
 
 1. definition of rdf namespace missing in works' rdf
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlibrary/+bug/585559
 
 2. Author RDF is invalid
 https://bugs.launchpad.net/openlibrary/+bug/579149
 
 You are most welcome to contribute. Can you start with providing  
 correct RDF representations for a sample work, edition and author?
 
 Anand
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-01 Thread Ed Summers
On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net wrote:
 Agreed. However, we aren't using SKOS, so I'm thinking we'll use
 something like:

 rdf:Description rdf:about=http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL22022A;
          rdf:valueBarbara Cartland/rdf:value
       /rdf:Description

 Does that work for folks? Can you embed those rdf:Description
 properties at various levels with impunity?

Yes, I didn't mean to imply that you should use skos...in fact I think
that would be a mistake. I just wanted to point out that rdf would
support the 'both' option. While you definitely could use rdf:value,
since you are modeling people why not introduce a bit of foaf?

rdf:Description rdf:about=http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL22022A;
  foaf:nameBarbara Cartland/rdf:value
/rdf:Description

 Also, is there any feeling, strong or otherwise, about substituting dc
 terms where appropriate in the place of ol terms, or is everyone fine
 with doing their own translates from ol properties to whatever they
 use locally?

+1 for trying to reuse other vocabularies where you can, instead of
creating a new one

//Ed

[1] http://viaf.org/viaf/48369992/rdf.xml
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Re: [ol-tech] a few notes on rdf views

2010-06-01 Thread Anand Chitipothu

On 02-Jun-10, at 7:34 AM, Ed Summers wrote:

 Just another quick update to let you know I emailed foaf-dev for  
 advice:

  http://lists.foaf-project.org/pipermail/foaf-dev/2010-June/ 
 010253.html

 To start hacking on the code I'd need to get a develop instance up and
 running which I imagine could take some time. Unfortunately I've got a
 few other high priority things going on, but I would like to work on
 this some. Do the openlibrary tech folks have a skype call or anything
 I could sit in on?

Open Library generates the RDF using a template. If you can workout a  
sample RDF, then I can make that into a template. Setting up a dev  
instance is not an easy thing to do as of now.

Right now, the template for rendering RDF for editions is at:
http://openlibrary.org/upstream/templates/type/edition/rdf.tmpl

Anand
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