Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
Tom Lane wrote: Rob Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That makes it sound as if you didn't do the same level of testing on *this* release, like it didn't go through all the tests or something. How about it does not have the extensive testing history that other supported platforms in this release have. Not bad, but it doesn't make the point that there's a lot of new platform-specific code for Windows in there. You want to point out not only that there's no history, but that there's new code to be suspicious of. Agreed, but savepoints probably has more code. Do we warn about that too? I agree there is a disconnect between the initial clause and the testing part, and mentioning the code actually does fix that, so new wording is: Because Win32 is significantly different from the Unix platforms supported in previous releases, there is much new Win32-specific code that has not been tested extensively. Please test it thoroughly before using it in production. Also, we probably have more beta testers on Win32 than on all Unix platforms combined, though they might not be testing as thoroughly as Unix. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
Also, we probably have more beta testers on Win32 than on all Unix platforms combined, though they might not be testing as thoroughly as Unix. Maybe I am just being dense, but isn't this obvious? I mean this is the first release of the Win32 code. Anybody who would be willing to put it in production without extensive testing deserves everything they get. Then again we are talking about people who willinging use Windows as the primary platform. Forget I brought it up. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- Command Prompt, Inc., home of Mammoth PostgreSQL - S/ODBC and S/JDBC Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting. +1-503-667-4564 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.commandprompt.com Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL begin:vcard fn:Joshua D. Drake n:Drake;Joshua D. org:Command Prompt, Inc. adr:;;PO Box 215;Cascade Locks;Oregon;97014;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Consultant tel;work:503-667-4564 tel;fax:503-210-0334 note:Command Prompt, Inc. is the largest and oldest US based commercial PostgreSQL support provider. We provide the only commercially viable integrated PostgreSQL replication solution, but also custom programming, and support. We authored the book Practical PostgreSQL, the procedural language plPHP, and adding trigger capability to plPerl. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://www.commandprompt.com/ version:2.1 end:vcard ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
Joshua D. Drake wrote: Also, we probably have more beta testers on Win32 than on all Unix platforms combined, though they might not be testing as thoroughly as Unix. Maybe I am just being dense, but isn't this obvious? I mean this is the first release of the Win32 code. Anybody who would be willing to put it in production without extensive testing deserves everything they get. Then again we are talking about people who willinging use Windows as the primary platform. Forget I brought it up. I think there is concern that if the Win32 port is buggy that it will give the project a bad reputation. It will probably be distributed to many who have never used PostgreSQL before. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
Altho tested throughout our release cycle, the Windows port does not have the benefit of the years of testing that has gone into the Unix platforms, and, as such, should be treated with the same level of caution as you would a new product Wow, that is good! Current wording is: Because Win32 is significantly different from the Unix platforms supported in previous releases, there is much new Win32-specific code that has not been tested extensively. Please test it thoroughly before using it in production. Should I change it to Marc's version? This is much better. However I would still remove the phrase 'has not been tested extensively'. I've been testing almost continuously since the port became available around March, and so have a lot of others. I quit around July because it seemed to be a waste of time (most everything works fine). Is it really a good idea to imply that any code is released without extensive testing? Either 8.0 is release quality or it isn't. If it isn't, delay the release until it is. If there are (valid) concerns about the win32 specific codebase, let's put together some formal tests and knock those out of the way. Merlin ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: Joshua D. Drake wrote: Also, we probably have more beta testers on Win32 than on all Unix platforms combined, though they might not be testing as thoroughly as Unix. Maybe I am just being dense, but isn't this obvious? I mean this is the first release of the Win32 code. Anybody who would be willing to put it in production without extensive testing deserves everything they get. Then again we are talking about people who willinging use Windows as the primary platform. Forget I brought it up. I think there is concern that if the Win32 port is buggy that it will give the project a bad reputation. It will probably be distributed to many who have never used PostgreSQL before. Since I imagine 99.9% of Windows users are going to use pginstaller to install it ... has anyone looked into putting a WARNING pop up window as part of the install itself? Or does such already exist? Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: Joshua D. Drake wrote: Also, we probably have more beta testers on Win32 than on all Unix platforms combined, though they might not be testing as thoroughly as Unix. Maybe I am just being dense, but isn't this obvious? I mean this is the first release of the Win32 code. Anybody who would be willing to put it in production without extensive testing deserves everything they get. Then again we are talking about people who willinging use Windows as the primary platform. Forget I brought it up. I think there is concern that if the Win32 port is buggy that it will give the project a bad reputation. It will probably be distributed to many who have never used PostgreSQL before. Since I imagine 99.9% of Windows users are going to use pginstaller to install it ... has anyone looked into putting a WARNING pop up window as part of the install itself? Or does such already exist? There is already one for the beta. I don't see a need to add one for final release. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: There is already one for the beta. I don't see a need to add one for final release. Might be an idea ... if nothing else, something that at least reminds them about reporting bugs and where to do so? I'd hate to see 1000 ppl install, 90% see bugs adn never have them reported :( Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
If you are afraid of the quality of the windows port, then label it as a BETA. When everyone is fully satisfied that the kinks have been worked out, call it a RELEASE. It is a bad practice to use the world as a BETA test without their knowledge. Even as a BETA, it will be plenty popular. In 6 months, after all the little idiosyncrasies have perked up to the surface and been fixed, then release it as a formal RELEASE with a big fanfare. IMO-YMMV. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marc G. Fournier Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 11:32 AM To: Bruce Momjian Cc: Joshua D. Drake; Tom Lane; Rob Butler; Dennis Bjorklund; Richard Huxton; Andrew Dunstan; Neil Conway; PostgreSQL Win32 port list; PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: Joshua D. Drake wrote: Also, we probably have more beta testers on Win32 than on all Unix platforms combined, though they might not be testing as thoroughly as Unix. Maybe I am just being dense, but isn't this obvious? I mean this is the first release of the Win32 code. Anybody who would be willing to put it in production without extensive testing deserves everything they get. Then again we are talking about people who willinging use Windows as the primary platform. Forget I brought it up. I think there is concern that if the Win32 port is buggy that it will give the project a bad reputation. It will probably be distributed to many who have never used PostgreSQL before. Since I imagine 99.9% of Windows users are going to use pginstaller to install it ... has anyone looked into putting a WARNING pop up window as part of the install itself? Or does such already exist? Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: There is already one for the beta. I don't see a need to add one for final release. Might be an idea ... if nothing else, something that at least reminds them about reporting bugs and where to do so? I'd hate to see 1000 ppl install, 90% see bugs adn never have them reported :( Yes, I was thinking of that, and of telling them they may need to upgrade more frequently than normal 8.0.0 users to fix win32 bugs as we find them. In fact, the idea I was thinking of is to have pginstaller update from current cvs more frequently than we make minor releases as we have done during beta. That way, people can get win32 fixes faster. Also, maybe we should encourage them to subscribe to announce so we can announce any Win32 fix releases we might need. They probably aren't used to that procedure. -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Bruce Momjian wrote: There is already one for the beta. I don't see a need to add one for final release. Might be an idea ... if nothing else, something that at least reminds them about reporting bugs and where to do so? I'd hate to see 1000 ppl install, 90% see bugs adn never have them reported :( Yes, I was thinking of that, and of telling them they may need to upgrade more frequently than normal 8.0.0 users to fix win32 bugs as we find them. In fact, the idea I was thinking of is to have pginstaller update from current cvs more frequently than we make minor releases as we have done during beta. That way, people can get win32 fixes faster. Also, maybe we should encourage them to subscribe to announce so we can announce any Win32 fix releases we might need. They probably aren't used to that procedure. Having installed enough Windows software over the years (unfortunately), how about adding a 'register for annoucements' with a textbox to auto-subscribe to the list if they so choose? Instead of making them go through opening their mail reader and having to send off the message ... my experience with most Windows users is that 'the least amount of work required' means the most likely they will do it :( Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
There is already one for the beta. I don't see a need to add one for final release. Might be an idea ... if nothing else, something that at least reminds them about reporting bugs and where to do so? I'd hate to see 1000 ppl install, 90% see bugs adn never have them reported :( Yes, I was thinking of that, and of telling them they may need to upgrade more frequently than normal 8.0.0 users to fix win32 bugs as we find them. In fact, the idea I was thinking of is to have pginstaller update from current cvs more frequently than we make minor releases as we have done during beta. That way, people can get win32 fixes faster. Also, maybe we should encourage them to subscribe to announce so we can announce any Win32 fix releases we might need. They probably aren't used to that procedure. Having installed enough Windows software over the years (unfortunately), how about adding a 'register for annoucements' with a textbox to auto-subscribe to the list if they so choose? Instead of making them go through opening their mail reader and having to send off the message ... my experience with most Windows users is that 'the least amount of work required' means the most likely they will do it :( Right. So how would you get the email address, without starting the mail reader? We could add a checkbox that takes them to a webpage that permits subscription. But they are certainly going to need to put their email address in there in some way... //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Magnus Hagander wrote: Right. So how would you get the email address, without starting the mail reader? have them enter one in a text box? We could add a checkbox that takes them to a webpage that permits subscription. But they are certainly going to need to put their email address in there in some way... Sorry, I didn't mean no email address ... I meant having a text box on in pginstaller itself that would auto-mail that out ... a link to the subscribe option(s) at the web site would be perfect too ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
Right. So how would you get the email address, without starting the mail reader? have them enter one in a text box? We could add a checkbox that takes them to a webpage that permits subscription. But they are certainly going to need to put their email address in there in some way... Sorry, I didn't mean no email address ... I meant having a text box on in pginstaller itself that would auto-mail that out ... Don't think that's going to work. You need th emailserver. In most cases, you need the login for the mailserver. Most companies and nowadays a lot of home ISPs block outbound SMTP unless you go through their authenticated servers. a link to the subscribe option(s) at the web site would be perfect too ... That one can work, assuming we have a web form somewhere people can subscribe from. //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On August 26, 2004 01:06 pm, Magnus Hagander wrote: pginstaller itself that would auto-mail that out ... Don't think that's going to work. You need th emailserver. In most cases, you need the login for the mailserver. Most companies and nowadays a lot of home ISPs block outbound SMTP unless you go through their authenticated servers. a link to the subscribe option(s) at the web site would be perfect too ... That one can work, assuming we have a web form somewhere people can subscribe from. //Magnus Have the installer automagiclay http-post the required info (that they filled in) ? -- Darcy Buskermolen Wavefire Technologies Corp. ph: 250.717.0200 fx: 250.763.1759 http://www.wavefire.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 15:52, Magnus Hagander wrote:
Also, maybe we should encourage them to subscribe to
announce so we can
announce any Win32 fix releases we might need. They probably aren't
used to that procedure.
Having installed enough Windows software over the years
(unfortunately),
how about adding a 'register for annoucements' with a textbox to
auto-subscribe to the list if they so choose? Instead of
making them go
through opening their mail reader and having to send off the
message ...
my experience with most Windows users is that 'the least
amount of work
required' means the most likely they will do it :(
Right. So how would you get the email address, without starting the mail
reader?
We could add a checkbox that takes them to a webpage that permits
subscription. But they are certainly going to need to put their email
address in there in some way...
All we need to do is and in some of the klez/sobig tech and not only can
we subscribe them, but we should be able to read through their address
book and subscribe 50 of their closest friends without any prompting at
all :-)
Robert Treat
--
Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL
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Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Magnus Hagander wrote: Right. So how would you get the email address, without starting the mail reader? have them enter one in a text box? We could add a checkbox that takes them to a webpage that permits subscription. But they are certainly going to need to put their email address in there in some way... Sorry, I didn't mean no email address ... I meant having a text box on in pginstaller itself that would auto-mail that out ... Don't think that's going to work. You need th emailserver. In most cases, you need the login for the mailserver. Most companies and nowadays a lot of home ISPs block outbound SMTP unless you go through their authenticated servers. a link to the subscribe option(s) at the web site would be perfect too ... That one can work, assuming we have a web form somewhere people can subscribe from. Yup, that is easy to do ... you just go to the mj_wwwuser form with the right args to tellit what mailing list ... you can easy tell i twhat userid if you can get that somehow from the OS ... Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Robert Treat wrote: All we need to do is and in some of the klez/sobig tech and not only can we subscribe them, but we should be able to read through their address book and subscribe 50 of their closest friends without any prompting at all :-) We could, but make sure its in the License Agreement so that its legal :) And, in case you didn't know, this has happened ... there was a company that distributed software that in there termsconditions (that you had to agree to), there was a clause that said you agreed to them mailing out to those ppl it finds in your addressbook :) Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org) Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [pgsql-hackers-win32] [HACKERS] Win32 release warning
OK, release notes updated. --- Bruce Momjian wrote: OK, current text suggestion is: Although tested throughout our release cycle, the Windows port does not have the benefit of years of use in production environments that PostgreSQL has on Unix platforms and therefore should be treated with the same level of caution as you would a new product. --- Andrew Dunstan wrote: Marc G. Fournier wrote: On Thu, 26 Aug 2004, Tom Lane wrote: Rob Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That makes it sound as if you didn't do the same level of testing on *this* release, like it didn't go through all the tests or something. How about it does not have the extensive testing history that other supported platforms in this release have. Not bad, but it doesn't make the point that there's a lot of new platform-specific code for Windows in there. You want to point out not only that there's no history, but that there's new code to be suspicious of. Altho tested throughout our release cycle, the Windows port does not have the benefit of the years of testing that has gone into the Unix platforms, and, as such, should be treated with the same level of caution as you would a new product Not bad. I think I'd say ... does not have the benefit of years of use in production environments that PostgreSQL has on Unix platforms ... - I agree with Merlin that we shouldn't imply it hasn't been extensively tested. cheers andrew -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings -- Bruce Momjian| http://candle.pha.pa.us [EMAIL PROTECTED] | (610) 359-1001 + If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road + Christ can be your backup.| Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073 ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
