Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Bob Spelten wrote:
>> But as Marcel has pointed out, the source of the problem may still be
>> there.
> 1) I ran the test again from a freshly unzipped QLE update and disabled my
> default qpc.ini.

Wolfgang has dug a bit further and it seems to be an issue in the
screen driver. I will investigate further when I find the time.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Dilwyn Jones]

The Qlib_run_336hpr error had not happened before (what is hpr anyway?).
The Cascade_rc error has happened before but mostly not (?).

hpr is the initials of Hans-Peter Recktenwald.

I * think * this is a patched version of Qlib 3.36, which corrects and 
enhances a few things - more information at 
http://phpr.tripod.com/e-qhpbits.html#qlr


Dilwyn 




-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4545/11924 - Release Date: 03/30/16

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Thu, 24 Mar 2016 20:03:59 +0100 schreef Urs Koenig (QL) :


(...)
As written and showed in my videos, disabling QDT would help, but this is
not the solution because QDT is nice to have it loaded.

Changing the position of QPAC2 Files does also help as does changing of  
the

screen resolution.

But as Marcel has pointed out, the source of the problem may still be  
there.


1) I ran the test again from a freshly unzipped QLE update and disabled my  
default qpc.ini.
The first run reported a "not found" on line 11170 (Qlib_run_336hpr), I  
typed "continue" and the boot finished complete. Opening Files (Alt-F) and  
changing to win1_ did NOT freeze SMSQ/E.


2) I killed the QPC job and then started it again.
This time no error on the boot, all went well. Opening Files and changing  
to win1_ frooze even before the win1_ listing was produced!


3) Running SMSQm from the QLE directory next, gave an error on the  
"Cascade_rc" but finished without my intervention although the QDT buttons  
were never placed.
Opening Files (Alt-F) and changing to win1_ frooze SMSQ/E but after the  
win1_ list was produced.


The Qlib_run_336hpr error had not happened before (what is hpr anyway?).
The Cascade_rc error has happened before but mostly not (?).

Bob

--
The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.upc.nl/b.spelten/ql/
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Per wrote:  
> Urs, I get the freeze if I boot the system from a USB memory stick with
the
> QLE distribution, but only with SMSQmulator (as if I use QPC2, it takes
its
> configuration from my installed configuration.) However, if I use my own
> QPC2 installation (4.02, w SMSQ/E 3.24) and boot from QLE.win, the freeze
> doesnt occur. The same if I use my own SMSQmulator installation and boot
> from QLE.win: No freeze.
That's what I expected and what I'm also experiencing. On systems with a
slight different configuration of QPC2 and SMSQmulator (e.g. screen setting)
this freeze does not happen even if I use this QLE.win and do exactly the
same steps.

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Derek Stewart wrote:
> I have tried to reproduce your failures on QPC2 and SMSQmulator8, I can
> report that on my Fujitsu H700 Core i7 620 laptop with 4Gb ram running
> Ubuntu 15.10, I can not reproduce the freezing.
Did you try it with the configuration of QPC2 and SMSQmulator supplied in the 
THE_DISTRIBUTION_qle.ZIP?
Using your configuration may give a change to the scenario which may result in 
a non freeze.

> Can you try your tests using a Linux system running QPC2 under Wine. I
> would think this will not fail.
I have a CentOS v6.7 at hand at work. Will give it a try next week. My guess is 
that it will also fail.

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Ralf Reköndt wrote:
> as usual, REM out one Toolkit after another and try the same procedure.
I've been through this already. At least partly. There are extensions which
are essential.

As written and showed in my videos, disabling QDT would help, but this is
not the solution because QDT is nice to have it loaded.

Changing the position of QPAC2 Files does also help as does changing of the
screen resolution.

But as Marcel has pointed out, the source of the problem may still be there.

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Bob Spelten wrote
> I repeated your process to the letter with SMSQ/m (8217) and QPC2
> (4.02/3.22) and an unchanged copy QLE.win from the Nov.2015 update. Both
> did NOT freeze on access to WIN1_.
It is essential that you use the complete QL/E, not only the QLE.win.
Especially the screen settings (e.g. resolution, colour depth) are
important. QPAC2 Files must popup itself at exactly the position with
exactly the number of files to display like in my scenario. Otherwise the
system may not freeze. I did not (yet) found another scenario to Freeze
SMSQ/E with QL/E.

> I selected and Viewed the Boot file from Files using only the keyboard. No
> problems.
The freeze comes after the content of WIN1_ are being displayed. When you're
able to view a file then the scenario was not 100% equal.

> My laptop is already in its seventh year with a conventional SATA HDD
> running W$7.
Nothing to complain about if it's at least a Core2Duo with at least 2GB RAM.
:-)

> Yours I suspect, is running W$10 from an SSD. Could that be an issue?
Win7 on my year 2007 (32-bit) and 2011 (64-bit) notebooks, both with SSD.
No.

> > I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze case.
> > Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3
> and
> > 4) and you never get the freeze.
> >
> > My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the
> > content of the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position
> > where QPAC2 Files is positioned in above mentioned scenario.
> >
> So you suggest to write something to WIN1_ before opening Files?
> That's something my normal Boot already does. A list of actually loaded
> extensions is generated and saved before I have time to do anything
useful.
> That is the beauty / problem with SMSQ/E, everybody has a completely
> different Boot.
You did misinterpret/misunderstand this. Just save a file (e.g.
WIN1_boot_bak) ONCE. Then reboot and try my scenario. QPAC2 Files will not
fail anymore. I think it's because displaying the content of the ROOT of
WIN1_ is then slightly different (it has 1 file more in the ROOT directory)
and the failure/freeze is not happening here anymore. At least not at this
stage.

> > Enjoy the sunny Sunday!
> >
> At the moment it's quite gray here.
> That's why I have a sunny picture of the Scottish Highlands as wallpaper.
Nice!

Enjoy the long Easter weekend.

Urs

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Marcel Kilgus wrote:
> Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver.
> The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection
> and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of them
> could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2 will
crash
> later on without being at fault itself.

There are only a few (less than 20, depending on the host and target
machine) extensions loaded, not a quadrillion. ;-)

I did some more tests earlier this week and can tell you that when you
disable QDT to load (use the S*BASIC PROC QLE_CFG), then with the same
scenario QPAC2 Files and the System will not Freeze at all. 

> Trying to track down these kind of problems is a huge pain, not sure if I
can
> find the time to do so.
That's true. I know those pains from my job.

Yes, cheers,
Urs

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Wolfgang Lenerz wrote:
> I downloaded QLE from your website.
Great. :-)

> used SMSQmulator 8 from that distribution, with the SMSQE that came with
> it.
It is essential that the configuration of the QL/E package is used,
especially the screen settings. One needs to make sure that local/personal
qpc.ini and SMSQmulator.ini is not in use when testing for the Freeze.

> I followed all of your steps.
Good.

> No Problem here.
Not good. Did you check the steps I did in this video:
QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, SMSQmulator v2.12) freezes!
http://youtu.be/HZ9jj162UN4


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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[derek]

I was not Windows bashing, I have 2x Windows PC performing scanning and mobile 
phone repairs, 3x laptops with Windows on for other tasks, I mainly use Linux.

I am never sure why one has only use one thing, I tend to use all.

No offence taken.


Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Marcel Kilgus <ql-us...@mail.kilgus.net> 
Date: 22/03/2016  14:37  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing 

Derek Stewart wrote:
> I am sorry for the incorrect conclusions.
>
> I merely said I could not get it to freeze on my system, this is a 
> personal option.
>
> But I did not expect to my comments thrust down my throat.

My apologies, I didn't mean it to be personal. It probably came across
harsher than intended, but remember that this is not my native tongue.
I'm just quite sick of all the Windows bashing in general and I'm
somewhat thin skinned when it comes to people jumping to conclusions
upon incomplete data, which is not terribly unusual around here I must
regrettably say ;) Your's just happened to be the one triggering my
reflexes.

Still, all the best to you, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Derek Stewart wrote:
> I am sorry for the incorrect conclusions.
>
> I merely said I could not get it to freeze on my system, this is a 
> personal option.
>
> But I did not expect to my comments thrust down my throat.

My apologies, I didn't mean it to be personal. It probably came across
harsher than intended, but remember that this is not my native tongue.
I'm just quite sick of all the Windows bashing in general and I'm
somewhat thin skinned when it comes to people jumping to conclusions
upon incomplete data, which is not terribly unusual around here I must
regrettably say ;) Your's just happened to be the one triggering my
reflexes.

Still, all the best to you, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Derek Stewart]

I am sorry for the incorrect conclusions.

I merely said I could not get it to freeze on my system, this is a 
personal option.


But I did not expect to my comments thrust down my throat.

Regards,

Derek

On 22/03/16 13:04, Marcel Kilgus wrote:

Derek Stewart wrote:

The common thing in your You Tube Videos is you are using a Windows
operating System.

If I can not get QPC2 and SMSQmulator to freeze then the fault lies on
the host operating system.


No, no and no. This is a false conclusion. When your choice is "the
bug is in a system used by billions of people and designed by hundreds
of highly paid engineers with the latest security measures currently
available" and "the bug is in a system used by a few hundred people
and programmed by a handful of developers and hobbyists with no
protection whatsoever" then the problem is usually not with the
former.

Once again, SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection and by
the first look this is a memory corruption issue. The problem with
memory corruption is that it's almost impossible to debug and the
program failing is often not the one corrupting the memory. Just
trying to debug the issue often makes it go away (this type of bug
even has a name: "Heisenbug") or makes it manifest in another area.

Just saving a file seems to help mitigate the issue, which could just
mean that it alters the memory layout slightly and thus corrupt a less
obvious or even unused part of memory. Who knows. Timing is also often
a thing, just a millisecond here or there can make a difference.

I'll try to get a stack trace, but I have not much hope that this is
easy to track down.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Derek Stewart wrote:
> The common thing in your You Tube Videos is you are using a Windows
> operating System.
>
> If I can not get QPC2 and SMSQmulator to freeze then the fault lies on
> the host operating system.

No, no and no. This is a false conclusion. When your choice is "the
bug is in a system used by billions of people and designed by hundreds
of highly paid engineers with the latest security measures currently
available" and "the bug is in a system used by a few hundred people
and programmed by a handful of developers and hobbyists with no
protection whatsoever" then the problem is usually not with the
former.

Once again, SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection and by
the first look this is a memory corruption issue. The problem with
memory corruption is that it's almost impossible to debug and the
program failing is often not the one corrupting the memory. Just
trying to debug the issue often makes it go away (this type of bug
even has a name: "Heisenbug") or makes it manifest in another area.

Just saving a file seems to help mitigate the issue, which could just
mean that it alters the memory layout slightly and thus corrupt a less
obvious or even unused part of memory. Who knows. Timing is also often
a thing, just a millisecond here or there can make a difference.

I'll try to get a stack trace, but I have not much hope that this is
easy to track down.

Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[pjwitte]

Urs, I get the freeze if I boot the system from a USB memory stick 
with the QLE distribution, but only with SMSQmulator (as if I use 
QPC2, it takes its configuration from my installed configuration.) 
However, if I use my own QPC2 installation (4.02, w SMSQ/E 3.24) and 
boot from QLE.win, the freeze doesnt occur. The same if I use my own 
SMSQmulator installation and boot from QLE.win: No freeze.


Per

On 20/03/2016 12:54, Urs Koenig (QL) wrote:
<>

As it may be known I'm maintaining QL/E - a pre-configured and ready to go
QL environment (applications, desktops, games, tools, utilities) using the
latest versions of the virtual QL machines (aka emulators) QPC2 and
SMSQmulator and the Operating System SMSQ/E - since 2002. Since 2014 QL/E is
part of THE DISTRIBUTION. Core of QL/E is a "QXL.WIN" file named QLE.win (a
virtual WINchester hard-drives in QXL format). Last public release is v3.11
from Nov 2nd 2015. This version is fine-tuned for use with QPC2, SMSQmulator
and QXL. Download link:
http://www.sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE

For a couple of months now (the winter) I was busy adapting QL/E for other
QL compatible platforms running under QDOS/Minerva, such as systems which
include the emulators Q-emuLator, uQLx (Raspberry Pi) plus also real
hardware like MIST (QL core with QL-SD support) and the original Sinclair QL
with QL-SD. I'm almost ready with this and shall release QL/E v3.13 in the
coming weeks if not days.

While testing QL/E on various systems and with various scenarios and use
cases I experienced several FREEZEs of the OS (the QL side, not the host
when running the QL as an emulation). After such freezes the only
possibility to bring the QL/E system back to life was to "power it off" and
restart it. In terms of QPC2 a restart was only successful after a remaining
but invisible QPC2 task has been terminated using the Windows Task manager.

At around the 2016 ZX-TEAM meeting  which took place last weekend in Germany
I experienced multiple freezes of QL/E. OK, I was QLing many many hours
recently. The more hours you run QL(/E) environments the greater is the
chance you experience something. The good thing was that I got the
impression that there's a common pattern to the freezes. I got the
impression that it always was when QPAC2 Files was used.

Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace
and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least
catch the QL/E Freeze case.
Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
scenario:
1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
6. Now the QL/E system freezes!

What I did to isolate the problem relies on QPAC2 or at least is caused by
QPAC2 is:
- Running QL/E with SMSQmulator does also freeze. > It's not a QPC2 problem.
- Running QL/E with other version of SMSQ/E does also freeze. > If it's a
SMSQ/E problem then it's there for some time already.
- Executing DRVCHK and DRVLINK does not find anything wrong with the
QLE.win.
- Copying the entire content of the QLE.win to a freshly formatted QLE.win
and the running QL/E. with this does also freeze. > It's not a problem of
the content/structure of the "QXL.WIN" file
- Using the BOOT file of previous versions of QL/E does not help; such a
modified system does also freeze.
- After inspecting and comparing various QLE.wins (some which have been used
and new files have been created or files have been deleted) I found out that
some of those do not freeze. I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze
case. Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3 and
4) and you never get the freeze.

My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the content of
the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position where QPAC2 Files
is positioned in above mentioned scenario.

Enjoy the sunny Sunday!

QL forever!
Urs

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Derek Stewart]

Hi Urs,

I have tried to reproduce your failures on QPC2 and SMSQmulator8, I can 
report that on my Fujitsu H700 Core i7 620 laptop with 4Gb ram running 
Ubuntu 15.10, I can not reproduce the freezing.


The common thing in your You Tube Videos is you are using a Windows 
operating System.


If I can not get QPC2 and SMSQmulator to freeze then the fault lies on 
the host operating system.


Can you try your tests using a Linux system running QPC2 under Wine. I 
would think this will not fail.


Regards,

Derek

On 21/03/16 19:29, ql wrote:

Hi QLers,

I’m between work and home and did find some time to make some short videos 
about the freeze case. Here they are:

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, QPAC2 v4.02) freezes!

http://youtu.be/wcngRwkvc5w

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, SMSQmulator v2.12) freezes!

http://youtu.be/HZ9jj162UN4

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, QPAC2 v4.02) workaround prevents freeze!

http://youtu.be/D07vYHsvA80

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, QPAC2 v4.02) no freeze when QDT is disabled!

http://youtu.be/b-rc6PZASyc

I’m posting this message with my iPhone and will reply to all your replies when 
I will be using my home PC, but this can be later on this week.

QL forever!

Urs


Von meinem iPhone gesendet


Am 21.03.2016 um 00:59 schrieb Marcel Kilgus :

Urs Koenig (QL) wrote:

Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace
and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least
catch the QL/E Freeze case.
Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
scenario:
1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
6. Now the QL/E system freezes!


Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver.
The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection
and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of
them could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2
will crash later on without being at fault itself.

Trying to track down these kind of problems is a huge pain, not sure
if I can find the time to do so.

Cheers, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[ql]

Hi QLers,

I’m between work and home and did find some time to make some short videos 
about the freeze case. Here they are:

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, QPAC2 v4.02) freezes!

http://youtu.be/wcngRwkvc5w

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, SMSQmulator v2.12) freezes!

http://youtu.be/HZ9jj162UN4

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, QPAC2 v4.02) workaround prevents freeze!

http://youtu.be/D07vYHsvA80

QL/E (v3.11, SMSQ/E v3.22, QPAC2 v4.02) no freeze when QDT is disabled!

http://youtu.be/b-rc6PZASyc

I’m posting this message with my iPhone and will reply to all your replies when 
I will be using my home PC, but this can be later on this week.

QL forever!

Urs


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 21.03.2016 um 00:59 schrieb Marcel Kilgus :
> 
> Urs Koenig (QL) wrote:
>> Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace
>> and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least
>> catch the QL/E Freeze case.
>> Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
>> v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
>> freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
>> scenario:
>> 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
>> 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
>> 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
>> as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
>> displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
>> 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
>> press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
>> 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
>> to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
>> 6. Now the QL/E system freezes!
> 
> Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver.
> The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection
> and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of
> them could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2
> will crash later on without being at fault itself.
> 
> Trying to track down these kind of problems is a huge pain, not sure
> if I can find the time to do so.
> 
> Cheers, Marcel
> 
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Ralf Reköndt]

Ooops, it has taken 30 minutes to put that in the group. Seems, there is 
something wrong.


- Original Message - 
From: "Ralf Reköndt" <ralf.rekoe...@t-online.de>

To: <ql-us...@q-v-d.com>
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing



Urs,

as usual, REM out one Toolkit after another and try the same procedure.

Cheers...Ralf

- Original Message - 
From: "Marcel Kilgus"

Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver.
The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection
and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of
them could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2
will crash later on without being at fault itself.


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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Ralf Reköndt]

Urs,

as usual, REM out one Toolkit after another and try the same procedure.

Cheers...Ralf

- Original Message - 
From: "Marcel Kilgus" 


Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver.
The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection
and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of
them could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2
will crash later on without being at fault itself.


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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 12:54:07 +0100 schreef Urs Koenig (QL) :


(...)

Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
scenario:
1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is  
minimised

as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by  


to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
6. Now the QL/E system freezes!


Urs,
I repeated your process to the letter with SMSQ/m (8217) and QPC2  
(4.02/3.22) and an unchanged copy QLE.win from the Nov.2015 update. Both  
did NOT freeze on access to WIN1_.
I selected and Viewed the Boot file from Files using only the keyboard. No  
problems.


My laptop is already in its seventh year with a conventional SATA HDD  
running W$7.

Yours I suspect, is running W$10 from an SSD. Could that be an issue?


(...)
I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze case.
Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3 and  
4) and you never get the freeze.


My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the content  
of the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position where QPAC2  
Files is positioned in above mentioned scenario.



So you suggest to write something to WIN1_ before opening Files?
That's something my normal Boot already does. A list of actually loaded  
extensions is generated and saved before I have time to do anything useful.
That is the beauty / problem with SMSQ/E, everybody has a completely  
different Boot.



Enjoy the sunny Sunday!


At the moment it's quite gray here.
That's why I have a sunny picture of the Scottish Highlands as wallpaper.

QLE forever!
Bob

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Urs Koenig (QL) wrote:
> Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace
> and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least
> catch the QL/E Freeze case.
> Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
> v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
> freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
> scenario:
> 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
> 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
> 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
> as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
> displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
> 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
> press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
> 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
> to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
> 6. Now the QL/E system freezes!

Okay, I can reproduce it. But the crash happens in the screen driver.
The problem is that SMSQ/E does not have any kind of memory protection
and you're loading a quadrillion extensions at boot-time. Any one of
them could be responsible of corrupting the memory in a way that QPAC2
will crash later on without being at fault itself.

Trying to track down these kind of problems is a huge pain, not sure
if I can find the time to do so.

Cheers, Marcel

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[derek]

Hi,

Is it possible the problem lies with Qpac2.

I have been ytrying to disassemble Qpac2 to try and improve Files. But it is 
quite hard to reverse engineer something like Qpac2.

Since the binary version of Qpac2 is download able,  is it possible for the 
source code to be related under some sort of licence.


Regards

Derek


 Original message 
From: Wolfgang Lenerz <wlen...@free.fr> 
Date: 20/03/2016  16:42  (GMT+00:00) 
To: ql-us...@q-v-d.com 
Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing 

Hi,

I downloaded QLE from your website.

used SMSQmulator 8 from that distribution, with the SMSQE that came with it.

I followed all of your steps.

No Problem here.

> Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
> v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
> freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
> scenario:
> 1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
check
> 2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
check
> 3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
> as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
> displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
no, it's ALT+ >
> 4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
> press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
check
> 5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
> to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
check
> 6. Now the QL/E system freezes!

Nope

Wolfgang
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Urs Koenig (QL)]

Marcel Kilgus wrote:
> > Yesterday I had a similar freeze/crash but I put that down to a fault
> > in the program I am updating.
> > No QPAC2 File access at that moment.
> > So today's QPC2 session started OK but at the time of the crash I was
> > using Files (?).
> 
> There are about a billion ways to crash SMSQ/E, so I wouldn't count on
your
> problems being the same. Personally I never had Files crash on me and even
> then it's more likely that the device driver is at fault, but if somebody
can
> reproduce it I can have a look.

As it may be known I'm maintaining QL/E - a pre-configured and ready to go
QL environment (applications, desktops, games, tools, utilities) using the
latest versions of the virtual QL machines (aka emulators) QPC2 and
SMSQmulator and the Operating System SMSQ/E - since 2002. Since 2014 QL/E is
part of THE DISTRIBUTION. Core of QL/E is a "QXL.WIN" file named QLE.win (a
virtual WINchester hard-drives in QXL format). Last public release is v3.11
from Nov 2nd 2015. This version is fine-tuned for use with QPC2, SMSQmulator
and QXL. Download link:
http://www.sinclairql.net/repository.html#QLE

For a couple of months now (the winter) I was busy adapting QL/E for other
QL compatible platforms running under QDOS/Minerva, such as systems which
include the emulators Q-emuLator, uQLx (Raspberry Pi) plus also real
hardware like MIST (QL core with QL-SD support) and the original Sinclair QL
with QL-SD. I'm almost ready with this and shall release QL/E v3.13 in the
coming weeks if not days.

While testing QL/E on various systems and with various scenarios and use
cases I experienced several FREEZEs of the OS (the QL side, not the host
when running the QL as an emulation). After such freezes the only
possibility to bring the QL/E system back to life was to "power it off" and
restart it. In terms of QPC2 a restart was only successful after a remaining
but invisible QPC2 task has been terminated using the Windows Task manager.

At around the 2016 ZX-TEAM meeting  which took place last weekend in Germany
I experienced multiple freezes of QL/E. OK, I was QLing many many hours
recently. The more hours you run QL(/E) environments the greater is the
chance you experience something. The good thing was that I got the
impression that there's a common pattern to the freezes. I got the
impression that it always was when QPAC2 Files was used.

Because we have a Windows Freeze case at work which is very hard to trace
and analyse (visitors of the ZX-TEAM meeting will know) I wanted to at least
catch the QL/E Freeze case.
Last Thursday I was repeatedly able to reproduce the freeze using my QL/E
v3.13 wip (work-in-progress). I then reduced the steps needed to get the
freeze. In the end I can say you can get the freeze when doing this
scenario:
1. Start QL/E (e.g. start QPC2.exe).
2. From now on do not use the mouse, do not use the mouse pointer.
3. After the BOOT sequence of QL/E is completed (SBASIC job 0 is minimised
as "System" in the button frame, wait until Photo QL has completed
displaying the QL collection photo) press +<\> to pick "System".
4. Now that you see the BOOT process windows in the middle of the screen
press + to pick QPAC2 "Files".
5. Once QPAC2 "Files" is on screen press  then  followed by 
to choose the drive "WIN1_" as the Source Directory.
6. Now the QL/E system freezes!

What I did to isolate the problem relies on QPAC2 or at least is caused by
QPAC2 is:
- Running QL/E with SMSQmulator does also freeze. > It's not a QPC2 problem.
- Running QL/E with other version of SMSQ/E does also freeze. > If it's a
SMSQ/E problem then it's there for some time already.
- Executing DRVCHK and DRVLINK does not find anything wrong with the
QLE.win.
- Copying the entire content of the QLE.win to a freshly formatted QLE.win
and the running QL/E. with this does also freeze. > It's not a problem of
the content/structure of the "QXL.WIN" file
- Using the BOOT file of previous versions of QL/E does not help; such a
modified system does also freeze.
- After inspecting and comparing various QLE.wins (some which have been used
and new files have been created or files have been deleted) I found out that
some of those do not freeze. I then found an easy workaround for the Freeze
case. Perform one time a simple SAVE WIN1_boot_bak (e.g. between steps 3 and
4) and you never get the freeze.

My feeling is that QPAC2 Files has a problem when displaying the content of
the chosen Source Directory WIN1_ at exactly the position where QPAC2 Files
is positioned in above mentioned scenario.

Enjoy the sunny Sunday!

QL forever!
Urs

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Graeme Gregory]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2016, at 10:59 AM, Bob Spelten wrote:
> Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:23:27 +0100 schreef Derek Stewart :
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug?
> >
> W$ is often very busy in the background, not clear to me what with.
> Recently I have noticed sometimes a delay when opening Files before the  
> list is produced.
> Is that W$ putting QPC2 on hold? Who knows.
> 
Thats not a great mystery, the virus checker is hooked into the open
file action!

Graeme
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:23:27 +0100 schreef Derek Stewart :


Hi,

This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug?


W$ is often very busy in the background, not clear to me what with.
Recently I have noticed sometimes a delay when opening Files before the  
list is produced.

Is that W$ putting QPC2 on hold? Who knows.

I have never had a lockup of SMSQ/E since using a Gold Card Version in  
the mid 1990s


That seems a remarkable record. Seems impossible when developing programs,  
so mostly when it happens to me, I can blame my code.


I use Linux and SMSQmulator, QPC2, QEmulator and they have never locked  
out any WIN drives.


I have a fresh Linux machine set up and QPC2 seems even to be faster  
there. But so far it's only been a quick test. Migrating is not something  
I want to do in the middle of a project and it's not so simple when I have  
direct access to most of my data on W$ from QPC2.


Bob

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Derek Stewart]

Hi,

This sounds like a Windows Feature or bug?

I have never had a lockup of SMSQ/E since using a Gold Card Version in 
the mid 1990s


I use Linux and SMSQmulator, QPC2, QEmulator and they have never locked 
out any WIN drives.



Regards,

Derek

On 19/03/16 03:57, Timothy Swenson wrote:

I agree with Wolfgang in that there probably was an outstanding file
lock on the .WIN file.  The file lock would keep other programs from
writing to the .WIN file, but it would allow programs to read from it.
This is why you could copy it and why SMSQmulator said it was read-only.

The reboot cleared the lock and all was well.  The cause of the crash
might be difficult to determine.  Windows is not easy to troubleshoot.
There is no truss or par trace capability built into the OS (at least
not that I am aware of), so you can't look inside a process to see what
is happening.

I remember the old bit:  "The software said to install Windows 95 or
better, so I installed Linux."

Tim Swenson
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Bob Spelten wrote:
> Yesterday I had a similar freeze/crash but I put that down to a fault in
> the program I am updating.
> No QPAC2 File access at that moment.
> So today's QPC2 session started OK but at the time of the crash I was
> using Files (?).

There are about a billion ways to crash SMSQ/E, so I wouldn't count on
your problems being the same. Personally I never had Files crash on me
and even then it's more likely that the device driver is at fault, but
if somebody can reproduce it I can have a look.

Cheers, Marcel



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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Fri, 18 Mar 2016 21:17:33 +0100 schreef pjwitte :

Sorry Urs, Bob, I cannot confirm this. To my mind the Qpac2 "apps" are  
some of the most stable programs written for QDOS and SMSQ/E ;)  
Sometimes stuff just happens, but if it happens a lot Id look elsewhere..


Per


Two crashes in two days is uncommon.
As I said, the first could be my own programming error but has not been  
investigated further.
For the second it may have been a coincidence that QPAC2 was involved and  
I only mentioned this because of Urs's suggestion.

I just hope it's not the start of a pattern.

Bob

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The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.upc.nl/b.spelten/ql/
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Op Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:29:03 +0100 schreef ql :

Just days ago I experienced the same. In my case QPC2 was still in the  
Windows Task Manager. I killed it there and then a fresh start opened  
the QXL.win and properly booted up.


In my case I got the same problem day by day. After investigating it  
looks like there's a bug in QPAC2 Files which causes SMSQ/E to freeze.


Urs


Thanks all for the quick response.

There were no zombies found in Task Manager.
With Total Commander I could copy the .WIN without errors.

Restarting W$7 did restore my .WIN to normal and QPC2 booted as before.
Also the _dbs was accessible again.
Lucky me.

Yesterday I had a similar freeze/crash but I put that down to a fault in  
the program I am updating.

No QPAC2 File access at that moment.
So today's QPC2 session started OK but at the time of the crash I was  
using Files (?).


Bob

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Wolfgang Lenerz]

On 03/18/2016 04:12 PM, Bob Spelten wrote:Hi,

the first thing to do with windowsin these cases is to reboot windows

It sounds as if the file was still marked as opened by another program.

Try copying it to another directory.

HTH

Wolfgang



Hi All,

Today, while working in QPC2 on my W$7 system, SMSQ/E suddenly froze.
No mouse movement, no keys and Sysmon had stopped.
I could kill the QPC2 task with the [x] button but it would not restart
my boot.
QPC2 & SMSQ/E do start but WIN1_ cannot be mounted anymore ("not found").

I then checked this with another QPC2 but the QXL.WIN could not be
mounted with WIN_DRIVE there too. SMSQmulator however, where it's
normally mounted as WIN7_, reports it as "read only" but I can list the
files and view their contents.

In W$7 I can View the .WIN file (Total Commander /View) but when
mounting that directory with DOS_DRIVE in QPC2, viewing the .WIN file
from QPAC2/Files gave an "in use" error.
My other .WIN drives there are OK.

Does anyone know what happened here and how I can fix this?
There was a channel to a BDAS file open on WIN1_ at the time but this
has never been a problem when SuQcess2 crashed in the past. Never lost a
_dbs that way.

Bob


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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Timothy Swenson]

I agree with Wolfgang in that there probably was an outstanding file 
lock on the .WIN file.  The file lock would keep other programs from 
writing to the .WIN file, but it would allow programs to read from it. 
This is why you could copy it and why SMSQmulator said it was read-only.


The reboot cleared the lock and all was well.  The cause of the crash 
might be difficult to determine.  Windows is not easy to troubleshoot. 
There is no truss or par trace capability built into the OS (at least 
not that I am aware of), so you can't look inside a process to see what 
is happening.


I remember the old bit:  "The software said to install Windows 95 or 
better, so I installed Linux."


Tim Swenson
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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[ql]

Just days ago I experienced the same. In my case QPC2 was still in the Windows 
Task Manager. I killed it there and then a fresh start opened the QXL.win and 
properly booted up.

In my case I got the same problem day by day. After investigating it looks like 
there's a bug in QPAC2 Files which causes SMSQ/E to freeze.

Urs

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 18.03.2016 um 16:12 schrieb Bob Spelten :
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Today, while working in QPC2 on my W$7 system, SMSQ/E suddenly froze.
> No mouse movement, no keys and Sysmon had stopped.
> I could kill the QPC2 task with the [x] button but it would not restart my 
> boot.
> QPC2 & SMSQ/E do start but WIN1_ cannot be mounted anymore ("not found").
> 
> I then checked this with another QPC2 but the QXL.WIN could not be mounted 
> with WIN_DRIVE there too. SMSQmulator however, where it's normally mounted as 
> WIN7_, reports it as "read only" but I can list the files and view their 
> contents.
> 
> In W$7 I can View the .WIN file (Total Commander /View) but when mounting 
> that directory with DOS_DRIVE in QPC2, viewing the .WIN file from QPAC2/Files 
> gave an "in use" error.
> My other .WIN drives there are OK.
> 
> Does anyone know what happened here and how I can fix this?
> There was a channel to a BDAS file open on WIN1_ at the time but this has 
> never been a problem when SuQcess2 crashed in the past. Never lost a _dbs 
> that way.
> 
> Bob
> 
> -- 
> The BSJR QL software site at: http://members.upc.nl/b.spelten/ql/
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[Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Bob Spelten]

Hi All,

Today, while working in QPC2 on my W$7 system, SMSQ/E suddenly froze.
No mouse movement, no keys and Sysmon had stopped.
I could kill the QPC2 task with the [x] button but it would not restart my  
boot.

QPC2 & SMSQ/E do start but WIN1_ cannot be mounted anymore ("not found").

I then checked this with another QPC2 but the QXL.WIN could not be mounted  
with WIN_DRIVE there too. SMSQmulator however, where it's normally mounted  
as WIN7_, reports it as "read only" but I can list the files and view  
their contents.


In W$7 I can View the .WIN file (Total Commander /View) but when mounting  
that directory with DOS_DRIVE in QPC2, viewing the .WIN file from  
QPAC2/Files gave an "in use" error.

My other .WIN drives there are OK.

Does anyone know what happened here and how I can fix this?
There was a channel to a BDAS file open on WIN1_ at the time but this has  
never been a problem when SuQcess2 crashed in the past. Never lost a _dbs  
that way.


Bob

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Re: [Ql-Users] WIN drive gone missing

[Marcel Kilgus]

Bob Spelten wrote:
> Does anyone know what happened here and how I can fix this?

Difficult to say. First check with task manager if there is a zombie
QPC2 process still hanging around.

Marcel

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