----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .----- Original Message -----From: Helmut RaulienSent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 2:24 PMSubject: Aw: Re: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)Dear Edwina and All,the binary sets I had mentioned all base on the binary set: Information transfer via sub-/unconscious structure elements versus via conscious structure elements. To say it in Peircean terms (as Stephen Rose has claimed): The first three methods of fixating belief (authority, tenacity, a-priori) all need subconscious structure: An authority is only sure, as long as the authority is not questioned. Tenacity only is effective, as long as the tenacious one does not have to answer the question, why he/she is so tenacious. A-priori only works for sure as long it is not analyzed either. An analysis of the subconscious structure elements makes them conscious, and thus puts an end to them. Then there remains the scientific method. Then there probably will be the case, that not everybody in the society agrees with the now conscious, and therefore negotiable elements, so the society may cease to be a system, lose its structure, fall apart into many systems, like political parties. But then there is still (hopefully) democracy, a system with the structure installed: The agreement that it is possible to disagree and still work together. About memes I really would say, that people swallow them. But they make sick, can even make a whole society sick. I think all this is better explained by the sociologist Pierre Bourdieu. To semiotize all this sociological stuff is a challenge, I think. Maybe memes would be a word for unquestioned habits of ways of thinking? Algorhithms including subconscious or for-granted-taken premises, turned into immediate objects? Virus-like immediate objects with a surface that only fits to the representamen "This is relevant and true", and to the interpretant "copy and spread"?Best,HelmutRight - they are 'very much like that of solid material particles'. That's what I mean by saying that they are not semiosic. What are you supposed to do with them? Swallow them?And I would say that of course meaning is part of their essence - otherwise, what is the point of their existence? What is being transmitted if not meaning?Edwina----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .----- Original Message -----From: John CollierCc: [email protected] ; Peirce-LSent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 3:46 PMSubject: RE: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)
From: Edwina Taborsky [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: October 20, 2015 9:36 PM
To: Helmut Raulien
Cc: [email protected]; Peirce-L
Subject: Re: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)
Helmut - I'm against the very notion of 'memes' because they are non-semiosic. They are akin to solid material particles - and the cognitive process does not swallow solid material particles. It transforms them within the semiosic process. Again, memes are non-semiosic and not amenable to semiosis; you swallow them.
I don't get your binary sets of
Meme-vs - rational belief
Diffusion - vs -narrative
Diffusion is a process; narrative is a 'thing'.
Meme is a 'thing'; a rational belief is a conclusion arrived at via reason.
Edwina
----- Original Message -----
From: Helmut Raulien
Cc: [email protected] ; Peirce-L
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 1:10 PM
Subject: Aw: Re: Open axiomatic frameworks (was: [PEIRCE-L] A Second-Best Morality)
Supplement:
Sorry that I always add supplements, but now there is something about diffusion I want tio add: A crystal of potassium permanganate diffuses in water and turns it pink, but in oil it does not. A meme or an idea diffuses only when it is put into a proper social environment, that is a social system with a structure that allows the idea to diffuse (and copy itself). That is why I think, that the diffusion concept is not wrong, but neither complete.
Clark, Edwina, Stephen, List,
I do not see, that there is an either-or, regarding memes and rational beliefs, or diffusion versus narratives, or subconscious versus conscious structure-elements. I think, that there is both, and that it always is good to make the subconscious conscious, that is, to uncover memes to see where they come from. Many of them are myths, that is lies- and these lies may have been told deliberately, or they may have come up by a social systems own dynamics, as any system intends to reinforce itself. Anyway, to make the subconscious conscious is the way of psychoanalysis, and I do not see, what is so wrong about it, fundamentally. Of course, it is bad to have a wrong analysis, and Freud probably was wrong in many places (eg., that a child is polymorph-pervert). But I think, it is very good to replace a diffusion with a narrative- if the narrative is telling the truth, and if this can be made sure. Can it? By scientific method?
Best,
Helmut
"Clark Goble" <[email protected]>
On Oct 19, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> wrote:
Clark - I prefer not to think of Jung. You wrote:
"the sorts of things structuralism dealt with in treating the mind as literature were correct."
I'm not sure what you mean by the above.
In most ways psychoanalysis is treating the mind (especially dreams) as if they were a literary work to be interpreted with the various ways literature was interpreted. That’s why even though Jung, Freud and company aren’t typically taken seriously in science they still are in literature departments.
The way a person interprets literature simply is quite different from say what goes on in contemporary psychology or cognitive science.
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