adding or
deleing spaces to make the characters / and \ link correctly to the words above
and below those lines.
From: "John F Sowa"
Cécile,
After reading this thread, I found a quotation by Peirce that shows how to draw
an existential graph
Cécile and Helmut,
After sending my previous note, I thought of more examples for representing
sign relations in EGs -- including EGs that link together whatever graphs are
necessary to express anything.
I want to emphasize that I was inspired by some of Peirce's writings, but some
examples go
Cécile,
After reading this thread, I found a quotation by Peirce that shows how to draw
an existential graph that follows Peirce's words quite closely. It's also
consistent with the quotation by Noeth: "Peirce did consider the sign to be a
triadic relation, but only in 1868. However, from 18
Jon,
In discussing Peirce's writings, it's important to point out differences and
developments in his writings over time. But if Peirce didn't say something
explicitly, it's important to avoid putting words in his mouth. The following
comment you quoted does not cite any statement by Peirce
I agree with Edwina's comments. And I would add that it's important to ask
what do you mean by the phrase "a diagram of the sign". Do you mean a
diagram of Peirce's method of defining a sign. Or do you mean examples of
actual instances of marks, tokens, and types?
Since anything perceptibl
I agree with Mihai Nadin "that AGI is yet another of those impossible to
achieve tasks." I have repeatedly said that it won't be achieved in the 21st
C, but I won't make any predictions about the 22nd. So far, nobody has
produced the slightest shred of evidence for any kind of AGI any sooner
After a bit of searching, I found more info about Verses AI and their new chief
scientist. I like the approach they're taking: putting more emphasis on
natural thinking process in neuroscience. And their new chief scientist has
publications that would lead them in that direction. The ideas l
Verses AI published an article in the NY Times that criticizes and debunks
generative AI, and proposes an alternative. I agree with their criticism, but
I don't know enough about the alternative to make any further comments. If
anybody has difficulty getting the following website, an excerpt w
Mary, List,
I agree that the triangle by Ogden & Richards is horribly misleading. But a
triangle by itself can be used for many useful purposes of various kinds.
What is misleading is that O & R drew their triangle in a book that also
contained an appendix with MSS by Peirce. That combination
Dear Robert, Edwina, and all,
As we have been discussing, Peirce's work is at the forefront of ongoing
research and publications in the 21st century. But many people complain that
his jargon is an obstacle. Yet those people don't realize that the jargon
they're reading and writing today is far
Dear Robert, Edwina, and all readers of Peirce-List,
I share the concerns of Robert, Edwina, and a large number of subscribers who
rarely comment on this list. We have discussed these and related issues
before. In the early 2000s, this list was a vital source of discussion by some
of the best
Robert,
These discussions raise several important issues: What did Peirce intend in
any particular MS at the time he wrote it? How did his thinking on the same
and related issues develop over time? How are they related to the authors he
studied, and to his colleagues he worked with, taught,
sell were misled by their notations.
From: "Jerry LR Chandler"
Sent: 12/5/23 10:08 PM
To: Peirce List , Mike Bergman
Cc: Jerry LR Chandler , John F Sowa
, Ontolog Forum
Subject: Role of Copula in the logic of Grammars. Re: [PEIRCE-L] Peirce and
Knowledge Representation
Mike, L
For months, I have been criticizing LLM technology for ignoring the 60+ years
of developments in AI and computer science.
But finally, they can now call a subroutine to do elementary arithmetic. That
might not sound like much, but it opens the door to EVERYTHING. It means that
LLMs can now in
this forum, and the Peirce forum that I have added to this list, would
benefit from learning more about his cogent insights.
Best, Mike
[1] https://www.mkbergman.com/a-knowledge-representation-practionary/
On 12/4/2023 5:54 PM, John F Sowa wrote:
Mike,
I apologize for not seeing the original note
Alex,
I agree that robotics includes a very important range of applications. The
most important applications of LLMs include the ability to talk (or type) in
natural languages to control and communicate with robots and other kinds of
systems. And the same kinds of communications will be used
Alex,
Re LLMs: Of course, Arun and I use LLMs for what they do. Please note our
joint article: Majumdar, Arun K., & John F, Sowa (2009) Two paradigms are
better than one, and multiple paradigms are even better, Proceedings of ICCS
2009, edited by S. Rudolph, F. Dau, and S.O. Kuznetsov,
Alex,
It's very easy to find such fragments:
Alex> Please give me an example of "complex continuous fragment, which would
require an uncountable amount of math to specify".
Just open your eyes. Everything you see has an open-ended amount of
complexity. What you see at one glance can be capt
Alex,
Formally defined existential graphs (EGs) and conceptual graphs (CGs) are
precisely defined mathematical notations. In fact, CGIF (Conceptual Graph
Interchange Format) is defined as an ISO standard representation of Common
Logic. Therefore, any or all notations of the Semantic Web can
nsions like GEGs.
**Human**: give Markdown version of this dialog.
**Assistant**: Here is a Markdown version of our dialog:
(See above)
[2] https://claude.ai/chat/bbfc2686-649e-4654-b47c-217dae51299e
пт, 17 нояб. 2023 г. в 22:19, John F Sowa :
Alex,
The diagrams you are thinking about are lim
Alex,
Mihai Nadin is asking very important questions. Perception and action are
fundamental for every kind of thinking. When you perceive something, that sets
the sage for anticipating action. The anticipation stimulates the thinking
that leads to the action. I have emphasized the methods t
As I have said in recent notes sent to three groups (Ontolog Forum, Peirce
List, and CG list), Peirce's work on diagrammatic reasoning is at the forefront
of current research on Generative AI and related applications.
In some of my notes on this topic, I have included excerpts from an article I'
Alex,
Thanks for the list of applications of LANGUAGE-based LLMs. It is indeed
impressive. We all agree on that. But mathematics, physics, computer science,
neuroscience, and all the branches of cognitive science have shown that natural
languages are just one of an open-ended variety of left
Alex,
I'm glad that we finally agree. The main problem with the LLM gang is that
they don't ask the fundamental questions: How is this new tool related to the
60+ years of R & D in AI, computer science, and the immense area of the
multiple cognitive sciences?
For example, Stanislas Dehaene
Gary,
I enjoy browsing through your Turning Signs with their wealth of quotations and
links to related topics.
I also wanted to mention the quotations of the month by my wife Cora, who has a
PhD in classical philology from Harvard. For years (up to 2022) she posted a
quotation, usually from Gr
Anatoly, Stephen, Dan, Alex, and every subscriber to these lists,
I want to emphasize two points: (1) I am extremely enthusiastic about LLMs and
what they can and cannot do. (2) I am also extremely enthusiastic about the
60+ years of R & D in AI technologies and what they have and have not don
Objective Reduction theory
(Orch-OR).
Best,
Ricardo
On Mon, Oct 2, 2023 at 5:40 AM John F Sowa wrote:
That article shows several points: (1) The experts on the subject don't agree
on basic issues. (2) They are afraid that too much criticism of one theory
will cause neuroscientists to consi
That article shows several points: (1) The experts on the subject don't agree
on basic issues. (2) They are afraid that too much criticism of one theory
will cause neuroscientists to consider all theories dubious. (3) They don't
have \clear criteria for what kinds of observations would or wou
urprises there.
As far as I know, there are GPTs that can build diagrams and even accept them
as input. After all, the first ANN layer is more likely intended for an image
than for text.
Interesting topics include visual thinking and movie thinking.
Alex
вт, 26 сент. 2023 г. в 23:35, John F
Alex,
The only relevant item in that reference is a publication that is cited before
the paywall: https://arxiv.org/pdf/2309.06979.pdf
What they prove is that you can train a system of LLMs to simulate a Turing
machine. But that proves nothing. Almost every AI system designed in the past
60
I'm sorry that the 2008 version of CL is not available. The 2018 version has
some complex extensions that nobody uses. The IKL extensions are simpler and
more useful. Unfortunately, the 2018 ISO standard does not separate the
extensions from the much simpler and more useful core.
There were
Alex,
Those things were done and published years ago. They are not research issues,
and there is nothing controversial about them. They were published in an
official ISO standard. The latest version was published in 2018, but it is
more complex, and the subset that was defined in 2007 is t
stanford.edu/entries/structure-scientific-theories/
[3] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/structural-realism/
чт, 14 сент. 2023 г. в 01:27, John F Sowa :
Since I suggested that anybody who is trying to define anything should check
the definitions in a good dictionary, I decided to take my
Since I suggested that anybody who is trying to define anything should check
the definitions in a good dictionary, I decided to take my own advice. See the
attached defs.htm for definitions of the words 'diagram' and 'structure' in the
American Heritage Dictionary and the Merriam Webster Dicti
Alex.
I read that web page you cited. What Google calls "foundation models" I would
call "mappings based on specialized ontologies". They include three kindds:
(1) text to image, (2) text to code, and (3) speech to text.
I believe they are making a serious mistake by using English text in t
Alex,
Your observations about existential graphs are a good starting point for
several topics.
Re Jon Awbrey: I've known him for many years. He's developing a system that
begins with EGs and connects with many mathematical issues. But I've been
relating a much broader range of Peirce's theo
Alex,
Thanks for that example. It shows the importance of the unconscious
computation that is performed in the human cerebellum, whose perceptions and
actions are totally unconscious. I urge everyone to click on the link in your
note.
There is an important reason why the human drone experts
Alex and Michael DB,
To Alex: I agree with what you wrote, but with three important qualifications:
(1) Every node in a diagram represents a concept. (2) Every linear notation
for mathematics is a special case of some diagram; in some cases, the
linearization is a one-to-one mapping; but in o
Alex,
The words 'structure' and 'diagram' have multiple informal meanings in
dictionaries of English. They also have multiple formal meanings in different
theories of engineering, science, architecture, mathematics, ...
Alex> Diagram is just a picture. Rotate it on 180 grads or delete labels,
Edwina, Alex, and Doug F,
In my note to Alex, I said that every diagram is a structure, and every
structure is a diagram. But I was too hasty in saying that. I should have
said that a diagram is a kind of structure that may be used to represent the
significant aspects of something else.
A di
Doug F, et al.,
I'm writing an article about Peirce's phaneroscopy and diagrammatic reasoning,
which has strong implications for ontology, reasoning methods, and their
implications for the latest issues in generative artificial intelligence. See
below for excerpts from that article and some li
Doug,
Re "new math": I was a mathematician from way back. When I was in high
school, I learned the old calculus with differentials (dx/dt) from my father's
calculus textbook. But the best introduction was "Calculus for the practical
man" which skipped the epsilons and deltas, introduced calc
The Bourbaki were a group of brilliant mathematicians, who developed a totally
unusable system of mathematics. That example below shows how hopelessly
misguided they were. Sesame Street's method of teaching math is far and away
superior to anything that the Bourbaki attempted to do. Sesame st
fuel the
hype and polarization, rather than help to calm things down…
Dan
On Thu, 17 Aug 2023 at 21:02, John F Sowa wrote:
A recent article contains a great deal of truth, which the French summarize:
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose: Funding is the constant that drives
AI and the c
A recent article contains a great deal of truth, which the French summarize:
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose: Funding is the constant that drives
AI and the choice of terminology.
Note to Alex: When you're defining the terminology, be sure to include the
price tags.
See below for som
Dear All,
This thread has attracted too many responses for me to save all of them. But
Mihai Nadin cited intriguing experimental evidence that fruit flies "think"
before they act (copy below). I also found a web site that says more:about
the experimental methods:
https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/
Alex,
The answer to your question below is related to your previous note: "Just a
question: do flies or bees have mental models?"
Short answer: They behave as if they do, Bees definitely develop a model of
the environment, and they go back to their nest and communicate it to their
colleague
A recent discussion about consciousness in Ontolog Forum showed that Peirce's
writings are still important for understanding and directing research on the
latest issues in artificial intelligence. The note below is my response to a
discussion about AI research on artificial consciousness. The
Tom, Dan, and Helmut,
We must distinguish three different systems: (1) the Large Language Modlels
(LLMs) which are derived from large volumes of texts, (2) ChatGPT and other
systems that use the LLMs for various purposes, and (3) the human brain + body
+ all the human experience of interacting
Dan and Tom,
That article by Steven Piantadosi, which is dated Marh 2023, is obsolete. The
author used a version of OpenAI, which was supposed to be based on GPT-4, but
was actually based on features that were added to 8 copies of GPT 3.5, Each
copy used the older version of GPT (LLMs by them
to demonstrate the functionality/precission by which
semiosis operates with the Kantian and then without it and assess the clarity
thereafter.
I do take your notes seriously - I just know the divide won't be reconciled
between Peirce and Kant (not by my thesis - but others may well ou
Jack,
My criticisms have nothing to do with logic, yours or anybody else's. They are
based solely on the history of science from the 18th century (Hume and Kant) to
the enormous progress in the late 19th c. and the revolutionary developments in
the 20th and 21st. I'm cc'ing note to Peirce List
Jack,
Your latest summary is very clear. Unfortunately, there are three criticisms
that make it unacceptable for any serious publication:
According to three ways of interpreting the phrase "in itself", your claim is
(1) obvious and irrelevant, (2) complex and unprovable, (3) irrelevant to
any
Jon and Jack,
I believe that there is a way out of this impasse. Although I agree that
Jon's conclusion is correct, I believe that we have to state the issues of
perception, cognition, and semeiotic with more precision, In particular, it's
essential to state the issues in terms of Peirce's
Jack,
All the discussion in this list has given you a huge amount of material for
your thesis. I'll admit that some of the arguments did not refute the claim
about an incognizable Ding an sich.
JRKC: "There is no Peircean Semeiotic, whatsoever - without the Kantian thing
in itself. The objec
Jack, list,
In my previous note, I said that the differences between Kant & Peirce can be
explained by the huge development of science between the mid 18th c (Kant) and
the late 19th c (Peirce). But I realize that quotations are important to pad
out a publication. At the end are some quotati
Jack, I agree with you, especially about the bickering.
But when I said that the details are not important, I meant the tons of
quotations. You won't discover why Kant and Peirce disagreed about the
noumenon just by reading what they wrote -- or any commentary by any scholar of
either or both.
Dear John Shook,
I had sent a note to Peirce-L about a lecture that a colleague and I had
presented on May 31st. And it was extremely critical of GPT and related
systems. Their only good and reliable contribution is their ability to do
better machine translation than previous AI systems. Th
Jon,
That's a good list of quotations by Peirce that show the development of his
thoughts about God and religion. I took your list of quotations (cited below)
and added the two quotations about Buddhism in his letters to LW (1908) and to
WJ (1909). See the attached file CSP_God.htm.i
A stron
The subject line sounds like the beginning of a joke. Unfortunately for them,
it wasn't a joke. See the news item below. There will be more news about this
case later today.
For anyone who may be interested in ChatGPT and related systems, you can check
the slides and the video of a talk by my
Jeff, Jon, Jack, Helmut, et al.,
Before discussing Peirce's comments about Kant and others, I think it's
important to review Peirce's background and the influences that led to his
final synthesis.
By the time Peirce was 8 years old, his father had taught him Greek, Latin,
mathematics, and che
Mary,
Thanks for citing that book.
Note to all: If anybody has a copy of that book (or any other reference pro or
con the issue of the "thing in itself"), please find and send us any excerpt or
summary that might clarify these issues.
After further thought about this issue, my doubts about P
eep inventing more precise instruments. But there is still a huge
amount that is unknowable in nearly every object we encounter.
John
--------
Excerpt from: "John F Sowa"
Sent: 6/7/23 1:24 AM
The quotation below summarizes Peirce's theory of scienc
Jack and Jon,
I believe that the two of you are talking past one another. I also suspect
that a major reason for the disagreement is that Kant and Peirce had very
different criteria for what it means to know something. By knowing, Kant meant
absolutely total knowledge of something, not just i
Jack and Jon,
I have been tied up with other commitments, which have prevented me from
devoting any time to this thread. So I'm going back to one of the earlier
notes to emphasiize a very important point: Phaneroscopy is prior to
Semeiotic. The phaneron is raw experience. The only science t
Jon,
Your note of April 20 (copied below) is indeed a serious question for
pragmatists. It contains claims and assumptions that Peirce would not accept.
I'll start with an issue we had discussed some time ago.
I wrote that the Christians who translated the Greek New Testament to Chinese
chos
On May 31st, I presented a talk on "Evaluating and reasoning with and about
GPT", and Arun Majumdar presented a demo that shows how the technology
developed by Permion.ai LLC supports those methods.. These methods also show
that ideas developed by Charles Sanders Peirce, especially in the last
Mike,
That little chat is sufficiently vague and untestable by any experiment anybody
is likely to carry through that it's indistinguishable from the mind flapping
through the physical breeze. The many sentences and phrases in it
Your opening line starts "We spoke before..." How much speakin
ly happened to him.
John
From: "Kingsley Idehen' via ontolog-forum"
Sent: 5/20/23 1:20 PM
To: ontolog-fo...@googlegroups.com, John F Sowa
Cc: Peirce List
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Little Known Facts (was Geometry language
On 5/20/
Anatoly,
Thanks for finding those articles. Vissarion Shebalin was the composer I was
thinking of. I remembered the letter V in his name, but I didn't remember
whether it was his first or last name. But as soon as I saw the name in the
article by Yuri Vagzadin, it rang a bell (in my brain,
"I make them up."
That's what GPT does.
I think I'll stick with Wikipedia.
John
From: "Kingsley Idehen' via ontolog-forum"
Sent: 5/19/23 4:18 PM
To: ontolog-fo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [ontolog-forum] Geometry
Alex and Doug,
There are areas of the language regions that are specialized for different
languages. There was a French speaker who suffered a stroke that left him
unable to speak his native language. But he was able to speak German, which he
had studied in school. The therapist used German
Dan, Gary F, et al.,
There was a discussion jn Ontolog Forum about some issues on related topics.
Alex Shkotin had cited some important articles about aspects of human
cognition, and I added further comments.
John
From: "John F Sowa"
Sent:
Jack,
I agree that you need something prior to semeiotic. In Peirce's classification
of the sciences, mathematics comes first. It has three branches: (1)
mathematical or formal logic, (2) discrete mathematics, (3) continuous
mathematics.
Then philosophy depends on mathematics. Alll three
Dan, Michael, et al.
In response to my previous note in this thread, I received an offline comment
with a quotation by Peirce that helps explain the so-called Large Language
Models of GPT:
"Two things here are all-important to assure oneself of and to remember. The
first is that a person is no
rewrite. But I don't bother to cite a reference for them.)
John
From: "Dan Everett"
Sent: 4/22/23 6:55 AM
To: John F Sowa
Cc: Gary Richmond , Helmut Raulien ,
Peirce-L , Michael Shapiro
Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Chat GPT, Peirce, Wittgenste
Gary R, Dan, Helmut,
I added more items to the subject line because they're relevant to the way
Peirce's writings are related to the first two.
Re Gary's comment about "marked": Languages have various options for using
words and grammatical features. The most common or default option is sai
Gary,
There are many ways of interpreting the theories of science. Uninterpreted
observations are firsts. Statements about observations are seconds.
Interpretations are thirds.
All scientists of any stripe make interpretations. Pure nominalists say that
the there are no *laws* of nature, t
Jeff,
I believe that Peirce's 1903 classification provides a simpler basis for
explaining his comments about continuity.
JBD> I think Peirce's semiotic theory moves from an initial classification of
signs to a physiological account of the functioning and growth of a systems of
signs in their r
Folks,
All these issues that are being discussed are important. But I believe that we
should also consider the following questions::
1. How did Peirce's positions on these issues develop at various points in his
career?
2. How did they relate to what he learned from his own research and from
Jon,
We have discussed this issue many times before. R669 was the end of the line
for Peirce's old specification of EGs. In the next MS, R670, he deleted the
complex encrustations that made it impossible to generalize EGs beyond two
dimensions, and he began to replace them with a more precise
Ben, Jerry, All,
Thanks for your comments. They indicate (1) that Peirce used the phrase
"sop to Cerberus" in a broad range of cases, and (2) it could be
interpreted in a broad range of ways.
I had read the passage copied below on multiple occasions, but always
while reviewing Peirce's
Literally, Cerberus was the three-headed dog that guarded the gates to the
underworld. But who did Peirce have in mind when he wrote the following
paragraph in a letter to Lady Welby on 25 December 1908?
"I define a Sign as anything which is so determined by something else,
called its Object,
Peirce's letters to Lady Welby summarize critical issues in the last decade
of his life. When the dates of the letters are correlated with the dates of
his MSS, they provide informal explanations of his more technical issues
and relate them to her writings. They also mention issues in his person
https://mlml.io/p/peirce-interprets-peirce/
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Jeff,
Your questions about Peirce's proof of pragmatitiicsm are important.
Jeff> I tend to think the later writings often build on the earlier. As
such, I wonder what the later proof borrows by way of premisses from the
arguments developed in the 1903 Harvard Lectures on Pragmatism. Once tha
Tom, Jerry, and Helmut,
The fact that I put Semeiotic at the center means that I assume a Peircean
foundation. I don't believe that it's possible to show the full implications
of that Venn diagram and its interrelationships without a framework such as
Peirce's or something very similar.
Tom
My suggested labels for the intersections:
Reality and thought: Perception and action.
Reality and language: Semantics
Thought and language: Imagination
All three: Semeiotic
John
From: "jean-yves beziau" beziau...@gmail.com
Helmut,
As an example of a real possibility that does not happen to exist at the
moment, consider the quality of having exactly the same genes as any
historical person -- say Julius Caesar, George Washington, or your
great-grandmother.
There are so many genes and so many options for each
Helmut, Gary F, List
The many complex issues in this thread would require a lengthy commentary.
But I'll just make a few remarks on the word myth.
In classical Greek, the basic meaning of mythos is (1) word or speech; (2)
public speech; (3) conversation; (4) thing said, fact, matter; (5
Gary F,
I enjoy browsing through your Turning Signs from time to time -- mainly
because you put more emphasis on the questions than the answers. Any
particular answers can become obsolete, but questions always remain fresh.
One set of answers always leads to more questions. For any truly
Is there an errata sheet for NEM or anybody who should be notified about
errors in it?
When I studied and wrote about Peirce's 1911 EGs, I used a transcription
of the mislabeled MS 514, which was mistakenly dated 1909. Since Peirce
had written some MSS with different versions of EGs with la
Jon,
I'm glad that you found Dunn's semantics for modal logic useful. But
where did you find any MSS about Delta graphs?
John
t
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PEIR
Jon,
Your recent note reminded me of one I had started in reply to one of yours on
April 9th. But I got distracted by miscellaneous details, such as income tax.
So I finished the earlier note and include it here.
I have much more to say about modal logic, but I'll save that for another note.
Alex, Matteo, Igor, Lists,
A one-dimensional structure is often an awkward approximation to some
n-dimensional structure. For example, C. S. Peirce invented the
one-dimensional notation for predicate calculus (which Peano modified by
introducing letters drawn upside-down and backwards). Bu
Dear Ulysses,
UP: Does the metaphor of "the ground" or "grounding" in semiosis have an
association to the "ground" in electrical circuits?
Short answer: The ground in electrical circuits is not a metaphor. It
literally means a connection to something connected to the ground, such as a
wate
JLRC: On some occasions, CSPeirce's logical notation included the
multiplication sign, an operation that may conflict with the scientific
notation of chemistry and the notion of a natural object
Yes. That is the reason why Peano began the practice of turning letters
upside down and backwards
Avril,
Before saying anything further, I'd like to recommend Wittgenstein's term
"Sprachspiel", which is usually translated as "language game', but a better
translation might be "language play", "language practice", or just "language
context". One of Ludwig W's ,most relevant discussions
Lars,
I added the word 'women' to the subject line because I wanted to mention a
debate in 1958 that was both humorous and enlightening: "The ontological
status of women and abstract entities",
http://jfsowa.com/ontology/church.htm
In 1947, Nelson Goodman and Willard Van Orman Quine publis
Lars> I think we revolve around the same basic problem: is there anything
called 'abstraction' beyond instances of abstract cognition?
Yes. Those things are called "patterns". And the formal study of
patterns is called "mathematics". And the foundation for cognition in
every living thing
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