On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 09:12:47PM -0400, Rob Kinyon wrote:
: On 10/19/05, Nate Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: My concern is that we're solving problems that don't really exist in
: real-world Perl usage. Are there really two competing authors of DBI?
: Or, for any product, do two people
On Wed, Oct 19, 2005 at 03:58:17PM -0700, Nate Wiger wrote:
: Larry Wall wrote:
: This is one of those accomodations to the real world, like everyone
: agreeing on a standard URI format. We're really trying to keep
: these module names close to what you'd see as the name of, say,
: the
I don't know how long this EuroOSCON net is going to stay up, so I'll be
brief. I think we're having a new class sigil. Where we've been
writing ::T, that will revert to meaning an existing class T that
we just might not see the declaration of for dynamic reasons. Instead,
the new sigil is the
On 10/20/05 10:56 AM, Larry Wall wrote:
I don't know how long this EuroOSCON net is going to stay up, so I'll be
brief. I think we're having a new class sigil. Where we've been
writing ::T, that will revert to meaning an existing class T that
we just might not see the declaration of for
Larry Wall skribis 2005-10-20 7:56 (-0700):
the new sigil is the cent sign, so ::T is now written ¢T instead.
1. What does it look like? I've never used a cent sign, and have seen
several.
2. How can it be typed with X character composition, vim's digraphs and
major international keyboards?
Juerd skribis 2005-10-20 17:03 (+0200):
3. What is the ASCII equivalent?
Suggestion: 1c
'c' is an invalid character in numbers, and currently only numbers can
begin with a digit.
1cFoo
The 1 provides an extra visual hint of the cheapness of the class.
Juerd
--
Juerd skribis 2005-10-20 17:03 (+0200):
4. Why not ^, which is available?
Or the euro symbol, which also has a C in it. It doesn't always have to
be American ;) It's in iso-8859-15, which is compatible enough with
iso-8859-1 to support ¥ and both « and ». (I hope those turn out as Y,
and 's
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 07:56:09AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
I don't know how long this EuroOSCON net is going to stay up, so I'll be
brief. I think we're having a new class sigil. Where we've been
writing ::T, that will revert to meaning an existing class T that
we just might not see the
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:17:57PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
Juerd skribis 2005-10-20 17:03 (+0200):
4. Why not ^, which is available?
Or the euro symbol, which also has a C in it. It doesn't always have to
be American ;) It's in iso-8859-15, which is compatible enough with
iso-8859-1 to support
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:21:53AM -0500, Steve Peters wrote:
: On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 07:56:09AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
: I don't know how long this EuroOSCON net is going to stay up, so I'll be
: brief. I think we're having a new class sigil. Where we've been
: writing ::T, that will
Steve Peters skribis 2005-10-20 10:32 (-0500):
The idea of punishing programmers who choose to use certain operating system
or locales just doesn't seem right to me.
All non-ASCII operators have ASCII equivalents:
¥ Y
«
»
I'm sure ¢ will have its equivalent too.
(It's
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:32:14AM -0500, Steve Peters wrote:
: The idea of punishing programmers who choose to use certain operating system
: or locales just doesn't seem right to me.
That's why we provide ugly ASCII workarounds for all of them. We just
haven't decided what the appropriate ugly
More info. ¢T is a scalar variable just like $T, but enforces a
class view, so you can use it as a class parameter, and pass any
object to it, but only access the classish aspects of the object.
The only other big difference is that you can use it in the class
syntactic slot, so it's legal to say
On 10/20/05 11:37 AM, Larry Wall wrote:
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:32:14AM -0500, Steve Peters wrote:
: The idea of punishing programmers who choose to use certain operating system
: or locales just doesn't seem right to me.
That's why we provide ugly ASCII workarounds for all of them. We
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:35:10PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
: I'm sure ¢ will have its equivalent too.
c| or C| maybe.
Larry
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 08:45:25AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
: More info. ¢T is a scalar variable just like $T, but enforces a
: class view, so you can use it as a class parameter, and pass any
: object to it, but only access the classish aspects of the object.
And a nice side effect of that is
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 11:46:30AM -0400, John Siracusa wrote:
: On 10/20/05 11:37 AM, Larry Wall wrote:
: On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:32:14AM -0500, Steve Peters wrote:
: : The idea of punishing programmers who choose to use certain operating
system
: : or locales just doesn't seem right to
Larry Wall skribis 2005-10-20 8:46 (-0700):
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:35:10PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
: I'm sure ¢ will have its equivalent too.
c| or C| maybe.
But
sub c { ... }
sub d { ... }
if $foo eq c|d { ... }
Juerd
--
http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 07:56:09AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
: I don't know how long this EuroOSCON net is going to stay up, so I'll be
: brief. I think we're having a new class sigil. Where we've been
: writing ::T, that will revert to meaning an existing class T that
: we just might not see the
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:53:00PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
: Larry Wall skribis 2005-10-20 8:46 (-0700):
: On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:35:10PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
: : I'm sure ¢ will have its equivalent too.
: c| or C| maybe.
:
: But
:
: sub c { ... }
: sub d { ... }
:
: if $foo eq
On 10/20/05, Larry Wall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Another thing I didn't mention is that that binds both the variable
and its class. But the $ variable is of course optional after the
type, so you could just write that
sub sametype (¢T, ¢T) {...}
if you don't actually care about $x and
On 20/10/05, Larry Wall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: But
:
: sub c { ... }
: sub d { ... }
:
: if $foo eq c|d { ... }
Other suggestions welcome.
Would c! be an option?
--
schnee
Schneelocke skribis 2005-10-20 18:00 (+0200):
Would c! be an option?
In current Perl 6: Yes, because infix ! does not exist.
But several people want ! to be a chainy none() constructor, and this
would destroy a dream.
Juerd
--
http://convolution.nl/maak_juerd_blij.html
On 10/20/05, Juerd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Schneelocke skribis 2005-10-20 18:00 (+0200):
Would c! be an option?
In current Perl 6: Yes, because infix ! does not exist.
But several people want ! to be a chainy none() constructor, and this
would destroy a dream.
You seem to be forgetting
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 08:55:46AM -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:53:00PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
: Larry Wall skribis 2005-10-20 8:46 (-0700):
: On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:35:10PM +0200, Juerd wrote:
: : I'm sure ¢ will have its equivalent too.
: c| or C| maybe.
:
:
Larry Wall wrote:
I think there can be some kind of community metainformation that sets
defaults appropriately. And if not, the site/project can certainly
establish defaults. On the other hand, a lot of projects do simply
want to specify the version and author explicitly eveyr time,
and they'd
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Juerd wrote:
All non-ASCII operators have ASCII equivalents:
¥ Y
«
»
Speaking of which the advantage of, say, « over is that the former is
_one_ charachter. But Y, compared to ¥, is one charachter only as well,
and is even more visually distinctive
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, Larry Wall wrote:
: c| or C| maybe.
[snip]
: if $foo eq c|d { ... }
Other suggestions welcome.
| maybe? And what will we make | do?
Michele
--
Se non te ne frega nulla e lo consideri un motore usa e getta, vai
pure di avviatore, ma e' un vero delitto. Un po'
What about something like:
c\
Then you get
sub sametype (c\T $x, c\T $y) {...}
Not exactly pretty though. c\T
Actualy i think ^ might be my favorite so far.
sub sametype (^T $x, ^T $y) {...}
--
Eric
On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 10:32 -0500, Steve Peters wrote:
The idea of punishing programmers who choose to use certain operating system
or locales just doesn't seem right to me.
Haven't they already acclimated to the punishment of those operating
systems already?
-- c
On 10/20/05, Nate Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Larry Wall wrote:
I think there can be some kind of community metainformation that sets
defaults appropriately. And if not, the site/project can certainly
establish defaults. On the other hand, a lot of projects do simply
want to specify
On 10/20/05, Nate Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And, it shares alot with other languages people know and use.
That's more because languages are incestuous (like Perl) instead of
languages independently arriving at the same conclusions. Yes, the
while loop is going to look the same everywhere.
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 11:31:03AM -0700, Nate Wiger wrote:
$1 is a prime example. $0 means the program name (all scopes). $1 is the
first match. It's been that way for a very, very, very long time, and
it works just great. There is no *compelling* reason to change this,
other than to
Unfortunately many people WILL have to deal with such changes, and
the question should be: Does a given change offer a clear improvement?
As you said, if we're helping %1 of people %1 of the time, are the
other 99% really going to change all their scripts? No chance.
You again misread what I
Luke Palmer skribis 2005-10-20 10:07 (-0600):
You seem to be forgetting that we do have the longest token rule. So,
the only way this destroys a dream (and likewise, the only way c|
doesn't work), is if you have the poor package or class name c and you
insist on writing c|d or c!d without
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:24:23AM -0700, chromatic wrote:
On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 10:32 -0500, Steve Peters wrote:
The idea of punishing programmers who choose to use certain operating system
or locales just doesn't seem right to me.
Haven't they already acclimated to the punishment of
On 10/20/05, Steve Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have some serious concerns about using Latin-1 sigils within Perl 6 and
the ASCII multi-character aliases. Am I not understanding something that
I should see this as an advantage?
I had the same concern a few months back. I've come to see
Nicholas Clark wrote:
$1 is a prime example. $0 means the program name (all scopes). $1 is the
first match. It's been that way for a very, very, very long time, and
it works just great. There is no *compelling* reason to change this,
other than to satisfy a few people that think it should be
On 10/20/05, Nate Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
$1 is a prime example. $0 means the program name (all scopes). $1 is the
first match. It's been that way for a very, very, very long time, and
it works just great. There is no *compelling* reason to change this,
other than to satisfy a few
On 10/20/05, Steve Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Like the old joke goes Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I try to type a Latin-1
character. So don't try to type Latin-1 characters! Instead, many
programmers will to use the ASCII equivolents that will require additional
keystrokes.
You mean
On Thu, 2005-10-20 at 08:45 -0700, Larry Wall wrote:
More info. ¢T is a scalar variable just like $T, but enforces a
class view, so you can use it as a class parameter, and pass any
object to it, but only access the classish aspects of the object.
The only other big difference is that you can
Speaking briefly, Unicode is the way of the
future, and even many modern systems have strong
support for it. Perl 6 is a language of the
future plus present, not of the past, and
shouldn't be limited by things that are only
issues for older systems while even then being
easy to work-around
On 21/10/05, Darren Duncan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On the other hand, if you want to use the ¢ due
to its being conceptually tied to $, that they
are different units of currency meant to be used
together, then the ¢ is fine.
I think the reason why Larry proposed the ¢ is much simpler - it
On 10/20/05, Nate Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think you missed my point(s), but if you feel compelled to write me
off as a complainer just because I have a counter-opinion that is at
least somewhat built from a good amount of experience, then I do think
you're wearing a set of blinders to
-Original Message-
From: Luke Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Our target audience is only somewhat from a Perl 5 background. People
from Java, from Python, from C, and even just starting to program will
be learning Perl 6, and they would rather have all the language be
zero-based, rather than
Luke Palmer wrote:
Okay, I may still be missing your point, so let me try to summarize
just to be sure we're on the same page: You say that the thing that
is going to hinder migration to Perl 6 is the fact that it's different
from Perl 5.
Intentionally trite oversimplification. My problem is
On 10/20/05, Nate Wiger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Luke Palmer wrote:
Okay, I may still be missing your point, so let me try to summarize
just to be sure we're on the same page: You say that the thing that
is going to hinder migration to Perl 6 is the fact that it's different
from Perl
On 10/20/05, John Adams [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Then the target audience is specifically not people coming from a
shell scripting background, who are quite used to the idea that $0 is
different from $1 in a way in which $1 is not different from $2.
Correct?
But $1 in Perl 5 wasn't the same
From: Luke Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
But $1 in Perl 5 wasn't the same as $1 in a shell script.
Sure--but that's not what I said.
I'm all for breaking things that need breaking, which is why I keep my mouth
shut most of the time--either I see the reason or I suspect (that is, take on
faith,
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:03:27PM -0400, Rob Kinyon wrote:
On 10/20/05, Steve Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I have some serious concerns about using Latin-1 sigils within Perl 6 and
the ASCII multi-character aliases. Am I not understanding something that
I should see this as an
On 10/20/05, Steve Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
As I mentioned earlier, most programmers in a corporate environment have
limited access to system settings.
And in those kinds of corporate environments, you're not going to be
working with any code but code written in-house. Which means that
Schneelocke skribis 2005-10-21 1:07 (+0200):
I think the reason why Larry proposed the ¢ is much simpler - it
looks a bit like a c, which one could associate with class, similar
to how $ looks like S (scalar) and @ looks like a (array). :)
And how % looks like h (hash).
I dislike things like
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 04:23:44PM -0600, Luke Palmer wrote:
On 10/20/05, Steve Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Like the old joke goes Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I try to type a
Latin-1
character. So don't try to type Latin-1 characters! Instead, many
programmers will to use the
Surely you aren't suggesting that these non-English speakers do not have
access to the ASCII (or EBCDIC) character sets for their editors, are you?
Surely you aren't suggesting that your editor doesn't have access to
the Latin-1 charset, are you? Let's take a look at popular editors:
vi - check
Please let that the sigil looks like a certain leter not be a reason.
Juerd
They make for good mnemonics, which isn't necessarily a bad thing for
people coming from languages without them or with fewer
- sebastian
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:12:32PM -0700, Nate Wiger wrote:
Every regex engine in every language uses $1 or \1. This includes Java,
JavaScript, C, PHP, Python, awk, sed, the GNU regex libs, etc. Somehow
other languages seem ok with this, because it's a widely-used convention.
This quibbling
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 10:40:44PM -0400, Rob Kinyon wrote:
Surely you aren't suggesting that these non-English speakers do not have
access to the ASCII (or EBCDIC) character sets for their editors, are you?
Surely you aren't suggesting that your editor doesn't have access to
the Latin-1
Steve Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
~ seems to be available for a sigil, if my reading of S02 is correct, and
the cent sign is replacing :: in all cases. If not (that is $::foo is
still the global variable named foo) then * may also be available.
Sigils can't conflict with unary operators
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