Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 19, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2007-12-18 at 16:26 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 18, 2007 4:24 PM, Travis L. Font [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's random! I'm going to close my eyes think of some drinking water and running AT the same time and just start pushing numbers on the pad however way my fingers desire while not thinking about it! Here: 7914718845748671454531587148354531452141857 Good enough? No. * Must resist the being sucked back into this thread * Now can we finally get back in order? Or at least my version of order, which has been influenced by many factors including a huge Machine in the sky that is actually running the world with 1's and 0's :) Ohh... And Pudge the fish... He controls the weather... -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
2007. 12. 19, szerda keltezéssel 08.50-kor Jason Pruim ezt írta: On Dec 19, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2007-12-18 at 16:26 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 18, 2007 4:24 PM, Travis L. Font [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's random! I'm going to close my eyes think of some drinking water and running AT the same time and just start pushing numbers on the pad however way my fingers desire while not thinking about it! Here: 7914718845748671454531587148354531452141857 Good enough? No. * Must resist the being sucked back into this thread * Now can we finally get back in order? Or at least my version of order, why do you want everyone else to get into your version of order? are you Microsoft or what? ;) :P greets Zoltán Németh which has been influenced by many factors including a huge Machine in the sky that is actually running the world with 1's and 0's :) Ohh... And Pudge the fish... He controls the weather... -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
2007. 12. 19, szerda keltezéssel 09.24-kor Jason Pruim ezt írta: On Dec 19, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Zoltán Németh wrote: 2007. 12. 19, szerda keltezéssel 08.50-kor Jason Pruim ezt írta: On Dec 19, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2007-12-18 at 16:26 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 18, 2007 4:24 PM, Travis L. Font [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's random! I'm going to close my eyes think of some drinking water and running AT the same time and just start pushing numbers on the pad however way my fingers desire while not thinking about it! Here: 7914718845748671454531587148354531452141857 Good enough? No. * Must resist the being sucked back into this thread * Now can we finally get back in order? Or at least my version of order, why do you want everyone else to get into your version of order? are you Microsoft or what? ;) :P Why would I want to be a gigantic monopoly that uses is predatory business practices to squash any independent thinking individuals? :) Nahhh... I prefer to Think Different :) okay then :) so, in your original sentence you wanted to say 'Now can we finally get back in order? Or at least everyone in his/her version of order,' :D greets Zoltán Németh -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 19, 2007, at 9:19 AM, Zoltán Németh wrote: 2007. 12. 19, szerda keltezéssel 08.50-kor Jason Pruim ezt írta: On Dec 19, 2007, at 1:51 AM, Robert Cummings wrote: On Tue, 2007-12-18 at 16:26 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 18, 2007 4:24 PM, Travis L. Font [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's random! I'm going to close my eyes think of some drinking water and running AT the same time and just start pushing numbers on the pad however way my fingers desire while not thinking about it! Here: 7914718845748671454531587148354531452141857 Good enough? No. * Must resist the being sucked back into this thread * Now can we finally get back in order? Or at least my version of order, why do you want everyone else to get into your version of order? are you Microsoft or what? ;) :P Why would I want to be a gigantic monopoly that uses is predatory business practices to squash any independent thinking individuals? :) Nahhh... I prefer to Think Different :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 18, 2007 1:50 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 5:10 PM -0600 12/15/07, Richard Lynch wrote: On Wed, December 12, 2007 11:07 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: Once again, we're not trying to prove order. Order obviously exists. I'm not sure I'd agree that order exists in the first place, much less randomness or disorder. They could all be solely our human incorrect interpretation. Well, that's close to my point -- order and disorder, random and predictable are concepts in our minds that do not exist in nature. Once a series of events, or an arrangement of objects satisfies our mind's definition of order or random, then we define it that way. This is the thread that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on, my friend. Some people started typing here, not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep replying-all forever just because this is the thread that doesn't end -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
[snip] This is the thread that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on, my friend. Some people started typing here, not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep replying-all forever just because this is the thread that doesn't end [/snip] This thread lacks order. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
2007. 12. 18, kedd keltezéssel 10.09-kor Daniel Brown ezt írta: On Dec 18, 2007 1:50 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 5:10 PM -0600 12/15/07, Richard Lynch wrote: On Wed, December 12, 2007 11:07 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: Once again, we're not trying to prove order. Order obviously exists. I'm not sure I'd agree that order exists in the first place, much less randomness or disorder. They could all be solely our human incorrect interpretation. Well, that's close to my point -- order and disorder, random and predictable are concepts in our minds that do not exist in nature. Once a series of events, or an arrangement of objects satisfies our mind's definition of order or random, then we define it that way. This is the thread that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on, my friend. Some people started typing here, not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep replying-all forever just because this is the thread that doesn't end that's because the thread could end only if we all knew the exact nature of random and order ;) greets Zoltán Németh -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 18, 2007 10:39 AM, Zoltán Németh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip!] that's because the thread could end only if we all knew the exact nature of random and order ;) I'm Nostradamus-ly predicting that will happen around post 101. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
Ha ha, it does! Admittedly, I haven't read every line of every post in this thread, but so far I haven't seen any mention of Nazis (until now). Godwin's Law breaking down Regards, Bruce Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] 19/12/2007 4:39:15 a.m. [snip] This is the thread that doesn't end. Yes, it goes on and on, my friend. Some people started typing here, not knowing what it was, and they'll just keep replying-all forever just because this is the thread that doesn't end [/snip] This thread lacks order. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
Here's random! I'm going to close my eyes think of some drinking water and running AT the same time and just start pushing numbers on the pad however way my fingers desire while not thinking about it! Here: 7914718845748671454531587148354531452141857 Good enough? -Travis
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 18, 2007 4:24 PM, Travis L. Font [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's random! I'm going to close my eyes think of some drinking water and running AT the same time and just start pushing numbers on the pad however way my fingers desire while not thinking about it! Here: 7914718845748671454531587148354531452141857 Good enough? No. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Tue, 2007-12-18 at 16:26 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 18, 2007 4:24 PM, Travis L. Font [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's random! I'm going to close my eyes think of some drinking water and running AT the same time and just start pushing numbers on the pad however way my fingers desire while not thinking about it! Here: 7914718845748671454531587148354531452141857 Good enough? No. * Must resist the being sucked back into this thread * ... Yes, I realize the obvious contradiction :) Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 5:10 PM -0600 12/15/07, Richard Lynch wrote: On Wed, December 12, 2007 11:07 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: Once again, we're not trying to prove order. Order obviously exists. I'm not sure I'd agree that order exists in the first place, much less randomness or disorder. They could all be solely our human incorrect interpretation. Well, that's close to my point -- order and disorder, random and predictable are concepts in our minds that do not exist in nature. Once a series of events, or an arrangement of objects satisfies our mind's definition of order or random, then we define it that way. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, December 12, 2007 11:07 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: Once again, we're not trying to prove order. Order obviously exists. I'm not sure I'd agree that order exists in the first place, much less randomness or disorder. They could all be solely our human incorrect interpretation. And I've also never claimed to be sane either. So there. -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 15, 2007 6:10 PM, Richard Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, December 12, 2007 11:07 pm, Robert Cummings wrote: Once again, we're not trying to prove order. Order obviously exists. I'm not sure I'd agree that order exists in the first place, much less randomness or disorder. They could all be solely our human incorrect interpretation. And I've also never claimed to be sane either. So there. That's good, because no one here would believe you if you did. Order, disorder, chaos, stability, randomness, et cetera, are all just relative definitions so that we can wrap the bone in our heads around concepts and theories under the weight of which we'd otherwise collapse. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 11:59 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:21 -0500, tedd wrote: Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Order exists all around us. Maybe around you, but I have a wife, two daughters, and four female grandchildren. I only need to look around me to see the order that exists. A desk Not my desk. I've heard that order exist, and when I close my eyes, I can imagine it. Ah there, that's where I find it -- in my head and that's my point*. :-) . Happy Holidays, tedd * You know, the point -- what we were talking about, not a point on the top of my head. :-) -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
tedd wrote: At 11:59 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:21 -0500, tedd wrote: Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Order exists all around us. Maybe around you, but I have a wife, two daughters, and four female grandchildren. that would suggest you live in a world devoid of reason ... which is not the same as order :-P but it's reasonable to assume that it's a fairly chaotic place :-) while we're on the subject of order, I'll have a no. 12, a no. 45 and 2 no.97's please omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. I only need to look around me to see the order that exists. A desk Not my desk. I've heard that order exist, and when I close my eyes, I can imagine it. Ah there, that's where I find it -- in my head and that's my point*. :-) . Happy Holidays, Merry Xmas (just to be polically incorrect about it ;-) tedd * You know, the point -- what we were talking about, not a point on the top of my head. :-) we've seen you photo - no pointy hair in sight iirc ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 14, 2007 9:35 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * You know, the point -- what we were talking about, not a point on the top of my head. :-) Beldar, when the High Master hears what you have said, he will surely cut off your phlarg and hand it to you. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 14, 2007 10:36 AM, Jochem Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. God used to post to the list, but He asked a question and Crayon and Tijnema flamed Him right off the bat, so He's never returned. would there be any correlation between that and the fact that neither did either of those 2. :-P -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 14, 2007 11:01 AM, Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip!] I don't know much about women... Only married to one, but My Son certainly throws me into chaos at times (Daddy, what does this button do? *Computer shuts off because he found the power strip...) [snip!] *Puts on his tinfoil hat and sits in the corner with his light saber (8 foot fluorescent light bulb filled with gasoline and lit on fire to get the cool effects) and waits for the aliens return... This is probably one of those emails that the Department of Youth Family Services feeds on. ;-P -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 14, 2007 11:10 AM, Jochem Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 14, 2007 10:36 AM, Jochem Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. God used to post to the list, but He asked a question and Crayon and Tijnema flamed Him right off the bat, so He's never returned. would there be any correlation between that and the fact that neither did either of those 2. :-P Thou shalt not ask. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 14, 2007 10:36 AM, Jochem Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. God used to post to the list, but He asked a question and Crayon and Tijnema flamed Him right off the bat, so He's never returned. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 11:01 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 14, 2007 10:36 AM, Jochem Maas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. God used to post to the list, but He asked a question and Crayon and Tijnema flamed Him right off the bat, so He's never returned. Aren't flames the tool of the devil? Fire and brimstone and all!? Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 14, 2007, at 10:36 AM, Jochem Maas wrote: tedd wrote: At 11:59 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:21 -0500, tedd wrote: Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Order exists all around us. Maybe around you, but I have a wife, two daughters, and four female grandchildren. that would suggest you live in a world devoid of reason ... which is not the same as order :-P but it's reasonable to assume that it's a fairly chaotic place :-) I don't know much about women... Only married to one, but My Son certainly throws me into chaos at times (Daddy, what does this button do? *Computer shuts off because he found the power strip...) while we're on the subject of order, I'll have a no. 12, a no. 45 and 2 no.97's please omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. Everything is in place because the Master Machine put it there in what seems a random order but when we die and the aliens take us back to the mother ship we will realize that nothing was ever random... except for the fact that we exist... Personally I think we were a genetic mistake by the aliens who were trying to perfect cow cloning and oops... we created humans :P *Puts on his tinfoil hat and sits in the corner with his light saber (8 foot fluorescent light bulb filled with gasoline and lit on fire to get the cool effects) and waits for the aliens return... I only need to look around me to see the order that exists. A desk Not my desk. I've heard that order exist, and when I close my eyes, I can imagine it. Ah there, that's where I find it -- in my head and that's my point*. :-) . Happy Holidays, Merry Xmas (just to be polically incorrect about it ;-) tedd * You know, the point -- what we were talking about, not a point on the top of my head. :-) we've seen you photo - no pointy hair in sight iirc ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 11:01 -0500, Jason Pruim wrote: On Dec 14, 2007, at 10:36 AM, Jochem Maas wrote: tedd wrote: At 11:59 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:21 -0500, tedd wrote: Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Order exists all around us. Maybe around you, but I have a wife, two daughters, and four female grandchildren. that would suggest you live in a world devoid of reason ... which is not the same as order :-P but it's reasonable to assume that it's a fairly chaotic place :-) I don't know much about women... Only married to one, but My Son certainly throws me into chaos at times (Daddy, what does this button do? *Computer shuts off because he found the power strip...) My son is 4 now, he knows what the button does... and for a while he would turn it off knowing full well what would happen. One day he was playing Gamecube and I said, hey what does this button do?. He hasn't turned off the computer in a while :) while we're on the subject of order, I'll have a no. 12, a no. 45 and 2 no.97's please omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. Everything is in place because the Master Machine put it there in what seems a random order but when we die and the aliens take us back to the mother ship we will realize that nothing was ever random... except for the fact that we exist... Personally I think we were a genetic mistake by the aliens who were trying to perfect cow cloning and oops... we created humans :P *Puts on his tinfoil hat and sits in the corner with his light saber (8 foot fluorescent light bulb filled with gasoline and lit on fire to get the cool effects) and waits for the aliens return... I'm sorry, but your AI is off. There's no mothership or universe per se for that matter. It's all a grand simulation. The master coders are watching you! And tinfoil won't help. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Fri, 2007-12-14 at 16:36 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote: tedd wrote: At 11:59 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:21 -0500, tedd wrote: Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Order exists all around us. Maybe around you, but I have a wife, two daughters, and four female grandchildren. that would suggest you live in a world devoid of reason ... which is not the same as order :-P but it's reasonable to assume that it's a fairly chaotic place :-) You guys are so good at dragging me back in... reasons requires order. You can't reason without order. Unless of course you're completely unreasonable. But then, is it random? Who cares about the question of order, that should be another thread. This thread is about random. Of course, the whole though that one thread could have anything to do with something in particular is predicated on the existence of order, so maybe this thread doesn't really exist and no others do either ;) while we're on the subject of order, I'll have a no. 12, a no. 45 and 2 no.97's please omg this is so off topic it's liable to come full circle - actually circles seem pretty damned orderly ... which just leaves the question as to whether circles exist or that we merely projection them onto reality, which is great because that question cannot be objectively answered unless your the one true god(tm) - who probably doesn't give a hoot anyway. The spaghetti monster guy? :D Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:21 -0500, tedd wrote: At 3:35 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:16 -0500, tedd wrote: At 10:17 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. Random seeming you mean. As mentioned in the original post, just because the timeline and sample space is immense doesn't make it random, it just makes it difficult to guess. In fact, someone already mentioned the case of computers in casinos that can predict the landing spot of a roulette ball. Just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's true. I remember in the old days where they used roulette wheels to generate random lists. Seemingly random lists... We haven't proven random yet ;) Cheers, Rob. Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Order exists all around us. I only need to look around me to see the order that exists. A desk, a table, the structure of crystals, etc, etc. Random on the other hand is the one to be proven. I look around and I can also see disorder, but is it random, or is it just messy order. THAT is the question. bla bla bla. neither can ever be proven. proof implies objective truth, given that everything is subjectively experienced there can be no proof ... one could wander into the realms of spirituality and presume for one moment there is a single, indivisible self-realized entity which I would suggest presupposes that neither order nor randomness nor chaos exists .. in order to have any of those requires more than one entity to be present. now the fact that *you* percieve this one indivisible, self-realised entity as fragmented ... is your problem. :-) personally I think you should waste less time on such things and take your wife out for dinner or something ;-) rgds, Jochem PS - Rob, Tedd ... thanks for all the fish! Cheers, Rob. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
[snip] Where's Crayon? [/snip] Steel Cage Death Match with Brad. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 2:22 PM -0600 12/10/07, Jay Blanchard wrote: Without order there cannot be randomness. Without randomness, you wouldn't know what order was. This is one of those yin-yang things. There is simply order and randomness existing in our minds. There is no order, nor randomness, existing in nature, it's our perception, clarification, and categorization of nature that demands attributes be assigned to artificial groupings of identity threshold exceeding objects. In other words, we decide on what IT is and then assign order to IT. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
tedd wrote: At 5:15 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Just for fun, I decided to write out an algorithm to randomize with a never-known seed that would update constantly, with no human or external script intervention required to initiate or maintain it. My guess is that if there was a time that this whatever did not exist, but now does exist, then it cannot be random. It may be random for a billion years, or more, but it would eventually repeat. However, it something started at the instant of the big-bang, then its repeat cycle would be at least equal-to, or greater-than, known time and thus random. Cheers, tedd tedd your as sick as Rob :-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 2:46 PM -0500 12/10/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 11:37 -0800, Stephen Johnson wrote: True randomization is only really possible in nature. Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) Cheers, Rob. Rob: You most certainly have a point there. Our identification, classification, and definition of order is really what's at issue. Order and randomness are simply our perceptions of the world around us and our perception is pretty limited Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 2:32 PM -0500 12/10/07, Nathan Nobbe wrote: Random numbers with Gauss distribution (normal distribution). A correct alghoritm. Without aproximations, like Smaaps' It is specially usefull for simulations in physics. Check yourself, and have a fun. -snip- JanS student of astronomy on Warsaw University Thanks -- I am sure I will use that some time. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 5:15 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Just for fun, I decided to write out an algorithm to randomize with a never-known seed that would update constantly, with no human or external script intervention required to initiate or maintain it. My guess is that if there was a time that this whatever did not exist, but now does exist, then it cannot be random. It may be random for a billion years, or more, but it would eventually repeat. However, it something started at the instant of the big-bang, then its repeat cycle would be at least equal-to, or greater-than, known time and thus random. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 3:04 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 10, 2007 2:28 PM, AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some computer-based simulation, i need to generate random numbers that have a normal distribution. [snip!] Unfortunately, because computers are logical, there's no such thing (at least as of yet) as a truly random number being generated by a machine. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] Unless the computer is tied to a peripheral that samples nature. In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 12, 2007 9:00 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 3:04 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Unfortunately, because computers are logical, there's no such thing (at least as of yet) as a truly random number being generated by a machine. Unless the computer is tied to a peripheral that samples nature. In which case the random number is not being generated by the computer, but rather derived from data interpreted from nature. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:00 -0500, tedd wrote: At 3:04 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 10, 2007 2:28 PM, AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some computer-based simulation, i need to generate random numbers that have a normal distribution. [snip!] Unfortunately, because computers are logical, there's no such thing (at least as of yet) as a truly random number being generated by a machine. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] Unless the computer is tied to a peripheral that samples nature. In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. Random seeming you mean. As mentioned in the original post, just because the timeline and sample space is immense doesn't make it random, it just makes it difficult to guess. In fact, someone already mentioned the case of computers in casinos that can predict the landing spot of a roulette ball. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:00 -0500, tedd wrote: At 2:22 PM -0600 12/10/07, Jay Blanchard wrote: Without order there cannot be randomness. Without randomness, you wouldn't know what order was. You're random with disorder. This is one of those yin-yang things. Not really :) There is simply order and randomness existing in our minds. There is no order, nor randomness, existing in nature, it's our perception, clarification, and categorization of nature that demands attributes be assigned to artificial groupings of identity threshold exceeding objects. In other words, we decide on what IT is and then assign order to IT. Your statement is contradictory. If there is no randomness in nature then there is no randomness in our minds since we are inherently a part of nature-- yes even when we leave plastic lying around everywhere. We aren't the only creatures in nature to make toxic messes (there's a reason that you can't gain a higher alcohol concentration than about 18% through the fermentation process). Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:15 -0500, tedd wrote: At 2:46 PM -0500 12/10/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 11:37 -0800, Stephen Johnson wrote: True randomization is only really possible in nature. Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) Cheers, Rob. Rob: You most certainly have a point there. Our identification, classification, and definition of order is really what's at issue. Order and randomness are simply our perceptions of the world around us and our perception is pretty limited Did you just answer your queue of posts in reverse chronological order? :) Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On 12/12/2007, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 9:00 AM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 3:04 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Unfortunately, because computers are logical, there's no such thing (at least as of yet) as a truly random number being generated by a machine. Unless the computer is tied to a peripheral that samples nature. In which case the random number is not being generated by the computer, but rather derived from data interpreted from nature. Can you define for me where the machine stops and nature starts? I mean, if I make a clock that uses the physical properties of a pendulum to demarcate units of time then the pendulum is obviously part of the machine. But if I make a computer that uses the physical properties of a radio-isotope to generate random numbers, you seem to be be saying that the radio-isotope is not part of the machine, but instead part of nature. -robin -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 08:59 -0500, tedd wrote: At 5:15 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Just for fun, I decided to write out an algorithm to randomize with a never-known seed that would update constantly, with no human or external script intervention required to initiate or maintain it. My guess is that if there was a time that this whatever did not exist, but now does exist, then it cannot be random. It may be random for a billion years, or more, but it would eventually repeat. However, it something started at the instant of the big-bang, then its repeat cycle would be at least equal-to, or greater-than, known time and thus random. Just because something doesn't repeat doesn't make it random. It may be that Pi never repeats and yet we know it is not random. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 10:15 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:00 -0500, tedd wrote: At 2:22 PM -0600 12/10/07, Jay Blanchard wrote: Without order there cannot be randomness. Without randomness, you wouldn't know what order was. You're random with disorder. That should have said You're confusing random with disorder.. But maybe Tedd is also a bit random and disorderly ;) Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
[snip] But maybe Tedd is also a bit random and disorderly ;) [/snip] Maybe? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 12, 2007 10:53 AM, Robin Vickery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you define for me where the machine stops and nature starts? I mean, if I make a clock that uses the physical properties of a pendulum to demarcate units of time then the pendulum is obviously part of the machine. But if I make a computer that uses the physical properties of a radio-isotope to generate random numbers, you seem to be be saying that the radio-isotope is not part of the machine, but instead part of nature. When a pendulum swings, it's slowed, stopped, and reverses direction based upon the equal-opposite force from a combination of gravity and the machine to which it's attached. It is then a part of the machine. A radioactive isotope will decay on its own, regardless of influence from the machine with which it is being monitored. So your argument, creating a likeness between two unrelated parts, is equivalent to saying that all of nature is potentially part of all machines. If I want to turn on a light at random, I could attach an X10 motion detector to a tree in the woods. When a deer happens to walk by, it would trip the motion detector and activate the receiver, which would then allow electricity to flow and power the lamp. By your definition (and please don't take this message as accusatory, it's simply for the love of argument, not a personal attack as some would believe), the deer is then part of the machine, despite it's predetermined and/or externally-influenced (hunting season!) choice of path. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 12, 2007 11:04 AM, Jay Blanchard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] But maybe Tedd is also a bit random and disorderly ;) [/snip] Maybe? In Tedd's defense, there's a fine line between genius and insanity, and he keeps getting closer and closer to that genius side. ;-P I don't think any of us have the right to claim insanity for another when we ourselves are probably not very well-balanced. If the pot calls the kettle black, then it's time to get a new pot that doesn't talk, because that would kinda' freak me out a bit. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 11:16 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 10:53 AM, Robin Vickery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you define for me where the machine stops and nature starts? I mean, if I make a clock that uses the physical properties of a pendulum to demarcate units of time then the pendulum is obviously part of the machine. But if I make a computer that uses the physical properties of a radio-isotope to generate random numbers, you seem to be be saying that the radio-isotope is not part of the machine, but instead part of nature. When a pendulum swings, it's slowed, stopped, and reverses direction based upon the equal-opposite force from a combination of gravity and the machine to which it's attached. It is then a part of the machine. A radioactive isotope will decay on its own, regardless of influence from the machine with which it is being monitored. So your argument, creating a likeness between two unrelated parts, is equivalent to saying that all of nature is potentially part of all machines. If I want to turn on a light at random, I could attach an X10 motion detector to a tree in the woods. When a deer happens to walk by, it would trip the motion detector and activate the receiver, which would then allow electricity to flow and power the lamp. By your definition (and please don't take this message as accusatory, it's simply for the love of argument, not a personal attack as some would believe), the deer is then part of the machine, despite it's predetermined and/or externally-influenced (hunting season!) choice of path. The universe is the machine... all sub machines are part of the greater machine that is the universe. As such, the deer is indeed part of the machine as are the decaying isotopes that were probably formed in some process of the universe. Whether that be the internal reactor of a star or some other event. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
Robert Cummings wrote: The universe is the machine... all sub machines are part of the greater machine that is the universe. heh, that makes me a browser. :-P -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 12, 2007 11:26 AM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The universe is the machine... all sub machines are part of the greater machine that is the universe. As such, the deer is indeed part of the machine as are the decaying isotopes that were probably formed in some process of the universe. Whether that be the internal reactor of a star or some other event. I completely agree, and I was waiting for someone to throw in the Grand Scheme concept (no surprise that it's you, Cummings! ;-P), but that's beyond the scope of the machine we're discussing. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 12, 2007, at 11:31 AM, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 11:26 AM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The universe is the machine... all sub machines are part of the greater machine that is the universe. As such, the deer is indeed part of the machine as are the decaying isotopes that were probably formed in some process of the universe. Whether that be the internal reactor of a star or some other event. I completely agree, and I was waiting for someone to throw in the Grand Scheme concept (no surprise that it's you, Cummings! ;-P), but that's beyond the scope of the machine we're discussing. And since when did scope ever stop anything on this list? BTW Deer taste good *Gets ready to duck from all the non-deer eating people* -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 3251 132nd ave Holland, MI, 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 11:43 -0500, Jason Pruim wrote: On Dec 12, 2007, at 11:31 AM, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 11:26 AM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The universe is the machine... all sub machines are part of the greater machine that is the universe. As such, the deer is indeed part of the machine as are the decaying isotopes that were probably formed in some process of the universe. Whether that be the internal reactor of a star or some other event. I completely agree, and I was waiting for someone to throw in the Grand Scheme concept (no surprise that it's you, Cummings! ;-P), but that's beyond the scope of the machine we're discussing. And since when did scope ever stop anything on this list? BTW Deer taste good *Gets ready to duck from all the non-deer eating people* I have some deer sirloins in the freezer, great on the BBQ. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 17:50 +0100, Jochem Maas wrote: Robert Cummings wrote: The universe is the machine... all sub machines are part of the greater machine that is the universe. heh, that makes me a browser. :-P Not IE I hope :B Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 3:13 PM +0100 12/12/07, Jochem Maas wrote: tedd wrote: At 5:15 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Just for fun, I decided to write out an algorithm to randomize with a never-known seed that would update constantly, with no human or external script intervention required to initiate or maintain it. My guess is that if there was a time that this whatever did not exist, but now does exist, then it cannot be random. It may be random for a billion years, or more, but it would eventually repeat. However, it something started at the instant of the big-bang, then its repeat cycle would be at least equal-to, or greater-than, known time and thus random. Cheers, tedd tedd your as sick as Rob :-) Thank you. That puts me in good company. Sick minds think alike. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 10:12 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 08:59 -0500, tedd wrote: At 5:15 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Just for fun, I decided to write out an algorithm to randomize with a never-known seed that would update constantly, with no human or external script intervention required to initiate or maintain it. [1]My guess is that if there was a time that this whatever did not exist, but now does exist, then it cannot be random. It may be random for a billion years, or more, but it would eventually repeat. [2]However, it something started at the instant of the big-bang, then its repeat cycle would be at least equal-to, or greater-than, known time and thus random. Just because something doesn't repeat doesn't make it random. It may be that Pi never repeats and yet we know it is not random. Cheers, Rob. Yes, that's a good observation, but look to rule [1] -- when did Pi come about? Again, it's one of those food for thought arguments. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 11:43 AM -0500 12/12/07, Jason Pruim wrote: *Gets ready to duck from all the non-deer eating people* Drat! There are lot's of things that are non-deer -- even ducks. But they don't all eat people. The world is getting out of whack again. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 10:04 AM -0600 12/12/07, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] But maybe Tedd is also a bit random and disorderly ;) [/snip] Maybe? Hey! I resemble that remark. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 11:00 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 10:15 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:00 -0500, tedd wrote: At 2:22 PM -0600 12/10/07, Jay Blanchard wrote: Without order there cannot be randomness. Without randomness, you wouldn't know what order was. You're random with disorder. That should have said You're confusing random with disorder.. But maybe Tedd is also a bit random and disorderly ;) Cheers, Rob. Yes, but what if my disorder was random? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 10:18 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:15 -0500, tedd wrote: You most certainly have a point there. Our identification, classification, and definition of order is really what's at issue. Order and randomness are simply our perceptions of the world around us and our perception is pretty limited Did you just answer your queue of posts in reverse chronological order? :) It doesn't make any difference -- I'm stateless. My opinion is always the same regardless of how many times I change it. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 10:17 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. Random seeming you mean. As mentioned in the original post, just because the timeline and sample space is immense doesn't make it random, it just makes it difficult to guess. In fact, someone already mentioned the case of computers in casinos that can predict the landing spot of a roulette ball. Just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's true. I remember in the old days where they used roulette wheels to generate random lists. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 10:15 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:00 -0500, tedd wrote: There is simply order and randomness existing in our minds. There is no order, nor randomness, existing in nature, it's our perception, clarification, and categorization of nature that demands attributes be assigned to artificial groupings of identity threshold exceeding objects. In other words, we decide on what IT is and then assign order to IT. Your statement is contradictory. If there is no randomness in nature then there is no randomness in our minds since we are inherently a part of nature-- yes even when we leave plastic lying around everywhere. We aren't the only creatures in nature to make toxic messes (there's a reason that you can't gain a higher alcohol concentration than about 18% through the fermentation process). Cheers, Rob. Just because we come from nature, does not mean that our perception of randomness and order is forced upon Nature -- Nature is what Nature does. Our minds are not complete (some less than others) and we do not have everything solved. It is part of our survival mechanism to understand the world around us and we are continually adding to our collective knowledge -- it's the great equalizer between us and other critters. We've developed a system for observation and it's that system that is problematic in trying to determine and apply artificial terms for order and randomness. Granted it's a pretty good system, better than any other critters, but certainly not flawless. I can look out over the Mojave desert and see tumbleweeds growing in cubic-closest packing (as I've done). I can reason and postulate why they grow that way, but the tumbleweeds don't give a hoot -- they just grow that way. Just because we think, does not prove randomness, nor order, in nature -- it only proves that we think about it. As for plastic -- either Mother Nature will deal with plastic or we'll add another rock-type to the stratigraphic record. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 12, 2007 1:16 PM, tedd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:17 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. Random seeming you mean. As mentioned in the original post, just because the timeline and sample space is immense doesn't make it random, it just makes it difficult to guess. In fact, someone already mentioned the case of computers in casinos that can predict the landing spot of a roulette ball. Just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's true. pfft; just because you dont believe it doenst mean its false. the show was on pbs. there were 2 guys studying chaos theory. its a typical story. one guy thinks he can do it.. talks the other guy into dropping out of college, then they really dig in. basically they way it worked is, they could predict a portion of the wheel where the ball would land, not the exact position. in fact they could get the result within 1/8 of the wheel. this turned out to be very convenient, because they would bet on an eighth of the table size every time, whereas others would be on an exact position of the table. this appeared inconspicuous. they then trained their people to make conservative bets to further avert attention. if pbs had a database that actually worked, i would find the name of the program and have more specific details for you. I remember in the old days where they used roulette wheels to generate random lists. get with the times; these are the days of decaying isotopes :-O -nathan
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 12:40 -0500, tedd wrote: At 10:12 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 08:59 -0500, tedd wrote: At 5:15 PM -0500 12/10/07, Daniel Brown wrote: Just for fun, I decided to write out an algorithm to randomize with a never-known seed that would update constantly, with no human or external script intervention required to initiate or maintain it. [1]My guess is that if there was a time that this whatever did not exist, but now does exist, then it cannot be random. It may be random for a billion years, or more, but it would eventually repeat. [2]However, it something started at the instant of the big-bang, then its repeat cycle would be at least equal-to, or greater-than, known time and thus random. Just because something doesn't repeat doesn't make it random. It may be that Pi never repeats and yet we know it is not random. Cheers, Rob. Yes, that's a good observation, but look to rule [1] -- when did Pi come about? You mean guess [1] :) At any rate I'm not sure how assertion [1] affects the observation. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:16 -0500, tedd wrote: At 10:17 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. Random seeming you mean. As mentioned in the original post, just because the timeline and sample space is immense doesn't make it random, it just makes it difficult to guess. In fact, someone already mentioned the case of computers in casinos that can predict the landing spot of a roulette ball. Just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's true. I remember in the old days where they used roulette wheels to generate random lists. Seemingly random lists... We haven't proven random yet ;) Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:18 -0500, tedd wrote: At 10:18 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:15 -0500, tedd wrote: You most certainly have a point there. Our identification, classification, and definition of order is really what's at issue. Order and randomness are simply our perceptions of the world around us and our perception is pretty limited Did you just answer your queue of posts in reverse chronological order? :) It doesn't make any difference -- I'm stateless. My opinion is always the same regardless of how many times I change it. Contradiction. Change implies not the same. I'm sure your tongue was in your cheek though when you wrote it :) Cheers, Rob -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:21 -0500, tedd wrote: At 11:00 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 10:15 -0500, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:00 -0500, tedd wrote: At 2:22 PM -0600 12/10/07, Jay Blanchard wrote: Without order there cannot be randomness. Without randomness, you wouldn't know what order was. You're random with disorder. That should have said You're confusing random with disorder.. But maybe Tedd is also a bit random and disorderly ;) Cheers, Rob. Yes, but what if my disorder was random? How could you prove it is random? Give me an example of something you can put into disorder that doesn't use the premise of order? For instance throwing a handful of sand into the air is expected to obey the establish laws of physics. These laws of physics suggest order in the universe even when we perceive disorder. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:13 -0500, tedd wrote: At 10:15 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 09:00 -0500, tedd wrote: There is simply order and randomness existing in our minds. There is no order, nor randomness, existing in nature, it's our perception, clarification, and categorization of nature that demands attributes be assigned to artificial groupings of identity threshold exceeding objects. In other words, we decide on what IT is and then assign order to IT. Your statement is contradictory. If there is no randomness in nature then there is no randomness in our minds since we are inherently a part of nature-- yes even when we leave plastic lying around everywhere. We aren't the only creatures in nature to make toxic messes (there's a reason that you can't gain a higher alcohol concentration than about 18% through the fermentation process). Cheers, Rob. Just because we think, does not prove randomness, nor order, in nature -- it only proves that we think about it. Actually, order is proven. The fact that I can re-arrange objects into an order proves it exists, the accuracy of the ordering may fall into question, but not that they are ordered. It's random that can't be proven. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 1:33 PM -0500 12/12/07, Nathan Nobbe wrote: On Dec 12, 2007 1:16 PM, tedd mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's true. pfft; just because you dont believe it doenst mean its false. Nope, but I find it difficult o believe. I remember in the old days where they used roulette wheels to generate random lists. get with the times; these are the days of decaying isotopes :-O Just because I remember it, doesn't mean that I'm not with it. When I start forgetting, then you can say that. :-) I'm adding that the people who put the first man on the moon with their slide rules also used roulette wheels as random number generators. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 3:36 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:18 -0500, tedd wrote: My opinion is always the same regardless of how many times I change it. Contradiction. Change implies not the same. I'm sure your tongue was in your cheek though when you wrote it :) Cheers, Rob Rob: Yep, that's what it was meant to be. When I worked for ATT, we used to run cable from equipment bays to other equipment bays. I used to delight in telling the foreman No matter how many times I cut this cable, it's still too short! Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 3:42 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Yes, but what if my disorder was random? How could you prove it is random? Give me an example of something you can put into disorder that doesn't use the premise of order? For instance throwing a handful of sand into the air is expected to obey the establish laws of physics. These laws of physics suggest order in the universe even when we perceive disorder. Cheers, Rob. Yes, but now we're getting back to artificial rules of the mind. We perceive the laws of physics to work a certain way because we have established rules as to how they should work. But, what happens when they don't work? Then we change the rules. We are now at string theory and things still remain disordered. All our efforts to put order to things still fall short. Also, when we do change our rules, nature hasn't changed. Nature hasn't suddenly changed to our view, but rather we change our thinking to adapt to observation. And it's in those terms of observation that order and disorder of things comes about and not in nature. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 3:35 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:16 -0500, tedd wrote: At 10:17 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. Random seeming you mean. As mentioned in the original post, just because the timeline and sample space is immense doesn't make it random, it just makes it difficult to guess. In fact, someone already mentioned the case of computers in casinos that can predict the landing spot of a roulette ball. Just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's true. I remember in the old days where they used roulette wheels to generate random lists. Seemingly random lists... We haven't proven random yet ;) Cheers, Rob. Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
At 3:34 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:13 -0500, tedd wrote: Just because we think, does not prove randomness, nor order, in nature -- it only proves that we think about it. Actually, order is proven. The fact that I can re-arrange objects into an order proves it exists, the accuracy of the ordering may fall into question, but not that they are ordered. It's random that can't be proven. Cheers, Rob. No, just because you can re-arrange objects to your definition of order does not mean they are ordered -- unless you are making one of those begging the question arguments (i.e., I ordered it, therefore it's ordered). Instead, I claim that you perceive order, when there is not, other than in your mind, and that's the point. One might claim that if you could order things, then they would remain ordered -- but nothing remains stagnant. Furthermore, what you claim as ordered will not necessarily be in order by another observer. As such, order is an abstract concept of the mind, nothing else. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 12, 2007 3:42 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How could you prove it is random? Give me an example of something you can put into disorder that doesn't use the premise of order? For instance throwing a handful of sand into the air is expected to obey the establish laws of physics. These laws of physics suggest order in the universe even when we perceive disorder. Quite honestly, with as much as we're disproving about the laws of physics, they should probably first be introduced as bills and then voted upon by the community. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
-Original Message- From: tedd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2007 6:35 PM To: PHP General list Subject: RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution At 3:42 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Yes, but what if my disorder was random? How could you prove it is random? Give me an example of something you can put into disorder that doesn't use the premise of order? For instance throwing a handful of sand into the air is expected to obey the establish laws of physics. These laws of physics suggest order in the universe even when we perceive disorder. Cheers, Rob. Yes, but now we're getting back to artificial rules of the mind. We perceive the laws of physics to work a certain way because we have established rules as to how they should work. But, what happens when they don't work? Then we change the rules. We are now at string theory and things still remain disordered. All our efforts to put order to things still fall short. Also, when we do change our rules, nature hasn't changed. Nature hasn't suddenly changed to our view, but rather we change our thinking to adapt to observation. And it's in those terms of observation that order and disorder of things comes about and not in nature. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Ok... I guess you have too much free time to run into such a philosophical meditation, lol. Anyway, being an existentialist and empiricist... I won't believe in a random number until I see it, smell it, hear it, taste it and touch it here and now! lol Rob Andrés Robinet | Lead Developer | BESTPLACE CORPORATION 5100 Bayview Drive 206, Royal Lauderdale Landings, Fort Lauderdale, FL 33308 | TEL 954-607-4207 | FAX 954-337-2695 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | MSN Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | SKYPE: bestplace | Web: http://www.bestplace.biz | Web: http://www.seo-diy.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:20 -0500, tedd wrote: At 3:34 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:13 -0500, tedd wrote: Just because we think, does not prove randomness, nor order, in nature -- it only proves that we think about it. Actually, order is proven. The fact that I can re-arrange objects into an order proves it exists, the accuracy of the ordering may fall into question, but not that they are ordered. It's random that can't be proven. Cheers, Rob. No, just because you can re-arrange objects to your definition of order does not mean they are ordered -- unless you are making one of those begging the question arguments (i.e., I ordered it, therefore it's ordered). Actually it does mean they're ordered. I re-arranged them from their previous order/disorder. As such I exerted control. Control facilitates order. The fact that I moved it from A to B means I controlled it, since I controlled it I ordered it. This is not begging the question. Instead, I claim that you perceive order, when there is not, other than in your mind, and that's the point. One might claim that if you could order things, then they would remain ordered -- but nothing remains stagnant. Furthermore, what you claim as ordered will not necessarily be in order by another observer. As such, order is an abstract concept of the mind, nothing else. Other observers aren't important since reality is what *I* observe. Additionally, the fact that I order something for any moment of time, however infinitely small, still means I ordered it. The fact that the order decays due to other influences just reinforces the fact that there are other rules at play that order the universe according to the execution of those rules... aka physics. This brings us back to the greater machine at play-- the universe, and how we are just machines within the large machine. We can order things, but the greater machine has final say since it is already running and we are within its influence. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:21 -0500, tedd wrote: At 3:35 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 13:16 -0500, tedd wrote: At 10:17 AM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: In my ancient past I worked with a x-ray detector and we simply truncated to the tens digit -- that was pretty random. Random seeming you mean. As mentioned in the original post, just because the timeline and sample space is immense doesn't make it random, it just makes it difficult to guess. In fact, someone already mentioned the case of computers in casinos that can predict the landing spot of a roulette ball. Just because someone said it, doesn't mean it's true. I remember in the old days where they used roulette wheels to generate random lists. Seemingly random lists... We haven't proven random yet ;) Cheers, Rob. Yeah, but we haven't proven order yet either. :-) Order exists all around us. I only need to look around me to see the order that exists. A desk, a table, the structure of crystals, etc, etc. Random on the other hand is the one to be proven. I look around and I can also see disorder, but is it random, or is it just messy order. THAT is the question. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Wed, 2007-12-12 at 16:34 -0500, tedd wrote: At 3:42 PM -0500 12/12/07, Robert Cummings wrote: Yes, but what if my disorder was random? How could you prove it is random? Give me an example of something you can put into disorder that doesn't use the premise of order? For instance throwing a handful of sand into the air is expected to obey the establish laws of physics. These laws of physics suggest order in the universe even when we perceive disorder. Cheers, Rob. Yes, but now we're getting back to artificial rules of the mind. We perceive the laws of physics to work a certain way because we have established rules as to how they should work. But, what happens when they don't work? Then we change the rules. We are now at string theory and things still remain disordered. All our efforts to put order to things still fall short. Also, when we do change our rules, nature hasn't changed. Nature hasn't suddenly changed to our view, but rather we change our thinking to adapt to observation. And it's in those terms of observation that order and disorder of things comes about and not in nature. Once again, we're not trying to prove order. Order obviously exists. But does random? Do the laws of physics randomly change? Just because we're wrong about something doesn't change the machine. The machine is the same, our understanding is the only thing that has changed. Even if the machine changes has it done so randomly? Or according to some rule? Anyways, this thread could go on forever. Order obviously exists, our interpretation of what causes that order may be right or wrong, but it doesn't change the existence of that order. That said we have no obvious proof that random exists. Looking around I can't say look there, that certainly is random. All I can say is that it is seemingly random, it appears very disordered to me. I'm going to bail on this thread now... it's gone on too long :) Fun though. Where's Crayon? Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On 10/12/2007, Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 10, 2007 5:29 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 14:22 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) [/snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? i would have to say randomness came before order. but i suppose thats a chicken and egg problem.. In the worlds before Monkey, primal chaos reigned. Heavens sought order. But the phoenix can fly only when its feathers are grown. The four worlds formed again and yet again, as endless aeons wheeled and passed. Time and the pure essence of Heaven, the moisture of the Earth, the powers of the Sun and the Moon all worked upon a certain rock, old as creation. And it became magically fertile. That first egg was named Thought. Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said, With our thoughts, we make the World. Elemental forces caused the egg to hatch. From it came a stone monkey. The nature of Monkey was irrepressible! Monkeey -robin [I'll get my coat...] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
[snip] ...stuff... [/snip] It is also wise to remember that order and randomness are relative, making each less or more so dependent upon observation and observation changes the observed. Furthermore 'random numbers with normal distribution' implies that there is certain order to the randomness since normal distribution typically follows a bell curve. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
True randomization is only really possible in nature, so I am not sure you ever be completely happy with programming random numbers... But it may help you get better results if you include srand() in your randomization code. -- Stephen Johnson c | eh The Lone Coder http://www.thelonecoder.com continuing the struggle against bad code http://www.thumbnailresume.com -- From: AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:58:36 +0330 To: PHP General list php-general@lists.php.net Subject: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution Dear list, For some computer-based simulation, i need to generate random numbers that have a normal distribution. It seems that PHP's rand() and mt_rand() functions return uniformly distributed numbers which is not suitable for simulation purposes. Is there any way to generate random numbers with normal distribution in PHP? Thanks in advance -abe -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 2:37 PM, Stephen Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: True randomization is only really possible in nature, so I am not sure you ever be completely happy with programming random numbers... But it may help you get better results if you include srand() in your randomization code. the seeding methods have been deprecated; this from the manual: *Note*: As of PHP 4.2.0, there is no need to seed the random number generator with srand() http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.srand.php or mt_srand() http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.mt-srand.php as this is now done automatically. -nathan
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
LOL.. Guess I need to keep up with the change log a little better... -- Stephen Johnson c | eh The Lone Coder http://www.thelonecoder.com continuing the struggle against bad code http://www.thumbnailresume.com -- From: Nathan Nobbe [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:40:36 -0500 To: Stephen Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED], PHP General list php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution On Dec 10, 2007 2:37 PM, Stephen Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: True randomization is only really possible in nature, so I am not sure you ever be completely happy with programming random numbers... But it may help you get better results if you include srand() in your randomization code. the seeding methods have been deprecated; this from the manual: *Note*: As of PHP 4.2.0, there is no need to seed the random number generator with srand() http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.srand.php or mt_srand() http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.mt-srand.php as this is now done automatically. -nathan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
if you really want to.. you can hook various devices up to your serial/parallel port and take specific readings, and from there compute some really great random numbers.. i think white noise from frequency generators/scopes have been used by research functions... google is your friend in this regard!! however, for what you're trying to accomplish, php (or any other language) is probably more than quite suitable!! have fun -Original Message- From: Nathan Nobbe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:41 AM To: Stephen Johnson Cc: AmirBehzad Eslami; PHP General list Subject: Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution On Dec 10, 2007 2:37 PM, Stephen Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: True randomization is only really possible in nature, so I am not sure you ever be completely happy with programming random numbers... But it may help you get better results if you include srand() in your randomization code. the seeding methods have been deprecated; this from the manual: *Note*: As of PHP 4.2.0, there is no need to seed the random number generator with srand() http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.srand.php or mt_srand() http://us3.php.net/manual/en/function.mt-srand.php as this is now done automatically. -nathan -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 11:37 -0800, Stephen Johnson wrote: True randomization is only really possible in nature. Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 2:28 PM, AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear list,
For some computer-based simulation, i need to
generate random numbers that have a normal distribution.
It seems that PHP's rand() and mt_rand() functions return
uniformly distributed numbers which is not suitable for
simulation purposes.
Is there any way to generate random numbers with
normal distribution in PHP?
this is straight from a comment on the rand() documentation:
http://us3.php.net/rand
-nathan
Random numbers with Gauss distribution (normal distribution).
A correct alghoritm. Without aproximations, like Smaaps'
It is specially usefull for simulations in physics.
Check yourself, and have a fun.
?php
function gauss()
{ // N(0,1)
// returns random number with normal distribution:
// mean=0
// std dev=1
// auxilary vars
$x=random_0_1();
$y=random_0_1();
// two independent variables with normal distribution N(0,1)
$u=sqrt(-2*log($x))*cos(2*pi()*$y);
$v=sqrt(-2*log($x))*sin(2*pi()*$y);
// i will return only one, couse only one needed
return $u;
}
function gauss_ms($m=0.0,$s=1.0)
{ // N(m,s)
// returns random number with normal distribution:
// mean=m
// std dev=s
return gauss()*$s+$m;
}
function random_0_1()
{ // auxiliary function
// returns random number with flat distribution from 0 to 1
return (float)rand()/(float)getrandmax();
}
?
JanS
student of astronomy
on Warsaw University
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
stop... trying to make people think bad... bad!!! -Original Message- From: Robert Cummings [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2007 11:47 AM To: Stephen Johnson Cc: AmirBehzad Eslami; PHP General list Subject: Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 11:37 -0800, Stephen Johnson wrote: True randomization is only really possible in nature. Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
Wow... You clearly put a lot of thought into randomization... I am impressed..LOL Personally, most of my web applications do not have to factor 13.7 billion years of space drift in to the calculations, so php's rand function has been great for me... ;) -- Stephen Johnson c | eh The Lone Coder http://www.thelonecoder.com continuing the struggle against bad code http://www.thumbnailresume.com -- From: Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: InterJinn Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 14:46:47 -0500 To: Stephen Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED], PHP General list php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 2:28 PM, AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some computer-based simulation, i need to generate random numbers that have a normal distribution. [snip!] Unfortunately, because computers are logical, there's no such thing (at least as of yet) as a truly random number being generated by a machine. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 3:04 PM, Daniel Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 10, 2007 2:28 PM, AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For some computer-based simulation, i need to generate random numbers that have a normal distribution. [snip!] Unfortunately, because computers are logical, there's no such thing (at least as of yet) as a truly random number being generated by a machine. Hmph. I only sent that message about 35 minutes ago -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
[snip] Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) [/snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 2:28 PM, AmirBehzad Eslami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear list, For some computer-based simulation, i need to generate random numbers that have a normal distribution. It seems that PHP's rand() and mt_rand() functions return uniformly distributed numbers which is not suitable for simulation purposes. Just for fun, I decided to write out an algorithm to randomize with a never-known seed that would update constantly, with no human or external script intervention required to initiate or maintain it. What I came up with to count all CPU processing percentages of all PIDs on the system, concatenate them into a single, long string, and then add each number, in turn, to a running total; each number, in succession, is added the sum of all numbers before it, until the end of the number string has been reached. Then the function runs through some other routines to see if certain conditions are matched, and eventually returns the randomized number. Keep in mind that this is just something I put together in about 20 minutes, so it's far from perfect, but feel free to check it out. http://www.pilotpig.net/code-library/source.php?f=rand.php -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
bruce wrote: if you really want to.. you can hook various devices up to your serial/parallel port and take specific readings, and from there compute some really great random numbers.. That's pretty much what /dev/random does for you. /Per Jessen, Zürich -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 14:22 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) [/snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
[snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? [/snip] Yes -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 5:29 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 14:22 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Can you say for certain nature is truly random? Just because the seed may have occurred 13.7 billion years ago and we don't know what that initial state was and we couldn't possibly calculate all the interactions since, doesn't mean that everything since hasn't been happening in accordance with some universal formula and in absence of randomness. We know that there appear to be certain laws in physics, would they not have applied to that initial state in a non random manner? It may just be that due to the hugantic sample space from which to draw arbitrary values that we think things are random. Food for thought :) [/snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? i would have to say randomness came before order. but i suppose thats a chicken and egg problem.. btw, i found this later today; http://us.php.net/manual/en/ref.stats.php there is a function in there for getting a random value from a normal distribution: stats_rand_gen_normal but it looks to be in pecl and i didnt see it in portage so i gave up on trying it out pretty quickly =/ -nathan
RE: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 16:32 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? [/snip] But disorder isn't necessarily random. Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 16:32 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? [/snip] But disorder isn't necessarily random. Unless you get into Shannon entropy, but that still doesn't disprove your statement. -- Daniel P. Brown [Phone Numbers Go Here!] [They're Hidden From View!] If at first you don't succeed, stick to what you know best so that you can make enough money to pay someone else to do it for you. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 17:45 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 16:32 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? [/snip] But disorder isn't necessarily random. Unless you get into Shannon entropy, but that still doesn't disprove your statement. Shannon entropy (from what I briefly scanned) is based upon the presumption of random. As such you can't use it to argue a case for the existence of true random. Entropy is merely the tendency of an ordered state to move toward disorder. It also doesn't in any way make an argument for random. For instance, let's say I order 10 peas into a line in a straw. I then shoot them all at a target which they more or less hit and scatter. The peas are now in disorder, but their places of rest (presuming we're not in outer space ;) would be the logical outcome of the application of the laws of physics with respect to mass, force, angle, gravity, etc. They aren't randomly lying on the ground. Although, one might casually choose their resting locations to derive a pseudo-random number since it is unlikely one could easily guess the precise landing location of each pea. Anyways... this was just a fun sidetrack like we used to get our teachers on when we were kids :) Cheers, Rob. -- ... SwarmBuy.com - http://www.swarmbuy.com Leveraging the buying power of the masses! ... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
Rob your sick ;-) this thread made me think about the Observer Effect - probably the randomness is just in your/my/his/her head :-P or we're all green men or something. Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 17:45 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 16:32 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? [/snip] But disorder isn't necessarily random. Unless you get into Shannon entropy, but that still doesn't disprove your statement. Shannon entropy (from what I briefly scanned) is based upon the presumption of random. As such you can't use it to argue a case for the existence of true random. Entropy is merely the tendency of an ordered state to move toward disorder. It also doesn't in any way make an argument for random. For instance, let's say I order 10 peas into a line in a straw. I then shoot them all at a target which they more or less hit and scatter. The peas are now in disorder, but their places of rest (presuming we're not in outer space ;) would be the logical outcome of the application of the laws of physics with respect to mass, force, angle, gravity, etc. They aren't randomly lying on the ground. Although, one might casually choose their resting locations to derive a pseudo-random number since it is unlikely one could easily guess the precise landing location of each pea. Anyways... this was just a fun sidetrack like we used to get our teachers on when we were kids :) Cheers, Rob. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Mon, December 10, 2007 1:37 pm, Stephen Johnson wrote: ever be completely happy with programming random numbers... But it may help you get better results if you include srand() in your randomization code. srand and mt_srand have been no-ops (done internally once at startup) since version (mumble mumble). Adding them in current versions will make zero difference. -- Some people have a gift link here. Know what I want? I want you to buy a CD from some indie artist. http://cdbaby.com/from/lynch Yeah, I get a buck. So? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Generating Random Numbers with Normal Distribution
On Dec 10, 2007 5:56 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 17:45 -0500, Daniel Brown wrote: On Dec 10, 2007 5:39 PM, Robert Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-12-10 at 16:32 -0600, Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Without order there cannot be randomness. But is the reverse true? [/snip] But disorder isn't necessarily random. Unless you get into Shannon entropy, but that still doesn't disprove your statement. Shannon entropy (from what I briefly scanned) is based upon the presumption of random. As such you can't use it to argue a case for the existence of true random. Entropy is merely the tendency of an ordered state to move toward disorder. It also doesn't in any way make an argument for random. For instance, let's say I order 10 peas into a line in a straw. I then shoot them all at a target which they more or less hit and scatter. The peas are now in disorder, but their places of rest (presuming we're not in outer space ;) would be the logical outcome of the application of the laws of physics with respect to mass, force, angle, gravity, etc. They aren't randomly lying on the ground. Although, one might casually choose their resting locations to derive a pseudo-random number since it is unlikely one could easily guess the precise landing location of each pea. actually a couple of guys spent some time to figure that out many years back and applied it to the roulette wheel. they made a small computer you could put in your shoe and trained a bunch of people how to use it. they then sent the people out to various casinos and became millionares. -nathan
