Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
Le lundi 26 mai 2014 01:09:31 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit : On 25/05/2014 23:22, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us declaimed the following: On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D 1.5 I could live with. :( Surely the company would count as cruel and unusual punishment? company... Or emergency rations? I suspect that chewing razor blades would be preferable to listening to the permanent rant about what's wrong with the FSR. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. === === It's just a mathematical absurdity. (No problems, to explain this to some other people, who are agreeing). jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
Le dimanche 25 mai 2014 02:27:11 UTC+2, Terry Reedy a écrit : On 5/24/2014 3:49 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Few people have Python 3 as an objective. What I'm saying is that if Python 3 had something everybody wants and nothing else provides, the people will come, even the legacy libraries will be ported then. I cannot think of anything beyond the core that 'everybody' wants. However, Python 3.3 has unicode that works for all characters on all platforms, and some people want that. Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy. Voilà. Nothing either good or bad. jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward - suds Python 3
Hi Roy. On 24.5.2014. 1:57, Roy Smith wrote: You need 19 projects to transition to Python 3. Of those 19 projects, 17 have no direct dependencies blocking their transition: [...snipped...] suds That's a big list. A few of those we could probably work around or replace with a different module without too much pain. But, between gevent, boto, fabric, and suds, any idea of migrating is a total non-starter for us. I imagine they're all working on ports, but I'll check back in a year and see how things stand. FYI, the suds-jurko fork works on Python 3. And since I'm not aware of any other actively maintained fork, should I find more free time in the future I might rename it to suds and try to convert it to a formal successor to suds. Hope this helps. Best regards, Jurko Gospodnetić -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
Roy Smith, 24.05.2014 01:57: I installed and ran caniusepython3. It tells me: Finding and checking dependencies ... [WARNING] rpclib not found You need 19 projects to transition to Python 3. Of those 19 projects, 17 have no direct dependencies blocking their transition: beanstalkc dateglob diamond django-multi-sessions django-timedeltafield dnspython ecks fabric gevent (which is blocking grequests) hash_ring httmock jellyfish boto (which is blocking mrjob) paste pyephem python-cjson suds That's a big list. A few of those we could probably work around or replace with a different module without too much pain. But, between gevent, boto, fabric, and suds, any idea of migrating is a total non-starter for us. I imagine they're all working on ports, but I'll check back in a year and see how things stand. Ubuntu provides a (partial) Py3 port of boto. And I don't really see why you would consider fabric a dependency that keeps you from switching to Py3. In many cases, you can just keep running it in Py2 as you did before. Taking a closer look at the big list that caniusepython3 spits out will usually make it shrink to a manageable size. Meaning, the blind size of that list is not an excuse for anything. Stefan -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy. Voilà. Nothing either good or bad. I thought this was a moderated list. What exactly are the moderators doing? -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 1:21 AM, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote: On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy. Voilà. Nothing either good or bad. I thought this was a moderated list. What exactly are the moderators doing? It's not a moderated list. We just collectively ignore the (few) people who aren't saying anything worth reading. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 25/05/2014 16:21, Ethan Furman wrote: On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy. Voilà. Nothing either good or bad. I thought this was a moderated list. What exactly are the moderators doing? -- ~Ethan~ I don't think the list is moderated. I do think this guy has had thirty strikes rather than three, so isn't it time he was finally given out? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On Sunday, May 25, 2014 8:51:18 PM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote: On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, jmf wrote: Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy. Voil�. Nothing either good or bad. I thought this was a moderated list. What exactly are the moderators doing? Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
In article mailman.10285.1401009964.18130.python-l...@python.org, Stefan Behnel stefan...@behnel.de wrote: Ubuntu provides a (partial) Py3 port of boto. As long as the part that's ported includes all the bits of boto we currently need, plus all the bits of boto we haven't yet discovered we need, but will sometime in the future, we're good :-) And I don't really see why you would consider fabric a dependency that keeps you from switching to Py3. In many cases, you can just keep running it in Py2 as you did before. In theory, that's possible. In practice, it would mean having to maintain two different versions of Python, and test everything against both. That adds a lot of complexity, for very little value. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On Sun, 25 May 2014 10:38:42 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote: On Sunday, May 25, 2014 8:51:18 PM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote: On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, jmf wrote: Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy. Voil�. Nothing either good or bad. I thought this was a moderated list. What exactly are the moderators doing? Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D Nope, it's you. Ethan's post is fine. He correctly quotes JMF stating Voilà (that's LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE), and Ethan's post correctly gives an encoding header: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed (although, boo to Thunderbird for using a legacy encoding instead of UTF-8). So his post is fine. Whatever the problem is, it's at your end. -- Steven D'Aprano http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 2014-05-25 18:17, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014 10:38:42 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D Nope, it's you. Ethan's post is fine. He correctly quotes JMF stating Voilà (that's LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE), and Ethan's post correctly gives an encoding header: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed I corroborate Steven's findings, that Ethan's post was correctly encoded displayed. (although, boo to Thunderbird for using a legacy encoding instead of UTF-8). So his post is fine. Whatever the problem is, it's at your end. Thunderbird does offer the ability to change default character encodings (Edit - Preferences - Display - Formatting tab - Advanced...) for sending and receiving, but you have to go out of your way to change them to something like UTF-8. On the same preferences screen TB provides the option to when possible, use the default character encoding in replies. -tkc -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D 1.5 I could live with. :( Surely the company would count as cruel and unusual punishment? -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 25/05/2014 19:34, Ethan Furman wrote: On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D 1.5 I could live with. :( Surely the company would count as cruel and unusual punishment? -- ~Ethan~ The latter is definitely true, but does being king make up for it, on the grounds that he's clearly blind? :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 05/25/2014 11:56 AM, Tim Chase wrote: Thunderbird does offer the ability to change default character encodings (Edit - Preferences - Display - Formatting tab - Advanced...) for sending and receiving, but you have to go out of your way to change them to something like UTF-8. On the same preferences screen TB provides the option to when possible, use the default character encoding in replies. Thanks, fixed. :) -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 25/05/2014 23:22, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us declaimed the following: On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D 1.5 I could live with. :( Surely the company would count as cruel and unusual punishment? company... Or emergency rations? I suspect that chewing razor blades would be preferable to listening to the permanent rant about what's wrong with the FSR. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wlfr...@ix.netcom.com wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us declaimed the following: On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D 1.5 I could live with. :( Surely the company would count as cruel and unusual punishment? company... Or emergency rations? Unfortunately not as effective as these guys: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46017 ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 05/25/2014 03:22 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us declaimed the following: On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voilà. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D 1.5 I could live with. :( Surely the company would count as cruel and unusual punishment? company... Or emergency rations? Well, the thought had crossed my mind... I guess the deciding factor would have to be if I had any ketchup. -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 5/25/2014 6:20 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: the mailing list and gmane group may have some spam filters in place but no real moderation. They *do* have spam, structure, and source filters. Please do not mis-inform people that they post most anything to python-list without consequence. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On Sunday 25 May 2014 18:22:11 Dennis Lee Bieber did opine And Gene did reply: On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us declaimed the following: On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote: Your unicode is mojibaked Ethan! Voilï؟½. You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D 1.5 I could live with. :( Surely the company would count as cruel and unusual punishment? company... Or emergency rations? Humm, now thats a thought... Cheers, Gene Heskett -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Genes Web page http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene US V Castleman, SCOTUS, Mar 2014 is grounds for Impeaching SCOTUS -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
Le vendredi 23 mai 2014 22:16:10 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit : An article by Brett Cannon that I thought might be of interest http://nothingbutsnark.svbtle.com/my-view-on-the-current-state-of-python-3 -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com = = Quote: And with Python 3.4 I really have not heard anyone complain that they wouldn't like to use Python 3 instead of Python 2. Or the devs do not wish to listen. Python 3 will never work. jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 24/05/2014 08:13, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Le vendredi 23 mai 2014 22:16:10 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit : An article by Brett Cannon that I thought might be of interest http://nothingbutsnark.svbtle.com/my-view-on-the-current-state-of-python-3 -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com = = Quote: And with Python 3.4 I really have not heard anyone complain that they wouldn't like to use Python 3 instead of Python 2. Or the devs do not wish to listen. Python 3 will never work. It works for me. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
blindanagram no...@nowhere.net: Quote: And with Python 3.4 I really have not heard anyone complain that they wouldn't like to use Python 3 instead of Python 2. Or the devs do not wish to listen. Python 3 will never work. It works for me. Instead of focusing on bringing legacy libraries to Python3 (for which there never seems to be a critical need), Python3 needs a brand new killer module/application/library that is only available on Python3. Asyncio is a baby step in that direction. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On Saturday, May 24, 2014 3:29:01 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Instead of focusing on bringing legacy libraries to Python3 (for which there never seems to be a critical need), Python3 needs a brand new killer module/application/library that is only available on Python3. I think those times are over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_tail Asyncio is a baby step in that direction. No issue with that Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 2014-05-24, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Python 3 will never work. Neither will color TV. All that phase detection stuff and that shadow-mask thing? And airplanes? Bah! Completely ridiculous. -- Grant -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote: blindanagram no...@nowhere.net: Instead of focusing on bringing legacy libraries to Python3 (for which there never seems to be a critical need), Python3 needs a brand new killer module/application/library that is only available on Python3. Asyncio is a baby step in that direction. Yikes! Backwards incompatibility is a poor excuse for NIH syndrome. Don't reinvent the wheel, please. If there's an existing implementation of a thing, that can save you a lot of work. Even if it ties you to Python 2, that's worth it, most of the time. If you want to migrate to Python 3, help that library forward, rather than trying to make some bespoke replacement you think will be a killer app. -- Devin -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
Sent from my iPhone On May 24, 2014, at 7:35, blindanagram no...@nowhere.net wrote: On 24/05/2014 08:13, wxjmfa...@gmail.com wrote: Le vendredi 23 mai 2014 22:16:10 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit : An article by Brett Cannon that I thought might be of interest http://nothingbutsnark.svbtle.com/my-view-on-the-current-state-of-python-3 -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com = = Quote: And with Python 3.4 I really have not heard anyone complain that they wouldn't like to use Python 3 instead of Python 2. Or the devs do not wish to listen. Python 3 will never work. It works for me. Works for me too. I do python3 exclusively. If the library/tool I need is python 2 only, I figure it's obvious it's in maintenance mode only and find something else. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 05/24/2014 09:03 AM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote: On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Instead of focusing on bringing legacy libraries to Python3 (for which there never seems to be a critical need), Python3 needs a brand new killer module/application/library that is only available on Python3. Yikes! Backwards incompatibility is a poor excuse for NIH syndrome. Don't reinvent the wheel, please. If there's an existing implementation of a thing, that can save you a lot of work. Even if it ties you to Python 2, that's worth it, most of the time. If you want to migrate to Python 3, help that library forward, rather than trying to make some bespoke replacement you think will be a killer app. +1 -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
Devin Jeanpierre, 24.05.2014 18:03: On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: blindanagram: Instead of focusing on bringing legacy libraries to Python3 (for which there never seems to be a critical need), Python3 needs a brand new killer module/application/library that is only available on Python3. Asyncio is a baby step in that direction. Yikes! Backwards incompatibility is a poor excuse for NIH syndrome. Don't reinvent the wheel, please. If there's an existing implementation of a thing, that can save you a lot of work. Even if it ties you to Python 2, that's worth it, most of the time. If you want to migrate to Python 3, help that library forward, rather than trying to make some bespoke replacement you think will be a killer app. http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog69.html There might still be something that doesn't exist yet, and if you start working on that, going with Py3 is certainly the right way. For everything that's there already, however, reusing working, tested code is way better. And making it work in Py3. Stefan -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
Devin Jeanpierre jeanpierr...@gmail.com: If you want to migrate to Python 3, help that library forward, rather than trying to make some bespoke replacement you think will be a killer app. Few people have Python 3 as an objective. What I'm saying is that if Python 3 had something everybody wants and nothing else provides, the people will come, even the legacy libraries will be ported then. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 24/05/2014 20:49, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Devin Jeanpierre jeanpierr...@gmail.com: If you want to migrate to Python 3, help that library forward, rather than trying to make some bespoke replacement you think will be a killer app. Few people have Python 3 as an objective. What I'm saying is that if Python 3 had something everybody wants and nothing else provides, the people will come, even the legacy libraries will be ported then. Legacy libraries are being ported, as shown by the green on the Python Wall of Superpowers here https://python3wos.appspot.com/ (remember this used to be called the Python Wall of Shame, or something like that). What makes you think that they're not being ported? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 5/24/2014 3:49 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Few people have Python 3 as an objective. What I'm saying is that if Python 3 had something everybody wants and nothing else provides, the people will come, even the legacy libraries will be ported then. I cannot think of anything beyond the core that 'everybody' wants. However, Python 3.3 has unicode that works for all characters on all platforms, and some people want that. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
In article mailman.10254.1400876180.18130.python-l...@python.org, Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: An article by Brett Cannon that I thought might be of interest http://nothingbutsnark.svbtle.com/my-view-on-the-current-state-of-python-3 Thanks for the pointer. I installed and ran caniusepython3. It tells me: Finding and checking dependencies ... [WARNING] rpclib not found You need 19 projects to transition to Python 3. Of those 19 projects, 17 have no direct dependencies blocking their transition: beanstalkc dateglob diamond django-multi-sessions django-timedeltafield dnspython ecks fabric gevent (which is blocking grequests) hash_ring httmock jellyfish boto (which is blocking mrjob) paste pyephem python-cjson suds That's a big list. A few of those we could probably work around or replace with a different module without too much pain. But, between gevent, boto, fabric, and suds, any idea of migrating is a total non-starter for us. I imagine they're all working on ports, but I'll check back in a year and see how things stand. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
On 05/23/2014 04:57 PM, Roy Smith wrote: Thanks for the pointer. I installed and ran caniusepython3. It tells me: [snip] That's a big list. A few of those we could probably work around or replace with a different module without too much pain. But, between gevent, boto, fabric, and suds, any idea of migrating is a total non-starter for us. I imagine they're all working on ports, but I'll check back in a year and see how things stand. Don't imagine. Send 'em an email! Let them know there is one more user who'd like a Python 3 port. -- ~Ethan~ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward
In article mailman.10260.1400892736.18130.python-l...@python.org, Ethan Furman et...@stoneleaf.us wrote: On 05/23/2014 04:57 PM, Roy Smith wrote: Thanks for the pointer. I installed and ran caniusepython3. It tells me: [snip] That's a big list. A few of those we could probably work around or replace with a different module without too much pain. But, between gevent, boto, fabric, and suds, any idea of migrating is a total non-starter for us. I imagine they're all working on ports, but I'll check back in a year and see how things stand. Don't imagine. Send 'em an email! Let them know there is one more user who'd like a Python 3 port. But, you're assuming I want that. I don't. What I have now works. I'm not trying to be difficult here. I'm just looking at all the things I could be doing with my time that will improve my product and/or help grow the business. Transition to Python 3 isn't even on the list. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
