Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Chuck Hast]

What drives me up a wall is seeing houses wired with Romex and it is stapled
down to the wood. If you have to pull that sucker out you have to tear the
whole wall out to get to it and remove it, I have also seen staples that
broke
through the insolation enough that especially in warm climates the remaining
plastic isolation would migrate, you get a short and either the breaker
opens
or the short is a hot short but does not pull enough current to toss the
breaker
but now you have a hot spot or fire... I replaced all of that with conduit
and
stranded wire, solid wire is another thing that I have never understood I
do not
believe that I have been in another country where they allowed solid wire,
only in our country. When I lived in Costa Rica, solid wire was banned, same
went for Mexico, and I do not recall seeing it in the other countries I
live in
either.

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 12:24 PM, Erik Lane  wrote:

> I think the biggest benefit to the inspections (for me) is when I move into
> a house that I know nothing about. Especially for plumbing and electrical,
> I want to know that the work was at least looked at by a third party that
> knows their stuff. (Though I guess for roofing and structural it's also
> pretty important.) I've seen some CRAZY stuff out there, and anything
> hidden inside a wall will likely stay that way until it comes out to bite
> you. No way to inspect for that when you're buying a house...
>
> Yes, when I'm doing my own work and know it's good it's a hassle to bother
> with the permit and inspections, but in that case I think of it mainly as
> protecting people down the road. (They have no way of knowing that I do
> quality work, except that it passed inspection.)
>
> I like that idea of having lighting on its own panel and so many separate
> circuits for different things in preparation for solar. It would sure give
> you fine-grained control! Never going to happen at this house, though.
> Reworking everything and tearing it apart just doesn't make sense unless I
> was going to get into all the walls anyway, and of course I'm not planning
> to. (Knock on wood. :)  )
>
>  source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=icon>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
>  source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=webmail_term=link>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Chuck Hast  wrote:
>
> > Exactly, most of my electrical work has been industrial, one receptacle
> per
> > breaker type work. When I went in to redo the home in Tampa, I found as
> > many as 6 receptacles per breaker, needless to say I fixed that because
> of
> > the same issue, wife can always find the receptacle that has a big load
> on
> > it and plug something else in and toss the breaker. So when I rewired it
> I
> > put
> > one receptacle/breaker. 12Ga wire and 20 amp service to all of them, used
> > industrial grade receptacles (20amp) so had no issues with her doing her
> > thing on ONE but each had its own breaker. The lighting I put on a
> separate
> > panel as I was planning on that being the first part to go solar. I had
> > moved
> > to all CFL and was starting to move to LED. I had the power consumption
> > for lighting down to 400 watts with both all inside and outside (had some
> > 150W
> > CFLs) normal operations, I would see between 25 and 50W of pull with a
> > normal set of lights on in the home at any given time. Most of the time
> it
> > was
> > at or below the 25W level.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Dick Steffens 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > On 04/06/2017 07:56 AM, Chuck Hast wrote:
> > > > Yea, I keep on forgetting that for a lot of things out here you need
> a
> > > > permit. The
> > > > one thing I miss about FL. I replaced all of the wiring in one house
> > had
> > > a
> > > > good
> > > > electrician friend come over took a look at it said it was ABOVE spec
> > and
> > > > gave
> > > > it his blessing. I understand when it is a commercial job or
> something
> > > like
> > > > a res-
> > > > idential rewire ( I was getting my place ready to add solar panels
> and
> > > > separate
> > > > the low power consumption parts from the high power consumers) but
> even
> > > > then to demand a permit for everything is just way beyond what I see
> as
> > > > good.
> > > >
> > > > Bureaucracy run wild.
> > >
> > > There's a good side to the permit/inspection bureaucracy, as well as
> the
> > > annoying side. It's an insurance plus to have had a permit/inspection
> if
> > > something goes wrong down the road. On the other hand, I know that some
> > > things that are "to code" aren't as good as what I want. And while what
> > > I want isn't against the code, it's also not what a typical electrician
> > > would do. Back in the '90s my wife and I volunteered with Habitat for
> > > Humanity on a project in Aloha. A 

Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Erik Lane]

I think the biggest benefit to the inspections (for me) is when I move into
a house that I know nothing about. Especially for plumbing and electrical,
I want to know that the work was at least looked at by a third party that
knows their stuff. (Though I guess for roofing and structural it's also
pretty important.) I've seen some CRAZY stuff out there, and anything
hidden inside a wall will likely stay that way until it comes out to bite
you. No way to inspect for that when you're buying a house...

Yes, when I'm doing my own work and know it's good it's a hassle to bother
with the permit and inspections, but in that case I think of it mainly as
protecting people down the road. (They have no way of knowing that I do
quality work, except that it passed inspection.)

I like that idea of having lighting on its own panel and so many separate
circuits for different things in preparation for solar. It would sure give
you fine-grained control! Never going to happen at this house, though.
Reworking everything and tearing it apart just doesn't make sense unless I
was going to get into all the walls anyway, and of course I'm not planning
to. (Knock on wood. :)  )


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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Chuck Hast  wrote:

> Exactly, most of my electrical work has been industrial, one receptacle per
> breaker type work. When I went in to redo the home in Tampa, I found as
> many as 6 receptacles per breaker, needless to say I fixed that because of
> the same issue, wife can always find the receptacle that has a big load on
> it and plug something else in and toss the breaker. So when I rewired it I
> put
> one receptacle/breaker. 12Ga wire and 20 amp service to all of them, used
> industrial grade receptacles (20amp) so had no issues with her doing her
> thing on ONE but each had its own breaker. The lighting I put on a separate
> panel as I was planning on that being the first part to go solar. I had
> moved
> to all CFL and was starting to move to LED. I had the power consumption
> for lighting down to 400 watts with both all inside and outside (had some
> 150W
> CFLs) normal operations, I would see between 25 and 50W of pull with a
> normal set of lights on in the home at any given time. Most of the time it
> was
> at or below the 25W level.
>
> On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Dick Steffens 
> wrote:
>
> > On 04/06/2017 07:56 AM, Chuck Hast wrote:
> > > Yea, I keep on forgetting that for a lot of things out here you need a
> > > permit. The
> > > one thing I miss about FL. I replaced all of the wiring in one house
> had
> > a
> > > good
> > > electrician friend come over took a look at it said it was ABOVE spec
> and
> > > gave
> > > it his blessing. I understand when it is a commercial job or something
> > like
> > > a res-
> > > idential rewire ( I was getting my place ready to add solar panels and
> > > separate
> > > the low power consumption parts from the high power consumers) but even
> > > then to demand a permit for everything is just way beyond what I see as
> > > good.
> > >
> > > Bureaucracy run wild.
> >
> > There's a good side to the permit/inspection bureaucracy, as well as the
> > annoying side. It's an insurance plus to have had a permit/inspection if
> > something goes wrong down the road. On the other hand, I know that some
> > things that are "to code" aren't as good as what I want. And while what
> > I want isn't against the code, it's also not what a typical electrician
> > would do. Back in the '90s my wife and I volunteered with Habitat for
> > Humanity on a project in Aloha. A retired Westinghouse electrical
> > engineer (power) was the site supervisor, and an electrician who was a
> > member of the sponsoring church consulted. After a little instruction on
> > things I had never done (heavy cable and the use of the grease on the
> > connection fittings) we wired 10 houses from the meter base on the side
> > of the house in. The engineer and I designed the wiring so that there
> > were two different 20 amp circuits in each of the four bedrooms. (Not
> > that there were just the two outlets in that room were the only outlets
> > on one circuit. The same two circuits served two rooms.) This was done
> > because the typical family had six or more members, (Mom, Dad, and four
> > kids) and one bathroom. So there could be up to four or five hair driers
> > running in the morning. Anyway, Habitat had an electrical contractor
> > wire another one of the houses. The electricians didn't follow our plan,
> > but did their typical run. That put too many outlets on one circuit for
> > the need. It was to code, but not what was needed. So, yes. A good idea
> > to make sure the wiring meets 

Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Chuck Hast]

Exactly, most of my electrical work has been industrial, one receptacle per
breaker type work. When I went in to redo the home in Tampa, I found as
many as 6 receptacles per breaker, needless to say I fixed that because of
the same issue, wife can always find the receptacle that has a big load on
it and plug something else in and toss the breaker. So when I rewired it I
put
one receptacle/breaker. 12Ga wire and 20 amp service to all of them, used
industrial grade receptacles (20amp) so had no issues with her doing her
thing on ONE but each had its own breaker. The lighting I put on a separate
panel as I was planning on that being the first part to go solar. I had
moved
to all CFL and was starting to move to LED. I had the power consumption
for lighting down to 400 watts with both all inside and outside (had some
150W
CFLs) normal operations, I would see between 25 and 50W of pull with a
normal set of lights on in the home at any given time. Most of the time it
was
at or below the 25W level.

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 8:15 AM, Dick Steffens  wrote:

> On 04/06/2017 07:56 AM, Chuck Hast wrote:
> > Yea, I keep on forgetting that for a lot of things out here you need a
> > permit. The
> > one thing I miss about FL. I replaced all of the wiring in one house had
> a
> > good
> > electrician friend come over took a look at it said it was ABOVE spec and
> > gave
> > it his blessing. I understand when it is a commercial job or something
> like
> > a res-
> > idential rewire ( I was getting my place ready to add solar panels and
> > separate
> > the low power consumption parts from the high power consumers) but even
> > then to demand a permit for everything is just way beyond what I see as
> > good.
> >
> > Bureaucracy run wild.
>
> There's a good side to the permit/inspection bureaucracy, as well as the
> annoying side. It's an insurance plus to have had a permit/inspection if
> something goes wrong down the road. On the other hand, I know that some
> things that are "to code" aren't as good as what I want. And while what
> I want isn't against the code, it's also not what a typical electrician
> would do. Back in the '90s my wife and I volunteered with Habitat for
> Humanity on a project in Aloha. A retired Westinghouse electrical
> engineer (power) was the site supervisor, and an electrician who was a
> member of the sponsoring church consulted. After a little instruction on
> things I had never done (heavy cable and the use of the grease on the
> connection fittings) we wired 10 houses from the meter base on the side
> of the house in. The engineer and I designed the wiring so that there
> were two different 20 amp circuits in each of the four bedrooms. (Not
> that there were just the two outlets in that room were the only outlets
> on one circuit. The same two circuits served two rooms.) This was done
> because the typical family had six or more members, (Mom, Dad, and four
> kids) and one bathroom. So there could be up to four or five hair driers
> running in the morning. Anyway, Habitat had an electrical contractor
> wire another one of the houses. The electricians didn't follow our plan,
> but did their typical run. That put too many outlets on one circuit for
> the need. It was to code, but not what was needed. So, yes. A good idea
> to make sure the wiring meets code, but being able to do it yourself so
> you get what you want is a major benefit.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Dick Steffens
>
> ___
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>



-- 

Chuck Hast  -- KP4DJT --
Glass, five thousand years of history and getting better.
The only container material that the USDA gives blanket approval on.
___
PLUG mailing list
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Dick Steffens]

On 04/06/2017 07:56 AM, Chuck Hast wrote:
> Yea, I keep on forgetting that for a lot of things out here you need a
> permit. The
> one thing I miss about FL. I replaced all of the wiring in one house had a
> good
> electrician friend come over took a look at it said it was ABOVE spec and
> gave
> it his blessing. I understand when it is a commercial job or something like
> a res-
> idential rewire ( I was getting my place ready to add solar panels and
> separate
> the low power consumption parts from the high power consumers) but even
> then to demand a permit for everything is just way beyond what I see as
> good.
>
> Bureaucracy run wild.

There's a good side to the permit/inspection bureaucracy, as well as the 
annoying side. It's an insurance plus to have had a permit/inspection if 
something goes wrong down the road. On the other hand, I know that some 
things that are "to code" aren't as good as what I want. And while what 
I want isn't against the code, it's also not what a typical electrician 
would do. Back in the '90s my wife and I volunteered with Habitat for 
Humanity on a project in Aloha. A retired Westinghouse electrical 
engineer (power) was the site supervisor, and an electrician who was a 
member of the sponsoring church consulted. After a little instruction on 
things I had never done (heavy cable and the use of the grease on the 
connection fittings) we wired 10 houses from the meter base on the side 
of the house in. The engineer and I designed the wiring so that there 
were two different 20 amp circuits in each of the four bedrooms. (Not 
that there were just the two outlets in that room were the only outlets 
on one circuit. The same two circuits served two rooms.) This was done 
because the typical family had six or more members, (Mom, Dad, and four 
kids) and one bathroom. So there could be up to four or five hair driers 
running in the morning. Anyway, Habitat had an electrical contractor 
wire another one of the houses. The electricians didn't follow our plan, 
but did their typical run. That put too many outlets on one circuit for 
the need. It was to code, but not what was needed. So, yes. A good idea 
to make sure the wiring meets code, but being able to do it yourself so 
you get what you want is a major benefit.

-- 
Regards,

Dick Steffens

___
PLUG mailing list
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Chuck Hast]

Yea, I keep on forgetting that for a lot of things out here you need a
permit. The
one thing I miss about FL. I replaced all of the wiring in one house had a
good
electrician friend come over took a look at it said it was ABOVE spec and
gave
it his blessing. I understand when it is a commercial job or something like
a res-
idential rewire ( I was getting my place ready to add solar panels and
separate
the low power consumption parts from the high power consumers) but even
then to demand a permit for everything is just way beyond what I see as
good.

Bureaucracy run wild.

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:30 PM, John Jason Jordan  wrote:

> On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:06:21 -0700
> Chuck Hast  dijo:
>
> >I guess one thing about the parallel wiring system usually you use a
> >make after break double throw switch so you cannot put power on the
> >mains.
> >
> >The switch is designed such that it cannot make both contacts at the
> >same time. I wonder why you did not go that route?
>
> I considered the idea of a double throw switch, but rejected it because
> it would require a permit, and I doubt I could talk my way out of it.
> Moreover, it would require working with really fat wires, which I hate.
> I would probably end up hiring an electrician, and those people are not
> cheap.
> ___
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>



-- 

Chuck Hast  -- KP4DJT --
Glass, five thousand years of history and getting better.
The only container material that the USDA gives blanket approval on.
___
PLUG mailing list
PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org
http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[John Jason Jordan]

On Wed, 5 Apr 2017 16:06:21 -0700
Chuck Hast  dijo:

>I guess one thing about the parallel wiring system usually you use a
>make after break double throw switch so you cannot put power on the
>mains.
>
>The switch is designed such that it cannot make both contacts at the
>same time. I wonder why you did not go that route?

I considered the idea of a double throw switch, but rejected it because
it would require a permit, and I doubt I could talk my way out of it.
Moreover, it would require working with really fat wires, which I hate.
I would probably end up hiring an electrician, and those people are not
cheap.
___
PLUG mailing list
PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org
http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug

Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Chuck Hast]

I guess one thing about the parallel wiring system usually you use a make
after break double throw switch so you cannot put power on the mains.

The switch is designed such that it cannot make both contacts at the same
time. I wonder why you did not go that route?

Before I moved out here, I lived in FL. I was getting ready to put in a gen
set
and have backup power. Storms take out the power all of the time, lot of
ESD,
and FL lightning is pretty famous, always sacrifice at least 4 golfers in
the early
part of the rainy season to the lightning god. Indeed Tampa or someplace
near-
by (it moves around the area year by year) is considered the lightning
capital of
the country.

I was getting ready to get one of those switches and install it. Since the
install-
ation was behind the meter and meter switch box I could put it in my self
and
have a certified electrician check my work. That was it. Big thing was that
the
switch be designed to where it could not connect gen set power to the mains.
Those switches are very common. That is what I would have done and that
way not have to go around moving all of the plugs. I would have
non-essential
parts of the home on circuits that I can isolate out so I am not powering a
bunch of stuff I do not need. I was going to use a manual transfer as I
wanted
to be able to do a quick gander at things prior to doing the transfer. All
of the
important stuff was on UPS anyhow so it was not a big deal.

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Denis Heidtmann 
wrote:

> Very innovative wiring, John.  And I like the idea of a natural gas
> generator.  Much less hassle and maintenance than gasoline.  I have a small
> gasoline generator but it has not been run in a number of years.  Hard to
> justify spending the $ for a switch to natural gas.
>
> -Denis
>
> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:33 PM, John Jason Jordan  wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:47:32 -0700
> > Denis Heidtmann  dijo:
> >
> > >Both your main storage and your backup run from the same power line in
> > >the same house.  What is the likelihood lightning or some other major
> > >event could affect both at the same time?  Low, but backups are
> > >intended as insurance for low-likelihood events.  Then there is
> > >crypto-lock.  I do not know about how that works and how different
> > >backup schemes protect against it.
> >
> > First, my house has a 7500 watt natural gas powered generator on the
> > covered back patio. It is not wired to a transfer switch that
> > automatically turns it on and switches the house wiring to it in the
> > event that PGE fails to send me its usual electrons. Instead, it is
> > wired to various outlets around the house that say 'generator only on
> > the cover plate. If the power from PGE fails then I have to go out to
> > the back patio, turn on the generator, then go back inside and move
> > everything that I need to have running to a 'generator only' outlet.
> >
> > In the meantime, the computers, routers, switches, internet devices, and
> > even the stereo are all running on major APC UPS systems - three of
> > them. They will power the electronics for a couple hours, so I don't
> > need to be in a hurry to turn on the generator. And to keep the
> > electronics running after I decide that I need to turn on the
> > generator, all I need to reconnect to the 'generator only' outlets is
> > the power cords from these UPS devices, plus the refrigerator,
> > freezer, and some table lamps. I chose to wire the generator this way
> > rather than using an automatic transfer switch is because 1) automatic
> > transfer switches are expensive and, 2) automatic transfer switches
> > require a permit.
> >
> > Regarding the permit, I had a very heated debate with the City of
> > Portland, which ultimately I won. My major point was that my wiring was
> > not connected in any way to the grid, hence it was impossible for it to
> > electrocute a lineman working on a power pole out in the street. It is
> > a completely private system. It helped my argument that I did all the
> > wiring in my house myself and it all passed code inspections.
> >
> > As for lightning strikes, since all the electronics are running off the
> > UPSs, and they have pretty good surge protection, I am not overly
> > worried.
> >
> > Now, it's possible for something to happen that I have not foreseen,
> > but then, you take some risks getting out of bed in the morning. You
> > even take risks if you stay in bed. In the final analysis, we are all
> > dead. In the meantime, I am satisfied with the precautions that I have
> > taken. :)
> > ___
> > PLUG mailing list
> > PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org
> > http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
> >
> ___
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>



-- 

Chuck Hast  -- KP4DJT --
Glass, five 

Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Denis Heidtmann]

Very innovative wiring, John.  And I like the idea of a natural gas
generator.  Much less hassle and maintenance than gasoline.  I have a small
gasoline generator but it has not been run in a number of years.  Hard to
justify spending the $ for a switch to natural gas.

-Denis

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:33 PM, John Jason Jordan  wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:47:32 -0700
> Denis Heidtmann  dijo:
>
> >Both your main storage and your backup run from the same power line in
> >the same house.  What is the likelihood lightning or some other major
> >event could affect both at the same time?  Low, but backups are
> >intended as insurance for low-likelihood events.  Then there is
> >crypto-lock.  I do not know about how that works and how different
> >backup schemes protect against it.
>
> First, my house has a 7500 watt natural gas powered generator on the
> covered back patio. It is not wired to a transfer switch that
> automatically turns it on and switches the house wiring to it in the
> event that PGE fails to send me its usual electrons. Instead, it is
> wired to various outlets around the house that say 'generator only on
> the cover plate. If the power from PGE fails then I have to go out to
> the back patio, turn on the generator, then go back inside and move
> everything that I need to have running to a 'generator only' outlet.
>
> In the meantime, the computers, routers, switches, internet devices, and
> even the stereo are all running on major APC UPS systems - three of
> them. They will power the electronics for a couple hours, so I don't
> need to be in a hurry to turn on the generator. And to keep the
> electronics running after I decide that I need to turn on the
> generator, all I need to reconnect to the 'generator only' outlets is
> the power cords from these UPS devices, plus the refrigerator,
> freezer, and some table lamps. I chose to wire the generator this way
> rather than using an automatic transfer switch is because 1) automatic
> transfer switches are expensive and, 2) automatic transfer switches
> require a permit.
>
> Regarding the permit, I had a very heated debate with the City of
> Portland, which ultimately I won. My major point was that my wiring was
> not connected in any way to the grid, hence it was impossible for it to
> electrocute a lineman working on a power pole out in the street. It is
> a completely private system. It helped my argument that I did all the
> wiring in my house myself and it all passed code inspections.
>
> As for lightning strikes, since all the electronics are running off the
> UPSs, and they have pretty good surge protection, I am not overly
> worried.
>
> Now, it's possible for something to happen that I have not foreseen,
> but then, you take some risks getting out of bed in the morning. You
> even take risks if you stay in bed. In the final analysis, we are all
> dead. In the meantime, I am satisfied with the precautions that I have
> taken. :)
> ___
> PLUG mailing list
> PLUG@lists.pdxlinux.org
> http://lists.pdxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug
>
___
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[John Jason Jordan]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 18:47:32 -0700
Denis Heidtmann  dijo:

>Both your main storage and your backup run from the same power line in
>the same house.  What is the likelihood lightning or some other major
>event could affect both at the same time?  Low, but backups are
>intended as insurance for low-likelihood events.  Then there is
>crypto-lock.  I do not know about how that works and how different
>backup schemes protect against it.

First, my house has a 7500 watt natural gas powered generator on the
covered back patio. It is not wired to a transfer switch that
automatically turns it on and switches the house wiring to it in the
event that PGE fails to send me its usual electrons. Instead, it is
wired to various outlets around the house that say 'generator only on
the cover plate. If the power from PGE fails then I have to go out to
the back patio, turn on the generator, then go back inside and move
everything that I need to have running to a 'generator only' outlet.

In the meantime, the computers, routers, switches, internet devices, and
even the stereo are all running on major APC UPS systems - three of
them. They will power the electronics for a couple hours, so I don't
need to be in a hurry to turn on the generator. And to keep the
electronics running after I decide that I need to turn on the
generator, all I need to reconnect to the 'generator only' outlets is
the power cords from these UPS devices, plus the refrigerator,
freezer, and some table lamps. I chose to wire the generator this way
rather than using an automatic transfer switch is because 1) automatic
transfer switches are expensive and, 2) automatic transfer switches
require a permit.

Regarding the permit, I had a very heated debate with the City of
Portland, which ultimately I won. My major point was that my wiring was
not connected in any way to the grid, hence it was impossible for it to
electrocute a lineman working on a power pole out in the street. It is
a completely private system. It helped my argument that I did all the
wiring in my house myself and it all passed code inspections. 

As for lightning strikes, since all the electronics are running off the
UPSs, and they have pretty good surge protection, I am not overly
worried. 

Now, it's possible for something to happen that I have not foreseen,
but then, you take some risks getting out of bed in the morning. You
even take risks if you stay in bed. In the final analysis, we are all
dead. In the meantime, I am satisfied with the precautions that I have
taken. :)
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Denis Heidtmann]

John,

Both your main storage and your backup run from the same power line in the
same house.  What is the likelihood lightning or some other major event
could affect both at the same time?  Low, but backups are intended as
insurance for low-likelihood events.  Then there is crypto-lock.  I do not
know about how that works and how different backup schemes protect against
it.

I cannot say I have anything as robust as your system--I backup to a local
disk once per week, real time while I am sitting here.  Other times the
local backup disk is powered off.

-Denis

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 6:15 PM, John Jason Jordan  wrote:

> On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 16:55:00 -0700
> Tom  dijo:
>
> >I understand that you are choosing RAID0 because you need 8+8=16GB of
> >storage space instead of redundancy.
> >I would advise you against using RAID0 if you care about your data -
> >single disk failure and you loose everything.
> >JBOD will give you the same storage space at about the same performance
> >over 1Gb/s ethernet + you are only risking some of the data, depending
> >which disk fails. So, JBOD is lower risk at almost no tradeoff versus
> >not-redundant RAID0 over 1Gb/s network.
> >RAID0 is really only useful for performance reasons as locally
> >connected storage inside a workstation - it doubles the disk speed.
> >That being said, local SSD/NVME will beat 2 disk HDD RAID0 in common
> >desktop/media/engineering workloads.
>
> Hmm. Interesting thoughts.
>
> You are correct that I chose Raid 0 because I want 16TB of storage
> space. It s also true that speed is not a critical consideration to me
> for this setup, that is, the speed of the main storage on the USB is
> important, but not the speed of the main storage to the Synology
> because that is just backup. I don't care how long the backups take
> because they run at 2am every night.
>
> It is certainly true that JBOD is lower risk because you probably
> wouldn't lose both disks, but this is backup storage. The main storage
> would be unlikely to be affected at the same time as a disk failure in
> the backup storage. So if I lose the whole backup, I replace the disks,
> and make a new backup from the main storage onto the new disks -
> nothing lost. And even if one disk in the backup Raid is still good,
> I'd replace it anyway, because the disks were purchased and installed
> at the same time, so if one goes, the other is probably not far behind.
> In fact, even if neither fails, when they get to the end of their
> warranty I'd probably replace both anyway. I'd rather keep things from
> failing than have to repair stuff under emergency conditions.
>
> JBOD might be a trifle safer, but I still have the main storage and I'd
> replace both disks anyway, so this benefit seems negligible to me. Raid
> 0 is probably faster, but that is also of negligible value to me. It's
> a tossup.
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[John Jason Jordan]

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 16:55:00 -0700
Tom  dijo:

>I understand that you are choosing RAID0 because you need 8+8=16GB of
>storage space instead of redundancy.
>I would advise you against using RAID0 if you care about your data -
>single disk failure and you loose everything.
>JBOD will give you the same storage space at about the same performance
>over 1Gb/s ethernet + you are only risking some of the data, depending
>which disk fails. So, JBOD is lower risk at almost no tradeoff versus
>not-redundant RAID0 over 1Gb/s network.
>RAID0 is really only useful for performance reasons as locally
>connected storage inside a workstation - it doubles the disk speed.
>That being said, local SSD/NVME will beat 2 disk HDD RAID0 in common
>desktop/media/engineering workloads.

Hmm. Interesting thoughts.

You are correct that I chose Raid 0 because I want 16TB of storage
space. It s also true that speed is not a critical consideration to me
for this setup, that is, the speed of the main storage on the USB is
important, but not the speed of the main storage to the Synology
because that is just backup. I don't care how long the backups take
because they run at 2am every night.

It is certainly true that JBOD is lower risk because you probably
wouldn't lose both disks, but this is backup storage. The main storage
would be unlikely to be affected at the same time as a disk failure in
the backup storage. So if I lose the whole backup, I replace the disks,
and make a new backup from the main storage onto the new disks -
nothing lost. And even if one disk in the backup Raid is still good,
I'd replace it anyway, because the disks were purchased and installed
at the same time, so if one goes, the other is probably not far behind.
In fact, even if neither fails, when they get to the end of their
warranty I'd probably replace both anyway. I'd rather keep things from
failing than have to repair stuff under emergency conditions.

JBOD might be a trifle safer, but I still have the main storage and I'd
replace both disks anyway, so this benefit seems negligible to me. Raid
0 is probably faster, but that is also of negligible value to me. It's
a tossup. 
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Tom]

I understand that you are choosing RAID0 because you need 8+8=16GB of
storage space instead of redundancy.
I would advise you against using RAID0 if you care about your data -
single disk failure and you loose everything.
JBOD will give you the same storage space at about the same performance
over 1Gb/s ethernet + you are only risking some of the data, depending
which disk fails. So, JBOD is lower risk at almost no tradeoff versus
not-redundant RAID0 over 1Gb/s network.
RAID0 is really only useful for performance reasons as locally
connected storage inside a workstation - it doubles the disk speed.
That being said, local SSD/NVME will beat 2 disk HDD RAID0 in common
desktop/media/engineering workloads.
Tomas
On Tue, 2017-04-04 at 15:19 -0700, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:25:26 -0700
> John Jason Jordan  dijo:
> 
> > On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:04:30 -0700
> > Galen Seitz  dijo:
> > 
> > > On 04/03/17 10:40, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> > > > I am looking for a 2-bay USB enclosure, at least USB 3.0, with
> > > > internal software capable of Raid 0. I have been looking at the
> > > > ICY
> > > > DOCK MB662U3-2S:
> 
> The shopping is done. I ordered two WD 8TB Red Pro drives (5 year
> warranty) and the Mediasonic ProRaid HUR3-SU3S3 2 Bay 3.5" SATA Hard
> Drive Enclosure - USB 3.0 & eSATA Support UASP and SATA III 6.0Gbps
> Speed:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KCEAXJW/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza
> 
> The drives are coming from an eBay seller with two-day shipping. The
> Mediasonic is coming from Mediasonic Inc, fulfilled by Amazon,
> expected
> by April 10.
> 
> When it all gets here I will make a final backup of the current old
> and
> end of life 5TB USB drive to the Synology, then pull the 6TB WD Red
> Pro
> drive out of the Synology and set it aside. Then I will install the
> new
> 8TB drives in the Synology and set them up as Raid 0, and make sure
> the
> computer can mount the Synology the same as it now does. And then I
> will
> back up the old 5TB USB drive to the Synology again, now backing up
> to
> the new drives with 16TB of space.
> 
> And finally, I will put the 6TB drive from the Synology into the new
> Mediasonic USB enclosure and plug it into the computer, unplugging
> the
> old 5TB drive to retire it for good. And then I will have some tricky
> stuff to make sure all the programs and the operating system can find
> and use the 6TB in the Mediasonic the same as they used to see and
> use
> the old 5TB drive. 
> 
> I hope my plan works. :)
> 
> Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions. :)
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[John Jason Jordan]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 15:25:26 -0700
John Jason Jordan  dijo:

>On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:04:30 -0700
>Galen Seitz  dijo:
>
>>On 04/03/17 10:40, John Jason Jordan wrote:
>>> I am looking for a 2-bay USB enclosure, at least USB 3.0, with
>>> internal software capable of Raid 0. I have been looking at the ICY
>>> DOCK MB662U3-2S:

The shopping is done. I ordered two WD 8TB Red Pro drives (5 year
warranty) and the Mediasonic ProRaid HUR3-SU3S3 2 Bay 3.5" SATA Hard
Drive Enclosure - USB 3.0 & eSATA Support UASP and SATA III 6.0Gbps
Speed:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00KCEAXJW/ref=ask_ql_qh_dp_hza

The drives are coming from an eBay seller with two-day shipping. The
Mediasonic is coming from Mediasonic Inc, fulfilled by Amazon, expected
by April 10.

When it all gets here I will make a final backup of the current old and
end of life 5TB USB drive to the Synology, then pull the 6TB WD Red Pro
drive out of the Synology and set it aside. Then I will install the new
8TB drives in the Synology and set them up as Raid 0, and make sure the
computer can mount the Synology the same as it now does. And then I will
back up the old 5TB USB drive to the Synology again, now backing up to
the new drives with 16TB of space.

And finally, I will put the 6TB drive from the Synology into the new
Mediasonic USB enclosure and plug it into the computer, unplugging the
old 5TB drive to retire it for good. And then I will have some tricky
stuff to make sure all the programs and the operating system can find
and use the 6TB in the Mediasonic the same as they used to see and use
the old 5TB drive. 

I hope my plan works. :)

Thanks to all for the advice and suggestions. :)
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[John Jason Jordan]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 11:04:30 -0700
Galen Seitz  dijo:

>On 04/03/17 10:40, John Jason Jordan wrote:
>> I am looking for a 2-bay USB enclosure, at least USB 3.0, with
>> internal software capable of Raid 0. I have been looking at the ICY
>> DOCK MB662U3-2S:

>I would be leery of any USB RAID setup unless I knew with absolute
>certainty that the RAID format/metadata was well documented and
>portable.  In other words, you need to be very certain that it is
>possible to remove the RAID disks from the enclosure and recover the
>data.  If the RAID format is proprietary, you would be in trouble if
>the enclosure dies or the company goes belly up.

I have been shopping all day for USB 3.0 enclosures, and the results
are not encouraging. At this time my plan is to buy a 2-bay enclosure
but use it for now with just the 6TB WD Red Pro drive currently in the
Synology. I only want it to be 2-bay for future expansion.

Once the 6TB drive is out of the Synology the enclosure will be empty. I
will then add a new WD Red Pro 8TB drive to it. The Synology is a DS216j
2-bay NAS enclosure, so some day I will add a second drive to it,
probably another 8TB Red Pro. And for both the USB and the Synology,
once they have a second drive I will use just Raid 0. The USB is backed
up to the Synology nightly with rsync to make it a mirror of the USB,
hence I don't need a Raid that creates redundancy - no need for hot
swapping a failed drive. 

My shopping problem is that there are not a lot of 2-bay USB enclosures
with built in Raid on the market. And every one that I can find has
numerous horrible reviews, almost all of which are due to mechanical
failure, i.e., poor quality control by the manufacturer, not software
problems with the Raid. I realize that there are numerous people here
who administer big server setups and when I say "Raid" they immediately
assume that I want hot swapping redundancy, but I don't see the need
for that.
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Re: [PLUG] USB enclosures

[Galen Seitz]

On 04/03/17 10:40, John Jason Jordan wrote:
> I am looking for a 2-bay USB enclosure, at least USB 3.0, with internal
> software capable of Raid 0. I have been looking at the ICY DOCK MB662U3-2S:

I would be leery of any USB RAID setup unless I knew with absolute
certainty that the RAID format/metadata was well documented and
portable.  In other words, you need to be very certain that it is
possible to remove the RAID disks from the enclosure and recover the
data.  If the RAID format is proprietary, you would be in trouble if the
enclosure dies or the company goes belly up.

galen
-- 
Galen Seitz
gal...@seitzassoc.com
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[PLUG] USB enclosures

[John Jason Jordan]

I am looking for a 2-bay USB enclosure, at least USB 3.0, with internal
software capable of Raid 0. I have been looking at the ICY DOCK MB662U3-2S:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817198063

The MB662U3-2S can use drives up to 8TB, however Western Digital now
offers 10TB drives (Gold only). I don't know if there are any USB
enclosures currently available that will recognize 10TB drives, but
maybe I shouldn't worry about that for now. 

Does anyone have experience with USB enclosures? Any recommendations?
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