RMD980122 Irish news for Thursday 22 January

[anzalone/starbird]

>Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:26:02 -0500 (EST)
>From: RM_Distribution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RMD980122 Irish news for Thursday 22 January
>Status: U
>
> isn't it? Unless and until, of course, Mr Trimble can
> form an alternative arrangement with the SDLP. He's
> been trying for long enough and I'm sure was fairly
> optimistic before Christmas that Seamus Mallon was
> finally going to grant him this wish. I've no doubt
> that at that point he would have washed his hands of
> you, and your prisoners also.
>
> Maybe you should ask Mr Trimble to detail his party's
> contribution to the debate on prisoner releases at
> Stormont as part of the confidence building measures?
> Seeing as how he feels so concerned for their welfare.
> I believe he spent most of his time attacking the
> proposals put forward by the other parties and had
> nothing to offer from his own party. (They left the
> rope at home.) I know that sort of conflicts with the
> image of the high-powered delegation from the UUP which
> visited the UDA/UFF prisoners in the Kesh ã a
> delegation that would not have been out of place on the
> steps of Downing Street. But then, when has
> inconsistency bothered Mr Trimble?
>
> But you see, David, alliances of convenience have a
> dreadful history of ultimately collapsing. On the other
> hand, the tactic of 'no claim, no blame' has a shelf
> life. What then of the UDP? Personally, I sympathise
> with you if you have to conduct a political analysis of
> the way forward with those 'whose thinking your party
> is said to have an insight into'. I thought the mural
> that Johnny Adair stood under for the cameras summed up
> their thoughts on the situation, as it was meant to,
> 'Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out'. That is their
> thinking after all, isn't it? You've got a handful on
> your plate there, David.
>
> The problem is, and you should point this out to them
> (preferably from a distance, for your own safety), they
> can't kill us all. It's fantasy land. I know that at
> times like this there is fear in the nationalist
> community given the random nature of the killings. But
> there is also anger. More importantly, there is
> determination, clear thinking, political awareness of
> what is happening and why, and a conviction that it
> will not be allowed to succeed.
>
> We're not living in the 60s now David, or even the 70s
> when the Orange Card being played meant the game was
> over, the takings collected. Now when its produced it's
> instantly recognised as an Orange Card, and that's no
> good if you're trying to call a bluff, or ill-prepared
> for what cards your opponents might hold.
>
> There's too many have been playing the game for too
> long now to be put off by sleight of hand, or mock
> gestures, or threats. In fact, it has been played so
> clumsily this time it's almost embarrassing. If we were
> to avert our gaze for a moment would you retract it? Or
> should we just rip it up so it can't be played again?
>
>
>_
>
> NOTICES
>
>_
>
>
> Events in England and Ireland
>
>
> SF FUNCTION: Featuring the fabulous Irish Brigade. 9pm
> Friday 23 January, Blakes Tavern, BLANCHARDSTOWN,
> County Dublin. T·ille £4. Everyone welcome. Organised
> by Dublin Sinn FÈin
>
> PUBLIC MEETING: On Bloody Sunday. 7.30pm Friday 23
> January, City Halls, Albion Street, GLASGOW, Scotland.
> Speaker from Derry. Organised by the West of Scotland
> Band Alliance
>
> PICKET: Release all POWs. 2-3pm Saturday 24 January,
> Harold's Cross Bridge, DUBLIN. Everyone welcome.
> Organised by the Logue/Marley Sinn FÈin Cumann
>
> JAMES CONNOLLY EDUCATION TRUST: An Evening of Poetry
> and Music of 1798. 8.30pm Saturday 24 January, Seomra
> Cheoil, Connolly house, 43 Essex Street, Temple Bar,
> DUBLIN. MC: Artist and Actor Jer O'Leary. Refreshments
> served. Everyone welcome
>
> BLOODY SUNDAY COMMEMORATION: Assemble 10.30am Saturday
> 24 January, John Knox Street, GLASGOW, Scotland. March
> leaves at 11am. All political parties welcome.
> Organised by the West of Scotland Band Alliance
>
> BLOODY SUNDAY MARCH: Assemble 12pm Saturday 24 January,
> Highbury Fields, LONDON, England. March leaves at 1pm
> for rally at Caxton House, 129 St John's Way. Speakers:
> John McDonnell MP, Dodie McGuinness (SF) and Joe
> McKinney (Bloody Sunday Relatives Campaign). Social
> following march and rally. Details on 0171 609 1743
>
> PUBLIC MEETING: To discuss the current peace process.
> 7pm Sunday 25 January, Camden Centre, Bidborough
> Street, Kings Cross, LONDON, England. Speakers: Gerry
>  

RMD980122 Irish news for Thursday 22 January

[anzalone/starbird]

>Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:26:02 -0500 (EST)
>From: RM_Distribution <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RMD980122 Irish news for Thursday 22 January
>Status: U
>
> IRISH NEWS ROUND-UP
> Thursday, 22 January, 1998
>
>
>1.   Random shootings terrorise Belfast
>2.   SDLP vote collapses in mid-Tyrone by-election
>3.   Sinn Fein submission to peace talks
>4.   Analysis: Scorn the Orange Card
>5.   Events in England and Ireland
>6.   U.S. tour schedule of killer British regiment
>
>
>_
>
>
> Random shootings terrorise Belfast
>
>
> A siege situation is developing in nationalist areas of
> Belfast as loyalist gunmen roam the city randomly
> attacking vulnerable Catholics.
>
> Another man has been critically injured tonight in a
> gun attack on a bakery in Glengormley, on the northern
> outskirts of Belfast. The seventh shooting this week
> saw two gunmen run down an entry-way to the
> Catholic-owned bakery this evening and shoot one of the
> employees.  The father-of-two was shot three times in
> the head and side as he and his brother were closing the
> premises for the night.
>
> The bakery is in an isolated nationalist area close to
> loyalist strongholds in the north of the city.  The
> gunmen ran back down the alleyway and are thought
> to have simply run across fields to escape. Locals who
> rushed to the scene said the victim remained conscious
> after the shooting, asking bystanders "Why me? Why me?"
> Following surgery, the man's condition was described as
> serious, but stable.
>
> Tonight's shooting follows the murder of
> father-of-three Ben Hughes in one of three separate
> loyalist gun attacks across Belfast last night. Ben was
> murdered at 6pm as he was leaving the shop jn loyalist
> south Belfast where he had worked for over thirty
> years. A lone gunman fired five times, hitting him in
> the head and chest before running away.
>
> In other attacks,  taxi driver John McFarland was shot
> and injured in the north of the city around 9pm after
> answering a call out to theDownview Avenue area.
> A masked man approached the car and fired seven shots
> before running off. Despite
> receiving a head-wound,  Mr McFarland was able to drive
> himself to the Mater hospital where his condition was
> described as 'not life-threatening."
>
> Two hours later, a third loyalist victim was shot
> several times in the body in the predominantly
> Protestant Belvoir [pron. Beever] Park Estate on the
> outskirts of south Belfast.  The shooting of the
> Protestant man is thought to have possibly been a case
> of mistaken identity.
>
> North Belfast Sinn Fein councillor Danny Lavery said
> taxi drivers in particular needed to exercise caution.
> "Mr McFarland believed that he was responding to a
> legitimate request for a taxi, when in fact he was
> lured by his would-be killers to an area of their
> choosing," he said. "Under no circumstances should a
> driver be asked to enter what might be considered a
> dangerous area unless the authenticity of a passenger
> or, as was the case last night, a telephone caller, can
> be established."
>
> The RUC police have finally admitted today that the
> death-squads of the Ulster Defence Association (UDA),
> represented at peace talks by the Ulster Democratic
> Party (UDP), are mostly responsible for the ongoing
> murder campaign in Belfast. After professing ignorance
> of the origin or motivation for recent killings in the
> city, RUC Chief Constable Ronnie Flanagan moved today
> to restore some credibility to the force by blaming the
> UDA for three indiscriminate murders of Catholics in
> recent weeks.
>
> Sinn Fein today suggested the loyalist campaign is an
> effort by the UDA to prevent political change by
> building on the strongly pro-unionist peace 'blueprint'
> published by the British and Irish governments.
>
> Said Councillor Alex Maskey:  "I think that the paper
> produced last week by both governments was a reward for
> the killings and also for the attitude of David Trimble
> and his [Ulster Unionist] party.  So I think the major
> question does need to be asked, why are these killings
> taking place?"
>
> With pressure growing for the UDP to be ejected from
> the talks,  Maskey said his party would not be seeking
> their expulsion.  "While it would  be popular to have
> the UDP removed from the talks we want to see a totally
> inclusive process," he said. The UDP had a major
> responsibility to use whatever influence they had to
> stop the killings and to establish whether or not the
> UDA were prepared to countenance change "because that
> is why these killings are taking place", he adde

RMD980102 Irish news for Thursday/Friday 1/2 January

[anzalone/starbird]

Sometimes a little slice of (real) life adds to the analysis/judgement.
Ellen Starbird


> IRISH NEWS ROUND-UP
> Thursday/Friday, 1/2 January, 1998
>
>
>1.   Peace process under attack
>2.   Family of five escapes murder bid
>3.   McAliskey's fate in hands of British Home Secretary
>4.   Sinn Fein TD's six months in Leinster House
>5.   Analysis: Can they justify 'retaliation?'
>
>
>
>
> Peace process under attack
>
>
> Two indiscriminate murders by loyalists within five
> days coupled with hardline comments by unionist leaders
> has led to an outpouring of fear and anxiety over the
> future of peace efforts in the north of Ireland.
>
> Britain's governor in Ireland Mo Mowlam today called an
> unscheduled meeting of the north's political parties in
> Belfast on Monday to discuss the increasingly grave
> situation.  She strongly criticised the recent murders,
> which she described as "nakedly sectarian" and "random
> acts of overt bigotry".
>
> On New Year's Eve, two loyalists entered the Clifton
> Tavern in north Belfast shortly after 9pm and raked the
> pub with gunfire from an Uzi sub-machinegun and a
> handgun.
>
> Hijacking a car in loyalist west Belfast, the loyalist
> death-squad drove to the nationalist Cliftonville Road
> where two members got out and walked casually to the
> pub, exchanging banter with locals.  On reaching the
> door, the two men pulled masks over their heads and
> guns from under their coats before firing
> indiscriminately. Stunned customers dived behind tables
> but most had no time to move.
>
> Eddie Treanor, a 31-year-old father of one just begin
> New Year's festivities in his local pub when the gunmen
> entered. Eddie was pinned into a window seat and had no
> escape. He died shortly after being shot in the head.
> Five others were injured, two seriously.
>
> The attack followed another fatal gun attack on the
> Glengannon Hotel in Dungannon, County Tyrone at the
> weekend. Father of three Seamus Dillon, a hotel
> doorman, and three others, including a
> fourteen-year-old boy, were injured as masked gunmen
> attempted to shoot their way into a hotel ballroom
> where hundreds of teenagers were attending a Christmas
> disco.
>
> Last night, the breakaway Loyalist Volunteer Force
> which is opposed to the peace process claimed the
> Clifton Tavern shooting had been carried out by its
> "West Belfast brigade".  But the LVF has no known
> support in west Belfast, and suspicion for the attack
> has fallen at least partly on members of the UFF
> ("Ulster Freedom Fighters"), using the LVF as a cover
> name.
>
> One well-known UFF killer did not attempt to hide his
> involvement, with eyewitnesses spotting him at the
> wheel of the getaway car.  The UFF, also known as the
> UDA (Ulster Defence Army), is  still represented at the
> peace talks at Stormont Castle in Belfast.  The
> organisation has claimed to be adhering to a nominal
> ceasefire in order to preserve its position at the
> negotiating table, but has come under pressure to be
> expelled from the talks following this latest attack.
>
> Speaking at the scene of the New Year's Eve mass murder
> bid, a shocked Sinn Fein North Belfast representative
> Gerry Kelly expressed his condolences to Eddie
> Treanor's family and said his party was determined to
> end the conflict through inclusive negotiations.
>
> Mr. Kelly said: "Loyalist attacks on Catholics and
> unionist obstruction in the talks process are designed
> to subvert the peace process and minimise the potential
> for change.  Neither the actions of loyalist death
> squads nor the behaviour of the Unionist leadership
> must be allowed to drag us back into the abyss from
> which we have come."
>
> The Sinn Fein negotiator said there was "an onerous
> responsibility" on the two governments, but
> particularly the British government, to push forward
> with the negotiations.
>
> Following the attacks, unionist politicians have loudly
> warned of the possible collapse of the peace process in
> the absence of gains for their community. Urging the
> resignation of Britain's governor in Ireland Mo Mowlam,
> Ulster Unionist party leader David Trimble claimed the
> two recent loyalists murders were due to a lack of
> concessions in the talks, but did not explain ten
> others last year.
>
> "There is very great concern within loyalist ranks at
> the moment because of the way in which the peace
> process has been operating, because they have seen it
> as something that operates solely to their
> disadvantage," he said.
>
> The UUP leader said there was "diminishing confidence"
> 

RMD980102 Irish news for Thursday/Friday 1/2 January

[anzalone/starbird]

Sometimes a little slice of (real) life adds to the analysis/judgement.
Ellen Starbird


> IRISH NEWS ROUND-UP
> Thursday/Friday, 1/2 January, 1998
>
>
>1.   Peace process under attack
>2.   Family of five escapes murder bid
>3.   McAliskey's fate in hands of British Home Secretary
>4.   Sinn Fein TD's six months in Leinster House
>5.   Analysis: Can they justify 'retaliation?'
>
>
>
>
> Peace process under attack
>
>
> Two indiscriminate murders by loyalists within five
> days coupled with hardline comments by unionist leaders
> has led to an outpouring of fear and anxiety over the
> future of peace efforts in the north of Ireland.
>
> Britain's governor in Ireland Mo Mowlam today called an
> unscheduled meeting of the north's political parties in
> Belfast on Monday to discuss the increasingly grave
> situation.  She strongly criticised the recent murders,
> which she described as "nakedly sectarian" and "random
> acts of overt bigotry".
>
> On New Year's Eve, two loyalists entered the Clifton
> Tavern in north Belfast shortly after 9pm and raked the
> pub with gunfire from an Uzi sub-machinegun and a
> handgun.
>
> Hijacking a car in loyalist west Belfast, the loyalist
> death-squad drove to the nationalist Cliftonville Road
> where two members got out and walked casually to the
> pub, exchanging banter with locals.  On reaching the
> door, the two men pulled masks over their heads and
> guns from under their coats before firing
> indiscriminately. Stunned customers dived behind tables
> but most had no time to move.
>
> Eddie Treanor, a 31-year-old father of one just begin
> New Year's festivities in his local pub when the gunmen
> entered. Eddie was pinned into a window seat and had no
> escape. He died shortly after being shot in the head.
> Five others were injured, two seriously.
>
> The attack followed another fatal gun attack on the
> Glengannon Hotel in Dungannon, County Tyrone at the
> weekend. Father of three Seamus Dillon, a hotel
> doorman, and three others, including a
> fourteen-year-old boy, were injured as masked gunmen
> attempted to shoot their way into a hotel ballroom
> where hundreds of teenagers were attending a Christmas
> disco.
>
> Last night, the breakaway Loyalist Volunteer Force
> which is opposed to the peace process claimed the
> Clifton Tavern shooting had been carried out by its
> "West Belfast brigade".  But the LVF has no known
> support in west Belfast, and suspicion for the attack
> has fallen at least partly on members of the UFF
> ("Ulster Freedom Fighters"), using the LVF as a cover
> name.
>
> One well-known UFF killer did not attempt to hide his
> involvement, with eyewitnesses spotting him at the
> wheel of the getaway car.  The UFF, also known as the
> UDA (Ulster Defence Army), is  still represented at the
> peace talks at Stormont Castle in Belfast.  The
> organisation has claimed to be adhering to a nominal
> ceasefire in order to preserve its position at the
> negotiating table, but has come under pressure to be
> expelled from the talks following this latest attack.
>
> Speaking at the scene of the New Year's Eve mass murder
> bid, a shocked Sinn Fein North Belfast representative
> Gerry Kelly expressed his condolences to Eddie
> Treanor's family and said his party was determined to
> end the conflict through inclusive negotiations.
>
> Mr. Kelly said: "Loyalist attacks on Catholics and
> unionist obstruction in the talks process are designed
> to subvert the peace process and minimise the potential
> for change.  Neither the actions of loyalist death
> squads nor the behaviour of the Unionist leadership
> must be allowed to drag us back into the abyss from
> which we have come."
>
> The Sinn Fein negotiator said there was "an onerous
> responsibility" on the two governments, but
> particularly the British government, to push forward
> with the negotiations.
>
> Following the attacks, unionist politicians have loudly
> warned of the possible collapse of the peace process in
> the absence of gains for their community. Urging the
> resignation of Britain's governor in Ireland Mo Mowlam,
> Ulster Unionist party leader David Trimble claimed the
> two recent loyalists murders were due to a lack of
> concessions in the talks, but did not explain ten
> others last year.
>
> "There is very great concern within loyalist ranks at
> the moment because of the way in which the peace
> process has been operating, because they have seen it
> as something that operates solely to their
> disadvantage," he said.
>
> The UUP leader said there was "diminishing confidence"
> 

Re: Ireland & civil rights

[anzalone/starbird]

>In message , anzalone/starbird
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>>
>>What rubbish.
>
>
>>Yes, the Sein Fein movement leadership is negotiating with the forces of
>>petty bougie etc and governments who aren't politically correct, etc. US
>>British etc.
>>
>>Negotiations are not collaboration. It's useful to distinguish.
>
>Well that would be fine if Sinn Fein were being up-front with their
>supporters about what was happening. But in fact they have been
>triumphalist in presenting the talks as a break-through. They have
>insisted that their position is one of support for Irish independence,



>whilst negotiating on a quite different basis.

??? Are you sure you have your set tuned to the Sinn Fein/British/Irish
negotiations?



 In the longer discussion
>articles, Sinn Fein admit that their goals have been redefined as
>seeking 'parity of esteem' with Unionists. Where once they rejected
>British rule as part of the problem in Ireland, now they call upon the
>British to be honest brokers and persuaders to the unionists. Where once
>Sinn Fein opposed British control over demonstrations, more recently
>they have called on the Government's parades Commission to regulate
>protest in the six counties.


You mean they have called upon the RUC to stop allowing pogroms to take
place under their protection.

Where once the IRA saw the police as
>legitimate targets, Sinn fein have more recently called upon th British
>to admit former IRA volunteers into teh ranks of a 'civilian' police
>force.
>
>Everybody understands that it just was not possible to sustain a
>military campaign against Britain indefinitely. There is nothing in
>principle wrong with seeking negotiation.


Duh.

But in trying to make a virtue
>out of necessity, Sinn Fein have ended up putting a positive gloss on
>the latest in Britain's 'peace' initiatives, which are in content just a
>new form of British rule in Northern Ireland.

You're kidding right?

>
>It's hard to avoid the conclusion that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness
>have come away with less than even Yasser Arafat settled for.
>
>Fraternally
>--
>James Heartfield

Re: Ireland & civil rights

[anzalone/starbird]

What rubbish.

The civil rights movement mobilized and organized the Catholic majority to
take up again the struggle for freedom. The civil rights movement
leadership represented (and still does) the broadest possible coalition.

Movement toward socialism and Irish liberation has been steady on (yes
slow, but did you not notice it was at a full stop before the 60s?) ever
since.

Yes, the Sein Fein movement leadership is negotiating with the forces of
petty bougie etc and governments who aren't politically correct, etc. US
British etc.

Negotiations are not collaboration. It's useful to distinguish.

For a coherent analysis  (I don't think R people's is either) of the
situation in the North I recommend the  RM_Distribution
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> of ;the Irish Republican news and information
service. They also post handy demo info. like the below for those of you
who aren't under house arrest and like to do something every now and then.
Ellen



 NOTICES




 BLOODY SUNDAY COMMEMORATIONS


 Ireland, England, Scotland


 BLOODY SUNDAY COMMEMORATION: Assemble 10.30am Saturday
 24 January, John Knox Street, GLASGOW, Scotland. March
 leaves at 11am. all political parties welcome.
 Organised by the West of Scotland Band Alliance

 BLOODY SUNDAY MARCH: Assemble 12pm Saturday 24 January,
 Highbury Fields, LONDON, England. March leaves at 1pm
 for rally at Caxton House, 129 St John's Way. Speakers:
 John McDonnell MP, Dodie McGuinness (SF) and Joe
 McKinney (Bloody Sunday Relatives Campaign). Social
 following march and rally. Details on 0171 609 1743


 BLOODY SUNDAY MARCH/RALLY: Assemble 2.30pm Sunday 1
 February, Creggan Shops, DERRY and march to Free Derry
 Corner. Speaker: Mitchel McLaughlin (SF)


 U.S.

 (Contact Christy Ward at [EMAIL PROTECTED])


 Sunday, January 18th

 Babylon, NY: A Bloody Sunday commemoration Mass will be
 held at the AOH Hall at 27 Locust Ave., 3 p.m.. Tea and
 soda bread will be served. Call 516-661-9649 or
 516-587-0903 for information.

 Bay Ridge, NY:Brooklyn Irish Northern Aid will hold a
 commemoration at Kitty Kiernan's Pub, 9715 3rd Ave., in
 Bay Ridge, at 4 p.m. The video, "The Law and The
 Order," will be shown, and there will be entertainment
 by Kevin Smith and the N.Y.P.D. Emerald Society Pipe
 band. Paul Doris, national Chairperson of Irish
 Northern Aid, will be a guest speaker, as well as Tom
 Hughes, an eyewitness to Bloody Sunday. Donation of $10
 is asked. Contact Vicki McFadyen at 718-680-2981.

 Sunday, January 25th

 Hartford, CT: The Hartford Unit of Irish Northern Aid
 will host its annual Bloody Sunday Commemoration
 breakfast at the Irish-American Home. There will be a
 Mass at 11 a.m. followed by a pancake and sausage
 breakfast. Tickets for adults at $5, tickets for
 children are $3. Call Rich Lawlor at 860-549-3750 for
 information.

 Thursday, January 29th

 Pittsburgh, PA: Greater Pittsburgh Irish Northern Aid
 will hold a Bloody Sunday commemoration at the
 Bloomfield Bridge Tavern, beginning at 7 p.m. Msgr.
 Charles Rice will be the featured speaker, followed by
 music from Ploughman's Lunch, Terry Griffith, Richard
 Hughes and others. Admission is $5. Contact Judi at
 412-279-1887 for more information and directions.

 Saturday, January 31st

 New York, NY: Members of Irish Northern Aid from the
 New York tri-state area and other support groups will
 hold a protest at the offices of British Airways at 530
 Fifth Ave., from noon until 2 p.m., to mark the
 anniversary of Bloody Sunday. Frank Durkan will be the
 guest speaker. Call the INA New York office for
 information: 212-736-1916.

 Columbus, OH: The Diarmuid O'Neill Unit of Irish
 Northern Aid will hold a Bloody Sunday commemoration at
 the Shamrock Club, 60 West Castle Road, Columbus,
 beginning at 6 p.m. The event will include the viewing
 of a video about the north of Ireland. Matt Morrison,
 an eyewitness to Bloody Sunday, will be the featured
 speaker. Music is by the Hooligans. The Columbus Celtic
 Dancers will be there. Tickets at $10 in advance or $12
 at the door. Call David Fanning for information at
 614-488-3914.

 Philadelphia, PA: The Philadelphia Federation of Irish
 Societies will hold a Bloody Sunday commemoration
 demonstration from Noon to 2 p.m. in front of the city
 Hall. For more information contact Gerry O'Hare (609)
 848-3040. The Richmond, Va., unit of Irish Northern Aid
 will travel to Philadelphia to join the demonstration
 there.

 Seattle, WA: There will be a Bloody Sunday
 commemoration in Seattle on the day the British Army's
 "Black Watch" pipe

Economic Black-out on Monday (fwd)

[anzalone/starbird]

Here's an ambitious agenda at the last minute for you.
>FYI.  Here is a message from Rhodessa. -KH
>
>-- Forwarded message --
>Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:33:17 EST
>From: Rhodessa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Economic Black-out on Monday
>
>Dear Karin,
>
>  I am putting everyone on notice that a 'economic black-out' is being
>called in honor of the MLK holiday.  I and others are being forced to work a
>regular day due to the demand for bus service caused by businesses ignoring
>the holiday and having employees come to work as usual.  It is time to raise
>public awareness to the insult this is to people of color.  I ask everyone
>refuse to spend any money.  $O.00 dollars anywhere on Monday.  That goes
>double for black businesses who should be leading the way to respect the
>holiday.
>
> Rhodessa
>
>--

Re: Research -- Economics of Pornography?

[anzalone/starbird]

You might try COYOTE, the sex workers union in San Francisco. In that fine
union town the women who work at the Lusty Lady saloon are unionized and
represented by the Service Employees Union local 790. Since many of the sex
industry workers start as phone sex workers or strippers there is a lot of
overlap in the workforce and quantitative research is the more difficult
because of the industry custom of using noms du plume.

I had fleeting opportunity to meet with COYOTE when I was researching for
Labor Occupational Health Program the violence in the workplace handbook. I
wanted to include the sex industry since it indeed has the highest
workplace instance of violence for women (perhaps excepting homemakers).

The AIDS activists might also have some good emperical stuff.

Best of luck to you.

Ellen Starbird
Laney College

>At 18:09 1/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Hello --
>>
>>I'm writing the Pen-L list to ask for assistance with two specific
>>questions as part of my research for a book, tentatively entitled "Obscene
>>Profits : Becoming a Pornographer in the 21st Century" (scheduled for
>>publication by Routledge in Setp. 1998):
>>
>>1. Is anyone aware of any studies, papers, books, etc. that talk in detail
>>about the economics of pornography industry, including such issues as
>>wages, overhead, distributions costs, costs of government regulation, etc.?
>>; and
>>
>>2. Are there any similar materials which might talk about the role that
>>morality plays in an individual's decision to start a pornography business
>>or work in the industry?
>>
>>Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated and will be duly acknowledged.
>>Thanks.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Fred Lane
>>
>http://www.nina.com/gauntletfin.html
>accessed 20 Dec 97
>
>Frustrations of a Feminist Porn Star
>
>by Nina Hartley
>
>(During the legal wranglings resulting from my bust in Vegas in January
>1993, I was asked to contribute to The Gauntlet, a periodical devoted to
>free speech issues. This piece is an update of the first essay I wrote for
>publication in "Sex Work: Writings by Women In the Sex Industry," published
>in the late 1980's. I'd love to hear your feedback...)
>
>My Name is Nina Hartley.
>
>When this is published, I will have passed my 32nd birthday and my ninth
>anniversary as an active member of the sexual entertainment community,
>specifically the worlds of erotic dancing and explicit video. I am also a
>graduate nurse (BSN, magna cum laude, San Francisco State, class of '85); a
>secular Jew; a third-generation feminist; a happy bisexual and a member of
>a long-standing two-women-one-man triad of over ten years duration. I do
>not happen to be a survivor of abuse, drug addiction or incest. consciously
>chose, as a path to self knowledge, the exploration of sexuality in its
>many forms. Having been reared to celebrate the female anatomy in all its
>variation, I expected my experience in adult entertainment to be a positive
>one. I looked forward to a journey that would help me integrate the basic
>feminist credo of body acceptance into my day-to-day reality.
>
>As someone who was raised to be distrustful of male sexuality (Ivory-tower
>Berkeley in the '60's and '70's), I indulged my exhibitionism (an okay.
>feeling, according to the sex books of that time) and used erotic dancing
>and, later, explicit videos to demystify men's sexual nature and come to
>terms with my own. Sex work gave me an arena in which to work though my
>fear of men and their sexuality and I have not been disappointed in the
>path I have taken. I see the sex drive as a natural, healing and empowering
>force of nature (thanks to "liberating Masturbation: and the original "Our
>Bodies, Our Selves:). Being able to revel in the sheer joy of sex has
>developed my capacity for compassion and caring and my joy touches many
>others who are struggling to make sex a more comfortable part of their
>lives. Over the years, I've become privy to many intimate secrets usually
>reserved for doctors or counselors. Hundreds of adult consumers, motivated
>by the permission I give them to explore their sexuality in private, write
>to share their experiences with me. I'm honored by their trust. I've only
>just begun to realize the power and scope of female sexuality and I can't
>wait to see what the next nine years will bring! believe "feminist" is a
>self-applied label.
>
>I am angered that a few women, granted lots of coverage by the press
>because of their extreme views, are being touted as the only voice of
>feminism. I reject the notion that there is some secret feminist orthodoxy,
>some single standard of measuring who is a "real" feminist. If feminism is
>about the promotion of equality between women and men (socially,
>politically and economically), then I am one. If feminism is about the
>right of women to follow the paths of their lives with minimum outside
>interference, then I am one and proud of it. If feminism is about
>male-bashing or the fetishization of the concept of

Re: Marx on Native Americans

[anzalone/starbird]

I liked "Bingo Palace". I can't remember the woman's name who wrote it, she
also wrote Heart Medicine? (or Love Medicine?) or something like that and
"Beets... something" I know it's very current, were you looking for olden
days stories? I'll dig you up a better reference if you don't mind reading
about living people. Ellen

>Thanks to everyone who's supplied titles on Indians. Most have been about
>their decimation by the Europeans - I'm more interested in stuff about
>their social lives - work, kinship, property, etc. Any ideas?
>
>Doug

Re: "good" jobs

[anzalone/starbird]

Once you quantify what you consider a "good" job then you can check with
the Employment Development Dept. to see how many exist. They keep such
statistics available in their computer base.

Don't forget that many folks consider lack of supervision a better quality
in a job than "conceptualization of the work and its execution, jobs which
require real
>skill" (Truck drivers I'm told test out at a higher iq  than most workers
>and certainly used to get better pay than oh, say college instructors;
>doing your own thinking on the bosses time was one of the advantages
>Sweeney (?) [or the SEIU honcho guy before him I can't remember which head
>of SEIU last held a real job prior to assension] liked about being a
>janitor.)

Yours in Solidarity, Ellen

>Friends,
>
>Suppose that we took all of the jobs in the U.S. or any similar economy and
>asked, what fraction of these jobs are "good" jobs. By good I mean not just
>decent wages and benefits and reasonable hours (no doubt this eliminates a lot
>of jobs already) but jobs which allow the holder to engage significantly
>in both
>the conceptualization of the work and its execution, jobs which require real
>skill (I know that "skill" is a difficult concept).
>
>I do not think that the fraction can be very high.  What do others think?  Can
>anyone cite some current references on this subject?
>
>(Note: we may have covered this subject in the past, but I've forgotten
>what waw
>said!)
>
>michael yates

Re: U.S. growth

[anzalone/starbird]

Actually the gender gap, at least in income is not narrowing by BLS
statistics, it is widening. ellen

>Shawgi A. Tell reproduces every tired leftist cliche about the U.S. labor
>market in just three paragraphs, an impressive achievement.
>
>>I think it is necessary to avoid focusing on the appearance of
>>things and move directly to the essence of matters.  In terms of
>>unemployment, the so-called lowest unemployment rate in the last few
>>decades conceals numerous realities which have been thoroughly discussed
>>by many (e.g., Holly Sklar in Chaos or Community? 1995). If one sees only
>>4.6% unemployment without looking into the sort and kind of jobs being
>>created, forgets the bias of "official" data, focuses only on unemployment
>>as opposed to the jobless rate and so on then one will arrive at an
>>inaccurate impression of things.  One will think that things are
>>actually going well when in fact the opposite is the case.
>
>The point isn't that "things are actually going well" - the point is that
>they're a lot better than they were 5 years ago. Real wages are rising, and
>the race and gender gaps are narrowing. Sure lots of shit jobs are being
>created, but that's not the whole story, or you wouldn't be seeing a pickup
>in the average wage.
>
>>   For example, according to Dembo and Morehouse, the 1993 jobless
>>rate was nearly 14%.  They also conclude that "With each succeeding
>>recovery period, the *Jobless Rate* has fallen less and less" (The
>>Underbelly of the U.S. Economy: Joblessness and the Pauperization of Work
>>in America, 1994).
>
>Yes, the official unemployment rate understates reality, but it always has,
>and the trend has been down. And, if the jobless rate, no matter how you
>slice it, is at a 24-year low, then Dembo & Morehouse's claim is no longer
>true. I think this needs to be recognized, explained, and analyzed for its
>political significance.
>
>>   Besides other things the 4.6% unemployment rate masks the fact
>>that the productive forces continue to be destroyed by capitalism.
>>Technological developments are increasingly making the service sector look
>>more and more like the manufacturing sector.
>
>What does this mean? U.S. industrial production continues to rise, and
>manufacturing capacity (according to the Fed's industrial
>production/capacity utilization series) is expanding at the fastest rate in
>30 years. Besides, I thought capitalism was famous for expanding the
>productive forces at the expense of everything else.
>
>Doug

Re: A new Cuban cocktail?

[anzalone/starbird]

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:12:05 -0800 (PST)
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
From: Michael Eisenscher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Being Sued and Naming Names
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:43:39 EST
Reply-To: H-Net Labor History Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: H-Net Labor History Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: "Seth Wigderson, U Maine Augusta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:  Being Sued and Naming Names

Please reply directly to Albert Lannon in this very important matter. SW
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dear Colleagues:

 I'm asking you to read this rather long message in hopes that you
will then act on it.  The Labor Studies Department at Laney College in
Oakland is being sued and the coordinator, myself, is being asked to
inform on students who participated in legal and peaceful demonstrations.
Here's the story:

 A couple of years ago Laney tried out a Labor Studies class called
Organizing Across Borders: Unions in the Global Economy, taught by Ellen
Starbird. One of the aims was to introduce students to use of the internet
as a means of building global solidarity.  This was around the time when
the Liverpool dockers were fired and began their strike which has won
international support and solidarity actions.  The student found that the
dockers had no internet connection, so he telephoned them.

 The result is that when the SS Neptune Jade, loaded by the
unionbusters, arrived at the port of Oakland, California on September 28,
1997, there was a picket line there to meet them.  There were ongoing
demonstrations for several days, and the longshore workers, members of the
International Longshore and Warehouse Union, refused to cross the line.
The ship sailed to Vancouver, where workers refused to unload it, and then
to Yokohama, where it was again refused.  The ship was finally sold to
China.  Clearly this was an important action, hailed by Rep. Ron Dellums
as placing "a square focus on the new economic battle lines in which
global corporate alliances seek to use their transnational economic and
political power to divide and defeat organized labor and collective
bargaining."

 On the first day of the demonstrations, Sunday, September 28, a
Laney College Labor Studies student went to the site for about two hours
with the colorful banner of the Laney College Labor Studies Club.  The
employers, not knowing who was demonstrating, cited "radical militant
labor organizations, i.e. the Laney College Labor Studies group and John
Doe Organizations 1 - 12" when they went to court seeking an injunction on
September 29.  They did not get the injunction.  They did get a TRO on
September 30, citing Laney, the Labor Party, Gold Gate Chapter, the Peace
and Freedom Party, and two individuals, picket captain Robert Irminger (a
member of the Inland Boatmen's Union) and Jack Heyman, a member of
Longshore Local 10's executive board.

 Despite the fact that the Laney student's participation took place
on one occasion, prior to the TRO, the judge left Laney named in the
complaint when she made the restraining order permanent.

 The Peralta Community College District, of which Laney College is
part, said that their lawyers would not handle the case as the action was
not one endorsed or initiated by their Board of Trustees.  It was the
Peralta District that was served with the original summons.
 While taking this "hands-off" position, the administration at
Laney issued new rules for all student organizations:  no picketing,
boycotting or demonstrating in the name of the school, no off-campus
activities without the okay of the faculty advisor, and no use of the
banner which said "Laney College Labor Studies Club."

 The Club, in existence about two years as a duly-chartered campus
organization, has put on a number of successful campus events,
and over-filled two buses for the Farm Workers
strawberry march on Watsonville last spring.  At that time faculty,
students, and administrators, had no problems rallying around the Club's
banner.  The most recent event featured UNITE V.P. Katie Quan and former
prime minister of Haiti Claudette Werleigh, and filled the Laney Theatre.

 The attorneys for Yusen Terminals, Centennial Stevedoring, and the
Pacific Maritime Association are not dropping the issue.  They are
pursuing a contempt citation against picket captain Irminger, demanding
money and the names of everyone who participated in the demos.  They are
pursuing suits against the ILWU.  And they are pursuing their action for
damages against the Laney College Labor Studies "group," demanding Club
membership lists, minutes of meetings, and that I name everyone I know
that was at any of the demonstrations.

 The demand for interrogatories and production of documents went to
the Peralta District Risk Manager who passed them along to me saying
"please handle."

 As of today, I have demanded that the school administration take
up the fight on the bas

Re: Query: Parents-children income relationship

[anzalone/starbird]

How about "Schooling In Capitalist America" that I think comes out of
Harvard? on the question of the myth of the meritocracy... Ellen

>Anyone have good references on the relationship between the incomes of
>children and their parents. Said differently, are their any good
>empirical pieces on intergenerational class mobility?
>
>Jeff Fellows
>Prevention Effectiveness Fellow
>Division of Violence Prevention
>NCIPC, CDC
>Atlanta, GA

Re: FastTrack - LatAm view

[anzalone/starbird]

Is the Carribbean close enough for you? The former Prime Minister of Haiti
will be speaking at Laney College on Thursday, can you do a phone hook up
with KPFA? They will be interviewing her 8:30 am California time Thursday
morning. (I'm schleping her around Wednesday and Thursday because I'm such
an important person and I promised to clean my car.)

Eddie Rosario, LCLAA is honchoing the following day a conference sponsored
by the CA Labor Fed. to End NAFTA and Privitization. Eddie is a postal
worker and delegate to the S.F. Central Labor Council, (415) 681-5868.
But there may be delegates arriving early from all over So. and Central
America for the conference. Brazil is sending an especially huge
delegation. You might try and see if Eddie can get anybody on the horn at
(what is it a 2 hour difference?) 3pm? who is coming to attend his
conference. I believe all the delegates are staying at the Ramada in SF.

Bon chance,
Ellen Starbird
Labor Studies Laney College


>Any volunteers/nominations for someone to talk on my radio show this
>Thursday evening, 5-ish NYC time, about how the fast track defeat looks
>from Latin America?
>
>Doug
>
>--
>
>Doug Henwood
>Left Business Observer
>250 W 85 St
>New York NY 10024-3217 USA
>+1-212-874-4020 voice  +1-212-874-3137 fax
>email: 
>web: 

RE: [PEN-L] Re: income & race

[anzalone/starbird]

, excluding life or
>>>more sentences) is about 2.6 years.
>>
>>What is the date on that 2.6 year statistic? Mandatory sentencing is
>far
>>longer than 2.6 for crack the cocaine style used in non-white
>>communities.
>>
>>Not the type of statistics
>>>population trends are built upon. Sectoral shifts in hiring, firing,
>>and
>>>wage payments, and social spending cutbacks, may express themselves
>>>through changes in relative household incomes between and within
>>>racial/ethnic categories much like an aging population would tend to
>>>shift the homicide rate downward. Why all income quintiles are growing
>>>among black households, as Doug noted, implies that blacks at the high
>>>end of the income distribution may be benefitting from the larger
>>trends
>>>in the widening of income distribution (excluding existing wealth),
>and
>>>the lower quintiles may also be rising because of sectoral shifts
>>toward
>>>industries and occupations that are more highly represented by blacks.
>>>The declingin social safety nets may be pushing proportionally more
>>>minorities into the paid labor market. Of course, increasing earnings
>>>among former social support recipients doesn't mean they are
>monetarily
>>>better off.
>>
>>And would not the social support gang, like the incarcerated not have
>>shown
>>up on Doug's BLS statistics in the first place?
>>
>>Its a puzzle to me. ellen
>>
>>>
>>>Jeff Fellows
>>>
>>> --
>>>From: Gerald Levy
>>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>Subject: [PEN-L] Re: income & race
>>>Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 4:52PM
>>>
>>>Ellen (anzalone/starbird) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is it true that inmates incarcerated in prison are NOT counted as
>>>> households in your data?
>>>
>>>To be counted as being employed or unemployed in the US data, one must
>>>first be counted as being part of the labor force. But, the labor
>force
>>>is
>>>defined in such a way that if you are not "working for pay", then you
>>>must
>>>be "actively seeking paid employment." Since prisoners are not
>>"actively
>>>seeking paid employment", they are not counted as being part of the
>>>labor
>>>force or the unemployed. Aren't bourgeois statistics beautiful?
>>>
>>>> The white poor are still with us, but the Black poor are in the
>>>slammer.
>>>
>>>Huh? You don't actually believe that a majority of "Black poor are in
>>>the
>>>slammer", do you?
>>>
>>>> , the (free) Blacks are (statistically) thriving
>>>> economically under the Reagan-Bush-Clinton administrations.
>>>
>>>Huh? In what sense did "(free) Blacks" thrive since 1980?
>>>
>>>Jerry

RE: [PEN-L] Re: income & race

[anzalone/starbird]

ork is leaving the country, the last hired first fired
>rule of senority would not increase employment in a shrinking sector for
>the bottom of the senority list. I can't for the life of me believe that
>industrial jobs could be accountable for such a shift.
>
>If as I suggest these are the gents most likely to be unemployed
>clearing
>them from you stats would indeed paint a rosier picture of those who are
>left in your pool of consideration.
>
>>Yes, black males are imprisoned in much greater proportions than
>whites.
>>But this has always been the case. So, while imprisonment rates have
>>increased for both blacks and whites, and for blacks relative to
>whites,
>>I don't think the portion of the increase in the black incarceration
>>rate is large enough to make the labor scarcity argument work. In
>>addition, the average time served over all crimes, excluding life or
>>more sentences) is about 2.6 years.
>
>What is the date on that 2.6 year statistic? Mandatory sentencing is far
>longer than 2.6 for crack the cocaine style used in non-white
>communities.
>
>Not the type of statistics
>>population trends are built upon. Sectoral shifts in hiring, firing,
>and
>>wage payments, and social spending cutbacks, may express themselves
>>through changes in relative household incomes between and within
>>racial/ethnic categories much like an aging population would tend to
>>shift the homicide rate downward. Why all income quintiles are growing
>>among black households, as Doug noted, implies that blacks at the high
>>end of the income distribution may be benefitting from the larger
>trends
>>in the widening of income distribution (excluding existing wealth), and
>>the lower quintiles may also be rising because of sectoral shifts
>toward
>>industries and occupations that are more highly represented by blacks.
>>The declingin social safety nets may be pushing proportionally more
>>minorities into the paid labor market. Of course, increasing earnings
>>among former social support recipients doesn't mean they are monetarily
>>better off.
>
>And would not the social support gang, like the incarcerated not have
>shown
>up on Doug's BLS statistics in the first place?
>
>Its a puzzle to me. ellen
>
>>
>>Jeff Fellows
>>
>> --
>>From: Gerald Levy
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: [PEN-L] Re: income & race
>>Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 4:52PM
>>
>>Ellen (anzalone/starbird) wrote:
>>
>>> Is it true that inmates incarcerated in prison are NOT counted as
>>> households in your data?
>>
>>To be counted as being employed or unemployed in the US data, one must
>>first be counted as being part of the labor force. But, the labor force
>>is
>>defined in such a way that if you are not "working for pay", then you
>>must
>>be "actively seeking paid employment." Since prisoners are not
>"actively
>>seeking paid employment", they are not counted as being part of the
>>labor
>>force or the unemployed. Aren't bourgeois statistics beautiful?
>>
>>> The white poor are still with us, but the Black poor are in the
>>slammer.
>>
>>Huh? You don't actually believe that a majority of "Black poor are in
>>the
>>slammer", do you?
>>
>>> , the (free) Blacks are (statistically) thriving
>>> economically under the Reagan-Bush-Clinton administrations.
>>
>>Huh? In what sense did "(free) Blacks" thrive since 1980?
>>
>>Jerry

Re: Marx's Marxism?

[anzalone/starbird]

Howard Zimm quoted Marx in the context of his own McCarthy attack (on his
tenure as a professor?). I don't know the original citation, but I dimly
recall the reference can be found (in the forward?) of Zimm's "You can't be
Neutral on a Moving Train". Something to the effect that when asked if he
was a Marxist in a context where dismissal would be the reaction to an
answer in the affirmative, Zimm replied, that he would like to quote the
master himself Karl Marx, "I am not a Marxist." He then goes on to cite the
story of the quote from Karl Marx.

Apparently some useless piece of work mascarading as a revolutionary
invited Marx to attend a meeting of his group; whose principles Marx found
repugnant. The zealot in question then told Marx that he should attend the
meeting of the Marxist group, since he was the founder of Marxism. To which
Karl replied something to the effect, Do you honestly think that the idiocy
you preach and practice is Marxism?
When the zealous one said "Yes", Marx replied "Then I am not a Marxist."

I wasn't there and it could have been said different, but I think that's
the quote you're looking for.

>Has anyone got the reference & context for K Marx's reported
>denial that he was a Marxist?

Re: income & race

[anzalone/starbird]

Wow, that's cool, here's another maybe I just noticed:
What if metropolitan residents are disproportionately Afro-American and
whites are under represented as residents in the metropolitan area...


BLS DAILY REPORT, FRIDAY, OCTOBER 31, 1997

The average annual pay of workers in metropolitan areas rose 4 percent
from 1995 to 1996, according to preliminary data released by BLS.  In
the nation's 313 metropolitan areas, the average annual pay was $30,250,
up from $29,099 in 1995.  Average annual pay for the nation as a whole -
combining both metropolitan and nonmetropolitan areas - was $28,945 in
1996.  New York topped  BLS' list of metropolitan areas with the highest
average pay, at $45,028 in 1996 (Daily Labor Report, page D-1).

>On Sun, November 2, 1997 at 12:44:35 (-0800) anzalone/starbird writes:
>>If so then the 1986-1997 "War on (Black American men mascarading itself as
>>a War on) Drugs" might account for a dilution/removal of the most
>>employment vulnerable from you statistically pool.
>>
>>If prisoners don't count, then those Black men who would have been most
>>likely to have "driven down the average" by being unemployed the households
>>by being listed as the most poor households of your Black community are
>>simply not on your ledger at all.
>>
>>And if indeed, the majority of the prison growth which has been astonishing
>>in the years of your inquiry has been directly largely against the most
>>economically vulnerable of the Black men, prehaps the mass incarceration
>>movement known as the war on drugs can be spotted through your income data.
>>
>>Asuming the Black prisoners are absent from your statistical pool of Black
>>households. (I believe the U.S. now has more African Americans incarcerated
>>per capita then the DeKlerk administration of South African apartheid.
>>
>>The white poor are still with us, but the Black poor are in the slammer.
>>Thus whites are poorer, the (free) Blacks are (statistically) thriving
>>economically under the Reagan-Bush-Clinton administrations.
>
>I thumbed through the Statistical Abstract of 1996 and came up with
>this:
>
>Jail Inmates, by Race and Detention Status: 1978 to 1994
>
>   22 ++---+---++---++---++--++
>  ++   ++   ++   ++   +
>   20 ++ ###***
>  | #   #     |
>  |  Black  ** # *** #####|
>   18 ++ White  ## #*   * **  #
>  |   # **|
>   16 ++   * ++
>  | ##*   |
>  |   ##  *   |
>   14 ++    **   ++
>  |   **  |
>   12 ++ # ***   ++
>  |     ***   |
>  |   **  |
>   10 ++ *   ++
>  ### |
>8 ++  ***++
>  |   |
>   +   ++   ++   ++   +
>6 ++---+---++---++---++--++
>1978 19801982 19841986 19881990 1992   1994
>
>
>Source: _Statistical Abstract of the United States 1996_, p. 219.
>
>Data:
>
>Year White  Black
> -- --
>1978  89418  65104
>1985 151403 102646
>1988 166302 141979
>1989 201372 185910
>1990 186989 174335
>1991 190333 187618
>1992 191632 195156
>1993 180914 203463
>1994 183762 206278
>
>
>Bill

RE: [PEN-L] Re: income & race

[anzalone/starbird]

But has it not gotten dramatically worse in the last ten years due to so
called drug crimes? My last read on the situation was an incredible 1 out
of 3 Afro American men are incarcerated, on parole or on probation.

33% is a significant chunk of any population.

I don't claim that I've researched this, we are all just spitting in the
wind here, but the sentencing has gone up during the same time frame of
Doug's inquiry and no other intervening factor of such breadth came to my
mind. Industrial work is leaving the country, the last hired first fired
rule of senority would not increase employment in a shrinking sector for
the bottom of the senority list. I can't for the life of me believe that
industrial jobs could be accountable for such a shift.

If as I suggest these are the gents most likely to be unemployed clearing
them from you stats would indeed paint a rosier picture of those who are
left in your pool of consideration.

>Yes, black males are imprisoned in much greater proportions than whites.
>But this has always been the case. So, while imprisonment rates have
>increased for both blacks and whites, and for blacks relative to whites,
>I don't think the portion of the increase in the black incarceration
>rate is large enough to make the labor scarcity argument work. In
>addition, the average time served over all crimes, excluding life or
>more sentences) is about 2.6 years.

What is the date on that 2.6 year statistic? Mandatory sentencing is far
longer than 2.6 for crack the cocaine style used in non-white communities.

Not the type of statistics
>population trends are built upon. Sectoral shifts in hiring, firing, and
>wage payments, and social spending cutbacks, may express themselves
>through changes in relative household incomes between and within
>racial/ethnic categories much like an aging population would tend to
>shift the homicide rate downward. Why all income quintiles are growing
>among black households, as Doug noted, implies that blacks at the high
>end of the income distribution may be benefitting from the larger trends
>in the widening of income distribution (excluding existing wealth), and
>the lower quintiles may also be rising because of sectoral shifts toward
>industries and occupations that are more highly represented by blacks.
>The declingin social safety nets may be pushing proportionally more
>minorities into the paid labor market. Of course, increasing earnings
>among former social support recipients doesn't mean they are monetarily
>better off.

And would not the social support gang, like the incarcerated not have shown
up on Doug's BLS statistics in the first place?

Its a puzzle to me. ellen

>
>Jeff Fellows
>
> --
>From: Gerald Levy
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: [PEN-L] Re: income & race
>Date: Sunday, November 02, 1997 4:52PM
>
>Ellen (anzalone/starbird) wrote:
>
>> Is it true that inmates incarcerated in prison are NOT counted as
>> households in your data?
>
>To be counted as being employed or unemployed in the US data, one must
>first be counted as being part of the labor force. But, the labor force
>is
>defined in such a way that if you are not "working for pay", then you
>must
>be "actively seeking paid employment." Since prisoners are not "actively
>seeking paid employment", they are not counted as being part of the
>labor
>force or the unemployed. Aren't bourgeois statistics beautiful?
>
>> The white poor are still with us, but the Black poor are in the
>slammer.
>
>Huh? You don't actually believe that a majority of "Black poor are in
>the
>slammer", do you?
>
>> , the (free) Blacks are (statistically) thriving
>> economically under the Reagan-Bush-Clinton administrations.
>
>Huh? In what sense did "(free) Blacks" thrive since 1980?
>
>Jerry

Re: income & race

[anzalone/starbird]

Has there been a decrease in Black teenage unemployment? ellen

>In a message dated 97-11-01 20:09:26 EST, (Doug, er, whoever) writes:
>
>>Obviously an unemployment rate below 5% should help black workers a lot,
>>but why are the bottom quintile of white households losing income (-4.3%
>>between 1989 and 1996) while the bottom quintile of blacks (who are much
>>poorer than whites in the bottom quintile) is up 5.2%. That's a difference
>>of nearly 10 percentage points in just 7 years, which strikes me as pretty
>>significant.
>Just to throw an undocumented thought or two into the fray -- I have to
>assume that a significant portion of the bottom quintile of black households
>are headed by black women.  Could this increase come from: the fact that
>women, particularly black women, are the only increasing demographic category
>in union membership?  From the fact that black women are employed at a higher
>rate than black men (so many of whom are in jail)?  From the increase in
>minimum wage: minimum wage workers being more than 60% female?  From the
>decrease in black teenage unemployment -- adding second incomes to these
>households?
>
>>I have to run & fill out my school application forms now.
>Does LBO provide tuition refunds?
>
>maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: income & race

[anzalone/starbird]

Hi Doug!

I'm not sure who makes it into the count of Black households, and so I ask
this as much out of ignorance as I hope, to be of some help on directing
the inquiry on income and race in a positive direction (as I can be no help
in providing a packaged answer, besides idunno.)

Is it true that inmates incarcerated in prison are NOT counted as
households in your data?

If so then the 1986-1997 "War on (Black American men mascarading itself as
a War on) Drugs" might account for a dilution/removal of the most
employment vulnerable from you statistically pool.

If prisoners don't count, then those Black men who would have been most
likely to have "driven down the average" by being unemployed the households
by being listed as the most poor households of your Black community are
simply not on your ledger at all.


And if indeed, the majority of the prison growth which has been astonishing
in the years of your inquiry has been directly largely against the most
economically vulnerable of the Black men, prehaps the mass incarceration
movement known as the war on drugs can be spotted through your income data.


Asuming the Black prisoners are absent from your statistical pool of Black
households. (I believe the U.S. now has more African Americans incarcerated
per capita then the DeKlerk administration of South African apartheid.

The white poor are still with us, but the Black poor are in the slammer.
Thus whites are poorer, the (free) Blacks are (statistically) thriving
economically under the Reagan-Bush-Clinton administrations.

If prisoners ARE counted in your U.S. income figures, then as they say on
Saturday night live, nevermind.

In an effort to be helpful,

Ellen Starbird


>I've just been looking at the 1996 U.S. income figures. Median incomes of
>black households have risen from 58.2% of white ones in 1992 to 63.2% in
>1996, the highest on record. The black poverty rate is also the lowest on
>record. Obviously the gap is still very wide, but has anyone else noticed
>this trend? What's happening?
>
>Doug
>
>--
>
>Doug Henwood
>Left Business Observer
>250 W 85 St
>New York NY 10024-3217 USA
>+1-212-874-4020 voice  +1-212-874-3137 fax
>email: 
>web: 

Re: VOTE SCHEDULED ON FAST TRACK NOVEMBER 7

[anzalone/starbird]

Drive a steak through it's heart now lads, that's the best. Then there'll
be no temptation next year. ellen

>> Date:  Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:53:43 -0800
>> Reply-to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> From:  "michael perelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject:   Re: VOTE SCHEDULED ON FAST TRACK NOVEMBER 7
>
>>
>> Max said that it was dead.  Why would they bother to vote on it?
>
>I said it was on its deathbed.  Latest scuttlebut is
>the other side hopes a vote will get undecideds
>off the fence and onto their side.  We'll see.
>
>Like Dracula, it will rise again next year or thereafter
>(more likely thereafter), but since Congress plans to
>adjourn by about November 21, if it goes down on
>11/7 it's probably dead till 1999.
>
>MBS
>
>
>
>===
>Max B. SawickyEconomic Policy Institute
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]  1660 L Street, NW
>202-775-8810 (voice)  Ste. 1200
>202-775-0819 (fax)Washington, DC  20036
>http://tap.epn.org/sawicky
>
>Opinions above do not necessarily reflect the views
>of anyone associated with the Economic Policy
>Institute other than this writer.
>===

Re: Marx making a comeback?

[anzalone/starbird]

It was actually Adam Smith who first summised that labor produces all
wealth. David Ricardo, arguing against the corn laws of England proceeded
Marx in making that same deduction; and invented the labor theory of value.
Ricardo quoted Smith, "The real price of everything...is the toil and
trouble of acquiring it...Labour was the first price-the original
purchase-money that was paid for all things." which I think is on page 6 of
Ricardo's rebuttal to Malthus. And that's the way it was in 1815.

Chucky gets to be the poster boy for labor-produces-all-wealth rebuttals,
because he's so cuddly and beloved, and wellred. Ellen (do I win some
prize as a bait raised crank?) Starbird. The laney college labor studies
club scares stevedores!

>You know, the single thing that finally pissed me off enough to get me to
>read Marx's  and see for myself so many years ago -- like so
>many others, in a small group of similarly disgruntled economics grad'
>students -- was this phrase I kept seeing in all the textbooks & hearing
>from all my prof's (and I quote here from the original e-mail text, written
>by Sif Schniad? Michael Perelman? whom...?):  "Marx was clearly mistaken
>on several points, including his theory that labor is the sourc
>e of value
>and his predictions about the demise of capitalism and the withering away
>of the state."  Yep, I got tired of the same all-too-easy and
>all-too-predictable
>dismissal of the old guy as having been right about so-and-so but, as we now
>know from the superior vantage point of economic theory in this advanced
>age, wrong about these other, let's face it, far more important matters.
>And now, after all these years I still haven't learned (perhaps pen-l'ers
>will help me here) just what is t
>he source of value if not labor? and exactly
>why will capitalism, unlike previous systems, live forever? (OK, never mind
>the one about the withering of the state).  Any help on this?  (Yeah, there's
> some crank who'll rise to the bait!)
>
>Cheers -- Eric Schutz
>

Re: Info on the Economics of the Family, Present and Future?

[anzalone/starbird]

Try the Labor Project for Working Families in at U.C. Berkeley.

Ellen Starbird

>I'm to appear on a local community college panel discussing the economics
>of the family, present and future.  The other two participants are a
>sociologist and an historian.  I would be grateful for any data sources,
>summaries, studies, etc. which might be of use.  Please send them to me
>personally unless you think they are of general interest.
>
>Many thanks.
>Larry Shute
>--
>Laurence Shute Voice: 909-869-38500
>Department of EconomicsFAX:   909-869-6987
>California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
>3801 West Temple Avenue
>Pomona, CA  91768-4070   USA   e-mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>---

Laney College Instructor Targeted by Shipping Firm: Won't besilenced!

[anzalone/starbird]

I got a very nervous call today from one of my students, speaking of
actions on behalf of the Liverpool  Dockers; it seems the school
administration where I work is investigating my participation in the picket
for the Liverpool Dockers at Oakland's port. I may be sending out a shout
for help myself come the 14th of October. Seems in a fit of fury over the
Neptune Jade being turned into the Flying Dutchmen once the Oakland ILWU
refused to unload her, her Bosses are going after myself as a picketer.

It seems that the Laney College Labor Studies Dept. was named as a
plaintiff in their unsuccessful attempt to get an injunction against the
menacing picketline down long enough to unload the cargo in Oakland.

 When the cargo was refused everywhere up the coast and they set sail for
Japan the owners then sent a summons to my boss, Peralta Community College
District in a McCartheyesque attempt to jeopardize my position there as an
instructor. (I'm the advisor for the Laney College Labor Studies Club.)

My direct supervisor is a brick of course (Albert V. Lannon) and he's been
told there's some paperwork (lawsuit for damages against the school?) he
will get copies of shortly that require me to appear in Superior Court
(Oakland) 10/14 at 10 am.

There's no serious legal threat I don't suppose, provided we get a judge
with a working familiarity of the first amendment of the constitution, but
I will be asking the teacher's union to send in a lawyer. The real
motivation seems to be to get the school bureacrats scared enough to give
me a second look before I get offered work next semester. (We teacher part
timers have no job security semester to semester, our teacher's union,
still suffering the legacy of Shanker, has a pretty weak history for the
part timers.)

In the U.S. baseball jargon, we call that a brush back; the pitcher throws
a fastball capable of causing a concusion to the batters head, to move him
away from the plate, and into a position from which scoring is impossible.
Clearly the bosses think that the can persecute the community solidarity
folks and "send a message" that they will retaliate in the future as a way
of keeping others from positioning themselves to score one for the
Liverpool Dockers.

I think this tactic will serve them ill. In fact I intend to make a point
of it. I will be calling on everybody to help of course. I may need others
to show up in court 10/14 if indeed they try to preceed with this farce,
and I cheerfully intend to find a lawyer to countersue for damages, if I
suffer so much as broken toenail. I regret I may also have to ask those of
you who are already overcommitted to write letters of support etc., to the
school. If you have heard of this tactic being employed elsewhere on the
pickets in other areas, please let me know.

At the moment I just want to send the word that I MAY need help. Until I
know more I don't want to causes any panic. But I'll keep you posted as
more is revealed. 

Ellen Starbird, Laney College Labor Studies Program (510)
464-3210

[PEN-L:12718] Re: Question: The USSR and the Great Depression

[anzalone/starbird]

>During most U.S. depression, capital has succeeded in preserving part of
>its prior gains by bearing down harder on workers, farmers, etc.  Such was
>not the case during the Great Depression.
>
>Was there any reason,

None come to mind, but other possible variables could include:

Greater urbanization than pre WWI? Crowd density deterent to mass evictions etc?

The degree of unionization post WWI (it was an all time high, largely due
to the labor shortage created by WWI)

Some other change brought on by WWI? For example, getter military prowess
among the working classes, many now had guns from their service, and knew
how to use them. This was new for only some Americans, but could make a
difference in degree of "bearing down harder" . ("How you gonna keep them
down...after they've seen Paree?" ...and learned to shoot)

Greater liberation among women, more of them in the labor pool than previous?

other than the existence of an alternative system,
>that made these concessions possible?
>--
>Michael Perelman
>Economics Department
>California State University
>Chico, CA 95929
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>916-898-5321
>916-898-5901 fax

[PEN-L:12498] Re: travels

[anzalone/starbird]

>Friends,
>
>My wife and I are going to be driving cross country starting this Monday.  We
>should hit the west coast in Seattle in about a week.  then we are going down
>the coast to LA and then winding our way back.  I've got an 800 number
>connection to the internet, so I can be reached by email.
>
>The AFL-CIO is in Pittsburgh this next week, and there is a teach-in
>tomorrow.
>I'm the chair of a panel on "what's new in the new labor movement?"  I've been
>asked to ask the "hard" questions.  What would you ask or bring up for
>discussion if you were me?

Hard questions re: organizing...the labor movement has concentrated
resources on organizing, but seems to emphasize staff hires instead of time
off for members who can then be paid by the union to organize. Although the
election results seem to favor union members over hirelings, the movement
continues to prefer to professionalize organizing...Why?

re: international solidarity...Why are we in the labor movement the last to
eschew the cold war? Is there any real movement to change our approach to
international solidarity instead of pro-US government domination? Have any
of the CIA double dippers been discharged from AIFLD?

That ought to piss somebody off...

>
>Anyone out there in the west wants to buy me a drink, let me know!
>
>michael yates

[PEN-L:12496] Re: Shout

[anzalone/starbird]

Love to stand you for a round! I teach in sf on monday nights, but can be
in town early to goof off a bit from 3-6:30 and I teach at Laney on Wed.
most other evening are good (free). If we get Alan (m' better alf) to the
kitchen I can even offer a decent home cooked meal, should you be road
weary by then. Call me: (510) 268-9273

ellen starbird

>Friends,
>
>My wife and I are going to be driving cross country starting this Monday.  We
>should hit the west coast in Seattle in about a week.  then we are going down
>the coast to LA and then winding our way back.  I've got an 800 number
>connection to the internet, so I can be reached by email.
>
>The AFL-CIO is in Pittsburgh this next week, and there is a teach-in
>tomorrow.
>I'm the chair of a panel on "what's new in the new labor movement?"  I've been
>asked to ask the "hard" questions.  What would you ask or bring up for
>discussion if you were me?
>
>Anyone out there in the west wants to buy me a drink, let me know!
>
>michael yates

[PEN-L:12411] Re: the beautiful poor

[anzalone/starbird]

I think it is true that the (catholic) church has not always been
monolithic on the subject of the poor. (Or women for that matter; St.
Bernadette the patron saint of Ireland for instance ran abbys and performed
at least one abortion, two unusual things the church today would not have
smiled upon). The constraint against speaking other than the party line I
was trying to point out for Sr. Nirama is new since the Bishops met in
South America (some twenty years ago) and declared that the role of the
church should be empowerment for the poor.

The post JohnPaul popes have been trying to rein 'em in ever since.  The
Jesuits (the marine corp of the church) have always been a bit of a handful
in the discipline department for the papa. Sometimes this is good, since
they are usually in out of the way places and the church heirarchy will
often shrug 'em off. Politically the Jesuit orders are all over the map,
though and nothing comes to mind off hand that would betray a history of
Jesuit feminism.

>On Tue, September 16, 1997 at 18:41:16 (-0700) [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>In a message dated 97-09-16 06:08:05 EDT, [Bill Lear] write[s]:
>>
>>>What about in Central America?  How did the Jesuits relate to the
>>>Catholic hierarchy, and to the women and the poor there?
>>
>>In case you forgot, the original topic was statements made by the nun
>>replacing Sister Teresa in India.  If your suggestion is to list catholic
>>offenses against women world wide, then I would be doing nothing but writing
>>email for the next few months or years.  If you would like to take up the
>>project of specifying every country where catholic offenses against women
>>have taken place, be my guest.  maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>In case you forgot, it was you who brought the topic far beyond its
>original focus with the following claim:
>
>However, I certainly agree that catholicism always puts the most
>backward/patriarchal spin on any local culture.
>
>My suggestion was not to list catholic offenses against women
>worldwide, my question was, I thought, quite transparent: How did the
>Jesuits behave relative to this Pope-centered monstrosity while under
>attack from the U.S.?  Did they break with the women-bashing tradition
>of the catholic hierarchy in order to defend themselves and the
>oppressed?  Did they break with this tradition at all?  Was the
>injunction to exercise a preferential option for the poor a selective
>one which maintained the obnoxious, traditional misogyny?  Was it, in
>short, true that they put put the sort of spin you mentioned on the
>local culture, or did they fight against this tendency?
>
>
>Bill

[PEN-L:12352] Re: the beautiful poor

[anzalone/starbird]

For clarification: My remarks were intended to remind our colleague of the
Catholic church hierarchy requirements that clerics and nuns spout the
party line. Sr. Nirmala was responding as per the requirement of her oath
of office to a question about abortion. As a nun she was not "free" to make
a remark outside of the peremeters of Catholic churches official line.

She may also be a Brahmin, or a Raiders fan for all I know, but I think she
spoke not out of a culturally Indian perspective (which you who are more
aware than I may feel free to attack) but out of her office as the
spokesperson for the convent founded by the now dead Teresa.

In either event I believe it is anyone's perrogative to point out the
feminist question.  And while it is true that the leading cause of death
last year in India for women was burning, the leading cause of death in the
workplace in California for the last two years was ALSO violence,
perdominantly at the hands of a disgruntled former (male) lover/spouse, and
only occasionally by a sexual harrasser that the company had failed to
discipline.




>Anthony P D'Costa wrote:
>
>>Now Doug, I thought you liked numbers, especially as they pertain to
>>ratios (%):).  How about getting the stats on widow burning?  This is an
>>old "internal" versus "external" debate.  An understanding of social
>>change in India informs us that local institutions have interacted with
>>those introduced from the outside.  There is a significant variation
>>across regions: dowry deaths seem to be taking place in northern Hindi
>>speaking belt (centered around Delhi and other urban centers).
>>Paradoxically it is associated with the middle classes.  As for widow
>>burning you need to update your information.  The last case I
>>heard was in the 1980s, in a village in rajasthan, perhaps
>>one of the most economically underdeveloped state.
>>
>>As for restrictions on property ownership it is still a
>>problem.  The institution of patriarchy will not be easy to
>>eliminate.
>
>This, and an offlist communication, make me worry that I've been
>misunderstood. I thought the original posting that I was reacting to
>(appended below) overstated the case, treating sexism and callousness
>towards the poor as purely western impositions. I'm not trying to excuse
>anything, or divert attention from the crimes of imperialists.
>
>Doug
>
>
>> >The way to say it without sounding like a chauvanist is to say it like a
>> >feminist. There is no cultural basis for asserting that Sr. Nirmala is
>> >acting out of an Indian cultural perspective. The beauty of culture is its
>> >adaptability. The Indian pantheon of religions include many female deities,
>> >and their is no Hindu sanction against abortion. The cultural imperialism
>> >of Europe and the patriarchy of Roman Catholicism (objected to by most
>> >Catholic women I might add) is what Sr. Nirmala is dutifully regergitating
>> >as per the requirements of subservience in her Catholic church heirarchy.
>> >
>> >The rigidity of the backward patriarachal Euro-Centrated position you find
>> >objectionable in Sr. Nirmala comes from Rome and hundreds of years of
>> >Vatican mysogynist jibberish. It hails from no where else.

[PEN-L:12351] Re: language vs. thinking

[anzalone/starbird]

Why on earth would you think, even using your own analysis, that words not
acted on are less significant than deeds; that the work building a building
across the way is LESS significant than you class room lecture? ellen
starbird

>Ricardo writes notes that I wrote > that depending on one's definitions one
>may separate
>thought and language. That's true, but some definitions are closer to the
>truth than others. Even if we define thinking per se as something that
>"occurs within an individual's brain" (a very liberal view, I might add)
>such private thinking still requires the use of language. <
>
>What's a different, and more accurate, definition of thinking than the one
>I provided? What's a non-liberal definition of thinking? Why was my
>(admittedly incomplete) definition of thinking liberal? do we reject all
>things liberal?
>
>> Just try thinking without words. Chess too involves language; how can you
>play (think) without knowing the rules (words, symbols) of chess?<
>
>This misses the point. Thinking -- including that involved with
>chess-playing -- definitely _uses_ words, so that thinking _without_ words
>is probably impossible. But that doesn't mean that language is the only
>tool that thinking uses, which would make thinking and language well-nigh
>identical. In fact, I bet that if one doesn't use language to define the
>spatial relationships between the pieces on the chessboard, it makes it
>easier to play chess. ("the white King is at Queen Knight's third, there's
>a friendly pawn immediately past it, etc., etc.)
>
>In addition to words, our minds use intuition, spacial vision, etc. Just
>as, according to Howard Gardner, there are 8 kinds of intelligence, the
>mind is multi-dimensional. It can't be reduced to one dimension, such as
>language.
>
>> No words can be expressed without thinking; all words carry meaning. It
>is just that some people think little when they talk. <
>
>I agree. But there's more going on that simply thinking.
>
>>I agree that ideas which are not put into action have little effect on
>history. But this does not mean that you can separate actions from words;
>it simply means that some ideas are put into actions whereas others are not. <
>
>I agree with this.
>
>In addition, a clarifying note: the expression of words (on paper or in
>speech or electronically) is a kind of action (social practice). There are,
>however, some types of action that are more important in terms of their
>impact on the historical process than others. My lecturing in the
>classroom, for example, is less important than the work being done outside
>my office window (at this moment) digging the foundation for a new building.
>
>in pen-l solidarity,
>
>Jim Devine   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://clawww.lmu.edu/fall%201997/ECON/jdevine.html
>Econ. Dept., Loyola Marymount Univ.
>7900 Loyola Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90045-8410 USA
>310/338-2948 (daytime, during workweek); FAX: 310/338-1950
>"Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti." (Go your own way
>and let people talk.) -- K. Marx, paraphrasing Dante A.

[PEN-L:12321] Re: The trouble with China

[anzalone/starbird]

>I culled this from the Economist
>
>China's leaders agree that the SOEs remain technologically backward; that
>the firms have insupportable obligations to look after their employees from
>cradle to grave, paying for schools, hospitals, pensions and so forth;
>
>What could be more inefficient that paying for schools, hospitals and
>pensions?

The inefficiency of lowered morale of workers who know they won't be able
to attend to their children, or themselves in their hour of debilitating
need. ellen starbird

>
>--
>Michael Perelman
>Economics Department
>California State University
>Chico, CA 95929
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>916-898-5321
>916-898-5901 fax

[PEN-L:12320] Re: the beautiful poor

[anzalone/starbird]

The way to say it without sounding like a chauvanist is to say it like a
feminist. There is no cultural basis for asserting that Sr. Nirmala is
acting out of an Indian cultural perspective. The beauty of culture is its
adaptability. The Indian pantheon of religions include many female deities,
and their is no Hindu sanction against abortion. The cultural imperialism
of Europe and the patriarchy of Roman Catholicism (objected to by most
Catholic women I might add) is what Sr. Nirmala is dutifully regergitating
as per the requirements of subservience in her Catholic church heirarchy.

The rigidity of the backward patriarachal Euro-Centrated position you find
objectionable in Sr. Nirmala comes from Rome and hundreds of years of
Vatican mysogynist jibberish. It hails from no where else.

Ellen Starbird

>I am not sure how to say this without sounding like a cultural chauvanist,
>buuut, one of the most frightening things about someone like Sister Nirmala
>is that her strong positions on things like abortion and poverty simply
>reinforce some of the most negative gender stereotypes for women and children
>in India and around the world.  Poor women are poor by the 'grace of god',
>and 'must accept' their physiological reproductive role as the primary
>guidance for all their actions while on this earth.  The subordination of
>women in 'natural' and 'god'given'.  Now, if someone wants to become a nun
>and accept this, that's fine with me, but I cringe when they shout such
>suppression out for the rest of the world to emulate.
>maggie coleman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>In a message dated 97-09-13 16:31:13 EDT, Doug writes:
>
>>Mother Teresa's successor, a Brahmin-born Nepali now known as Sister
>>Nirmala, seems more frankly appalling than her predecessor. From the NYT
>>story by Barbara Crossette - web version (the print version ran something
>>had the Brahmin ID right after one of her remarks on the beauty of poverty):
>>
>>
>>At a news conference Friday, Sister Nirmala reaffirmed a few of her
>>predecessor's more controversial tenets. She said that abortion was
>>unthinkable even in cases of rape. And she said that she, like Mother
>>Teresa, was not interested in what caused poverty, which she described as
>>"beautiful," or in changing the social environment in which it thrives.
>>
>>"Poverty will always exist," Sister Nirmala said. "We want the poor to see
>>poverty in the right way - to accept it and believe that the Lord will
>>provide."
>>
>>
>>Doug

[PEN-L:12292] Re: WWW at UCLA

[anzalone/starbird]

I did not get to see the article to which you refer in the Times either if
you'd like to forward it to me I'd appreicate it.

ellen starbird

>As one who has been engaged in teaching on the internet for some two
>years, I'm glad this article from the NYT was posted for the benefit of
>those of us who do not get to see the Times. I believe many of the issues
>raised in this article need to be considered by the profession in great
>detai. One major way in which teaching on the net can enhance education
>was not mentioned in that story. Currently, with the support of UNESCO,
>here at AUP, in Paris, are engaged in developing a network among several
>European universities and their counterparts in the developing nations
>where shortage of qualified faculty is a major constraint on their
>expansion of higher education.
>
>I sincerely appreciate any comments or assistance from colleagues on
>PEN-L in this respect.
>
>Regards,
>
>
>
>A. S. Fatemi
>Professor of Economics
>The American University of Paris
>102 rue Saint Dominique
>75007 Paris
>
>Tel:   (33) 01 40 62 06 40
>Fax:   (33) 01 47 53 88 03
>http://www.Fatemi.com
>
>
>E-MAIL SAVES TREES!

[PEN-L:11895] Economics & History

[anzalone/starbird]

>Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 16:26:50 -0700
>To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (anzalone/starbird)
>Subject:Economics & History
>
>Two labor studies courses: Economics and California Labor History are
>offered Monday night at 4th and Mission. They are at room 318 and 319
>respectively. Worth 3 units each the courses run each Monday night from 7
>pm - 9:45 until December 15th.
>
>Both courses are transferable, and the Economics course satisfies a core
>requirement for a degree in Labor Studies.
>
>Currently both courses are underenrolled and will be closed if they do not
>attract four more students by Monday August 25th. If they do not make
>their enrollment cuota, the administration could wittle the six units out
>of the Labor studies program indefinately; making that much less education
>available for working class scholars and rank and file activists. Please
>help if you can! If you have always thought you would take a class
>someday, make it Monday.
>
>Financial aid and scholarships are available, please show up if you can
>enroll. If you are even mildly interested call: (415) 267-6550 and speak
>to Bill Shields.
>