Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Universal/General/Continuous and Particular//Singular/Individual

2017-01-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
Jon, Kirstima, List, I am not clear about (besides many others) the term "Nominalism", and why everybody does not like nominalism. Ockham thougt, that universals do not have an extra-mental substance. I think it is ok. to guess so, if I think, that the universe has a mind. So universals are not e

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] nominalism

2017-01-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
Thank you, Edwina (and you all, Jon, John...). I understood that Nominalism means to reduce (or upduce?) everything to a symbol of a secondness, a language that adresses brute facts. So bio- and physicochemical semiotics are ignored, as there is no symbolic language. Only humans have languages, so

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] nominalism

2017-01-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
Edwina, I agree, by adopting Peirce´s definition of "Nothing", which is only a no-thing, meaning no things, no secondnesses, but possibilities there are, even limitless. So Peirces "Nothing" is not the absence of possibilities. Maybe this Peircean "Nothing" is the same like the Thoran/Biblical "T

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] nominalism

2017-01-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
develop when matter develops. So, before there was matter, this 'Nothing' is not Firstness. As Peirce outlines it - it is 'nothing'. Firstness is a powerful mode of organization of matter, rejecting closure, limits, borders. And certainly, since matter at this pretemporal phase hasn&

Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] nominalism

2017-01-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
nal Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt   On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: Edwina, list, If there are limitless possibilities in the beginning, and then evolve things

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] nominalism

2017-01-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
idebound with habits" (CP 6.158); and that "dead matter would be merely the final result of the complete induration of habit reducing the free play of feeling and the brute irrationality of effort to complete death" (CP 6.201).   Regards,   Jon     On Tue, Jan 24, 20

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] nominalism

2017-01-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
n     On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 3:35 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: Jon, List, Ok, so, again, a term problem. so, if habit is not exclusively a mental fact, I might agree. Like in cybernetics, there are catastrophic and counter-regulative circles, and when first a c

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] nominalism

2017-01-26 Thread Helmut Raulien
n without habit, 1ns and 2ns without 3ns, is blank nothing.   Regards,   Jon     On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: Jon, I think my problem is that I see "habit" and "continuity" as phenomena, or effects, and ask myself: E

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nominalism vs. Realism

2017-01-28 Thread Helmut Raulien
Jon, List, The second point to me seems like Radical Constructivism, and the first point like Two-Realms-theory by Luther and Calvin (maybe by Platon too?). The first point is new to me, and perhaps an answer to the question I always have had: In the old times people were all quite faithful, so

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nominalism vs. Realism

2017-01-28 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supplement: A third point is being introduced by Eugene Halton in his post just sent: Nominalism claims, that social affairs are not real/natural. Eugene presents for example Hume´s view that only human egocentrism is natural, as only the individual is real, and therefore a strong state gove

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nominalism vs. Realism

2017-01-28 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supp-supplement: In my view of sytems theory, a system is more than it´s parts, of course, and what is more, is real and natural. But in my opinion "natural" does not mean "good for us". A sytem that contains other systems, like a society that contains individuals, or their communications, co

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nominalism vs. Realism -

2017-02-16 Thread Helmut Raulien
List, I think that I mostly think in diagrams and pictures, even when I think about words. I think that at this point, there is helpful Peirces three modes of consciousness: Primisense, Altersense and Medisense. They are connected with the three categories, and with the three object relations as

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Nominalism vs. Realism - ???

2017-02-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
Jerry, John, List, It would be interesting to ask somebody who has been born blind. A word is a string of letters, and a melody a string of sounds. But the perceived thing of a word is a term, and that is not a string. A melody perceived neither is. Maybe to call that, what it is, a picture or a

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Truth as Regulative or Real; Continuity and Boscovich points.

2017-03-04 Thread Helmut Raulien
List, I guess it might help to talk about time (and space) scales now, and about systems hierarchies with the sytems having different time (and space) scales. I think that synechism is connected to (Peircean) monism. Eg. the dualism of mind and matter: Matter is effete mind. "Effete" is an unusu

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Truth as Regulative or Real; Continuity and Boscovich points.

2017-03-05 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supplement: Is there a crisis of systems theory, like I am feeling? If so, I have the hunch, that the reason for that is the blunt "Network" metaphor, whose wide use blocks the inquiry about structures, scales, continuity, processes, and so on. I feel, that the "Network" concept is normative

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Pragmatic Theory Of Truth

2017-03-17 Thread Helmut Raulien
Dear List Members, I think, that the Peircean truth is the similarity between the immediate and the dynamical object, achieved in the infinite future, and this similarity will be perfect (after indefinite time), when the only aspect, that tells it (the similarity) from sameness, is, that the imme

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Pragmatic Theory Of Truth

2017-03-20 Thread Helmut Raulien
questions in my mind.   On Mar 17, 2017, at 3:20 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   Dear List Members, I think, that the Peircean truth is the similarity between the immediate and the dynamical object, achieved in the infinite future, and this similarity will be perfect (aft

[PEIRCE-L] Aw: Re: Pragmatic Theory Of Truth

2017-03-20 Thread Helmut Raulien
hing, so you might find Peirce-pertinent discussion under that search tag.   Regards,   Jon Sent from my iPad On Mar 17, 2017, at 4:20 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   Dear List Members, I think, that the Peircean truth is the similarity between the immediate and t

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Pragmatic Theory Of Truth

2017-03-20 Thread Helmut Raulien
o such thing, so you might find Peirce-pertinent discussion under that search tag.   Regards,   Jon Sent from my iPad On Mar 17, 2017, at 4:20 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   Dear List Members, I think, that the Peircean truth is the similarity between the immediate an

[PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term "truth"

2017-03-25 Thread Helmut Raulien
List, In common language the word "truth" is used for two different things: The fact and it´s representation (the truth independent of observation, and the truth as represented- correct representatrion). In philosophy it mostly is only used for the representation, and means a correct representatio

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-26 Thread Helmut Raulien
mmediate and dynamic object are a very clear explanation of that difference that makes as just humans... All the best Claudio   Helmut Raulien escribió el 25/03/2017 a las 20:05: List, In common language the word "truth" is used for two different things: The fact and it´s repres

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-26 Thread Helmut Raulien
tations. And both concepts of immediate and dynamic object are a very clear explanation of that difference that makes as just humans... All the best Claudio   Helmut Raulien escribió el 25/03/2017 a las 20:05: List, In common language the word "truth" is used for two different thi

Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-27 Thread Helmut Raulien
ee that we can only change the Immediate Object we can never grasp anything of the Dynamic Object without transforming it at the same time in an Immediate Object the Dynamic Object is like "the carrot in front of the donkey" (I don't know if this is also an English _expression_), we w

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-27 Thread Helmut Raulien
diate Object we can never grasp anything of the Dynamic Object without transforming it at the same time in an Immediate Object the Dynamic Object is like "the carrot in front of the donkey" (I don't know if this is also an English _expression_), we will never reach it... happily...

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-28 Thread Helmut Raulien
one' entities. Edwina -- This message is virus free, protected by Primus - Canada's largest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Mon 27/03/17 3:22 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent: List, Edwina, I think, that there are four kinds of dyna

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-28 Thread Helmut Raulien
istic/"literal-bound" by adhering carefully to what Peirce actually wrote about these matters.   Regards,   Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt   On Tue, Ma

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-29 Thread Helmut Raulien
e contact of the insect as pollination. Both are transformed.  Edwina -- This message is virus free, protected by Primus - Canada's largest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Tue 28/03/17 7:03 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent: Jon,

Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-29 Thread Helmut Raulien
hese realms...and I admit that I'm not much interested in using Peirce within the linguistic or human conceptual analysis.  Edwina -- This message is virus free, protected by Primus - Canada's largest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Wed 29/03/17 3:35

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-29 Thread Helmut Raulien
that sounds VERY similar to Peirce's cosmological outline [1.412] of the emergence of the FORMS within the universe. [See his A Guess at the Riddle]. And, as Spencer Brown acknowledges the influence of Peirce - one can see that influence throughout his remarkable book. Edwina     -- This

Aw: Re: RE: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-30 Thread Helmut Raulien
Jeffrey, List, I like you 6 points for orientation how to discuss. I can find an argument of mine from this thread in points 5 and 1. The subject was, that Peirce believed in completely satisfying results due to final study. This applies eg. to dynamical object and final interpretant. Eg. he wro

Aw: Re: Re: RE: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-30 Thread Helmut Raulien
hilosopher, Lutheran Layman www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt   On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote: Jeffrey, List, I like you 6 points for orientation how to discuss. I can find an argument of mine from this thr

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-31 Thread Helmut Raulien
List, Jeffrey, I too had problems with that. Now I think, that Peirce uses the term "habit" in a broader sense: Usually, when I hear or read "habit" I think of a gradual approximation process. This cannot be the case with conservation of energy, because exact conservation cannot be approached: If

Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-31 Thread Helmut Raulien
imus - Canada's largest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Fri 31/03/17 2:46 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent: List, Jeffrey, I too had problems with that. Now I think, that Peirce uses the term "habit" in a broader sense: Usua

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-03-31 Thread Helmut Raulien
common concept,  connects them to the wider community. Edwina -- This message is virus free, protected by Primus - Canada's largest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Fri 31/03/17 4:26 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent: Edwina, The imme

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] semantic problem with the term

2017-04-01 Thread Helmut Raulien
is virus free, protected by Primus - Canada's largest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Fri 31/03/17 4:26 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent: Edwina, The immediate interpretant is internal, but a concept is formed by a society, which the indi

[PEIRCE-L] some problems with language WAS all topics

2017-04-01 Thread Helmut Raulien
List, I think that the language we have is not exact enough for discussing semiotics. Misunderstandings are produced, one after another. We should construct a more exact language, and use inexact terms no longer. Examples:   -The term "is": In taxonomy, classification, it is used for something b

Aw: RE: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Laws of Nature as Signs

2017-04-07 Thread Helmut Raulien
List, I think there are two signs we are talking about: The law formation sign, and a law application (instantiation?) sign. In the law formation sign, it depends on ones belief, which kind of interpretant the law is: Does the law not change anymore, then the interpretant is final, and the immed

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Laws of Nature as Signs

2017-04-08 Thread Helmut Raulien
John, List, Speaking of inanimate reactions, and assumed, that there are natural laws existing governing them, whether or not they have been thoroughly analyzed by humans, I would say, that the instantiation of a law is not it´s token, but the law itself at work. That is so, because in inanimate

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Laws of Nature as Signs

2017-04-08 Thread Helmut Raulien
John, List, I think so, after your proof! Best, Helmut   08. April 2017 um 21:57 Uhr  "John F Sowa"   On 4/8/2017 2:59 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: > I would say, that the instantiation of a law is not it´s token, > but the law itself at work. I agree. > So law is all

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Laws of Nature as Signs

2017-04-08 Thread Helmut Raulien
rus free, protected by Primus - Canada's largest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Sat 08/04/17 2:59 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent: John, List, Speaking of inanimate reactions, and assumed, that there are natural laws existing governing them, whe

Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Laws of Nature as Signs

2017-04-09 Thread Helmut Raulien
argest alternative telecommunications provider. http://www.primus.ca On Sun 09/04/17 12:32 AM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent: Edwina, List, my point was, that a token is embodied, but a molecule has no clear borders (of it´s body), as it contains electrons, whose orbi

Aw: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)

2015-10-19 Thread Helmut Raulien
  Clark, Edwina, Stephen, List, I do not see, that there is an either-or, regarding memes and rational beliefs, or diffusion versus narratives, or subconscious versus conscious structure-elements. I think, that there is both, and that it always is good to make the subconscious conscious, that is,

Aw: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)

2015-10-20 Thread Helmut Raulien
      Supplement: Sorry that I always add supplements, but now there is something about diffusion I want tio add: A crystal of potassium permanganate diffuses in water and turns it pink, but in oil it does not. A meme or an idea diffuses only when it is put into a proper social environment, tha

Aw: Re: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)

2015-10-21 Thread Helmut Raulien
what is the point of their existence? What is being transmitted if not meaning?   Edwina - Original Message - From: John Collier To: Edwina Taborsky ; Helmut Raulien Cc: cl...@lextek.com ; Peirce-L Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 3:46 PM Subject: RE: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (wa

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)

2015-10-22 Thread Helmut Raulien
'? Edwina ----- Original Message - From: Helmut Raulien To: tabor...@primus.ca Cc: John Collier ; cl...@lextek.com ; Peirce-L Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 2:24 PM Subject: Aw: Re: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)     Dear Edwina and All, the bin

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing things

2015-10-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
  Dear Edwina, Gary F., List, Maybe the problem is, that we cannot say, that before there were humans who were able to call something somehow, there were no things. So I propose to amplify the "being-called-" condition towards "application-" or "interaction-" condition. I think, that there are th

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing things

2015-10-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
. My main point was to amplify the anthropocentric "being-called-condition" of a thing towards the universal "interaction-condition", in accord with your response. Best, Helmut "Edwina Taborsky"   See my responses below.   - Original Message - F

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing things

2015-10-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
of a thing towards the universal "interaction-condition", in accord with your response. Best, Helmut "Edwina Taborsky"   See my responses below.   - Original Message - From: Helmut Raulien To: tabor...@primus.ca Cc: g...@gnusystems.ca ; peirce-l@list.iupui.edu

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing things

2015-10-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
Hi! This is all very confusing to me. Language, words, versus reality: Is this the real contradiction? Is truth, expressed with language/words something that has been there in the far past: "In the beginning there was the word" (logos) (Bible), or something in the far future: "Final interpretant"

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing things

2015-10-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
;     On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:31 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   Hi! This is all very confusing to me. Language, words, versus reality: Is this the real contradiction? Is truth, expressed with language/words something that has been there in the far past: "In the beg

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing things

2015-10-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
if reality really is like that. I also dislike Nietzsche. I rather like Kant. But now I am out of arguments- read and write you all later! Best, Helmut    "Clark Goble"     On Oct 23, 2015, at 12:31 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   Hi! This is all very co

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing things

2015-10-24 Thread Helmut Raulien
l term: In this case perhaps a universal teleology or telos? Best, Helmut    "Clark Goble" wrote:     On Oct 23, 2015, at 1:21 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   I thought, that "final interpretant" had something to do with truth. But you wrote, that i

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-25 Thread Helmut Raulien
  List, I consider as follows the difference between "object" in common understanding, and the Peircean object: In common sense, an objects main trait is its permanence, and also its spatial limitation. So it is an entity, something that is, i.e. exists (limited in space, but not in time). But in

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-25 Thread Helmut Raulien
        List, I consider as follows the difference between "object" in common understanding, and the Peircean object: In common sense, an objects main trait is its permanence, and also its spatial limitation. So it is an entity, something that is, i.e. exists (limited in space, but not in tim

Aw: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-25 Thread Helmut Raulien
  Gary f.   } The map is not the territory. [Korzbyski] { http://gnusystems.ca/wp/ }{ Turning Signs gateway   From: Helmut Raulien [mailto:h.raul...@gmx.de] Sent: 25-Oct-15 07:16      List, I consider as follows the difference between "object" in common understandi

Aw: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-25 Thread Helmut Raulien
nflicting truths, it is indispensable to distinguish the immediate object from the dynamical object. ]]  —EP2:477 Gary f. } The map is not the territory. [Korzbyski] { http://gnusystems.ca/wp/ }{ Turning Signs gateway   From: Helmut Raulien [mailto:h.raul...@gmx.de] Sent: 25-Oct-15 07:16  Lis

Aw: Fwd: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-26 Thread Helmut Raulien
<s...@rci.rutgers.edu> Date: Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 8:18 PM Subject: Re: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object? To: Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> Cc: frances.ke...@sympatico.ca, Gary <g...@gnusystems.ca>, Peirce List <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu>   Helmut. list

Aw: Fwd: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-26 Thread Helmut Raulien
previous post to  ". . .dyadic interactions cannot lead to any communication."   Thanks.   Sung           -- Forwarded message -- From: Sungchul Ji <s...@rci.rutgers.edu> Date: Sun, Oct 25, 2015 at 8:18 PM Subject: Re: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes

Aw: Re: Fwd: RE: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-27 Thread Helmut Raulien
explain/understand logic.    If I'm looking at this wrong, feel free to set me straight.    Regards, Tom Wyrick        On Oct 26, 2015, at 4:15 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:         Sung, List, And is a physical interaction a triadic Sign? Eg: A pho

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-27 Thread Helmut Raulien
: http://buff.ly/1wXAxbl  Gifts: http://buff.ly/1wXADj3   On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   You are right: It is random, i.e. meaningless. I had not focused on "meaning", but on "representation" (thirdness): I thought it was

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-27 Thread Helmut Raulien
thing. Usually do.   "... chance ... a mathematical term to express with accuracy the characteristics of freedom or spontaneity." Peirce: CP 6.202   Books http://buff.ly/15GfdqU Art: http://buff.ly/1wXAxbl  Gifts: http://buff.ly/1wXADj3   On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 11:19 AM,

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Seeing Things : What Makes An Object?

2015-10-28 Thread Helmut Raulien
2   Books http://buff.ly/15GfdqU Art: http://buff.ly/1wXAxbl  Gifts: http://buff.ly/1wXADj3   On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 11:19 AM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   You are right: It is random, i.e. meaningless. I had not focused on "meaning", but on "

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Peirce's Categories

2015-10-31 Thread Helmut Raulien
Jon, Jeff, List, I like Jeffs term: "Starting point". I suspect, that -isms are not necessarily ideologies, but often just concepts specific to their starting points of consideration. If this is so, then they can meet and agree. For example: Is nominalism an ideology that denies the existence of

Aw: [biosemiotics:8932] [PEIRCE-L] Re: Peirce's Categories

2015-10-31 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supplement: In what I wrote, there is a sort of fallacy: It is not only about starting points, but rather about choice of method. One method is eager to look for parallelities between the evolution of knowledge in the observers mind and the (suggested) historical evolution of the observed. The

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Vol. 2 of Collected Papers, on Induction

2015-11-08 Thread Helmut Raulien
Hi! "degenerate" supposes a devolution, but there is none. Reference to an interpretant is thirdness, but if the interpretant relation does not contain thirdness, because it is not an argument, but eg. a rheme: Then it is not degenerated, because it has not been an argument before. If the object r

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Vol. 2 of Collected Papers, on Induction

2015-11-09 Thread Helmut Raulien
f an algebraic locus, a locus of any order or class consisting of an aggregation of lower forms. Thus, two straight lines form a degenerate conic. [End quote] Best, Ben On 11/8/2015 12:37 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: Hi! "degenerate" supposes a devolution, but there is none. Referenc

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Vol. 2 of Collected Papers, on Induction

2015-11-10 Thread Helmut Raulien
ion among those two trichotomies. Best, Ben On 11/9/2015 12:47 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: > Ben, List, > > I am sorry for having not known this (scientifical) meaning of > "degenerate". Now, do you think, that abduction, induction, and > deduction somehow can be assigned

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Vol. 2 of Collected Papers, on Induction

2015-11-10 Thread Helmut Raulien
as. On the other hand, for my part I haven't noticed a particular functional connection among those two trichotomies. Best, Ben On 11/9/2015 12:47 PM, Helmut Raulien wrote: > Ben, List, > > I am sorry for having not known this (scientifical) meaning of > "degenerate&quo

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-13 Thread Helmut Raulien
  Franklin, Gary, list, I guess that a sign has an outside respect (of the dynamical object concerning an external meaning) and an inside (self, eigen) respect of what kind of sign it is, which class it belongs to. The dynamical object there is not the external meaning, but the sign itself, exter

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-14 Thread Helmut Raulien
. Moreover, I am somewhat unclear as to whether you are interested in discussing Peirce's work. If you might oblige, would you be able to say how acquainted you are with CSP's writings? Perhaps we could begin from there, starting with what you already understand so that we can find a common g

Aw: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-14 Thread Helmut Raulien
n being defined, is distinguished from the concept of the Dynamic Object. The Dynamic Object is external to the sign, while the Immediate Object is internal to the sign.   I hope this helps.   -- Franklin   ---       On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 11:11 AM

Aw: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-15 Thread Helmut Raulien
sign mediates between an object and an interpretant, there is a sense in which understanding or interpreting a sign leads one to infer the object.   Okay, perhaps I could somehow go through and comment on something else, but that's enough for now, I need a break for a bit. I hope what

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-16 Thread Helmut Raulien
sea, I would just suggest the same papers I already have. If you would like to discuss any of them in a thread, I'll be happy to participate, with the exception of the letters to Welby; I learned the hard way to avoid those for now.   -- Franklin   --

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-16 Thread Helmut Raulien
become able to interpret physical connections we were not able to before. And this is not true of us simply as individual interpreters, but as a community of inquiry, or scientific community.   -- Franklin   ---   On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 3:28 AM, Helmut Raul

Aw: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-16 Thread Helmut Raulien
ndividual interpreters, but as a community of inquiry, or scientific community.   -- Franklin   ---   On Mon, Nov 16, 2015 at 3:28 AM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   Franklin, right! For example, the idea, that a common knowledge can be a d

[PEIRCE-L] Aw: [biosemiotics:8949] Re: Terms, Propositions, Arguments

2015-11-18 Thread Helmut Raulien
Stan, all, am I right with guessing, that "logic"  is, what Peirce calls "argumentation", and may lead to a cosmological concept of "universe", and what might lead to an idea, a guess, or a perception of "everything", might be, what Peirce calls "neglected argument", or "humble argument"?  So, tw

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Re: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-11-26 Thread Helmut Raulien
Dear list members, I think, that the connection between thirdness and triadicity is, that thirdness has three modes (subcategories): 3.1, 3.2, 3.3. So maybe with this respect, one can say, that thirdness is triadic, is that so? Relation, I think, is secondness, as written in the "New List of Cat

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-11-27 Thread Helmut Raulien
Dear All, Regarding the three types of triadic relations (comparison, performance, thought), I would say, that the thought-type, which is of category three, is the one about semiotical 3adic relations, or signs. The comparison type, I think, is eg. a mathematical elementary 3adic relation, a subs

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-11-29 Thread Helmut Raulien
Gary R., Gary F., list, Yes! It is very helpful, and your post too! To me it points at two different kinds of analysis: The analysis of the laws of a general affair, and the analysis of specialization possibilities (Im sure there may be better terms). In both kinds of analysis the Peircean modal

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-11-30 Thread Helmut Raulien
Clark, lists, you wrote: "Yet his broad notion of mind and habits actually fits cosmology quite well." I always have a problem at this point. Isnt it so, that natural laws and natural constants havent change at all since the big bang? I like tychism, synechism, and agapism very much though, as

Aw: Re: [biosemiotics:8987] Re: Re: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-01 Thread Helmut Raulien
eirce's categories," I do most certain agree with him when he writes:   "Real potentiality. . . is only possible if Thirdness is First."    (Evolutionary Metaphysics: the development of Peirce's theory of categories, 191).   Best,   Gary R     Gary Richmond Phi

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Elementary Relatives or Individual Relatives

2015-12-03 Thread Helmut Raulien
Hi Jon, All, I dont want to interrupt the discussion about terms, but I have a question that is about the mathematical relation- but I think this consideration might be expanded to semantics and semiotics. In mathematics, I have read somewhere, a relation is a subset of a cartesian product. Now I

Aw: RE: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-05 Thread Helmut Raulien
Hi! Have I understood correctly: --Embodiment means, that it is a complete triadic sign, eg.: (1), qualisign, is not embodied, (1.1), iconic qualisign, is not completely embodied either, but (1.1.1), rhematic iconic qualisign, is embodied? --Degenerate is everything that is not all thirdness,

Aw: RE: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-06 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supplement: Or is it so, that embodiment is already with a dyad (representamen and object), as you have written? But can that be- I thought that a sign is always a triad ("irreducible"), and never a dyad? Degeneracy, is it the same as involvement: Eg. a written word is a legisign, which involv

Aw: RE: RE: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-07 Thread Helmut Raulien
Gary f, list, Thank you, Gary F., and I should not so quickly have asked this silly question. I understand it like this: Quali-, sin,- legisign is the first level of classification, then in the second level there are six, and ten in the third level. The third level (the ten classes) is the level

Aw: RE: RE: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-07 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supplement: I just have looked into Stans papers, and I think, I wrote something wrong in the mice-example. The highest level in subsumptive (eg. classification) hierarchy is the observer level, that should be the individual level. Or is it the biologist, who is exploring mice? I dont know. Bu

[PEIRCE-L] Aw: Re: Elementary Relatives or Individual Relatives

2015-12-08 Thread Helmut Raulien
sign relations, almost all the literature so far has tackled only the case of elementary sign relations.   Regards,   Jon http://inquiryintoinquiry.com On Dec 3, 2015, at 5:52 PM, Helmut Raulien <h.raul...@gmx.de> wrote:   Hi Jon, All, I dont want to interrupt the discussion about te

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Relations & Their Relatives

2015-12-11 Thread Helmut Raulien
make contact with > empirical phenomena and ground logical theories in observational data. > > Well, it's later than I thought, so I'll have to break here. > > Regards, > > Jon > > On 12/8/2015 11:42 AM, Helmut Raulien wrote: >> Jon, list, >> thank you,

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Relations & Their Relatives

2015-12-12 Thread Helmut Raulien
ions. Beyond its theoretical importance, the extensional > aspect of relations is the interface where relations make contact with > empirical phenomena and ground logical theories in observational data. > > Well, it's later than I thought, so I'll have to break here. > > Re

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-16 Thread Helmut Raulien
Degenerateness, I think, is a relation too. So, something may be (regarded for) degenerate, if you look at it as a mode. Because degeneracy is a trait of modes. But if you look at the same thing regarding it for a sign (a triadic sign), then degeneracy is not something you can assign to it. And an

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-18 Thread Helmut Raulien
Clark, list, you wrote: " If you have the form but not the matter then it’s degenerate.". Thank you: This way eventually, after a long time,  I think I understand why it is called degenerate. Maybe it is like this: "matter" may be understood for "reason", like in the question "Whats the matter?",

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-18 Thread Helmut Raulien
  Supplement: So, degeneracy is not a de-evolution or reverse (de-) generation, but an incomplete or wrong comprehension of how something has been generated (and so the reason why it has), based on the fact, that the generation process is not easily observable, not observable at all, or not observ

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-20 Thread Helmut Raulien
John, Sung, list, for me, as far as I understand, "types" and "classes" are synonyms. The difference between the "9 types of signs" and the "10 classes of signs" is not, as I understand it, a matter of "type" versus "class", but of what it is a type/class of. Id say, the 10 classes are classes of

Aw: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-20 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supplement: I think: The 10 classes of (triadic) signs are 3 classes, that have 6 subclasses (modes), that have 10 subclasses. The 9 types of representamen relations are 3 classes with 9 modes. These three classes are: Relation of the representamen with itself, with the object, and with the in

Aw: FW: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations

2015-12-20 Thread Helmut Raulien
as addressed my concern in a post to the list that crossed mine to him.   John Collier Professor Emeritus, UKZN http://web.ncf.ca/collier   From: John Collier Sent: Monday, 21 December 2015 01:36 To: 'Helmut Raulien' Subject: RE: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and tri

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Relations & Their Relatives

2015-12-22 Thread Helmut Raulien
tions or triples. As a result, the classification of single triples and their components gets us only so far in the classification of triadic relations proper, and except in very special cases not very far at all. Regards, Jon On 12/12/2015 4:32 AM, Helmut Raulien wrote: > Supplement: I suspe

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Relations & Their Relatives

2015-12-23 Thread Helmut Raulien
lassification of single triples and their components gets us only so far in the classification of triadic relations proper, and except in very special cases not very far at all. Regards, Jon On 12/12/2015 4:32 AM, Helmut Raulien wrote: > Supplement: I suspect, that my below consideration is non-P

[PEIRCE-L] Aw: Re: Relations & Their Relatives

2015-12-31 Thread Helmut Raulien
quite complex. Best, Helmut     Gesendet: Montag, 28. Dezember 2015 um 05:10 Uhr Von: "Jon Awbrey" An: "Helmut Raulien" Cc: "Peirce List" Betreff: Re: Relations & Their Relatives Inquiry Blog http://inquiryintoinquiry.com/2015/12/08/relations-their-relatives

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Idols of the Mind vs. True Reality

2016-01-01 Thread Helmut Raulien
"Reply all" has failed, I dont know why, so I send it to the Peirce list now. I am not sure, whether this is correct, but this thread should have something to do with the Peirce list, because, as far as I know, I am not a member of the Sadhu-Sangha-list. In the "concerns" line, the Peirce list is

Aw: [PEIRCE-L] SV: [Sadhu Sanga] Re: Idols of the Mind vs. True Reality

2016-01-01 Thread Helmut Raulien
    Supplement: Now a crude proposal to triadize the "good versus bad"- problem of rating qualia and to solve the "dualism versus monism" problem by (reconstructingly after Peirce) introducing triadism (which may be looked at as a kind of monism, due to the irreducibility of the triad): "Good" in

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