Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Ali e Lahijani]

> Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
> straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
> right to left text?

This reminds me of a problem I encountered then, that is it is sometimes
unclear when to switch between directions. "x - y" is unambiguous, but
what about "(تعداد کل) - (تعداد پرتقال)" ? (also notice
the parentheses.)
Do not we need an RTL minus sign and an LTR one?








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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Max Froumentin]

"Sina Ahmadian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Yes, surprisingly the long division notation in the French is really 
> "bizarre"!

yes :-) But as long as it's used anywhere in the world, then MathML
ought to support it. There are more schoolkids learning mathematics
using a possibly bizzarre notation than there are researchers using
the "standard" one.

> When I was studying at high school here in France, I had never seen
> "tg" in
> the books or on the board. As Roozbeh said, it seems to be the old
> form used
> in the French educational system which is obsolete now.

So I guess I'm giving away my age saying I used tg when I was at
school...  It's true that I don't really know if schoolkids in France
still use the old long division notation (I suspect they do), or if
students still use tg for tangent.  But again, we don't want to
discard it if it's still in use somewhere.  IMO, it should indeed be
made obsolete, but then should we just say MathML is only supporting
the one world-wide mathematical notation? That seems to go against
internationalisation principles.

Max.

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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Behdad Esfahbod]

To answer the parts that other people didn't answer:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Max Froumentin wrote:

> Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:
>
> > It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
> > Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
> > same way as in English.
>
> Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
> straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
> right to left text?

Yes, that's what I remember.

> Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
> ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
>   -
>   2

The last two are used in elementary school, but then in higher
levels they fall back to 1/2 and 1
 -
 2

> I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
> relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
> wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
> and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
> variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')

I've only seen a Persian operator for 'lim', and again, that's
only used in highschool textbooks, not academia.

> So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?

I think a common practice is to use a fixedsize 'lim' which
happens to be wider than the usual way the word is written.  The
word for 'lim' in Persian consists of only two letters, and that
may not be wideenough to make it clear what's going on, so they
typically use a stretched version.

> Max.

--behdad
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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Sina Ahmadian]

Hi,

Just to add some info about the French system :


Among the common differences you see in primary
school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English
it's written as shown in
. In french it's:

   14523 | 34
 92  |--
 243 | 427
   5 |



Yes, surprisingly the long division notation in the French is really 
"bizarre"!



I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')


When I was studying at high school here in France, I had never seen "tg" in 
the books or on the board. As Roozbeh said, it seems to be the old form used 
in the French educational system which is obsolete now.


Sina


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:33 +0330, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> About "tg" vs "tan": for a while, "tg", "cotg", and "cosec" were used.
> Then the academic community switched to "tan", "cot", and "csc" but the
> high school trigonometry textbooks remained with "tg" and family. After
> a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form
> used in all levels of education is "tan" and family.

Ah, something else. When the "tg" and family were the default, all such
trigonometric operators were typeset in italic type, not roman.

roozbeh


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Roozbeh Pournader]

About "tg" vs "tan": for a while, "tg", "cotg", and "cosec" were used.
Then the academic community switched to "tan", "cot", and "csc" but the
high school trigonometry textbooks remained with "tg" and family. After
a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form
used in all levels of education is "tan" and family.

About the stretched limit: High schools used that Persian stretched
limit (Heh, Dal) when I was in high school, but the official textbooks
now use the Latin "lim" (I just confirmed this with a high school
student who checked with his textbook). The academic community have
often used "lim".

Roozbeh


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Elnaz Sarbar]

Hi,

On سه‌شنبه, 2005-10-18 at 11:42 +0100, Max Froumentin wrote:
> Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:
> 
> > It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
> > Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
> > same way as in English.
> 
> Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
> straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
> right to left text? 

That's right. Even in primary school.

> Among the common differences you see in primary
> school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English
> it's written as shown in
> . In french it's:
> 
>14523 | 34
>  92  |--
>  243 | 427
>5 |
> 
We do that this way:

14523 | 34
136   |-
--| 427
  92  |
  68  |
--|
  243 |
  238 |
--|
 5|

> Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
> ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
>   -
>   2
> 

÷ is used as division sign.

> etc. These are differences between different variant of the "Western" 
> notation,
> and they require different rendering rules for MathML. That's what we're 
> trying
> to figure out as much as possible all the variants.
> 
> > I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal
> > form of an equation in Persian
> 
> I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
> relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
> wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
> and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
> variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')
> 
I've seen both tan and tg in mathematic books. But I don't know which
one is official.

> > I think the "stretched" word "limit" is just a stylish way of writing
> > which compensates more space for the "x --> pi/10". However, "pi/10"
> > is a fraction, if I am not wrong, and should be written like the other
> > fraction "1/4".
> 
> So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?
> 
Not always but usually. Not stretched one (حد) isn't usually long enough
to write "x --> pi/10" or other thing under it.

Elnaz
> Max.
> 
> 
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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Max Froumentin]

Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:

> It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
> Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
> same way as in English.

Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
right to left text? Among the common differences you see in primary
school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English
it's written as shown in
. In french it's:

   14523 | 34
 92  |--
 243 | 427
   5 |

Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
  -
  2

etc. These are differences between different variant of the "Western" notation,
and they require different rendering rules for MathML. That's what we're trying
to figure out as much as possible all the variants.

> I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal
> form of an equation in Persian

I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')

> I think the "stretched" word "limit" is just a stylish way of writing
> which compensates more space for the "x --> pi/10". However, "pi/10"
> is a fraction, if I am not wrong, and should be written like the other
> fraction "1/4".

So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?

Max.


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Arash Bijanzadeh wrote:

> I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of
> an equation in Persian

True.  Although the Persian notation for "limit" is not that
common, many simply use the Latin "lim" notation.

As for digits, we use Persian digits (U+06F0..U+06F9) in
mathematics all the time.

behdad


> On 10/17/05, Max Froumentin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > [OK, here we go again. No attachment this time]
> >
> > After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to
> > join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
> > wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide
> > mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in
> > the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our
> > minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
> > to investigate Hebrew and others.
> >
> > We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from
> > Arabic. It's at . I don't know
> > any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs
> > from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is
> > also special in that it appears to be stretchable.
> >
> > The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation
> > have any such particularities that would make its layout different
> > from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would
> > then require special constructs in the MathML language?
> >
> > Thanks for any insight,
> >
> > Max.
> >
> > ___
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> > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
> >
>
>
>
> --
> from debian manifesto:
> Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution.
> Rather than being developed by one isolated individua
> l or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the
> past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU.
>

--behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"
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RE: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Hashemi]

It is a normal form of an
equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a Persian speaking country, mathematical
notations are expressed the same way as in English.

 

-Original Message-
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Arash Bijanzadeh
Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005
2:55 PM
To: Max Froumentin
Cc: Persian Computing List
Subject: Re: Mathematics in
Persian, feedback needed

 

I
don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of an
equation in Persian



On 10/17/05, Max Froumentin < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

[OK, here we go again. No
attachment this time]

After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to 
join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide
mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in
the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our 
minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
to investigate Hebrew and others.

We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from
Arabic. It's at <
http://people.w3.org/maxf/tmp/limf.png>. I don't know
any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs
from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is
also special in that it appears to be stretchable. 

The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation
have any such particularities that would make its layout different
from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would
then require special constructs in the MathML language?

Thanks for any insight,

Max.

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from debian manifesto:
Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution.
Rather than being developed by one isolated individua
l or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the
past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU. 






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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Arash Bijanzadeh]

I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of an equation in PersianOn 10/17/05, Max Froumentin <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:[OK, here we go again. No attachment this time]After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to
join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As Iwrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-widemathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing inthe language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our
minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're goingto investigate Hebrew and others.We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ fromArabic. It's at <
http://people.w3.org/maxf/tmp/limf.png>. I don't knowany of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differsfrom arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator isalso special in that it appears to be stretchable.
The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notationhave any such particularities that would make its layout differentfrom other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would
then require special constructs in the MathML language?Thanks for any insight,Max.___PersianComputing mailing list
PersianComputing@lists.sharif.eduhttp://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing-- 
from debian manifesto:Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution. Rather than being developed by one isolated individual or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU. 
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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Max Froumentin]

[OK, here we go again. No attachment this time]

After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to
join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide
mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in
the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our
minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
to investigate Hebrew and others.

We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from
Arabic. It's at . I don't know
any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs
from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is
also special in that it appears to be stretchable.

The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation
have any such particularities that would make its layout different
from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would
then require special constructs in the MathML language?

Thanks for any insight,

Max.

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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Arash Bijanzadeh]

NO images attached. Could you please provide them for us.On 10/17/05, Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:Hi all,Max Froumentin from the W3 consortium is seeking feedback on
Mathematics in Persian.  His message to the list was bounced forsome reason, so I'm forwarding his message.  Please keep him CCedwhen replying.Thanks,behdad=
From: Max Froumentin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced tojoin the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-widemathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing inthe language.  Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to ourminds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
to investigate Hebrew and others.We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ fromArabic.  See attached image. I don't know any of either Arabic orPersian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the
numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appearsto be stretchable.The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notationhave any such particularities that would make its layout different
from other right-to-left languages, like Arabic, and that would thenrequire special constructs in the MathML language?Thanks for any insight,Max.___
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 past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU. 
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