Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
You are entirely correct. However, I (personally) feel that by pricing it so high you're targeting a very small niche market at a higher rate. Pricing it in the "$300.00" range would not cost you that niche - but it would gain you the "x-million" users/freelance developers. Sure, $6,000 is 20x $300, but it's ONLY x20. When you're talking about a userbase on the 'net, x20 is NOTHING. "Go big and expensive" seems the "old way" and "go small and dominate the market" seems the new...um, paradigm. (Yes, I just wanted to say that word. For all it's overuse, I think it just looks neat.) Unfortunately, it's not that simple. You haven't factored in Support costs nor administrative overhead nor... Well, I don't know what else the Marketing folks do when they figure these things out, but that's why I'm not in Marketing, eh? -- Visit the Zend Store at http://www.zend.com/store/ Wanna help me out? Like Music? Buy a CD: http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm Volunteer a little time: http://chatmusic.com/volunteer.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. You haven't factored in Support costs nor administrative overhead nor... Well, I don't know what else the Marketing folks do when they figure these things out, but that's why I'm not in Marketing, eh? Right it's not my game either (marketing), but perhaps Zend would be willing to supply why the price is at $6,000. As you said above , it doesn't just stop when I buy the encoder. Whose going to do the encoding and continue doing the encoding with continued releases etc? A graphic designer? A consultant? I have listened to the arguments, 6000 is steep when you compare it with a download from freshmeat. Writing a c-module is not *that* far away from writing some of the more complicated php/perl/python scripts. Indeed this is what furthers php. I would rather see Zend charging for support contracts, rather than the actual product -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
Unfortunately, it's not that simple. You haven't factored in Support costs nor administrative overhead nor... Well, I don't know what else the Marketing folks do when they figure these things out, but that's why I'm not in Marketing, eh? Right it's not my game either (marketing), but perhaps Zend would be willing to supply why the price is at $6,000. As you said above , it doesn't just stop when I buy the encoder. Whose going to do the encoding and continue doing the encoding with continued releases etc? A graphic designer? A consultant? I have listened to the arguments, 6000 is steep when you compare it with a download from freshmeat. Writing a c-module is not *that* far away from writing some of the more complicated php/perl/python scripts. Indeed this is what furthers php. I would rather see Zend charging for support contracts, rather than the actual product The Unlimited Encoder comes with "First-year software maintenance and support services free" as stated on http://www.zend.com/store/products/zend-encoder.php not 60 days, as mistakenly reported in various threads. The 60 days Support is for other Zend Products Now, we're not going to come over to your house and encode your files for you, not even for $6000 :-) So, if you like, you can think of a big chunk of that $6000 being for the year of Support, and then it may seem more reasonable. Also, I wouldn't expect a new version of PHP nor any Zend products to require you to re-encode all your files. There might be some exceptions, say if function parameters are altered or functions are deprecated, but not on a wholesale basis. Still, if the Freshmeat projects are more suitable for your needs and budget, by all means use them. I've heard no reviews of any encoder-like projects, though, so can't help you with the performance/reliability etc for those. Sorry. I'd be interested in any references to objective comparisons or reviews, however. -- Visit the Zend Store at http://www.zend.com/store/ Wanna help me out? Like Music? Buy a CD: http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm Volunteer a little time: http://chatmusic.com/volunteer.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
Hello, What do you think about Zend position? http://php.weblogs.com/ http://zend.com/phorum/read.php?num=3id=6277loc=0thread=6277 I think that if Zend wants to sell it for $6000, then they have all right to. These guys have worked hard, and they deserve some cash for it. If people can't afford it at $6000, then that's their problem. Software is intellectual property, it shouldn't be free, and authors should be able to charge any price for it they want to charge for it. But, I don't think it's a wise decision to sell it at $6000, personally I think I would sell it between $1000 and $4000, but that's just me. ($6000 is a bit on the high side, considering what alternatives one haves for that price, and considering that anyone who paid $1000 a year back (I recall something about 'sponsoring') gets it all.) -S -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
Sander Pilon wrote: Hello, What do you think about Zend position? http://php.weblogs.com/ http://zend.com/phorum/read.php?num=3id=6277loc=0thread=6277 I think that if Zend wants to sell it for $6000, then they have all right to. These guys have worked hard, and they deserve some cash for it. If people can't afford it at $6000, then that's their problem. Software is intellectual property, it shouldn't be free, and authors should be able to charge any price for it they want to charge for it. There is, of course, the Encoder SE available via the commercial subscription plan... The Encoder is designed for (mostly) companies who design, develop and sell PHP applications. Up to now, PHP has not been a viable solution for distributed web apps, instead relying on companies having to either become mini-ASPs, or taking the risk and distributing the actual PHP scripts. And the sad fact is that for many companies, they will disregard Licenses or NDAs or agreements at the drop of a hat. So there has been resistance to using PHP for apps designed for distro. The Enocoder solves that. If the solution that the Encoder provides isn't something you need, they you don't need to pay :) If you want to distribute your code for free, then most likely you'll be also sending the text script, so you don't need the Encoder. If you are a small shop, and want to dip your toes, the Commercial Subscription allows you to distributed and sell your encoded apps at a very reasonable price point... By the by, my other hat is [EMAIL PROTECTED], in the interests of full disclosure. But feedback is always welcome! -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "Casanova will have many weapons; To beat him you will have to have more than forks and flatulence." -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
IMHO, if you want to sell it then it's your right. You coded it, you own it, you get to sell it. But I do know that for $6,000 I sure as hell am not buying it. Maybe for a couple hundred...but $6,000? No way. I'd have to have some seriously proprietary kickass scripts that cost me a huge investment in time/money to develop to blow $6,000 just on keeping people from copying/tweaking them. Even then, they're just scripts. It'd be nice for some encapsulated functionality, say, for database access, but still, for $6,000 + runtime client? Nah, PHP code's just not that complex and for $6,000 I can set up a number of unique users in the database. -Szii At 08:56 AM 1/25/2001 -0500, Jim Jagielski wrote: Sander Pilon wrote: Hello, What do you think about Zend position? http://php.weblogs.com/ http://zend.com/phorum/read.php?num=3id=6277loc=0thread=6277 I think that if Zend wants to sell it for $6000, then they have all right to. These guys have worked hard, and they deserve some cash for it. If people can't afford it at $6000, then that's their problem. Software is intellectual property, it shouldn't be free, and authors should be able to charge any price for it they want to charge for it. There is, of course, the Encoder SE available via the commercial subscription plan... The Encoder is designed for (mostly) companies who design, develop and sell PHP applications. Up to now, PHP has not been a viable solution for distributed web apps, instead relying on companies having to either become mini-ASPs, or taking the risk and distributing the actual PHP scripts. And the sad fact is that for many companies, they will disregard Licenses or NDAs or agreements at the drop of a hat. So there has been resistance to using PHP for apps designed for distro. The Enocoder solves that. If the solution that the Encoder provides isn't something you need, they you don't need to pay :) If you want to distribute your code for free, then most likely you'll be also sending the text script, so you don't need the Encoder. If you are a small shop, and want to dip your toes, the Commercial Subscription allows you to distributed and sell your encoded apps at a very reasonable price point... By the by, my other hat is [EMAIL PROTECTED], in the interests of full disclosure. But feedback is always welcome! -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "Casanova will have many weapons; To beat him you will have to have more than forks and flatulence." -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I do know that for $6,000 I sure as hell am not buying it. Maybe for a couple hundred...but $6,000? No way. I'd have to have some seriously proprietary kickass scripts that cost me a huge investment in time/money to develop to blow $6,000 just on keeping people from copying/tweaking them. Even then, they're just scripts. It'd be nice for some encapsulated functionality, say, for database access, but still, for $6,000 + runtime client? Nah, PHP code's just not that complex and for $6,000 I can set up a number of unique users in the database. -Szii Well, without the Encoder the entire *possibility* of "seriously proprietary kickass scripts" that people distribute and sell is out of the question. Who said it was for the small developer? For them, there's the Commercial Subscription plan. The Encoder is for companies whose business is selling such PHP apps (among other good solutions as well). And the Encoder allows for better separation of business and presentation logic... hell, you could even implement a sort of business logic PHP "servlet". -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "Casanova will have many weapons; To beat him you will have to have more than forks and flatulence." -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
My question is- Does the encoder license permit a company to purchase the license, and then optionally encode php for third parties? Can I, for example, encode purchase the encoder, and then make a deal with John who can't afford the encoder to encode John's web application for $150 and give John the encoded version? The answer, unfortunately, is no, at least as I read the commercial license. This is really too bad, if you ask me- as there are a lot of really bright kids out there who have seen that the Open Source model, while very noble and absolutely loved, doesn't always pay. Why then, should they develop using php if they are not capable of protecting their code if that's their choice? They'll be using Java or C/C++ or perl (which can be encoded for a lot less). There needs to be a solution where those who do not yet have big bucks can take advantage of the encoder to protect what their mind has conceived. Otherwise, they won't use php (or their code will be ripped off if its really really good) and zend will lose future market as these brilliant minds move towards affordable technology to protect what their intellectual work. Charge $6000 to the big companies, I have no problem with that. I personally would be willing to pay that if web applications was my business. But at the same time, allow those who don't necessarily need to have the encoder but just want some code encoded to have an affordable solution. On Thursday, January 25, 2001, at 05:26 AM, Sander Pilon wrote: Hello, What do you think about Zend position? http://php.weblogs.com/ http://zend.com/phorum/read.php?num=3id=6277loc=0thread=6277 I think that if Zend wants to sell it for $6000, then they have all right to. These guys have worked hard, and they deserve some cash for it. If people can't afford it at $6000, then that's their problem. Software is intellectual property, it shouldn't be free, and authors should be able to charge any price for it they want to charge for it. But, I don't think it's a wise decision to sell it at $6000, personally I think I would sell it between $1000 and $4000, but that's just me. ($6000 is a bit on the high side, considering what alternatives one haves for that price, and considering that anyone who paid $1000 a year back (I recall something about 'sponsoring') gets it all.) -S -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Michael A. Peters Abriasoft Senior Developer (510) 623-9726x357 Fax: (510) 249-9125 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
please, please take this discussion elsewhere. if you have questions for the zend guys about their pricing and want to lecture them on what you think the right pricing is, there are a number of message boards on their site that are more suitable. if you want to explore alternatives to the zend cache and encoder products, take a look at the bware 'afterburner' cache and apc (whose next release will have encoder-like functionality). search freshmeat for more information on those projects. there is a mailing list set up for the discussion of apc, at least. jim -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
Rasmus Lerdorf wrote: Well, without the Encoder the entire *possibility* of "seriously proprietary kickass scripts" that people distribute and sell is out of the question. Let's not go overboard here. You can build and sell serious stuff without an encoder. Obfuscating the code is not a requirement for all people. A usage license attached to the code that specifies what the client can do with it is often all it should take. If you really are building serious stuff that you sell to serious customers, then they are not likely to violate a license to save a few hundred dollars. If it requires too many hoops to jump through for people to program in PHP with the intention to distribute, then no matter how much better PHP is than other solutions, the decision will be: bag it, it's too much trouble, find something else. I never said that obfuscating the code is a requirement for all people. I'd like to know where I said that. It's easy to make me sound like an idiot or worse when you put words in my mouth. I said that for some people it is. BIG difference. To dismiss those people is kind of foolish. Doesn't the existance of such a product help *promote* the use of PHP? isn't that what we all want? If there are barriers that prevent people from using PHP, then doesn't it make sense to address those? If *they* want it (a obfuscation method) or need it, then they do. It's not your right to tell people how to distribute their code, or in what method to do it. And I could tell you stories about how much licenses and NDAs and such other legal agreements mean to some... :) -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "Casanova will have many weapons; To beat him you will have to have more than forks and flatulence." -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
I never said that obfuscating the code is a requirement for all people. I'd like to know where I said that. It's easy to make me sound like an idiot or worse when you put words in my mouth. I said that for some people it is. BIG difference. That was not how I understood what you wrote. You wrote: without the Encoder the entire *possibility* of "seriously proprietary kickass scripts" that people distribute and sell is out of the question. "out of the question" does not imply this "some people" idea. The above says that if you wish to seriously write proprietary php, you must buy the Encoder. My simple point is that there are other ways to approach the problem. -Rasmus -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price)
I haven't read all the posts, but as you stated Charge $6000 to the big companies, I have no problem with that. I personally would be willing to pay that if web applications was my business. But at the same time, allow those who don't necessarily need to have the encoder but just want some code encoded to have an affordable solution. there is an alternative, Zend sells packages of 5 -20- and 100 uses of the encoder, in license packs for allot less granted the largest is still 1000 USD, but its less I'm sure that there are other alternatives to using the Zend encoder, (Obstruficating SP? is Rasmus's argument) but even using his method, there is a BIG possibility that anyone who wants to will find that hidden security measure, or your DB code, and rip it, hack it, slash it, and package it to profit from your work. We are in the process of creating a large project for distribution, and the encoder is paramount to the system we are designing without it, we don't have a chance in hell of keeping our security keys secure from prying eyes of course, we are one of those companies which can afford to drop 6G's at this program, but we weren't expecting it to run that high. I must say that Zend did a lousy PR job at promoting the system, but we need to use it. Dallas K. -Original Message- From: Michael A. Peters [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2001 11:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [PHP] Zend hit (Encoder price) My question is- Does the encoder license permit a company to purchase the license, and then optionally encode php for third parties? Can I, for example, encode purchase the encoder, and then make a deal with John who can't afford the encoder to encode John's web application for $150 and give John the encoded version? The answer, unfortunately, is no, at least as I read the commercial license. This is really too bad, if you ask me- as there are a lot of really bright kids out there who have seen that the Open Source model, while very noble and absolutely loved, doesn't always pay. Why then, should they develop using php if they are not capable of protecting their code if that's their choice? They'll be using Java or C/C++ or perl (which can be encoded for a lot less). There needs to be a solution where those who do not yet have big bucks can take advantage of the encoder to protect what their mind has conceived. Otherwise, they won't use php (or their code will be ripped off if its really really good) and zend will lose future market as these brilliant minds move towards affordable technology to protect what their intellectual work. Charge $6000 to the big companies, I have no problem with that. I personally would be willing to pay that if web applications was my business. But at the same time, allow those who don't necessarily need to have the encoder but just want some code encoded to have an affordable solution. On Thursday, January 25, 2001, at 05:26 AM, Sander Pilon wrote: Hello, What do you think about Zend position? http://php.weblogs.com/ http://zend.com/phorum/read.php?num=3id=6277loc=0thread=6277 I think that if Zend wants to sell it for $6000, then they have all right to. These guys have worked hard, and they deserve some cash for it. If people can't afford it at $6000, then that's their problem. Software is intellectual property, it shouldn't be free, and authors should be able to charge any price for it they want to charge for it. But, I don't think it's a wise decision to sell it at $6000, personally I think I would sell it between $1000 and $4000, but that's just me. ($6000 is a bit on the high side, considering what alternatives one haves for that price, and considering that anyone who paid $1000 a year back (I recall something about 'sponsoring') gets it all.) -S -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Michael A. Peters Abriasoft Senior Developer (510) 623-9726x357 Fax: (510) 249-9125 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
