Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Boris Pavlovic
Hi,

I believe that keeping review queue clean is the great idea.
But I am not sure that set of these rules is enough to abandon patches.

Recently I wrote blogpost related to making OpenStack community more user
friendly:
http://boris-42.me/thoughts-on-making-openstack-community-more-user-friendly/

tl;dr;

Patches on review are great source of information what is missing in
project.
Removing them from queue means losing this essential information. The result
of such actions is that project doesn't face users requirements which is
quite bad...

What if that project team continue work on all abandoned patches  that
are covering
valid use cases and finish them?

Best regards,
Boris Pavlovic



On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com wrote:

 On 13/02/15 11:06 +, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:

 Hi all,

 We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue for
 glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday’s meeting for adopting
 abandon policy for stale changes.

 The documentation can be found from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/
 glance-cleanout-of-inactive-PS and any input would be appreciated. For
 your
 convenience current state below:


 Thanks for putting this together. I missed the meeting yday and this
 is important.

  Glance - Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review


 We Should start cleaning out our review list to keep the focus on changes
 that
 has momentum. Nova is currently abandoning change proposals that has been
 inactive for 4 weeks.



 Proposed action (if all of the following is True, abandon the PS):

 1. The PS has -1/-2 (including Jenkins)


 I assume you're talking about voting -1/-2 and not Workflow, right?
 (you said jenkins afterall but just for the sake of clarity).

  2. The change is proposed to glance, glance_store or python-glanceclient;
specs should not be abandoned as their workflow is much slower

 3. No activity for 28 days from Author/Owner after the -1/-2


 I'd reword this in No activity. This includes comments, feedback,
 discussions and or other committers taking over a patch.

  4. There has been  query made to the owner to update the patch between 5
 and
10 days  before abandoning (comment on PS/Bug or something similar)

  ● Let's be smart on this. Flexibility is good on holiday seasons, during
feature freeze, etc.


 +2 to the above, I like it.

 Thanks again,
 Flavio

 --
 @flaper87
 Flavio Percoco

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Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Flavio Percoco

On 13/02/15 11:06 +, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:

Hi all,

We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue for
glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday’s meeting for adopting
abandon policy for stale changes.

The documentation can be found from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/
glance-cleanout-of-inactive-PS and any input would be appreciated. For your
convenience current state below:



Thanks for putting this together. I missed the meeting yday and this
is important.


Glance - Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review


We Should start cleaning out our review list to keep the focus on changes that
has momentum. Nova is currently abandoning change proposals that has been
inactive for 4 weeks.



Proposed action (if all of the following is True, abandon the PS):

1. The PS has -1/-2 (including Jenkins)


I assume you're talking about voting -1/-2 and not Workflow, right?
(you said jenkins afterall but just for the sake of clarity).


2. The change is proposed to glance, glance_store or python-glanceclient;
   specs should not be abandoned as their workflow is much slower

3. No activity for 28 days from Author/Owner after the -1/-2


I'd reword this in No activity. This includes comments, feedback,
discussions and or other committers taking over a patch.


4. There has been  query made to the owner to update the patch between 5 and
   10 days  before abandoning (comment on PS/Bug or something similar)

 ● Let's be smart on this. Flexibility is good on holiday seasons, during
   feature freeze, etc.


+2 to the above, I like it.

Thanks again,
Flavio

--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco


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Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Alexander Tivelkov
Hi!

Important chagesets are supposed to have bugs (or blueprints) assigned
to them, so, even if the CS is abandoned, its description still
remains on Launchpad in one form or another, so we will not loose it
from general project's backlog. And if the changeset didn't have a
bug/blueprint specified, then it either does not represent a real use
case at all (or its owner didn't bother to document it anyway, so
keeping the changeset most probably will not help to understand the
use case)

So I like the proposal in general.

However, it has a little issue: imagine a patchset which receives a -1
from some random reviewer. The owner may reply to that -1 with a
reasonable counterargument, and in this situation it is up to the
initial reviewer to either agree with that counterargument and revoke
the -1 or to continue the discussion and persuade the owner to change
the code. However, I've seen situations when the reviewers do not
react to such replies and the changesets remain idle with a single -1
which are in fact addressed but not removed. It would be a bad
practice if we abandon such commits just because their initial
reviewers have lost any interest in continuing the discussion with
owners.

Probably we should keep such situations in mind when defining inactive.

--
Regards,
Alexander Tivelkov


On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com wrote:
 Hi Boris,



 Thanks for your input. I do like the idea of picking up the changes that
 have not been active. Do you have resources in mind to dedicate for this?



 My personal take is that if some piece of work has not been touched for a
 month, it’s probably not that important after all and the community should
 use the resources to do some work that has actual momentum. The changes
 itself will not disappear the owner is still able to revive it if felt that
 there is right time to continue it. The cleanup will just make it easier for
 people to focus on things that are actually moving. It also will make bug
 tracking bit easier when one will see on the bug report that the patch got
 abandoned due to inactivity and indicates that the owner of that bug might
 not be working on it after all.



 -  Erno



 From: Boris Pavlovic [mailto:bpavlo...@mirantis.com]
 Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 1:25 PM
 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals
 from review



 Hi,



 I believe that keeping review queue clean is the great idea.

 But I am not sure that set of these rules is enough to abandon patches.



 Recently I wrote blogpost related to making OpenStack community more user
 friendly:

 http://boris-42.me/thoughts-on-making-openstack-community-more-user-friendly/



 tl;dr;



 Patches on review are great source of information what is missing in
 project.

 Removing them from queue means losing this essential information. The result

 of such actions is that project doesn't face users requirements which is
 quite bad...



 What if that project team continue work on all abandoned patches  that are
 covering

 valid use cases and finish them?



 Best regards,

 Boris Pavlovic







 On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com wrote:

 On 13/02/15 11:06 +, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:

 Hi all,

 We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue for
 glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday’s meeting for adopting
 abandon policy for stale changes.

 The documentation can be found from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/
 glance-cleanout-of-inactive-PS and any input would be appreciated. For your
 convenience current state below:


 Thanks for putting this together. I missed the meeting yday and this
 is important.

 Glance - Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review


 We Should start cleaning out our review list to keep the focus on changes
 that
 has momentum. Nova is currently abandoning change proposals that has been
 inactive for 4 weeks.



 Proposed action (if all of the following is True, abandon the PS):

 1. The PS has -1/-2 (including Jenkins)


 I assume you're talking about voting -1/-2 and not Workflow, right?
 (you said jenkins afterall but just for the sake of clarity).

 2. The change is proposed to glance, glance_store or python-glanceclient;
specs should not be abandoned as their workflow is much slower

 3. No activity for 28 days from Author/Owner after the -1/-2


 I'd reword this in No activity. This includes comments, feedback,
 discussions and or other committers taking over a patch.

 4. There has been  query made to the owner to update the patch between 5 and
10 days  before abandoning (comment on PS/Bug or something similar)

  ● Let's be smart on this. Flexibility is good on holiday seasons, during
feature freeze, etc.


 +2 to the above, I like it.

 Thanks again,
 Flavio

 --
 @flaper87
 Flavio Percoco

Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Kuvaja, Erno
Hi Boris,

Thanks for your input. I do like the idea of picking up the changes that have 
not been active. Do you have resources in mind to dedicate for this?

My personal take is that if some piece of work has not been touched for a 
month, it’s probably not that important after all and the community should use 
the resources to do some work that has actual momentum. The changes itself will 
not disappear the owner is still able to revive it if felt that there is right 
time to continue it. The cleanup will just make it easier for people to focus 
on things that are actually moving. It also will make bug tracking bit easier 
when one will see on the bug report that the patch got abandoned due to 
inactivity and indicates that the owner of that bug might not be working on it 
after all.


-  Erno

From: Boris Pavlovic [mailto:bpavlo...@mirantis.com]
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 1:25 PM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals 
from review

Hi,

I believe that keeping review queue clean is the great idea.
But I am not sure that set of these rules is enough to abandon patches.

Recently I wrote blogpost related to making OpenStack community more user 
friendly:
http://boris-42.me/thoughts-on-making-openstack-community-more-user-friendly/

tl;dr;

Patches on review are great source of information what is missing in project.
Removing them from queue means losing this essential information. The result
of such actions is that project doesn't face users requirements which is quite 
bad...

What if that project team continue work on all abandoned patches  that are 
covering
valid use cases and finish them?

Best regards,
Boris Pavlovic



On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Flavio Percoco 
fla...@redhat.commailto:fla...@redhat.com wrote:
On 13/02/15 11:06 +, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:
Hi all,

We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue for
glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday’s meeting for adopting
abandon policy for stale changes.

The documentation can be found from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/
glance-cleanout-of-inactive-PS and any input would be appreciated. For your
convenience current state below:

Thanks for putting this together. I missed the meeting yday and this
is important.
Glance - Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review


We Should start cleaning out our review list to keep the focus on changes that
has momentum. Nova is currently abandoning change proposals that has been
inactive for 4 weeks.



Proposed action (if all of the following is True, abandon the PS):

1. The PS has -1/-2 (including Jenkins)

I assume you're talking about voting -1/-2 and not Workflow, right?
(you said jenkins afterall but just for the sake of clarity).
2. The change is proposed to glance, glance_store or python-glanceclient;
   specs should not be abandoned as their workflow is much slower

3. No activity for 28 days from Author/Owner after the -1/-2

I'd reword this in No activity. This includes comments, feedback,
discussions and or other committers taking over a patch.
4. There has been  query made to the owner to update the patch between 5 and
   10 days  before abandoning (comment on PS/Bug or something similar)

 ● Let's be smart on this. Flexibility is good on holiday seasons, during
   feature freeze, etc.

+2 to the above, I like it.

Thanks again,
Flavio

--
@flaper87
Flavio Percoco

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Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Flavio Percoco

On 13/02/15 14:17 +, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:

Hi Boris,



Thanks for your input. I do like the idea of picking up the changes that have
not been active. Do you have resources in mind to dedicate for this?



My personal take is that if some piece of work has not been touched for a
month, it’s probably not that important after all and the community should use
the resources to do some work that has actual momentum. The changes itself will
not disappear the owner is still able to revive it if felt that there is right
time to continue it. The cleanup will just make it easier for people to focus
on things that are actually moving. It also will make bug tracking bit easier
when one will see on the bug report that the patch got abandoned due to
inactivity and indicates that the owner of that bug might not be working on it
after all.


I agree the above holds most of the times. However, I think we should
add one more step to the bullets you mentioned in your previous email.
That is, taking a good look to the review and understanding if it'd be
worth taking it over.

Some reviews are stalled on minor fixes/rebases. It'd be a shame to
abandon a patch that would be a good fix for a bug based on a missing
rebase.

Flavio





-  Erno



From: Boris Pavlovic [mailto:bpavlo...@mirantis.com]
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 1:25 PM
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals
from review



Hi,



I believe that keeping review queue clean is the great idea. 


But I am not sure that set of these rules is enough to abandon patches.



Recently I wrote blogpost related to making OpenStack community more user
friendly:

http://boris-42.me/thoughts-on-making-openstack-community-more-user-friendly/



tl;dr;



Patches on review are great source of information what is missing in project.

Removing them from queue means losing this essential information. The result

of such actions is that project doesn't face users requirements which is quite
bad...



What if that project team continue work on all abandoned patches  that are
covering 


valid use cases and finish them?



Best regards,

Boris Pavlovic 








On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Flavio Percoco fla...@redhat.com wrote:

   On 13/02/15 11:06 +, Kuvaja, Erno wrote:

   Hi all,

   We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue
   for
   glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday’s meeting for
   adopting
   abandon policy for stale changes.

   The documentation can be found from https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/
   glance-cleanout-of-inactive-PS and any input would be appreciated. For
   your
   convenience current state below:


   Thanks for putting this together. I missed the meeting yday and this
   is important.

   Glance - Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review


   We Should start cleaning out our review list to keep the focus on
   changes that
   has momentum. Nova is currently abandoning change proposals that has
   been
   inactive for 4 weeks.



   Proposed action (if all of the following is True, abandon the PS):

   1. The PS has -1/-2 (including Jenkins)


   I assume you're talking about voting -1/-2 and not Workflow, right?
   (you said jenkins afterall but just for the sake of clarity).

   2. The change is proposed to glance, glance_store or
   python-glanceclient;
  specs should not be abandoned as their workflow is much slower

   3. No activity for 28 days from Author/Owner after the -1/-2


   I'd reword this in No activity. This includes comments, feedback,
   discussions and or other committers taking over a patch.

   4. There has been  query made to the owner to update the patch between
   5 and
  10 days  before abandoning (comment on PS/Bug or something similar)

● Let's be smart on this. Flexibility is good on holiday seasons,
   during
  feature freeze, etc.


   +2 to the above, I like it.

   Thanks again,
   Flavio

   --
   @flaper87
   Flavio Percoco
  
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Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Kuvaja, Erno
Hi,

Getting so mixed that I’ll jump to the inline commenting as well.

From: Boris Pavlovic [mailto:bo...@pavlovic.me]
Sent: 13 February 2015 15:01
To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals 
from review

Erno,


My personal take is that if some piece of work has not been touched for a 
month, it’s probably not that important after all and the community should use 
the resources to do some work that has actual momentum.

Based on my experience, one of the most common situation in OpenStack is next:
1) Somebody makes fast (but with right idea) changes, because he (and usually 
others) needs it
2) It doesn't pass review process fast
3) Author of this patch has billions others tasks (not related to upstream) and
can't work on this change anymore
4) Patch get's abounded and forgotten

I’m unfortunately starting to sound like a broken record but again. If no-one 
has touched the change (or taken it over) in 4 weeks at the point when there is 
clear indication that if the change does not get traction it will be cleaned 
from the review, it’s probably not worth of keeping there any longer either.

The changes itself will not disappear the owner is still able to revive it if 
felt that there is right time to continue it.

Nobody never reviews abounded changes..

Repeating the previous, if your change gets abandoned because of inactivity and 
you don’t care about it, why should someone else who haven’t cared so far?

 The cleanup will just make it easier for people to focus on things that are 
actually moving.

Making decision based on activity around patches is not the best way to do 
things.

So what would be better way to do it? We have currently 4 pages of change 
proposals in the review that has been touched by anyone in Feb. Honest 
question, who scrolls further than that or even down to that 4th page? From 
page 6 forward there are changes that has been last time touched last year. And 
this is purely from “updated” column, so I did not look when the 
owner/author/committer has last time touched these.

If we take a look at the structure of OpenStack projects we will see next 
things:

1) Things that re moving fast/good are usually related to things that core team 
(or active members) are working on.
This team is resolving limited set of use cases (this is mostly related because 
not every member is running it's own production cloud)

This is very true, dropping that core team away and let’s keep the active 
members here. Because it’s a community it’s extremely difficult to get people 
working on something else than what they or their employers sees important.

2) Operators/Admins/DevOps that are running their own cloud have a lot of 
experience knows a lot of missing use cases and
source of issues. But usually they are not involved in community process so 
they don't know whole road map of project, so they are not able to fully align 
their patches with road map, or eventually just don't have enough time to work 
on features.

So abounding patches from 2 group just because of inactivity can make big harm 
to project.

I don’t think pushing for activity is bad thing and would do big harm for 
project(s). These are matters of priority and I do not see any benefit keeping 
changes in review that haven’t been touched for months (current situation). If 
this group 2 is the fundamental issue of our changes stalling in review, we 
need to fix that rather than let it clutter the queue. We are talking open 
source project and community here. I find it extremely hard to justify asking 
anyone in the community to take responsibility of someone else’s production 
cloud if they have no interest to resource the above for the benefit of their 
own business.

 Do you have resources in mind to dedicate for this?

Sometimes I am doing it by my self, sometimes newbies in community (that want 
some work to get involved), sometimes core team is working on old patches.

We will not run out of the bug fixing work and the commits against those bugs 
will stay in the bug even after they get abandoned.

Important chagesets are supposed to have bugs (or blueprints) assigned
to them, so, even if the CS is abandoned, its description still
remains on Launchpad in one form or another, so we will not loose it
from general project's backlog

This is not true in a lot of cases. =)
 In many cases DevOps/Operators don't know or don't want to spend time for 
launchpad/specs/ and so on.

Then we need to educate and encourage them instead of support the behavior of 
“Throw it in and someone at some day will maybe take care of it”-attitude.


-  Erno

Best regards,
Boris Pavlovic


On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Kuvaja, Erno 
kuv...@hp.commailto:kuv...@hp.com wrote:
Hi Boris,

Thanks for your input. I do like the idea of picking up the changes that have 
not been active. Do you have resources in mind to dedicate for this?

My

Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread James E. Blair
Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com writes:

 Hi all,

 We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue
 for glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday's meeting for
 adopting abandon policy for stale changes.

Hi,

Abandoning changes submitted by other people is not a good experience
for people who are contributing to OpenStack, but fortunately, it is not
necessary.

Our current version of Gerrit supports a rich syntax for searching,
which you can use to create personal or project dashboards.  It is quite
easy to filter out changes that appear old or inactive, without the
negative experience of having them abandoned.

Many projects, including all of the infra projects (which see a
substantial number of changes) are able to function without
automatically abandoning changes.

If you could identify why you feel the need to abandon other peoples
changes, I'm sure we can find a resolution.

-Jim

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Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Kuvaja, Erno
 -Original Message-
 From: James E. Blair [mailto:cor...@inaugust.com]
 Sent: 13 February 2015 16:44
 To: OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
 Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals
 from review
 
 Kuvaja, Erno kuv...@hp.com writes:
 
  Hi all,
 
  We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue
  for glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday's meeting for
  adopting abandon policy for stale changes.
 
 Hi,
 
 Abandoning changes submitted by other people is not a good experience for
 people who are contributing to OpenStack, but fortunately, it is not
 necessary.
 
 Our current version of Gerrit supports a rich syntax for searching, which you
 can use to create personal or project dashboards.  It is quite easy to filter 
 out
 changes that appear old or inactive, without the negative experience of
 having them abandoned.
 
 Many projects, including all of the infra projects (which see a substantial
 number of changes) are able to function without automatically abandoning
 changes.
 
 If you could identify why you feel the need to abandon other peoples
 changes, I'm sure we can find a resolution.
 
 -Jim

Hi Jim,

I think you hit spot on here. It's extremely difficult to automate anything 
like this being smart and flexible. ;)

- Erno
 
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Re: [openstack-dev] [glance] Cleanout of inactive change proposals from review

2015-02-13 Thread Louis Taylor
Erno Kuvaja wrote:
 We have almost year old (from last update) reviews still in the queue
 for glance. The discussion was initiated on yesterday's meeting for
 adopting abandon policy for stale changes.

I'm okay with abandoning old some old reviews which are obviously going
nowhere, such as ones superseded by other fixes or not deemed necessary by
anyone (and should probably have been abandoned by the author). I'm not
convinced about this being a commonplace action for reviews which are currently
inactive.

James E. Blair wrote:
 Abandoning changes submitted by other people is not a good experience
 for people who are contributing to OpenStack, but fortunately, it is not
 necessary.
 
 Our current version of Gerrit supports a rich syntax for searching,
 which you can use to create personal or project dashboards.  It is quite
 easy to filter out changes that appear old or inactive, without the
 negative experience of having them abandoned.
 
 Many projects, including all of the infra projects (which see a
 substantial number of changes) are able to function without
 automatically abandoning changes.
 
 If you could identify why you feel the need to abandon other peoples
 changes, I'm sure we can find a resolution.

I agree with this. I made (actually hacked up Ironic's. Thanks Ironic!) a
dashboard for glance [1], which is what I use during reviewing. This hides a
lot of the reviews which look stale, and is fairly good at getting an overview
of the reviews which require attention.

Using or editing a dashboard for your own daily use removes the need to abandon
the majority of the changes this proposal suggests.

Louis

[1] http://goo.gl/eS05pD


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