On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> I think being frozen in the late 1990s is better than being frozen in the
> early 1980s, like Command Prompt is. In fact, I think we should 'deprecate'
> the Command Prompt interpreter as the standard interactive interpreter and
> finish polish
On 3/20/2013 11:54 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Terry Reedy
Ugly is subjective: by what standard and compared to what?
Compared to other existing Python IDEs and shells which are layered on
top of modern GUI toolkits that are actively developed to keep with
mo
Am 21.03.2013 00:47, schrieb Barry Warsaw:
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:05:40 -0700
>>Nick Coghlan wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, the status quo of Idle is not something we should allow to
>>> continue indefinitely, but decisions about its future developm
On 3/20/2013 8:38 PM, Neil Hodgson wrote:
Terry Reedy:
Broken (and quirky): it has an absurdly limited output buffer
(under a thousand lines)
The limit is actually lines.
I clicked Start / All programs / Python 3.3 / Python (command line)
>>> help(str)
(several times)
and scrolled bac
I hope I'm not coming across as pedantic, because I think you have some
good arguments listed above, but shouldn't discussion like this go in
python-ideas rather than python-dev? I'm very new to these lists, so
forgive me if I'm stepping on any toes, I'm just trying to grok what kind
of content sho
On 3/20/2013 2:13 PM, R. David Murray wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:23:43 -0700, Eli Bendersky wrote:
A mention in Misc/NEWS can't hurt here, Terry. Even though it's
undocumented, some old code could rely on it being there and this code will
break with the transition to 3.4
Will do.
Note th
On 3/20/2013 5:15 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
Broken (and quirky): it has an absurdly limited output buffer (under a
thousand lines)
People keep claiming that Windows CMD has a limited output buffer. It is
configurable, at least to lines, which is where I have mine set.
That is far too much t
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013, at 09:17 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 3/20/2013 6:48 PM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:
>
> Well, one can hardly use Command Prompt captures, unless one were to
> flip black and white within the window (but not its frame).
And yet many books do - it's really ugly. When I see a book
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 8:32 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 3/20/2013 12:41 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
>
> Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than
>> one. It's badly maintained, quirky and ugly.
>>
>
> Ugly is subjective: by what standard and compared to what?
>
>
Com
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Raymond Hettinger <
raymond.hettin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> Right. Ultimately, I think IDLE should be a separate project entirely,
> but I
> guess there's push back against that too.
>
>
> The most important
On 3/20/2013 12:41 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than
one. It's badly maintained, quirky and ugly.
Ugly is subjective: by what standard and compared to what?
I suggested in my previous response why I think 'badly maintained' is
u
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 7:57 PM, Raymond Hettinger <
raymond.hettin...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> Right. Ultimately, I think IDLE should be a separate project entirely,
> but I
> guess there's push back against that too.
>
>
> The most important f
On 21/03/13 11:15, Terry Reedy wrote:
getting back to CP versus IDLE...
From IDLE:
print('\x80')
print('\xc8')
È
Impressed? You should be. Open Start menu / Python33 / Python (command line)
and both of those result (modulo the specific character) in
UnicodeEncodeError: 'charmap' cod
On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:38 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Right. Ultimately, I think IDLE should be a separate project entirely, but I
> guess there's push back against that too.
The most important feature of IDLE is that it ships with the standard library.
Everyone who clicks on the Windows MSI on
On 3/20/2013 8:15 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
I will discuss repository separation in another response
Here is a radical idea I have been toying with: set up a 'common'
repository to 'factor out' files that are, could be, or should be the
same across versions. The 'common' files would be declared
Eli Bendersky gmail.com> writes:
> Oh, and another thing. If a Windows user wants a good Python shell,
> IDLE should be his last choice. There's Spyder, there's IPython,
> there's probably a bunch of others I'm not aware of.This is for IDLE
> as a shell. The same can be said for IDLE as an editor
Terry Reedy:
> Broken (and quirky): it has an absurdly limited output buffer (under a
> thousand lines)
The limit is actually lines.
> Quirky: Windows uses cntl-C to copy selected text to the clipboard and (where
> appropriate) cntl-V to insert clipboard text at the cursor pretty much
On 3/20/2013 6:48 PM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:
It seems to me that we are seeing increasing use of IDLE for beginner
training. I've seen several recent Python books that use IDLE as their
programming environment, and which include IDLE screen captures in the
text.
Well, one can hardly use Command
On 3/20/2013 3:59 PM, Brian Curtin wrote:
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:
That would be a blow to educators, but also Windows users: while the CLI
works very nicely in unices, that's not the case with the win32 console
which is as best as I can describe it a complete turd,
On 3/20/2013 2:22 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:09 AM, R. David Murray mailto:rdmur...@bitdance.com>> wrote:
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:41:53 -0700, Eli Bendersky mailto:eli...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than
one.
On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:11 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:05:40 -0700
>Nick Coghlan wrote:
>>
>> Yes, the status quo of Idle is not something we should allow to
>> continue indefinitely, but decisions about its future development
>> should be made by active maintainers that are
I apologize for that formatting mess - the Barracuda rejected my
original email for some reason (squirrelmail directly from shore.net)
and I had to resend it from rejects - it got re-wrapped on transmission.
--
KBK
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[Barry]
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
>>IDLE would be a great first foray into this "separate project" world,
because it is many ways a separate project.
> I really think that's true. A separate project, occasionally sync'd
back
> into
> the stdlib by a core dev seems like t
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:05:40 -0700
Nick Coghlan wrote:
>
> Yes, the status quo of Idle is not something we should allow to
> continue indefinitely, but decisions about its future development
> should be made by active maintainers that are already trusted to make
> changes to it (such as Terry and
On 19/03/2013 08:03, Serhiy Storchaka wrote:
On 18.03.13 22:26, Jeff Allen wrote:
The puzzle is that it requires t.read() to succeed.
When I insert a check for bytes type in all the places it seems
necessary in my code, I pass the first two conditions, but since
t.read() also raises TypeError,
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>>I didn't hear any at the sprint here.
>
> JFDI! :)
Please don't rush this. We have Roger Serwy being given commit
privileges specifically to work on Idle, Terry's PEP proposing to mak
On Mar 20, 2013, at 01:18 PM, Matthias Klose wrote:
>The patch in the issue now makes a distinction between EXT_SUFFIX and
>SHLIB_SUFFIX, and restores the value of SO to SHLIB_SUFFIX. Now this could
>break users of sysconfig.get_config_var('SO'), however I don't see a better
>way than to restore
Thanks Daniel, for all the patches and improving the test coverage.
Hope you had a good time and will you enjoy contributing further.
Happy touring SF.
--
Senthil
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:24 PM, R. David Murray wrote:
> Thank you for your contributions, and we look forward to anything else
>
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:
>
> On 2013-03-20, at 21:14 , Eli Bendersky wrote:
>
> >>> Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should
> at
> >
> best be a temporary measure until we can remove idle from the source
> tarball (maybe at the 3.
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:
> On 2013-03-20, at 20:38 , Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> > On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> >
> >> Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should at
> >> best be a temporary measure until we can remove id
On 2013-03-20, at 21:14 , Eli Bendersky wrote:
>>> Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should at
>
best be a temporary measure until we can remove idle from the source
tarball (maybe at the 3.4 release, otherwise at 3.5).
>>>
>>> Right. Ultimately, I think
On 2013-03-20, at 20:59 , Brian Curtin wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:
>> That would be a blow to educators, but also Windows users: while the CLI
>> works very nicely in unices, that's not the case with the win32 console
>> which is as best as I can describe it a co
This is http://bugs.python.org/issue16754, affecting Linux systems only, and
only those which don't provide static libraries. PEP 3149 did change the SO
macro to include the ABI tag, although the SO macro is used to search for shared
system libraries too. E.g. searching for the jpeg library search
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>>I didn't hear any at the sprint here.
>
> JFDI! :)
>
> -Barry
+1 why are we still talking show me the patches
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>> Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should at
> >> best be a temporary measure until we can remove idle from the source
> >> tarball (maybe at the 3.4 release, otherwise at 3.5).
> >
> > Right. Ultimately, I think IDLE should be a separate project entirely,
> but I
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:
> That would be a blow to educators, but also Windows users: while the CLI
> works very nicely in unices, that's not the case with the win32 console
> which is as best as I can describe it a complete turd, making IDLE a
> very nice proposition t
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Xavier Morel wrote:
> On 2013-03-20, at 20:38 , Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> > On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
> >
> >> Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should at
> >> best be a temporary measure until we can remove i
On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:40 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>I didn't hear any at the sprint here.
JFDI! :)
-Barry
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On 2013-03-20, at 20:38 , Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
>> Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should at
>> best be a temporary measure until we can remove idle from the source
>> tarball (maybe at the 3.4 release, otherwi
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> 2013/3/20 Barry Warsaw :
> > On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> >
> >>IDLE would be a great first foray into this "separate project" world,
> >>because it is many ways a separate project.
> >
> > I really think that's t
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>
> >Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should at
> >best be a temporary measure until we can remove idle from the source
> >tarball (maybe at the 3.4 release,
On Mar 20, 2013, at 12:31 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote:
>Agreed that the "sync into stdlib" think should not happen, or should at
>best be a temporary measure until we can remove idle from the source
>tarball (maybe at the 3.4 release, otherwise at 3.5).
Right. Ultimately, I think IDLE should be a
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:14 PM, Benjamin Peterson wrote:
> 2013/3/20 Barry Warsaw :
> > On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> >
> >>IDLE would be a great first foray into this "separate project" world,
> >>because it is many ways a separate project.
> >
> > I really think that's t
Thank you for your contributions, and we look forward to anything else
you may choose to contribute!
--David
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David and Senthil,
I won't make it to the sprints today because my ride wants to go into
San Francisco to do touristy things. I'll be flying back to Arizona this
evening. I still have a fair amount of code that has not been submitted
to the issue tracker. I will sprint from my house tomorrow a
2013/3/20 Barry Warsaw :
> On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
>
>>IDLE would be a great first foray into this "separate project" world,
>>because it is many ways a separate project.
>
> I really think that's true. A separate project, occasionally sync'd back into
> the stdlib by a
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:09 AM, R. David Murray
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:41:53 -0700, Eli Bendersky
>> wrote:
>> > Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than
>> > one. It's badly maintaine
On Mar 20, 2013, at 11:22 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
>IDLE would be a great first foray into this "separate project" world,
>because it is many ways a separate project.
I really think that's true. A separate project, occasionally sync'd back into
the stdlib by a core dev seems like the right way t
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 11:09 AM, R. David Murray wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:41:53 -0700, Eli Bendersky
> wrote:
> > Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than
> > one. It's badly maintained, quirky and ugly. It serves a very narrow set
> of
> > uses, and does i
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:23:43 -0700, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> A mention in Misc/NEWS can't hurt here, Terry. Even though it's
> undocumented, some old code could rely on it being there and this code will
> break with the transition to 3.4
Note that we also have a list of deprecated things that were
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 09:41:53 -0700, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> Personally, I think that IDLE reflects badly on Python in more ways than
> one. It's badly maintained, quirky and ugly. It serves a very narrow set of
> uses, and does it badly.
>
> Being part of Python *distributions* and being part of c
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> Interesting writeup about PyCon 2013 young coder
> education:http://therealkatie.net/blog/2013/mar/19/pycon-2013-young-coders/
>
> Quote:
>
> "We used IDLE because it's already on Raspian's desktop. Personally, I like
> IDLE as a teaching too
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Todd Rovito wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> > Interesting writeup about PyCon 2013 young coder
> > education:
> http://therealkatie.net/blog/2013/mar/19/pycon-2013-young-coders/
> >
> > Quote:
> >
> > "We used IDLE because it's
On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 12:41 PM, Eli Bendersky wrote:
> Interesting writeup about PyCon 2013 young coder
> education:http://therealkatie.net/blog/2013/mar/19/pycon-2013-young-coders/
>
> Quote:
>
> "We used IDLE because it's already on Raspian's desktop. Personally, I like
> IDLE as a teaching to
Interesting writeup about PyCon 2013 young coder education:
http://therealkatie.net/blog/2013/mar/19/pycon-2013-young-coders/
Quote:
"We used IDLE because it's already on Raspian's desktop. Personally, I like
IDLE as a teaching tool. It's included in the standard library, it does tab
completion a
A mention in Misc/NEWS can't hurt here, Terry. Even though it's
undocumented, some old code could rely on it being there and this code will
break with the transition to 3.4
Eli
On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 4:44 PM, terry.reedy wrote:
> http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/612d8bbcfa3a
> changeset: 828
On 19 Mar 2013, at 23:09, "Gregory P. Smith" wrote:
>
> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 9:44 PM, Michael Foord
> wrote:
>>
>> On 19 Mar 2013, at 17:26, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 01:22:58 +0100 (CET)
>> > michael.foord wrote:
>> >> http://hg.python.org/cpython/rev/684b756
On 20 Mar 2013, at 01:03, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:50:27 -0700
> Michael Foord wrote:
>>
>> If you want to add support for additional functionality feel free to propose
>> a patch.
>
> This isn't about additional functionality, this is about
> correctness. You don't wa
On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 00:50:27 -0700
Michael Foord wrote:
>
> If you want to add support for additional functionality feel free to propose
> a patch.
This isn't about additional functionality, this is about
correctness. You don't want to write multiple, slightly different,
implementations of read
On 20 Mar 2013, at 00:09, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:44:15 -0700
> Michael Foord wrote:
>>
>> mock_open makes it easy to put a StringIO in place if that's what you want.
>> It's just a simple helper function for providing some known data *along with
>> the Mock api* to mak
On Tue, 19 Mar 2013 21:44:15 -0700
Michael Foord wrote:
>
> mock_open makes it easy to put a StringIO in place if that's what you want.
> It's just a simple helper function for providing some known data *along with
> the Mock api* to make asserts that it was used correctly. It isn't presenting
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