Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
At 07:17 AM 10/22/01 -0500, Robison Michael R CNIN wrote: >thats an interesting idea of using a transparency. the only >problem i'd have with that is moving around and doing different >parts of the board... i find myself zooming in even on a 6x6 >board until it doesn't all fit on the screen. Yes, that's why importing a scan to a mechanical layer is much better. Yes, you may have to do some scaling, but you do it once, and then you can trace over the lines. resumably a scan of a PCB is going to need quite a bit of cleanup unless it is imported through a *very* sophisticated program, one that would know about design rules, for example. >from everyone's post, it sounds like a fairly expensive process >with a pretty trashy board if the proper cleanup isn't done. Importing from scans of pcbs is not cheap. Perhaps one to two-thirds the cost of doing the design from scratch. But it need not be terribly trashy, if the gerber-from-scan program is sophisticated and the board is not fine-line. I'd be interested to know more about it. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
thanks clive, thats an interesting idea of using a transparency. the only problem i'd have with that is moving around and doing different parts of the board... i find myself zooming in even on a 6x6 board until it doesn't all fit on the screen. i didn't state my post very clearly... another facility here on base already has the process in operation. but we sort of operate independent of each other so management here is wanting me to oversee the workload we transfer to them and be aware of any potential problems. from everyone's post, it sounds like a fairly expensive process with a pretty trashy board if the proper cleanup isn't done. thanks, miker > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 5:49 PM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? > > > > You could always photocopy the board onto overhead transparency film, then > stickytape it to your monitor and set Protel to the correct zoom level and > run > the tracks by tracing over the film. Its a serious suggestion, I have done > logos > like this and it works well. > > > > > ___ > > Clive Broome > IDT Sydney Design CentrePh: +61 2 9763 3513 > 8 Bayswater Dr, HomebushFax: +61 2 9763 3409 > Sydney, NSW, 2127 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Australia > > ___ > > > > > > > > > > > "Robison Michael R CNIN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 10/18/2001 11:33:17 > PM > > Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc) > > Subject: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? > > > > hello, > > i guess our customer on this board rebuild job is happy with us > and has given us a bunch more boards to do. over half of them > are simple two-sided boards. with no existing gerbers, up til > now i've been recreating these in protel with a stripped board and > a set of calipers. > > this issue has been sitting on the backburner for me a while, but > bob wolfe mentioned something close to it and now my interest > is piqued. there is another facility here on base that can take an > existing board that's stripped and somehow scan or photograph > the surface and generate gerbers from that. they want me to go > over and check it out and give them an idea of whether this is a > good idea and what kind of problems might be involved with this > process. > > my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm > going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic > hardware thats associated with some software program that > converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you > guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ > hardware setups employed for this? surely its better than me sitting > here re-creating the boards by hand. > > any comments will be appreciated. > > thanks, miker > > > > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
hello, this has been enlightening. i really appreciate everyone's post here. let me repeat that i'm not the one who's actually supposed to perform this operation. another facility here on base already does it. but it is my job to make sure that we get good work out of them for our boards, and have my eyes open to the pitfalls. it appears to me from all your posts that if you rely upon a totally automated process, the results are going to be questionable. and if you just snap a picture of it and lay traces over the top of it using some- thing like protel, you gain some but not a lot. so when i go over to talk to this other facility, i'll be looking at how much of the process is automated and how much they do by hand, and i'll be looking with a critical eye at the quality of the end result. thanks, miker > -Original Message- > From: Ralf Gütlein [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 11:01 AM > To: Protel EDA Forum > Subject: Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? > > Hi Michael, > > some kind of semi-automatic procedure for rebuilding legacy > hardware would be a nice option. Here's what you need to do: > > 1. Take a picture of your board using a flatbed scanner. > 2. Chance the color of the board plane to white and of the >traces to black; save as BMP file. > 3. Use one of those converters mentioned in the >"BMP-to-gerber" threads. > > This was the good news. Now back to the real life. > > I think the problems getting this into operation are so big > that (almost?) noone takes this procedure into consideration: > > 1. Depending on the board pattern it is hard or even impossible >to get a sharp, high-contrast image. > 2. You will have a hard work post-processing your picture to >a black/white bitmap. > 3. Dimensions (and maybe the aspect ratio) gets lost when saving >it as a bitmap file (it depends on the bitmap resolution). >Rescaling it back to the original outline may drive you nuts > 4. With big, detailled bitmaps you will spend a hard time in >converting them to gerber or pdb data. The conversion will >bring myriads of tiny tracks and artefacts into the pcb, >which you have to remove/redraw in post-processing. > 5. Double-sided boards are a crap if you want both sides to match. > 5. No matter what you do, you will not get a re-editable artwork >file, which you can cross-check with a schematic. > > Maybe with small, crude, single-sided boards and with some > effort you will have some success, but those boards are > easily to be redrawn in the "old-fashioned" way anyhow ;-) > > I will not say that it is impossible to get useful results > from such kind of reengineering. But you will need highly > sophisticated tools to hit the jackpot. I disbelieve you > will find them. > > Regards, Ralf > > > > >. >ô ô ) > -oOOo--(_)---oOOo-- > > Ralf Guetlein > Biotest Medizintechnik GmbH > Industriestrasse 19 > D-63755 Alzenau > Germany > --- > Tel. +49 6023 9487-42 > Fax. +49 6023 9487-33 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > --- > > - Original Message - > From: "Robison Michael R CNIN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:33 PM > Subject: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? > > > > hello, > > > > i guess our customer on this board rebuild job is happy with us > > and has given us a bunch more boards to do. over half of them > > are simple two-sided boards. with no existing gerbers, up til > > now i've been recreating these in protel with a stripped board and > > a set of calipers. > > > > this issue has been sitting on the backburner for me a while, but > > bob wolfe mentioned something close to it and now my interest > > is piqued. there is another facility here on base that can take an > > existing board that's stripped and somehow scan or photograph > > the surface and generate gerbers from that. they want me to go > > over and check it out and give them an idea of whether this is a > > good idea and what kind of problems might be involved with this > > process. > > > > my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm > > going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic > > hardware thats associated with some software program that > > converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you > > guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ > > hardware setups employed for this? surely its bette
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
You could always photocopy the board onto overhead transparency film, then stickytape it to your monitor and set Protel to the correct zoom level and run the tracks by tracing over the film. Its a serious suggestion, I have done logos like this and it works well. ___ Clive Broome IDT Sydney Design CentrePh: +61 2 9763 3513 8 Bayswater Dr, HomebushFax: +61 2 9763 3409 Sydney, NSW, 2127 Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Australia ___ "Robison Michael R CNIN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 10/18/2001 11:33:17 PM Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc) Subject: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? hello, i guess our customer on this board rebuild job is happy with us and has given us a bunch more boards to do. over half of them are simple two-sided boards. with no existing gerbers, up til now i've been recreating these in protel with a stripped board and a set of calipers. this issue has been sitting on the backburner for me a while, but bob wolfe mentioned something close to it and now my interest is piqued. there is another facility here on base that can take an existing board that's stripped and somehow scan or photograph the surface and generate gerbers from that. they want me to go over and check it out and give them an idea of whether this is a good idea and what kind of problems might be involved with this process. my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic hardware thats associated with some software program that converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ hardware setups employed for this? surely its better than me sitting here re-creating the boards by hand. any comments will be appreciated. thanks, miker * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
At 08:33 AM 10/18/01 -0500, Robison Michael R CNIN wrote: >my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm >going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic >hardware thats associated with some software program that >converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you >guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ >hardware setups employed for this? surely its better than me sitting >here re-creating the boards by hand. I did a board by photographing the board, scaling and filtering the photo appropriately with Paint Shop Pro, and using a bitmap converter (there is one in the filespace for [EMAIL PROTECTED]) to bring the images into PCB, on mech layers. It was quite dirty, but I just used it as a template to place the traces. However, software to convert bitmaps into gerber has been around for a long time. My guess is that the software analyzes the image and produces gerber draws and flashes to imitate reasonably closely the original. It will be great if it does this. If, instead, it creates a raster image with gerber draws, you would be able to use it as I used my photo, only the dimensional accuracy would be pretty easy to maintain. Assuming that it outputs real draws for traces, you will import the Gerber to a working layer. You may need to clean it up, you might edit traces to be the same size that might be slightly different in the conversion. If pads have been built with draws, it will be a nuisance, because you will need to get rid of them. In fact, it might be simpler to just use the scanned data as I used a camera image. You will identify common footprints from the layers; you may use your library for that; but for unusual footprints you will create pads from the gerber data if it contains flashes. You might or might not adjust their position; if a pad already exists, you will probably edit it to multilayer and put a hole into it, as well as giving it a number. Before doing this, select and copy a footprint's set of pads into the footprint editor. Once you have made the footprint, place the footprint over the pads you selected and clear the selection. This way you work through the board assigning components as appropriate and then deleting the free pads from your import. Eventually you will be left with only footprints and connecting track. This track may need to be adjusted, but redrawing it with loop removal turned on may be faster. I recommend keeping the image on a mech layer so that you can, at the end, use a blink technique, or contrasting colors with alternating the layer drawn on top (or transparent colors so that non-coincidence will produce contrasting colors, like white for coincidence and two contrasting colors for primitives that exist on one layer and not on another), to compare your final layers with the input layers from the scanner. You will probably also need to massage the gerber into a form that Protel will properly input. This has been discussed many times and recently, so I'm not going into that now. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Abdulrahman Lomax Easthampton, Massachusetts USA * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
This is also how we do it... I bring in the gerber from their scans and put it on mechanical layers in the Protel database. The I place the components on top of the image and move the traces from the mechanical layers to the trace layers. - Bill Brooks -Original Message- From: Dennis Saputelli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 11:20 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? i have heard of this working, if i were doing it i think i would re-draw the thing in protel on top of the imported gerber don't forget you're going to need a good drill file too! good luck and keep us posted Dennis Saputelli Robison Michael R CNIN wrote: > > hello, > > i guess our customer on this board rebuild job is happy with us > and has given us a bunch more boards to do. over half of them > are simple two-sided boards. with no existing gerbers, up til > now i've been recreating these in protel with a stripped board and > a set of calipers. > > this issue has been sitting on the backburner for me a while, but > bob wolfe mentioned something close to it and now my interest > is piqued. there is another facility here on base that can take an > existing board that's stripped and somehow scan or photograph > the surface and generate gerbers from that. they want me to go > over and check it out and give them an idea of whether this is a > good idea and what kind of problems might be involved with this > process. > > my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm > going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic > hardware thats associated with some software program that > converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you > guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ > hardware setups employed for this? surely its better than me sitting > here re-creating the boards by hand. > > any comments will be appreciated. > > thanks, miker -- ___ www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc. tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
i have heard of this working, if i were doing it i think i would re-draw the thing in protel on top of the imported gerber don't forget you're going to need a good drill file too! good luck and keep us posted Dennis Saputelli Robison Michael R CNIN wrote: > > hello, > > i guess our customer on this board rebuild job is happy with us > and has given us a bunch more boards to do. over half of them > are simple two-sided boards. with no existing gerbers, up til > now i've been recreating these in protel with a stripped board and > a set of calipers. > > this issue has been sitting on the backburner for me a while, but > bob wolfe mentioned something close to it and now my interest > is piqued. there is another facility here on base that can take an > existing board that's stripped and somehow scan or photograph > the surface and generate gerbers from that. they want me to go > over and check it out and give them an idea of whether this is a > good idea and what kind of problems might be involved with this > process. > > my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm > going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic > hardware thats associated with some software program that > converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you > guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ > hardware setups employed for this? surely its better than me sitting > here re-creating the boards by hand. > > any comments will be appreciated. > > thanks, miker -- ___ www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc. tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
Hi Michael, some kind of semi-automatic procedure for rebuilding legacy hardware would be a nice option. Here's what you need to do: 1. Take a picture of your board using a flatbed scanner. 2. Chance the color of the board plane to white and of the traces to black; save as BMP file. 3. Use one of those converters mentioned in the "BMP-to-gerber" threads. This was the good news. Now back to the real life. I think the problems getting this into operation are so big that (almost?) noone takes this procedure into consideration: 1. Depending on the board pattern it is hard or even impossible to get a sharp, high-contrast image. 2. You will have a hard work post-processing your picture to a black/white bitmap. 3. Dimensions (and maybe the aspect ratio) gets lost when saving it as a bitmap file (it depends on the bitmap resolution). Rescaling it back to the original outline may drive you nuts 4. With big, detailled bitmaps you will spend a hard time in converting them to gerber or pdb data. The conversion will bring myriads of tiny tracks and artefacts into the pcb, which you have to remove/redraw in post-processing. 5. Double-sided boards are a crap if you want both sides to match. 5. No matter what you do, you will not get a re-editable artwork file, which you can cross-check with a schematic. Maybe with small, crude, single-sided boards and with some effort you will have some success, but those boards are easily to be redrawn in the "old-fashioned" way anyhow ;-) I will not say that it is impossible to get useful results from such kind of reengineering. But you will need highly sophisticated tools to hit the jackpot. I disbelieve you will find them. Regards, Ralf . ô ô ) -oOOo--(_)---oOOo-- Ralf Guetlein Biotest Medizintechnik GmbH Industriestrasse 19 D-63755 Alzenau Germany --- Tel. +49 6023 9487-42 Fax. +49 6023 9487-33 [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- - Original Message - From: "Robison Michael R CNIN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 3:33 PM Subject: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? > hello, > > i guess our customer on this board rebuild job is happy with us > and has given us a bunch more boards to do. over half of them > are simple two-sided boards. with no existing gerbers, up til > now i've been recreating these in protel with a stripped board and > a set of calipers. > > this issue has been sitting on the backburner for me a while, but > bob wolfe mentioned something close to it and now my interest > is piqued. there is another facility here on base that can take an > existing board that's stripped and somehow scan or photograph > the surface and generate gerbers from that. they want me to go > over and check it out and give them an idea of whether this is a > good idea and what kind of problems might be involved with this > process. > > my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm > going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic > hardware thats associated with some software program that > converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you > guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ > hardware setups employed for this? surely its better than me sitting > here re-creating the boards by hand. > > any comments will be appreciated. > > thanks, miker > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ??
Hi Mike, Actually we have a large number of old 'hand taped' artworks here and use an outside service bureau to convert them into gerbers. There is a company here in San Diego, CadArt Services, that has the facilities and the expertise to do this sort of artwork restoration very well for about 40 dollars a sheet. There is always cleanup for them to do to the scans as there will be areas on the artwork (or PCB) that reflect into the camera and cause aberrant 'flotsam' or specs and lines that are undesirable. They can convert their gerbers into AutoCAD or some other format too. I even heard of a guy that was milling off the layers of a board, one at a time, and photographing the circuits to recreate lost artwork. I guess it is done, but sounds like a lot of work! - Bill Brooks Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D. DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS, INC 3030 Enterprise Court Vista, CA 92083 Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] IPC Designers Council, San Diego Chapter http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/ http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm -Original Message- From: Robison Michael R CNIN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 6:33 AM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [PEDA] gerbers from a scan ?? hello, i guess our customer on this board rebuild job is happy with us and has given us a bunch more boards to do. over half of them are simple two-sided boards. with no existing gerbers, up til now i've been recreating these in protel with a stripped board and a set of calipers. this issue has been sitting on the backburner for me a while, but bob wolfe mentioned something close to it and now my interest is piqued. there is another facility here on base that can take an existing board that's stripped and somehow scan or photograph the surface and generate gerbers from that. they want me to go over and check it out and give them an idea of whether this is a good idea and what kind of problems might be involved with this process. my question: what am i likely to find when i go over there? i'm going to assume that there is some scanning or photographic hardware thats associated with some software program that converts a raster image into the vectorized gerber files. are you guys familiar with this kind of setup? what are some of the software/ hardware setups employed for this? surely its better than me sitting here re-creating the boards by hand. any comments will be appreciated. thanks, miker * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
