We probably agree on some broad principles, not necessarily all. I
would not contest your knowledge of the local conditions, Chris, not
only because you are very well informed but because even the most
progressive of movements may often have some unappealing or
reactionary feature, as Michael
I don't now the answer to this specific question. I just wanted to
respond to the difficult issue that there are massive historical
forces for global intervention and that the liberal intelligentsia of
the world, from which I am not separable, tend to be cautiously
sympathetic to intervention.
I
Oh, in principle I agree with you, except that there were no democratic bourgeouis
rights in Chechnya in 1999 to defend. Chechnya was under Shariah law as mediated
through traditional Chechen adat' clan law. (Anecdotally, the retention of adat' was a
real minus in the eyes of the foreign
I wrote:
Chechnya was under Shariah law as mediated through traditional Chechen adat' clan law.
I add:
(The translation is rather spastic. And to think that in the Soviet era Chechnya was
making high-tech goods. I don't think a region has ever degenerated so fast and so
far. Indicentally this
I regret as the inhabitant of a country with a historical Christian
tradition, that there was not more pressure to intervene in the
politics of the Russian Federation on behalf of the people of muslim
culture in Chechnya. Putin has good reason to try to control the
interventionist agenda in his
I think the title of this thread is correct.
The liberal intelligentsia of this world are interventionist, like the
dominant forces of global finance capitalism. They just want the
interventions to be done more carefully and with multi-lateral
coordination than the neo-Cons want.
The stage is
- Original Message -
From: "Yoshie Furuhashi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It is possible that some American liberals leftists actually
understood the essence of the American Prince's role in the Yugoslav
civil wars (and what happened before and after them) and said with
open
En relación a [PEN-L:2978] RE: Re: Memory History: Herman Mel,
el 10 Oct 00, a las 20:05, Lisa Ian Murray dijo:
Nestor,
Do you mean this to say that nationalism is still desirable as a form
of cultural defense against the Americanization of everything?
Ian
I am a socialist, I don't
I guess I am part of the stupid left that is blinkered by imperialist propaganda. I
don't see see how the ratio of state ownership in the former Yugoslavia is deeply
relevant to socialism or whether the regime was worth defending; I am aware that it
was high, but it was as high or higher in
Justin:
I guess I am part of the stupid left that is blinkered by imperialist
propaganda. I don't see see how the ratio of state ownership in the former
Yugoslavia is deeply relevant to socialism or whether the regime was worth
defending; I am aware that it was high, but it was as high or higher
Louis:
We just disagree about the importance of state ownership in the abstract. I support
the welfare provisions you describe, of course, but they are possible under social
democratic capitalism, and state ownership does not guarantee them either. However,
this is a very deep philosophical
Louis wrote:
The ratio of state ownership is deeply relevant. It helps to provide a
job. Jobs are necessary for life. With privatization, you get
unemployment. With unemployment you get begging, starvation, prostitution
and despair. Very important questions to the working class, which is the
Justin wrote:
I do not blame the destruction of Yugoslavia solely on the Milosovic
regime, any more than I blame the destruction of the USSR on the Yeltsin
regime. In both case,there was a conspiracy among nationalist demagogues
(Slobo, Tujdman, etc.) who saw more for themselves in being
Justin:
We just disagree about the importance of state ownership in the abstract. I
support the welfare provisions you describe, of course, but they are
possible under social democratic capitalism, and state ownership does not
guarantee them either. However, this is a very deep philosophical
Jim Devine:
Do you believe that state ownership automatically creates a job? It's not
true in Algeria, for example, where the state ownership of the oil industry
coexists with high unemployment (one factor that has encouraged the Islamic
movement against the government there). Also, even in
En relación a [PEN-L:3000] Re: Memory History: Herman Melvill,
el 11 Oct 00, a las 12:28, Louis Proyect dijo:
I would only add to their excellent article that social democracy is
only possible in imperialist countries. In Costa Rica, the one place
it occurred in the Third World, market
Message -
From: Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:11 AM
Subject: [PEN-L:2998] Re: Re: Re: Re: Memory History: Herman Melville's
_Benito Cereno_ (was Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile)
Louis wrote:
The ratio of state ownership is deeply
11, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:3029] Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Memory History: Herman
Melville's _Benito Cereno_ (was Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile)
I agree that state or rather some type of collective ownership is a
necessary but not a sufficient condition for socialism. Among the positive
- Original Message -
From: "Jim Devine" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Nathan wrote: ... when a people democratically support atrocities by their
-government, it is not just the leadership that bears responsibility but
-the people themselves.
this sounds as if you are
En relación a [PEN-L:2914] Re: Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile,
el 10 Oct 00, a las 0:36, Nathan Newman dijo:
Contra many folks, though, I think the US's collective guilt has far
less to do with its particular military actions, some of which like
Kosovo and Haiti I can defend, but in its
- Original Message -
From: "Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Contra many folks, though, I think the US's collective guilt has far
less to do with its particular military actions, some of which like
Kosovo and Haiti I can defend, but in its collective
It seems to be a constant with Anglo politics that
they will always kill you or rob you on the basis of some
"principle", as the Irishman George Bernard Shaw once pointed out...
And this is worse than robbing or killing you on the basis of no principle? --jks
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It seems to be a constant with Anglo politics that
they will always kill you or rob you on the basis of some
"principle", as the Irishman George Bernard Shaw once pointed out...
And this is worse than robbing or killing you on the basis of no principle? --jks
Néstor wrote:
It seems to be a constant with Anglo politics that
they will always kill you or rob you on the basis of some
"principle", as the Irishman George Bernard Shaw once pointed out...
JKS wrote:
And this is worse than robbing or killing you on the basis of no
principle? --jks
En relación a [PEN-L:2965] Memory History: Herman Melville's ,
el 10 Oct 00, a las 17:51, Yoshie Furuhashi dijo:
What has not changed,
however, is the idea that it is Americans who should bring criminals
of the world to justice. It goes without saying that this self-image
makes Americans
Yoshie Furuhashi dijo:
What has not changed,
however, is the idea that it is Americans who should bring criminals
of the world to justice. It goes without saying that this self-image
makes Americans forget the fact that they are the biggest criminals:
the only remaining superpower
In a message dated 10/8/00 6:01:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Then we shouldn't be sorry to see the nationalist thugs at the CIA, DOD,
NSA etc go too.Once we figure out how to get rid of them of course
Surely we will not. Though they mostly aren't
Seth Sandronsky wrote:
Ken wrote:
The majority may not like Milosevic but they have given his party
more than a majority in recent elections. That is why you are
seeing a
Western-generated uprising. Interesting that some leftists cheer the
burning of parliament buildings when the supposed aim
I was away for a couple of days, so I'm behind and I'm confused. I
thought Yeltsin used state power to bomb the Duma, and Pinochet used
the army to overthrow Allende. I could swear the special bodies of
Serb armed men essentially laid down their arms and gave in to the
throngs in the streets.
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
One can also raise the question of what kind of brutal dictator Milosevic
is, who permitted the USA and other imperialist powers to spend more money
on the opposition parties than any other government
Actually, I agree that Milosevic was not so undemocratic compared to many
other regimes. He was a brutal murderer who promoted the use of rape as a
weapon and ethnic clensing as policy.
But the fact that he was able to do
so reflects not just his personal qualities but a rough reflection of
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
But the fact that he was able to do
so reflects not just his personal qualities but a rough reflection of the
Serbian democratic will, an unfortunate reflection on that population. And
that is one reason
I get a little skeptical of the claims made by the U.S. about the human rights
violations of those whom the United States government chooses to demonize. I'm
not attractive to nationalists of any kind, whether they be Serbian, Bosnian,
or citizens of the United States.
Even so, I think of the
icans deal with their collective
guilt?
Cheers, Ken Hanly
- Original Message -
From: Nathan Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2000 4:06 PM
Subject: [PEN-L:2895] Re: Re: Re: Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile
- Original Message -
From: "Louis Proyect&qu
Nathan wrote: ... when a people democratically support atrocities by their
government, it is not just the leadership that bears responsibility but
the people themselves.
this sounds as if you are advocating the strategic bombing of the US,
Nathan. After all, we voted Bill "mad bomber"
Nathan wrote: ... when a people democratically support atrocities by their
government, it is not just the leadership that bears responsibility but the
people themselves.
Jim wrote: this sounds as if you are advocating the strategic bombing of
the US, Nathan. After all, we voted Bill "mad
En relación a [PEN-L:2803] Yugoslavia to fSU and Chile,
el 8 Oct 00, a las 13:29, Seth Sandronsky dijo:
Ken wrote:
The majority may not like Milosevic but they have given his party
more
than a majority in recent elections. That is why you are seeing a
Western-generated uprising.
I'm sorry to see Milosevich go.
In God's name, why? Don't *ever* be sorry to see nationalist thugs
go. Were you sorry to see Tudjman go? Were you sorry to see Mobutu
go? Were you sorry to see Galtieri go?
Brad DeLong
==
Then we shouldn't be sorry to see the nationalist thugs at
En relación a [PEN-L:2836] NY Times LA Times: "It's Economy ,
el 8 Oct 00, a las 16:47, Yoshie Furuhashi dijo:
... Milosevic, but for
the Serbian working class rural masses Western geopolitics, could
have been a Kwasniewski:
* New York Times, October 8, 2000
Polish Leader Is the
Paul wrote:
I was listening to "As it Happens", the CBC news backgrounder,
this evening on the events in Yugoslavia. Rather interesting.
Apparently Milosevic met with the Army Chiefs and Kostinica,
congratulated Kostinica on his electoral victory and announced he
was going to retire temporarily
Now, a quick question. Several on this list who are otherwise
perceptive and critical thinkers have accepted, and indeed
broadcast, the view that Milosevic is an agent of the devil, etc.
What evidence does anyone on this list have that he is evil, anti-
democratic, satanic etc. other than
In a message dated 10/6/00 9:06:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It seems to me unfortunate when North American leftists become
spokespersons for CIA propaganda.
And I think it unfotrtunate when any leftist becomes an apologist for
nationalistic chauvinism and
I'm sorry to see Milosevich go.
In God's name, why? Don't *ever* be sorry to see nationalist thugs
go. Were you sorry to see Tudjman go? Were you sorry to see Mobutu
go? Were you sorry to see Galtieri go?
Brad DeLong
En relación a [PEN-L:2708] Yugoslavia again,
el 6 Oct 00, a las 10:06, Michael Perelman dijo:
I do foresee one problem looming for the United States. First we lost
the Soviet Union, then Eastern Europe. North Korea seems to be coming
to some sort of agreement with the past. Iran seems
Paul, aren't there other examples about the US defending figure head
presidents vs. strong legislatures when it suited them?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Meanwhile, as Ken Hanly has posted, his party
retains an absolute majority in the legislature -- democratically
elected -- and, it is noted,
Michael,
I am sure there are. But what is the relevance in this case?
Paul
Date sent: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:22:42 -0700
From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:2747] Re: Yugoslavia
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Send reply
I can't recall the case, but someone will remember. A compliant president
was elected who wanted to go against the parliament, but the US demanded that
the authority be given to the president. I suspect that the same will happen
in Yugoslavia.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael,
I am sure
Now, a quick question. Several on this list who are otherwise
perceptive and critical thinkers have accepted, and indeed
broadcast, the view that Milosevic is an agent of the devil, etc.
What evidence does anyone on this list have that he is evil, anti-
democratic, satanic etc. other than
En relación a [PEN-L:2748] Re: Re: Yugoslavia,
el 6 Oct 00, a las 20:26, [EMAIL PROTECTED] dijo:
Michael:
Paul, aren't there other examples about the US defending figure head
presidents vs. strong legislatures when it suited them?
Paul:
Michael,
I am sure there are. But what
I mistakenly erased Louis response to my post and his summary
of Estrin's position in his 1991article. I essentially agree with a lot
of what Estrin says, in particular about the failure to develop an
effective capital market. But that was the point of my arguement
that the 1975 move to
But whatever, I don't see how this provides any evidence for Louis'
bald statement that this proves the non-viability of market
socialism. It is the same as saying that the collapse of the Soviet
Union is proof in the non-viability of central planning and/or the non-
viability of socialism.
,
University of Manitoba.
Date sent: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:37:31 -0400
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:[PEN-L:21957] Re: Re: Re: Re: Yugoslavia
Send reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
But whatever
Whew! Some people on this list must have a lot of free time or be
awfully fast typists given the amount of posting that has been going on
re this and related streams. Let me try to answer some of the queries and
respond to some of the issues raised.
The first is easy: Justin, you can order
Paul, thanks for the very informative post.
At 04:10 PM 7/17/00 -0500, you wrote:
Jim, in the case of Slovenia at least, unemployment did not rise during
the crisis as it remained around 2 per cent though this was in part due to
overemployment by enterprises.
right. Also, wasn't a lot of the
Jim, in the case of Slovenia at least, unemployment did not rise during
the crisis as it remained around 2 per cent though this was in part due to
overemployment by enterprises. Contrary to the prevailing neoclassical
orthodoxy (Ward-Vanek) workers were overly protective of fellow
workers
Michael,
What is the reference for that? Thanks, Steve
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Michael Perelman wrote:
Paul, what do you think of Cheryl Payer's analysis of Yugo.? She says that the
US encouraged self-management to split Yugo. from the USSR.
--
Michael Perelman
Economics Department
Debt Trap. Monthly Review Press, I think.
Michael,
What is the reference for that? Thanks, Steve
On Sun, 16 Jul 2000, Michael Perelman wrote:
Paul, what do you think of Cheryl Payer's analysis of Yugo.? She says that the
US encouraged self-management to split Yugo. from the USSR.
Michael,
This is the first I have ever heard of this suggestion. It sounds
highly improbable to me. According to all my Yugo sources, the
decision was taken in 1950 largely at the suggestion/urging of
Edvard Kardelj, who was a close associate of Tito's. It was a
response to the failure of
I am working by memory, but her work said that the U.S. encouraged Yugoslavia to
follow through with a self-management as a means of further differentiating itself
from the Soviet Union, worried that the two countries might develop a rapprochement.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Michael,
This is
It is interesting that CNN and US broadcast sources who had been using the Serb
TV facilities were given private warnings by NATO that they were to be bombed.
It seems that they did not pass these warnings on to workers at Serb TV. They
left the building knowing that Serb workers were about to be
While packing my bags, I realized that the kind author of this message
told me to use his/her name, but never told me what it was.
Roger
--
From: owner-pen-l
To: pen-l
Subject: Re: Yugoslavia and Hungary
Date: Friday, April 03, 1998 2:14PM
In Slovenia you may
C. Phillips,
Was Tito simply "elected" for thirty years?
peace
In Slovenia you may contact:
Andreja Crnak Meglic
Faculty of Social Sciences
Institute of Social Science
Kardeljeva ploscad 1
1000 Lubjana
phone 386 61 168 3118
Her first name is pronounced 'Andreya'); she is knowledgeable about the
local NGO scene so she may be able to help you making a few
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