Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 2:31 PM Steve Dower wrote: > On 2/26/2019 1:20 PM, Gregory P. Smith wrote: > > For an OS distro provided interpreter, being able to restrict its use to > > only OS distro provided software would be ideal (so ideal that people > > who haven't learned the hard distro

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 2:28 PM Victor Stinner wrote: > Le mar. 26 févr. 2019 à 22:24, Gregory P. Smith a écrit > : > > A feature that I find missing from posix-y OSes that support #! lines is > an ability to restrict what can use a given interpreter. > > Fedora runs system tools (like

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 3:25 PM Barry Warsaw wrote: > > Who gets to decide on PEP 394 changes? > > Honestly, I think it’s the active distro maintainers who need to make this > decision. They have the pulse of their own communities and users, and can > make the best decisions and compromises for

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Feb 26, 2019, at 13:34, Petr Viktorin wrote: > I have two very different questions in mind for moving this forward. > > Who gets to decide on PEP 394 changes? Honestly, I think it’s the active distro maintainers who need to make this decision. They have the pulse of their own communities

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 9:58 AM Barry Warsaw wrote: > I see this question as having several parts, and the conflation of them is > part of the reason why the unversioned `python` command is so problematic. > Python is used for: > > * OS functionality > * to run applications that aren’t critical

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/26/2019 1:20 PM, Gregory P. Smith wrote: For an OS distro provided interpreter, being able to restrict its use to only OS distro provided software would be ideal (so ideal that people who haven't learned the hard distro maintenance lessons may hate me for it). Such a restriction could be

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

Le mar. 26 févr. 2019 à 22:24, Gregory P. Smith a écrit : > A feature that I find missing from posix-y OSes that support #! lines is an > ability to restrict what can use a given interpreter. Fedora runs system tools (like "/usr/bin/semanage", tool to manager SELinux) with "python3 -Es": $

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/26/19 6:54 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: There haven't been many new ideas since this summary – mostly it was explaining and re-hashing what's been mentioned before. Thanks for the summary Petr. Here’s another way to think about the problem. I know Nick and I have talked about this before,

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 9:55 AM Barry Warsaw wrote: > > There haven't been many new ideas since this summary – mostly it was > explaining and re-hashing what's been mentioned before. > > Thanks for the summary Petr. > > Here’s another way to think about the problem. I know Nick and I have >

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Tue, Feb 26, 2019 at 8:59 AM INADA Naoki wrote: > > > > With *Homebrew*, `python` points to Homebrew’s Python 2.7.x (if > > installed) otherwise the macOS system Python. That's exactly according > > to the PEP. They tried to switch python to python3 before, and got > > rather nasty backlash

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

> There haven't been many new ideas since this summary – mostly it was > explaining and re-hashing what's been mentioned before. Thanks for the summary Petr. Here’s another way to think about the problem. I know Nick and I have talked about this before, but I don’t think any distros have

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

> > With *Homebrew*, `python` points to Homebrew’s Python 2.7.x (if > installed) otherwise the macOS system Python. That's exactly according > to the PEP. They tried to switch python to python3 before, and got > rather nasty backlash citing PEP 394. I assume they will follow the PEP > quite

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/14/19 9:56 AM, Petr Viktorin wrote: On 2/13/19 4:24 PM, Petr Viktorin wrote: I think it's time for another review. [...] Please see this PR for details and a suggested change: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/893 Summary of the thread so far. Antoine Pitrou noted that the PEP

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Mon, Feb 18, 2019, 7:34 AM Matthias Klose On 16.02.19 00:15, Gregory P. Smith wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:29 AM Barry Warsaw wrote: > > > >> On Feb 13, 2019, at 23:08, Matěj Cepl wrote: > >> > >>> Is this relevant to the discussion at hand? We are talking about > >>> the binary

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 16.02.19 18:25, Nick Coghlan wrote: > While Matthias is still personally reluctant to add the alias for > Debian/Ubuntu, the *only* thing preventing aliasing /usr/bin/python to > /usr/bin/python3 right now on the Fedora & RHEL side of things is PEP > 394, and Guido objected strongly when Petr

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 16.02.19 00:15, Gregory P. Smith wrote: > On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:29 AM Barry Warsaw wrote: > >> On Feb 13, 2019, at 23:08, Matěj Cepl wrote: >> >>> Is this relevant to the discussion at hand? We are talking about >>> the binary /usr/bin/python3 which will be surely be provided >>> even by

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Feb 16, 2019, at 09:25, Nick Coghlan wrote: > While Matthias is still personally reluctant to add the alias for > Debian/Ubuntu, the *only* thing preventing aliasing /usr/bin/python to > /usr/bin/python3 right now on the Fedora & RHEL side of things is PEP > 394, and Guido objected strongly

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Sat, 16 Feb 2019 at 09:19, Gregory P. Smith wrote: > Not our problem? Well, actually, it is. Matthias speaking for Debian > suggesting they don't want to have "python" at all if it isn't a synonym for > "python2" because it'll break software is... wrong. If software is not 3 > compatible

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 9:29 AM Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Feb 13, 2019, at 23:08, Matěj Cepl wrote: > > > Is this relevant to the discussion at hand? We are talking about > > the binary /usr/bin/python3 which will be surely be provided > > even by Python 4, won't it? > > Why would it be? Since

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 2:39 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > In my experience after using 'py' on Windows I consistently miss it on > UNIX now, so to me there is enough of a benefit that I will continue to > chip away at the project until it's done regardless of whether anyone else > uses it. :) > And

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 10:21 AM Gustavo Carneiro wrote: > > > On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 at 15:52, Victor Stinner wrote: > >> Le jeu. 14 févr. 2019 à 14:38, Matthias Klose a écrit : >> > Debian's concern about pointing python to python3 is that it will break >> software >> > after an upgrade. The

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 at 15:52, Victor Stinner wrote: > Le jeu. 14 févr. 2019 à 14:38, Matthias Klose a écrit : > > Debian's concern about pointing python to python3 is that it will break > software > > after an upgrade. The current state seems is still the same that Debian > doesn't > > want to

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 7:50 AM Victor Stinner wrote: > Le jeu. 14 févr. 2019 à 14:38, Matthias Klose a écrit : > > Debian's concern about pointing python to python3 is that it will break > software > > after an upgrade. The current state seems is still the same that Debian > doesn't > > want

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Feb 13, 2019, at 23:08, Matěj Cepl wrote: > Is this relevant to the discussion at hand? We are talking about > the binary /usr/bin/python3 which will be surely be provided > even by Python 4, won't it? Why would it be? Since this is all hypothetical anyway , I’d more likely expect to only

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

I am glad this resurfaced as back in September I proposed updated that very old PEP but I got rejected. https://github.com/python/peps/pull/785 The main issue is that most distros will not fix it until PEP is refreshed because most of them do want to

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

Le jeu. 14 févr. 2019 à 14:38, Matthias Klose a écrit : > Debian's concern about pointing python to python3 is that it will break > software > after an upgrade. The current state seems is still the same that Debian > doesn't > want to ship a python symlink after the Python2 removal. The other

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 13.02.19 16:24, Petr Viktorin wrote: > PEP 394 says: > >> This recommendation will be periodically reviewed over the next few >> years, and updated when the core development team judges it >> appropriate. As a point of reference, regular maintenance releases >> for the Python 2.7 series will

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 13.02.19 17:20, Victor Stinner wrote: > Hi, > > I'm a (strong) supporter of providing a "python" command which would > be the latest Python version! This very much depends on what is working with the latest Python version, and what amount of third party packages your distro has to support. It

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

> On Feb 14, 2019, at 3:44 AM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 00:57:36 -0500 > Jason Swails wrote: >> >> I literally just ran into this problem now. Part of a software suite I've >> written uses Python to fetch updates during the installation process. Due >> to the target

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/13/19 5:45 PM, Victor Stinner wrote: Some more context about Petr's change, Fedora, RHEL and Red Hat. [...] Fedora could switch "python" to Python 3 now*, if the PEP changes to allow it. * "now" has a release date of around October 2019. The next release after that should then be

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

Hi Petr, I would like to add this issue from the devguide where I ask if we need to use python or python3 in the documentation. https://github.com/python/devguide/issues/208 -- Stéphane Wirtel - https://wirtel.be - @matrixise ___ Python-Dev mailing

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/13/19 4:24 PM, Petr Viktorin wrote: I think it's time for another review. [...] Please see this PR for details and a suggested change: https://github.com/python/peps/pull/893 Summary of the thread so far. Antoine Pitrou noted that the PEP should acknowledge that there are now years of

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:43 AM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:32:44 -0800 > Nathaniel Smith wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 3:02 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 05:16:54PM -0500, Terry Reedy wrote: > > > > > > > It appears python is already

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Thu, 14 Feb 2019 00:57:36 -0500 Jason Swails wrote: > > I literally just ran into this problem now. Part of a software suite I've > written uses Python to fetch updates during the installation process. Due > to the target audience, it needs to access the system Python (only), and > support

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:32:44 -0800 Nathaniel Smith wrote: > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 3:02 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 05:16:54PM -0500, Terry Reedy wrote: > > > > > It appears python is already python3 for a large majority of human users > > > (as opposed to

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2019-02-13, 23:33 GMT, Barry Warsaw wrote: > Perhaps. I just don’t think Python 4 is anything but distant > vaporware. There’s a cost to freaking everyone out that > Python 4 is coming and will be as disruptive as Python 3. > Calling Python 3.9+1 Python 4 feeds into that FUD for no >

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 10:26 AM Petr Viktorin wrote: > PEP 394 says: > > > This recommendation will be periodically reviewed over the next few > > years, and updated when the core development team judges it > > appropriate. As a point of reference, regular maintenance releases > > for the

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/13/2019 10:25 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: I haven't come across this FUD about Python 4, I have, on StackOverflow, induced by people reading something like "deprecated now, removed in 4.0" -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 03:33:21PM -0800, Barry Warsaw wrote: > I just don’t think Python 4 is anything but distant vaporware. If Python 4 follows 3.9, that could be as little as 3-4 years away :-) > There’s a cost to freaking everyone out that Python 4 is coming and > will be as disruptive as

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 3:02 PM Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 05:16:54PM -0500, Terry Reedy wrote: > > > It appears python is already python3 for a large majority of human users > > (as opposed to machines). > > > >

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

Steven D'Aprano writes: > But even if representative, this survey only tells us what version > people are using, now how they invoke it. We can't conclude that the > command "python" means Python 3 for these users. We simply don't know > one way or another (and I personally wouldn't want

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2019-02-13, Terry Reedy wrote: > It appears python is already python3 for a large majority of human users (as > opposed to machines). IMHO, the question about where /usr/bin/python points is more important for machines than for humans. Think about changing /bin/sh to some different version of

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Feb 13, 2019, at 15:07, Victor Stinner wrote: > > Le mer. 13 févr. 2019 à 21:26, Barry Warsaw a écrit : >> I don’t think this should be conflated with PEP 394. IMHO, 3.10 is just >> fine. Python 4 should be reserved for some future mythical GIL-less >> interpreter or other major API

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 12:29 PM Barry Warsaw wrote: > I think we should aspire for this to be the case too, eventually. When > this has come up in the past, we’ve said that it’s not appropriate to > change PEP 394 until Python 2 is officially deprecated. OTOH, I appreciate > that distros and

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

Le mer. 13 févr. 2019 à 21:26, Barry Warsaw a écrit : > I don’t think this should be conflated with PEP 394. IMHO, 3.10 is just > fine. Python 4 should be reserved for some future mythical GIL-less > interpreter or other major API breaking change. It might never happen. My point is that

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, Feb 13, 2019 at 05:16:54PM -0500, Terry Reedy wrote: > It appears python is already python3 for a large majority of human users > (as opposed to machines). > > https://www.jetbrains.com/research/python-developers-survey-2018/ > Nearly 2 valid responses, Oct-Nov. They may be valid

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/13/2019 3:26 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: I personally would like for `python` to be the latest Python 3 version (or perhaps Brett’s launcher), `python2` to be Python 2.7 where installed (and not mandatory). `python3` would be an alias for the latest Python 3. It appears python is already

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2019-02-13, Barry Warsaw wrote: > I personally would like for `python` to be the latest Python 3 > version (or perhaps Brett’s launcher), `python2` to be Python 2.7 > where installed (and not mandatory). `python3` would be an alias > for the latest Python 3. To me, having 'py' on Unix would

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Feb 13, 2019, at 08:20, Victor Stinner wrote: > I'm a (strong) supporter of providing a "python" command which would > be the latest Python version! I think we should aspire for this to be the case too, eventually. When this has come up in the past, we’ve said that it’s not appropriate to

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

> On Feb 13, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Steve Dower > > I'm inclined to view "python" as the default, official command, with the > versioned ones being workarounds added by distributors. +1 — almost. I agree that “python” be the default, but it would be good to require (or at least highly encourage)

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 13Feb2019 0820, Victor Stinner wrote: On my Windows VM, "python" is Python 3.7 :-) In virtual environments, "python" can also be Python 3 as well. I recall that I saw commands using "python" rather than "python3" in the *official* Python 3 documentation: see examples below (*). Problem: On

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

Some more context about Petr's change, Fedora, RHEL and Red Hat. At the latest Language Summit (2018), Petr detailed the state of the migration to Python 3 and how Python 2 is and will be handled at Red Hat; "Linux distributions and Python 2" talk with Matthias Klose (who works on Debian/Ubuntu):

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 17:18:15 +0100 Petr Viktorin wrote: > On 2/13/19 4:46 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:24:48 +0100 > > Petr Viktorin wrote: > >> PEP 394 says: > >> > >> > This recommendation will be periodically reviewed over the next few > >> > years, and updated

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

Hi, I'm a (strong) supporter of providing a "python" command which would be the latest Python version! As php does nowadays (after previous issues with "php4" vs "php5".) I don't recall that perl had "perl4" vs "perl5", the command was always "perl", no? Same for Ruby: it was still "ruby" after

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On 2/13/19 4:46 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:24:48 +0100 Petr Viktorin wrote: PEP 394 says: > This recommendation will be periodically reviewed over the next few > years, and updated when the core development team judges it > appropriate. As a point of reference,

Re: [Python-Dev] Another update for PEP 394 -- The "python" Command on Unix-Like Systems

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 16:24:48 +0100 Petr Viktorin wrote: > PEP 394 says: > > > This recommendation will be periodically reviewed over the next few > > years, and updated when the core development team judges it > > appropriate. As a point of reference, regular maintenance releases > > for the