Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 11:23 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.orgwrote:
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:35 AM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org
wrote:
But since he's arguing the
other end in the directory layout thread (where he says there are many
special ways to invoke Python so that having different layouts on
different platforms is easy to work around), I can't give much weight
to his preference here.
You're misconstruing my argument there: I said, rather, that the One
Obvious
Way to deploy a Python application is to dump everything in one
directory,
as that is the one way that Python has supported for at least 15 years
now.
It's not at all obvious on any of the open source platforms (Cygwin,
Debian,
Gentoo, and MacPorts) that I use. In all cases, both several python
binaries
and installed libraries end up in standard places in the distro-maintained
hierarchies, and it is not hard to confuse the distro-installed Pythons.
Really? I've been doing dump the app in a directory since 1998 or so on
various *nix platforms. And when distutils came along, I set up a
user-specific cfg to install in the same directory. ISTR a 5-line
pydistutils.cfg is sufficient to make everything go into to a particular
directory, for packages using distutils for installation.
Being confident that one knows enough to set up a single directory correctly
in the face of some of the unlovely things that packages may do requires
more knowledge of how Python's import etc works than I can boast:
virtualenv is a godsend. By analogy, yes, I think it makes sense to ask
you
to learn a bit about CSS and add a single line like body { width: 65em;
} to
your local config. That's one reason why CSS is designed to cascade.
That line won't work - it'll make the entire page that width, instead of
just text paragraphs. (Plus, it should only be the *maximum* width - i.e.
max-width.) Unfortunately, there's no way to identify the correct selector
to use on all sites to select just the right elements to set max-width on
- not all text is in p, sometimes preformatted text is in a p with
styles setting the formatting to be preformatted.
(In other words, I actually do know a little about CSS - enough to know
your idea won't actually work without tweaking it for different sites. I
have enough Greasemonkey scripts as it is, never mind custom CSS.)
The comparison to CSS is also lost on me here; creating user-specific CSS
is
more aptly comparable telling people to write their own virtualenv
implementations from scratch, and resizing the browser window is more
akin
to telling people to create a virtualenv every time they *run* the
application, rather than just once when installing it.
Huh, if you say so -- I didn't realize that virtualenv did so little that
it could be written in one line.
Around 3-5 lines for dumping everything into a single directory. If you
need multiple such directories at any one time, you can alternately pass
--install-lib and --install-scripts to setup.py install when you install
things. Or you can use easy_install and just specify the -d
(--install-dir) option.
Or, you could use the PYTHONHOME solution I described here in 2005:
http://svn.python.org/view/sandbox/trunk/setuptools/EasyInstall.txt?r1=41220r2=41221
Ian Bicking turned those instructions into a script, which he then
gradually evolved into what we now know as virtualenv.
Before that happened, though, I was deluged with complaints from people who
were using dump it in a directory somewhere on *nix platforms and didn't
want to have anything to do with those danged newfangled virtual
whatchacallits. ;-)
I mention this for context: my generic perception of virtualenv is that
it's a fancy version of PYTHONHOME for people who can't install to
site-packages and for some reason don't just dump their files in a
PYTHONPATH directory like all those complaining people obviously did. ;-)
All I know (and care) is
that it promises to do all that stuff for me, and without affecting the
general public (ie, the distro-provided Python apps).
And that's why I think the width of pages containing flowed text
should be left up to the user to configure.
Your analogy is backwards: virtualenv is a generic, does-it-all-for-you, no
need to touch it solution. User CSS and window sizes have to specified
per-site. (Note that it doesn't suffice to use a small window to get
optimal wrap width: you have to resize to allow for navigation bars,
multiple columns, etc.)
I think we should just agree to disagree; there's virtually no way I'm
going to be convinced on either of these points.
(I do, however, remain open to learning something new about virtualenv, if
it actually does something besides make it possible for you to deal with
ill-behaved setup scripts and installation tools that won't just let you
point them at a single
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 4:45 AM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
[ body { width: 65em; } ] won't work - it'll make the entire page
that width, instead of just text paragraphs.
True (I realized that might be bad in many cases later -- should have
tested first rather than posting something random), but despite your
argument, p { max-width: 40em; } will be good
enough to handle pages where the designer leaves text width up to the
user. Pages (or parts thereof) where the designer fubars the format
for you are not my problem, they're *your* problem. Be careful what
you ask for, because you just might get it.
Also, this is UI, in an environment where poor UI is easily worked
around with a flick of your mouse. A improvement in 90% of the cases
is a 90% improvement -- there won't be any fatal problems in the 10%
where designers choose a max-width that's 200% of your personal
max-width or whatever.
Your analogy is backwards: virtualenv is a generic,
does-it-all-for-you, no need to touch it solution.
If you want to phrase it as an analogy, mine is
virtualenv :: do-it-*for*-you :: site-specified max-width
but
dump-it-in-a-directory :: DIY :: user-specified CSS.
The point of the analogy is that you're being inconsistent by using
dump-it-in-a-directory yourself but recommending site-specified
max-width for the Python docs.
It's true I'm being similarly inconsistent in a sense (using
virtualenv myself but recommending user CSS for Python docs).
However, in this discussion, there are more important things than
consistency. I think there are an awful lot of people who need
reliable deployment, consistent with their development environments,
so it makes sense to have Ian package it up for us as virtualenv,
and for it to be somewhat inflexible in its rules for doing so. OTOH,
AFAICS those who use maximized windows for everything are a relatively
small minority who will be well-served by a simple workaround, and
there are gains to having the flexibility for the rest of us.
The big problem from my point of view with the user CSS solution to
the maximized-window problem is that common browsers don't make this
easy to do. Cf. Terry Reedy's post
asking how to specify user CSS for Firefox (where it's actually easy
enough to do once you know how, but evidently not very discoverable).
However, if you're in a sufficiently small minority (as I believe you
are), it makes sense for Georg to (regretfullywink/) ask you to use
personal CSS to tell your browser about your preference.
User CSS and window sizes have to specified per-site.
They do? But *you* don't, you just maximize your window. So only a
few sites will need specification in any case, those whose max-width
exceeds tolerable bounds for you. And a personal max-width will
affect only unbounded pages unless you use ! important.
The point of user CSS is not to get optimality, which is a
content-dependent problem for negotiation between user and designer,
and sometimes one side or the other takes absolute priority. It's to
ensure that users with special needs (very nearsighted users, users
who prefer to work always in a maximized browser window) don't get
screwed by extreme designs.
(Note that it doesn't suffice to use a small
window to get optimal wrap width:
I don't believe in optimal wrap width, and as far as I know, neither
do the 1% of designers. I don't even *have* a personal optimal wrap
width, although max height is almost always close enough to optimal.
But I sometimes maximize the width of my browser window to get even
more of the structure of text viewable in it, or reduce it to make
word-for-word reading more efficient.
Again, the problem here is not suboptimal. AFAICS, it's preventing
a few people who have evolved personal workflows adapted to a common
design pattern that's not appropriate for documentation (IMO YMMV)
from getting *pessimal* results. I believe that you can get what you
need with user CSS in the case of no max-width (let's not forget that
you and R. David Murray may prefer different values!), while many
use-cases would want no max-width. But p { max-width: none !
important; } would not work well for us, since it would override all
designers who set max-width.
I think we should just agree to disagree; there's virtually
no way I'm going to be convinced on either of these points.
Hey, I'm an economist: de gustibus non est disputandum.
Convincing you is not my goal; I want to convince Georg! *Policy*
needs to be for the greatest good of the greatest number, and Georg
IMO should set max-width, or not, as that makes reading the
documentation more effective for the most people. I prefer not,
assuming it doesn't completely trash its usability for you and David
(and assuming you're in as small a minority as I believe you to be).
___
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe:
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
FWIW it doesn't hurt to err on the side of what worked. i have generally have issues with low contrast, the current stable design is very good with this. i've just built the docs from tip, and the nav bar issue is fixed, nicely done i also don't see any reason to backport theme changes, +0 ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/26/2012 1:00 AM, Greg Ewing wrote: This seems to be another case of the designer over-specifying things. The page should just specify a sans-serif font and let the browser choose the best one available. Or not specify a font at all and leave it up to the user whether he wants serif or sans-serif for the body text -- some people have already said here that they prefer serif. Why even bother formatting the page? The authorship and editorship have authority to dictate the presentation of the content. A large part of the effectiveness of a document and it's ease of consumption is determined by how it appears in whatever medium it's delivered on. While this particular medium invites the readership to participate in design choices, fonts are not all created equal and practical matters (size, tracking, and kerning) will dictate that some fonts will present better than other fonts. Consistent presentation across different systems is also a virtue, since people develop familiarity with the presentation and find information more readily if the presentation is consistent. I have no problem having Georg dictating to me the best font with which to present the documentation. However, I'd appreciate fallback choices that are of a similar appearance along the way to the ultimate fallback of sans-serif. Practically, the fonts available are unknown and unless we adopt the use of a liberally licensed OpenType font and use @font-face to embed a font, we need to provide fallbacks. -- Scott Dial sc...@scottdial.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:22 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: Does the css specify Courier New or is this an unfortunate fallback that might be improved? Perhaps things look better on max/*nix? I just checked pydoctheme.css and Courier New is not specified there. It only specifies monospace. That's a default monospace font set in your browser. I see the code rendered in the font I selected in my browser preferences as Fixed-width font: Menlo 14pt. It's not thin at all -- that's why I selected it. :-) It seems you may want to change that setting in your browser. Firefox uses Courier New as a default setting. Zvezdan ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
the text in the nav bar is too small, particularly in the search box. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 08:44:40 -0400, Scott Dial scott+python-...@scottdial.com wrote: Why even bother formatting the page? The web started out as *content markup*. Functional declarations, not style declarations. I wish it had stayed that way, but it was inevitable that it would not. The authorship and editorship have authority to dictate the presentation of the content. A large part of the effectiveness of a document and it's ease of consumption is determined by how it appears in whatever medium it's delivered on. While this particular medium invites the readership This argument can get as bad as editor religious wars. I like sites that do more content markup and less styling. You like the reverse. There is a good reason to separate css (style) from markup. I just wish browsers gave easier control over the css, and that more designers would stay concious of how a page *reads* (ie: access to the content) without the css (and javascript). I think Georg's design does pretty well in that last regard. (Except for those darn paragraph characters after the headers, but that flaw was in the old design too. Oh, and it would be even better, IMO, if the top navigation block wasn't there when there's no CSS, but that's more of an issue for easier access from screen readers, since the block is reasonably short). --David ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/26/2012 8:46 AM, Zvezdan Petkovic wrote: On Mar 26, 2012, at 12:22 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: Does the css specify Courier New or is this an unfortunate fallback that might be improved? Perhaps things look better on max/*nix? I just checked pydoctheme.css and Courier New is not specified there. It only specifies monospace. That's a default monospace font set in your browser. I see the code rendered in the font I selected in my browser preferences as Fixed-width font: Menlo 14pt. It's not thin at all -- that's why I selected it. :-) It seems you may want to change that setting in your browser. Firefox uses Courier New as a default setting. I found the FireFox monospace setting under Tools / Options / Content / Default font: / Advanced and switched to Deja Vu mono, that being the first obviously monospace font I saw. (Lucida Console is similar.) It has the same 2-pixel lines as Ariel, and the page now looks okay, although when black (as for False, True),the lack of serifs reduces the contrast with Arial. I am guessing that the page now looks somewhat more like it did for Georg when he worked on it. Windows Help uses Internet Explorer settings. Options / Internet Options / General / Appearance / Fonts However, this only allows choice of base font for pages without a specified text font, so I do know know what will happen when new format is applied to the .chm files. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.orgwrote: But since he's arguing the other end in the directory layout thread (where he says there are many special ways to invoke Python so that having different layouts on different platforms is easy to work around), I can't give much weight to his preference here. You're misconstruing my argument there: I said, rather, that the One Obvious Way to deploy a Python application is to dump everything in one directory, as that is the one way that Python has supported for at least 15 years now. Calling this a special way of invoking Python is disingenuous at best: it's the documented *default* way of deploying and invoking a Python script with accompanying libraries. In contrast, the directory layout thread is about supporting virtualenvs, which aren't even *in* Python yet -- if anything is to be considered a special case, that would be it. The comparison to CSS is also lost on me here; creating user-specific CSS is more aptly comparable telling people to write their own virtualenv implementations from scratch, and resizing the browser window is more akin to telling people to create a virtualenv every time they *run* the application, rather than just once when installing it. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 03/24/2012 03:30 AM, PJ Eby wrote: Weird - I have the exact *opposite* problem, where I have to resize my window because somebody *didn't* set their text max-width sanely (to a reasonable value based on ems instead of pixels), and I have nearly 1920 pixels of raw text spanning my screen. Bloody impossible to read that way. But I guess this is going to turn into one of those vi vs. emacs holy war things... (Personally, I prefer jEdit, or nano if absolutely forced to edit in a terminal. Heretical, I know. To the comfy chair with me!) Suppose the author set the size to 1000 pixels, you would end up with 920 white pixels on the side, does it make sense? Using a tiling window manager (for example awesome or xmonad) would solve your problem in a more definitive way imho than hoping in the web designer choices.. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.auwrote: PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com writes: On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: If you don't want 1920-pixel-wide text, why make your browser window that large? Not every tab in my browser is text for reading; some are apps that need the extra horizontal space. So, again, why make your browser window *for reading text* that large? Because I have one browser window, and it's maximized. And I can do this, because most websites are designed in such a way that they have usable margins for text flows. Even PEPs and Python mailing list archives, for example, have sane text margins -- shall we go back and make *those* dependent on window width instead? Also, looking at the email I got from you, it has sane text margins in it. If you don't believe in text margins, why are you using a client that wraps lines and thereby prevents me from viewing your email with full-screen-width text? ;-) (In fairness, I am using a client that *doesn't* wrap the lines, AFAICT. But if Gmail had such an option I would probably use it if I knew where it was in the vast assortment of settings. Which ties in nicely with my next point, below...) Everyone has different needs for how large the text should be and how much of it should go across the window. Every one of us is in a minority when it comes to those needs; that's exactly what a configuration setting is good for. Designers' rules of thumb for text width are based on empirical observations of focal length, saccades, etc. If you have special needs visually, you're more likely to require the text read to you, than to have narrower text, and I at least am unable to conceive of a visual disability that would be helped by *increasing* the text width. In other words, there is a well-established *majority* need for how many characters should appear in an unwrapped line of text, based on majority physiology. Designers who limit it based on pixel size are Doing It Wrong; the max width should be based on em's rather than pixels. (Font sizes are a separate issue.) Done correctly (as visible, say, on any plaintext PEP), you may resize the window and change the font size to your heart's content without affecting the text width in characters. (Also, as a side note: adding lots of configuration options to an interface design is what adding lots of code is to a software design: a smell that the designer isn't *designing* enough.) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:55:42 -0400, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.auwrote: So, again, why make your browser window *for reading text* that large? Because I have one browser window, and it's maximized. And I can do this, because most websites are designed in such a way that they have usable margins for text flows. Even PEPs and Python mailing list archives, for example, have sane text margins -- shall we go back and make *those* dependent on window width instead? [...] Designers' rules of thumb for text width are based on empirical observations of focal length, saccades, etc. If you have special needs visually, you're more likely to require the text read to you, than to have narrower text, and I at least am unable to conceive of a visual disability that would be helped by *increasing* the text width. In other words, there is a well-established *majority* need for how many characters should appear in an unwrapped line of text, based on majority physiology. Designers who limit it based on pixel size are Doing It Wrong; the max width should be based on em's rather than pixels. (Font sizes are a separate issue.) I'm with Philip on this one. I hate web sites that have a fixed text width (so that you can't resize narrower and still read it), but I also prefer ones that set the max width to the readable size in number of character positions. Like Philip, I have *one* window. My window manager (ratpoison) is more like 'screen' for X: you *can* split the window up, but it is *much* more useful to have only one window visible at a time, most of the time. So splitting the window in order to make the text narrow enough to read slows down my workflow. (Which means that on the python docs and the bug tracker I just put up with reading it wide...) I realize that I'm in the minority, though :) --David ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 3/26/2012 10:19 AM, R. David Murray wrote: Like Philip, I have*one* window. My window manager (ratpoison) is more like 'screen' for X: you*can* split the window up, but it is*much* more useful to have only one window visible at a time, most of the time. I'm amazed at the number of people that use maximized windows, one application at a time. I have 2 1600x1200 displays, with 10-30 overlapping windows partially visible, and sometimes wish I had 3 displays, so I could see more windows at a time... but then I'd have to turn my head more, so maybe this is optimal. Two displays lets me get my autohidden taskbar in the vertical center, for quick access from either side. I occasionally maximize a window on one screen or the other (one portrait, one landscape mode), mostly for picture viewing, but a few other times as well. I realize that I'm in the minority, though No doubt I am too :) Everyone is a minority, when all idiotsyncrasies [sic] are considered! ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Glenn Linderman wrote: On 3/26/2012 10:19 AM, R. David Murray wrote: Like Philip, I have *one* window. My window manager (ratpoison) is more like 'screen' for X: you *can* split the window up, but it is *much* more useful to have only one window visible at a time, most of the time. I'm amazed at the number of people that use maximized windows, one application at a time. I have 2 1600x1200 displays, with 10-30 overlapping windows partially visible, and sometimes wish I had 3 displays, so I could see more windows at a time... but then I'd have to turn my head more, so maybe this is optimal. Two displays lets me get my autohidden taskbar in the vertical center, for quick access from either side. I also have two monitors, I use goScreen for three virtual desktops (I'm stuck with XP -- which is to say MS), and each application I use is full-screen while I'm using it. I find windows that I'm not using at that moment a distraction. ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Georg Brandl wrote: On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. Hmm, -0 here. I'd like more opinions on this from other devs. +1 on keeping the 2.x and 3.x styles separate. ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). Have fun! Georg Looks great! Thanks! ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 3/26/2012 10:58 AM, Ethan Furman wrote: Glenn Linderman wrote: On 3/26/2012 10:19 AM, R. David Murray wrote: Like Philip, I have *one* window. My window manager (ratpoison) is more like 'screen' for X: you *can* split the window up, but it is *much* more useful to have only one window visible at a time, most of the time. I'm amazed at the number of people that use maximized windows, one application at a time. I have 2 1600x1200 displays, with 10-30 overlapping windows partially visible, and sometimes wish I had 3 displays, so I could see more windows at a time... but then I'd have to turn my head more, so maybe this is optimal. Two displays lets me get my autohidden taskbar in the vertical center, for quick access from either side. I also have two monitors, I use goScreen for three virtual desktops (I'm stuck with XP -- which is to say MS), and each application I use is full-screen while I'm using it. I find windows that I'm not using at that moment a distraction. Interesting. I guess I'm always distracted :) But I often need data or information from multiple applications in order to make progress on a project... which is why each application seldom gets maximized. I even use multiple Firefox profiles concurrently, to have multiple browsers open for different purposes, as well as multiple tabs within each of them. Sometimes I even need multiple instances of Emacs, as well as multiple windows for a single instance, but that is usually very temporary, due to an interruption (distraction). So my pet peeve about web sites is those that, although they seem to dynamically adjust to different monitor sizes, seem to miscalculate, and display a horizontal scroll bar, and consistently chop stuff off on the right edge of my non-maximized window. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:25:20 -0700 Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. Hmm, -0 here. I'd like more opinions on this from other devs. +1 on keeping the 2.x and 3.x styles separate. I don't really understand the point. If we want to distinguish between 2.x and 3.x, perhaps a lighter difference would suffice. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:25:20 -0700 Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. Hmm, -0 here. I'd like more opinions on this from other devs. +1 on keeping the 2.x and 3.x styles separate. I don't really understand the point. If we want to distinguish between 2.x and 3.x, perhaps a lighter difference would suffice. The point being that 2.x is finished, and the bulk of our effort is now on 3.x. By not changing the 2.x docs we are emphasizing that 3.x is the way to go. ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Antoine Pitrou wrote: On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 08:34:44 +0200 Also I think there should be some jquery animation when collapsing/expanding. Please, no. I don't need my technical web pages singing and dancing for me. ;) ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:35 AM, PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com wrote:
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:56 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org
wrote:
But since he's arguing the
other end in the directory layout thread (where he says there are many
special ways to invoke Python so that having different layouts on
different platforms is easy to work around), I can't give much weight
to his preference here.
You're misconstruing my argument there: I said, rather, that the One Obvious
Way to deploy a Python application is to dump everything in one directory,
as that is the one way that Python has supported for at least 15 years now.
It's not at all obvious on any of the open source platforms (Cygwin, Debian,
Gentoo, and MacPorts) that I use. In all cases, both several python binaries
and installed libraries end up in standard places in the distro-maintained
hierarchies, and it is not hard to confuse the distro-installed Pythons.
Being confident that one knows enough to set up a single directory correctly
in the face of some of the unlovely things that packages may do requires
more knowledge of how Python's import etc works than I can boast:
virtualenv is a godsend. By analogy, yes, I think it makes sense to ask you
to learn a bit about CSS and add a single line like body { width: 65em; } to
your local config. That's one reason why CSS is designed to cascade.
Of course, even better yet would be if the browsers wrote the CSS for you
(which probably wouldn't be too hard, if I knew any XUL, which I don't).
The comparison to CSS is also lost on me here; creating user-specific CSS is
more aptly comparable telling people to write their own virtualenv
implementations from scratch, and resizing the browser window is more akin
to telling people to create a virtualenv every time they *run* the
application, rather than just once when installing it.
Huh, if you say so -- I didn't realize that virtualenv did so little that
it could be written in one line. All I know (and care) is
that it promises to do all that stuff for me, and without affecting the
general public (ie, the distro-provided Python apps).
And that's why I think the width of pages containing flowed text
should be left up to the user to configure.
___
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Hi, Le 25/03/2012 15:25, Georg Brandl a écrit : On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. Hmm, -0 here. I'd like more opinions on this from other devs. I’m +0 on Steven’s proposal and +1 on whatever you will decide. Cheers ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 1:41 AM, Ben Finney ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au wrote: PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com writes: Not every tab in my browser is text for reading; some are apps that need the extra horizontal space. So, again, why make your browser window *for reading text* that large? Because he prefers controlling the content viewed by selecting tabs rather than selecting windows, no doubt. But since he's arguing the other end in the directory layout thread (where he says there are many special ways to invoke Python so that having different layouts on different platforms is easy to work around), I can't give much weight to his preference here. Anyway, CSS is supposed to allow the user to impose such constraints herself, so Philip should do so with a local style, rather than ask designers to do it globally. It's madness to expect web designers to hobble the flexibility of a web page to cater preferentially for one minority over others. No, as Glenn points out, designers (I wouldn't call them *web* designers since they clearly have no intention of taking advantage of the power of the web in design, even if they incorporate links in their pages!) frequently do exactly that. (The minority of one in question being the designer himself!) So it's rational to expect it. :-( However, I believe that CSS also gives us the power to undo such bloodymindedness, though I've never gone to the trouble of learning how. Steve ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net writes: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ Great! You've improved it nicely. I especially like that you have URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_JavaScript done the collapsible sidebar with graceful degradation: the content is quite accessible without ECMAscript. Can you make the link colors (in the body and sidebar) follow the usual conventions: use a blue colour for unvisited links, and a purple colour for visited links URL:http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040510.html so it's more obvious where links are and where the reader has already been. -- \ “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them | `\to do to their fellows, because it always coincides with their | _o__) own desires.” —Susan Brownell Anthony, 1896 | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 08:34, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). Nice and clean. +1 Eli ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/24/2012 11:34 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). It would be educational to see how you pulled that trick! I will look if I get time. However, in playing with it, it has the definite disadvantage of forcing the user to position/click the mouse twice, if the goal is not to collapse the sidebar, but simply to make the content visible. Might there be an additional way to move the content, perhaps by a click in the blank portions of the sidebar (above the top or below the bottom of the content, in the shaded area), that it would bring the content to view? The position chosen for the content could happily be the same position you choose when doing the collapse/expand dance, I have no quibble with that. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ Nice! Lightweight and readable. From the bikeshedding department: * Inlined code doesn't need the gray background. The bold font makes it stand out enough. * Instead of the box consider italics or another color for [New in ...] text. * Nobody is going to switch off the prompts for interactive sessions. * Maybe the Next/Previous Page headers on the left could link to the respective page. * Short descriptions in the module index don't need italics. * The disambiguation in the index table could use a different style instead of the parentheses. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
25.03.12 09:34, Georg Brandl написав(ла): Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: It may be worth now the line-height reduce too? I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). What if move the search field to the header and the footer? There a lot of free space. Report a Bug and Show Source can also be moved to the footer, if fit. The footer height is too big now, I think that you can reduce the copyright and technical information from 4 to 2 lines. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
25.03.12 11:06, Peter Otten написав(ла): * Inlined code doesn't need the gray background. The bold font makes it stand out enough. I believe that the gray background is good, but it should make it lighter. * Instead of the box consider italics or another color for [New in ...] text. Yes, the border around New in and Changed in looks not good-looking. Maybe a very light colored background with no border or underlined italic will look better. * Maybe the Next/Previous Page headers on the left could link to the respective page. Do you mean next/previous links in header/footer? I totally agree with your other comments, including the admiration of the current version of the design. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
I like to always see Quick search widget without scrolling page to top. Is it possible? Or maybe you can embed some keyboard shortcut for quick jump to search input box? On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Serhiy Storchaka storch...@gmail.com wrote: 25.03.12 11:06, Peter Otten написав(ла): * Inlined code doesn't need the gray background. The bold font makes it stand out enough. I believe that the gray background is good, but it should make it lighter. * Instead of the box consider italics or another color for [New in ...] text. Yes, the border around New in and Changed in looks not good-looking. Maybe a very light colored background with no border or underlined italic will look better. * Maybe the Next/Previous Page headers on the left could link to the respective page. Do you mean next/previous links in header/footer? I totally agree with your other comments, including the admiration of the current version of the design. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/andrew.svetlov%40gmail.com -- Thanks, Andrew Svetlov ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
In the header next to Python v3.3a1 documentation there is a » symbol, which suggests something can be expanded. Knowing that there are many versions of the documentation, I thought it might bring up a menu of versions. But clicking does nothing. Is that intentional? I guess it's supposed to mean go to top but that wasn't obvious to me. I think the clickable areas in the header and footer should be indicated with the usual coloring (either the scheme you currently use, or perhaps as Ben suggests blue and purple as in traditional HTML documents). I agree that what you do looks nice and is sufficiently functional once you realize it, but I've seen a lot of research that indicates that up to 60% of users can't find all the links on a page unless they're explicitly marked. (In one focus group 4 of 14 users never found a menu that took up 40% of the area of the page!) My first impression of the questionable feature that the sidebar is aligned with the scroll position when expanded is that it's useful. It looks pretty good without CSS, too! On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 8:34 AM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). Have fun! Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/stephen%40xemacs.org ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
25.03.12 09:34, Georg Brandl написав(ла): I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). I'm not sure if this is possible, and how good it would look like, but I have one crazy idea. What if transform the sidebar to collapsable floating box in the upper right corner? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Andrew Svetlov andrew.svet...@gmail.com wrote: I like to always see Quick search widget without scrolling page to top. Is it possible? Do you mean a fixed search box like this one? http://coq.inria.fr/documentation Please don't do this, I find scrolling exceptionally distracting in the presence of fixed elements. Stefan Krah ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 12:04 PM, Stefan Krah ste...@bytereef.org wrote: Andrew Svetlov andrew.svet...@gmail.com wrote: I like to always see Quick search widget without scrolling page to top. Is it possible? Do you mean a fixed search box like this one? http://coq.inria.fr/documentation No. You are right, it's distracting. Maybe narrow persistent line with searchbox on the top will be better. But just jump to searchbox by shortcut is good enough for me also. Please don't do this, I find scrolling exceptionally distracting in the presence of fixed elements. Stefan Krah ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/andrew.svetlov%40gmail.com -- Thanks, Andrew Svetlov ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Hi Georg, Am 25.03.2012 um 08:34 schrieb Georg Brandl: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ I really like it! Only one nitpick: If a header follows on a “seealso”, the vertical rhythm is slightly broken like in https://skitch.com/hyneks/8c6j8/ Minor detail but should be easy to fix. :) Cheers, Hynek ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Serhiy Storchaka wrote: * Maybe the Next/Previous Page headers on the left could link to the respective page. Do you mean next/previous links in header/footer? No, I mean the two sections in the sidebar on the left, below Table of Contents. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Stefan Krah ste...@bytereef.org wrote: Do you mean a fixed search box like this one? http://coq.inria.fr/documentation Please don't do this, I find scrolling exceptionally distracting in the presence of fixed elements. Does it bother you when the header is fixed and contains the search box? I prefer that arrangement, anyway. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 08:34:44AM +0200, Georg Brandl wrote: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ Perfect! I like it! Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttp://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Is nice yes?! When I small the nav bar, then embiggen it again, the text centers vertically. It's in the wrong place. The new theme is very minimal, perhaps a new color should be chosen. We've done green, what about orange, brown or blue? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 08:34:44 +0200 Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). The gimmick is buggy (when you collapse then expand it in the middle, and then scroll up, the sidebar content disappears after scrolling), and in the end quite confusing. Also I think there should be some jquery animation when collapsing/expanding. I think the New in version... and Changed in version... styles stand out in the wrong kind of way (as in drawn by a 8-year old with a pen and ruler, perhaps). Perhaps you want some coloured background instead? (or, better, an icon - by the way, warnings also scream for an icon IMO) Otherwise, not sure what problem this new theme solves, but it looks ok. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote: Do you mean a fixed search box like this one? http://coq.inria.fr/documentation Please don't do this, I find scrolling exceptionally distracting in the presence of fixed elements. Does it bother you when the header is fixed and contains the search box? I prefer that arrangement, anyway. Do you have an example website? In general fixed elements distract me greatly. This also applies to the '' element in the collapsible sidebar. When I'm scrolling, it's almost the center of my attention (when I should be focusing on the text). Perhaps users can discover the collapsible sidebar without the '' hint? Or let it move up like in the existing version? Stefan Krah ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Stefan Krah ste...@bytereef.org wrote: Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote: Does it bother you when the header is fixed and contains the search box? I prefer that arrangement, anyway. Do you have an example website? Not with just a header. http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/Teach/IntroSES/ is a (very primitive and not stylistically improved in years) example of a frame-based layout that I use some of my classes. I would put a search field in the top frame (if I had one. :-) But I suppose you would find the fixed sidebar distracting. In general fixed elements distract me greatly. This also applies to the '' element in the collapsible sidebar. When I'm scrolling, it's almost the center of my attention (when I should be focusing on the text). I suspect you're unusual in that, but I guess it just is going to bug you no matter what, and I personally don't have *that* strong a preference either way. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 07:07, Antoine Pitrou solip...@pitrou.net wrote: I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). The gimmick is buggy (when you collapse then expand it in the middle, and then scroll up, the sidebar content disappears after scrolling), and in the end quite confusing. It also seems not to handle window resizes very well right now. It appears to choose the height for the vertical bar when shown, and then when the text next to it reflows to a new length, the bar can become longer or shorter than necessary. On the one hand this makes it hard to get the sidebar content to show at the bottom of the page; on the other, I believe it mitigates potential problems if sidebar content is too long for the window size. -- Michael Urman ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/25/2012 2:34 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ Georg, thanks so much for taking on this thankless task with grace and skill. It can't be easy dealing with the death by a thousand tweaks, and I know I've contributed to the flurry. Nowhere on the page is a simple link to the front page of python.org. Perhaps the traditional upper-left corner could get a bread-crumb before Python v3.3a1 documentation that simply links to python.org. Maybe, use the word Python that is already there: [Python] » [v3.3a1 documentation]. People do arrive at doc pages via search engines, and connecting the docs up to the rest of the site would be a good thing. Speaking of links to other pages, the doc front page, under Other resources lists Guido's Essays and New-style Classes second and third. These each point to extremely outdated material (Unifying types and classes in 2.2, and Unfortunately, new-style classes have not yet been integrated into Python's standard documention. ??). Another, Other Doc Collections, points to an empty apache-style directory listing :-(. These links should be removed if we don't want to keep those sections of the site up-to-date. I know this is not strictly part of the redesign, but I just noticed it and thought I would throw it out there. I agree about the outlined style for New notices, and the red for deprecation is extremely alarming! :) I'll make one last plea for not justifying short paragraphs full of unbreakable elements, but I know I am in the minority. I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). I especially like using dynamic elements on a page to adapt to a reader's needs. I have some other ideas that I'll try to cobble together. --Ned. Have fun! Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/ned%40nedbatchelder.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25/03/2012 16:26, Ned Batchelder wrote: Georg, thanks so much for taking on this thankless task with grace and skill. It can't be easy dealing with the death by a thousand tweaks Seconded. I'm constantly edified by the way in which people in the community respond to even quite abrupt criticism in a constructive, open and often humorous manner. (As I've said before, I'm also impressed by the way in which people are prepared to come back and apologise / acknowledge that they had a moment of jerkiness). TJG ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/25/2012 2:34 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast Untrue. You still changed the high contrast dark blue to the same low contrast light blue for builtin names, etc. What problem do you think you are trying to solve by making the doc difficult and even PAINFUL for me to read? - a lot more than 1 -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Stephen J. Turnbull step...@xemacs.org wrote: Not with just a header. http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp/Teach/IntroSES/ is a (very primitive and not stylistically improved in years) example of a frame-based layout that I use some of my classes. I would put a search field in the top frame (if I had one. :-) But I suppose you would find the fixed sidebar distracting. No, if the whole sidebar is fixed I don't mind (though I'm not a fan of frames). The top frame takes up space though. In general fixed elements distract me greatly. This also applies to the '' element in the collapsible sidebar. When I'm scrolling, it's almost the center of my attention (when I should be focusing on the text). I suspect you're unusual in that, but I guess it just is going to bug you no matter what, and I personally don't have *that* strong a preference either way. Maybe. It's hard to determine. It's just that I don't see fixed search boxes or fixed elements like '' on big name websites (who may or may not have usability departments). So it is at least possible that such features have always been controversial. Stefan Krah ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 09:19, Ben Finney wrote: Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net writes: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ Great! You've improved it nicely. I especially like that you have URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtrusive_JavaScript done the collapsible sidebar with graceful degradation: the content is quite accessible without ECMAscript. Can you make the link colors (in the body and sidebar) follow the usual conventions: use a blue colour for unvisited links, and a purple colour for visited links URL:http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20040510.html so it's more obvious where links are and where the reader has already been. Thanks. Same colors for visited and unvisited links is indeed an oversight on my part. I'll put that in the final version. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 17:26, Ned Batchelder wrote: On 3/25/2012 2:34 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ Georg, thanks so much for taking on this thankless task with grace and skill. It can't be easy dealing with the death by a thousand tweaks, and I know I've contributed to the flurry. Nowhere on the page is a simple link to the front page of python.org. Perhaps the traditional upper-left corner could get a bread-crumb before Python v3.3a1 documentation that simply links to python.org. Maybe, use the word Python that is already there: [Python] » [v3.3a1 documentation]. People do arrive at doc pages via search engines, and connecting the docs up to the rest of the site would be a good thing. Indeed. I'm trying to tweak that right now. Speaking of links to other pages, the doc front page, under Other resources lists Guido's Essays and New-style Classes second and third. These each point to extremely outdated material (Unifying types and classes in 2.2, and Unfortunately, new-style classes have not yet been integrated into Python's standard documention. ??). Another, Other Doc Collections, points to an empty apache-style directory listing :-(. These links should be removed if we don't want to keep those sections of the site up-to-date. I know this is not strictly part of the redesign, but I just noticed it and thought I would throw it out there. That would be best to capture in a bugs.python.org issue, I think. I agree about the outlined style for New notices, and the red for deprecation is extremely alarming! :) Changed. I'll make one last plea for not justifying short paragraphs full of unbreakable elements, but I know I am in the minority. :) I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). I especially like using dynamic elements on a page to adapt to a reader's needs. I have some other ideas that I'll try to cobble together. That would be great. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 10:06, Peter Otten wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ Nice! Lightweight and readable. From the bikeshedding department: * Inlined code doesn't need the gray background. The bold font makes it stand out enough. * Instead of the box consider italics or another color for [New in ...] text. Yes, I'll revert to italics as most people don't seem to like the colored boxes. * Nobody is going to switch off the prompts for interactive sessions. You'll laugh, but that was a pretty often-wished feature so that copy-paste gets easier. It'll certainly stay. * Maybe the Next/Previous Page headers on the left could link to the respective page. I see no reason since the links below already do. * Short descriptions in the module index don't need italics. * The disambiguation in the index table could use a different style instead of the parentheses. These two would need to be changed in Sphinx. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 17:54, Terry Reedy wrote: On 3/25/2012 2:34 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast Untrue. You still changed the high contrast dark blue to the same low contrast light blue for builtin names, etc. What problem do you think you are trying to solve by making the doc difficult and even PAINFUL for me to read? - a lot more than 1 More contrast was meant in comparison to iteration #1. Hmm, don't you think you'll get used to the new style in a while? The link color is not actually that light in comparison. Of course you can always use a user stylesheet to override our choices. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 13:09, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Stefan Krah ste...@bytereef.org wrote: Do you mean a fixed search box like this one? http://coq.inria.fr/documentation Please don't do this, I find scrolling exceptionally distracting in the presence of fixed elements. Does it bother you when the header is fixed and contains the search box? I prefer that arrangement, anyway. I think this idea has some merit. I'd prefer it to be tried out and implemented in a second step though (maybe by someone else, even? ;) Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 08:34, Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast and collapsible sidebar again: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/ I've also added a little questionable gimmick to the sidebar (when you collapse it and expand it again, the content is shown at your current scroll location). Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. Please make further suggestions (preferably with patches) through the bug tracker. cheers, Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Not sure if you addressed this in your answers to other comments... Scroll down the page. Minimize the nav bar on the left. Bring it back out again. Now the text in the nav bar permanently starts at an offset from the top of the page. On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 7:44 PM, Matt Joiner anacro...@gmail.com wrote: Is nice yes?! When I small the nav bar, then embiggen it again, the text centers vertically. It's in the wrong place. The new theme is very minimal, perhaps a new color should be chosen. We've done green, what about orange, brown or blue? ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. -- Steven ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 21:09, Matt Joiner wrote: Not sure if you addressed this in your answers to other comments... Scroll down the page. Minimize the nav bar on the left. Bring it back out again. Now the text in the nav bar permanently starts at an offset from the top of the page. Yes, that was the intention I mentioned in my post. That has been removed though from the final version I checked in. There are certainly much better solutions. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. Hmm, -0 here. I'd like more opinions on this from other devs. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
I like to see new schema only for 3.3 as sign of shiny new release. On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. Hmm, -0 here. I'd like more opinions on this from other devs. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/andrew.svetlov%40gmail.com -- Thanks, Andrew Svetlov ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. I think it would be better to leave 2.7 with the old theme, to keep it visually distinct from the nifty new theme used with the nifty new 3.2 and 3.3 versions. Hmm, -0 here. I'd like more opinions on this from other devs. Georg I would definitely like the new theme on 2.7 docs as well, since 2.7 is still supported. Cheers, fijal ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 14:50, Andrew Svetlov andrew.svet...@gmail.com wrote: I like to see new schema only for 3.3 as sign of shiny new release. Please don't do this. It will result in endless complaints. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Brian Curtin br...@python.org writes: On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 14:50, Andrew Svetlov andrew.svet...@gmail.com wrote: I like to see new schema only for 3.3 as sign of shiny new release. Please don't do this. It will result in endless complaints. Complaints of what nature? Do you think those complaints are justified? -- \“… Nature … is seen to do all things herself and through | `\ herself of own accord, rid of all gods.” —Titus Lucretius | _o__) Carus, c. 40 BCE | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/25/2012 12:32 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: On 25.03.2012 17:54, Terry Reedy wrote: On 3/25/2012 2:34 AM, Georg Brandl wrote: Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more contrast Untrue. You still changed the high contrast dark blue to the same low contrast light blue for builtin names, etc. What problem do you think you are trying to solve by making the doc difficult and even PAINFUL for me to read? - a lot more than 1 More contrast was meant in comparison to iteration #1. It is still subjectively dim enough to me that I could not tell from memory. I ran the following experiment: I put old and new versions of the buitin functions page side-by-side in separate browser windows. I asked my teenage daughter to come into the room, approach slowly, and say when she could read one or both windows. At about 5 feet, she could (just) read the old but not the new. If other people repeat the experiment and get the same result, it would then be fair to say that the new style is objectively less readable in regard to this one aspect. Hmm, don't you think you'll get used to the new style in a while? This is a bit like asking a wheelchair user if he would get used to having a ramp ground down to add little one-inch steps every two feet, because leg-abled people found that somehow more aesthetic. Answer: somewhat. Wired magazine has used a similar thin blue font. I got used to that by ignoring any text written with it. The link color is not actually that light in comparison. Using a magnifying glass, the difference seems to be more one of thickness -- 2 pixel lines versus 1-1.5 pixel lines. I have astigmatism that is only partly correctable and the residual blurring of single-pixel lines tends to somewhat mix text color with the background color. Of course you can always use a user stylesheet to override our choices. Can anyone tell me the best way to do that with FireFox? Is it even possible with the Windows help version, which is what I usually use? -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/25/2012 12:32 PM, Georg Brandl wrote:
On 25.03.2012 17:54, Terry Reedy wrote:
On 3/25/2012 2:34 AM, Georg Brandl wrote:
Here's another try, mainly with default browser font size, more
contrast
Untrue. You still changed the high contrast dark blue to the same low
contrast light blue for builtin names, etc. What problem do you think
you are trying to solve by making the doc difficult and even PAINFUL for
me to read?
- a lot more than 1
More contrast was meant in comparison to iteration #1.
It is still subjectively dim enough to me that I could not tell from
memory.
I ran the following experiment: I put old and new versions of the buitin
functions page side-by-side in separate browser windows. I asked my
teenage daughter to come into the room, approach slowly, and say when
she could read one or both windows. At about 5 feet, she could (just)
read the old but not the new.
Do you often read things on your computer monitor from 5ft away?
While I sympathize with the ideal of making the docs readable, particular for
those of us who don't have 20-20 vision, must be readable from halfway across
the room is setting the bar too high. What is important is not *absolute*
readability, but readability relative to the normal use-case of sitting at a
computer under typical reading conditions.
To be honest here, I don't even know which elements you are having trouble
with. I don't see any elements with such low contrast to cause problems at
least not for me. Even with my glasses off, I find the built-in names to be no
less readable as the vanilla text around it. E.g. on this page:
http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html2/library/stdtypes.html
I see built-in names such as `int` and `str` are written as hyperlinks in
medium blue on a white background. When I hover over the link, it becomes a
touch lighter blue, but not enough to appreciably hurt contrast and readability.
I see literals such as `{}` in black on a pale blue-grey background. The
background is faint enough that it is hardly noticeable, not enough to hurt
contrast. So I don't know what you are speaking off when you say the same low
contrast light blue for builtin names, etc. -- can you give an example?
[...]
Using a magnifying glass, the difference seems to be more one of
thickness -- 2 pixel lines versus 1-1.5 pixel lines. I have astigmatism
that is only partly correctable and the residual blurring of
single-pixel lines tends to somewhat mix text color with the background
color.
For what it's worth, it wouldn't surprise me if the problem is the fallback
font. If I'm reading the CSS correctly, the standard font used in the new docs
is Lucinda Grande, with a fallback of Arial. Unfortunately, Lucinda Grande
is normally only available on the Apple Mac, and Arial is a notoriously poor
choice for on-screen text (particularly in smaller text sizes).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucida_Grande
suggests fallbacks of Lucida Sans Unicode, Tahoma, and Verdana. Could they
please be tried before Arial?
E.g. change the font-family from
font-family: 'Lucida Grande',Arial,sans-serif;
to
font-family: 'Lucida Grande','Lucida Sans Unicode','Lucida
Sans',Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,sans-serif;
or similar.
--
Steven
___
Python-Dev mailing list
Python-Dev@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev
Unsubscribe:
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 7:42 AM, Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: Can anyone tell me the best way to do that with FireFox? For general webbrowsing, I'm reasonably impressed by the effectiveness of www.readability.com. It's a sign-up service however, and I've never tried it on technical material like the Python docs. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/25/2012 8:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: E.g. change the font-family from font-family: 'Lucida Grande',Arial,sans-serif; to font-family: 'Lucida Grande','Lucida Sans Unicode','Lucida Sans',Tahoma,Verdana,Arial,sans-serif; or similar. +1 To providing other fallbacks. As Steven says, on my Win7 machine, I do not have 'Lucida Grande' and it wasn't until he mentioned this that I compared the experience of the site with my MacBook (which looks much better!). This machine has both 'Lucida Sans Unicode' and 'Lucida Sans' and it's a toss-up to me which is better -- one is better than the other in certain contexts. Presumably, the character coverage of the Unicode font makes it the superior choice. Personally, I would leave Tahoma out of the list -- the kerning of the font is really aggressive and I find it much harder to read than Verdana. -- Scott Dial sc...@scottdial.com ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/25/2012 8:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Terry Reedy wrote: I ran the following experiment: I put old and new versions of the buitin functions page side-by-side in separate browser windows. I asked my teenage daughter to come into the room, approach slowly, and say when she could read one or both windows. At about 5 feet, she could (just) read the old but not the new. The test page I used was the builtin function page in the Library Reference. Do you often read things on your computer monitor from 5ft away? No, I cannot possibly do that. The point is that there *is* a distance for her as well as me at which the old style is clearly more readable than the new. For my daughter, is is 4-5 feet. For me, it is about 2 feet -- with my prescription computer reading glasses. For you, try it and find out. Obviously, most of the people here are more like my daughter than me. I am visually handicapped, and that particular new style is worse for me. And to what purpose? -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 21:25, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: On 25.03.2012 21:11, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Georg Brandl wrote: Thanks everyone for the overwhelmingly positive feedback. I've committed the new design to 3.2 and 3.3 for now, and it will be live for the 3.3 docs momentarily (3.2 isn't rebuilt at the moment until 3.2.3 final goes out). I'll transplant to 2.7 too, probably after the final release of 2.7.3. Georg, Is there a tracker issue to collect reports about misbehavior of the new theme? Specifically, the sidebar behaves very strangely in the search page. I think it should not be there at all. Eli ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
On 3/25/2012 8:37 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: For what it's worth, it wouldn't surprise me if the problem is the fallback font. If I'm reading the CSS correctly, the standard font used in the new docs is Lucinda Grande, with a fallback of Arial. Unfortunately, Lucinda Grande is normally only available on the Apple Mac, and Arial is a notoriously poor choice for on-screen text (particularly in smaller text sizes). Testing in LibreOffice, I think Ariel may be easier as it has a consistent stroke width, whereas Lucida has thin horizontals. It does look a bit more elegant, though. In any case, Ariel seems to be the basic text font I see in Firefox and Windows help and I have no problem with it. The particular entries I have discussed are class=reference internal There have light serifs. Testing in LibreOffice, it seems to be Courier New. It was previously Courier New 'bold'. I put that in quotes because Courier New is a 'light' font, so that the 'bold' is normal relative to Ariel. In other words, Courier bold matches normal Ariel in stroke weight, so that is looks right mixed in with Ariel, whereas the Courier light is jarring. In a sentence like this returns False; otherwise it returns True. bool is also a class, which is a subclass of int False, True (which use light-weight black rather than light-weight blue Courier), bool, and int all stand out (or stand in) because they have a lighter stroke weight as well as a different (serif versus non-serif) font. These are important words and should not be made to recede into the background as if they were unimportant and optionally skipped. To me, this is backwards and poor design. False,false are marked up like this: tt class=xref docutils literalspan class=preFalse/span/tt bool,in are like so: a class=reference internal href=#int title=int Does the css specify Courier New or is this an unfortunate fallback that might be improved? Perhaps things look better on max/*nix? -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs, iteration 2
Steven D'Aprano wrote: While I sympathize with the ideal of making the docs readable, particular for those of us who don't have 20-20 vision, must be readable from halfway across the room is setting the bar too high. The point is that reducing contrast never makes anything more readable, and under some conditions it makes things less readable. So the only reason for using less than the maximum available contrast is aesthetics, and whether grey-on-white looks any nicer than black-on-white is very much a matter of opinion. In any case, the aesthetic difference is a very minor one, and you have to ask whether it's really worth compromising on contrast. If I'm reading the CSS correctly, the standard font used in the new docs is Lucinda Grande, with a fallback of Arial. Unfortunately, Lucinda Grande is normally only available on the Apple Mac, and Arial is a notoriously poor choice for on-screen text This seems to be another case of the designer over-specifying things. The page should just specify a sans-serif font and let the browser choose the best one available. Or not specify a font at all and leave it up to the user whether he wants serif or sans-serif for the body text -- some people have already said here that they prefer serif. -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 3:55 PM, John O'Connor jxo6...@rit.edu wrote: On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 6:38 PM, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme, especially as so many other projects use it. I think regardless of the chosen style, giving the Python 3 docs a different look and feel also has a psychological benefit that might further encourage users to consider moving to Python 3. It could be a bit of a wake-up call. +3 Of course you do realize that the only possible outcome of this thread which is *literally* about painting the docs bike shed is to have a row of dynamic change my css theme buttons somewhere with one for each person that has piped up in this thread. Which would lead to a stateful docs web server with cookie preferences on which css to default to for each and every viewer. This doesn't end well... ;) Good luck (and thanks for trying, I like seeing the new styles!) -gps ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nzwrote: PJ Eby wrote: Weird - I have the exact *opposite* problem, where I have to resize my window because somebody *didn't* set their text max-width sanely (to a reasonable value based on ems instead of pixels), and I have nearly 1920 pixels of raw text spanning my screen. If you don't want 1920-pixel-wide text, why make your browser window that large? Not every tab in my browser is text for reading; some are apps that need the extra horizontal space. That is, they have more than one column of text or data -- but no individual column spans anywhere near the full width. (Google Docs, for example, shows me two pages at a time when I'm reading a PDF.) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
PJ Eby p...@telecommunity.com writes: On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nzwrote: If you don't want 1920-pixel-wide text, why make your browser window that large? Not every tab in my browser is text for reading; some are apps that need the extra horizontal space. So, again, why make your browser window *for reading text* that large? You have control over how large your window size is, and if you have purposes so different that they demand different widths, then you can easily make different-width windows. Everyone has different needs for how large the text should be and how much of it should go across the window. Every one of us is in a minority when it comes to those needs; that's exactly what a configuration setting is good for. It's madness to expect web designers to hobble the flexibility of a web page to cater preferentially for one minority over others. -- \ “Come on Milhouse, there’s no such thing as a soul! It’s just | `\ something they made up to scare kids, like the Boogie Man or | _o__) Michael Jackson.” —Bart, _The Simpsons_ | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 3/24/2012 5:41 PM, Ben Finney wrote: It's madness to expect web designers to hobble the flexibility of a web page to cater preferentially for one minority over others. But largely, the 99% that makes the rest of them look bad, do, in fact, do exactly that. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Glyph Lefkowitz wrote: do I have to resize my browser every time I visit a new site to get a decent width for reading. If all sites left the width to the browser, then I would be able to make my browser window a width that is comfortable for me with my chosen font size and leave it that way. The only time a site forces me to resize my window is when it thinks it has a better idea than me how wide the text should be. I prefer sites that don't try to control the layout of everything. When using a site that leaves most of it up to my browser, I never find myself wishing that the designer had specified something more tightly. However, I do often find myself wishing that the designer *hadn't* overridden the width, or the font size, or the text colour, or decided that I shouldn't be allowed to know whether I've visited links before, etc. etc. A web page is not a printed page. It is not rendered at a fixed size and viewed in its entirety at once. It needs to be flexible, able to be rendered in whatever size space is available or the user wants to devote to it. Browsers are very good at doing that -- unless the designer defeats them by fixing something that is better left flexible. -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Mar 23, 2012 9:16 PM, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: Glyph Lefkowitz wrote: do I have to resize my browser every time I visit a new site to get a decent width for reading. If all sites left the width to the browser, then I would be able to make my browser window a width that is comfortable for me with my chosen font size and leave it that way. The only time a site forces me to resize my window is when it thinks it has a better idea than me how wide the text should be. Weird - I have the exact *opposite* problem, where I have to resize my window because somebody *didn't* set their text max-width sanely (to a reasonable value based on ems instead of pixels), and I have nearly 1920 pixels of raw text spanning my screen. Bloody impossible to read that way. But I guess this is going to turn into one of those vi vs. emacs holy war things... (Personally, I prefer jEdit, or nano if absolutely forced to edit in a terminal. Heretical, I know. To the comfy chair with me!) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
PJ Eby wrote: Weird - I have the exact *opposite* problem, where I have to resize my window because somebody *didn't* set their text max-width sanely (to a reasonable value based on ems instead of pixels), and I have nearly 1920 pixels of raw text spanning my screen. If you don't want 1920-pixel-wide text, why make your browser window that large? -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 21.03.2012 20:39, Guido van Rossum wrote: Guido, you encouraged us to use science, but only after describing my science-based maximum line-length suggestion as coddling, then said we should let Georg get on with it, but only after reiterating your personal favorite tweak (which I happen to agree with). I have a fair number of strong usability gripes about current (and past :-) design trends, but I know I can't design a decent looking website myself if my life depended on it. There's no way a committee (which this thread effectively is) will come up with a good design. Everyone will dislike something about it. I think it would be interesting to use the power of the web to provide docs whose style could be adjusted a few ways to make people happy, but that is probably more than anyone is willing to volunteer for, I know I can't step up to do it. I think it's fine to have a bunch of folks submit their pet peeves (and argue them to the death :-) to the design czar and then let the czar (i.e. Georg) decide. Personally, I think two Python projects that have focused on docs and done a good job of it are Django and readthedocs.org. Perhaps we could follow their lead? I think they are actually more trend-followers,and they seem to make a bunch of the mistakes I've fulminated against here. But again, I'll leave it to Georg. Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll know what to consider for the next iteration thanks to the lively participation here :) Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Mar 21, 2012, at 6:28 PM, Greg Ewing wrote: Ned Batchelder wrote: Any of the tweaks people are suggesting could be applied individually using this technique. We could just as easily choose to make the site left-justified, and let the full-justification fans use custom stylesheets to get it. Is it really necessary for the site to specify the justification at all? Why not leave it to the browser and whatever customisation the user chooses to make? It's design. It's complicated. Maybe yes, if you look at research related to default usage patterns, and saccade distance, reading speed and retention latency. Maybe no, if you look at research related to fixation/focus time, eye strain, and non-linear access patterns. Maybe maybe, if you look at the subjective aesthetic of the page according to various criteria, like does it look like a newspaper and do I have to resize my browser every time I visit a new site to get a decent width for reading. As has been said previously in this thread several times, it's best to leave this up to a design czar who will at least make some decisions who will make some people happy. I'm fairly certain it's not possible to create a design that's optimal for all readers in all cases. -glyph ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Fred Drake wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Ned Batchelder n...@nedbatchelder.com wrote: There are bad designers, or more to the point, designers who favor the overall look of the page at the expense of the utility of the page. That doesn't mean all designers are bad, or that design is bad. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I get that. I'm not bad-mouthing actual design, and there are definitely good designers out there. It's unfortunate they're so seriously outnumbered. As they say, the 99% who are lousy designers give the rest a bad name. *wink* My first impression of this page: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/index.html was that the grey side-bar gives the page a somber, perhaps even dreary, look. First impressions count, and I'm afraid that first look didn't work for me. But clicking through onto other pages with more text improved my feelings. A big +1 on the pale green shading of code blocks. The basic design seems good to me. I'd prefer a serif font for blocks of text, while keeping sans serif for the headings, but that's a mild preference. Looking forward to seeing the next iteration. -- Steven ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
In article 4f6b5b33.9020...@pearwood.info, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: ... My first impression of this page: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/index.html was that the grey side-bar gives the page a somber, perhaps even dreary, look. First impressions count, and I'm afraid that first look didn't work for me. But clicking through onto other pages with more text improved my feelings. A big +1 on the pale green shading of code blocks. The basic design seems good to me. I'd prefer a serif font for blocks of text, while keeping sans serif for the headings, but that's a mild preference. Looking forward to seeing the next iteration. I like the overall design, but one thing seems to be missing is an overview of what Python is (hence what the page is about). Naturally we don't need that, but a one-line overview with a link to more information would be helpful. -- Russell ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
In article rowen-edfa17.11495422032...@news.gmane.org, Russell E. Owen ro...@uw.edu wrote: In article 4f6b5b33.9020...@pearwood.info, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: ... My first impression of this page: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/index.html was that the grey side-bar gives the page a somber, perhaps even dreary, look. First impressions count, and I'm afraid that first look didn't work for me. But clicking through onto other pages with more text improved my feelings. A big +1 on the pale green shading of code blocks. The basic design seems good to me. I'd prefer a serif font for blocks of text, while keeping sans serif for the headings, but that's a mild preference. Looking forward to seeing the next iteration. I like the overall design, but one thing seems to be missing is an overview of what Python is (hence what the page is about). Naturally we don't need that, but a one-line overview with a link to more information would be helpful. -- Russell I'm afraid my last sentence was incoherent. I meant to say: Naturally we, as Python users, don't need that; but a one-line overview with a link to more information would be helpful to others who are not familiar with the language. -- Russell ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 22.03.2012 20:05, Russell E. Owen wrote: I like the overall design, but one thing seems to be missing is an overview of what Python is (hence what the page is about). Naturally we don't need that, but a one-line overview with a link to more information would be helpful. -- Russell I'm afraid my last sentence was incoherent. I meant to say: Naturally we, as Python users, don't need that; but a one-line overview with a link to more information would be helpful to others who are not familiar with the language. Hi Russell, note that the page is not supposed to replace python.org, but is just a new styling of the Python documentation, docs.python.org, where it is kind of assumed that you know what Python is... Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 3/22/2012 10:02 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: As they say, the 99% who are lousy designers give the rest a bad name. *wink* :) My first impression of this page: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/index.html was that the grey side-bar gives the page a somber, perhaps even dreary, look. First impressions count, and I'm afraid that first look didn't work for me. The dark sidebar continued down the whole page, and made it clearer why that space was being wasted at the bottom of long pages... I had never noticed, until doing the side-by-side comparison, that it was possible to collapse the TOC sidebar, but this seems to be true only in the old layout. After looking at both a while, my suggestions would be: 1. Preserve the collapsability of the TOC, but possible enhance its recognizability with an X in the upper right of the TOC sidebar, as well as the in the middle. 2. Make the header fixed, so that the bread crumb trail at the top is available even after scrolling way down a long page. 3. Make the sidebar separately scrollable, so that it stays visible when scrolling down in the text. This would make it much easier to jump from section to section, if the TOC didn't get lost in the process. I have no particular preferences for colors or background colors, as long as they are reasonably legible. I do have a preference for serif fonts, especially if the font gets small. Can anyone point me to any legibility studies that show any font being more legible, more easily readable, than Times Roman? (And yes, I know a lot of people that dislike Times Roman, and none of them ever have.) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Glenn Linderman v+pyt...@g.nevcal.com wrote: 3. Make the sidebar separately scrollable, so that it stays visible when scrolling down in the text. This would make it much easier to jump from section to section, if the TOC didn't get lost in the process. -1. The downside of separate scrolling is that you lose the ability to scroll-wheel the main docs if your mouse is over the TOC. I'd rather it stay as a single page, so it doesn't matter where my pointer is when I scroll. But I realise I'm bikeshedding this a bit. Bottom line: I'll use Python, and docs.python.org, regardless of the design and layout... so I'll let the expert(s) decide this one. ChrisA ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Georg, please start a new thread when you have a new design for review. I'm muting this one... -- --Guido van Rossum (python.org/~guido) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Fri, 23 Mar 2012 07:57:18 +1100, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Glenn Linderman v+pyt...@g.nevcal.com wrote: 3. Make the sidebar separately scrollable, so that it stays visible when scrolling down in the text. This would make it much easier to jump from section to section, if the TOC didn't get lost in the process. -1. The downside of separate scrolling is that you lose the ability to scroll-wheel the main docs if your mouse is over the TOC. I'd rather it stay as a single page, so it doesn't matter where my pointer is when I scroll. I agree, and I don't use a mousewheel much. I use pentadactyl, and in that case sometimes the keyboard focus ends up in the TOC and then the scrolling keys scroll the wrong thing (or appear to do nothing, since such things are generally shorter than my screen...) and I can never remember the key sequence to change the focus, because *most* sites I don't have that problem with. For whatever that's worth :) --David ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Glenn Linderman wrote: After looking at both a while, my suggestions would be: 1. Preserve the collapsability of the TOC, but possible enhance its recognizability with an X in the upper right of the TOC sidebar, as well as the in the middle. 2. Make the header fixed, so that the bread crumb trail at the top is available even after scrolling way down a long page. 3. Make the sidebar separately scrollable, so that it stays visible when scrolling down in the text. This would make it much easier to jump from section to section, if the TOC didn't get lost in the process. +1 +1 and, of course, +1 Having to go clear back to the top is a pain, and I never knew `til now that the sidebar was collapsible. ~Ethan~ ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Wiadomość napisana przez Ethan Furman w dniu 22 mar 2012, o godz. 22:18: Glenn Linderman wrote: After looking at both a while, my suggestions would be: 1. Preserve the collapsability of the TOC, but possible enhance its recognizability with an X in the upper right of the TOC sidebar, as well as the in the middle. 2. Make the header fixed, so that the bread crumb trail at the top is available even after scrolling way down a long page. 3. Make the sidebar separately scrollable, so that it stays visible when scrolling down in the text. This would make it much easier to jump from section to section, if the TOC didn't get lost in the process. +1 +1 and, of course, +1 Something like that: http://packages.python.org/lck.django/lck.django.tags.models.html ? (breadcrumbs are at the bottom) -- Best regards, Łukasz Langa Senior Systems Architecture Engineer IT Infrastructure Department Grupa Allegro Sp. z o.o. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Can we please get rid of the sidebar, or at least provide a way of turning it off? I don't think it's anywhere near useful enough to be worth the space it takes up. You can only use it when you're scrolled to the top of the page, otherwise it's just a useless empty space. Also, I often want to put the documentation side by side with the code I'm working on, and having about a quarter to a third of the horizontal space taken up with junk makes that much more awkward than it needs to be. A table of contents as a separate page is a lot more usable for me. I can keep it open in a browser tab and switch to it when I want to look at it. Most of the time I don't want to look at it and don't want it taking up space on the page. Also I agree about the grey text being suboptimal. Deliberately throwing away contrast, especially for the main body text, is insane. -- Greg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote: Can we please get rid of the sidebar, or at least provide a way of turning it off? I don't think it's anywhere near useful enough to be worth the space it takes up. +1. It seems to mostly duplicate the headline next/previous buttons already duplicated in the footer, it doesn't give you the whole TOC, and the whole TOC already present in many nodes. The Search bar is a standard feature of most headers (and sometimes footers), and I like the Report a Bug link because it confirms to the reader that Python developers actually care what they (readers) think. I guess there is enough room for both of those in the header even after subtractiing the horizontal space for the sidebar. A table of contents as a separate page is a lot more usable for me. I agree, but with emphasis on the *for me* part. I suspect this is a personal preference. Also I agree about the grey text being suboptimal. +1 for black text or a perceptibly darker grey. Deliberately throwing away contrast, especially for the main body text, is insane. It does *look* nice, though. Overall, very nice job, Georg! ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 21.03.2012 00:17, R. David Murray wrote: On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 23:38:53 +0100, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Hi all, recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme, especially as so many other projects use it. I decided to play around with something clean this time, and this is the result: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/ The font looks better in my browser, but otherwise I prefer the current style. The biggest thing I don't like about the new style is the fact that the content is not set off from the chrome by shading. Having it shaded makes it easier for my eye to ignore it and just focus on the content. Not sure what the unshaded chrome is -- only the header bar, since the sidebar is shaded already? Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 21.03.2012 01:57, Raymond Hettinger wrote: On Mar 20, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net mailto:g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: Hi all, recently I've grown a bit tired of seeing our default Sphinx theme, especially as so many other projects use it. I decided to play around with something clean this time, and this is the result: http://www.python.org/~gbrandl/build/html/ Not enough colours, and/or not enough visual cues for page structure. cheers Antoine. Like Antoine, I'm having a hard time navigating the page. For me, the current theme is *much* better. OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can come up with a better compromise. Georg ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can come up with a better compromise. Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read. Cheers, Dirkjan ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Turn your monitor portrait or make the window smaller :) ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 21/03/2012 08:25, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandlg.bra...@gmx.net wrote: OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can come up with a better compromise. Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read. I realise this is bikeshedding by now, but FWIW, please don't. If people want shorter lines, they can narrow their browser, without forcing that preference on the rest of us. Cheers, Dirkjan ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/tartley%40tartley.com -- Jonathan Hartleytart...@tartley.comhttp://tartley.com Made of meat. +44 7737 062 225 twitter/skype: tartley ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 09:33:13AM +, Jonathan Hartley wrote: On 21/03/2012 08:25, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandlg.bra...@gmx.net wrote: OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can come up with a better compromise. Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read. I realise this is bikeshedding by now, but FWIW, please don't. If people want shorter lines, they can narrow their browser, without forcing that preference on the rest of us. Seconded. My display is 1920x1200 but I use very large fonts and I'm satisfied with line lengths. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttp://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
Dirkjan Ochtman dirk...@ochtman.nl writes: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandl g.bra...@gmx.net wrote: OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can come up with a better compromise. Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read. −1. Please, web designers, don't presume to know what width the viewer wants. We can change the window size if that's what we want. -- \ “I hope some animal never bores a hole in my head and lays its | `\ eggs in my brain, because later you might think you're having a | _o__) good idea but it's just eggs hatching.” —Jack Handey | Ben Finney ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:39:41 -0400 Terry Reedy tjre...@udel.edu wrote: On 3/20/2012 6:38 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: The current green on the front page is too heavy. Green? hmm... you mean blue, right? :) Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 21:58:57 -0400 Ned Batchelder n...@nedbatchelder.com wrote: On 3/20/2012 6:38 PM, Georg Brandl wrote: Let me know what you think, or play around and send some improvements. (The collapsible sidebar is not adapted to it yet, but will definitely be integrated before I consider applying a new theme to the real docs.) Not to add to the chorus of tweakers, but if I could change just one thing about the current theme, it would be to remove full justification of the text. Ow, I hate non-justified text myself :( Bikeshedding Antoine. ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Python-Dev] Playing with a new theme for the docs
On 21/03/2012 09:33, Jonathan Hartley wrote: On 21/03/2012 08:25, Dirkjan Ochtman wrote: On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 07:00, Georg Brandlg.bra...@gmx.net wrote: OK, that seems to be the main point people make... let me see if I can come up with a better compromise. Would it be possible to limit the width of the page? On my 1920px monitor, the lines get awfully long, making them harder to read. I realise this is bikeshedding by now, but FWIW, please don't. If people want shorter lines, they can narrow their browser, without forcing that preference on the rest of us. + sys.maxint Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Python-Dev mailing list Python-Dev@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-dev Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com
